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The Big Bads: Discuss the Master, Spike and Dru, Angelus, the Mayor, Adam, Glory, Warren and the First

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It's been pointed out (by Jack, IIRC) that it's a little weird for Faith, who's been let down by so many parental/authority figures (abusive mom, dead Watcher, lying Post [Giles ignoring her?]) to suddenly attach so firmly to another in Wilkins.

But isn't also odd that RW I/II/III, who's lived for over 100 years without any dependents beyond his Irish Setter, Rusty, to suddenly be all interested in playing father-figure for Faith?  He kept his relationship with Mr. Trick perfectly professional, the occasional snark on Trick's clothes aside.  Why is Faith suddenly the daughter he never cared to actually make, as far as we know?  Seems a bit of a shift, now that I think about it.

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2 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

But isn't also odd that RW I/II/III, who's lived for over 100 years without any dependents beyond his Irish Setter, Rusty, to suddenly be all interested in playing father-figure for Faith?  He kept his relationship with Mr. Trick perfectly professional, the occasional snark on Trick's clothes aside.  Why is Faith suddenly the daughter he never cared to actually make, as far as we know?  Seems a bit of a shift, now that I think about it.

Good point. Although we don't know much about Tricky Dicky and his (extended) family. What if he fathered a daughter/son in the past but no kid of his had a gift of immortality? What if he or she died very young? Maybe in Faith's case Wilkins just wanted (among other things) to re-capture those past father/child moments (real or imaginable) or simply discovered another (not so evil) side of himself. What if Dick's own youth was harsh and he had a tendency to develop "all this involuntary empathy" (as Willow put it in No Place Like Home) for kids like Faith?  

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On 4/10/2020 at 1:38 PM, lembergwatcher said:

Good point. Although we don't know much about Tricky Dicky and his (extended) family. What if he fathered a daughter/son in the past but no kid of his had a gift of immortality? What if he or she died very young? Maybe in Faith's case Wilkins just wanted (among other things) to re-capture those past father/child moments (real or imaginable) or simply discovered another (not so evil) side of himself. What if Dick's own youth was harsh and he had a tendency to develop "all this involuntary empathy" (as Willow put it in No Place Like Home) for kids like Faith?  

That would have been an interesting storyline, if Wilkins' kids had ever shown up? You must remember he's the one authority figure who never does let Faith down 

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Even though I have always ranked Angel/Angelus as a biggest big bad in the series (it was technically harder to deal with the Mayor, Adam or Glory, but Buffy didn't have personal feelings for any of them), I still find his behavior quite illogical in so many ways. That's probably because deep down inside evil Angelus continued to have feelings for Buffy despite all his rage on the girl for making him feel like human. Because otherwise, like I said, many of his actions seem odd.

First of all, why did he have to give himself away so early? A sophisticated villain (and we get an impression Angelus was exactly that) could have acted differently, i.e. pretended to be good old ensouled Angel while setting a trap for Buffy and the gang.

Then, why waste the access to the Slayer's/Slayer's best friend's apartments on leaving artwork and killing fish??? What did Angel expect to achieve except alerting the Scoobies and making them cast de-invitation spells? He could've tortured Willow to death instead of wasting the opportunity on her fish. He could've done anything to Joyce instead of leaving drawings. Angelus was supposed to be master of torture, not some lame mind games.

Even murdering Jenny almost cost him his unlife by driving Giles, the only experienced member of the gang, into a killing frenzy. Destroying Jenny's work and seriously injuring her could have taken Giles out of the picture making him focused on watching Miss Calendar at the hospital and protecting her from harm.

Since Angelus didn't act on his own I can see no reasons for him not to send his many minions after Joyce, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, Oz or Giles. I mean, he killed a girl Buffy barely knew (Theresa) but never actually tried to lure W/X/C/O/G/J into the trap and then torture, maim, kill or sire any of them. Yes, there were attempts on Willow's, Xander's and Cordy's lives but villains like Angel were supposed to try harder if they didn't succeed at first...  

Taunting Spike wasn't a smart thing to do either. In fact, Angel's disdain for the other vamp turned out to be one of the factors in his eventual downfall with the subsequent sword through the heart and century of torment in Acathla's dimension. JMO, of course. 

Edited by lembergwatcher

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2 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

What did Angel expect to achieve except alerting the Scoobies and making them cast de-invitation spells?

Of course, he may not have known that "de-invitation spells" existed. As to the "bide your time so no one is alerted" there's

Spoiler

"Evil" Cordy's attempt to kill Willow on Angel, which would have served no purpose except to alert everyone that she's evil (Cordy, explaining Willow's death to the gang: "The Beastmaster showed up, stabbed Willow in the back, ignored me, and then left". Not even Connor would believe that one)

 

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Additionally, having already left Buffy an emotional wreck at his apartment, there's no reason that Angel shouldn't move on to devastating Buffy by killing her friends.  ("It's not the kind of message you send", etc.)  It's not as if he knew that Jenny was Rom and had been watching for this and had an uncle with a direct line to the Elder Woman and was getting early alerts about his reversion, much less that she would be taking to prowling the SHS halls with a big ol' cross (which Xander made good use of).

Undercover Jana FTW!  I grant you that he recovered well enough from her making him accelerate his plans 😢 , but I can't really blame him for being taken by surprise, here.

Yes, he could have kept going at the "kill her friends and family" tactic, but once Buffy failed to wilt as he hoped and instead burnt down his home, he moved on to the "just kill Buffy, already" part of the plan (Killed by Death, IOHEFY). And once the mutual possession made him feel all soulful and ook-y, he regrouped for a bit, and then had the Aurelian Dream (ending the world) dropped in his lap, and IMO naturally went for the bigger game, rather than keeping all "Buffy-whipped".

Yes, Angel's motivations change as time goes on, but I don't find anything that strains credibility.  But JMO.

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12 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Yes, he could have kept going at the "kill her friends and family" tactic, but once Buffy failed to wilt as he hoped and instead burnt down his home, he moved on to the "just kill Buffy, already" part of the plan

Angel could have left the "kill Buffy's friends and family" thing to his minions while moving on to whatever he wanted to do to Buffy. Those things aren't mutually exclusive.

 

13 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

And once the mutual possession made him feel all soulful and ook-y, he regrouped for a bit, and then had the Aurelian Dream (ending the world) dropped in his lap, and IMO naturally went for the bigger game, rather than keeping all "Buffy-whipped".

He only underestimated Spike which is itself quite forgivable. Even though Dear Forehead should have kept an eye on Deadboy Jr. because, as they say, keep your friends close but your enemies closer. 

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4 hours ago, lembergwatcher said:

Angel could have left the "kill Buffy's friends and family" thing to his minions while moving on to whatever he wanted to do to Buffy.

Well, there's precious little point in wasting time and resources trying to kill Willow and Xander if Buffy isn't going be around to feel the effects of their deaths.  There's hardly any need to split focus and effort that way, I'd say.

Remember, this is personal for Angel; it wasn't Giles who made Angel "feel like a real human being".

(Except in some of the more-obscure fanfic, I suppose.

Quote

ANGEL:  No, really…I thought you were a pro.

GILES:  I don't see how what I did to pay my expenses at University is any of your business.  And don't bother trying to play any mind games with me…you never had it so good.  We both know that.

But, still.)

Edited by Halting Hex

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