S03.E08: Episode 8

[nodorothyparker]

I didn't think so either, but I realize your mileage may vary.  It's not unrealistic to think Ross is always going to have a tender or soft spot for Elizabeth considering their history and going back and rewatching it I thought the scene reflected that, but it's also fairly clear he finally! and thankfully considers that door closed.

[dubbel zout]

That's how I saw the church scene between Ross and Elizabeth, too. I think Ross kissed Elizabeth a lot for someone saying, essentially, goodbye, but the point was made that the two of them have put their romantic feelings for each other behind them for good.

As for Demelza being too modern, there have always been people ahead of societal norms. Usually they're at the top and bottom of society, as they have the least to lose, and Demelza was pretty close to the bottom before she married Ross. She's not going to turn off her feelings or ambitions just because she's Mistress Poldark. I understand why people feel she's somewhat anachronistic, but if no one pushed, nothing would change.

[rebecca dewinter]

2 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

That's how I saw the church scene between Ross and Elizabeth, too. I think Ross kissed Elizabeth a lot for someone saying, essentially, goodbye, but the point was made that the two of them have put their romantic feelings for each other behind them for good.

As for Demelza being too modern, there have always been people ahead of societal norms. Usually they're at the top and bottom of society, as they have the least to lose, and Demelza was pretty close to the bottom before she married Ross. She's not going to turn off her feelings or ambitions just because she's Mistress Poldark. I understand why people feel she's somewhat anachronistic, but if no one pushed, nothing would change.

I don't mind her being ahead of her time in her attitudes, but she was completely unrealistic about what was legally possible for her at the time (taking their son).

[nodorothyparker]

Has Demelza ever shown herself to be particularly ambitious though?  She clearly enjoys being received and treated as an equal by the "gentle folks." so I guess we could say that she's progressive in not just accepting the fairly rigid class structures of her time.  Beyond that, she mostly seems to want to be happy and loved in her marriage and for everyone around her to happy and comfortable as well.

If she wants to be regarded as more of an equal within her marriage and her family, that's certainly her right to feel that way and fight for it, but at some point she's going to butt up against her legal and societal limitations as a married woman.  Which for all practical purposes, she is essentially Ross's legal chattel.  If he had ever decided he wanted to be like Whitworth, for example, and told her absolutely not, she was not throwing him out of his own bed or denying him his "marital rights," she wouldn't have had much recourse.  She doesn't have Caroline's money or connections to smooth any path beyond that, and realistically even Caroline could only go about so far with it if Dwight wanted to press the issue.

[dubbel zout]

I think Demelza is ambitious in that she's not willing to shut up and do whatever Ross says; she challenges him, and she has some ideas for what she wants her life with him to be. You might prefer to call that "progressive," and that's fine. I think we are saying basically the same thing.

My main point is that there are always people who are unhappy with their lot in life (George, anyone?), and the way they try to change that can work for or against them and society. The show would be really boring if everyone stayed in their lane, so to speak. As would real life, IMO.

[ScoobieDoobs]

On 11/14/2017 at 8:54 AM, rebecca dewinter said:

Often times, I feel like Demelza is a woman from 2017 who accidentally time traveled to the 1780s a la Outlander. She feels terribly out of sync with the period. In terms of 18th century marriages, she literally hit the jackpot considering where she came from and how few rights women had in those days. I feel like she is looking at her marriage from a 21st century perspective and it throws me off on this show.

I'm still baffled by that loopy speech she gave Ross, where she pretty much tells him she's thinking about having an affair.  And his reaction was even weirder & made no sense.  No anger from Ross, just indifference, & noting the way she looks at Armitage is the way she used to look at him.  Weak.

And I didn't care for that dream shtick on what Ross should have told Demelza about his meeting with Elizabeth.  But I get why it was done.  It was really the only way we'd know what Ross is thinking, since he rarely shares much about his thoughts -- other than occasionally to Demelza.  Altho he did surprisingly share a lot in his meeting with Lord Falmouth.

You know, count me as one who always thought Heida was the weak link in this show.  I always thought she stunk.  Not anymore.  Elizabeth & Heida are getting interesting.

Edited November 17, 2017 by ScoobieDoobs

[rebecca dewinter]

I almost got the sense that maybe Demelza was trying to get a rise out of Ross with that speech, kind of a continuation of her last week when she mentioned Armitage paying her attention. Especially since she's seen Ross fly into a jealous rage when it comes to Elizabeth, I think she expected a little more reaction from him.

[shal]

So many feelings about this episode!!

I agree that Demelza seems to be overreacting. Sure, Ross hasn’t constantly been showering her with affection, and he’s been a bit cold, but it doesn’t feel like enough to me that she would consider adultery. Still, I don’t object to it because she may be in the wrong, but I feel this is the first time we are seeing her flaws. She has been an almost saintly character up to this point. I think it is inline with her character that she tends to doubt whether Ross values her, and needs his attention. I also think he is mean to her sometimes. Rewatching their conversation at the end, I thought it strange that Demelza feels a need to love “another”. If Ross showed her attention, would that not be enough? And, isn’t it more justified that Ross slept w/ Elizabeth, an OLD flame, rather than Demelza having an affair with Hugh, who she met after Ross?

 

I liked the scene in the church, except for the kissing—it was a bit much for “fondness”. Heida Reed acted really well in it. 

ALSO, the PBS version cut out Sam’s plot line for this episode!! He met Trolly’s daughter 2 other times and had important conversations with her! Watch it on amazon prime if you have it. 

[ScoobieDoobs]

Boy, I wonder if Farthing had to practice hard to get that clenched look (with his chin jutting out & pointed up to the sky) just right.  He's really good at giving that look.  

Idk, when George's & Ross's faces are barely an inch apart, I get very nervous.

[ComeWhatMay]

I think Demelza is looking for the level of feeling from Ross that Demelza thinks Ross has for Elizabeth -- even though from my perspective, Ross left Elizabeth standing at the Trenwith window twice: first with Francis & then with George with the ultimate +1. I believe, but Demelza doesn't, that Ross & Elizabeth are "never, ever getting back together." I believe this not because of Ross & his real & imagined monologues, but because of what I saw from Elizabeth in that church.   

In Ross' imagined monologue to Demelza, Ross states he wronged Elizabeth (any admission of wrongdoing on Ross' part surprises me frankly), that 15 years ago Ross would have given the world for Elizabeth (first love can be that way, but I don't think Ross & Elizabeth were ever built or compatible for more than first love) & that he still found Elizabeth so very lovely (the kisses all over Elizabeth's face already said that to me). "You changed me" Demelza actually heard much the same song and dance before. Remember Ross' "imperfect love" Demelza vs. "idealized love" Elizabeth monologue? I'm actually glad Ross kept these thoughts to himself this time. Who is he trying to convince -- Demelza or himself?   

Perspective & knowing what you want is what you have is a gift. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Ross wasn't married with children when Elizabeth married Francis, but Ross didn't put up a fight then either. Elizabeth wants money & position, he sputtered at the time. In their conversation at the church, Ross reminded Elizabeth how George always looked at her -- & made a point of saying that he always knew it. Interesting. Unfathomable as it was to Ross (or George or Elizabeth herself for that matter) that Elizabeth would ever be with George & the depths to which Ross sunk to prevent it, here they all are. And, there was Ross coaching Elizabeth on how to maintain her fiction about Valentine and thereby maintain her marriage to George.  

But after Ross kissed Elizabeth all over her face, it was Elizabeth who actually said the word "goodbye" & walked away with her head held high. Ross just stood there looking verklempt. Maybe because Ross realized Elizabeth doesn't just have to be with George, she actually wants to be at this point? Toads! Other than finally having it out with Ross as she ought to long ago, I don't think Elizabeth was out of touch with the times and looking for a reunion in that church. I also think Ross' blase attitude about "George's son" Valentine was the final wake-up call Elizabeth needed to lob the Holy Water on the ghost of her love for Ross. Geoffrey Charles is blossoming at Harrow on George's dime (whatever George's intentions were sending him there) & Elizabeth was quite the lady of the manor eating strawberries in bed with her man -- a man who is not unpleasant to look at IMO, thinks she is the most beautiful woman in every room & would never let her go. George is a mess, but Elizabeth has seen way worse, her cousin is married to it, thanks to her & her husband. Channel your power for good, Elizabeth.

[Arwen Evenstar]

What exactly is Rowella’s end game? Blackmail? She wants Ossie for herself? Is she curious about sex and wants a Svengali?  I just can’t imagine she is sacrificing herself as a diversion so Ossie will stop tormenting poor Morwenna.  From the bodice ripping she did, she’s offered more than her toes.

[Sew Sumi]

Arwen! Good to see you!  As for Rowella, she's definitely offering up her services while Morwenna heals. But afterwards? All she can be is a sidepiece; it's not as if the marriage can be annulled with a baby in the mix. And of course, 18th century divorce has been discussed here ad nauseum. I'm sure there were plenty of marriages that operated this way back then; the wife refusing nookie, but a willing sister or cousin moves in, ostensibly as a "companion" for the wife, but has quite a different role. I could see Morwenna doing this to keep that oaf's hands off her. And there might even be financial compensation for her role. Their family is not well off, and it could be played off that Morwenna is sending them the money. 

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

I could see Morwenna doing this to keep that oaf's hands off her.

If Morwenna is pimping her younger, supposedly virgin sister to the monster, I'll never root for her again. 

From her first appearance, I thought Rowella seemed too worldly and bold to be as innocent as Morwenna thought she was.  I'm guessing Rowella has a wild streak and actually likes kinky sex with the slimey creature and maybe even hopes he'll kill Morwenna and make her his third wife. 

If Aunt Agatha were still here we could ask her for a Tarot reading on this.

[Arwen Evenstar]

Morwenna had a difficult birth and was under doctor’s orders to abstain while she heals. Rowella is definitely provocative and beguiling, and does not come off as innocent.  I shuddered and so did my hubs at his ogling her as she bathed or changed her clothes.  He almost lost his wad at the sight of her foot while she was bathing and forced himself on poor Morwenna.  I’m sure Rowella heard her sister screaming and begging to be left alone.  I can only imaging the hell and anguish Morwenna went through being forced to submit to such a monster.

11 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

And there might even be financial compensation for her role. Their family is not well off, and it could be played off that Morwenna is sending them the money. 

I’m not sure that’s the case. Ossie’s mother  was from a high born family, but he’s a foppish dandy, and clearly a spendthrift. George sold off Morwenna for £3000, a substantial sum for the times, but she would have had no access to the money.  I think he was probably as cash poor as the Chenoweths. Cash poor and property rich is still an issue with British aristocracy today, some of who cannot afford the upkeep, repairs, upgrades,taxes, or even heat their stately homes. As Sew said, a divorce or annulment would have been impossible given it took an act of Parliament .  And, since Ossie was a minister, the Anglican Church in those days took a hardline stance on divorce, particularly divorce and remarriage. For a minister to console himself with a mistress (and this being common knowledge), would have been unseemly, to say the least.

 

1 hour ago, JudyObscure said:

I'm guessing Rowella has a wild streak and actually likes kinky sex with the slimey creature and maybe even hopes he'll kill Morwenna and make her his third wife. 

If Aunt Agatha were still here we could ask her for a Tarot reading on this.

Oh, Aggie, how we miss you.  I think Aggs did a reading on Morwenna and Ossie, given how she literally glowered down at him from the staircase.  She knew this guy was bad juju, but knew she couldnt stop it. 

The actor is playing this role to the hilt.  He was asked about the toe sucking scene, to which he basically said that he wished it had been filmed later in the day  so he could have had alcohol, and he went on to say that “clean feet are very important , if one has to do a scene like this.” But since Ossie loved feet, he knew he had to commit to the role. He hated playing a brute, and even though it was acting, was  still concerned for the feelings of the actress playing Morwenna after the scenes, and refused to proceed with filming until she felt comfortable and knew she was ok.  At least we know the actor to be a class act.

[LJones41]

Why did Ross fail to take responsibility for his great-Aunt Agatha’s funeral and burial?  Just because she was staying with George and Elizabeth at Trenwith, does not mean her burial was their responsibility.  Aunt Agatha was Ross’ kinswoman.  He was head of the family.  Why did he fail to prevent George from placing Aunt Agatha in an unmarked grave?  And even if George had the old lady buried before anyone could do anything, why didn’t Ross immediately have her body dug up and buried properly . . . with a funeral service?  He was her great-nephew, for Pete’s sake!  He could afford to give Agatha a proper burial.  And he was back from France.  It made no damn sense that a period of time had passed between Agatha’s death and Ross contemplating a new headstone for her.  I don’t know whether to blame Winston Graham or Debbie Horsfield.

 

Quote

You know, count me as one who always thought Heida was the weak link in this show.  I always thought she stunk.  Not anymore.  Elizabeth & Heida are getting interesting.

 

I never thought that Heida Reed was the weak link in the show.  I just recently re-watched the first two shows of the series.  I didn't have a problem with her performances.  Are you sure that this isn't about being unsatisfied with Elizabeth being portrayed as a woman typical of her time, instead of an ideal 21st century woman in the late 18th century?  Or the fact that Ross had feelings for Elizabeth for so long?

Edited February 6, 2018 by LJones41