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S13.E11: Week 10: The Final Rose / S13.E12: After the Final Rose

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Maybe Peter should have given her a "friendship" ring or "promise" ring like they used to do back in the day.  I would have cracked up seeing Rachel's face if he had done that.  

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1 hour ago, SnapeCharmer said:

Here's a great article that supports some of what a few of us have been saying:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/those-think-rachel-settled-bachelorette-183015451.html

That article was just shit. There is no evidence that Rachel's race had anything to do with the public's reaction to how things played out. I assume the writer is neither a scientist nor social scientist so saw nothing wrong with forcing the issue of race to explain the negative response of a large, diverse Bachelorette viewership based on pure conjecture.  I, a woman of color, am ready to move on to more pleasant topics and avoid having to look at Bryan. Rachel has made her choice.

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On 8/11/2017 at 9:57 AM, saber5055 said:

Don't these people talk about real life during the FS overnights? When cameras are off? I'd think Rachel and Peter could have hashed out their relationship overnight, that Peter wasn't the one, and Bryan would have been told he was F1. I mean, they have maybe 12 hours alone, so why wouldn't what is suppose to/not suppose to happen on Proposal Day be discussed? Of course, that would STINK for ratings, so I guess I answered my own question. This season, the screwy ATFR show and the resulting controversy is a Fleiss Goldmine. HE is the winner of this season.

Per her interviews, Rachel stated that she told Bryan that she was in love with him during the FS.  She stated that although she told others that she was falling in love or that she loves them, Bryan was the only one to receive the "in love with you".

 If Rachel and Peter's break up scene is any indication,  I believe he told her some of what she wanted to hear so she could keep him during their FS, if she was leaning towards letting Peter go. She seemed very distracted during the earlier part of her FS date with Bryan.  I believed she would have let Peter go instead of Eric if he didn't tell her what she wanted to hear.  I get the feeling that Peter said what ever he said during FS that "messed with (Rachel's) head" is because he didn't want to lose, and he isn't used to losing.

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14 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

Per her interviews, Rachel stated that she told Bryan that she was in love with him during the FS.  She stated that although she told others that she was falling in love or that she loves them, Bryan was the only one to receive the "in love with you".

 If Rachel and Peter's break up scene is any indication,  I believe he told her some of what she wanted to hear so she could keep him during their FS, if she was leaning towards letting Peter go. She seemed very distracted during the earlier part of her FS date with Bryan.  I believed she would have let Peter go instead of Eric if he didn't tell her what she wanted to hear.  I get the feeling that Peter said what ever he said during FS that "messed with (Rachel's) head" is because he didn't want to lose, and he isn't used to losing.

How do you mess with someone's head who has already made up her mind? She said she knew from when Bryan met her parents. There is nothing Peter, who she supposedly did not want, should have been able to say that would sway her or mess with her head, nothing.

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I'm enjoying watching them on sm. They seem to fit each other's personalities. I can't see Peter being anything other than wooden and low energy in those settings, which doesn't fit Rachel at all. I'm just going to assume she was blinded by the pretty and didn't realize she was doing the heavy lifting of making Peter interesting.

Their engagement party was this evening. 

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57 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

I'm enjoying watching them on sm. They seem to fit each other's personalities. I can't see Peter being anything other than wooden and low energy in those settings, which doesn't fit Rachel at all. I'm just going to assume she was blinded by the pretty and didn't realize she was doing the heavy lifting of making Peter interesting.

Their engagement party was this evening. 

I was not a Bryan fan for most of the season, but I was convinced that she was going to pick him after their date in Oslo. However, I like what I've seen on SM and in interviews - Bryan looking so genuine, and Rachel looking so happy,  It made me go back and re-watch some of the season.

Here's what I noticed: 
1. Once I decided that Bryan wasn't the worst person in the world, I could actually pay attention to Rachel's responses to him. She practically swoons every time he makes a declaration. I thought she was going to fall out when he told her that he was in love with her after their Miami HTD. I completely missed that a few weeks ago. 

2. I'm so mad about the finale format. Making Rachel watch the break up was cruel, and then immediately making her speak to Peter on live television was awful. She had no time to collect her thoughts, and now people think she's a horrible person because she had normal reactions to watching someone being so emotionally manipulative on TV. Plus, 40 minutes (not including commercials) on the breakup was WAY too long.

3. After watching the clip of the final rose ceremony, I really feel like Rachel was robbed. Not only was it crazy windy, but had we not spent an hour rehashing Peter we could have seen how sweet the engagement really was. The words she and Bryan exchanged seemed sincere and heart-felt, she also seemed genuinely pleased, and not just with the ring. As a viewer, it was really hard to go back to Rioja after all of the realtime studio drama. I'm pretty sure I was still yelling at the TV during most of the frc. The moment/engagement deserved better. 

Rachel deserved better. 

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Bryan treats her like his future wife. The way she should be treated.  As for the show, I agree that Rachel deserved better. It was too focused on building up and tearing down certain men and Rachel by extension. Instead of focusing on Rachel's journey to finding the right partner. Luckily, she was able to wade through the muck and connect with a good man. One who wanted the same things she did, at the same time.

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4 hours ago, comosedice said:

How do you mess with someone's head who has already made up her mind? She said she knew from when Bryan met her parents. There is nothing Peter, who she supposedly did not want, should have been able to say that would sway her or mess with her head, nothing.

It so hard to explain, but it happens, especially if one is not strong or equipped to avoid those mind games.  Some men know how to play on some women's insecurities.  While I can say that it wouldn't happen to me now, it has happened in my past. From my experience, as I had dated a "Peter" in my 20s for 3 years, I could see how Peter could have done it.  My ex didn't want to formally commit to marriage  but wanted me to move in with him.  After I realized that we were going nowhere, I decided to break things off (several times).  He would tell me what I wanted to hear, and I ended up staying longer than was healthy for me.  Peter's actions actually triggered some emotions in me that I thought I had gotten  over 10 years ago.  I could only imagine how Rachel was caught up in emotions as she mentioned that Peter reminded her of a past relationship.  My ex also told me that I wouldn't find anyone as good as him, and I would be miserable without him.  It was the kind of things my ex said to get in my head.  So when Peter said "mediocre life", I was done with him.  

There were other red flags regarding Peter.  First red flag was him commenting on Rachel leaning into him first when they were kissing ( "you leaned into me but I was going to lean into you"). That was a very peculiar thing to say during an intimate moment. Then one episode, he commented on how much she drank when she was feeling nervous and vulnerable.  He never made eye contact when they were supposed to be having intimate conversations.  Him mentioning that her outfit was the wrong thing to wear in the wind, was side eye worthy as well.  My ex made comments about how inappropriate my attire was and his reasons could be anything  (wind, the type of company, the full moon, etc.) 

He acted as if he were the lead instead of her.  For instance, him having his hometown friends evaluating Rachel as if he had the final say was odd.  That is what the role of the lead, which he is not. While Rachel having to beg him to kiss her is not a red flag per say, it appeared that he was withholding his affections on purpose. Even if he wasn't comfortable making out on camera, he could have showed his affection in various ways when they were alone such as intimate touching.  However, he was all hands in front of the other men during their group dates.

Now, I am not saying that there were ulterior motives to how he presented himself, and he could be genuine for all I know, but I learned to beware of the warning signs with the relationships I had after my ex, so I wouldn't repeat the cycle. From my perspective, I would avoid Peter like the plague.  I don't care how pretty he is.  I truly believe that Rachel was in the same head space that allowed Peter to get into her head.  

Also remember that Rachel's family had reservations about Bryan and was seeing him for the first time since Dallas. She, for the first time, was feeling unsure about Bryan due to family, so her uncertainty about her F1 coupled with her insecurities would certainly make her more vulnerable to Peter getting into her head.

Edited by Earlfor1 · Reason: Punctuation
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28 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

It so hard to explain, but it happens, especially if one is not strong or equipped to avoid those mind games.  Some men know how to play on some women's insecurities.  While I can say that it wouldn't happen to me now, it has happened in my past. From my experience, as I had dated a "Peter" in my 20s for 3 years, I could see how Peter could have done it.  My ex didn't want to formally commit to marriage  but wanted me to move in with him.  After I realized that we were going nowhere, I decided to break things off (several times).  He would tell me what I wanted to hear, and I ended up staying longer than was healthy for me.  Peter's actions actually triggered some emotions in me that I thought I had gotten  over 10 years ago.  I could only imagine how Rachel was caught up in emotions as she mentioned that Peter reminded her of a past relationship.  My ex also told me that I wouldn't find anyone as good as him, and I would be miserable without him.  It was the kind of things my ex said to get in my head.  So when Peter said "mediocre life", I was done with him.  

There were other red flags regarding Peter.  First red flag was him commenting on Rachel leaning into him first when they were kissing ( "you leaned into me but I was going to lean into you"). That was a very peculiar thing to say during an intimate moment. Then one episode, he commented on how much she drank when she was feeling nervous and vulnerable.  He never made eye contact when they were supposed to be having intimate conversations.  Him mentioning that her outfit was the wrong thing to wear in the wind, was side eye worthy as well.  My ex made comments about how inappropriate my attire was and his reasons could be anything  (wind, the type of company, the full moon, etc.) 

He acted as if he were the lead instead of her.  For instance, him having his hometown friends evaluating Rachel as if he had the final say was odd.  That is what the role of the lead, which he is not. While Rachel having to beg him to kiss her is not a red flag per say, it appeared that he was withholding his affections on purpose. Even if he wasn't comfortable making out on camera, he could have showed his affection in various ways when they were alone such as intimate touching.  However, he was all hands in front of the other men during their group dates.

Now, I am not saying that there were ulterior motives to how he presented himself, and he could be genuine for all I know, but I learned to beware of the warning signs with the relationships I had after my ex, so I wouldn't repeat the cycle. From my perspective, I would avoid Peter like the plague.  I don't care how pretty he is.  I truly believe that Rachel was in the same head space that allowed Peter to get into her head.  

Also remember that Rachel's family had reservations about Bryan and was seeing him for the first time since Dallas. She, for the first time, was feeling unsure about Bryan due to family, so her uncertainty about her F1 coupled with her insecurities would certainly make her more vulnerable to Peter getting into her head.

I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for sharing your story. Your observations are things that I noticed as well: the little criticisms he made when they were together and yes, he was very handsy with her around the other guys. I wonder why? <smirks> It's great to see that others noticed these things too. Sometimes  I think I'm imagining stuff when I writing some of my observations about this show, because the reactions are so strong. The only thing I part ways with you on is that IMO, his actions were very deliberate, but what you wrote is definitely food for thought.

Edited by SnapeCharmer
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4 hours ago, Earlfor1 said:

It so hard to explain, but it happens, especially if one is not strong or equipped to avoid those mind games.  Some men know how to play on some women's insecurities.  While I can say that it wouldn't happen to me now, it has happened in my past. From my experience, as I had dated a "Peter" in my 20s for 3 years, I could see how Peter could have done it.  My ex didn't want to formally commit to marriage  but wanted me to move in with him.  After I realized that we were going nowhere, I decided to break things off (several times).  He would tell me what I wanted to hear, and I ended up staying longer than was healthy for me.  Peter's actions actually triggered some emotions in me that I thought I had gotten  over 10 years ago.  I could only imagine how Rachel was caught up in emotions as she mentioned that Peter reminded her of a past relationship.  My ex also told me that I wouldn't find anyone as good as him, and I would be miserable without him.  It was the kind of things my ex said to get in my head.  So when Peter said "mediocre life", I was done with him.  

There were other red flags regarding Peter.  First red flag was him commenting on Rachel leaning into him first when they were kissing ( "you leaned into me but I was going to lean into you"). That was a very peculiar thing to say during an intimate moment. Then one episode, he commented on how much she drank when she was feeling nervous and vulnerable.  He never made eye contact when they were supposed to be having intimate conversations.  Him mentioning that her outfit was the wrong thing to wear in the wind, was side eye worthy as well.  My ex made comments about how inappropriate my attire was and his reasons could be anything  (wind, the type of company, the full moon, etc.) 

He acted as if he were the lead instead of her.  For instance, him having his hometown friends evaluating Rachel as if he had the final say was odd.  That is what the role of the lead, which he is not. While Rachel having to beg him to kiss her is not a red flag per say, it appeared that he was withholding his affections on purpose. Even if he wasn't comfortable making out on camera, he could have showed his affection in various ways when they were alone such as intimate touching.  However, he was all hands in front of the other men during their group dates.

Now, I am not saying that there were ulterior motives to how he presented himself, and he could be genuine for all I know, but I learned to beware of the warning signs with the relationships I had after my ex, so I wouldn't repeat the cycle. From my perspective, I would avoid Peter like the plague.  I don't care how pretty he is.  I truly believe that Rachel was in the same head space that allowed Peter to get into her head.  

Also remember that Rachel's family had reservations about Bryan and was seeing him for the first time since Dallas. She, for the first time, was feeling unsure about Bryan due to family, so her uncertainty about her F1 coupled with her insecurities would certainly make her more vulnerable to Peter getting into her head.

This is projection. I'm sorry you went through what you did, but you don't know Peter (neither do I) and he is not your ex. I think we should all be cautious when things don't feel right with anyone, but it is also grossly unfair to be using your trauma to judge a complete stranger and make him out to be this manipulative demon. Also, the lead is not the only one choosing a partner, so Peter wanting the people (family and friends) who are important to him to meet the woman who could potentially become his wife is not a bad thing. I don't know how this was twisted to be something awful. I understand why some innocent people get murdered sometimes. It's because the other person is haunted by their past and that's all they see. All you need is the slightest resemblance and you stop being you.

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5 hours ago, Earlfor1 said:

He acted as if he were the lead instead of her.  For instance, him having his hometown friends evaluating Rachel as if he had the final say was odd.  That is what the role of the lead, which he is not. While Rachel having to beg him to kiss her is not a red flag per say, it appeared that he was withholding his affections on purpose. Even if he wasn't comfortable making out on camera, he could have showed his affection in various ways when they were alone such as intimate touching.  However, he was all hands in front of the other men during their group dates.

That bothered me too! I've only watched about 4-5 other bachelor/bachelorette seasons,  but I can't recall ever seeing a hometown date where a contestant excused himself to discuss the bachelorette with his friends and got screen-time for it. There was also nothing remotely interesting about those friends or their conversation with Peter to have warranted that much attention. The camera should have stayed on Rachel and the other girls, not Peter, so I also blame the production crew for that.   

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8 hours ago, Earlfor1 said:

It so hard to explain, but it happens, especially if one is not strong or equipped to avoid those mind games.  Some men know how to play on some women's insecurities.  While I can say that it wouldn't happen to me now, it has happened in my past. From my experience, as I had dated a "Peter" in my 20s for 3 years, I could see how Peter could have done it.  My ex didn't want to formally commit to marriage  but wanted me to move in with him.  After I realized that we were going nowhere, I decided to break things off (several times).  He would tell me what I wanted to hear, and I ended up staying longer than was healthy for me.  Peter's actions actually triggered some emotions in me that I thought I had gotten  over 10 years ago.  I could only imagine how Rachel was caught up in emotions as she mentioned that Peter reminded her of a past relationship.  My ex also told me that I wouldn't find anyone as good as him, and I would be miserable without him.  It was the kind of things my ex said to get in my head.  So when Peter said "mediocre life", I was done with him.  

There were other red flags regarding Peter.  First red flag was him commenting on Rachel leaning into him first when they were kissing ( "you leaned into me but I was going to lean into you"). That was a very peculiar thing to say during an intimate moment. Then one episode, he commented on how much she drank when she was feeling nervous and vulnerable.  He never made eye contact when they were supposed to be having intimate conversations.  Him mentioning that her outfit was the wrong thing to wear in the wind, was side eye worthy as well.  My ex made comments about how inappropriate my attire was and his reasons could be anything  (wind, the type of company, the full moon, etc.) 

He acted as if he were the lead instead of her.  For instance, him having his hometown friends evaluating Rachel as if he had the final say was odd.  That is what the role of the lead, which he is not. While Rachel having to beg him to kiss her is not a red flag per say, it appeared that he was withholding his affections on purpose. Even if he wasn't comfortable making out on camera, he could have showed his affection in various ways when they were alone such as intimate touching.  However, he was all hands in front of the other men during their group dates.

Now, I am not saying that there were ulterior motives to how he presented himself, and he could be genuine for all I know, but I learned to beware of the warning signs with the relationships I had after my ex, so I wouldn't repeat the cycle. From my perspective, I would avoid Peter like the plague.  I don't care how pretty he is.  I truly believe that Rachel was in the same head space that allowed Peter to get into her head.  

Also remember that Rachel's family had reservations about Bryan and was seeing him for the first time since Dallas. She, for the first time, was feeling unsure about Bryan due to family, so her uncertainty about her F1 coupled with her insecurities would certainly make her more vulnerable to Peter getting into her head.

Good post. Re: some of Peter's comments, I believe it's called "negging". There is a whole forum out there for losers who hate women and want to play with their heads, and they do this to attractive women to bring them down a peg. 

To be clear, I'm not saying Peter is a member of those forums. But in hindsight, some of his behavior and comments can be seen as negging Rachel, intentional or not.

She dodged a bullet. 

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1 hour ago, ridethemaverick said:

Good post. Re: some of Peter's comments, I believe it's called "negging". There is a whole forum out there for losers who hate women and want to play with their heads, and they do this to attractive women to bring them down a peg. 

To be clear, I'm not saying Peter is a member of those forums. But in hindsight, some of his behavior and comments can be seen as negging Rachel, intentional or not.

She dodged a bullet. 

I wish this were funny and I could just laugh it all off, but these claims are getting more and more out there and are just freaking sad. I am waiting for Peter to be called abusive.  The conversation seems to be heading there now that he's being lumped in with losers who hate women. Who knew Peter not wanting to propose to a woman he barely knew would bring us here. I'm always thankful for reminders of how ugly this world is and that none of what is spewed about Peter makes Bryan one bit likable. Also, kudos and blessings to Anthony, Iggy, Diggy, and Alex who were all in WI supporting Peter and raised $24,000 for the Boys and Girls Club. "When others go low, go high."

Edited by comosedice
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1 hour ago, ridethemaverick said:

Good post. Re: some of Peter's comments, I believe it's called "negging". There is a whole forum out there for losers who hate women and want to play with their heads, and they do this to attractive women to bring them down a peg. 

To be clear, I'm not saying Peter is a member of those forums. But in hindsight, some of his behavior and comments can be seen as negging Rachel, intentional or not.

She dodged a bullet. 

Yes! Exactly. Straight out of the PUA handbook.

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Rachel has never said she was the spokeswoman for All Black Women, so can't we just talk about Rachel. Bryan and Peter et al in the context of what happened on the show?

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18 minutes ago, SnapeCharmer said:

Yes! Exactly. Straight out of the PUA handbook.

Yep. I don't think Peter is on par with those losers but I do think he tried to knock Rachel down a peg. If he is the next bachelor, I think he will love it because he won't have to chase after the woman, they'll be chasing him which is probably more his speed.

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5 hours ago, comosedice said:

think we should all be cautious when things don't feel right with anyone, but it is also grossly unfair to be using your trauma to judge a complete stranger and make him out to be this manipulative demon.

True, but it's all projection, isn't it?  From those of us who recoiled when Bryan played smooth operator in the premiere to how people felt about Demario and his "girlfriend." 

But I do think it's kind of silly to get up in arms about head games when it is explicitly designed to play head games.  With the lead.  With the contestants.  Not all that into the lead?  Play along just enough because there are incentives to doing so.  Not sure if a contestant is into you for you or because of those incentives?  All part of the game.  Don't want to keep crazy?  You're going to have to look like an idiot because we think crazy WhaBoom is good TV and you'll just have to live with people questioning your judgment.  Falling hard for the lead but don't know if they really like you the most or are saying similar things to others because, hey, you've seen the show?  You're supposed to fall and forget about the fact that you could get your heart broken.

It is all a head game.  Peter's hesitancy could fall into "not that into her" category or "afraid she's more into others."  Or yes, mind games, although I still don't see negging.  And I don't see a situation where he gets three or four dates and competes against thirty other men as comparable to two people who have been together for years. 

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6 hours ago, comosedice said:

This is projection. I'm sorry you went through what you did, but you don't know Peter (neither do I) and he is not your ex. I think we should all be cautious when things don't feel right with anyone, but it is also grossly unfair to be using your trauma to judge a complete stranger and make him out to be this manipulative demon. Also, the lead is not the only one choosing a partner, so Peter wanting the people (family and friends) who are important to him to meet the woman who could potentially become his wife is not a bad thing. I don't know how this was twisted to be something awful. I understand why some innocent people get murdered sometimes. It's because the other person is haunted by their past and that's all they see. All you need is the slightest resemblance and you stop being you.

Thanks for responding.  I said based on my experience I saw red flags.  I even stated that he could be genuine, but those red flags were present for me.  I was posting from my perspective because Rachel has stated similar experiences to mine, so I can understand why she said Peter messed with her head.  It was in response to a previous post of how could Peter get into Rachel's head.   I was very careful to qualify in the beginning that this was my point of view based on my experience, not that this is who I think Peter is.  

For what what it is worth, I actually understand why Peter has the fan base he has. I wish him luck and hope he finds someone who gets him.   However, he is not for Rachel or people who have had similar experiences as Rachel.    I apologize if my post was received as projection.  The intent was to explain Comosdice's question of how someone could mess with someone's head. Due to it happening to me, I tried to answer.

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56 minutes ago, comosedice said:

I wish this were funny and I could just laugh it all off, but these claims are getting more and more out there and are just freaking sad. I am waiting for Peter to be called abusive.  The conversation seems to be heading there now that he's being lumped in with losers who hate women. Who knew Peter not wanting to propose to a woman he barely knew would bring us here. I'm always thankful for reminders of how ugly this world is and that none of what is spewed about Peter makes Bryan one bit likable. Also, kudos and blessings to Anthony, Iggy, Diggy, and Alex who were all in WI supporting Peter and raised $24,000 for the Boys and Girls Club. "When others go low, go high."

I agree this is where this is going. 

Interestingly, what I saw was Rachel "negging" the hell out of Peter on that AFR segment, and him having to sit there stoically taking it to avoid coming across as a bad guy by defending himself. Any argument he might have presented at that point would simply be interpreted as him being a sore loser. He hinted around the things that he'd want to ask about, but said that the timing wasn't right. Ie: Not in front of a live audience.

If I were Peter, my  main question would be: "Why, in the name of all that is holy, if you knew after the Fantasy Suite dates that you wanted Bryan... you sent Eric home instead of me???" That is the least reasonable and most painful decision she could have made. Eric was firmly friend-zoned and seemed to know it. And it set Peter up for the break-up. She forced his hand on the whole proposal question. She (and production, I am sure) basically tried to break him down, to make him do something against one of his highest values, and then would have rejected him in spite of it. That's just ugly behavior, and if production pushed her into it, she should have said "No. Not happening."

And people are mad because he said something in the heat of the moment that he later regretted. Basically this><close to calling him an abuser because of it. As if Rachel has never said or done anything that she should seriously regret. And then Rachel uses his position as the reject to talk down to him, as if she could "help" him somehow, like Oprah, by saying over and over that this venue isn't for him. When she started talking down to him in the AFR segment, he looked at her as if seeing a new side of her for the first time, and he wasn't happy about it. Of course, he didn't say that, so I don't know for sure if he felt it, but he seemed to be pretty certain he got closure in the morning show interviews. I just wanted him to be able to say once... "You had another guy ready to propose, told him you wanted him, and you never told me I was it for you. I asked you point blank, and you evaded the question. I read between the lines." 

She gave Bryan the confidence to come into the final rose ceremony certain that he was number 1. She tore Peter up, then blamed him for the decision she'd already made before coming to see him the night of the break-up. She could have come into his room that night and said "Let's talk about tomorrow," as she did. He'd say "Yes, tomorrow." And she could have said right then... "Peter, I'm letting you go. The timing hasn't been right for us."

Instead, she danced around the subject, put him in a can't-win situation (he couldn't propose, he couldn't not propose) then ripped his heart out on tv.

I am a married woman, have been married for 30 years, and I can honestly say that any woman who can not bring herself to try to sometimes see things from the point of view of a man, needs to avoid marriage. Men have feelings, and most of the time women don't give them any right to feel the things they feel. "Oh, boo hoo... suck it up!" women tell men. Women are basically discounting Peter's feelings having validity because they make women uncomfortable. Then they accuse him of being a jerk for having the feelings. Peter is not a representative of any system other than the system in his own mind.

He's an individual man. Nothing more. Nothing less. No one is required to like him. No one is required to want to date a man like him. But that doesn't mean he should be associated with every bad thing out there just because a television break-up was so awful. He's one man. One hurt man. And Rachel could have given him a dignified exit, but instead she chose to let production have its way with him. Yes, I do blame her for going along with them. But I suspect that we all know where the initial impetus for creating Drama came from.

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1 hour ago, ridethemaverick said:

Yep. I don't think Peter is on par with those losers but I do think he tried to knock Rachel down a peg. If he is the next bachelor, I think he will love it because he won't have to chase after the woman, they'll be chasing him which is probably more his speed.

I do not believe he's approaching this from their kind of angst - hostility at not being desired by the women they want. Because it's more than obvious that Peter has zero problems attracting women.  Equally desired women at that. But I do think it's within the realm of possibility that some of his actions on the show could be based on those strategies.  I think he had a goal and he did what he had to do to reach it. Whether others agree or disagree with his tactics is a different story.

---

General comment not directed to anyone in particular:

To the overall discussion about Peter, I don't think hashing out theories, possibilities, analyzing, and relating to certain behaviors necessarily equates to disparaging someone for the sake of . A discussion is not an echo chamber.

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2 hours ago, comosedice said:

I wish this were funny and I could just laugh it all off, but these claims are getting more and more out there and are just freaking sad. I am waiting for Peter to be called abusive.  The conversation seems to be heading there now that he's being lumped in with losers who hate women. Who knew Peter not wanting to propose to a woman he barely knew would bring us here. I'm always thankful for reminders of how ugly this world is and that none of what is spewed about Peter makes Bryan one bit likable. Also, kudos and blessings to Anthony, Iggy, Diggy, and Alex who were all in WI supporting Peter and raised $24,000 for the Boys and Girls Club. "When others go low, go high."

 

37 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

True, but it's all projection, isn't it?  From those of us who recoiled when Bryan played smooth operator in the premiere to how people felt about Demario and his "girlfriend." 

I was going to include that people made the smooth operator or player projection on Bryan, and many stated this from the perspective of their own personal experiences.  Thanks for making this point. People react to situations based on who they are and what they have experienced in their lives up to that point.  Some people have had trauma and their reactions and emotions may be different from someone who didn't have the same trauma.   It is what is is.

While people saw Peter as great for Rachel, I saw things that made me see the opposite.  I never ascribed any character traits unto Peter.  I stated his behaviors as I observed them and explained why I thought they were red flags. As I type, my friend who lives in Dallas, was at the engagement party and posted photos of B&R.  I couldn't imagine Peter being comfortable in that setting.  Bryan definitely is.  I saw Bryan as great for Rachel since he gave her a back alignment massage the night Demario left.  He focused on how she was feeling and did what he did to make her feel better.    I married a Bryan, so my lenses look different than most.  

BTW,  this forum is the first forum I have posted on in years (TWoP before this), and it is nice to read intelligent posts have intelligent discussions.

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39 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I agree this is where this is going. 

Interestingly, what I saw was Rachel "negging" the hell out of Peter on that AFR segment, and him having to sit there stoically taking it to avoid coming across as a bad guy by defending himself. Any argument he might have presented at that point would simply be interpreted as him being a sore loser. He hinted around the things that he'd want to ask about, but said that the timing wasn't right. Ie: Not in front of a live audience.

If I were Peter, my  main question would be: "Why, in the name of all that is holy, if you knew after the Fantasy Suite dates that you wanted Bryan... you sent Eric home instead of me???" That is the least reasonable and most painful decision she could have made. Eric was firmly friend-zoned and seemed to know it. And it set Peter up for the break-up. She forced his hand on the whole proposal question. She (and production, I am sure) basically tried to break him down, to make him do something against one of his highest values, and then would have rejected him in spite of it. That's just ugly behavior, and if production pushed her into it, she should have said "No. Not happening."

And people are mad because he said something in the heat of the moment that he later regretted. Basically this><close to calling him an abuser because of it. As if Rachel has never said or done anything that she should seriously regret. And then Rachel uses his position as the reject to talk down to him, as if she could "help" him somehow, like Oprah, by saying over and over that this venue isn't for him. When she started talking down to him in the AFR segment, he looked at her as if seeing a new side of her for the first time, and he wasn't happy about it. Of course, he didn't say that, so I don't know for sure if he felt it, but he seemed to be pretty certain he got closure in the morning show interviews. I just wanted him to be able to say once... "You had another guy ready to propose, told him you wanted him, and you never told me I was it for you. I asked you point blank, and you evaded the question. I read between the lines." 

She gave Bryan the confidence to come into the final rose ceremony certain that he was number 1. She tore Peter up, then blamed him for the decision she'd already made before coming to see him the night of the break-up. She could have come into his room that night and said "Let's talk about tomorrow," as she did. He'd say "Yes, tomorrow." And she could have said right then... "Peter, I'm letting you go. The timing hasn't been right for us."

Instead, she danced around the subject, put him in a can't-win situation (he couldn't propose, he couldn't not propose) then ripped his heart out on tv.

I am a married woman, have been married for 30 years, and I can honestly say that any woman who can not bring herself to try to sometimes see things from the point of view of a man, needs to avoid marriage. Men have feelings, and most of the time women don't give them any right to feel the things they feel. "Oh, boo hoo... suck it up!" women tell men. Women are basically discounting Peter's feelings having validity because they make women uncomfortable. Then they accuse him of being a jerk for having the feelings. Peter is not a representative of any system other than the system in his own mind.

He's an individual man. Nothing more. Nothing less. No one is required to like him. No one is required to want to date a man like him. But that doesn't mean he should be associated with every bad thing out there just because a television break-up was so awful. He's one man. One hurt man. And Rachel could have given him a dignified exit, but instead she chose to let production have its way with him. Yes, I do blame her for going along with them. But I suspect that we all know where the initial impetus for creating Drama came from.

Excellent, well-thought out post. Thank you. 

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10 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

 

I was going to include that people made the smooth operator or player projection on Bryan, and many stated this from the perspective of their own personal experiences.  Thanks for making this point. People react to situations based on who they are and what they have experienced in their lives up to that point.  Some people have had trauma and their reactions and emotions may be different from someone who didn't have the same trauma.   It is what is is.

While people saw Peter as great for Rachel, I saw things that made me see the opposite.  I never ascribed any character traits unto Peter.  I stated his behaviors as I observed them and explained why I thought they were red flags. As I type, my friend who lives in Dallas, was at the engagement party and posted photos of B&R.  I couldn't imagine Peter being comfortable in that setting.  Bryan definitely is.  I saw Bryan as great for Rachel since he gave her a back alignment massage the night Demario left.  He focused on how she was feeling and did what he did to make her feel better.    I married a Bryan, so my lenses look different than most.  

BTW,  this forum is the first forum I have posted on in years (TWoP before this), and it is nice to read intelligent posts have intelligent discussions.

Lol yes the engagement party looked fun as hell and Bryan looked right at home. I totally missed this but apparently Rachel has two sisters. They were both there too, along with a Alex and Adam (i think it was adam, the videos were pretty dark). Alex is so gorgeous.

I married a Bryan too (in that he made his intentions clear from jump and pursued me aggressively and never gave me any reason to doubt). Yet I still preferred Peter early on because I bought into the too good to be true narrative. I figured if Rachel said it, it must be true. I didn't take into account that maybe SHE was projecting onto Bryan based on her past relationships. I guess it's human nature.

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5 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

Lol yes the engagement party looked fun as hell and Bryan looked right at home. I totally missed this but apparently Rachel has two sisters. They were both there too, along with a Alex and Adam

I reeeeeally want to know if Adam Jr. was there... LOL

If so, what face was he making. ;-)

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Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

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4 minutes ago, pickle said:

Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

I'm ALL about the pragmatic pick. It's smart. Marrying solely for love (and loving feelings, which ebb and flow) is far more teenager-y and immature than marrying pragmatically. I'd also add that marrying solely for love is a relatively recent and western ideal and I certainly don't find it superior to any other reason.

I cant speak for anyone else but I can't talk much about Bryan because I don't know much about him. The show became The Peter Show in the end so it's easier to talk about that since we saw it play out. I criticize Peter because I no longer think he's a good guy.

The more I follow them on sm, the more of Bryan I get to see and so far, he seems like a good guy who adores Rachel. I wish we had seen more of their courtship and less of the Peter Show.

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4 hours ago, pickle said:

Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

Because the producers made the entire season about Peter.   They focused on building him up at the expense of Rachel and Bryan. Peter was the focus of the finale and ATFR. So that is what people are talking about. It is by design.

According to most viewers, Peter was the pragmatic pick because "how can you know you  want to marry someone after X months" "Bryan is too smooth and can't possibly be that into Rachel."  Rachel is being criticized for wanting a "fairytale" romance and not something "real" with peter. And some people are expressing why they think Rachel/Peter was/would be toxic and Bryan was number 1. If TPTB had given Bryan more airtime and showed his meaningful conversations with rachel this discussion wouldn't be happening. They made Peter their star.  And when you're the star you get praise and criticism. 

Edited by dirtypop90 · Reason: Typos
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12 minutes ago, CalamityBoPeep said:

I reeeeeally want to know if Adam Jr. was there... LOL

If so, what face was he making. ;-)

Now I'm going to go back and see if he was there lol.

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2 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

Social media.  

Thank you! So, people are just following them on instagram and whatnot. Thank you!

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5 minutes ago, pickle said:

Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

Bryan was her final pick because:

  • Rachel was highly attracted to him and vice versa.
  • He came on the show for Rachel, after his friend nominated him. He had expressed that she was the kind of woman he wanted after seeing her on Nick's season.
  • He  was attentive to Rachel. He focused on her and their building relationship. Everything else was background noise. 
  • He showed her he desired her (For instance, he was non withholding of his affection from day one. When they conversed he leaned in when he spoke to her to maintain their physical connection. That's speaks to intimacy.
  • He was direct with his intentions.
  • He was unwavering in his commitment to see what they were building through to the end; he stayed consistent in his words and actions toward Rachel.
  • He always checked in with her emotions; how do you feel? Are you okay? What can I do to help you feel better (for example: the back massage). That speaks to care and comfort. 
  • He was affirming instead of negating.
  • Their lifestyles are complementary. His career and finances is complementary to Rachel's. They both have professional degrees and are working in their respective fields. He has the flexibility to relocate if need be. So does Rachel.
  • He loves Sports Center (like Rachel)
  • He's older and maturer than most of her other suitors.
  • They had plenty of deep conversations, about what they wanted and those wants were compatible. Both have stated this in their post show interviews (but those conversations were left on the editing room floor. The show wanted a certain narrative. Their discussions didn't fit that narrative).
  • He was/is marriage minded. He is at a place in his life where he's ready to settle down. He said he wants ot get married. He wants three children (Rachel wants 4 lol). That matches up with what Rachel has said to want all along; marriage and children.
  • He gave her little gifts throughout their journey (others did as well, but I thought I should still add that to the list).
  • He showed his generous side by sharing his clothes with Dean during the show (even though Dean did not seem as fond of him as others).
  • During his hometown Date, when his mother criticized his haircut, he stated that "As long as Rachel likes it, I'm happy." - That was sweet, and revealing. Rachel comes first.
  • He asked Rachel's father for her hand in marriage, and her father gave the blessing (this speaks to traditional values of marriage. Again, that matches up with Rachel's ideals.
  • His parents have been married for over 40 years, so like Rachel he has a great familial foundation to draw upon. This is another match with her lifestyle.
  • He takes care of himself - well groomed and fit.
  • Most important, he told her he loved her without qualifier or quantifiers. 
  • In Rachel's words "He seemed too good to be true."
  • His post show words and actions have done nothing but validate the man he presented himself to be - To Rachel, he is The One.

Oh and he (Bryan) has a good Credit score, she asked her final three about that. Possibly a good stroke game as well (if we are to surmise they slept together in the fantasy suite) lol That is all!

39 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

Lol yes the engagement party looked fun as hell and Bryan looked right at home. I totally missed this but apparently Rachel has two sisters. They were both there too, along with a Alex and Adam (i think it was adam, the videos were pretty dark). Alex is so gorgeous.

I married a Bryan too (in that he made his intentions clear from jump and pursued me aggressively and never gave me any reason to doubt). Yet I still preferred Peter early on because I bought into the too good to be true narrative. I figured if Rachel said it, it must be true. I didn't take into account that maybe SHE was projecting onto Bryan based on her past relationships. I guess it's human nature.

Rachel and her sisters looked gorgeous in their white dresses. Everyone looked like they were having a ton of fun.

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I really don't think that Peter was intentionally manipulative or "negging", or anything sinister like that. He's selfish in that he wants a relationship only on his terms and timeline, but he's been very clear about that from the beginning. Rachel chose to keep him week after week hoping he would come around. To quote Maya Angelou, "when someone shows you who they are, believe them" - Rachel should have heeded that advice. 

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1 hour ago, pickle said:

Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

I agree.  Unfortunately, R&B's love story wasn't a major storyline this season. Peter was the star and R&B were the supporting cast.   I wasn't able to watch in real time, and since I am on vacation, I binged watched  within the last 48 hours so it is all still fresh.  

Many people on social media were up in arms because Peter wasn't chosen.  I definitely understand why they feel the way they do based on how the season was presented. Having seen the episodes back to back,  I was able to deduce that the major storyline was The Fall of Peter, not Rachel and Bryan's Love Story. Even on the ATFR episode, more time was spent on Rachel and Peter than on Bryan and her.  If Rachel and Bryan had more angst and drama, it would definitely be shown.  Rachel and Bryan probably got along so well that the too good to be true or the too charming storyline was the only one they could give them.

I am a producer for a morning news/entertainment show here in Northern California, so I know how to exploit raw footage, interviews, voiceovers and live action caps to produce a storyline.  What I am saying is that this show is not a documentary on a love journey. It is about storylines and ratings (Demario's "girlfriend" Subplot, the Kenny and Lee Subplot- casting actually spends a lot of time vetting contestants so they knew what they were doing with Lee, and Peter Won't Propose Subplot). They produced what they felt would give the franchise the greatest profit.  While the story's plot progressed, the ending was anticlimactic.  It left many viewers who were invested over the past 12 weeks unsatisfied. 

Some things to note:

Per my professional networking, of the contestants cast for Bachelor/ette, only a third of them are a compatibility match for the lead.  The rest are cast for ratings/drama or potential leads.  

Josiah and Bryan were cast later than others when they found out Rachel was the lead.

Bryan told his good friend Pauldine  that he had the biggest crush on Rachel and that he thought that they were a perfect match. Pauldine signed him up when she was announced.

Now that the season is over, the Rachel and Bryan Love Story Plot can now play out in real life and in real time.

47 minutes ago, SnapeCharmer said:

Bryan was her final pick because:

  • Rachel was highly attracted to him and vice versa.
  • He came on the show for Rachel, after his friend nominated him. He had expressed that she was the kind of woman he wanted after seeing her on Nick's season.
  • He  was attentive to Rachel. He focused on her and their building relationship. Everything else was background noise. 
  • He showed her he desired her (For instance, he was non withholding of his affection from day one. When they conversed he leaned in when he spoke to her to maintain their physical connection. That's speaks to intimacy.
  • He was direct with his intentions.
  • He was unwavering in his commitment to see what they were building through to the end; he stayed consistent in his words and actions toward Rachel.
  • He always checked in with her emotions; how do you feel? Are you okay? What can I do to help you feel better (for example: the back massage). That speaks to care and comfort. 
  • He was affirming instead of negating.
  • Their lifestyles are complementary. His career and finances is complementary to Rachel's. They both have professional degrees and are working in their respective fields. He has the flexibility to relocate if need be. So does Rachel.
  • He loves Sports Center (like Rachel)
  • He's older and maturer than most of her other suitors.
  • They had plenty of deep conversations, about what they wanted and those wants were compatible. Both have stated this in their post show interviews (but those conversations were left on the editing room floor. The show wanted a certain narrative. Their discussions didn't fit that narrative).
  • He was/is marriage minded. He is at a place in his life where he's ready to settle down. He said he wants ot get married. He wants three children (Rachel wants 4 lol). That matches up with what Rachel has said to want all along; marriage and children.
  • He gave her little gifts throughout their journey (others did as well, but I thought I should still add that to the list).
  • He showed his generous side by sharing his clothes with Dean during the show (even though Dean did not seem as fond of him as others).
  • During his hometown Date, when his mother criticized his haircut, he stated that "As long as Rachel likes it, I'm happy." - That was sweet, and revealing. Rachel comes first.
  • He asked Rachel's father for her hand in marriage, and her father gave the blessing (this speaks to traditional values of marriage. Again, that matches up with Rachel's ideals.
  • His parents have been married for over 40 years, so like Rachel he has a great familial foundation to draw upon. This is another match with her lifestyle.
  • He takes care of himself - well groomed and fit.
  • Most important, he told her he loved her without qualifier or quantifiers. 
  • In Rachel's words "He seemed too good to be true."
  • His post show words and actions have done nothing but validate the man he presented himself to be - To Rachel, he is The One.

Oh and he (Bryan) has a good Credit score, she asked her final three about that. Possibly a good stroke game as well (if we are to surmise they slept together in the fantasy suite) lol That is all!

Rachel and her sisters looked gorgeous in their white dresses. Everyone looked like they were having a ton of fun.

Good post.  I posted similar points.  I guess we were posting at the same time.

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10 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

I agree.  Unfortunately, R&B's love story wasn't a major storyline this season. Peter was the star and R&B were the supporting cast.   I wasn't able to watch in real time, and since I am on vacation, I binged watched  within the last 48 hours so it is all still fresh.  

Many people on social media were up in arms because Peter wasn't chosen.  I definitely understand why they feel the way they do based on how the season was presented. Having seen the episodes back to back,  I was able to deduce that the major storyline was The Fall of Peter, not Rachel and Bryan's Love Story. Even on the ATFR episode, more time was spent on Rachel and Peter than on Bryan and her.  If Rachel and Bryan had more angst and drama, it would definitely be shown.  Rachel and Bryan probably got along so well that the too good to be true or the too charming storyline was the only one they could give them.

I am a producer for a morning news/entertainment show here in Northern California, so I know how to exploit raw footage, interviews, voiceovers and live action caps to produce a storyline.  What I am saying is that this show is not a documentary on a love journey. It is about storylines and ratings (Demario's "girlfriend" Subplot, the Kenny and Lee Subplot- casting actually spends a lot of time vetting contestants so they knew what they were doing with Lee, and Peter Won't Propose Subplot). They produced what they felt would give the franchise the greatest profit.  While the story's plot progressed, the ending was anticlimactic.  It left many viewers who were invested over the past 12 weeks unsatisfied. 

Some things to note:

Per my professional networking, of the contestants cast for Bachelor/ette, only a third of them are a compatibility match for the lead.  The rest are cast for ratings/drama or potential leads.  

Josiah and Bryan were cast later than others when they found out Rachel was the lead.

Bryan told his good friend Pauldine  that he had the biggest crush on Rachel and that he thought that they were a perfect match. Pauldine signed him up when she was announced.

Now that the season is over, the Rachel and Bryan Love Story Plot can now play out in real life and in real time.

Good post.  I posted similar points.  I guess we were posting at the same time.

Your profession offers some helpful insight into these things. Thank you for sharing!

13 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I really don't think that Peter was intentionally manipulative or "negging", or anything sinister like that. He's selfish in that he wants a relationship only on his terms and timeline, but he's been very clear about that from the beginning. Rachel chose to keep him week after week hoping he would come around. To quote Maya Angelou, "if someone tells you who they are, believe them" - Rachel should have heeded that advice. 

That's what frustrated me the most with Rachel. But again, I realize there may have been things going on behind the scenes that pushed her to keep him, outside of the theory that he was manipulating her or she was manipulating him. That point I'll concede.

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^ Thanks.  I usually only watch reality TV to focus on the production value.  I rarely pay attention to the "plot" because I know how heavily manipulated they are.  In this case, I actually have acquaintances who know Rachel (sorority sisters) so I watched this season.  That is why I focused on Rachel mostly, and who I thought was best for her and not who I wanted her to end up with.  I also was supposed to watch Nick's season as I had the episodes recorded, but Rachel was spoiled to be the next lead, so I didn't bother.  This is the only season I watched, and probably won't watch any more seasons.  

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The last thing I will state on this topic of production  is this.  It is the producers' job the get the desired footage for their desired storyline(s).  Rachel is a Litigator and understands what she is contractually obligated to do.  That is all.

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12 minutes ago, Earlfor1 said:

^ Thanks.  I usually only watch reality TV to focus on the production value.  I rarely pay attention to the "plot" because I know how heavily manipulated they are.  In this case, I actually have acquaintances who know Rachel (sorority sisters) so I watched this season.  That is why I focused on Rachel mostly, and who I thought was best for her and not who I wanted her to end up with.  I also was supposed to watch Nick's season as I had the episodes recorded, but Rachel was spoiled to be the next lead, so I didn't bother.  This is the only season I watched, and probably won't watch any more seasons.  

I'm with you on that. After BIP, I'll just stick to recaps and spoilers.

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On 8/13/2017 at 2:27 AM, Earlfor1 said:

Some men know how to play on some women's insecurities.  While I can say that it wouldn't happen to me now, it has happened in my past. From my experience, as I had dated a "Peter" in my 20s for 3 years, I could see how Peter could have done it.  My ex didn't want to formally commit to marriage  but wanted me to move in with him.  After I realized that we were going nowhere, I decided to break things off (several times).  He would tell me what I wanted to hear, and I ended up staying longer than was healthy for me.  Peter's actions actually triggered some emotions in me that I thought I had gotten  over 10 years ago.  I could only imagine how Rachel was caught up in emotions as she mentioned that Peter reminded her of a past relationship.  My ex also told me that I wouldn't find anyone as good as him, and I would be miserable without him.  It was the kind of things my ex said to get in my head.  So when Peter said "mediocre life", I was done with him.  

I'm glad you got yourself out of this situation, and I hope you're happy now :)  However, in your experience (unlike Rachel) you didn't have another man who you claimed is the one you really wanted waiting in the wings.   If there were someone else you really wanted who was willing to give you what you want with no head games, would the ex have been able to get into your head? Or would you have been more like "Good luck with your screwed up self, I don't want you anyway!"?  I think that was the point @comosedice was making.

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I just got back from vacation so I'm a little late to the party but that won't stop me from chiming in :-)

I think Peter is completely capable of being manipulative (I don't trust anyone on reality tv not to be) but I just don't think he has the grey matter to pull any sort of long con, I think he suffers more from "I'm pretty and things should go the way I want them" syndrome.  It's not that he doesn't value other  people or their emotions, he just doesn't value them as much as his own.

Maybe it's just that I'm predisposed to cut the lead a little slack at the end since they usually seem a little shell shocked....

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23 hours ago, pickle said:

Q. Why was Bryan the final pick?

Ans: Because Peter was.........

I don't think I am any closer to understanding or getting a read on Bryan because the commentary from fans of this pairing is invariably about Peter. Whatever Peter is or isn't, whatever he did or didn't do, is irrelevant because he wasn't her pick. Bryan was her pick and if she chose from her heart, why is the commentary still centered on Peter and how he failed in some way??? Where is the commentary about Bryan? All these continued criticisms of Peter only reinforces my impression that Bryan at best was a pragmatic pick.

I am with you. At this point, if Peter went around saying "Keep my name out of your mouth" a la Eric, I would support it. 

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3 hours ago, ByTor said:

I'm glad you got yourself out of this situation, and I hope you're happy now :)  However, in your experience (unlike Rachel) you didn't have another man who you claimed is the one you really wanted waiting in the wings.   If there were someone else you really wanted who was willing to give you what you want with no head games, would the ex have been able to get into your head? Or would you have been more like "Good luck with your screwed up self, I don't want you anyway!"?  I think that was the point @comosedice was making.

Very good point.  While I didn't have someone else while I was dating my ex (real world is a little different  as we don't  usually date more than one person at a time ?), I had the same issue when I first started to date my now husband.  There was no drama, and I was waiting for the other shoe to drop.  I thought he was a rebound person, so I couldn't see "his real issues".    Not to mention that my ex kept contacting me while the new relationship was fresh.  

When I finally realized what I had with my now husband was real, I decided break all contact (sm mostly at that point).  He kept contacting my family.  I couldn't give my future husband the attention he deserved, and even though I was sure I wanted my husband, in the back of my mind I kept wondering if I was really making a mistake. It took me getting a job halfway across the country, and my future husband stating he would move with me to be finally free. 

Different scenarios, but the complications are all the same.  Rachel had to feel some of the same emotions.

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On 8/13/2017 at 1:59 PM, CalamityBoPeep said:

Who knew Peter not wanting to propose to a woman he barely knew would bring us here.

I haven't looked at this forum in a few days and I don't like where this has headed either.  I volunteer for a domestic violence response team and I don't think this type of talk should be taken lightly.  Peter just didn't want to propose for god sakes.  Maybe he thought/wished/hoped he would be able to get there in the context and timing of this show, but guess what he didn't.  Rachel has the right to be pissed about that, but that doesn't make him a villain.  Why should he have stepped down from the show if he was having true feelings for her??  He was very clear with her and if she didn't like what he was saying well then she should have gotten rid of him.  Bryan is not a villain either but I think portraying Peter as borderline abusive is quite unfair. My humble opinions:)

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I was ready to bet hard money that TPTB were screwing with us by showing Peter being cold and non-commital while Bryan was all gah-gah for Rachel and they couldn't keep their hands (lips or tongue) off of each other. And then she "bought" those expensive matching watches. That HAD to be a red herring to through us off the Peter-Is-F1 scent. Up until the live confrontation, I thought Peter WAS F1. Boy, am I glad none of you took me up on my bet or I would be living in a cardboard box under a bridge right now. Now I'm thinking family was told to question Bryan and love Peter, so TPTB could get that on film. I admit, TPTB sure played ME this season!

Gah, I mean "throw" not "through." Geez.

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33 minutes ago, mostlylurking said:

I haven't looked at this forum in a few days and I don't like where this has headed either.  I volunteer for a domestic violence response team and I don't think this type of talk should be taken lightly.  Peter just didn't want to propose for god sakes.  Maybe he thought/wished/hoped he would be able to get there in the context and timing of this show, but guess what he didn't.  Rachel has the right to be pissed about that, but that doesn't make him a villain.  Why should he have stepped down from the show if he was having true feelings for her??  He was very clear with her and if she didn't like what he was saying well then she should have gotten rid of him.  Bryan is not a villain either but I think portraying Peter as borderline abusive is quite unfair. My humble opinions:)

I didn't get the impression that people were accusing Peter of being borderline abusive. That would be a big stretch. based on what we've seen of him. I've heard terms like manipulative or selfish thrown out, but neither of those terms are remotely synonymous with abusive.  Personally, I really have no idea what was going through Peter's mind. The final interview suggests that he cared deeply for Rachel, but wanted the best of both worlds. He wanted her to take a leap of faith and pick him over Bryan, but he didn't want to make any commitments.  I don't think that was fair to Rachel and I can understand her frustration.  I think that the back and forth interaction between Peter and Rachel reminded some people of emotionally frustrating relationships that they' experienced, which is why they understand Rachel's perspective. But that still doesn't imply that they saw him as abusive.  However, I do think that it's fair game to speculate that Peter went on the show to be the next Bachelor, since I suspect that a lot of contestants go on the show hoping to make a big enough impression to be picked as the next bachelor. But that still doesn't imply that people think he's abusive. At the very worst, he might be calculating, although his emotions in the finale suggest otherwise. His feelings seemed real but for whatever reason, he just couldn't take that final step.  Of course in real life it would be perfectly reasonable to not want to propose after 4-5 real dates, but he went on a show called the Bachelorette knowing that the  winner is expected to propose.

I should add that Peter isn't the only person being criticized here. There have been tons of negative comments about Rachel throughout the thread....many which struck me as pretty harsh and unfair.  Some have stated that that she didn't deserve Peter, that he dodged a bullet, or that she showed her "true colors" in the final interview.  Some saw Peter as the victim.  Anyway, I think that many of the  recent comments about Peter were posted to defend Rachel or to explain why they saw Peter's behavior as problematic.  But I didn't get the impression that people were trying to say he was abusive. I liked Peter, but I can completely understand why Rachel didn't pick him  and why the entire experience with him was so difficult for her.   Honestly, I didn't find Bryan particularly exciting to watch, but he definitely seemed smitten with Rachel. and knew what he wanted (unlike Peter).  I'm not sure why so many people are bashing him either. But we all see things differently, I guess. 

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6 hours ago, bosawks said:

I just got back from vacation so I'm a little late to the party but that won't stop me from chiming in :-)

I think Peter is completely capable of being manipulative (I don't trust anyone on reality tv not to be) but I just don't think he has the grey matter to pull any sort of long con, I think he suffers more from "I'm pretty and things should go the way I want them" syndrome.  It's not that he doesn't value other  people or their emotions, he just doesn't value them as much as his own.

Maybe it's just that I'm predisposed to cut the lead a little slack at the end since they usually seem a little shell shocked....

Yeah, me too just getting back and watching the finale and ATFR. I think Bryan was in love with her from the beginning and Peter not so much. I could see Peter taking himself out of the show a few episodes earlier as he did not seem that into her in a forever sense, but being talked out of it by the producers. Rachel otoh seemed like she was crazy about Peter from the get-go, and anyone who STILL gets that upset during the ATFR and demands answers--omg, she obviously is still a little crazy about him. Because she "won", she got a nice guy who is going to be there for her forever if she lets him, no need to break down her F2, but she still needed to do it, for some reason. IMO it was borderline disrespectful to Bryan.

I hope Peter isn't the next Bachelor partly because of the blowback from this show, but I wouldn't mind Dean on my screen for a couple of months. 

But mostly, unless I nodded off during it, I was soooo happy to not see previous Bachelorettes or Bachelors during the ATFR giving advice or flaunting their happiness. Thank you, Show.

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