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S03.E04: Sweet Sixteen

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52 minutes ago, Impatient said:

Also, the Q in LGBTQIA+ used to mean queer (and still does)  but in the past queer was  pejorative and terribly hurtful. Presently,  queer means unsure or questioning (Really as Jazz is now) and is no longer hurtful.  So it can be very difficult to keep up unless you yourself are an active member of the community.  
 

I am going to take the discussion of the Q in LGBTQ . . .  to the questions thread.

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4 hours ago, Impatient said:

Is transgendered considered  pejorative Bellalisa?  I have never used the term, but might have without knowing it was an insult of some kind.  

The Transgender community is the most empfindlich community I have encountered I think.  Empfindlich is a German word that has no direct English translation but means, "Easily injured, susceptible to harm, fragile.  Easily infected.  Quick to take sick."  It means fragille in a more profound fundamental way.

Taking offense at the tense of a word seems  bit over the top.  but you know, I am not walking in those shoes, so what do I know?
 

I think it is considered a pejorative. I am a fan of RuPauls Drag race and drag queens are usually gay men and some of them actually do transition to becoming full women. It has happened at least 3 times on the show and Ru Paul totally supports this choice.  About a year ago the trans community had demanded that Ru Paul take the title of a segment on the show and change it because they were offended. It was a play on E-Mail called She Mail- because they are men dressing like women (drag queens).  They did give in and change it on the show. the trans community found it offensive toward them. I was offended because RuPaul is their biggest supporter and would never do anything to put them down. Then my cousin, who is male to female transgender, wrote this whole post about how horrible Ru Paul is and how he is a disgrace to the trans community for having the play on words on the show.. Meanwhile everything that Ru Paul has done in his career to help LGBTQ causes and bring this all to the forefront. I think it was an example of Empfindlich.

Edited by Bellalisa
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Empfindlich, I like that word!

What I forgot to say earlier was that it saddens me that Jazz seems to be going the way of Caitlin Jenner in that Jazz seems to be infatuated with having BIG BOOBS, and America's Top Vagina. She seems obsessed with the external trappings of womanhood, without understanding much at all about being a woman. She wants breasts and a vagina, but she doesn't even seem to know what they are for, let alone interested in them as anatomical, working parts if you will. Rather, she seems to just want lady parts as if they are accessories.

And the hormone suppressants she's been on seem to have thwarted her entire puberty, not just physically but mentally too, which is really sad because I suspect this is where the rift between her and her old friends started...she has zero interest in boys or girls sexually speaking, it's no wonder her friends from her old school aren't hanging out with her, they are experiencing puberty and hormone surges and Jazz has NO clue what that's about. She talks about transgender and transitioning, but there is a huge disconnect between gender dysphoria issues she has and her actual sexuality. 

It's also disturbing that her mother doesn't seem to acknowledge this at all, let alone the doctors shown on this show.

It's been enough, she needs to do this transition privately, this show isn't helping anyone other than the family's wallet.

Edited by gingerella
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On 7/12/2017 at 10:36 PM, pinkelephant3 said:

I said this in another post but meant to put it here...I get she's going through a lot...but man is jazz a whiney little bitch to everyone around her. Just because she's different doesn't give her the right to be mean to everyone around her. 

She is truly a bitch to everyone.  The world revolves around her.

Her eating was just gross.

She is so mean to her mom.

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Is there any research that shows that people who take hormone blockers as children fail to experience sexual desire in adolescence? I have not seen the data on this one way or the other, but anecdotally the other kids at the skating rink double date didn't seem to have the same dating phobia that Jazz does, and I'd hate to generalize from Jazz to everyone. There are also asexual people who are not trans, for instance. I don't know if Jazz is asexual or just has a lot of social anxiety or is just a late bloomer or what, but one kid who took blockers and is not dating at 16, I would say is not totally conclusive with regard to all kids who took blockers, or even Jazz herself for the rest of her life. It could also be that her dysphoria makes her anxious about sexuality, for instance. Or the cameras being around could be giving her a bad case of self-consciousness and making it hard for her to relax.

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16 hours ago, gingerella said:

It's been enough, she needs to do this transition privately, this show isn't helping anyone other than the family's wallet.

Actually, I'm okay with it being shown, and not just for any entertainment/trainwreck value. These reality shows do have a way of bringing out the truth without ever actually saying so - they just show what happens, even if things are getting worse instead of better. Anyone who watches *My Big Fat Fabulous Life,* some episodes of *My 600-lb Life,* and *Sister Wives* knows that these people aren't sugarcoated at all.

Like the people on those other shows - which do not show how fabulous it is to be morbidly obese or share your husband with other women, but quite the opposite - Jazz is showing us how complicated "transitioning" really is and that it's still an experimental treatment. I say let it continue to be on TV, if Jazz is going to do this anyway. It's a cautionary tale and really very informative and educational in its own way.

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54 minutes ago, okerry said:

Actually, I'm okay with it being shown, and not just for any entertainment/trainwreck value. These reality shows do have a way of bringing out the truth without ever actually saying so - they just show what happens, even if things are getting worse instead of better. Anyone who watches *My Big Fat Fabulous Life,* some episodes of *My 600-lb Life,* and *Sister Wives* knows that these people aren't sugarcoated at all.

Like the people on those other shows - which do not show how fabulous it is to be morbidly obese or share your husband with other women, but quite the opposite - Jazz is showing us how complicated "transitioning" really is and that it's still an experimental treatment. I say let it continue to be on TV, if Jazz is going to do this anyway. It's a cautionary tale and really very informative and educational in its own way.

Yes but the other reality shows you mention are about adults, not a child in a highly vulnerable time in her life. Big difference to me.

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I just want to add that I definitely know what it was like to be a late bloomer.  In a way I was Jazz!

I was 17 before I had my first period.  My parents were so worried they had taken me to an endocrinologist.  I had zero secondary sexual characteristics, looked 10.  I am not kidding  I recently found my high school scrap book and the picture on my senior year ID looks like I am, at most, 13 years old.

Just as the tests were being ordered my period started!  And then amazingly!  In my senior year of high school I grew 6 inches!  I gained 25 pounds and I went from being completely flat chested to having a DD bra.  The doctors said they have no idea how the timing of this all works,but that it IS hereditary.  My mother's puberty did not start till she was 16.  

It all happened so fast that I developed stretch marks on my breasts and hips.

I remember being 16 and looking like a little boy.  And going to high school parties and like Jazz, getting NO attention from boys, who were all interested in the girly girls  The sudden change I experienced my senior year in high school was thrilling and scary.  That pain, of being ignored, feels not just that no one is paying attention to you, but that you are  a total reject, unworthy of existence even.  It is the core message of every John Hughes movie.  

So I understand how hard this minefield is for Jazz to negotiate.  But she has so much positive reinforcement from the public at large that I would expect her to develop some sensitivity to the feelings of other people.  I ex[ect her to benefit from her positive exposure by developing some special strength.  Maybe that was wrong....  I am having so much trouble understanding how she can be so confident and secure speaking to crowds, riding on parade floats, etc., without having empathy for just the person she is talking to.  Just that one person.

What did it feel like to go home that night, after the skating rink, for Shane?  What did it feel like to be rejected by Jazz?

 

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@Impatient thank you for sharing your experience. Just as it was awkward for you to be a late bloomer, a lot of girls are treated differently because they are early bloomers (over sexualized, accused of being "fast" etc)- been a teen isn't easy. 

 

I think Jazz is like a lot of extroverted people (me included), public speaking in front of crowds about subjects we are passionate about etc is something we excel at and are very comfortable with, but speaking one on one in an intimate setting about our own "feelings" makes us want to run and hide. I HATE talking about my feelings yet I'm the worlds biggest chatter box (I am a Hetero sexual cis woman). Jazz absolutely was rude to Shane and should've apologized to him. Her whole "I hate myself" screamed of dramatics and attention seeking behavior- sweetie just acknowledge it wasn't your best moment and move on. But the squeakest wheel gets the oil, and I think I more than anything Jazz wants to be "normal" and will do whatever it takes to achieve that. To her "normal" means being heteronormative at 16 years old.

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1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

To her "normal" means being heteronormative at 16 years old.

Yes but more often than not, she is acting like a spoiled, coddled elementary school kid, not a 16 year old teenager, so she's not really even behaving like a normal 16 year old. She is incredibly socially immature for her age. I'm not talking about sex and sexuality, I'm talking about basic common social skills. She is rude most of the time lately, and nobody calls her on it, except perhaps her old friends, who, if I were to guess, were tired of every convo being all about Jazz's transgender issues. I remember Jazz really pressing those girls about some boy she claimed to like and who didn't seem to feel the same towards her, and asking them in a very accusatory way, "Is it because I'm transgender?!?" I also remember the faces of those girls, they seemed like they were thinking, "well yeah, duh!" but they were so afraid to hurt her feelings and they mealymouthed some answer or other. And I remember thinking to myself at that time, "what typical heterosexual teenage boy is going to want to 'date' Jazz when she has a penis and testicles?" I mean, it's not even like a tiny group of guys, it's like a group of no guys IMO. People have to remember what high school was/is like for kids. And the dynamics prevent exploration outside what is considered normal by any broad societal standards. So yeah, he was probably never going to be interested in Jazz romantically. And I cant hate on kids like that because imagine what it would be like for that boy to start 'dating' Jazz, and the whole world knows she has male genitals (and now, thanks to this season we all know the exact size and girth of said gentials). What teenage boy is going to put himself in that situation, nobody. Maaaybe somewhere there is a hetero teenage dude who'd be open/willing to take Jazz to a prom, but date? I just dont see that happening from what I remember of high school. Her Grandfather was right when he said what he did about that very issue. It's not being cruel or mean, it's being realistic. And that's where Jeanette exacerbates, IMO, this notion that Jazz should just 'get a boyfriend' and it'll be easy, and it'll be fine. It aint that easy, especially when you are sexually stunted from hormone therapies and dont even know what sexual urges are. Oy, who knew I had so much to say about this...Maybe I need to quit this show now!

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17 hours ago, gingerella said:

People have to remember what high school was/is like for kids. And the dynamics prevent exploration outside what is considered normal by any broad societal standards.  It aint that easy...

I enjoyed your entire post but this is what I've been thinking about lately. My 16 yr old son has a friend who is biologically female. Lately he (my son) has been referring to his friend by a male name. At first I wasn't sure he was talking about the same kid, because he (my son) kept switching pronouns when talking about them. I asked was his friend transgender and at first he said yes, so OK, I got that and started using male name and pronouns. The friend is in band with my son and they dress in formal wear for concerts so I asked was he (friend) going to get a tux for next year. He (my son) said no, because the friend answers to either name (female or male) and pronouns and said it's more a gender fluidity thing. So does that mean not identifying with either gender? Anyway, I said point blank to my son that I am not sure which name or pronoun to use bc sometimes when I see the kid, she looks very female and answers to her original name (that's why I just switched pronouns there), and other times, it's opposite. He said to be honest, he is kind of confused too and isn't sure from day to day. This is not someone he is dating, they are just friends, but I'm thinking about his reaction.  He doesn't care about the gender fluidity, they just like to hang out - and if he's confused in just a friend state, imagine what it's like to be the potential boyfriend of someone who is transgender or gender fluid....not the actual being the boyfriend, but wrapping your head around it all. So I can't really blame these boys for not being that into Jazz because at their age, they are all just starting this complicated dance called "relationships." And it's hard enough to navigate when it's straightforward!

Edited by Eureka
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Young people today are a lot more accepting of trans, gender fluid and nonbinary people, IMO. Let's not project our prejudices on them without reflection. 

I mean, i don't think it's fair to say there are literally zero high school boys (or girls for that matter) who would not want to date someone outside of the traditional gender categories. As someone else said up there, several of Jazz's trans friends seem to have found romantic relationships. 

This is also based on my observation of my daughter (who is now in her mid-20s) and her peer group. 

Edited by bref
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@bref I agree with you. That being said I think Jazz will find a lot of emotional support and acceptance among her LGBT friends (like Noelle and Maya)- not to say she cannot find friends/companions/dates outside of that circle but I'm glad she is hanging with other young people who understand. 

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On 7/16/2017 at 11:05 AM, Impatient said:

I don't know, @possibilities.  I think part of it represents resentment at some level of dishonesty.  I think most people get that transgender people feel their outer presentations to the world do not reflect their true selves and try to rectify that in as genuine a way as they can, but that solution in and of itself feels like a fraud is being perpetrated, feels that way to those who do NOT understand the feelings of frustration at being something other than one appears to be.  If this concept that one's flawlessly feminine (or masculine) appearance does not truly represent one's biological gender or one's reproductive ability in the most general terms, then what does that say about those of us who are biologically as we appear to be?  I think that the transgender community goes to such lengths to cultivate an outward appearance (that in their minds reflects their truths), that it smacks of desperation to the population they are copying, and in some cases, even satirizing (e.g., drag queens).  (And don't get me wrong, I think that satire is awesome!!!.  We don't see the opposite very often because men don't do so much fake stuff to fit a beauty standard).

It's the emphasis on appearance, i think, that so disturbs people.  Drag queens and Hollywood aside, most of the world lives with the body they were born with.  But if one appears to be "A" but is in some fundamental way (biologically, genetically, reproductively) "B", then the fear and self-critiquing that is inspired by the elite "A"s and "B"s becomes exagerated.  Tremendously.  Because now it's not just a matter of "hollywood can make pretty girls flawless in their beauty, so I have to be that beautiful too!".  

 

Worse, aside from the trans community at large, we have Jazz, affluent, privileged Jazz whose family can afford flawless creation of "B", and there is of course resentment.  On a class level (who among us could afford all of that), on a child protection level (how dare they decide this for a 3 year old?), on a financial level (we'll go see all the best doctors and damn the cost!) and in a weird way on a celebrity level (are we supposed to admire Jazz as a standard of feminine or even trans-feminine beauty?).  

 

So this:  "I think that there is a deeper social order taboo being broken here, and that the policing of other people's gender and the social constructs surrounding that, are pretty crazy, and totally unnecessary and quite ridiculous. There are so many more important things to worry about in how people behave or identify as individuals, and so many things more important to a functioning society, that the morbid, frantic, Big Deal concern generated by the general public about this particular detail of other people's bodies, personalities, and personal lives (including people one doesn't even know!) still strikes me as utterly bizarre, dysfunctional, and insane."

This kind of dismisses people who are putting effort into building genuine relationships and families and lives, and start that at puberty by trying to attract attention from potential partners.  Of COURSE Jazz wants those things too, but she enters into any such relationship with a full and complete understanding of the issues involved.  I think people are more than a little squeamish at the idea that they might be seduced into a relationship that they have no real understanding of and that could risk real emotional trauma.

 

Finally, there is something disingenuous about Jazz wanting a cis boyfriend.  As though she is saying, "i pass so perfectly, i demand the same in a partner."  Irregardless of what this says about her views of "A" or "B" in males, it is elitist.  It is dismissive and even cruel.  Shane's date with Jazz was painful to watch, and while she may only have been acting in an honest teen-aged way, it highlights the problems associated with something i can't help but think of as an experiment.   I understand your views @possibilities, but i understand the other side of the debate too.

I have so many responses to this post. Where do I begin? Firstly, I think if Jazz were to enter into a romantic and/or sexual relationship or a one night hookup without telling the person she's trans, that would be dishonest and a fraud. It would be wrong for the person she's engaging with and also dangerous for her, that's how trans people end up dead. Except that's not how Jazz operates, she's open about being trans and tells people she is before she leads them on. So what's the problem then? If the thought of engaging in sexual relations with a transperson makes someone upset on a basic primal level, then don't have sexual relations with a transperson. It's that simple. Everyone has free choice to live how they want to... right? So then what's the problem? How is Jazz being dishonest in everyday, nonsexual interactions? Why are people offended by her merely existing, how is it affecting them? It's not. 


Secondly, it seems to me that you are confusing transpeople and drag queens. They aren't the same thing. For a transperson it isn't about trying to copy the opposite gender, it's about actually feeling like the opposite gender in a deep emotional way, and it's about feeling that their actual anatomy, penis, vagina, whatever it is, isn't them, is wrong. For drag queens on the other  hand it IS about copying the outward appearance of the opposite gender, it is all on a superficial level because drag queen aren't women, they're men. You don't see Jazz or Noelle being outrageous stereotypes of women, because they aren't trying to copy women, they are just being themselves. 

 

Personally, I'm not trans, I'm a ciswoman, but I don't find it difficult to imagine what it's like to be a transwoman, because I just imagine what my life would be like if I were born male. I feel like a female, like a woman. If I were born as myself, but in a male body, I'm pretty sure I'd have gender dyphoria and be trans just like Jazz is. I'm just lucky I was born as the gender that I feel inside. She is less lucky. 

 

Lastly, I don't see what is disingenuous about Jazz wanting to have a cis boyfriend. A person has no control over who they are attracted to. If Jazz is attracted to cismen, if that's what's in her heart, there's nothing wrong with her pursing that desire. It's going to be harder for her. Much much harder. But it's not impossible, it's a big world out there, with lots of people, she can probably find a special cis guy who is attracted to her. 

Edited by mangosplums
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On 7/19/2017 at 1:21 AM, gingerella said:

And the hormone suppressants she's been on seem to have thwarted her entire puberty, not just physically but mentally too, which is really sad because I suspect this is where the rift between her and her old friends started...she has zero interest in boys or girls sexually speaking, it's no wonder her friends from her old school aren't hanging out with her, they are experiencing puberty and hormone surges and Jazz has NO clue what that's about. She talks about transgender and transitioning, but there is a huge disconnect between gender dysphoria issues she has and her actual sexuality. 

It's also disturbing that her mother doesn't seem to acknowledge this at all, let alone the doctors shown on this show.

It's been enough, she needs to do this transition privately, this show isn't helping anyone other than the family's wallet.

 

On 7/19/2017 at 3:53 PM, possibilities said:

Is there any research that shows that people who take hormone blockers as children fail to experience sexual desire in adolescence? I have not seen the data on this one way or the other, but anecdotally the other kids at the skating rink double date didn't seem to have the same dating phobia that Jazz does, and I'd hate to generalize from Jazz to everyone. There are also asexual people who are not trans, for instance. I don't know if Jazz is asexual or just has a lot of social anxiety or is just a late bloomer or what, but one kid who took blockers and is not dating at 16, I would say is not totally conclusive with regard to all kids who took blockers, or even Jazz herself for the rest of her life. It could also be that her dysphoria makes her anxious about sexuality, for instance. Or the cameras being around could be giving her a bad case of self-consciousness and making it hard for her to relax.

I honestly think that Jazz's lack of sexual attraction and desire has more to do with her body dysphoria than anything. She shows quite a bit of attraction to boys, but I'm sure she doesn't feel comfortable starting to explore it yet because of what's between her legs. In terms of developing actual libido.... that I can't say. 

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On 7/15/2017 at 0:03 AM, KBrownie said:

And this stuff obviously matters plenty to Jazz, otherwise she wouldn't spend so much time on it.  She really needs to wait a few years and then go through this process of considering surgery again.  She doesn't know what she wants and doesn't really understand the options as it pertains to intercourse and the potential irreversible surgery could end up not being what she truly wants once she matures and knows a bit more about the world than the bubble she lives in.

Jazz wants what she thinks all women want or behave.  Which to her is long hair, boobs, and a "pretty vagina," but most women know and understand that there is much more to being a woman than that.  She needs to discover what being a woman means to her because it's not the same formula for every woman like she seems to think it is.  She also needs a lot of therapy because she can't spend the rest of her life blaming her mother for why she feels so unhappy.  She has them pretty snowed I think.  She knows just the language to use to get them to back off when she acts out and it comes off as manipulative. She knows how to use her parents' legitimate concern for her well-being as a way to excuse her objectionable behavior. Getting bottom surgery is not going to magically fix all her problems like she seems to think.  She acts as if poof! she gets the surgery and she'll have lots of friends and lots of dates and she'll magically be strong woman who loves herself.  She can get the surgery, but all that other stuff will still be there, which is why the therapy is important, but no on one can tell her anything.  Her parents (and therapists) have the power to hold off for a couple of years at least, and they need to hold fast.  It becomes clearer and clearer each week, despite it being reality TV (you can't fake her attitude. She isn't an actress), she isn't mature enough for  the surgery.

 

 

 

On 7/14/2017 at 1:01 PM, Madding crowd said:

Jazz should not be getting therapy from a family member. No reputable therapist would treat a relative, it is not possible to be entirely objective when you know everyone in the family. Plus I have no doubt Jeanette would be grilling 'cousin Debbie' about every word Jazz says. Jazz does need therapy, but not with a family member. Her family brunch scene was bizarre to me; her grandparents bring over tons of food and then the whole family stares at Jazz while she eats? Why would that be a treat for her? I also agree the drag show was not appropriate for her age. Drag shows are great fun but not for teenagers who get embarrassed easily. It is more of Jeanette trying to push Jazz into a role she is not ready for. 

i don't think there is a problem with her weight, or the way she sits; not everyone is tiny and dainty. She does have a spoiled attitude, but part of that comes from living in a fishbowl. If Jeanette would give her a little room to just breathe, her issues might not be so severe. As far as the endless surgery discussions in that family, I think she should wait until she is eighteen. Surgeries come with a lot of complication possibilities and I don't think she is mature enough to make that decision now.

 

 

Watching the whole therapy thing with Jazz gave me flashbacks to when I was teen. My mom also forced me into therapy. I did it because I was forced, but it didn't help me. For it to have benefit the person needs to be choosing to go there themselves. 

I understand that Jeanette feels overwhelmed and worried, but I'm not sure what exactly she thinks therapy is going to do for Jazz.

I see a huge issues in their family with helicopter parenting that is getting in the way of Jazz maturing emotionally and gaining independence as person.  Jeanette is doing more harm than good with her over-monitering of Jazz's social, emotional and love life.  When Jazz said she wasn't feeling depressed and that she could handle her emotions herself, Jeanette responded that Jazz couldn't. IMO that is the opposite of what Jazz needs to hear.  As a parent Jeanette should be trying to encourage Jazz to feel competent, and by telling Jazz that she is incapable of handling her emotions, she is telling Jazz that she is incompetent, and inadvertently stifling her burgeoning sense of self-reliance and development.  They also should not be forcing Jazz to talk to them before and after every single social interaction Jazz has. They need to back off a bit. Not letting Jazz handle anything on her own will end up causing the very thing they are trying to prevent.  I know Jeanette means well, but type of helicopter parenting is damaging to a person's development, I speak from experience. 

 

 

 

On 7/19/2017 at 7:42 PM, Impatient said:


So I understand how hard this minefield is for Jazz to negotiate.  But she has so much positive reinforcement from the public at large that I would expect her to develop some sensitivity to the feelings of other people.  I ex[ect her to benefit from her positive exposure by developing some special strength.  Maybe that was wrong....  I am having so much trouble understanding how she can be so confident and secure speaking to crowds, riding on parade floats, etc., without having empathy for just the person she is talking to.  Just that one person.

What did it feel like to go home that night, after the skating rink, for Shane?  What did it feel like to be rejected by Jazz?

 

I do think Jazz acted rudely in that situation with Shane, but she is 16... most teenagers tend to be immature and messy in dating and social situations, but most teens are lucky they don't have cameras on them for their very vulnerable and sensitive first dates. You really can't expect Jazz to act perfect. Rejection and messy situations like that are part of growing up, for both Jazz and Shane. 

Edited by mangosplums

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Dear Mangosplums

 

I can understand why you took offense at my post, and I certainly did not mean many of the things I said in the way that you took them.  I agree that as long as Jazz tells a person she is trans before they have sex that meets her ethical responsibility.  But I believe she should tell a person she is trans as soon as possible after meeting them. And in the same  way you can imagine what it would be like to be a male that gives you some insight into what it feels like to be trans (i too am a cis woman), I can't help but remember what it felt like to be 16, 17, 18,......  and to get involved with someone, and be in just a kissing situation (which for me is SUCH an intimate act, kissing ----almost more than intercourse) and to have that person then say "I have to tell you, I am trans.  I felt you should know that."  At that point I would be mortified I think.  I would feel humiliated and put in a position that was purposefully manipulative, and somehow mean-spirited.  No matter how kind and sweet the woman was (I am thinking of Noelle) I would feel confused and scared somehow and badly used, put in an awkward position.  If we are going to hold to the fine points of the ethics of the situation,  in saying "How you look shouldn't matter, it is what is on the inside that matters", then why go through the outward changes at all?  I think it is because those secondary sexual characteristics signal something in our brains, something that is opposite to what you yourself are.  Women are most often attracted to masculine, men are most often attracted to feminine.  If your brain is telling you that you ARE that opposite state, then I just believe there has to be a way to communicate that before intimacy starts happening.  

Now you are being very anxious to take offense, Mangosplums.  And that makes me feel bad, to have gotten your dander up.  It was unintentional and I am sorry.  Didn't mean for what I said to be provoking.  I honestly meant drag queen as an extreme example of outward feminine characteristics.  I am not suggesting that transgender people are drag queens.  Far from it.  I use that example to illustrate the position that much of a woman's outward appearance is highlighted and refined and put on to meet an ideal, and that drag queens actually satirize that.  And it came up only because the topic of that episode was Jazz's party at a Drag Queen's show.  I personally think of Drag Shows as being on the same spectrum as burlesque shows, which I think of as high art (though you have to like campiness to agree).

If Jazz wants to date cis men, you are right, it is going to be very difficult for her.  My point was that there has to be some consistency in these positions to be able to learn anything.  If everybody ought to be able to date whomever they please and who you are biologically or genetically should not matter, then we have to ask why is it ok for that to matter to Jazz but not to others?  Why is it ok for her to rule out dating transmen, but not ok for cis women to rule out dating trans men?  And vice versa?  Are we saying it IS totally fine to define those boundaries?  It's fine for the sororities at U of FL in Gainesville to exclude Noelle from a sorority because her presence, her membership, her sisterhood would make some members uncomfortable?  It's to be expected that Noelle (and Jazz) are going to be ignored at frat parties because they will be known as the trans girls?  And I really do have to wonder what were Jeanette and Greg were envisioning as an ideal outcome for Jazz's transition?  And really,  if all of these postulates are true (what's inside is what matters, you should be free to date and/or exclude whomever you please, honesty is important to preserve safety but perhaps not dignity........) then what is the point of going through all of this stuff Jazz has been going through in the first place?  

Isn't this a story about what makes us human?  It seems like this show wouldn't exist except that Jazz's family is well to do.  If they were living in a trailer park, would these issues be taken seriously?  Isn't this ultimately about making a good match, about Jazz creating a respectable family, with children and success and continues streams of money?  Isn't that what Jeanette is ENTIRELY about?

It puts the idea of what is it to be human in to a totally different light.  Just my thoughts......  for what they're worth.

P.S.  On the topic of therapy.  Jazz has to go to be considered for the surgery.  That is true for everyone considering this surgery.  Two psychiatrists have to sign off that this surgery is appropriate.  I have been wondering why no one has been addressing the very high percentage of people who do transition and still commit suicide.  Jeanette mentions it all the time as a risk for transgender youth, but never mentons it as failed therapy for extremely depressed body dysmorphic people.   It is an important issue.

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after Jazz tell Shane she is transgender, there was a loooong pause and I did feel his sense of shock.  Jazz is so pretty it is easy to think, "Come on.  She has to be exaggerating this.  Maybe she is intersex."  I wonder how much these young guys can really understand what this is all about.

In regards to people commenting on Jazz's walk, table manners, weight....  I don't notice Jazz walking like a man.  The whole family (except for Greg) has ATROCIOUS table manners.  Jeanette alsso eats with her mouth open.  The boys were downright disgusting to watch.  Jazz should be paying attention to her weight, only because developing healthy habits now will give her a happier life.  

One of Jazz's brothers immediately tuned out of the surgery conversation and started texting on his phone.  I do NOT think the sibs are genuinely fully supportive of off of the steps involved in transition.  

At the Pride festival I got  strong sense of public Jazz vs private Jazz.  Public Jazz is gracious and friendly and professional.  Private Jazz is entitled and rude.  This will lead to trouble.....
 

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1 hour ago, Impatient said:

I can't help but remember what it felt like to be 16, 17, 18,......  and to get involved with someone, and be in just a kissing situation (which for me is SUCH an intimate act, kissing ----almost more than intercourse) and to have that person then say "I have to tell you, I am trans.  I felt you should know that."

How is that relevant when Jazz and her parents have always said the rule is anyone who takes Jazz on a date must know (for her safety) she's transgender in advance?  She's never made out with someone and then sprung the news on them.  (They've long used the same standard with sleepovers with friends and such, as well.)  The "when should you disclose?" line isn't a bright one, of course, but wherever most people draw it, I think Jazz's interactions have come down on the right side.

 

1 hour ago, Impatient said:

Why is it ok for her to rule out dating transmen,

She hasn't.  Jazz has said she's not clear on what groups of people she is and isn't attracted to; at this point, she's more pansexual than any other orientation.

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The hypothetical i was proposing didn't relate śpecifically to what Jazz is doing.  It was in the context of the bigger dating issue.  But you're right and her parents are too, in having Jazz adhere to the totally open honesty approach ---- for her own safety.

 

as to dating trans vs cis guys and pansexuality, that's mixing two different things.  Jazz has said she is pansexual:  doesn't know yet if she prefers boys or girls and may not have a preference at all.  That is a separate issue from dating cis vs trans men.  And that I addressed in the conversation with Mangoplums as a hypothetical:  if Jazz wants to date cis men.  

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Her being a teenage brat is the most normal thing I have seen her do. She's extremely grown up when she has to talk about transgender issues etc. I have a bratty 17 year old girl and she has her good and bad moments just like me. But Jazz has had to be on guard with her behavior for every second since they started filming which is exhausting. Can you imagine being filmed all the time? It's tiresome being nice. 

Her not wanting to drive is strange, most teenagers can't wait to get out alone in a car.

but what bugs the most I guess about Jeanette is the forced dating. Let's be honest, dating as a teenage is difficult for most teens. If you are a really outgoing, attractive girl you will attract all kinds of boys. 

jeannette face facts, Jazz still has a penis, that is a fact. Jazz is on TV and is well known to be transgender with Hormone created breasts and still a penis and testicular. In all honesty, how many teenage boys are going to want to go out with a girl with a penis? I'm not being mean it's just the way it is. Aren't most teenage boys fumbling around with trying to feel up a girl? If a boy knows what is there he's not going to pursue. She needs to be realistic and let the right person come into Jazzs life at the right time and it's probably not going to be in high school. She wants her to be "average" and date etc but Jazz isn't the average teenage girl. 

I wonder if Jeanette pressured and pulled her first daughter to date a bunch of boys?

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13 hours ago, Impatient said:

If we are going to hold to the fine points of the ethics of the situation,  in saying "How you look shouldn't matter, it is what is on the inside that matters", then why go through the outward changes at all?  

THANK YOU

Of course it's more than what's on the inside. 

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On 7/19/2017 at 1:21 AM, gingerella said:

She seems obsessed with the external trappings of womanhood, without understanding much at all about being a woman

in all honesty, how could she?

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Impatient, I totally got what you were inferring in your post...we're talking hypotheticals because this is such a complex situation we're watching play out on TV, and a young person's struggles with gender reassignment are put out for the world as a form of entertainment. It just seems wrong. This show began more as a learning show, but it's morphed into something else now, at least that's how I see it.

As for the rules of engagement that we've heard so much about in Jazz's family - you always disclose ASAP to help protect you from getting into a bad situation - I think the way Noelle disclosed as soon as the Dining in the Dark date sat down was the more honest way to go about it, IMO, YMMV. She wanted absolute transparency from the get go, and I respect her for it. I could tell how nervous she was to do that, but she did it anyway. The way Jazz did it felt like a form of 'gotcha!' She wants people to get to know her as a human being, without all the transgender assumptions - and I totally get that, I really do! But...it also felt very uncool to let that guy think he's going to connect with her on one level, then in the light of day say, "oh by the way, I'm a transgender girl" and then stare at him with this look of "do you have a problem with that?!" I mean, what's that kid supposed to do? Would his reaction be different if he wasn't on a TV show being filmed? The whole thing feels so forced and fake right now. I'm not sure why I still watch this show to be honest...

@Granny58, she might have a more balanced understanding about being a woman if she got the counseling she seems to need to badly. We dont really ever see her discussing anything of substance lately, it's all about BIG BOOBS or AMERICAN TOP VAGINA, and it's rarely about what she thinks being a woman is, what she wants from life...She's mentioned she doesn't know what her gender preferences are in a mate yet, fair enough since she has zero romantic/sexual experiences yet. But if she got the therapy she seems to so desperately need, I would think these sort of topics would be discussed in an ongoing basis.

And speaking of therapy, that Cousin Therapist scene was amazing in how unethical it was. You dont treat family, period, end of story. I wonder if there was fallout for the Cousin after being on TV counseling her family member? And how weird/coincidental is it that Jeanette has a cousin who specializes in treating teens of the LGBTQ community? I found that very 'coinky dinky'...I'm sure Cousin can refer Jazz to a stranger for appropriate treatment. And did Jazz hear nothing about the mandatory references of 2 therapists to sign off before she has the surgery? I cant imagine any therapist watching this show, and then thinking she is ready for such a life altering surgery right now.

Edited by gingerella
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Folks,

A reminder, this forum is about the I Am Jazz TV show.  Feel free to discuss things as they relate to Jazz and other persons who appear on the show.  Please do not speculate as to how all other transgender persons behave or open up hypothetical situations that do not relate to Jazz, her family or her friends.  We are not here to debate transgenderism.  We are here to snark on a TV show.  So let's stick to talking about Jazz, her Jazzisms and her general Jazziness.

Thanks, and happy posting!

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8 hours ago, Impatient said:

as to dating trans vs cis guys and pansexuality, that's mixing two different things.  Jazz has said she is pansexual:  doesn't know yet if she prefers boys or girls and may not have a preference at all.  That is a separate issue from dating cis vs trans men.

What you're describing is bisexuality, not pansexuality.  Because Jazz has said she's open to the possibility of dating not just cisgender boys or girls, but also transgender people - meaning she's open not just based on gender, but also gender identity, biological sex, etc. - she has tentatively identified as pansexual, not bisexual.

3 hours ago, Stephanie1216 said:

I wonder if Jeanette pressured and pulled her first daughter to date a bunch of boys?

If Ari wasn't naturally inclined to date, she probably did - it seems like Jeanette was happy dating at that age, and thus erroneously assumes every girl that age wants to date and will enjoy doing so - but Ari may have been interested on her own (and/or succumbed to societal pressure to date) and thus Jeanette never "had to" push the issue.  I can't recall if Ari, when she was at home and thus on the show more, ever talked - to Jazz on camera, or in her talking head interviews - about her dating experience at Jazz's age.

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18 hours ago, gingerella said:

@Granny58, she might have a more balanced understanding about being a woman if she got the counseling she seems to need to badly. We dont really ever see her discussing anything of substance lately, it's all about BIG BOOBS or AMERICAN TOP VAGINA, and it's rarely about what she thinks being a woman is, what she wants from life...

Speaking as a woman, I am not even sure what it means.  Both genders have jobs, bills, hopes and dreams, joys and sorrows, fears and strengths.  However, aside from hormonal effects and biological processes (menstruation, child birth, menopause,) I don't know what understanding what being like a woman means.   And a person who transitions won't experience those.    In complete disclosure I am a conservative woman.  However, my uber-liberal cousin and I discuss this topic on occasion and even he doesn't understand what it means to believe you are the other gender.  We only just understand how it feels to be ourselves.  I don't "feel" like a woman (that I'm aware of), I only feel like me.   As far as I can grasp the idea (and I'm trying), a person can live AS another gender, but can't actually be that.  

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When I discuss issues of gender and sexuality with young people, I always go back to the idea that I cannot know exactly how someone feels; I can only know how they tell me they feel.  Jazz tells me she is female even though her body appeared male.  I accept that.  Just as I accept when someone tells me they are sad.  Or someone says that they are unhappy with a particular part of their body.  When someone tells me what their sexual orientation is, I accept that also. 

She is at a really awkward age to be on a TV show.  Her mother is pushing her to date.  It does seem like her mother wants what she views as a "normal" adolescence for Jazz.  The problem is there is no 100% normal.  We've all had different experiences and Jazz is very different from Jeanette.  (Two  Jeanettes in a house would be more than any sane person could handle).  Jazz does seem very young in some ways.  It's not that unusual for a 16 year old to not be dating all the time.  Being transgender and being on TV only make this more likely.  I wouldn't have wanted my 16 year old self filmed, especially while dating.    Are there people who would be interested in dating Jazz?  Sure.  Are they in her town, do they have an opportunity to get to know her that wouldn't be creepy stalking, ad would she also be interested in them?  The group slims greatly.  Her exposure is both good and bad - good in that it helps open the conversation about transgender youth, bad in that all of her teenage angst, crankiness, general shittiness toward others is exposed to the world.  As always, I think a annua catch up special would be better than this show.  

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4 hours ago, Muffyn said:

She is at a really awkward age to be on a TV show.  Her mother is pushing her to date.  It does seem like her mother wants what she views as a "normal" adolescence for Jazz.  The problem is there is no 100% normal. 

Jeanette is how old?  50?  ish.  She is a bit younger than me, so I expect her high school years were similar to mine, and we dated ALL THE TIME.  It was very very common for people to date.  I know a fair amount of people didn't, but it was a dating culture.  The "vibe" I'm noticing in 2017 is that dating is not as important and people do things as a group more.  So maybe Jeanette is remembering her way, figuring that's the ordinary way, and hasn't noticed a different atmosphere.  

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4 hours ago, Muffyn said:

w someone feels; I can only know how they tell me they feel.  Jazz tells me she is female even though her body appeared male. 

I think that it what I'm trying to put together in my head.  I could sit here dressed as a man and I would only feel like me.  It wouldn't make any difference because (as far as I and my cousin can discern), that's the only way you can feel.  So to feel like the other gender, I wonder if that already (sorry this is indelicate, not meant to offend, I just can't find the right words) is off track and it isn't so much as feeling like a particular gender as much as something else about it strikes a chord.  I was fast as a kid, strong as an adult (really strong, wierdly strong) but didn't feel like a male....or female....just me.   So to "feel" like a particular gender, I don't get that.  Please, others chime in.  Do you feel like your gender or just yourself?  

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1 hour ago, Granny58 said:

I think that it what I'm trying to put together in my head.  I could sit here dressed as a man and I would only feel like me.  It wouldn't make any difference because (as far as I and my cousin can discern), that's the only way you can feel.  So to feel like the other gender, I wonder if that already (sorry this is indelicate, not meant to offend, I just can't find the right words) is off track and it isn't so much as feeling like a particular gender as much as something else about it strikes a chord.  I was fast as a kid, strong as an adult (really strong, wierdly strong) but didn't feel like a male....or female....just me.   So to "feel" like a particular gender, I don't get that.  Please, others chime in.  Do you feel like your gender or just yourself?  

That's because you're a cis-gender person. You don't have to think about it the way that a trans person does because your gender identity has been affirmed by society at birth, and throughout your entire life.

This isn't an exact analogy but it's kind of how straight people never have to explain "I knew I was straight when x happened" or "I told my parents I was straight". Or how people who see in color are never asked by color blind people "well what's it like to see colors, explain to me how you know you see in color". 

Jazz is incredibly eloquent regarding being a young trans-person, and as she's gotten older her language expression is more sophisticated when you think of little Jazz saying "I have a girl brain and boy body." Which is pretty straightforward language for her peers to grasp. Kind of like when I was 5-6 and asked my Mom what "gay" meant, she told me that it was when 2 men or 2 women love each other the way a husband/wife or boyfriend/girlfriend love each other-very simple and age appropriate and truthful. The internal things are hard to explain because you've only lived life as yourself. Especially since Jazz was able to transition so young, she cannot comment on what it felt like to live as perceived man the way an older transperson (who transitioned in mid adulthood) would. 

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In Jennifer Finney Boylan's book "She's Not There," she talks about what being female means to her, and it makes a lot of sense. I have learned more about how to articulate "feeling female" from transgender women. In addition, I see femininity as the struggle to find strength in our inherent vulnerability, and masculinity as the struggle to find vulnerability in their inherent strength.

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@Scarlett45, I appreciate your response, and I know it IS hard to explain such a concept.  Explaining color to the color blind would be similar.  I shall have to think about it further, what it means to have a girl brain, but I don't understand what that means.  I only have my brain.  In some ways I'm very much like my dad, in other ways like my mom.  It's very confusing.  

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38 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Especially since Jazz was able to transition so young, she cannot comment on what it felt like to live as perceived man the way an older transperson (who transitioned in mid adulthood) would. 

I think this is part of what bothers me with Jazz's approach to the world. She seems to be quick to comment on life as a transperson who transitioned later. This season, we've seen her comment on the hardships of how transgender individuals. She went after Mai's brother not understanding that he may have not been raised to accept Mai as his sister. It is clear that once Jazz was allowed to transition (as a very little girl), her siblings had to accept that she was their sister and not their brother. (We don't know anything about the family dynamic at that point so I'm not going to comment on how that acceptance was reached.) Mai, on the other hand, had only recently begun to live as a female. When Jazz was involving herself in that conversation, she frequently said "we" when she was referring to life as a transperson and struggles that by and large she has not had to face. When she became indignant over the technician's incorrect pronoun usage, Noelle reminded her that she didn't have many of the struggles other transpeople have had because she can "pass" so much easier than someone like Noelle who went through puberty first. Even then, Jazz didn't seem to get that perhaps she shouldn't be raising indignation over something that Noelle brushed off because it wasn't as big of a deal as Jazz wanted to make it.

I think some of my issue with her is that she (and her mother) seem to want to be authorities on all things transgender. She is an excellent role model for young transgender individuals who have been allowed to transition prior to puberty and who have access to hormone blockers. However, at this moment, she's the exception and not the rule for transgender individuals, especially with other individuals who did not have the hormone blockers on the market or within their financial means. Inserting herself into those discussions, when they are not something she has experienced or had to face, just makes her seem like an obnoxious know it all. However, beginning with the Millennials, we are seeing more kids with the same mentality. They have always been told they are right, perfect, and special. Their parents are hyper-invested in their lives. They are allowed to do and say what they want without worrying about many consequences for such actions. The real world is a harsh, cruel place and Jeanette's refusal to rein Jazz in when she goes too far (with her grandfather, her manners, turning a "how's school going" question into a "let me tell you all about my vagina at the dinner table" moment which made her siblings visibly uncomfortable, etc.) is going to lead to some really rough moments when she has to step outside her bubble. I think in contrast Noelle has a much better grip on the real world and I hope that she gets to come into her own when she spreads her wings.

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@MegD I agree with what you're saying. I don't ever think Jazz should feel guilty regarding the family support she has, or the fact that she comes from a family of that has the financial means to help her transition but she should be aware of the experiences of other trans-people. 

It's like saying a straight male person of color who grows up with financial affluence and access to resources many people of color don't have doesn't mean they never experience racism- but they can acknowledge their privilege in other ways (class privledge, straight privledge etc), acknowledging intersectionality doesn't lessen their experiences. 

But in a way it's kind of refreshing that Jazz expects nothing but acceptance. So often minority groups have had to cower and hide and "stay in our place" to not make waves or "get ourselves killed", it's comforting to see her be so who she is.....I think as she matures she will find a good balance. 

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4 hours ago, Granny58 said:

Jeanette is how old?  50?  ish.  She is a bit younger than me, so I expect her high school years were similar to mine, and we dated ALL THE TIME.  It was very very common for people to date.  I know a fair amount of people didn't, but it was a dating culture.  The "vibe" I'm noticing in 2017 is that dating is not as important and people do things as a group more.  So maybe Jeanette is remembering her way, figuring that's the ordinary way, and hasn't noticed a different atmosphere.  

Can you expand on this a little bit more?

Im 31 and some of peers complain they don't date, or that people don't date any more. My personal experience isn't like that (men do ask me out on dates). I know my experiences are far different than that of a teenager but social attitudes do change regarding dating and things. I joke that my Mom says "so so and I went together" which meant they were boyfriend/girlfriend and it's such a dated phrase it makes me giggle. I had to tell her "hook up" meant "engage in sexual activity" not "go out on a date". 

I do think Jeanette is projecting on Jazz a bit, which as her baby child as well as a child that Jeanette sees as needing additional supports that it's suprising. 

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8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Can you expand on this a little bit more?

Im 31 and some of peers complain they don't date, or that people don't date any more. My personal experience isn't like that (men do ask me out on dates). I know my experiences are far different than that of a teenager but social attitudes do change regarding dating and things. I joke that my Mom says "so so and I went together" which meant they were boyfriend/girlfriend and it's such a dated phrase it makes me giggle. I had to tell her "hook up" meant "engage in sexual activity" not "go out on a date". 

I do think Jeanette is projecting on Jazz a bit, which as her baby child as well as a child that Jeanette sees as needing additional supports that it's suprising. 

Sure.  I would be like your mom.  When I was in high school, that was the thing too, "to go together."  You didn't date mutliple people....you dated a person and that was your boyfriend until he wasn't anymore and then somebody else was...and usually that did not involve sex.    There were periods in between, of course, when you were unattached but the social construct was dating.  Even in the group activities, there was typically pairing up within that group.  Yet, in my son's age group (younger than you, I was late to the game) there seems to be MUCH less emphasis on having a girlfriend.  I don't have a daughter and the ONLY girl in my friends' children dated her one boyfriend for 15 years and just married him so I only have the male side to go by now.

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18 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Sure.  I would be like your mom.  When I was in high school, that was the thing too, "to go together."  You didn't date mutliple people....you dated a person and that was your boyfriend until he wasn't anymore and then somebody else was...and usually that did not involve sex.    There were periods in between, of course, when you were unattached but the social construct was dating.  Even in the group activities, there was typically pairing up within that group.  Yet, in my son's age group (younger than you, I was late to the game) there seems to be MUCH less emphasis on having a girlfriend.  I don't have a daughter and the ONLY girl in my friends' children dated her one boyfriend for 15 years and just married him so I only have the male side to go by now.

Ah thank you for your insight. My Mom is far older than you (69- she was late to the game too) but I was wondering. Again I'm not a teen by a long shot, but I do think teens are into dating, it's just structured differently these days with cell phones and social media. Also their social circles are bigger than perhaps they would've been in the past. When I was in HS a gazillion years ago a few people were paired up but most people were not- that doesn't mean people didn't "hook up" but they were less likely to attach a title to it. 

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17 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Ah thank you for your insight. My Mom is far older than you (69- she was late to the game too) but I was wondering. Again I'm not a teen by a long shot, but I do think teens are into dating, it's just structured differently these days with cell phones and social media. Also their social circles are bigger than perhaps they would've been in the past. When I was in HS a gazillion years ago a few people were paired up but most people were not- that doesn't mean people didn't "hook up" but they were less likely to attach a title to it. 

Oh, that's an interesting element I hadn't thought about....electronic connections.  Perhaps they are more connected than I realized (which is a relief frankly!)   Definitely differences in the hook up culture though.  Certainly, there would have been 1 girl (the max 2) who would have hooked up in my day and she would have been called a slut.   I've mentioned to my son that dating doesn't have to mean sex, it can mean bowling.  

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20 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

Oh, that's an interesting element I hadn't thought about....electronic connections.  Perhaps they are more connected than I realized (which is a relief frankly!)   Definitely differences in the hook up culture though.  Certainly, there would have been 1 girl (the max 2) who would have hooked up in my day and she would have been called a slut.   I've mentioned to my son that dating doesn't have to mean sex, it can mean bowling.  

I don't think the average teen thinks dating means sex, even an early 30s professional doesn't think that, but if you aren't comfortable with partnered sexual activity at all, I see why someone would hold off on dating. 

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8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don't think the average teen thinks dating means sex, even an early 30s professional doesn't think tha

I hope you're right.  

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18 minutes ago, Granny58 said:

I hope you're right.  

Awww. I mean I date because it's a socially acceptable way to meet my need for partnered sex and men will pay (gotta love heteronormativity there!!) But I think for a lot of my generation and younger if you're not interested in partnered sex at all we would much prefer to hang out with our platonic friends. Outside of very conservative social circles dating means partnered sex will be on the table eventually. 

 

So if a teen says they aren't into dating right now (for whatever reason) I don't see that as hindering their ability to socialize or have peer relationships. Now that I've spoken to you I think I understand Jeanette more, to her Jazz not dating means she doesn't get to socialize with peers. That's not true! That's not even true for me at 31. 

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11 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

But in a way it's kind of refreshing that Jazz expects nothing but acceptance. So often minority groups have had to cower and hide and "stay in our place" to not make waves or "get ourselves killed", it's comforting to see her be so who she is.....I think as she matures she will find a good balance. 

I agree. I just think that she needs to learn to pick her battles, which will come with age. Getting worked up over a mispronoun that was immediately corrected and didn't seem to offend Noelle, who was the subject of the moment, isn't worth it. Speaking over her grandfather when he was explaining how he learned to accept her in light of how he was raised and saying he was wrong is rude and offensive. She shouldn't be afraid to make waves or hide herself and who she is, but at the same time, not every moment or slight is a teachable moment.

Using myself as an example of picking one's battles, I'm an attorney. Setting aside all other factors, it is difficult to be a woman in a male dominated field. I've been talked down to, treated like a secretary, and flat out ignored because of my gender. It doesn't matter that I'm more qualified or smarter than some of my cohorts, they get deferred to purely because they are male. So I've had to learn to pick when to speak up. Occasionally, it's okay to be underestimated or quiet when someone tries to sideline me. I know that it's just going to be an exercise in frustration to get mad that one particular judge hates women who wear pants. So I show up in a skirt, know my shit, and outmaneuver the men to prove to the judge I'm not just a pretty face. Had I focused on the pant issue, I would have spent more time on an external appearances instead of focusing on my abilities. It's not quite the same as Jazz's issues, I know, but sometimes you just have to know when to speak up and when to let something slide. I think she'll end up more respected if she lets the small stuff go and focuses on the bigger issues.

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21 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Awww. I mean I date because it's a socially acceptable way to meet my need for partnered sex and men will pay (gotta love heteronormativity there!!) But I think for a lot of my generation and younger if you're not interested in partnered sex at all we would much prefer to hang out with our platonic friends. Outside of very conservative social circles dating means partnered sex will be on the table eventually. 

 

So if a teen says they aren't into dating right now (for whatever reason) I don't see that as hindering their ability to socialize or have peer relationships. Now that I've spoken to you I think I understand Jeanette more, to her Jazz not dating means she doesn't get to socialize with peers. That's not true! That's not even true for me at 31. 

And "eventually" is one thing and was common when I was a young adult (still, not high school).   So my impressions are correct then?  That sex can be an expected "activity" of a date (not a requirement, just not a big deal)  just like movies and dinner (or bowling?).  So yes, if that's the case, then I can understand holding off.   

 

I think you're right about Jeanette.   I worry about my son, yet I hear him laughing online at all hours.  Brave new world.

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1 hour ago, Granny58 said:

And "eventually" is one thing and was common when I was a young adult (still, not high school).   So my impressions are correct then?  That sex can be an expected "activity" of a date (not a requirement, just not a big deal)  just like movies and dinner (or bowling?).  So yes, if that's the case, then I can understand holding off.   

 

I think you're right about Jeanette.   I worry about my son, yet I hear him laughing online at all hours.  Brave new world.

Yeah anyone that thinks sex is a "requirement" of a singular date has a grandiose view of themselves. I told a male friend of mine once, a few years ago "If you've made it to the third date with a woman she WANTS to have sex with you- just don't mess it up." But yes, sexual activity can be an expected element of a date- not required of course but not unreasonable, especially if you've been out a couple of times together before.

 

I think these days if people just want sex they don't date, they hook up- if they want sex plus social interaction they date, if they just want social interaction and fun they hang with friends, so that's why I think there is less pressure to date officially among Jazz's peers. 

@Granny58 it's hard being a Mommy, they always worry about us children even we are 31?. If your son is laughing he is happy that's good (but socialization in person is good too). 

Edited by Scarlett45
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8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yeah anyone that thinks sex is a "requirement" of a singular date has a grandiose view of themselves. I told a male friend of mine once, a few years ago "If you've made it to the third date with a woman she WANTS to have sex with you- just don't mess it up."

 

I think these days if people just want sex they don't date, they hook up- if they want sex plus social interaction they date, if they just want social interaction and fun they hang with friends, so that's why I think there is less pressure to date officially among Jazz's peers. 

@Granny58 it's hard being a Mommy, they always worry about us children even we are 31?. If your son is laughing he is happy that's good (but socialization in person is good too). 

I LOVE YOUR ENTIRE POST.  It helps me understand and it makes me happy!!!!!  Thank you. 

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@Granny58 you're too kind. 

 

@MegD I am an attorney too, and a black female as well so I get what you mean. I think the difference is that as a black child growing up with black parents (one of whom was a woman) I was taught from day one "how to let things go", how to hold your cool when someone asks to touch your hair Vs how to hold your cool when you're being called the N-word. 

Jazz isn't being raised by trans parents who have lived this experience before. 

Edited by Scarlett45
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@Scarlett45. See, I am a white female so I know I can't speak on that experience. As I contemplate adoption and look at older kids and siblings, it is something that I think about. I know that in my area, there are a lot of "hard to place" kids who are simply just not infants and there is a significant population of non-white children. I worry about how I will help whatever child or children I end up adopting to understand the experience of growing up non-white and I have to plan for that. I don't think Jeanette does a very good job of acknowledging that she is not the authority on what Jazz experiences and she really needs to find someone to help Jazz with that. Instead, it seems that she has instead told Jazz that Jazz's opinions are always right, Jazz's experiences are the only way any transgender person encounters the world, and outrage should be voiced as much as possible for ever perceived slight. A lot of what bothers me about her behavior has more to do with the way she presents herself than with her message. She's becoming ruder and more obnoxious as this show continues. At some point, her poor manners and rude tendencies are catch up to her but I think Jeanette and Jazz are going to put it down to intolerance for Jazz's gender than a product of her upbringing. But I also think that Jazz is like many of her generation in this as well.

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@MegD No parent is perfect. I'm not trying to rag on them for not being LGBT. Just like I wouldn't rag on a white parent raising their child of color just because they were white. 

 I believe Jeanette and Michael are doing their best with a unique situation. Jazz is among the first generation of trans kids to transition as kids- she is on the cutting edge of procedures, medical advances and social issues. I don't think her parents are ignorant to the struggles she faces and the real threat of violence, for example Jeanette's rule "You have to disclose-ALWAYS". They have had that rule since Jazz was a little girl before they invited friends over to play. 

That being said between Jazz being "on the front lines", her parents having guilt regarding Jazz' "situation" (I've spoken a bit on this thread regarding things I've faced being a Sib and how there are similarities), general teenage stuff etc, I think Jazz is doing alright. I think she will grow and mature and at 26 be a better person than she was at 16. 

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Dear Impatient,

I haven't taken offense to anything you've written, just having a conversation. So don't worry about that.

 

On 7/21/2017 at 11:28 PM, Impatient said:

 I can't help but remember what it felt like to be 16, 17, 18,......  and to get involved with someone, and be in just a kissing situation (which for me is SUCH an intimate act, kissing ----almost more than intercourse) and to have that person then say "I have to tell you, I am trans.  I felt you should know that."  At that point I would be mortified I think.  

 

Who says that Jazz is going to start kissing someone without letting them know she's trans? She's never indicated that she would do so... 

 

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If we are going to hold to the fine points of the ethics of the situation,  in saying "How you look shouldn't matter, it is what is on the inside that matters", then why go through the outward changes at all?  I think it is because those secondary sexual characteristics signal something in our brains, something that is opposite to what you yourself are.  Women are most often attracted to masculine, men are most often attracted to feminine.   

 

Exactly. Jazz blocking testosterone and taking female hormones means that she has gone through the inward changes to become a woman. Again, if she were just about outward changes, she'd be a drag queen. But she has effectively become a woman on the inside. Her hormonal profile is that of an adult woman. If there were brain scans done on her, her brain would look the same as yours or mine because it went through growing up as a girl. Jazz looks like a woman because she is one now. I'm not saying she's exactly the same as a biological female in every way, but she's now gone through the majority of her life with the same hormones as a female. Hormones are what creates the differences between the sexes, right? So...

 

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Why is it ok for her to rule out dating transmen, but not ok for cis women to rule out dating trans men? And vice versa?

 

Of course it's ok for cis women to rule out dating trans men! Of course it's ok for cis men to rule out dating trans women! No one should feel compelled to date anyone they don't want to or feel like they are obligated to be attracted to anyone that they aren't.  Where do you get that idea?

The world is a diverse place. There are all sorts of unique people in it. Attraction is different for everyone. And there are so many people who's attraction does not fall into the "normal" category. Especially with young people. I don't know how old you are, but I get the impression I am closer to Jazz's generation than you are. People of Jazz's age are so much more comfortable with gender identities and sexualities that fall outside the norm than people of older generations. Jazz is going to have a harder time dating than the average girl, BUUUUT that does not mean she can't find a guy who is genuinely attracted to her as a trans woman. You'd be surprised how many people's sexualities are not all cookie cutter. 

 

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 Isn't this ultimately about making a good match, about Jazz creating a respectable family, with children and success and continues streams of money?  Isn't that what Jeanette is ENTIRELY about?
 

 

I don't think so. I think this is about living a life that is satisfying and happy. 

Edited by mangosplums
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