S13.E10: The Men Tell All

[OnceSane]

Quote

Rachel and her most memorable men return to discuss their experiences. Included: Lee and Kenny set the record straight about their volatile relationship; Blake and Lucas come face-to-face; and Adam talks about being sent home before the hometown visits.

[Armchair Critic]

Dean + biggest audience applause = next Bachelor.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Armchair Critic

[Ohwell]

I don't mind if Dean is the next Bachelor.

Kenny looks good.  Yum.

[dizzyd]

I love how the audience got into an uproar and Kenny wagged his hell no finger at Lucas when he told Dean to shut up. Like don't you be talking to Dean that way. Ah, the MTA is always so fun.

[Ms Blue Jay]

29 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

Dean + biggest audience applause = next Bachelor.

The other guys were doing the "We're not worthy" motion!

Like yes I think Dean is a dream and a half but what was that all about?!

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[dizzyd]

I think Dean may be a good Bachelor in a few years, but better Kenny right now if Mac and he would be ok with some more separation. She's too cute.

[Bnwcat]

I want Will to be the next bachelor.

[dizzyd]

I'm so glad I don't follow all this social media crap. There's zero defense and yet Lee thinks he's misunderstood and misrepresented. What a sorry excuse for a man!

I hope they announce the next B tonight. I don't want it to be F2 or F3.

[dizzyd]

I'm sad that hottie Asian Blake isn't there tonight, we hardly knew him, but he was beautiful.

I'm so pleased at how well spoken most of these guys are.

[bosawks]

Chris Harrison reading Lee's tweets in that oh so disappointed tone made me want to poke him in the eye. You guys cast the SOB, you idiots.

Lee's leaning back, slouched look made him look like a turtle. A shame, since I really like turtles.

[LilJen]

I say that Chris Harrison is the new Dick Clark. Dude hasn't aged since this series began. Thumbs up to his stylists and cosmetic surgeon.

[BuckeyeLou]

1 hour ago, Armchair Critic said:

Dean + biggest audience applause = next Bachelor.

Yep, thats what I thought, plus he's cute :)

[LilJen]

Not sure I believe that Lee is magically transformed into a totally woke dude.

[meatball77]

10 minutes ago, LilJen said:

I say that Chris Harrison is the new Dick Clark. Dude hasn't aged since this series began. Thumbs up to his stylists and cosmetic surgeon.

I read an article that talked about his non-aging a week or so ago.  He claimed that it was all his makeup person.

 

Kenny seemed like he was auditioning for The Bachelor tonight.  His plucky daughter could help eliminate girls (and she's old enough that it wouldn't seem too exploitative because I'm sure she's got a great instagram account)

[dizzyd]

I believe everyone deserves a chance to redeem themselves, but my belief doesn't extend to Lee. He can just shut the fuck up and get off my screen, because I can't believe a word of his apologies.

[SnapeCharmer]

This episode is a hot mess. Dean for next Bachelor? Um, no. But I like that he spoke up about the Lee situation.

ETA: But if it was down to him and Peter...I'd take Dean any day.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Siggystardust

[JenE4]

This was the most Amazing T[M/W]TA in Bachelor/ette History! Usually this show is not much more than filler with people we don't even remember trying to make a name for themselves. But every word/reaction was on point! We needed "The More You Know" stars shooting every which way 'round here! I can't even begin to name all of the show MVPs: everyone who patiently explained Lee's racist and/or negative behavior, especially when framing it as they know he's better than that. Yet, everyone made very great points on all topics and about all of the people/drama throughout the entire show.

The "you made my Grinchy heart grow three sizes" award to Kenny and Makenzie. Kenny for Bachelor and make all of the dates to Disney amusement parks with Makenzie tagging along!

Biggest laugh of the night, someone talking about Whaaboom: "Whaam-bye!" Until Josiah eating all the oysters and handfuls of skewered veggies and mystery meats--living his best life, loving the Norwegian food. Was just missing his  trophy full of champagne.

One burning mystery: Everyone was sitting in a blue barstool except for the guy in the back right sitting in a Buster Bluth hand chair. Beware of loose seal?! Wait, that's tickle monster!! OMG, a "gianter" hand! Nice work, producers. New biggest laugh.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I forgot how amazing Josiah is to watch.  Could easily watch an hour of his antics each week.

[BuckeyeLou]

I agree with the folks above, Lee did NOT seem sincere or genuine in his apologies.  Seemed like he went on the show with an 'act" so he could be noticed, I do not think he was interested in Rachel at all.  Then, when he realized that the viewers saw him as a 'bad" person, then he decided to act all sad & apologetic.

[JoBeth70]

I liked that Rachel gave props to Adam and Matt and explained that the audience wasn't given a chance to see her relationships with each of them. They deserved that recognition. I still wish I'd seen more of Matt, he really intrigues me.

[mostlylurking]

I didn't watch the entire episode because MTA is generally a bore to me, but Demario did endear himself to me slightly when he told insignificant dude that he was insignificant (who was that??). I don't care what the nobodies have to say when they try and get their two seconds of fame. I don't care how mean my husband thinks I am;)

 

Lee took up way too much time on the show and in this episode, but I guess he did the only thing he could under the circumstances, just take all the justified criticism. I grudgingly have to say I liked his suit; most of the other guys looked a mess.  Can he go away now!?

 

Kennys daughter is a very poised young lady and he should be proud. I stopped watching after Chris interviewed Dean on the couch. I still think he's dreamy but his hair and wardrobe needed some help.  I wish we could have seen more of Adam and Matt on the show. Poor Fred and Alex didn't get to say a word ( at least the parts I saw). I'm  ready for this season to be over.

Edited August 1, 2017 by mostlylurking

[DEL901]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Dean + biggest audience applause = next Bachelor.

They announced Dean was going to be on Bachelor Pad.  That usually isn't a good sign that they will be the Bachelor.  Only Nick managed that trick, and he was very aware of how his appearance was a chance a redeeming his image.  Dean already has a good image.  Bachelor Pad is a risky move if he wants to be the Bachelor.

1 hour ago, Bnwcat said:

I want Will to be the next bachelor.

Me too.  Handsome, articulate and seems nice.  But I can't see them having a black bachelor right after a black bachelorette.  Anyone know how Rachel's ratings were?

[yorklee2]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Dean + biggest audience applause = next Bachelor.

You know even though I know Dean will be on BIP it still almost seemed as though he was being auditioned for the next Bachelor. I thought he seemed very articulate, well spoken and yes more mature. I think the break up with Rachel has a lot to do with that. Of the three that's left I would much rather see Dean as Bachelor than any of them.

[AllyCat7]

I cannot speak for all of Lee's actions because I didn't watch the entire season. But I didn't like how the men practically forced him to admit he is racist when he may not feel that way. His tweet, although wildly ignorant, isn't in itself racist. He obviously doesn't know what the NAACP does and needs to be educated about it. But what he wrote is different from someone saying something like "all black people are like this or that". He was ignorant and uneducated and a fool to speak on things he was ignorant about. But for people to force him to admit that he is a racist was rather extreme. That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation...and I don't think there was evidence to pin that on him 100%. Even Kenny admitted as much. So why was it ok for all the guys on The Men Tell All to bully him into admitting that? Not cool.

[awaken]

 Definitely looked like Kenny was auditioning to be the bachelor! You know how this show loves to explore the single parent angle!   Too tempting for them to resist. 

 Lee's body language spoke volumes. He was very stiff, leaning back away from whoever he was talking to. 

 I'm thinking either she doesn't choose one of the final three, orthey break up soon and she goes for Kenny, Fred, Or one of those other great  guys 

[Ms Blue Jay]

29 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

 But what he wrote is different from someone saying something like "all black people are like this or that". 

Oh please.  He compared the KKK to the NAACP and put the KKK in the favourable light in that comparison.  It takes 2 seconds of research to know how fucked up and disgusting a comparison that is.  There is zero reason to defend this.  

Quote

That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation...and I don't think there was evidence to pin that on him 100%. Even Kenny admitted as much. So why was it ok for all the guys on The Men Tell All to bully him into admitting that? Not cool.

For goodness sakes.  Pointing out extreme racism is not bullying.  My god.  Ruining his reputation?!  Why are you so worried about that?  He dug his own grave with those tweets.  Why is your concern defending Lee over defending the NAACP from what he said about them?  What has Lee ever done for anybody except be hateful?

That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation

That is exactly how Lee should have looked at his tweet about the NAACP.  Lee can tweet that about the NAACP without any evidence to back this up, yet nobody's allowed to call him out on his racism, for which we have evidence?

I just.....

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[TVGlow]

2 hours ago, dizzyd said:

I love how the audience got into an uproar and Kenny wagged his hell no finger at Lucas when he told Dean to shut up. Like don't you be talking to Dean that way. Ah, the MTA is always so fun.

I rewatched this three times, once in slo-mo. Funniest clip of the night! 

[yorklee2]

54 minutes ago, DEL901 said:

They announced Dean was going to be on Bachelor Pad.  That usually isn't a good sign that they will be the Bachelor.  Only Nick managed that trick, and he was very aware of how his appearance was a chance a redeeming his image.  Dean already has a good image.  Bachelor Pad is a risky move if he wants to be the Bachelor.

Me too.  Handsome, articulate and seems nice.  But I can't see them having a black bachelor right after a black bachelorette.  Anyone know how Rachel's ratings were?

I know it's a minor point and you probably didn't realize you were doing it but it's Bachelor in Paradise not Bachelor Pad.

[Riplet68]

Instagram post wasn't Rachel. Move along

Edited August 1, 2017 by Riplet68

[Kira53]

When they did the little mini summaries of Rachel 's relationship with the final three I think Bryan really got the winners edit.  It seem like the editors were trying to make us fall in love with Bryan's relationship with Rachel when you know a lot of us are in love with Peter for Rachel or Peter for ourselves.  I know I'd rather wait and see if I could get the whole package with Peter then to go for the hot sex with Bryan.   I don't know, it just looks like the relationship with Brian will burn very brightly until it burns out but the relationship was in a growth arc  with Peter. To me he showed real interest real listening real mental and emotional connection as well as sexual attraction. Others say something else. I just know you love someone from the first minute it can burn brightly and burn out quick because there's nowhere else to go but down.

 I do hope that it does work out for Bryan and Rachel.  It's just a TV show for us, although it's real life for them.  I just know the editors don't allow us to be privy to so much.  Perhaps Brian had a deeper relationship with Rachel than we we saw. Apparently Matt and Adam had a lot more going with herand we never saw any of that. I do like how they presented themselves tonight and I really wish we had gotten to know them during the season.

[Jax7917]

I saw in a few interviews with dean , he actually said he doesn't want the bachelor gig because he's not ready for it and has a lot to learn first .. I actually admire him for that . Makes me think he maybe actually came on the show for dare I say it .. " the right reasons " .. he really is freakin hot though 

[cryptaknight]

56 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

I cannot speak for all of Lee's actions because I didn't watch the entire season. But I didn't like how the men practically forced him to admit he is racist when he may not feel that way. His tweet, although wildly ignorant, isn't in itself racist. He obviously doesn't know what the NAACP does and needs to be educated about it. But what he wrote is different from someone saying something like "all black people are like this or that". He was ignorant and uneducated and a fool to speak on things he was ignorant about. But for people to force him to admit that he is a racist was rather extreme. That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation...and I don't think there was evidence to pin that on him 100%. Even Kenny admitted as much. So why was it ok for all the guys on The Men Tell All to bully him into admitting that? Not cool.

Dude. If Lee doesn't want to be seen as racist then he probably shouldn't be making incredibly racist statements via Twitter, and he shouldn't have been targeting black men in the house, making up false stories about them being aggressive toward him. He deserved everything he got, and all he did in response was give lip service about wanting to "learn" and "be educated." It takes 30 seconds of googling to figure out what the NAACP does. It's not Kenny's, Josiah's, Anthony's, Will's, or Rachel's job to educate him. If he wants to learn so badly, there are resources out there. For me, it was very telling that he looked utterly confused when Anthony was trying to point out to him that he may have innate prejudices that he's unaware of simply because of the way he grew up and that he needs to unlearn them. Then Lee had the gall to respond to Anthony with the well known backhanded compliment about how well-spoken Anthony was. God almighty. Lee has no interest in bettering anything other than his public image. He's lucky the rest of the men decided to go high and hug it out or whatever.

 

I don't feel one iota sorry for Lee. In fact, I wish they would have taken the time to dig into some of his misogyny, as well. If he wasn't already sucking so much time away from the rest of the men there, that is. I feel sorry for men like Alex, who seems lovely and didn't get a word in tonight, or men like Adam and Matt who barely appeared on the show despite making the top six because Lee's antics took up so much air time.

[AllyCat7]

31 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Oh please.  He compared the KKK to the NAACP and put the KKK in the favourable light in that comparison.  It takes 2 seconds of research to know how fucked up and disgusting a comparison that is.  There is zero reason to defend this.  

For goodness sakes.  Pointing out extreme racism is not bullying.  My god.  Ruining his reputation?!  Why are you so worried about that?  He dug his own grave with those tweets.  Why is your concern defending Lee over defending the NAACP from what he said about them?  What has Lee ever done for anybody except be hateful?

 

 

That is exactly how Lee should have looked at his tweet about the NAACP.  Lee can tweet that about the NAACP without any evidence to back this up, yet nobody's allowed to call him out on his racism, for which we have evidence?

I just.....

Being ignorant about what the NAACP does to the point that you compare it to the KKK does not automatically make someone a racist. He's just ignorant and has really bad judgement. Him googling what the NAACP does would have cleared things up for him, but he didn't, and, for that, he's stupid. I know it's all the rage to throw the label "racist" at people these days, whether they are truly racist or not, but that doesn't make it right or accurate. You can keep throwing serious accusations at people who you don't know based on unsubstantial evidence. And I will choose otherwise. We will NOT agree. And that's ok. Bye.

Just now, cryptaknight said:

Dude. If Lee doesn't want to be seen as racist then he probably shouldn't be making incredibly racist statements via Twitter, and he shouldn't have been targeting black men in the house, making up false stories about them being aggressive toward him. He deserved everything he got, and all he did in response was give lip service about wanting to "learn" and "be educated." It takes 30 seconds of googling to figure out what the NAACP does. It's not Kenny's, Josiah's, Anthony's, Will's, or Rachel's job to educate him. If he wants to learn so badly, there are resources out there. For me, it was very telling that he looked utterly confused when Anthony was trying to point out to him that he may have innate prejudices that he's unaware of simply because of the way he grew up and that he needs to unlearn them. Then Lee had the gall to respond to Anthony with the well known backhanded compliment about how well-spoken Anthony was. God almighty. Lee has no interest in bettering anything other than his public image. He's lucky the rest of the men decided to go high and hug it out or whatever.

 

I don't feel one iota sorry for Lee. In fact, I wish they would have taken the time to dig into some of his misogyny, as well. If he wasn't already sucking so much time away from the rest of the men there, that is. I feel sorry for men like Alex, who seems lovely and didn't get a word in tonight, or men like Adam and Matt who barely appeared on the show despite making the top six because Lee's antics took up so much air time.

Did it ever occur to you that he could have been picking on the black men because he was THREATENED by them? The bachelorette was black, so he probably felt that the black guys had the upper hand. Even Kenny admitted as much. Kenny himself said that he felt that Lee was just in over his head and felt that the other guys were better. So you would take your own views over Kenny's who was not only in the house but also a target of Lee himself. I think I'll go with Kenny on this one.

[ridethemaverick]

After Dean's social media shenanigans, I have no desire to see him as the next bachelor. 

I hate that this turned into the Lee show. Zzzzzzzz

[cryptaknight]

I'm not sure why anyone would be so invested in defending Lee. Even if you somehow can't see that he engaged in racist behavior, both on the show and on Twitter, surely it's obvious that he made statements that were harmful and hurtful. I can't imagine wasting time feeling sorry for a fully grown man who can't use a search engine or visit a library for some reason.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Quote

You can keep throwing serious accusations at people who you don't know based on unsubstantial evidence. And I will choose otherwise.

Lee threw a serious accusation at the NAACP.  Did you notice that part? Lee had no evidence for his claim, and yet I have evidence for my claim that Lee is racist.  Out of all the organizations in the world Lee chose to insult, Lee chose the NAACP - http://www.naacp.org/.  Do you think he just randomly chose an abbreviation and decided to insult it in order to defend the KKK in comparison to it?  You really think he didn't know what the NAACP was before he tweeted that?  What do you think he thought it stood for?  The thinking face emoji goes here.

Quote

 That is not a word or accusation you throw around lightly.

Should you make a comparison between an organization and the KKK lightly?

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Nowhere]

2 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

Being ignorant about what the NAACP does to the point that you compare it to the KKK does not automatically make someone a racist. He's just ignorant and has really bad judgement. Him googling what the NAACP does would have cleared things up for him, but he didn't, and, for that, he's stupid. I know it's all the rage to throw the label "racist" at people these days, whether they are truly racist or not, but that doesn't make it right or accurate. You can keep throwing serious accusations at people who you don't know based on unsubstantial evidence. And I will choose otherwise. We will NOT agree. And that's ok. Bye.

Regardless of whether or not Lee knows what the NAACP does, he clearly knows what the KKK does. Show me where the NAACP ever lynched a man or burned a cross. It's a ridiculous comparison. 

[AllyCat7]

Just now, cryptaknight said:

I'm not sure why anyone would be so invested in defending Lee. Even if you somehow can't see that he engaged in racist behavior, both on the show and on Twitter, surely it's obvious that he made statements that were harmful and hurtful. I can't imagine wasting time feeling sorry for a fully grown man who can't use a search engine or visit a library for some reason.

I didn't defend Lee until tonight when I saw how harshly all of the other guys were towards him (even after the apologized)--to the point of making him admit to something he truly felt he wasn't. That wasn't cool. I did NOT care for Lee or defend Lee until tonight. I found him just as annoying and troublesome as everyone else. But that doesn't mean that he should be attacked by the whole house and to be forced to admit he is racist when he might not be. That is not a word or accusation you throw around lightly.

[cryptaknight]

7 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

I didn't defend Lee until tonight when I saw how harshly all of the other guys were towards him (even after the apologized)--to the point of making him admit to something he truly felt he wasn't. That wasn't cool. I did NOT care for Lee or defend Lee until tonight. I found him just as annoying and troublesome as everyone else. But that doesn't mean that he should be attacked by the whole house and to be forced to admit he is racist when he might not be. That is not a word or accusation you throw around lightly.

They were not overly harsh. The evening ended with handshakes and hugs- which was more than Lee deserved, to be honest. If he is not racist, his behavior says otherwise. If he really "hates racism" as he said tonight, then why leave that tweet on his account once it "got out there"? Why behave as he did toward Eric and Kenny in the house? He said what he said and did not express regret for it until tonight on the show. That tweet was over a year old. It was also not the only problematic tweet he's made. You said upthread that you did not not watch the entire season; you might not be seeing what the rest of us saw when it comes to Lee, in that case. 

Are you upset that everyone ganged up on Lucas, too? Because everyone had a lot to say about Whaboom! Likewise, Demario. Lee got a lot of focus because the things he said affected a lot of people, and because he was dishonest with Rachel and affected her relationships with Kenny and Eric with his dishonesty. But he was not the only man who came under fire tonight.

Idk. It just sits wrong with me that being called racist is somehow worse than actually doing racist things. 

Edited August 1, 2017 by cryptaknight

[AllyCat7]

3 minutes ago, Nowhere said:

Regardless of whether or not Lee knows what the NAACP does, he clearly knows what the KKK does. Show me where the NAACP ever lynched a man or burned a cross. It's a ridiculous comparison. 

I know it's a ridiculous comparison, but I know what the NAACP is. Maybe he never heard about it until recently...maybe he grew up very sheltered and in a homogeneous environment. He was a buffoon to speak of something he had no idea about. But I still don't think that makes him racist. He didn't say anything derogatory towards black people as a race. he just made a really stupid and ignorant statement about something that he knows nothing about. He admitted as much and apologized. Why must he admit to being a racist on top of that if he doesn't think he is?

[Kira53]

1 hour ago, AllyCat7 said:

I cannot speak for all of Lee's actions because I didn't watch the entire season. But I didn't like how the men practically forced him to admit he is racist when he may not feel that way. His tweet, although wildly ignorant, isn't in itself racist. He obviously doesn't know what the NAACP does and needs to be educated about it. But what he wrote is different from someone saying something like "all black people are like this or that". He was ignorant and uneducated and a fool to speak on things he was ignorant about. But for people to force him to admit that he is a racist was rather extreme. That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation...and I don't think there was evidence to pin that on him 100%. Even Kenny admitted as much. So why was it ok for all the guys on The Men Tell All to bully him into admitting that? Not cool.

 

1 hour ago, AllyCat7 said:

I cannot speak for all of Lee's actions because I didn't watch the entire season. But I didn't like how the men practically forced him to admit he is racist when he may not feel that way. His tweet, although wildly ignorant, isn't in itself racist. He obviously doesn't know what the NAACP does and needs to be educated about it. But what he wrote is different from someone saying something like "all black people are like this or that". He was ignorant and uneducated and a fool to speak on things he was ignorant about. But for people to force him to admit that he is a racist was rather extreme. That is not something to put on someone unless you are 100% certain of it, as it can really ruin someone's reputation...and I don't think there was evidence to pin that on him 100%. Even Kenny admitted as much. So why was it ok for all the guys on The Men Tell All to bully him into admitting that? Not cool.

 If you had seem the whole season you might have a different impression and a different point of view regarding Lee.  The men didn't see the season, they lived through it.  The men saw and experienced a lot more than the audience of Lee's behavior.  Their point of view was based on how a lot of them were targeted and treated and not just a tweet.  The tweet was the icing on the poop.

[cryptaknight]

Again, Google exists. Maybe he should have used it before comparing an organization to the KKK, if he wasn't quite sure what they did.

Here is a link to some of the other tweets Lee posted before coming on the show. You can draw your own conclusions, I guess. https://www.bustle.com/p/what-did-lee-tweet-before-the-bachelorette-his-alleged-comments-were-insensitive-to-so-many-people-73452

[Ms Blue Jay]

19 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

Did it ever occur to you that he could have been picking on the black men because he was THREATENED by them? The bachelorette was black, so he probably felt that the black guys had the upper hand.

Aw.  Poor Lee.  Lashing out by calling black men 'aggressive' for simply existing in the same room with him is a good way to deal with this!  

[AllyCat7]

4 minutes ago, cryptaknight said:

They were not overly harsh. The evening ended with handshakes and hugs- which was more than Lee deserved, to be honest. If he is not racist, his behavior says otherwise. If he really "hates racism" as he said tonight, then why leave that tweet on his account once it "got out there"? Why behave as he did toward Eric and Kenny in the house? He said what he said and did not express regret for it until tonight on the show. That tweet was over a year old. It was also not the only problematic tweet he's made. You said upthread that you did not not watch the entire season; you might not be seeing what the rest of us saw when it comes to Lee, in that case. 

Are you upset that everyone ganged up on Lucas, too? Because everyone had a lot to say about Whaboom! Likewise, Demario. Lee got a lot of focus because the things he said affected a lot of people, and because he was dishonest with Rachel and affected her relationships with Kenny and Eric with his dishonesty. But he was not the only man who came under fire tonight.

Idk. It just sits wrong with me that being called racist is somehow worse than actually doing racist things. 

You are right. I didn't see the whole season, but I did see how he was towards Kenny and it made me very upset. I was pissed, trust me. I felt so bad for Kenny...he was my boy. But Kenny said that he didn't think Lee's behavior stemmed from racism as much as jealousy or some sort, so I will take him on that. As for other incidents in the house, I can't speak on that. And I didn't see any other of his tweets. I was just speaking about the one in question that they were showing on the ATFR show--the one that they were using to peg him as a racist. If they had more evidence, they should have showed it. I will look it up myself now. I still stand by what I said that that one tweet alone doesn't prove that he's racist. I will continue to do more research. Also, I NEVER said that being called a racist is worse than being a racist. I cited just a couple of things that could be pegged on non-racist motivations (his behavior towards Kenny and the one tweet about the NAACP). That's all I can speak about because I haven't seen the rest. Of course being a racist is horrible. I know that.

[yorklee2]

30 minutes ago, Jaclyn88 said:

I saw in a few interviews with dean , he actually said he doesn't want the bachelor gig because he's not ready for it and has a lot to learn first .. I actually admire him for that . Makes me think he maybe actually came on the show for dare I say it .. " the right reasons " .. he really is freakin hot though 

Oh well I guess we won't get to see his handsome face as Bach and what he said makes a lot of sense. Actually makes me like him that much more for being perceptive enough to realize that. But still..would have been nice to see him as lead. Maybe he will reconsider if next season's bachelors are all duds and he's not seriously involved with someone. We can always hope.

Edited August 1, 2017 by yorklee2

[AllyCat7]

3 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Aw.  Poor Lee.  Lashing out by calling black men 'aggressive' for simply existing in the same room with him is a good way to deal with this!  

I didn't say his behavior was right, did I? I was just reiterating what Kenny said about his motivations. Please don't put words in my mouth.

7 minutes ago, Kira53 said:

 

 If you had seem the whole season you might have a different impression and a different point of view regarding Lee.  The men didn't see the season, they lived through it.  The men saw and experienced a lot more than the audience of Lee's behavior.  Their point of view was based on how a lot of them were targeted and treated and not just a tweet.  The tweet was the icing on the poop.

Ok. Then they should have said that on the show. They kept focusing on that one tweet. I am thrown, though, on what Kenny said. He said he didn't feel that Lee's behavior was stemming from racism. So how does that weigh in all of this?

[Ms Blue Jay]

Kenny was being diplomatic because he was on television and he knows how much certain people freak out when you say the word 'racist' in public.  Unfortunately minorities are often forced to minimize their experiences and keep quiet because many people don't like to be reminded of their major privilege or face being educated in these types of situations.  That's my theory, anyway.  

Edited August 1, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[Nowhere]

36 minutes ago, AllyCat7 said:

I didn't defend Lee until tonight when I saw how harshly all of the other guys were towards him (even after the apologized)--to the point of making him admit to something he truly felt he wasn't. That wasn't cool. I did NOT care for Lee or defend Lee until tonight. I found him just as annoying and troublesome as everyone else. But that doesn't mean that he should be attacked by the whole house and to be forced to admit he is racist when he might not be. That is not a word or accusation you throw around lightly.

I think you're sensitive to the feelings of others and even when they are very wrong, you don't like to see them picked on. You perceived the situation as the men ganging up on Lee and that, since Lee doesn't FEEL racist, he shouldn't have to be told he acts like it. I understand feeling sorry for someone, especially when they apologize and it isn't received. But it was received. I can understand why they were so upset about his statements though. I would have liked to see the other half of the tweet! Sorry but let this be his learning experience. He had to be held accountable in order to learn. 

I believe that some racists and misogynists don't even know that that is what they are, maybe because that's all they've seen their whole lives. He said he didn't know the tweet was racist, but admitted that it was and denounced it. A lot of people need to learn how to admit when they're wrong. Good on Lee for doing that but man, I wanted to kill him during the season. I really hope this is a real change for him and a real awakening. It is possible that it is. I just have my doubts.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Nowhere

[Kira53]

I think it was very smart of Kenny to say that he didn't think that Lee's behavior was based upon racism.  Kenny has an entertainment career to be concerned about and when he gets interviews he doesn't want to be discussing Lee for the rest of his career.  I'm sure he'd like his career to be expanded from his exposure on the show.  He doesn't want to  be the big spokesman for what's racist and what isn't racist in the US. He would love to be the next bachelor and racism talk would really X him out of that.  I don't believe is in the running for the bachelor but he can hope.   Be other men don't have active careers and were not targeted by Lee.

Kenny also knew that the other men would point out different aspects of what went on. Since it's not a documentary the show isn't going to present all of the "evidence".  it's a reality show and tptb love having some kind of controversy. In my opinion, that's why they picked Lee.  They do thorough investigations and I do not believe they hadn't gone through his Twitter feed.  Some producer may have prompted him to target certain contestants. He still responsible for the choices he made.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Kira53

[Kira53]

19 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Kenny was being diplomatic because he was on television and he knows how much certain people freak out when you say the word 'racist' in public.  Unfortunately minorities are often forced to minimize their experiences and keep quiet because many people don't like to be reminded of their major privilege or face being educated in these types of situations.  That's my theory, anyway.  

Amen.  Perfectly stated.  Yes diplomatic.  I'm  not so sure I would have shown that level of emotional intelligence. But Kenny is used to being interviewed on a smaller level and that does help to handle such sensitive questions with an eye toward managing your career.