S07.E01: Dragonstone

[SeanC]

29 minutes ago, doram said:

At least in the books, she does seem to wise up. On the show, it's 14 (or is it 15 or 16, I have no idea how time runs on the show) -year-old Sansa that convinced herself that marrying the Bolton was a good idea because Littlefinger would never hurt her. 

Like I said - Sansa lacks basic common sense and that is not on her father. Short of putting her in a bubble for the rest of her life, I don't know how Ned was supposed to 'train' her. 

In the show, supposedly, marrying the Boltons for revenge(!!!) is presented as having been a good idea if only Ramsay hadn't been a psycho.  It's a dumb plotline, unquestionably, but it's not intended to reflect negatively on Sansa.  Cogman said as much on the commentary for 506, that Sansa simply had bad information on Ramsay and upon discovering this, she immediately tried to escape.

As for how Ned could have trained her, he could have trained her.  Simple as that.

Edited July 19, 2017 by SeanC

[Katsullivan]

8 minutes ago, screamin said:

When did Jon ever remember Sansa ill-treating him?

It was implied when she apologised to him in season 6. 

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Why would anyone need to take her by the hand and explain up is up and down is down?

You know, this might sound flippant but I it's possible that after 11 years Ned had come to realise that his daughter's psyche was so far removed from reality that trying to reach her was pointless. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Katsullivan

[screamin]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Or maybe Sansa was just a bad person. Since she had 3 brothers and 1 sister that didn't think Jon should be treated like dirt? 

 

No, really, when did Sansa mistreat Jon and treat him like dirt? I really don't remember this ever happening. Please enlighten me.

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She apologised to him in season 6. 

Yes, she did. But that wasn't my question. My question was, "When did Jon remember Sansa ill-treating him?" And the answer is, IIRC, he didn't. Ever. The worst she ever expressed toward him as  a child in the books was condescending pity - and yes, that's worth an apology to your brother, but it's still not either mistreating him or acting like he was dirt. When Jon remembers Sansa in the books - which isn't often, they were never close - as far as I can recall, it's usually with some degree of fondness (remembering that she advised him always to say a girl's name is pretty, for example). For what it's worth, in the rare moments Sansa thought of Jon in exile, it was with the same fondness. I think it's nice that that same fondness comes through even now when the characters are supposed to be quarreling.

Edited July 19, 2017 by screamin
To answer Kat Sullivan

[Katsullivan]

6 minutes ago, SeanC said:

In the show, supposedly, marrying the Boltons for revenge(!!!) is presented as having been a good idea if only Ramsay hadn't been a psycho.  It's a dumb plotline, unquestionably, but it's not intended to reflect negatively on Sansa.  Cogman said as much on the commentary for 506, that Sansa simply had bad information on Ramsay and upon discovering this, she immediately tried to escape.

There definitely seems to be a pattern here of dumb plotlines from the writers and Sansa. 

Edited July 19, 2017 by Katsullivan

[Raachel2008]

1 minute ago, SeanC said:

since she was a savvy, politically-minded woman herself.

In real life, Empress Maria Theresa of Habsburg,  who for 40 years ruled Austria, Hungary etc and was one of the greatest monarchs in history,  had 14 daughters she married to different houses all over Europe; she never gave political education to the girls - including Maria Antonia, who later became Marie Antoinette. 

So, yeah, I do buy Catelyn would not give her daughters political education.

[GrailKing]

1 minute ago, Katsullivan said:

She apologised to him in season 6. 

You know, this might sound flippant but I it's possible that after 11 years Ned had come to realise that his daughter's psyche was so far removed from reality that trying to reach her was pointless. 

Now you're reaching, do you think young people or even grown ups have brain damage for wanting to see the greener grass, to marry a Prince, be an actor or President?

This is what I see of many people coming down on an 11 year who was a bit naive because Dad didn't want her to see the world as it actually is.

Can't balme Sansa here this falls on mom and dad and septa Mordane ( though she was doing her job ) for not peeling away the songs.

[Katsullivan]

14 minutes ago, SeanC said:

They had three backers from amongst the nobles -- Lyanna, and two unseen lords, Hornwood and Mazin.

So who gets what? Do they divvy up the 2 lands between the 3 houses? Maybe in the ratio of the men they contributed?

What happens to the Lords that Did Nothing, supporting Bolton by silent consent? What is their punishment for them?

IMO, it was a slippery slope that Jon chose not to descend. 

[SeanC]

11 minutes ago, doram said:

It's more likely that she received all the education that she was supposed to but she filtered it through that space between her ears. We've seen Sansa being unable to grasp concepts like "don't talk trash about the King that holds you hostage to his new fiancee and her powerful grandmother while living in said King's house". I don't think it's far-fetched to imagine that Sansa simply refused to learn.

Er, no.  There's no indication at any point that Sansa or Arya were given a political education, and in fact we're explicitly shown in the books that Ned doesn't like the idea of them being involved in that stuff.  The one time in the first book that we see Sansa anywhere near court business is when Septa Mordane takes her to the audience for the Riverlanders attacked by Gregor Clegane, and Ned explicitly is angry at her having been taken there because he doesn't want her to hear about stuff like this.

And you've got the meaning of the scene with the Tyrells completely backward.  Sansa knows quite well that the safest thing is to keep silent.  The point is that she bravely decides to warn Margaery anyway.

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And you're completely ignoring Arya who was younger and brought up in the same sheltered environment.

I was not ignoring her.  I was specifically querying how Dany factored into this.  Yes, Arya handled it better.  She also needed Ned's parenting, and we see Ned helping her with her feelings of guilt, etc. afterwards.  None of that negates that Sansa needed guidance and didn't get it.  Arya could have used more guidance too, in fact.  They are both children.

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Or maybe Sansa was just a bad person. Since she had 3 brothers and 1 sister that didn't think Jon should be treated like dirt? 

Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with the discussion about Ned's parenting in KL, but the boys weren't raised the same, and Arya specifically bonded with Jon because she felt like an outcast among her siblings for not looking like a Tully and not being able to meet her parents' expectations of ladylike behaviour.

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When did Ned encourage Sansa after Lady's beheading to mentally adjust herself to marry Joffrey?

The part where he left her betrothed to Joffrey and did nothing to advise her on next steps?  That's a clear parental signal that nothing is wrong, or else that Ned is neglecting her, neither of which would be particularly good vibes for a kid.  Sansa went for the former explanation.

Edited July 19, 2017 by SeanC

[Blonde Gator]

33 minutes ago, SeanC said:

And?

None of that changes that Sansa desperately needed parental guidance, and didn't get it.  She was put in a confusing and complicated situation (by Ned) and floundered.

Bran is a good counterexample, in fact, as he had Rodrik Cassell and Maester Luwin doing all the real work and advising him.  If Robb had left him in charge of Winterfell with no advisors, that would have been negligent in the extreme.

Robb, likewise, had advisors (most obviously his mother), was older (still young), and had been trained extensively to take a leadership role by Ned.

All excellent points.  I can't really blame Ned for Sansa's lack of education regarding court.  That should have been her mother's role, and by extension, Septa Mordane's.  I think Ned favored Arya in the daughter department, because (a) she was a tomboy and (b) she is pretty much Lyanna V.2.0, and Ned loved his sister dearly.  Having said that, I think neither Stark parent ever anticipated Ned's role as Hand, and were grossly unprepared for that.  Had Bran not been pushed out the window, I don't know how the move to KL would have gone.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, so perhaps Robband the boys would have stayed behind.  Catelyn should have prepared her daughters better, once she learned they'd accompany their father to KL.  But by then, she'd become a true northerner, and had lost any court acumen she'd once had, if any.  Sansa was rather full of herself in KL, before things went badly, as only young girls can be, and refused to listen to her Septa's advice.  Ned certainly didn't help by his stony northern silence.  She was a young and naive child, set adrift in a nest of vipers.

[GrailKing]

9 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

There definitely seems to be a pattern here of dumb plotlines from the writers and Sansa. 

Well it's the butterfly effect GRRM mentioned.

Once they decided to have Sansa be Jeyne Poole and throw out her Vale arc they screwed themselves, we can't blame Sansa, LF, Aiden or Sophie; B & W have to look in the mirror for this.

[SeanC]

Just now, Blonde Gator said:

Had Bran not been pushed out the window, I don't know how the move to KL would have gone.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, so perhaps Robband the boys would have stayed behind. 

Catelyn, Robb and Rickon were going to stay in Winterfell, while Bran would have gone with Ned and the girls to KL (Ned specifically thought that Bran's lovability would be useful in encouraging goodwill between the Stark and Lannister children).

[GrailKing]

2 minutes ago, doram said:

Is she 11 or 13? Why does her age change (with whatever point is being made in her defence)?

In the books Sansa is 11 when she is betrothed, 12 at the BOBWB, 13 at the Eyrie ( but saying 14 as Alayne ) in show 13 at the start.

[stillshimpy]

50 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Arya was 9 - in the same situation - and managed to stick to being loyal to her father. 

No, they weren't stuck in the same situation.   Arya had to fight for survival among everyone she met, no matter where she went, with the protection of her anonymity to help aid her.  She'd have been in a far worse situation had it been known that she was Arya Stark because then, instead of hurting her, they'd have ransomed her back to the Queen.   Right back to where Sansa was among adults, all of whom were trying to use her specifically because of who she was and knew that they were doing it, as a person with not just non-existent experience in this, she'd been taught to actively trust people like the Queen for her entire sheltered life which was half her problem.  She was sheltered.   As was Arya, but Sansa pursued her dutifully expected role and Arya pursued the things she was naturally better at and appealed to her more.  

In the books, Arya is initially jealous of Sansa, she doesn't feel superior to her.  Sansa is the one that is considered to be doing it right.  Sansa is learning her lessons the same way the boys are, in the way their parents assigned to them.  Arya rebelled not because she hated it all, she hated that she wasn't good at it (in the books) it's the series that removed that part.  

That Arya's and Sansa's differences are also about sibling rivalry.   It's just Arya's choices gave her at least a heads up on some things to do.  She was accepted and primarily protected for quite a while when Sansa was alone in a pit of vipers, who all knew what they wished to do with her and why and she was just trying to unlearn every childhood thing she'd valued and believed.  

They were both remarkable and amazing to survive but Arya's was a quest for survival and finding her family.  She had a variety of people with her for quite a while.  She had it hard but Sansa did also and arguably worse.   All of these people were used to court intrigue and backstabbing as a way of life, having to be insincere to uphold your own interest and she was learning that stuff on the fly. 

It's never going to be a contest anyway but if it was, the only person out of all of that going to is comparable to the journey would be...Jon.  Actually.   Jon's journey to the Wall stripped him of a lot of his childhood illusions shattered along the way, including anger at his father for not telling him how the world really was, or what the Wall really was.  Then first season Jon, on this show, really not setting stiff-upper-lip standards the way book Jon did.   That kid was so emo I kept expecting him to have CW style music playing underneath his scenes.  And both of their storylines revolve around what their (at least in one case supposed) identity in that world was reacted to and used by those around them when it came to their worth.

Arya had to lose her identity wherever she went so that she wouldn't end up in Sansa's position and she knew that would be her fate, they'd send her back to the Queen.  Yoran hid her identity for her and then that's what kept her alive throughout, that and her wits.  Sansa had to stay alive with everyone knowing full well who she was and coming up with new and horrible ways to use that against her, while she was being surrounded on all sides by people who were trying to use her.   That she kept expecting that her rescuer would show up is sad as hell, but then the poor kid took so long to fully lose her Starkianess that every time someone new showed up looking to use her for something, she mistook their kindness for ...actual kindness.  

 

They have both had it really hard because all they had to was rebuild their entire world view while being hunted and Sansa had to primarily live by her wits against people who had done this their entire lives and had successfully murdered kings.  She's done okay.  She took forever to let belief in this world's innate goodness to fade into history but since that was all she had there with her, her Needle of sorts, I can understand why she did.   Eventually, she just stopped really being Sansa Stark and became a thing shaped by her experience.   So did Arya, it seems but both suffered a lot for it.   Sansa had to be locked in a tower and treated as a chewbone for Ramsay's inner savagery before her belief in people could die that fully.  Arya's did too.    One looked a lot better and required participating in court intrigue (lose every family lesson you ever learned or you die) as a Stark, whereas the other one was heartbreaking on such a level that  "I snapped like a wet carrot and for two years was murder incorporated with nothing but vengeance as my companion, my soul stopped there and was frozen, I thought it was lost forever" makes turning out as an assassin not really all that bad, given how much it must have devastated her to see what had happened to her family.

All the Stark kids suffered terribly but Arya's damage may be repairable.  That scene at the fire suggests it's possible that she'll someday see people as possibly at least good in larger measures than they are bad.  I don't see how Sansa ever does that when the people who could have saved her were her father's sworn bannermen and did she help get herself into that mess?  Oh hell yes, she did.  But that isn't the same as even coming close to deserving that much world destruction for her.  

Edited July 19, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Katsullivan]

28 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Dany was older, had completely different (and much less sheltered) life experience, and took time to grow into her role as khaleesi.

This was obviously not the intention but I can't help laughing at the irony that Sansa's privilege disadvantaged her. 

Because the meta-analysis of that (real life parallels, etc) might explain why some people has such a visceral dislike towards the character.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Katsullivan

[screamin]

15 minutes ago, doram said:

Probably because we don't see a lot pre-series? But we get into Sansa's head in the books and she thinks about that (in her typical Sansa way where she considers how she'd be grateful to see "even" Jon, the way someone would say they'd be grateful to eat "even" stale bread because they are that hungry.) 

So neither the show nor the books ever showed Sansa mistreat Jon. All Jon's memories of her throughout the books are either fond (as when she gives him the ultimately very helpful advice to always tell a girl her name is pretty) or at worst neutral, remembering her as part of the background to people who are more important to him. And on that lack of evidence you assume she MUST have treated Jon like dirt, and based on that baseless assumption you come to the conclusion that she was a bad person since childhood? Come on, loosen up a little.

Edited July 19, 2017 by screamin

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Well if Beyonce killed my dog, I won't be a fan.

Except it was her dad, to her I'm sure it felt like her dad betrayed her.

[SeanC]

5 minutes ago, doram said:

Is she 11 or 13? Why does her age change (with whatever point is being made in her defence)?

She was 11 in AGOT, and 13 in Season 1.  The age varies depending on which people are primarily thinking of.  I don't think it's particularly notable either way, since we're talking about a child at either age.

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So she was acting as stupidly as she's accused her father and her brother????

If we're going by the show, yes.  Hence, she's meant to have learned her lesson and be advising Jon of the same.

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Obviously something was wrong. Sansa has eyes and ears and some form of mental acuity. She doesn't need her Daddy to tell her that bad people kill innocent pets. 

Well then why is Daddy still making her marry Joffrey?  Surely he would let her know if something was wrong?  That just gets back to the fact that Ned is the responsible adult here, and Sansa's not hiding that she's still in love with Joffrey.  It's incumbent on him to providing, y'know, parenting.

Edited July 19, 2017 by SeanC

[Raachel2008]

Whoa am I the only one who remembers season 1? Ned wanted to break off  Sansa and Joffrey's engagement and he wanted to send her and Arya back to Winterfell. Then Sansa made a scene saying she loved Joffrey and they were going to have cute blonde babies or something like that. 

[SeanC]

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

This was obviously not the intention but I can't help laughing at the irony that Sansa's privilege disadvantaged her. 

Because the meta-analysis of that (real life parallels, etc) might explain why some people has such a visceral dislike towards the character.

All of the Stark kids are privileged, relative to the non-Stark protagonists of the series (Dany and Tyrion, mainly) of having grown up in a basically happy, supportive household, which informs all their arcs of running into the rough nature of the real world.  Sansa is definitely the most sheltered of the bunch, because Ned gave the boys more of a worldly education (a point that the show made in this episode, actually) and, of the girls, Arya's inability to conform to gender norms pushed her into a different vantage on Winterfell.  To that add Sansa's habit of trying to convince herself that things will be wonderful if she only does what she's told.

Just now, Raachel2008 said:

Whoa am I the only one who remembers season 1? Ned wanted to break off  Sansa and Joffrey's engagement and he wanted to send her and Arya back to Winterfell. Then Sansa made a scene saying she loved Joffrey and they were going to have cute blonde babies or something like that. 

That happened.  It was also (in the books) too little, too late, because he'd done nothing up to that point to give Sansa any understanding of what was going on.  In the show, likewise, albeit without the consequence.  He'd let Sansa go on engaged to Joffrey and thinking everything was okay for several months.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Ned took her to King's Landing where she was captured and held for years by the Lannisters, and did nothing much to prepare her for the real world (which is a point made in this episode, which Jon as much as concedes).  It would be fairly obvious why she would think that.  Sansa didn't say he didn't try to protect her, but that he failed, which he ultimately did.

No, he did not fail. She is alive, because he sacrificed something that he valued highly - his honor - and confessed to treason. And then got executed for it.  Is Sansa blaming him for not having the foresight to know what was going to happen in KL and for not seeing through LF's plans while he was in WF? Man, she is such an idiot.

And how is not preparing her for this world his fault? That was her fault for being close-minded and picking up the worst traits from Septa Mordane. But this sounds very much like book Sansa - blaming other people for her mistakes. That's what she's always done.  Ned allowing Arya to train with Syrio gave her the chance to escape KL. Ned teaching Jon helped him to become King. Ned's guidance helped his children. That Sansa did not value his opinions, was not his fault.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

There's no difference between the North and the South -- the writers made that point explicitly in Season 6, and indeed, they made it by having Sansa suggest there was a difference and Davos argue otherwise and be validated.  So whether or not the people criticizing him are Southern seems to me irrelevant.

There is a difference - the North does not see Ned as a fool - that is a view espoused by the Lannisters and LF. If Sansa thinks that way and that Ned is unfit to be a ruler because he was a fool, then she should go south.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Sansa has her own blind spots, but, and this bears repeating, she is eleven years old.  Ned is her father; he has, and expects to exercise, virtually total control over her life, and he has far more power and information about the situation than she has.  He brought her to court and betrothed her to Joffrey, letting her believe by implication that everything was alright for months, and sprung the contrary on her at the last second.  He never, as far as we know, spoke to her about the Kingsroad incident, despite seeing that she buckled under pressure.  He made no attempt to educate her on the dynamics of the court despite her notional destiny as the future queen.

 

Notice how you absolve Sansa of any of her mistakes and put it entirely on Ned. Just like Sansa keeps doing - both in the books and the show. Ned failing to stand up for Jon against Catelyn played a role in his going to wall at the young age of 14. Ned took Arya to Winterfell where she felt miserable and alone - she has been beaten, starved, abused and is now a traumatized child soldier - it's even worse in her case, considering that she was not the person who told Ned's plans to Cersei.  Bran is forever crippled because Ned invited the Lannisters to his home. Robb had to go to war to save his father. None of them ever attempt to hold Ned responsible for their misfortunes.

As for Ned explaining things to Sansa:

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“Sansa, I’m not sending you away for fighting, though the gods know I’m sick of you two squabbling. I want you back in Winterfell for your own safety. Three of my men were cut down like dogs not a league from where we sit, and what does Robert do? He goes hunting.”

“Sweet one,” her father said gently, “listen to me. When you’re old enough, I will make you a match with a high lord who’s worthy of you, someone brave and gentle and strong. This match with Joffrey was a terrible mistake. That boy is no Prince Aemon, you must believe me.”

He was as clear as he could be. As consoling as he could be. And she still went and tattled to Cersei - the lady who ordered her pet wolf killed! What more could Ned do?

Ned talked to Arya about the Kingsroad incident because she lost a friend, was nearly killed and was acting out, whereas Sansa carried on as usual. And in the world of Westeros, when have fathers ever played a role in the upbringing of their daughters. It's funny to see Ned getting blamed for being a bad parent when we have the likes of Stannis, Tywin, Balon, Jaime/Cersei, Aerys, Roose etc. in Westeros.

Westeros is not the modern world. Ned did the best he could in the world of Westeros in the circumstances he found himself. The real mystery is how a girl who was brought up in the harsh North where her aunt was kidnapped and raped to death by prince Rhaegar Targaryen though that fairy tales are true. Or how after seeing Joffrey maul a child by sticking a sword into his face, she thinks of him as her sweet prince. Or how after Cersei orders the death of her pet, she thinks that Cersei knows best about what should be done - all this in a world where 7 yr old Bran is left in charge of WF and 9 yr old Arya sees right through Lannister nonsense.

Age is no excuse. Let's not blame Sansa's stupidity on her parents please. She has always been selfish and always lacked family loyalty. And we are seeing some of that in the show. She continues to blame Ned for not protecting her, thinks that Ned, Robb and Jon are fools and undermines her brother in front of the Northern houses. She has never put family first. Even her actions last season, was all about herself - getting revenge on Ramsay and getting Winterfell for herself. She was blindsided by the North choosing Jon over her.

Edited July 19, 2017 by anamika

[SeanC]

Just now, doram said:

So... Sansa wasn't really in a confusing situation, was she? 

Yes, she very much was, since her father had just sprung on her out of nowhere and with no warning that her entire life as she'd been led to expect it would be led for the last year or so would be upended.  And with virtually no explanation.

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, doram said:

I was specifically referring to the point being made that since the show aged Sansa to 13, they cut off the plotline of her tattling Ned's plans to Cersei. 

That's not how you phrased it, the main reason for aging her up and all the kids was because of the different laws for the protection of children in the different counties which included work,education and sex laws for minors, not to scuttle her running to Cersei. 

5 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Whoa am I the only one who remembers season 1? Ned wanted to break off  Sansa and Joffrey's engagement and he wanted to send her and Arya back to Winterfell. Then Sansa made a scene saying she loved Joffrey and they were going to have cute blonde babies or something like that. 

No, but when Arya asked him how could he let Sansa marry someone like Joffery; Ned had no answer, young Arya gave dad a head slap.

[Oscirus]

Let's be real, Sansa was raised with the idea that her whole job in life was to marry well, by marrying the future king she was doing just that.  Little did she know that doing so would plunge her into an entirely different world then she was accustomed to. She tried to hold on to the dream for as long as she could but ultimately her father's death forever changed that.  Could  she have done things differently? Sure if she wasn't so naive but she was and that's how it all played out.

[SeanC]

8 minutes ago, anamika said:

No, he did not fail. She is alive, because he sacrificed something that he valued highly - his honor - and confessed to treason. And then got executed for it. 

Varys threatening Sansa's life was almost certainly not genuine, incidentally.  They were valuable hostages; they weren't going to start killing them just to get Ned to agree to a show trial.  But regardless, she still ended up imprisoned in King's Landing for years as a result of Ned taking her there.

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And how is not preparing her for this world his fault? That was her fault for being close-minded and picking up the worst traits from Septa Mordane. 

Er, who do you think hired Septa Mordane to teach Sansa?  Ned and Catelyn.  So to the extent that Mordane was a bad influence (and, in the books, she certainly was) that's on them, as she was doing what they told her to.

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Ned allowing Arya to train with Syrio gave her the chance to escape KL. Ned teaching Jon helped him to become King.

And?  Sansa received no corresponding training.

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Arya suffered from Ned taking her to KL. We don't see her blaming Ned for not protecting her do we?

Hasn't come up.

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Notice how you absolve Sansa of any of her mistakes and put it entirely on Ned.

Er, no, I didn't.  Please read the first sentence you quoted again.

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He was as clear as he could be. 

A day late and a dollar short.  By that point, Sansa had been left for months to fall under the Lannisters' spell, which Ned could see was happening, since Sansa didn't hide it.

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Ned talked to Arya about the Kingsroad incident because she lost a friend, was nearly killed and was acting out, whereas Sansa carried on as usual.

"Carrying on as usual" is the problem there, in fact.  Sansa showed clearly she didn't understand the stakes and was vulnerable to pressure, and Ned did nothing about it.

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And in the world of Westeros, when have fathers ever played a role in the upbringing of their daughters. It's funny to see Ned getting blamed for being a bad parent when we have the likes of Stannis, Tywin, Balon, Jaime/Cersei, Aerys, Roose etc. in Westeros.

Ned is one of the better parents in the series overall, because he was a loving father.  That doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, and the plot of AGOT required him to make a lot of them.

Edited July 19, 2017 by SeanC

[Katsullivan]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

Yes, the constant referral to 21st century sensibilities (parenting styles, 11/13-year old girls being sheltered and coddled, etc) in this world is jarring. Why do these rules always seem to apply to Sansa and no one else? We're not told that Robb was just a 15-year-old boy when he goofed his War. Or that Jon is just a 17-year-old boy when he got stabbed by his Sworn Brothers.

Dany is constantly called mad and entitled, and never is the fact that she was a 13-year-old child who had lived a horrendous life used to justify or excuse her behaviour.

Why is Sansa always the exception to that?

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

6 minutes ago, doram said:

Yes, the constant referral to 21st century sensibilities (parenting styles, 11/13-year old girls being sheltered and coddled, etc) in this world is jarring. Why do these rules always seem to apply to Sansa and no one else? We're not told that Robb was just a 15-year-old boy when he goofed his War. Or that Jon is just a 17-year-old boy when he got stabbed by his Sworn Brothers.

Dany is constantly called mad and entitled, and never is the fact that she was a 13-year-old child who had lived a horrendous life used to justify or excuse her behaviour.

Why is Sansa always the exception to that?

Probably because last year was the first time she was in a legit leadership position.  I'm pretty sure she gets plenty of shit for that Vale stunt she pulled.

[SeanC]

6 minutes ago, doram said:

@SeanCSo basically Ned is damned if he did or damned if he didn't? If he did tell her he was breaking things off with Joffrey - he was springing thing up on her. If he didn't tell her, he was encouraging her delusions.

Er, no, not at all.  As I said, the problem was that he did nothing for several months, and then gave her a sudden, enormous jolt at the last minute with minimal explanation.  What he needed to do was provide guidance immediately after the Kingsroad, and going forward.

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Somehow Sansa manages to not bear any personal accountability for her own actions.

Never said that, despite your repeated attempts to argue otherwise.

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Yes, the constant referral to 21st century sensibilities (parenting styles, 11/13-year old girls being sheltered and coddled, etc) in this world is jarring. Why do these rules always seem to apply to Sansa and no one else? We're not told that Robb was just a 15-year-old boy when he goofed his War. Or that Jon is just a 17-year-old boy when he got stabbed by his Sworn Brothers.

Dany is constantly called mad and entitled, and never is the fact that she was a 13-year-old child who had lived a horrendous life used to justify or excuse her behaviour.

Why is Sansa always the exception to that?

Please indicate where I've ever called Dany mad or entitled, or ignored Jon and Robb's ages.

They're all young, and all their arcs very much reflect that to varying degrees (in the show, less so, with the older boys, since they got cast with twentysomethings).

It's not jarring to refer to them as having been sheltered, because they were.  I don't know how you can read the book and think otherwise.  That's one of the thematic points being made, in fact, about girls' gender roles (somewhat anachronistically, in truth; medieval noblewomen got more of a political education, generally, than Sansa and Arya are shown to have had).

Edited July 19, 2017 by SeanC

[Nanrad]

39 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

All excellent points.  I can't really blame Ned for Sansa's lack of education regarding court.  That should have been her mother's role, and by extension, Septa Mordane's.  I think Ned favored Arya in the daughter department, because (a) she was a tomboy and (b) she is pretty much Lyanna V.2.0, and Ned loved his sister dearly.  Having said that, I think neither Stark parent ever anticipated Ned's role as Hand, and were grossly unprepared for that.  Had Bran not been pushed out the window, I don't know how the move to KL would have gone.  There must always be a Stark in Winterfell, so perhaps Robband the boys would have stayed behind.  Catelyn should have prepared her daughters better, once she learned they'd accompany their father to KL.  But by then, she'd become a true northerner, and had lost any court acumen she'd once had, if any.  Sansa was rather full of herself in KL, before things went badly, as only young girls can be, and refused to listen to her Septa's advice.  Ned certainly didn't help by his stony northern silence.  She was a young and naive child, set adrift in a nest of vipers.

Now that I'm thinking about it, how are either Ned or Catelyn at 'fault' for not preparing their kids for KL? The only reason Ned is even offered to be Hand of the King is because the previous one was killed and Robert wanted him to fill the position. Ned and Catelyn hadn't ben there for 11 (???) years and seems as if they had no intentions upon returning until Ned was basically ordered to do it. The kind of political savvy and manipulation they'd encountered was due to Lannister and LF influences. If they'd gone almost anywhere else, things would've been different. No one doesn't live or regularly interact with KL KNOWS how to navigate that environment. Ned and Catelyn taught their kids what they needed to know Not what they'd never had anticipated in a million years. Besides, even if Catelyn did, it wouldn't had been sufficient for KL. Furthermore, any teachings would've only worked for the North or Riverlands or something. It's moot.

32 minutes ago, Katsullivan said:

This was obviously not the intention but I can't help laughing at the irony that Sansa's privilege disadvantaged her. 

Because the meta-analysis of that (real life parallels, etc) might explain why some people has such a visceral dislike towards the character.

I literally cackled. 

[GrailKing]

43 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Somehow Sansa manages to not bear any personal accountability for her own actions.

@ Doram: If you mean that she didn't think about what her action caused; probably not, most 11 year olds wouldn't at least not until they are older.

But she more then suffered for disobeying Ned, but 95% is on the grownups, Cat,Ned,Robert,Cersei etc.

Sansa's action removed their very small chance ( really small ) of getting out of KL, her beatings, Jeynes being given to LF, her being given to Ramsey are on Cersei, Joffry and Baleish along with the Boltons.

Loss of her wolf:   on Cersei,Joffry,Robert, Ned , and yes Arya

Micah : on Cersei, the Hound was doing his job, but he could have told her he couldn't find the kid.

Edited July 19, 2017 by GrailKing
wrong person quoted

[stillshimpy]

25 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

Now that I'm thinking about it, how are either Ned or Catelyn at 'fault' for not preparing their kids for KL? The only reason Ned is even offered to be Hand of the King is because the previous one was killed and Robert wanted him to fill the position.

It's not that they didn't prepare them specifically for King's Landing, it's that -- as Jon said in this episode or perhaps it was Sansa -- but the end result was the same so screw it:  He taught his girls one thing and the boys another.   He told his boys a version of the truth of what the world contains -- not all lords are good, or ladies pure and false flattery exists so therefore so do liars -- and he told his daughter that he'd choose strong, brave, good men for them to marry.  

That's fine if you can guarantee they never leave that bubble, but if you know you've taught your children that, don't take them to King's Landing.  They won't be prepared, you barely were and you apparently already knew the world was capable of some serious shit, fought-in-a-war, Ned.  Lost-my-betrothed-to-being-burned-alive-by-the-King (and that's the NICE version Cat was told and Ned protected her from in full) , Cat.   

Now, I've only got one son and it's not like I misplaced a ton of other children or something, so he's my only one, so I can't say this for certain that I'd treat both boys and girls with at least something resembling an equal heads up "be prepared"  ...but I sure as shit at least taught the kid to look both ways on streets and also?  Be careful with people you don't know, be careful with people until you know them really well and even then?  Don't be blind."   

He didn't need to teach them about King's Landing for quite a while, but he should have held at least a family meeting, I'm thinking when he knew they were bugging out to there.   Barring that, no one can be so sheltered that they truly don't understand that people aren't always good or sincere.   Hell, you've met the Northern Lords,  it was never a good plan because sooner or later, they'd meet someone not their parents, in circumstances they couldn't control? 

Edited July 19, 2017 by stillshimpy

[screamin]

1 hour ago, doram said:

Maybe, Jon just assumed that Sansa having been in a similar position of late, would actually be the one advocating that they not throw out a young girl from her home, strip her of every form of political protection and leave her to the literal wolves?

And that would be a terribly wicked thing to do if she had actually done it. Stripping them of their title does not mean casting them to the (literal) wolves. They could simply have been raised by trustworthy allies, as Ned raised Theon after they uncrowned his dad.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, screamin said:

And that would be a terribly wicked thing to do if she had actually done it. Stripping them of their title does not mean casting them to the (literal) wolves. They could simply have been raised by trustworthy allies, as Ned raised Theon after they uncrowned his dad.

Wasn't Theon basically a hostage to ensure that his father behaved?

[Raachel2008]

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

And that would be a terribly wicked thing to do if she had actually done it. Stripping them of their title does not mean casting them to the (literal) wolves. They could simply have been raised by trustworthy allies, as Ned raised Theon after they uncrowned his dad.

And look what Theon did to the Starks.

[GrailKing]

the second Ned betrothed  Sansa and said he take the girls they should had gotten a crash course about southern politics and customs ,and it should have been Cat to do it.

[anamika]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Varys threatening Sansa's life was almost certainly not genuine, incidentally.  They were valuable hostages; they weren't going to start killing them just to get Ned to agree to a show trial.  But regardless, she still ended up imprisoned in King's Landing for years as a result of Ned taking her there.

How do we know this? Almost certain? They could have tortured Sansa till Ned confessed. They could have killed her if he did not - they had him as prisoner - he was their hostage.

Again, is Sansa really blaming Ned for taking her to KL? Does Sansa expect Ned to really know what was he going to face there? If she is blaming him for her being a prisoner, then she is a selfish fool. Can't do anything about that.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Er, who do you think hired Septa Mordane to teach Sansa?  Ned and Catelyn.  So to the extent that Mordane was a bad influence (and, in the books, she certainly was) that's on them, as she was doing what they told her to.

Er, where does it say that the very Northern Ned who believes in the Old Gods hired the Septa to teach the girls? That was probably Catelyn's decision and I think Ned gave her free reign when it came to decisions regarding the girls.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

And?  Sansa received no corresponding training.

Because she did not ask?

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Hasn't come up.

Because she does not.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Er, no, I didn't.  Please read the first sentence you quoted again.

Er, no, your entire post was about how Ned was to blame for Sansa's actions.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

A day late and a dollar short.  By that point, Sansa had been left for months to fall under the Lannisters' spell, which Ned could see was happening, since Sansa didn't hide it.

It's never too late for good advice. Sansa's selfishness and her stubborn refusal to see what was in front of her, was her fault. Not Ned's.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

"Carrying on as usual" is the problem there, in fact.  Sansa showed clearly she didn't understand the stakes and was vulnerable to pressure, and Ned did nothing about it.

Because he thought she was the good, dutiful daughter and would listen to him. As she always used to do before.

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

Ned is one of the better parents in the series overall, because he was a loving father.  That doesn't mean he didn't make mistakes, and the plot of AGOT required him to make a lot of them.

Ned was the best parent one could get in the world of Westeros. Sansa should have had a Tywin, Robert or Stannis as a parent. Maybe then she would have appreciated Ned more.

4 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

It's not that they didn't prepare them specifically for King's Landing, it's that -- as Jon said in this episode or perhaps it was Sansa -- but the end result was the same so screw it:  He taught his girls one thing and the boys another.   He told his boys a version of the truth of what the world contains -- not all lords are good, or ladies pure and false flattery exists so therefore so do liars -- and he told his daughter that he'd choose strong, brave, good men for them to marry.  

That's fine if you can guarantee they never leave that bubble, but if you know you've taught your children that, don't take them to King's Landing.  They won't be prepared, you barely were and you apparently already knew the world was capable of some serious shit, fought-in-a-war, Ned.  Lost-my-betrothed-to-being-burned-alive-by-the-King (and that's the NICE version Cat was told and Ned protected her from in full) , Cat.   

But this is once again applying modern day sensibilities to the reality of Westeros. Boys and girls were expected to know different things. So Robb, Jon and Bran hung together and learned different skills. Arya managed to learn more because she used to hang out with Ned and the boys. Catelyn was in charge of the girls education. Are we really blaming Ned for not being a 21st century earth modern thinker? 

Ned was already way ahead of his peers in that he encouraged Arya in her differences. But he still took her to KL because Catelyn wanted Arya to learn the ways of ladies and courts. And that's why Ned took the girls to KL - so that they could learn how things work in KL and Sansa could get used to it before her marriage. KL was supposed to be the teaching experience for the girls. Because they were probably expected to marry into southern houses.

And that's how it works in Westeros. Catelyn had to move North and adapt to that life. Girls get married off at 16 and engaged even earlier. Boys went to the wall at 14. It was a harsh job and sometimes you learned on the job.

Blaming Ned for not realizing how dangerous it was in KL before he took them there is disingenuous. Hindsight is 20/20. The minute he realized how bad it was, he made plans to get his daughters out. This was sabotaged by the daughter who is now blaming her father for not protecting her. If Ned was a fool, it was only because he took his daughter's loyalty for granted.

Edited July 19, 2017 by anamika

[Gertrude]

So what I'm getting out of this thread right now is that the show is giving us nothing worth sinking our teeth into, so we're backtracking into old and worn arguments about Sansa. She's a dumb girl. No she's not. Yuh huh! Nu-uh!

Come on show, give us something better next week.

[dr pepper]

So which of the Iron Factions has the magic horn of destruction?

[CloudySky]

On 17/7/2017 at 8:33 AM, VCRTracking said:

Arya's still single-minded in her obsession with revenge. At this point we've come so far with her that we prefer her continuing to cross names off her list instead of being reunited with her family at Winterfell.  I don't think she's going to be the one to kill Cersei so I do wonder what her story in King's Landing will be.

I think she'll kill the Mountain but be too weakened to take on Cersei as well. And when she's on the brink of being killed by Cersei, Jaime will be faces with a difficult choice between his oath to protect Aria and his love for Cersei combined with the difficult nuance of being the Kingslayer who has stabbed his King in the back before because it was best for the realm. He's witness to Cersei destroying everything and everyone and it will be ironic that he got rid of the Targaeryan dynasty by stabbing his King in the back and will help usher in the Targaeryan dynasty by stabbing his Queen in the back again. Or by wrapping his hand(s) around her throat...

[yellowfred]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Blaming Ned for not realizing how dangerous it was in KL before he took them there is disingenuous. Hindsight is 20/20. The minute he realized how bad it was, he made plans to get his daughters out. This was sabotaged by the daughter who is not blaming her father for not protecting her. If Ned was a fool, it was only because he took his daughter's loyalty for granted.

So, setting aside that only book!Sansa went to Cersei behind Ned's back and only show!Sansa has said that Ned was at fault, I think you might be misinterpreting her statement about Ned's protection.  Jon explicitly mentions that Ned didn't want them knowing about the uglier side of things, and Sansa correctly points out that not knowing about ugliness doesn't keep it away.  Arya had a bit more preparation, because she insisted on it, but Sansa was pretty clearly blindsided.  The issue isn't that he took them there or that he couldn't get them out; it's that Sansa didn't even know there was a threat to be looking out for until it was too late.  I think she was saying that she and Jon need to be honest with each other, even if it isn't nice, because knowing the truth is safer, in the long run.

Also, I think a lot of this comes back to how the show has (in my opinion) really dropped the ball on the storyline in the North.  Like, having Sansa go to Winterfell as herself was stupid for a number of reasons, not the least of which is the fact that she was (and still is) a wanted fugitive from King's Landing, so if that didn't worry the Boltons, who were depending on support from the Iron Throne to hold their position, then it almost certainly shouldn't worry Jon*.  Then, on top of that, they made sure that not a single Northern house of any significance was interested in backing Sansa and Jon against Ramsey.  Sansa herself was the one making arguments, last season, that the Northern houses would be loyal to the Starks, but all she ended up hearing from those same houses was how their loyalty was squandered by Ned and Robb making stupid decisions, so it's no wonder she now thinks that's the case.  

* I feel like the more reasonable point they should be thinking about, re: Cersei, is whether they should be negotiating with her or any other southern houses for more troops to fight the White Walkers, since the Northern forces have been decimated a few times over in the past several years.  I mean, unless they somehow already know what Olenna's up to, it seems almost foolish not to at least attempt to get her on their side.  Also, on a personal level, I would find it a more interesting point of conflict for Jon and Sansa than whether these two kids we've never seen before should get these two castles we've never seen at all, or if said unseen castles should be given, instead, to two members of loyal houses that weren't even named.

[Cherpumple]

6 minutes ago, yellowfred said:

I mean, unless they somehow already know what Olenna's up to, it seems almost foolish not to at least attempt to get her on their side.

Ooooh, I would LOVE to see a scene with Sansa and Olenna, after all that's happened since they last met. This is the reunion I didn't know I wanted!

[Meredith Quill]

Mod Note:

Not going to repeat this. Please keep your tone when replying to/addressing a fellow poster CIVIL. Many posts in here are sailing close to the wind. If it continues warnings will be issued.

Your post should be 90% about THIS EPISODE, not what happened in past seasons; quote what you're replying to and take it to the appropriate topic. We don't wish to remove posts but with so many going off the rails that is what will happen.

If you see a post which violates the site rule of Be Civil, report do not respond.

Thank you.

[anamika]

1 hour ago, yellowfred said:

So, setting aside that only book!Sansa went to Cersei behind Ned's back and only show!Sansa has said that Ned was at fault, I think you might be misinterpreting her statement about Ned's protection.  Jon explicitly mentions that Ned didn't want them knowing about the uglier side of things, and Sansa correctly points out that not knowing about ugliness doesn't keep it away.  Arya had a bit more preparation, because she insisted on it, but Sansa was pretty clearly blindsided.  The issue isn't that he took them there or that he couldn't get them out; it's that Sansa didn't even know there was a threat to be looking out for until it was too late.  

 All Jon said was that Ned did not curse in front of the girls. That's all. Sansa dismisses Ned as a fool and then goes on a spiel about Ned not wanting them to see the dirty world and how he could not protect her. My point is that Ned did protect her. With his life. Ned not cursing in front of her has no relation to the ultimate sacrifice he made to keep Sansa safe.

Would Ned allowing Sansa to see some beheadings of NW deserters really change her view on Joffery playing saditistically with Mycah? This idea that Sansa was not able to identify Joffrey and Cersei as bad people or know right from wrong because Ned did not curse in front of her or sheltered her is very baffling to me. Concepts like empathy and a sense of fairness is found even in babies.

Let me put it this way. As children we grow up very sheltered - our parents protect us and make sure that we are not exposed to ugliness. One day, someone kills my pet dog as punishment for something my brother did - am I going to see that person as good because I grew up sheltered? I would think the opposite to be true - that we would be horrified by evil and cruelty after being sheltered from it.

Sansa was faced with the Lannisters doing increasingly evil things while in KL and she blithely keeps ignoring it, while blaming Arya for her problems.   I am sorry, but that's not on Ned. That's on who Sansa is as a person.

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I think she was saying that she and Jon need to be honest with each other, even if it isn't nice, because knowing the truth is safer, in the long run.

Which, again why? Has Jon ever lied to her in any way since they met? He has always told her the truth , presented her with the facts. Hell, he even allowed her to deal with Ramsay. Who has been dishonest to whom since they met? Has Sansa told Jon yet from where she received information about the Blackfish?

For some reason, she scolds Jon for trying to protect her like Ned. Why? All Jon did in the scene before was make decisions to defend the North.  Even Jon's patience seemed to run out - he was clearly annoyed with her pointless nagging this episode.

Edited July 19, 2017 by anamika

[yellowfred]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

Which, again why? Has Jon ever lied to her in any way since they met? He has always told her the truth , presented her with the facts. Hell, he even allowed her to deal with Ramsay. Who has been dishonest to whom since they met? Has Sansa told Jon yet from where she received information about the Blackfish?

To clarify, I was saying that Sansa's point was that she was trying to be honest with him about the things she thinks he isn't giving enough thought to, because she thinks he's better off knowing where they disagree and why.  I took the specific example of Ned not using profanity in front of her to be more allegorical, rather than a specific indictment of the way the his word choice eventually ruined her life.  I also don't think her saying that Jon needs to make better decisions than Ned or Robb diminishes how she feels about either of them or what they did to protect her.

[benteen]

8 hours ago, AshleyN said:

Except that the showrunners completely rewrote Brienne's story for that very reason. I know people like to complain about the Benioff and Weiss a lot, but the one thing people seem to agree that they're better at than Martin is staying focused on the main story. They've done a ton of streamlining and cut out whole storylines that they deemed extraneous. I feel like if Sam at the Citadel wasn't going to turn out to be important in the end they wouldn't have bothered to send him there in the first place.

Reworking Brienne's storyline was one of the best things that D&D did.  Nothing was more frustrating than seeing wandering around in a dead end KNOWING ahead of time that Brienne was chasing a dead end.  While Brienne's storyline has not always been perfect (let's look for that bloody candle for six straight episodes!) it's been far more exciting her books counterpart (the awesome duel with the Hound) and it's allowed her to interact with a lot of the main characters, some in unexpected ways.

[Constantinople]

I'm a little disappointed that Stannis didn't lock the place up before leaving Dragonstone

I'm also wondering why there's suddenly a big push to acquire Dragonglass.  It's been known since Season 3 that dragonglass kills White Walkers and in Season 5 Stannis told Sam that Dragonglass can be found at Dragonstone.

I'm also wondering why Jon hasn't told anyone that Valyrian steel also kills Dragonglass.  If the Mormont family has a Valyrian steel sword, it's possible that other Northern houses do too.  Plus, doensn't Brienne still have Oathkeeper

[benteen]

On the subject of Ned, he was a great Lord of the North.  He dealt with situations that arose as Warden of the North (The Greyjoy Rebellion, Jorah selling slaves, etc.).  But his way of business running the North was not a good fit down South and he did shelter his children to some degree (none of them were fostered for instance).  Robb, well, he was a great wartime leader but was young in the books and made bad decisions trying to adhere to honor (his marriage to Jeyne) and the law (executing Karstark for his murder of the Lannister children).  On the show, Robb is a little older and an even bigger idiot when it comes to breaking his marriage vows to the Freys.  That was a bad decision by D&D.  As in the book, executing Karstark was the just and morally correct decision but was a tactical disaster.  Holding Karstark hostage to secure his House's continuing loyalty would have been the smarter step.

In the books, Jon learns that you can't do everything honorably and I don't know if he's picked up that mentality on the show, although he is doing stuff like having the women trained and utilized for the defense of the North, which is very smart.  In both the books and the show, he is absolutely terrible at explaining his reasons behind his decisions.  Book Jon also remembers some of Ned's best lessons but clearly didn't understand them (like how he pushed away those closest to him).

Edited July 19, 2017 by benteen

[FnkyChkn34]

11 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

 

I'm also wondering why Jon hasn't told anyone that Valyrian steel also kills Dragonglass.  If the Mormont family has a Valyrian steel sword, it's possible that other Northern houses do too.  Plus, doensn't Brienne still have Oathkeeper

And what happened to Ned's great sword? It was melted down into 2 swords, I remember that, but who has them? Jaime? 

[nodorothyparker]

Brienne still has Oathkeeper.  The other half that Joffrey dubbed Widow's Wail is presumably still in the custody of the Lannisters.

[Constantinople]

2 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And what happened to Ned's great sword? It was melted down into 2 swords, I remember that, but who has them? Jaime? 

Tywin gave one to Joffrey and one to Jaime.

The show never explicitly stated who inherited Joffrey's sword but most assumed Tommen did.  If so, it's probably in the royal armory right now.

Jaime gave his sword to Brienne (Oathkeeper).  She tried to return it to him at Riverrun last leason, but Jaime told her to keep it.

So as Jon is giving his speech in this episode about the importance of researching Dragonglass, there's at least one other person in the hall with means to kill Walkers because she has a Valyrian steel sword.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

And what happened to Ned's great sword? It was melted down into 2 swords, I remember that, but who has them? Jaime? 

 Brienne has one, Oathkeeper.   The second one, Widow's Wail, did just pop up  in this episode, as Jaime was wearing it. But no explanation was given as to how he acquired it.  Last we saw of it  before this episode, it was in Dead Joffrey's hands in the sept. Presumably, it was handed down to Tommen. 

 I still can't get over how underwhelming that last five minute silence sequence was.  The show has done well with silence sequences before. Catelyn on horseback, watching the Whispering Wood battle, waiting in anticipation, and then breaking into tears of relief and joy when Robb emerges victorious. That was wonderful. Nedd watching Arya spar, at first with great amusement and then with a troubled look.  That was a great moment. Jaime's stare down of Cersei at the end of season six. That was a great moment.

But five minutes of Daenerys walking around Dragonstone, taking down the tapestry, and running her fingers along the table. It played more like the inaugural episode of HGTV's House Castles. 

Next up after the commercial break: Dany tours the Red Keep. Although it's currently owner occupied.

Edited July 19, 2017 by Francie