S13.E10: The Men Tell All

[AllyCat7]

23 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Kenny was being diplomatic because he was on television and he knows how much certain people freak out when you say the word 'racist' in public.  Unfortunately minorities are often forced to minimize their experiences and keep quiet because many people don't like to be reminded of their major privilege or face being educated in these types of situations.  That's my theory, anyway.  

Well if that's the case then that is really upsetting. It's hard to make a judgement call when there are conflicting messages being thrown around. At the very least, I don't like the way it was handled...as others have pointed out since my last post, it seemed unnecessarily harsh. But I know he did wrong, too. I wish none of that had to go down.

[TheFinalRose]

4 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I'm blaming the producers for casting Lee.  The texts I saw last night were all dated prior to the shooting of this season (I may have missed some, but the ones I was able to read were all from 2016).  The producers were looking to create drama and they did.  So, regarding Chris Harrison's reactions to Lee's texts-you knew it before you cast him: dial down the outrage as this was exactly what you were looking for.  Please be clear-I am not defending Lee; I am just frustrated that the producers knowingly brought in someone with racist viewpoints in order to manufacture "drama" in this season of the first African-American lead.

I completely agree with you. The producers do extensive interviews with these guys and you know they carefully placed one incendiary into the mix, hoping it would go off.  Lee was their man. If it weren't him, it would have been some other dumb fool. 

 

Quote

What AllyCat and I don't like is a dogpile and that's exactly what that was.  It went on and on and on.  It was most of the show and it was extremely unpleasant.  Once Lee had been called out and quotes from his social media sites were put on the screen   ( things that weren't even on the show) and Lee had apologized and admitted he was wrong and said he was sorry,  I expected them to move on. But then another man would start on him, and then another one, and then he would try to apologize again.  These men who I liked very much were starting to look judgmental  and smug, because twenty against one is never a good look, no matter how wrong the one on the bottom is. Lee is a small person in every sense of the word and the other men were larger in every sense, bigger more polished and much smarter.

Chris noticed that Lee's hands were shaking and I thought he was stating to cry at one point. Then we would have a commercial and come back to more Lee bashing and finally even Rachel was promising to take him backstage and give him lessons for which the audience cheered, bringing themselves into the angry mob frenzy. And he had apologized to her twice.   The Lee beat down was almost the whole show up until the bloopers and it was not fun, I started to cry at one point.  By the time it was over I didn't like anyone there.

4

Add me to the list of those who didn't like the dogpile. What needed to be done was done at a certain point, and it was time to move on for the viewer's sake. I would have liked to have touched on other moments from the season (the dancing on Ellen!) or talked to other contestants. But Chris Harrison is getting lazier and lazier and if there's some outrage to be had then he figures "the more the merrier" we'll just beat this one to death.  The less he has to do to earn his keep. As a host, he needed to deliver some variety on the plate other than roasted Lee. 

Anyway, back to superficial topics, I'm not sure how I feel about Rachel's dress! Kind of liked it, but not sure it worked, either. Also, I'm all for Dean as the Bachelor, but we'll see how we all feel about him once BIP ends. 

[AllyCat7]

23 hours ago, Nowhere said:

I think you're sensitive to the feelings of others and even when they are very wrong, you don't like to see them picked on. You perceived the situation as the men ganging up on Lee and that, since Lee doesn't FEEL racist, he shouldn't have to be told he acts like it. I understand feeling sorry for someone, especially when they apologize and it isn't received. But it was received. I can understand why they were so upset about his statements though. I would have liked to see the other half of the tweet! Sorry but let this be his learning experience. He had to be held accountable in order to learn. 

I believe that some racists and misogynists don't even know that that is what they are, maybe because that's all they've seen their whole lives. He said he didn't know the tweet was racist, but admitted that it was and denounced it. A lot of people need to learn how to admit when they're wrong. Good on Lee for doing that but man, I wanted to kill him during the season. I really hope this is a real change for him and a real awakening. It is possible that it is. I just have my doubts.

Yeah, you pegged me to a T. I don't like seeing people cry and get hurt---even people who have done wrong--especially if they feel bad about it. The 1 vs 20 setup made it seem like it was an unbalanced situation and he was nearly in tears. I know he was a jerk, but like who wants to see someone crying on national television? His reputation is already tarnished. No need to pile it on so thick. I also give him credit for apologizing. I hope it came from the heart and that he learns from this.

[AllyCat7]

17 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

What AllyCat and I don't like is a dogpile and that's exactly what that was.  It went on and on and on.  It was most of the show and it was extremely unpleasant.  Once Lee had been called out and quotes from his social media sites were put on the screen   ( things that weren't even on the show) and Lee had apologized and admitted he was wrong and said he was sorry,  I expected them to move on. But then another man would start on him, and then another one, and then he would try to apologize again.  These men who I liked very much were starting to look judgmental  and smug, because twenty against one is never a good look, no matter how wrong the one on the bottom is. Lee is a small person in every sense of the word and the other men were larger in every sense, bigger more polished and much smarter.

 Chris noticed that Lee's hands were shaking and I thought he was stating to cry at one point. Then we would have a commercial and come back to more Lee bashing and finally even Rachel was promising to take him backstage and give him lessons for which the audience cheered, bringing themselves into the angry mob frenzy. And he had apologized to her twice.   The Lee beat down was almost the whole show up until the bloopers and it was not fun, I started to cry at one point.  By the time it was over I didn't like anyone there.

Yup. This was how I felt. I still have to do more digging to determine how I feel as to whether he may be a racist or not, but either way, the pile-on was uncomfortable to watch. I didn't like that he had tears in his eyes the whole time...and that they dragged it out even after he kept apologizing. I would have felt that way no matter who was sitting in that chair. And I also felt back for Kenny when he was getting picked on by Lee. I just don't like seeing people get hurt.

[Nowhere]

You never know a person's state of mind either. There have been reality show people who have harmed themselves because of public bashing or humiliation. 

I wish they would have told us why Whaboom and Blake like to be on reality shows together seeing as this is their second. 

[kingshearte]

Reading through all this has made me glad I opted not to bother watching it. I had more than enough of Lee on the actual show. I don't need to spend even more time watching him pretend to be sorry. And even without watching, I do not buy his contrition. If it hadn't been so obvious during the main show that he knew exactly what he was doing and saying and the effects that it would have, then maybe I could buy it and feel bad for him. But given what I've seen, you'd be hard pressed to convince me that if he was upset, it was over anything more than simply being ganged up on, which is unpleasant no matter how much of an asshole you are.

And now I will just express my fervent hope that he never darkens my TV again, so I will never have anything further to think or say about him.

[JudyObscure]

Can we talk about DeMario?  He actually called Lexi a, "side piece,"  "someone you call at 5 o'clock," and compared her to Monica Lewinsky.  He slut-shamed her, by name, on national TV.  When someone tried to check him for it, DeMario called him "irrelevant," because he's not the big star DeMario thinks he himself is now, and Dean stood up for DeMario saying he wasn't like Lee, who was "a bad person,"  but DeMario just made "some bad choices." 

DeMario's "bad choices," included telling some straight up lies and throwing Lexi under the bus on two separate episodes.  Lee got an hour long beat down over a stupid tweet about the NAACP. Lexi's not a big powerful organization that's been going up against institutionalized racism since 1909, she's  an ordinary, young woman who has to face her family, friends and co-workers, not to mention every man she dates from here on in, who will have a preconceived idea about her.  But everyone just laughed when DeMario was talking about her, even Chis Harrison was snickering a little.

[nlkm9]

10 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Can we talk about DeMario?  He actually called Lexi a, "side piece,"  "someone you call at 5 o'clock," and compared her to Monica Lewinsky.  He slut-shamed her, by name, on national TV.  When someone tried to check him for it, DeMario called him "irrelevant," because he's not the big star DeMario thinks he himself is now, and Dean stood up for DeMario saying he wasn't like Lee, who was "a bad person,"  but DeMario just made "some bad choices." 

DeMario's "bad choices," included telling some straight up lies and throwing Lexi under the bus on two separate episodes.  Lee got an hour long beat down over a stupid tweet about the NAACP. Lexi's not a big powerful organization that's been going up against institutionalized racism since 1909, she's  an ordinary, young woman who has to face her family, friends and co-workers, not to mention every man she dates from here on in, who will have a preconceived idea about her.  But everyone just laughed when DeMario was talking about her, even Chis Harrison was snickering a little.

I agree Demario is a jerk. Yes, he got some poor treatment after the paradise island stuff, but hes a jerk and doesnt deserve all the adoration and dancing with the stars?? they have gotten pretty desperate I guess

[waving feather]

Despite the men soap-boxing about Lee, they were all buddy buddy and partying with him and taking pictures at the after party. So I think it's all part of a script.

[jade.black]

On 8/1/2017 at 7:08 AM, JudyObscure said:

Chris noticed that Lee's hands were shaking and I thought he was stating to cry at one point. Then we would have a commercial and come back to more Lee bashing and finally even Rachel was promising to take him backstage and give him lessons for which the audience cheered, bringing themselves into the angry mob frenzy. And he had apologized to her twice.   The Lee beat down was almost the whole show up until the bloopers and it was not fun, I started to cry at one point.  By the time it was over I didn't like anyone there.

Yes, thank you. And AlleyCat too (for some reason it won't let me grab quotes from two separate pages to respond to both of you). My friend and I were watching and both felt the same way- she wondered what it says about us that our opinions differed so wildly from everyone else's. I felt awful watching that last night. Lee said some ignorant shit on Twitter (although seriously, that first tweet about getting a dog was a stretch- don't tell me many women after a breakup haven't said that their pets are preferable to men, if they wanted a damaging tweet they should have pulled that Black Lives Matter one or the one about Vietnam) and had issues in the house, but the guy apologized and in no way tried to defend himself last night. He actually handled himself very well sitting there while guy after guy attacked him. I give him credit for even showing up to this and then sitting quietly to listen before speaking. He didn't even try to jump in to get in a word- actually, at one point, he started to respond to Kenny who promptly cut him off since clearly the five past minutes he'd spent talking about Lee to that point hadn't been enough. He waited until he was brought up to the couch and apologized, denounced his tweets, basically everything he could do, but nobody wanted to let him leave until he would come right out and admit to being a racist. You could see all over his face that he clearly doesn't consider himself to be a racist (whether or not he recognizes that the incendiary tweets he made sound racist is a different story), so why would he come out and call himself that on national television? He said that the things he'd written/said were wrong and was obviously trying to think of a way to appease the guys who one after another refused to let him stand up until he came out and said the word "racist", I don't see why they weren't going to be satisfied until he labeled himself. It was painful to watch. (Also, Anthony IS well-spoken, I'm surprised so many people saw that as a back-handed comment. I guess when someone you don't like makes a complimentary statement towards someone you're just going to twist it to fit your narrative.) And now I feel like everyone is going to think I'm defending someone for racism when that's not the case at all. I'm just saying this whole thing was handled badly and Lee is still a human being. Fuck it. 

You want to complain about the amount of screentime given to Lee last night, but he clearly didn't want it. The one who was itching to get his face on TV was Kenny. Not really sorry for the highly unpopular opinion, but I'd be happy never to see his face again. He's unbearable to watch. He felt like the crowd was idolizing him for being Lee's nemesis and was eating it up. And then the tears again when seeing his daughter who he probably just saw earlier that morning. Whatever. The breaking point for me was when Lee FINALLY had a chance to speak and explain himself, and after not even ten seconds the camera cut to Kenny looking at the guy next to him and making a snake motion with his hand. What a dick. And right, he might not have started out as aggressive, but the more the show went on, the worse he got. From the intense whispered threats to storming back over to confront Lee after his elimination and deliver more heated words, hey!, he was an aggressor. Lee was an antagonistic little shit, but Kenny escalated the situation. If they make him next Bachelor, I don't think I can watch.

Controversial opinion. Don't care. I can't hop on the Kenny bandwagon. I would have more to say about the other guys but this drama got me heated. (Ok, actually, loved Dean's and Alex's suits. That's all.)

Edited August 2, 2017 by jade.black

[Stinamaia]

It is always interesting to see how different people view events.  I did not see anyone yelling at Lee or even demanding to admit he was a racist. I saw some people who were quite passionate and determined to get Lee to admit that the tweet espoused a racist view.  The reason it went on so long was that Lee steadfastly refused to say that.  He fell back on the excuse that he was ignorant and needed to learn.  They weren't even asking him to say that he himself was racist.  At the end when Lee said the tweet was racist, everyone seemed relieved.  They were asking him to examine himself to find why he thought that "joke" was funny and to acknowledge what they were forgiving him for. 

I always get annoyed when people claim not to harbor any bigotry or racism.  We grow up in a society steeped in it, and some of it enters our own pattern of thinking, and we remain unaware until something confronts us and we have flashes of thoughts that are unsavory.  It's important to take note of those thoughts and examine ourselves - not for hours or in a berating way, but just in an "ok you aren't as pure as you thought; do better" kind of way. I remember when I went to a camera store to get a more professional camera.  A woman approached me and I found myself a bit annoyed and distrustful. Here I was a professional woman distrusting someone's expertise simply because she was a woman.  That was a moment of confrontation.  Myself confronting my hidden self.  These are the confrontations I speak about.  So many times we let these roll by without thinking of our own prejudices and sometimes just reinforcing our prejudices.  

And yes I believe the men were very forgiving of Lee.  People so easily attribute  one bad acting individual's traits to a whole group of whatever minority the individual belongs to, but let's  also attribute good qualities to the whole group.  What i see is that most African-Americans are incredibly tolerant and forgiving of the ignorance and casual cruelty of European-Americans' comments.  I guess it comes from a lot of practice.  

So, when I see one white guy who acted in a bad way for a long time having to sit through a comparatively brief period of discomfort and perhaps anguish which could have been much shorter had he  immediately admitted he tweeted something not just ignorant but racist, I do not feel sorry for him.  Sometimes those are our periods of growth.  I hope it is for Lee.  

[rebel2u]

I've wondered during the season if the Lee fiasco might be scripted.   I couldn't figure out why TPTB didn't bring the viciousness to a screaming halt unless they were somehow directing it.  And why would you become known by millions of people as a complete and utter asshat racist unless there was some sort of payoff?

Show, you have some explaining to do.

[Chick2Chic]

19 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

So, when I see one white guy who acted in a bad way for a long time having to sit through a comparatively brief period of discomfort and perhaps anguish which could have been much shorter had he  immediately admitted he tweeted something not just ignorant but racist, I do not feel sorry for him.

This is me. I don't feel sorry for Lee.

For me, being on the receiving end of discrimination because of my skin color or gender doesn't make my heart bleed for someone who gleefully and repeatedly went about making others - specifically Black men - feel uncomfortable for sport and employed dog whistle tactics. 

[jade.black]

13 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

And yes I believe the men were very forgiving of Lee.  People so easily attribute  one bad acting individual's traits to a whole group of whatever minority the individual belongs to, but let's  also attribute good qualities to the whole group.  What i see is that most African-Americans are incredibly tolerant and forgiving of the ignorance and casual cruelty of European-Americans' comments.  I guess it comes from a lot of practice.  

So, when I see one white guy who acted in a bad way for a long time having to sit through a comparatively brief period of discomfort and perhaps anguish which could have been much shorter had he  immediately admitted he tweeted something not just ignorant but racist, I do not feel sorry for him.  Sometimes those are our periods of growth.  I hope it is for Lee.

I actually really like your whole post. I just feel like the whole thing went on and on. People say and do stupid things. Lee seems like he's been buying into the whole awful alt-right movement, and probably in the area he's from, that's the norm (which is another appalling situation altogether). I hope he did learn and grow from the situation and from being exposed to people with different viewpoints. I do think it was a bit of a ganging up situation on TMTA as if they were expecting Lee to get argumentative even when he wasn't, but I don't think any of the other guys came off as badly as Kenny (except- on an entirely different topic- Blake, who I think is the worst). My opinions about him are solely about him and don't extend to the other men.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV podcast on the episode!

 

Whine & Roses: Rachel's Men Tell Most!

The men discuss their time on the season and finally solve racism.

[rebel2u]

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Lee seems like he's been buying into the whole awful alt-right movement, and probably in the area he's from, that's the norm (which is another appalling situation altogether).

Lee is from Georgia or Tennessee, I think, not sure which, so do you mean the southern United States?  That's a pretty big leap to make.  I live in a city that has a mix of whites, blacks and Hispanics, as opposed to the city in NJ that my SIL is from where there are no POC and she had never had any interaction with AA until she moved to Georgia, or my friend whose husband is from a small town in Ohio that was entirely populated by whites, or the young recent college graduate, also from Ohio, that I interviewed for a job, who said, in a nice way, that she had never seen as many AA before as she saw walking in the halls of our company.  On my street of 40 houses, we have 2 interracial couples with children, a lesbian couple with a child and 2 single gay men.  No problems that I know of.  At concerts, grocery stores, department stores, I regularly see interracial couples and friends.  I'm sure that there are prejudiced people everywhere, some that buy into the alt-right movement, but I don't see it as the norm in the south, so please don't paint the area with one brush, if that indeed was your intention.                           

[jade.black]

1 minute ago, rebel2u said:

I'm sure that there are prejudiced people everywhere, some that buy into the alt-right movement, but I don't see it as the norm in the south, so please don't paint the area with one brush, if that indeed was your intention.

No, sorry, not my intention! I didn't know where Lee was from specifically, but all the other guys spoke a lot about where he was from as if it had a lot to do with his viewpoints. Trust me, I live in Ohio and there are plenty of the alt-right supporters here too.

[Catronia]

17 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I do not want a Bachelor with a child.  I did not like Jason or Emily's seasons as I just don't think they should bring children into this venue.  I think there is too much opportunity for the children to get hurt; if they keep their children completely out of it I am okay with it.  Of course, what I think about involving children in this 'journey' or 'process' is of little concern to the producers...

I agree! Kenny's daughter is beautiful and poised, but that's all I want to see of her. Children can get hurt, but also I find them boring and/or irritating. Even if McKenzie isn't anywhere near the show itself, you KNOW we'll have to watch endless weepy Skypes. *yawn* If I wanted to watch a show about kids, I would.

[rebel2u]

No worries at all, jade.black--I'm afraid I get a little over-sensitive at times.  Lee was referred to as a southern racist several times, and I get my hackles up when I hear that--I'm the one talking back to the tv, saying, "We're not all like that!"    The south---gotta represent  ; )

[Stinamaia]

2 hours ago, jade.black said:

I actually really like your whole post. I just feel like the whole thing went on and on. People say and do stupid things. Lee seems like he's been buying into the whole awful alt-right movement, and probably in the area he's from, that's the norm (which is another appalling situation altogether). I hope he did learn and grow from the situation and from being exposed to people with different viewpoints. I do think it was a bit of a ganging up situation on TMTA as if they were expecting Lee to get argumentative even when he wasn't, but I don't think any of the other guys came off as badly as Kenny (except- on an entirely different topic- Blake, who I think is the worst). My opinions about him are solely about him and don't extend to the other men.

I think the only reason it went on and on is because Lee would not say the tweet was racist. He didn't even have to admit he was racist. The length of it is totally on him. He wanted to offer an apology for ignorance and the men weren't having it.  I don't blame them. Had he admitted  at the beginning the tweet was wrong headed and comparaning the NAACP with the KKK was heinous and racist, it would have been over much more quickly.  

One of the reasons I don't like Lee, besides the obvious, is he a symbol of all those people who are nice to black people in person and then go and say awful things when they aren't around.  If I were black, this would make me distrust all white people 'cause I'm kind of a suspicious wary person.  

[yorklee2]

51 minutes ago, rebel2u said:

Lee is from Georgia or Tennessee, I think, not sure which, so do you mean the southern United States?  That's a pretty big leap to make.  I live in a city that has a mix of whites, blacks and Hispanics, as opposed to the city in NJ that my SIL is from where there are no POC and she had never had any interaction with AA until she moved to Georgia, or my friend whose husband is from a small town in Ohio that was entirely populated by whites, or the young recent college graduate, also from Ohio, that I interviewed for a job, who said, in a nice way, that she had never seen as many AA before as she saw walking in the halls of our company.  On my street of 40 houses, we have 2 interracial couples with children, a lesbian couple with a child and 2 single gay men.  No problems that I know of.  At concerts, grocery stores, department stores, I regularly see interracial couples and friends.  I'm sure that there are prejudiced people everywhere, some that buy into the alt-right movement, but I don't see it as the norm in the south, so please don't paint the area with one brush, if that indeed was your intention.                           

Yes! Thank you for this post. This is exactly what I was trying to explain in an earlier post. I'm from Tn and I agree there are some racist people here still holding on to their views but in my experience it's more so the older generation. But we're not wholly our parents or grandparents and things have evolved more. I try to take the many good things my ancestors have taught me and use them but I don't blanketly accept all their views as I realize some come from a place of ignorance and misunderstanding. Some of my closest work friends have been black and I have always taught my daughter to treat people the way you want to be treated regardless of their skin color. I believe racism can be a two way street and we all could and should be more tolerant of each others cultures. We should be able to come together regardless of the color of our skin, our politics and our cultures. That's why people like Lee infuriate me so much. As I noticed during the show that Kenny at one point did a imitation of Lee complete with the southern accent and mannerisms.  And as I can understand Kenny's frustrations and perception of Lee it was a small affront to me as I considered it unnecessary. But I blame this on Lee. He is not a complete representation of our region and it's people. He is a awful and perfect example of racists no matter where they come from.

[bk10]

So Lee went out of his way to make others uncomfortable and they were supposed to feel bad for him and make him feel comfortable when they finally got the chance to confront him and speak to him? I don't think anything about Lee will change, but I would have liked to see him cry. It reminds me of some of the middle school kids I work with. One girl is a bully and picks on others, when they finally confront her she starts to cry and it ends up looking like the other kids were ganging up on her and picking on her. People who aren't familiar with her end up feeling bad for her and trying to make her feel better because they just see a cute little 12 year old crying and being confronted, when in reality she put herself in that situation. She was the aggressor and couldn't handle it when faced with backlash. I've watched this dynamic play out a million times and I never feel bad for the crying bully. They tend to not change and just learn to be more sneaky and manipulative. If everyone started calling Adam (random name) racist when he did nothing to show that he was racist, I would feel bad for Adam. There's no reason to feel bad for a grown man like Lee who happily tweeted what he did and happily went after the black men on the show to paint them in a bad way. 

I realized a long time ago that people are more outraged at being called or seeing people called racist than by the actual racist behavior being done, but that comes with the privilege of not having to face actual racism.

[ridethemaverick]

Fuck Lee. He ain't shit.

Fuck Demario too. He ain't shit either.

Anyway, I thought Rachel look gorgeous. As did Mackenzie. But I agree that I hope Kenny isn't the next bachelor because I'm not interested in the single dad looks for love angle. 

[JudyObscure]

3 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

 People so easily attribute  one bad acting individual's traits to a whole group of whatever minority the individual belongs to, but let's  also attribute good qualities to the whole group.

 

 

18 minutes ago, Stinamaia said:

One of the reasons I don't like Lee, besides the obvious, is he a symbol of all those people who are nice to black people in person and then go and say awful things when they aren't around.  

Aren't you attributing Lee's traits to a whole group?  Why is Lee a symbol of everyone in his ethnic group, or all people from Tennessee?  White people did not elect him as their representative and  holding him responsible for the entire white race, is just as wrong as saying that because DeMario was disrespectful to Lexi, all black men treat women like that.

 I think the men going on and on to get Lee to say the joke was racist was pointless unless he understood why it was racist. Lee was looking at the joke very simplistically.  Lee's thinking, "I said the KKK had racist ass faces, so what's wrong?" All he probably knows about the NAACP is that it works on behalf of blacks only. For all the free offers to "educate," Lee, I didn't hear any actual attempts to explain anything to him about what the group actually does or how nonviolent they have always been.

 So I got the impression they just wanted him to say, "Yes, yes it was racist," not from any new understanding, but in the same sense of getting the boy on the bottom of the pile to holler uncle.

This might have been a good learning experience for everyone watching, if someone could have explained it to him, but instead it was just  twenty people yelling, ridiculing and demanding certain words from one person and interrupting him when he tried to respond.

28 minutes ago, bk10 said:

There's no reason to feel bad for a grown man like Lee who happily tweeted what he did and happily went after the black men on the show to paint them in a bad way. 

I feel a little bit bad for anyone who is being ganged up on whether it's a twelve year-old girl her teacher has given up on, or a grown man -- but mainly I feel bad when I see people I once liked, gleefully joining the angry mob. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

57 minutes ago, bk10 said:

I realized a long time ago that people are more outraged at being called or seeing people called racist than by the actual racist behavior being done, but that comes with the privilege of not having to face actual racism.

Agreed.  A lot of people are only concerned with what has affected them or what might affect them some day. It explains why some people are overly concerned about a 'dogpile' of a poor white man on television who had to confront his own words which he voluntary said and would not back down on even after so much education was thrown his way and yet not being at all concerned about racist tweets or racist actions towards people (or organizations who exist to further the causes of) already stereotyped and oppressed minorities.  

The second one causes actual danger to oppressed minorities and contributes to institutional racism, i.e. police tending to find men with darker skin more "threatening" or "aggressive" than white men, or police finding black protesters more "dangerous" or "aggressive" than white.  Why do you think Trayvon Martin was killed?  Why do you think we can easily find video clips online of police protecting the KKK when they parade around and yet pepper-spraying, being violent towards, and even arresting Black Lives Matter activists (Just look up Deray McKesson, there is an infamous video of him being arrested for simply walking on grass)?  Remember when Dylan Roof executed a bunch of black people and was gently hauled off by the police and he was smiling to the cameras?  Yet we've seen hundreds (HUNDREDS) of cases where black people had no weapons in their hands, yet were "somehow" killed by the police after a "misunderstanding"?  These things don't happen in a bubble.  What Lee has said on national television and posted on internationally read social media is informed by these biases and helps perpetuate them.  

Quote

For all the free offers to "educate," Lee, I didn't hear any actual attempts to explain anything to him about what the group actually does or how nonviolent they have always been.

I'm sure he got more than enough of that on Twitter after he tweeted what he said.  He now has a locked/private Twitter account, probably because he couldn't, and didn't want to deal with it anymore.  NAACP has a world wide website and can be Googled.  What kind of person makes that kind of statement about an abbreviated organization without knowing what the letters stand for or what they do?  We're defending this?  He's an adult, not a child.   If you know how to tweet, you know how to Google.  

Edited August 2, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[JenE4]

I think they went on and on about Lee because they didn't have much other conflict to talk about. They had:

1. DeMario and Lexi

2. Whaaaaboooom and whatshisface

3. Lee and Kenny

4. Lee and Eric

5. Lee and Iggy

6. Lee and...whomever else he rankled

People only get called on the couch if they fought/had drama with people or had a screen-worthy heartbreak. Since the F3 wasn't there, they milked Kenny and Dean's heartbreak and family stories. Then they had to fill the rest with the drama. No one cares about Whaaaboom; as one of the guys said on the show, "Wham-bye!"  Couldn't say too much on DeMario since we couldn't get Lexi's side--no one there to argue with. So then we had Lee's NUMEROUS fights to contend with and, yes, his tweets, as Harrison tends to bring SM content into things these last few+ seasons. If Lee didn't PURPOSEFULLY cause fights with SO many people, he wouldn't have been called to the carpet over it. Hell, if we didn't get those "best of" TMTA clips at the top of the show, we probably would have gotten more Lee. They had 2 hours to fill. 

[Stinamaia]

13 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 

 

Aren't you attributing Lee's traits to a whole group?  Why is Lee a symbol of everyone in his ethnic group, or all people from Tennessee?  White people did not elect him as their representative and  holding him responsible for the entire white race, is just as wrong as saying that because DeMario was disrespectful to Lexi, all black men treat women like that.

 I think the men going on and on to get Lee to say the joke was racist was pointless unless he understood why it was racist. Lee was looking at the joke very simplistically.  Lee's thinking, "I said the KKK had racist ass faces, so what's wrong?" All he probably knows about the NAACP is that it works on behalf of blacks only. For all the free offers to "educate," Lee, I didn't hear any actual attempts to explain anything to him about what the group actually does or how nonviolent they have always been.

 So I got the impression they just wanted him to say, "Yes, yes it was racist," not from any new understanding, but in the same sense of getting the boy on the bottom of the pile to holler uncle.

This might have been a good learning experience for everyone watching, if someone could have explained it to him, but instead it was just  twenty people yelling, ridiculing and demanding certain words from one person and interrupting him when he tried to respond.

I feel a little bit bad for anyone who is being ganged up on whether it's a twelve year-old girl her teacher has given up on, or a grown man -- but mainly I feel bad when I see people I once liked, gleefully joining the angry mob. 

As I said before, I didn't think anyone was yelling or ridiculing.   I did think there was explaining going on and I did think the wanted him to understand why it was racist although surely he  must have known that already.  I also said that Lee was a symbol, not that all white people were like that. I for one am not that way, and I tend to think I'm more representative, but I could be wrong about that.  

I don't know what angry mob you are referring to, that is, whether it was a mob on the show or a mob here on this board.  I did not observe an angry mob either place.  I certainly hope you don't think I am either gleeful or angry because I am neither.  I felt I had a responsibility to state my opiniion.   I didn't hope to change hearts and minds.  I'm not very good at that.  I get that you feel obligated to defend someone you thought was being picked on or bullied, I simply disagree about that.  

[Stinamaia]

1 hour ago, ridethemaverick said:

Fuck Lee. He ain't shit.

Fuck Demario too. He ain't shit either.

Anyway, I thought Rachel look gorgeous. As did Mackenzie. But I agree that I hope Kenny isn't the next bachelor because I'm not interested in the single dad looks for love angle. 

Rachel did look gorgeous.  She's my favorite bachelorette so far.  Usually, I wind up hating every lead because-- show.  She's had some eye rolling moments, but nothing gag worthy.  My opinion only. 

And agreed on everything else.  Also I don't care for super muscular men. 

[BunchOMalarkey]

On 7/31/2017 at 10:44 PM, AllyCat7 said:

I cannot speak for all of Lee's actions because I didn't watch the entire season. But I didn't like how the men practically forced him to admit he is racist when he may not feel that way. His tweet, although wildly ignorant, isn't in itself racist. He obviously doesn't know what the NAACP does and needs to be educated about it. But what he wrote is different from someone saying something like "all black people are like this or that". He was ignorant and uneducated and a fool to speak on things he was ignorant about. But for people to force him to admit that he is a racist was rather extreme. That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation...and I don't think there was evidence to pin that on him 100%. Even Kenny admitted as much. So why was it ok for all the guys on The Men Tell All to bully him into admitting that? Not cool.

Edited August 2, 2017 by BunchOMalarkey

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Stinamaia said:

I don't know what angry mob you are referring to, that is, whether it was a mob on the show or a mob here on this board.  I did not observe an angry mob either place.  I certainly hope you don't think I am either gleeful or angry because I am neither.  I felt I had a responsibility to state my opiniion.   I didn't hope to change hearts and minds.  I'm not very good at that.  I get that you feel obligated to defend someone you thought was being picked on or bullied, I simply disagree about that.  

No, no, no I'm not calling anyone on this board an angry mob, or gleeful. I was talking about the men on the show.  I didn't think their enjoyment of the ganging up on Lee was a good look for them. I'm always talking about the show only. I love that all of the people here on the forum have interesting  and varied opinions. 

I don't feel obligated to "defend," Lee. I think Lee is a shit-stirring jerk cast by the show to do said shit-stirring.  Just because I don't enjoy seeing ten or twelve people attack one, doesn't mean I am defending the one.  It means I like fair play and an even playing field and I'll always think "ganging up" is ugly. 

You know how sometimes a murderer or pedophile will be caught by the police and you see a mob of people outside the courthouse, shouting and threatening the perpetrator.  I hate that.  Does it mean I'm defending the murderer or don't think he deserves it? Does it mean I think the mob is worse than the murderer? No, it means I hate vigilante groups like that, I find them uncivilized and frightening. 

There seems to be an idea floating around  that the more you hate Lee the more you hate racism and to not hate Lee means you don't think racism is a bad thing.  I don't agree with that  at all.

[Stinamaia]

1 minute ago, JudyObscure said:

No, no, no I'm not calling anyone on this board an angry mob, or gleeful. I was talking about the men on the show.  I didn't think their enjoyment of the ganging up on Lee was a good look for them. I'm always talking about the show only. I love that all of the people here on the forum have interesting  and varied opinions. 

I don't feel obligated to "defend," Lee. I think Lee is a shit-stirring jerk cast by the show to do said shit-stirring.  Just because I don't enjoy seeing ten or twelve people attack one, doesn't mean I am defending the one.  It means I like fair play and an even playing field and I'll always think "ganging up" is ugly. 

You know how sometimes a murderer or pedophile will be caught by the police and you see a mob of people outside the courthouse, shouting and threatening the perpetrator.  I hate that.  Does it mean I'm defending the murderer or don't think he deserves it? Does it mean I think the mob is worse than the murderer? No, it means I hate vigilante groups like that, I find them uncivilized and frightening. 

There seems to be an idea floating around  that the more you hate Lee the more you hate racism and to not hate Lee means you don't think racism is a bad thing.  I don't agree with that  at all.

Where we differ is that I did not see a mob attacking Lee.  I did not see him being ganged up on.  I did not see a vigilante group. I did not see anything uncivilized.  I did not see people taking the law into their own hands.  

I don't hate Lee.  I did not like what he did on the show.  I think his tweets show a deplorable political affiliation and a deplorable manner of expressing it.  I think he was hurtful to others.  I hope he is learning to be more open -- to use the show's vernacular. 

[JudyObscure]

Nevermind

Edited August 2, 2017 by JudyObscure

[After7Only]

9 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Can we talk about DeMario?  He actually called Lexi a, "side piece,"  "someone you call at 5 o'clock," and compared her to Monica Lewinsky.  He slut-shamed her, by name, on national TV.  When someone tried to check him for it, DeMario called him "irrelevant," because he's not the big star DeMario thinks he himself is now, and Dean stood up for DeMario saying he wasn't like Lee, who was "a bad person,"  but DeMario just made "some bad choices." 

DeMario's "bad choices," included telling some straight up lies and throwing Lexi under the bus on two separate episodes.  Lee got an hour long beat down over a stupid tweet about the NAACP. Lexi's not a big powerful organization that's been going up against institutionalized racism since 1909, she's  an ordinary, young woman who has to face her family, friends and co-workers, not to mention every man she dates from here on in, who will have a preconceived idea about her.  But everyone just laughed when DeMario was talking about her, even Chis Harrison was snickering a little.

We can all agree that DeMario is a jerk.  And just like Rachel, most of us have experienced a DeMario at least once or twice.  That being said, I'm not really feeling sorry for Lexi.   I don't know if her story is 100% true, 100% false, or somewhere in between, but she went on the show to disparage his character and seek her 15 minutes of fame.   She wouldn't need to worry about preconceived ideas about her,  if she hadn't gone on the show to confront a man who obviously didn't give two licks about her.    That was Lexi's bad choice.  

[ClareWalks]

41 minutes ago, After7Only said:

We can all agree that DeMario is a jerk.  And just like Rachel, most of us have experienced a DeMario at least once or twice.  That being said, I'm not really feeling sorry for Lexi.   I don't know if her story is 100% true, 100% false, or somewhere in between, but she went on the show to disparage his character and seek her 15 minutes of fame.   She wouldn't need to worry about preconceived ideas about her,  if she hadn't gone on the show to confront a man who obviously didn't give two licks about her.    That was Lexi's bad choice.  

Totally agree. Demario sucks, but Lexi went on TV and gave that ridiculously overdramatic speech where she's like "you told her you wanted to wife her when you were just IN MY BED!" I rolled my eyes at her whole deal, honestly. Demario is gross but I think his calling her a side chick was a reference to (most of, probably) these other guys having girlfriends back home to go back to after the show.

[Ohwell]

It wouldn't surprise me if Lexi wound up on BIP next season.

[Ms Blue Jay]

52 minutes ago, After7Only said:

We can all agree that DeMario is a jerk.  And just like Rachel, most of us have experienced a DeMario at least once or twice.  That being said, I'm not really feeling sorry for Lexi.   I don't know if her story is 100% true, 100% false, or somewhere in between, but she went on the show to disparage his character and seek her 15 minutes of fame.   She wouldn't need to worry about preconceived ideas about her,  if she hadn't gone on the show to confront a man who obviously didn't give two licks about her.    That was Lexi's bad choice.  

The acting on Lexi's part was so bad that I didn't really believe any of it.  I didn't realize we were supposed to be operating under the assumption that it was a true story.  haha.  Like maybe they were casually involved but......... that Lexi was actually UPSET with Demario? No.....  I assumed she was acting because the producers asked her to......  (but that's just me.)

[LennieBriscoe]

I don't like Kenny. I won't watch Kenny. I don't even want to hear Kenny. 

And I've never been a sucker for any "Single Parent and Adorable Child" scenario. 

Will watch DWTS, hoping for an early Demario exit. 

Dean is cute, but suitable for the next "Bachelor"? Well,  we know  there wouldn't be any "Meet My Dad" episodes.

Lee is done,  finito mundo, no more TV for you! Nothing attractive or compelling there. 

None of the rejects cares about Rachel. IMO.  

Neither do the F3. 

[SnapeCharmer]

Re: The men and Rachel speaking about Lee

This beautiful young lady did a great recap that addresses a lot of the points you all mentioned in this thread. I happen to agree with her:

[violet and green]

Well, this thread was a lot more interesting than The Men Tell All. I would have liked them to include the usual part of who do you guys think Rachel will pick, who is a better final rose/idiot who wants to propose for a shorty showbiz engagement/last man standing? etc. Of course, the to be continued drama of will Peter now drop out muddies it all.

I hope she picks Bryan. Yech! Leaving Peter and Dean in contention for the next Bachelor.

[SnapeCharmer]

49 minutes ago, violet and green said:

Well, this thread was a lot more interesting than The Men Tell All. I would have liked them to include the usual part of who do you guys think Rachel will pick, who is a better final rose/idiot who wants to propose for a shorty showbiz engagement/last man standing? etc. Of course, the to be continued drama of will Peter now drop out muddies it all.

I hope she picks Bryan. Yech! Leaving Peter and Dean in contention for the next Bachelor.

IMO, considering who's left, each gentleman's back story, age, career, education, personality, looks, compatibility to Rachel and willingness to commit...Eric would be my pick hands down. Bryan's history is sketchy, Peter's history is sketchy (so are his actions during and post show). But I know Rachel is not that into Eric. At least that's how I see it, So with him out of the running, I would think her best bet is to walk away. Besides, her dating pool will upgrade exponentially after this show. She never needed it to find a husband in the first place. I hope she gets her sportscaster career though.

[JudyObscure]

12 hours ago, SnapeCharmer said:

Re: The men and Rachel speaking about Lee

This beautiful young lady did a great recap that addresses a lot of the points you all mentioned in this thread. I happen to agree with her:

She is a beautiful young lady and she has a lovely voice and did an excellent job of recapping all the things the men said. She mentioned that she didn't think apologies could be sincere unless they happened in the moment.  Then she sums it up with her praise for Anthony and the things he said about how people might think they aren't racist and may not remember doing or saying racist things, but they still probably have had a subconscious racist thought at some time.

I think she speaks for a lot of people and the final message I, as a white person, take from her is that it doesn't really matter what I actually do, whether I have marched in civil rights marches, always voted for affirmative action, volunteered for groups that aid African American children, and tried my best  to treat all people equally and fairly.  What matters is that there still might have been, at some moment, a subconscious racist thought in my mind  and there is no way to prove otherwise. Even if I underwent hypnosis to retrieve it, it would be far too late to apologize for it.  Therefore,  I should just hang myself.  Not that that would be enough, of course, it would never atone for the history of my race, but it would be a step in the right direction.

[Ohwell]

I don't plan on hanging myself, but I'll just be glad when the painted on eyebrows trend is over.  

[Stinamaia]

Thank you for the video SnapeCharmer. Of course, now I have hair jealousy, skin jealousy and make-up jealousy, but I shall cope.  Maybe.

i knew a man who as a college student volunteered to work in voter registration in the Deep South in the 1960s.  That was a dangerous time for those of you who might not know.  People both white and black were beaten and some murdered.  This man's goodness and dedication for doing that can not be dismissed.  But here's the thing.  20 years later he espoused racist views.  He was very down on black people and not just black people.  Even more, he hated people from the Indian subcontinent.  I don't base this on casual comments he made.  He was very clear about his feelings.  Interestingly, the last I knew of him, he planned to go to live in Turkey where he had lived in the Peace Corps.  So the guy had done good things in his life.  He may not have self described as a racist, but he had some pretty bigoted views, and it's hard for me to see him giving a job to a black person or an Indian person. 

My point is this:  Everyone who is not a certified saint carries some bias within them.  This woman wasn't saying we are bad or irredeemable.  She was saying those views needed to be thought about and recognized.  When we hurt other people, we should feel bad about it and apologize if possible.  I did not see her condemning anyone.

There is a great book called The Hidden Brain.  It's not just about ethnic bias, but about how all sorts of things in our brains influence our decisions, our thinking, even though we believe ourselves to be completely rational.   A test as been developed to help quantify what the developers call Implicit Bias.  It's an interesting exercise, and frankly it scared me.  You are supposed to do it as rapidly as you can.  I don't necessarily trust the results with me because I have a facility with testing situations.  It's not just about black and white people.  It's broader than that.  If you like to examine yourself and challenge yourself, try it out.  Ease into it of you must.  I did. https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

[seacliffsal]

So, a couple of people have mentioned Demario and Dancing with the Stars?  Is this true?  I haven't read it anywhere else.  If it is true, I would bet it's part of ABC's settlement with him over the events at Bachelor in Paradise.

[SnapeCharmer]

20 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

She is a beautiful young lady and she has a lovely voice and did an excellent job of recapping all the things the men said. She mentioned that she didn't think apologies could be sincere unless they happened in the moment.  Then she sums it up with her praise for Anthony and the things he said about how people might think they aren't racist and may not remember doing or saying racist things, but they still probably have had a subconscious racist thought at some time.

I think she speaks for a lot of people and the final message I, as a white person, take from her is that it doesn't really matter what I actually do, whether I have marched in civil rights marches, always voted for affirmative action, volunteered for groups that aid African American children, and tried my best  to treat all people equally and fairly.  What matters is that there still might have been, at some moment, a subconscious racist thought in my mind  and there is no way to prove otherwise. Even if I underwent hypnosis to retrieve it, it would be far too late to apologize for it.  Therefore,  I should just hang myself.  Not that that would be enough, of course, it would never atone for the history of my race, but it would be a step in the right direction.

No comment.

11 hours ago, Stinamaia said:

Thank you for the video SnapeCharmer. Of course, now I have hair jealousy, skin jealousy and make-up jealousy, but I shall cope.  Maybe.

i knew a man who as a college student volunteered to work in voter registration in the Deep South in the 1960s.  That was a dangerous time for those of you who might not know.  People both white and black were beaten and some murdered.  This man's goodness and dedication for doing that can not be dismissed.  But here's the thing.  20 years later he espoused racist views.  He was very down on black people and not just black people.  Even more, he hated people from the Indian subcontinent.  I don't base this on casual comments he made.  He was very clear about his feelings.  Interestingly, the last I knew of him, he planned to go to live in Turkey where he had lived in the Peace Corps.  So the guy had done good things in his life.  He may not have self described as a racist, but he had some pretty bigoted views, and it's hard for me to see him giving a job to a black person or an Indian person. 

My point is this:  Everyone who is not a certified saint carries some bias within them.  This woman wasn't saying we are bad or irredeemable.  She was saying those views needed to be thought about and recognized.  When we hurt other people, we should feel bad about it and apologize if possible.  I did not see her condemning anyone.

There is a great book called The Hidden Brain.  It's not just about ethnic bias, but about how all sorts of things in our brains influence our decisions, our thinking, even though we believe ourselves to be completely rational.   A test as been developed to help quantify what the developers call Implicit Bias.  It's an interesting exercise, and frankly it scared me.  You are supposed to do it as rapidly as you can.  I don't necessarily trust the results with me because I have a facility with testing situations.  It's not just about black and white people.  It's broader than that.  If you like to examine yourself and challenge yourself, try it out.  Ease into it of you must.  I did. https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/takeatest.html

Okay? I agree, she's a beautiful and smart young woman. As to your point, this is what I gathered from her commentary as well. Thanks for sharing that Harvard link!

Edited August 4, 2017 by SnapeCharmer

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 8/2/2017 at 11:49 AM, rebel2u said:

No worries at all, jade.black--I'm afraid I get a little over-sensitive at times.  Lee was referred to as a southern racist several times, and I get my hackles up when I hear that--I'm the one talking back to the tv, saying, "We're not all like that!"    The south---gotta represent  ; )

No, you're obviously not all like that.  Now.  And not even always, but you can't deny history, and its effects. 

I do have to say that I just love the fact that this intelligent discussion is going on here about a stupid trashy reality TV show.  Y'all rock.

[ridethemaverick]

On 8/3/2017 at 8:16 AM, JudyObscure said:

She is a beautiful young lady and she has a lovely voice and did an excellent job of recapping all the things the men said. She mentioned that she didn't think apologies could be sincere unless they happened in the moment.  Then she sums it up with her praise for Anthony and the things he said about how people might think they aren't racist and may not remember doing or saying racist things, but they still probably have had a subconscious racist thought at some time.

I think she speaks for a lot of people and the final message I, as a white person, take from her is that it doesn't really matter what I actually do, whether I have marched in civil rights marches, always voted for affirmative action, volunteered for groups that aid African American children, and tried my best  to treat all people equally and fairly.  What matters is that there still might have been, at some moment, a subconscious racist thought in my mind  and there is no way to prove otherwise. Even if I underwent hypnosis to retrieve it, it would be far too late to apologize for it.  Therefore,  I should just hang myself.  Not that that would be enough, of course, it would never atone for the history of my race, but it would be a step in the right direction.

Lmao.

[ladle]

Why must Dean insist on dressing like a ventriloquist dummy? 

[rebel2u]

2 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

No, you're obviously not all like that.  Now.  And not even always, but you can't deny history, and its effects. 

I do have to say that I just love the fact that this intelligent discussion is going on here about a stupid trashy reality TV show.  Y'all rock.

So because I, or anyone else, is Southern, we're tainted because of what happened 150 years ago that we had no control over, no matter how we act now or what  we believe today?  The North had manufacturing and used child labor.  The West, Southwest and South wanted more land and displaced American Indians onto reservations in horrible conditions that contiune today.  Japanese Americans were placed in camps in WWII.  Horrible things have happened in this country that everyone regrets.  I would like to think that people in South Dakota, Virginia and New York who are trying to be honest and kind can do so without being judged on what happened in the past.  Uh, tired of defending myself---on what I wrote hours ago  ; )  See everyone next year when The Bachelor premieres

[StatisticalOutlier]

18 minutes ago, ladle said:

Why must Dean insist on dressing like a ventriloquist dummy? 

A ventriloquist dummy going to his prom, no less.