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S13.E07: Week 7: Switzerland

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I'm wondering if Bryan is getting the F1 edit to throw us off the track. Peter talks about not knowing if he is "ready" to propose, so Rachel's TH says what if he doesn't and she's left alone at the end of this show. We got that edit in Nick's season, lots of discussion about how Vanessa wouldn't move, wouldn't compromise. My guess as a totally unspoiled viewer is Peter will be F1, Bryan will propose and be rejected, and Dean will be left after Rachel meets his turban-wearing father (if that's really his father). And to the poster who compared Dean's dad preview to Taxidermy Dad ... a big YES! It's editing/dramah gold.

Although heck, Eric could be F1 for all I know.

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On 7/11/2017 at 6:18 PM, Kira53 said:

Who is AJ?  Someone mentioned him before can't figure out who that is referring to.

 

 Eric used some very poor grammar over and over during  his part of the group date.

"All of the men in my family was in the streets."  " I done seen friends in the projects who don't have clothes for school, who don't have sneakers. I done seen family members getting high.   I done seen abusive relationships.  I done seen friends I grew up with killed in the streets."

I thought Eric spoke very sincerely and I felt very sorry for the life that he had to overcome. I admire him for what has been able to do for himself given the circumstances of his childhood. When I was younger I would have tried to save Eric.  Hell, I did it twice with disastrous results.   Now that I'm older and mature I would really avoid making a quick choice of someone who has experienced as much damage as Eric, even though he appears to have risen above it.  But at least both my rescues were well spoken.  One was even a highly educated physician with an engineering degree  from highly prestigious Ivy League schools and then earned.  MBA but he came from such a terrible background  that serious drugs and alcohol became a problem for him.  I can't see Rachel picking a person with both Bad grammar and a bad background.  Someone who's never seen a healthy relationship is going to have a very hard time having a healthy relationship. I don't mean that Eric can never get there, but it takes time.  I wish him well.  I do believe that Eric has grown tremendously from this experience and someone will come into his life to helping make it even better.  

As an African-American, I selfishly wish that Rachel was going on a home visit with a nice upper-class black guyso that everybody would just see the way a lot of people of black people live in nice houses with good grammar and wide world experience and great jobs.  Instead we're going to see poverty-stricken Baltimore and crazy guru daddy from Dean's house. Probably highly entertaining.  Some of the black guys that she was attracted to that showed  her no heat at all, are apparently from some of those great backgrounds that we won't gThset to see.  The Martha's Vineyard/Sag Harbour set of old money.  Visit them at their summer home.  BTW, we had a ski house.

The last paragraph a thousand times.  I don't think Rachel has to choose someone with a similar or better background than she has, but I do think instead of the LEE message they focused on it would have been nice for them to cast some men that didn't have a tragic backstory and show the viewers different sides, even if they knew they were not going to last.  They knew Waboom, Blake and Lee were not going to last, but instead of exposing us to some intelligent men with life experience, that's what we got....including one who has never even had a relationship. 

   Dean, Joshiah, and Eric (and lord knows who else we didn't hear about) all seem to be potentially damaged.  Most of the people seem to have had some type of difficult background, or they cast ones that were way too young (Fred, Anthony) to be serious potential mates, with Kenny the wrestler/stripper and Diggy who is still buying shoes thrown in.   Age wise Will and Josiah were in the range, but they portrayed Will as not have much experience with Black women,and Josiah as a bragging, posing, cartoon. 

I don't know if they didn't spend a lot of time with the casting process, or if those type of men just would not apply for the show, but I do think this show is known well enough that they could have gotten a higher caliber of contestants, especially as they were touting Rachel as an older more mature Bachelorette.  I hear one of the previous seasons had a black man that was an MBA from Harvard, MIT or somewhere ( I don't know if that is true or what season) but  could I have gotten one of those...and a few more attractive men. 

 I just see a lot of whiny  (or cocky) men, some looking for someone to save them or mother them.  Does anyone  really see Dean or Eric as people emotionally ready for marriage?   With "all that being said" I would actually rather see her decide to date Dean or Eric and not marry Peter or Bryan. 

Do you still have the ski house?  I'll go, ha, ha!!  I went with a guy years ago and I had never been exposed to skiing and the whole experience, including the right clothes to wear.  I made such a fool of myself.  Yeah, he was one of those who had a lot of world experience and I was way out of my league. 

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1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

....I would actually rather see her decide to date Dean or Eric and not marry Peter or Bryan....

...Do you still have the ski house?  I'll go, ha, ha!!...

A. yes

B. I could learn to ski, right? :)  or at least drink soothing warm alcoholic apres ski beverages around a fireplace 

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22 hours ago, kingshearte said:

Finally, my biggest annoyance of this episode was one of Rachel's coats. Consider this is a slightly ranty PSA for those of you who may not be aware. Often, when one purchases a garment with pleats or slits, there is a large X-shaped stitch at the bottom of the pleats/slits. This is intended to keep the garment properly flat during shipping, so the garment doesn't end up with stuff awkwardly creased. You're supposed to remove this stitch before you wear the garment. I've noticed that many many people in real life seem to be unaware of this, and run around with that stitch intact (and I often wonder if those people think their item is in fact damaged when that stitch eventually breaks, because, hello, it's not designed to withstand daily wear!). But I noticed that one of Rachel's coats appeared to have that stitch intact this week, and don't the leads on this show have stylists? Shouldn't that person, at least, understand something so basic? Any stylist who lets a client outside without taking care of that has no business calling themselves a stylist.

MARRY ME. YOU ARE MY SOULMATE. 

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I'd like to thank the show for letting us know for sure that Bryan and His Incredible Cheek Implants will be one of the final two.  I guess I always knew it but thanks for removing the mystery.  

I'd also like to thank them for the valuable update on Peter's bowel movements.  Lovely.

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20 hours ago, fib said:

Holy moly.  With all this talk about diction, I cant believe I forgot to mention how ludicrously bad Rachel was at pronouncing places names in French.  Considering French is considered one of the the most beautiful languages in the world (by people who have clearly never heard the Quebecois speak it ;-) ), it sure sounded like ?To me.  I kept picturing Joey when Pheobe was trying to teach him french phonetically: she would say, "Zhe ma pell" and he would repeat, "bloo dee blah".

OMG, yes! I don't know how I forgot about that! When she said something about the "vee-ell ville," I initially assumed it was a name or something, and then she said it meant "old," and my brain came to a screeching halt. That does not even approach anything like the correct pronunciation of "vieille." Yikes. I imagine there were others, and I expect that she probably also massacred some Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian words (and I'm sure I would, too, to be fair), but it is rough to listen to when it's a language you do know.

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20 hours ago, fib said:

Holy moly.  With all this talk about diction, I cant believe I forgot to mention how ludicrously bad Rachel was at pronouncing places names in French.  Considering French is considered one of the the most beautiful languages in the world (by people who have clearly never heard the Quebecois speak it ;-) ), it sure sounded like ?To me.  I kept picturing Joey when Pheobe was trying to teach him french phonetically: she would say, "Zhe ma pell" and he would repeat, "bloo dee blah".

OMG, yes! I don't know how I forgot about that! When she said something about the "vee-ell ville," I initially assumed it was a name or something, and then she said it meant "old," and my brain came to a screeching halt. That does not even approach anything like the correct pronunciation of "vieille." Yikes. I imagine there were others, and I expect that she probably also massacred some Danish, Swedish, and Norwegian words (and I'm sure I would, too, to be fair), but it is rough to listen to when it's a language you do know.

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On 7/12/2017 at 2:40 PM, Irlandesa said:

I sincerely hope, for your sake, that the man of your dreams doesn't have a standard that his life partner know that couldn't care less is the proper grammatical structure to indicate that something doesn't matter to you.

Normally, I wouldn't be so pedantic but it's just an example of how we all likely have improper grammar ticks that are standard even though they're textbook wrong.

Ahem, grammar tics. Just keeping the game of pointing out other people's mistakes going. ;) (In a joking way, I am more than ready for the grammar topic to die at this point.) 

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Is Rachel so horny for Bryan that she cannot ask the freaking red flag question? Which is what did his mom say or do to the woman her cared so much for or expected from her that made her so freaked that she broke up with him because of his mom? Rachel what the hell type of lawyer are you?

Of course we might have gotten an edited conversation.  Maybe she did ask, but they wanted us to tune in next week with that question on our minds.

 

I have to assume that was edited, I cannot imagine that Rachel's ear wouldn't have been tweaked by that. She certainly picked up on Will's remark about only dating white women due to [alleged] proximity and clued into Josiah's tendency to speak in generalities instead of having a real conversation with her. She had to have wondered about what his mom could possibly have done in what sounded like a very short time that made his girlfriend run for the hills. 

Another possibility, which would have also involved heavy editing to the conversation, is that Bryan perhaps displayed some signs of fierce protectiveness toward his mom and it made her back off from getting into that conversation because she's really that gone on Bryan. 

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I wonder if it was the editors who made Peter's story (about his last girlfriend) sound so strange. Maybe he had to many fans in the beginning of the season....I don't know but he is still my favorite. I also like Dean but he is immature (but adorable). Eric seems ok but for some reason I get hustler vibes from him but no where near as bad as the hustler/player swarmy vibes I get from Brian who I can't stand.

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On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 6:18 PM, Kira53 said:

As an African-American, I selfishly wish that Rachel was going on a home visit with a nice upper-class black guyso that everybody would just see the way a lot of people of black people live in nice houses with good grammar and wide world experience and great jobs.  Instead we're going to see poverty-stricken Baltimore and crazy guru daddy from Dean's house. Probably highly entertaining.  Some of the black guys that she was attracted to that showed  her no heat at all, are apparently from some of those great backgrounds that we won't get to see.  The Martha's Vineyard/Sag Harbour set of old money.  Visit them at their summer home.  BTW, we had a ski house.

I agree.  

I am kind of bummed that Rachel seems to have disregarded most of the Black men on the show in favor of the white guys.  And it's pretty obvious that the one Black guy left is one she's not really interested in.  

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:29 AM, dleighg said:

Yeah I think people *know* that saying "Mark and me went to the movies" is wrong, so they think "I" is the appropriate word to use for proper English in all places. So we get "This trip has been so wonderful for Rachel and I." 

I agree.   But when they talk about "Rachel and I's relationship"  - that's what drives me crazy.  

On ‎7‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 11:59 AM, saber5055 said:

I've dated multiple white, black, hispanic and Chinese guys as well as some guys of "unknown" ethnicity. I could care less what color or race a guy is if he is a good guy. AND he can speak correctly. If one said, "Her and I's relationship," he's gone. If one said "I'm going witchu," HE'S gone, too. I have my standards and grammar is one of them. In fact, in my online dating profile, I wrote being able to use pronouns correctly is a must. Talk about code and race and where someone lives ... I could care less. I just know what I look for in the men I date, and correct grammar is at the top. Eric is off my "want-to-date" list, and his background, race and upbringing has nothing to do "witchit."

yeah, I was in total agreement with you until you said you COULD care less, when you meant you couldn't care less.   

No offense meant, it's just I was agreeing with all your language peeves, and then you hit one of mine. 

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Lol.  You all are better grammar nerds than i am, I guess.  I totally missed the "could care less" comment, but I was totally stuck on how it's clearly "wiffit" not "witchit"

 

?

Edited by fib
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On 7/13/2017 at 1:00 PM, catrice2 said:

 I hear one of the previous seasons had a black man that was an MBA from Harvard, MIT or somewhere ( I don't know if that is true or what season) but  could I have gotten one of those...and a few more attractive men. 

That would have been Ian from Kaitlyn's season. Yes he had a impressive education but unfortunately he had a oversized ego to match. Way to cocky. He let his true colors show when he went off on Kaitlyn (warranted or not) and said some pretty offensive things. 

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16 minutes ago, yorklee2 said:

That would have been Ian from Kaitlyn's season. Yes he had a impressive education but unfortunately he had a oversized ego to match. Way to cocky. He let his true colors show when he went off on Kaitlyn (warranted or not) and said some pretty offensive things. 

He could not be cockier than Bryan or Josiah....maybe in a different way.   Now for the shallow...was he attractive?  

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1 hour ago, catrice2 said:

He could not be cockier than Bryan or Josiah....maybe in a different way.   Now for the shallow...was he attractive?  

It was slightly in a different way. He was more overly impressed with himself and thought all women should fall at his feet because he went to Harvard. Which he constantly mentioned in his TM's. He thought he was the cat's meow and all the other men couldn't possibly be as good a catch as him. No humility to speak of. Blech.

He was a fairly attractive man IMO but not as much as he thought he was. Certainly that attitude negated any visual attractiveness.

Edited by yorklee2
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I thought everything Ian said to Kaitlyn was accurate. Granted, it was two years ago, so I don't recall exactly what it was, but I think it might have been a reverse Wrong Reasons accusation on the lead. She WAS acting ridiculous hooking up with certain guys and not taking the time to actually get to know other guys. Plus, Ian WAS too good for Kaitlyn! Just because she's the "lead" doesn't automatically make her some great catch. She was a part-time dance instructor with an annoying, raunchy, not-funny-but-thinks-she's-hilarious personality. He's a handsome, Harvard-educated lawyer (or some such professional career). He knows his worth; and he sure as hell deserved better than Kaitlyn. I would say the same for anyone about not settling just to have someone.

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1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

He's a handsome, Harvard-educated lawyer (or some such professional career). He knows his worth; and he sure as hell deserved better than Kaitlyn. I would say the same for anyone about not settling just to have someone.

Sure, but bow out gracefully.  You dont have to be an asshole to someone just because they arent the right match for you.  Unless youre just in it for the screentime (Ian was).  There is a way to break up with someone, and Ian showed he isnt great with people in that moment. Not that he was wrong about Kaitlyn.  He was just an asshole. 

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Ian would be appalled that we forget he went to Princeton, not Harvard. He was obviously too "good" for someone like Kaitlyn in many ways and like many if the men in that show (remember that was the Kaitlyn vs Britt stupid idea, so some of them were probably cast for Britt) seemed to want out early. Even Ian thought he spoke out poorly, which is not something Josiah or Bryan did.

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5 hours ago, MakeMeLaugh said:

Ian would be appalled that we forget he went to Princeton, not Harvard.

I'm reading this thread thinking "who was Kaitlyn's Ian?"  Then I saw this comment and my Kaitlyn PTSD came back!

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I'm not even a native English speaker, yet it's clear to me that Eric is speaking a dialect and I have no problem understanding him. I also find it simply incorrect to compare a dialect to obvious grammatical mistakes like "Rachel and I's". The whole point of a dialect is that it has its own rules (unlike an accent), so saying it's still grammatically incorrect and a sign of poor education makes no sense, because if the standard written version of a language is the only acceptable one, then that means dialects shouldn't exist at all. And guess what? They do. And I for one am glad they do, because variety is the spice of life. I'm sure Eric knows how to write SAE since he's graduated college and all, but he's obviously grown up speaking AAVE and that's how he's most comfortable expressing himself. I don't see why he should make an effort to speak "properly" just because he's on TV. He's not in a job interview, he's trying to date and fall in love with a woman, a black woman no less who is surely familiar with AAVE even if it's not something she uses at home. In my opinion he would be doing himself and Rachel a disservice by expressing himself in an unnatural manner. What if he did speak SAE to her, they got engaged and then he switched back to AAVE and she had a problem with it? I think he's best off doing what he's doing, and that is being his authentic self. I don't think  Rachel has that romantic spark with him, but I think she does appreciate how real he is and that's why he's still there unlike the highly educated but stiff black men. 

When it comes to the use of 'articulate' as a compliment, I'm going to have to dissent a bit. I can see how that could be seen as offensive, but I disagree with the notion that the word would never be used to describe a white lead or contestant, and that's because I know for a fact I've used it myself on several occasions. Like Ben for example, I praised him for being articulate because the lead before him (farmer Chris) was one of the least articulate people to ever grace this franchise. He could not string a coherent sentence together to save his life when put on the spot, so Ben being able to express himself clearly was noteworthy to me. Before Chris it was Juan Pablo, who wasn't even a native English speaker. There are also plenty of contestants who insert 'like' after every other word or 'you know' at the end of every sentence, hesitate a lot and get tongue-tied, have painful vocal fry etc. That bothers me infinitely more than any dialect or even the occasional grammatical error, so I always notice when a contestant can express themselves effectively in full sentences and is quick on their feet. Rachel is one of those rare gems. Maybe it's because she's a lawyer, but I am in awe of her verbal skills. The way she handled DeMario? A++. Verbal communication is one area is personally struggle with, so I'm always impressed with good speakers and I might have even unwittingly called Rachel articulate. I certainly did not mean articulate in comparison to other African Americans, but articulate in comparison to most Bachelor contestants. Is 'eloquent' a more acceptable word? I would hate to think she can't be praised for communication skills at all without it being seen as racist.

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10 hours ago, MsPH said:

I might have even unwittingly called Rachel articulate. I certainly did not mean articulate in comparison to other African Americans, but articulate in comparison to most Bachelor contestants.

I may have called Rachel articulate, too, but for the same reason as the above. I thought Andi was very articulate, too.

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MsPH, thank you for your post.  I had to skip the last few pages of this forum because so many people are acting like experts on topic about which they clearly know so little.  No slang is not the same thing as AAVE and just because someone isn't speaking a SAE does not mean that they are A) uneducated or B) speaking incorrectly.  I just can't put the effort into having these sorts of discussions online anymore.  I wish more people would take a good sociolinguistics course in college, but my personal experience tells me even that is sometimes not enough for people to move past their own deeply entrenched biases.  C'est la vie.

Overall I like all of the guys left, but I fear Dean's family issues are too unresolved for him to be marriage material.

Edited by piccadilly83
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On 7/16/2017 at 9:41 PM, MsPH said:

Ben for example, I praised him for being articulate because the lead before him (farmer Chris) was one of the least articulate people to ever grace this franchise.

Interesting, I didn't find Ben particularly articulate...he peppers his sentences with way too many "likes" for my taste.

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