S03.E01: Bottoms Up

[Scarlett45]

Jazz talks to her parents about having bottom surgery before she completes high school, but there may be obsticales along the way. 

[greekmom]

Saw last night's episode. While I enjoy watching Jazz more than other TLC shows I am wondering why she is still doing this?

The girl has been obviously depressed (& maybe not appreciating all the fame and attention??).  I think she is being pushed into another season by either TLC or Mom.

I would have rather seen a 2 hour special update (let's catch up with Jazz) here and there instead of another season with someone who obviously is just going through the motions.

I will miss the twins.  Ari seems MIA too.

Still love Dad and Grandpa.  Mom is still over the top and Grandma too.

[Twopper]

I am wondering why the doctor that gave Jazz the hormone blockers didn't explain to her parents that it might not be the best idea for Jazz since there was always the possibility of "bottom surgery" in later years; it may still have been the best idea, although I think they should have been told of that particular disadvantage.   And I was a bit surprised that the surgeon didn't seem to know about the particular drug Jazz was receiving by implant, although I guess the drugs and delivery systems may change over time. 

I agree that to the extent TLC continues to follow Jazz that  a few 2 hour specials to catch up would be better (I think that's how they handled the conjoined twins Brittany and Abby).  I wish her dad would put his foot down about filming any more seasons.  I realize Jazz wants to be a spokesman for transgenders, but I think her mom pushed her into it initially (or at least didn't object), and I don't think it benefits Jazz who seems to have depression issues (probably not all of the depression is related to transgender).  I was initially interested because I have a FTM transgender in the family so I hoped this program might give me a bit more understanding, but I found myself really concerned about Jazz in a way that surprised me, and I think maybe she needs to get out of the limelight.        

[IOU Payne]

If I took a shot every time anyone said "Bottom surgery", I'd be on Intervention.  

I enjoyed the show in the first season because the Jenningses were a nice, functional family.  I liked the twins, the parents, the grandparents, Ari and Jazz. It was a breath of fresh air to see a family that loved one another, and had a lifestyle that I could relate to.  No pageant madness, fundie side-hugging, Tunisian love-rats or extreme anything.  Last season OTOH was, frankly, depressing to watch.  My heart broke for Jazz, going through a depression.  After that, Season 3 shouldn't have even happened.  I feel it's exploitative at this stage.  A one-off special would have been enough for me.

[karenkarenbobaren]

Grandma and that wonky eye!!!

That being said, her family is wonderful and she's lucky to have grandparents who really seem to get it.

Anyone catch that close up of Jazz and her brother looking at books in the book store and it was zoomed in on her crotch!!!  I was like WAH!  Shouldn't be be sensitive about that kind of thing especially on an episode about bottom surgery?

I have seen the female plastic surgeon on another show, but I can't recall which.  She's also trans.  I also remember a doctor from Dr. 90210 who was fantastic.  Gary something?  I hope she gets what she wants.  Skin expanders maybe?  I'm sure there's a solution for her.  Almost sounds like what she's got to work with is maybe a larger camel toe and maybe she CAN wear leggings?  Maybe not.  Obviously she'd know best :)

[Katydid]

I get that many parents are sad to see their kids go off to college, but Mom was just SO over the top with it.  I guess I thought that with one child already in college, it shouldn't have been quite so traumatic for her.  Plus, she's obviously not an empty nester yet because Jazz has a few more years of high school.  It's lovely that they are such a close family, but that was a bit much IMO.  I think more than anything, Mom has some depression over getting older herself, and more kids in college represent her getting older. 

I was not at all impressed with the surgeon they saw.  I thought the comment he made to Jazz's father after he examined her was very nice, but seemed out of place considering that the rest of the time he was such a sourpuss.  I understand being frank and realistic about her chances of getting the outcome she's hoping for, but he was just so abrupt with the family from the time they sat down in his office. 

[KBrownie]

26 minutes ago, Katydid said:

I understand being frank and realistic about her chances of getting the outcome she's hoping for, but he was just so abrupt with the family from the time they sat down in his office. 

I think Jazz needed abrupt though.  I hate how she, and she's done it in the past too, just brushes aside her father's legitimate concerns about these surgeries and acts as if the entire process is just like snapping one's fingers.  I thought the first doctor they saw was a little irresponsible in presenting it that way to her.   And what child is done growing at 15?  I was surprised when he was saying that she's done growing.  She's always all "I have the final decision" and no, Jazz, you really don't.  Not until you're eighteen.  No surgery is happening on a minor without parent consent (although I guess she'll always be covered there because mom does what Jazz wants) and no one ever talks about the financials behind all of this.  Is Dad's insurance going to cover the surgery?  

I liked that the doctor was abrupt.  She wants to be adult enough to make these decisions, then she needs to learn how to deal with the adult world where things are often blunt and rough.  It really showed that Jazz didn't seem to really understand what the surgery entailed.  She repeatedly was looking to her parents to answer questions for her which sort of shows that waiting a year or two isn't such a bad idea.  Jazz doesn't seem to really understand anything other than the basic technicalities of sex.  She didn't seem to get what was being asked when she was asked about orgasms.  She's never really seemed to be all that interested in sex yet, which is to be expected at her still very young age. She thinks she knows all she needs to know, but she really doesn't  Maturing a little bit and really understanding sex and all the different options out there before getting the surgery done is not such a bad idea.  This is when having parents with a firmer hand would be beneficial for her.  Dad needs to put his foot down here and not just weakly object.  She wouldn't be the first teen who ever was told that they had to wait until they were 18 to do whatever it is that they wanted to do.  Yes, Jazz is more aware and knowledgeable about so much, but there's still more she needs to learn.  Maybe this consultation will get her to take a step back.  But they'll probably just find a doctor who tells them what they want to hear and do the surgery anyway.

[okerry]

This thought occurred to me as soon as I heard the docs and the parents had agreed to put their barely teen child on puberty-blocking drugs. But you get shut down on almost any board if you dare to bring it up:

For a M-T-F transition, the penis is basically inverted and its tissue is used to create a vagina.

If you want to create an adult-sized vagina, you need an adult-sized penis to work with. 

So if you stop puberty - which is when child-sized sex organs mature into adult-sized ones - there is no adult-sized penis to work with and therefore no way to construct an adult-sized vagina.

This is what the older male doctor was trying to explain to them on last night's show.

And it's not just the size that's crucial. Adult sex-organ tissue has been exposed to the body's natural hormones, which cause it to mature and become sexually sensitive and reactive - as opposed to the skin of one's elbow, for example. Child sex-organ tissue has not had this exposure , just as Jazz's has not because Jazz's puberty has been blocked. That's why "tissue expanders" - and have you seen them? - will do little, if anything, to help.

Back when this show first aired, I could not believe the disconnect the family and fans seemed to have regarding, "Let's stop male puberty so Jazz doesn't have to go through that!" Okay - but that's where the process will end. You cannot just switch to female puberty because you want to. The transition process doesn't work like that.

The doctors can reconstruct a mature male to look like and function like a mature female, but cannot reconstruct a child to look like a mature female - much less function like one. No male puberty = no female puberty, either.

It's always been jaw-dropping to me that nobody in the family seems to have thought of this. Jazz is both sterile and impotent. You cannot simply switch puberty on and off when it suits you. The body just doesn't work that way.

[jacksgirl]

Love the thought provoking people on this forum. Agree with so many of your comments. There seems like a disconnect with Jazz. She is so confident in the transgender part of her life (the show, interviews, etc.), but she lacks confidence with peers and it's sad she pulled away from her girl group, although 15 year old girls can be catty. Agree that maybe catch up special night be a good option. Also, did not like the surgeon. Yes, he was honest about her "bottom" surgery, but weird about her breasts, yes, buddy no euphemism or hand gestures needed,  they are breasts. Her friend on the swing was a cute girl.  Wishing her well with her surgery. 

[TomGirl]

24 minutes ago, okerry said:

Adult sex-organ tissue has been exposed to the body's natural hormones, which cause it to mature and become sexually sensitive and reactive - as opposed to the skin of one's elbow, for example. Child sex-organ tissue has not had this exposure , just as Jazz's has not because Jazz's puberty has been blocked. That's why "tissue expanders" - and have you seen them? - will do little, if anything, to help.

 

Are you sure about this?  Since Jazz's estrogen levels are at the level of a normal adult, why wouldn't that be sufficient?  Also, children pre-puberty can definitely experience sexual arousal.  You seem quite knowledgeable, though, so I wondered if maybe you are a medical professional?

[Twopper]

Quote

And it's not just the size that's crucial. Adult sex-organ tissue has been exposed to the body's natural hormones, which cause it to mature and become sexually sensitive and reactive - as opposed to the skin of one's elbow, for example. Child sex-organ tissue has not had this exposure , just as Jazz's has not because Jazz's puberty has been blocked. That's why "tissue expanders" - and have you seen them? - will do little, if anything, to help.

From what I saw the only option the surgeon seemed to suggest was using tissue from the colon.  I understand that another option ( maybe they don't do this anymore) is/was to use skin grafts from the thighs which is where I would think the skin expanders would be used.   I really think she should wait to 18. 

I know about the empty nest emotions, but I think Jeanette has more issues with Jazz than she is can admit to herself and the stress of that is included in her emotional upset at leaving the twins.  And maybe leaving twins is twice as hard.  I am glad Greg seemed very concerned when she said she slept to deal with her sadness; it sounds like maybe she could use a bit of therapy herself. 

I have no clue how they intend to pay for this surgery which is quite expensive; I am afraid that they need the TLC money for it and that's why they are doing this new season.

Yeah, I saw where they zeroed in on the crotch area at the bookstore and, to a lesser degree, as they were leaving the dorm room; it made me rather uncomfortable for her.

I liked the friend from Atlanta. I hope Jazz can make more friends.

I was a bit uncomfy about her remarks about being pansexual;  I just think she often says what she thinks the trans community wants her to say.  She is just so young.  And if she is one of the handful of MTF transgenders that later regret it, she will probably have even more problems than those people who aren't activists and advocates.  

[ClareWalks]

I didn't notice that the camera focused particularly on her crotch, but I did notice she was wearing the tightest shorts of all time. Holy smokies. I would have been way too self-conscious to wear shorts like that as a teenager.

The surgeon was quite a character. I would love to have a doctor who was kind of jokey and colloquial like that, but I can see how it might rub some folks the wrong way, especially when he's dealing with a minor. I was like "really? You have to call her genitals itty-bitty?" Although I thought based on what we saw, Jeanette was a little needlessly defensive about the T-blocker. The surgeon was just stating a fact, that it is something to consider when choosing whether to halt puberty. It might not be the right choice for everyone (particularly if a kid is at higher risk of becoming depressed/suicidal going through puberty), but it is something to think about, for sure.

That Skylar chick is gorgeous! It's nice to see that Jazz has some friends. It had to be rough to lose so many friends lately.

[okerry]

2 hours ago, TomGirl said:

Are you sure about this?  Since Jazz's estrogen levels are at the level of a normal adult, why wouldn't that be sufficient?  Also, children pre-puberty can definitely experience sexual arousal.  You seem quite knowledgeable, though, so I wondered if maybe you are a medical professional?

Not a medical professional at all, but have been quite fascinated by this and read up on it. Most of it is just common sense combined with basic biology. 

You cannot turn a male child directly into a female adult, which is what they want to do. The body has to go through sexual maturity first and that's what they're preventing with that implant. Jazz's breasts grew because that happens when you give huge doses of estrogen to a male body. That's all it is. And I always thought that was a major risk for cancer, but they haven't said anything about that.

I get that transgender people "feel" like they're the other sex. Okay. But medical professionals, who are supposed to provide this transformation to Jazz and other transgender people, have to deal with the realities - and limitations - of the physical body, no matter how much the transgender person doesn't want to. That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me and I would beg them to reconsider and think this through, but that's exactly when you get kicked off the message board, lol.

It also horrifies me that homosexual men used to be "treated" with large does of female hormones. It was terribly damaging. It shut down their sexual functioning and made them depressed and even suicidal. It was considered terribly unethical and can't be done today - except to someone like Jazz. They're doing the exact same thing to Jazz that was done to gay men as a "cure."

You can Google "Alan Turing" and the film made about him with Benedict Cumberbatch - darn, can't remember the title right now - to see exactly what I'm talking about.

Edited June 28, 2017 by okerry

[Bellalisa]

I think it was news to them that by blocking puberty you had this disadvantage. Seems no one mentioned this at all. I don't think she is orgasmic because the genitalia is of a little boy and probably does not have the urge. This is all very sad that someone is born with this disconnect between how they feel and their body. There is not any good solution. I tried to explain to my mother, who doesn't get it, that this little boy was born with TWO brothers close in age- you would think this boy would model after them and play with their toys- but instead modeled after the much older sister.  The only explanation for that is the brain of the toddler was wired as a girl. This just happened, there was no outside influence. If there were 3 girls in the family, people might argue that the youngest was surrounded by girls and wanted to be like them. 

[RemoteControlFreak]

8 hours ago, Twopper said:

I am wondering why the doctor that gave Jazz the hormone blockers didn't explain to her parents that it might not be the best idea for Jazz since there was always the possibility of "bottom surgery" in later years; it may still have been the best idea, although I think they should have been told of that particular disadvantage.   And I was a bit surprised that the surgeon didn't seem to know about the particular drug Jazz was receiving by implant, although I guess the drugs and delivery systems may change over time. 

It is unfathomable that Jazz and her parents were not aware of the effect of hormone blockers on male genitalia size and therefore on the ability to do a traditional vagina creation out of a penis. I'm sure they knew.  The scene with the doctor was created for the benefit of the TV audience.  Also, the surgeon is not an endocrinologist, so why would he be an expert on hormone blockers?

Edited June 28, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[RemoteControlFreak]

2 hours ago, okerry said:

It also horrifies me that homosexual men used to be "treated" with large does of female hormones. It was terribly damaging. It shut down their sexual functioning and made them depressed and even suicidal. It was considered terribly unethical and can't be done today - except to someone like Jazz. They're doing the exact same thing to Jazz that was done to gay men as a "cure."

You can Google "Alan Turing" and the film made about him with Benedict Cumberbatch - darn, can't remember the title right now - to see exactly what I'm talking about.

 The essential difference of course  is that Jazz and her parents knowingly chose to block male hormones. Jazz consider herself female and the drugs make it possible for her body to be in synch with her brain. Don't be fooled into thinking that Jazz and her parents were not aware of the side effects, including the eventual difficulty in doing a standard male to female trans vaginoplasty.  

Bigger issue:  WTF are these parents doing still letting their admittedly depressed child star in a reality television show? I get that they think they are doing a huge public service by showing that families with a transgender child are just like the rest of us and putting a human face on gender dysphoria. But, still, this cannot really be the best thing for a kid in a fragile mental state.

Edited June 28, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[SunnyBeBe]

I don't think that Jazz is impotent.  Do you recall when she had her surgery last season?  At some point when she was groggy, she slipped up and said that she had a boner.  

I don't know that doctor, but, to me, I would keep searching.  Something was not right with him.  Very bizarre.  He was odd, I wouldn't put much into what he said, until it was confirmed by a couple more surgeons.  I missed a little bit.  Are they going to check out with surgeons in CA?  I wish they'd check with Dr Marcie Bowers.  I would trust her opinion, plus, she's been there since, she's transgender too.   Although, as a parent, I don't think that I would sign for this surgery.  I'd let her wait until she reaches age 18.  Not to be mean, but, despite all the arguments, I just can't see signing for it on a child under age 18.  

Jazz has grown even more beautiful, imo.  She really is a very nice young lady, imo.  I hope good things are in her future. 

Edited June 28, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[RemoteControlFreak]

5 hours ago, okerry said:

The doctors can reconstruct a mature male to look like and function like a mature female, but cannot reconstruct a child to look like a mature female - much less function like one. No male puberty = no female puberty, either.

It's always been jaw-dropping to me that nobody in the family seems to have thought of this. Jazz is both sterile and impotent. You cannot simply switch puberty on and off when it suits you. The body just doesn't work that way.

This is not true. Jazz did not go through male puberty because she has been taking testosterone blockers. But she is also taking estrogen which is what caused her breast growth and all other things that estrogen causes during female puberty, other than those not possible for her because she doesn't have female reproductive organs.  

[ClareWalks]

26 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I don't think that Jazz is impotent.  Do you recall when she had her surgery last season?  At some point when she was groggy, she slipped up and said that she had a boner.

They specified "orgasmic," meaning that she could have an orgasm, not an erection. She indicated that she hadn't tried. Definitely an awkward conversation to have with your parents in the room, but of course the doctor would need to know that in order to perform the surgery with the ideal outcome.

ETA that I didn't want you to think I was disagreeing with you, I was agreeing and adding to it :)

Edited June 28, 2017 by ClareWalks

[orangeiguana]

Lemme preface this by saying I am completely supportive of transgender people and topics. In my 50s, I've been an arts performer my whole life and have known two M-> F transsexuals (post surgery, which is really saying something for someone our age (we're all three about the same age). I also have a 19-y-o nephew who is exploring and identifying alternately as TG and queer. But this show brings up two issues for me, and I wonder what everyone else thinks about these.

One is how Jazz the person is doing psychologically; this show is a lot to process for such a young person, not to mention the process. The second is wondering how women and men are perceived by transgender people. 

The first: Jazz is a strong person and extremely brave and articulate. But Jazz seems increasingly troubled and has talked about depression.Jazz's physical appearance -- and this is not in any way meant to be nasty -- has changed quite a bit (I realize part of this is coming of age). But Jazz is not a fan of the family exercise program (hey, me too! lol) and seems quite puffy and a bit chunkier than might be healthy. I realize this is part of natural aging as a teen, and hormones may be having an effect too. Jazz just seems to be acting out (the blaring singing in the car, etc) and perhaps the hormones are contributing. If I'd acted like that for a second, my mother would never have put up with it.

The other is extremely troubling. What is it about "femaleness" that attracts M->F transgender teens? Jazz is so intelligent and thoughtful and grown-up in Jazz's statements and speeches! But then in a driving lesson, Jazz turns into a giggly, inept version of a silly girl. I learned to drive, on a stick shift, at 15, in 20 minutes. My father, who taught me, would not have welcomed such inane "I'm just a girl, how can I drive?" behavior. It turns back the feminism clock by a long shot, impressions of femininity meaning you're stupid, like this, when Jazz is clearly very smart. We worked to hard for equal rights to see this. What do you guys think?

Edited June 28, 2017 by orangeiguana

[RemoteControlFreak]

17 minutes ago, orangeiguana said:

The other is extremely troubling. What is it about "femaleness" that attracts M->F transgender teens? Jazz is so intelligent and thoughtful and grown-up in Jazz's statements and speeches! But then in a driving lesson, she turns into a giggly, inept version of a silly girl. I learned to drive, on a stick shift, at 15, in 20 minutes. My father, who taught me, would not have welcomed such inane "I'm just a girl, how can I drive?" behavior. It turns back the feminism clock by a long shot, impressions of femininity meaning you're stupid, like this, when Jazz is clearly very smart. We worked to hard for equal rights to see this. What do you guys think?

I'm not sure I'm answering your question but, to risk over-generalizing, in my observation trans people often tend to embrace the extremes of their "new" gender. So trans women tend to be hyper feminine wish styles and mannerism more stereotypically feminine than those of the average cis woman. And trans men also seem to be have more stereotypically male mannerisms than cis men.  Is this what we're seeing in Jazz?  

Edited June 28, 2017 by RemoteControlFreak

[orangeiguana]

Perhaps. I am mostly trying to understand my nephew through this show.

[SunnyBeBe]

32 minutes ago, ClareWalks said:

They specified "orgasmic," meaning that she could have an orgasm, not an erection. She indicated that she hadn't tried. Definitely an awkward conversation to have with your parents in the room, but of course the doctor would need to know that in order to perform the surgery with the ideal outcome.

ETA that I didn't want you to think I was disagreeing with you, I was agreeing and adding to it :)

Right.  I get it.  I thought that the doctor's entire consult was off the wall bad.  I'd just move on.  No way a doctor can get accurate information about a client going about it that way.  LOL  

Edited June 28, 2017 by SunnyBeBe

[Twopper]

Quote

I'm not sure I'm answering your question but, to risk over-generalizing, in my observation trans people often tend to embrace the extremes of their "new" gender. So trans women tend to be hyper feminine wish styles and mannerism more stereotypically feminine than those of the average cis woman. And trans men also seem to be have more stereotypically male mannerisms than cis men.  Is this what we're seeing in Jazz?  

I don't know, but I am thinking it has more to do with her depression issues which probably include stress at the stage of her transition and family life (brothers gone, starting a new school year but losing friends from the year before, being filmed).  I think filming this season was a bad idea, and a 90 minute or 2 hour update would be adequate.

[Caracoa1]

I feel for Jazz...I'm sure "bottom surgery" is extremely expensive and is only going to be possible with the money the family is making off the seasons of "I am Jazz". It's very obvious she suffers from depression and I do worry for her... I believe she may have been suicidal without those blockers... Also...how will she ever throughout her life be able to afford the care she will need.  Her parents will always be worried what will happen to her if we don't get the next procedure...their lives have to be very stressful.

[ClareWalks]

53 minutes ago, orangeiguana said:

It turns back the feminism clock by a long shot, impressions of femininity meaning you're stupid, like this, when Jazz is clearly very smart. We worked to hard for equal rights to see this.

I don't really expect teenage girls (cis or trans) to be spectacular feminists. They are a self-absorbed lot, and tend to get caught up in the trappings of "how can I get boys to like me? Ooh, makeup and clothes!" moreso than a more mature woman. I wouldn't worry about Jazz setting back feminism, since silly teenagers have been around since long before Susan B. Anthony ;)

[okerry]

7 hours ago, TomGirl said:

Are you sure about this?  Since Jazz's estrogen levels are at the level of a normal adult, why wouldn't that be sufficient?

Well, the show has described to us what all that estrogen has done to Jazz's male sex organs: It has left them in a virtually infantile state. If Jazz has "bottom surgery," those exact same organs will be surgically rearranged into female organs. They will be no more mature or responsive after surgery than they are now. It's the same tissue. It's already maxed out on estrogen. The responsiveness is not going to change. 

The female clitoris is created out of the glans - the head - of the penis. Jazz's is, as they've told us, in an infantile state. You cannot get an adult sexual response, either male or female, out of an infantile sex organ. 

[okerry]

Yikes - on second watching, I wonder if the big attraction for Jazz's mom is the way all this treatment keeps Jazz a child. That seems to be the most important thing to Mom. Look how she reacted to the brothers' simply going away to school. 

[karenkarenbobaren]

I think in deciding to implant a testosterone blocker and put her on estrogen before puberty, you have to take the good with the bad and the bad with the good.

Boys/men who have gone through puberty and then begin to transition... look like men in drag a lot of the time.  Stopping male puberty has allowed her to develop into pretty much a female who has no vagina.

I have no idea what it's like to be trans, but to be able to develop as a female (on schedule) rather than begin after you've essentially become a man, I'm sure is exponentially beneficial, maybe moreso than the idea that a vaginoplasty would be more challenging and not as sexually reactive.

But, this is just the beginning.  There's not necessarily a rush to get a vagina, especially if the technology isn't there yet.  I dunno, can you get testosterone injections locally??  I'm thinking not.  Maybe there's a way for her to develop a penis without compromising the rest of her progress.  I think she is seeing a window of opportunity as far as recovery goes, but perhaps she'll wait till after college to see if there are better options.

It may be more important to her to continue developing normally as a woman rather than develop some irreversible male traits..

[ArmenianGirl]

Completely agree with Karenkarenbobaren comments. Once males enter puberty it does make it much more difficult for the transition. One of Jazzed tran's friend, I think her name is Nichole or something like that, already has the deep voice and is not nearly as feminine as Jazz.

[greekmom]

1 hour ago, Caracoa1 said:

I feel for Jazz...I'm sure "bottom surgery" is extremely expensive and is only going to be possible with the money the family is making off the seasons of "I am Jazz". It's very obvious she suffers from depression and I do worry for her... I believe she may have been suicidal without those blockers... Also...how will she ever throughout her life be able to afford the care she will need.  Her parents will always be worried what will happen to her if we don't get the next procedure...their lives have to be very stressful.

While I would agree with you I thought Greg was a lawyer with  decent insurance.  I thought the show was done for more of educational purposes on trans people. 

I really think the family and Jazz need to concentrate on Jazz and not do the show anymore. Unless the depression is TLC storyline. Then whatever.

[orangeiguana]

Now I'm watching the TLC Jazz marathon. The mom seems surprised that (teen) boys aren't interested in dating "girls with a boy body." OK, there is someone for everyone. With with transgender people estimated at 0.03% of the US population, and teen hormones on overdrive, is that really so surprising? It seemed like a critique of heterosexual teen boys who are attracted to girls, although I realize I am exaggerating this a bit. But really. Duh!

[Bastet]

1 hour ago, karenkarenbobaren said:

I have no idea what it's like to be trans, but to be able to develop as a female (on schedule) rather than begin after you've essentially become a man, I'm sure is exponentially beneficial,

Yeah, there was an episode in a prior season in which Jazz met with a group of transgender adults, and many of them spoke to her about how hard it was to go through the wrong puberty, and to live with its consequences in terms of how it permanently affected their appearance and in turn made it difficult for them to be accepted (not to mention be in less danger) as their true gender.  They were supportive (and envious) of her ability to avoid that.

The article I read announcing this season said it premiered on the 28th, not the 27th, so I missed part one (there's a continuation on tonight, although I'm not sure if it's an episode or an interview; I just saw the tail end of an ad for it) and will have to catch a repeat.

[Literata]

The fact that her penis and testicles are underdeveloped makes me sad for her -- I'm no expert, but as a poster noted above, I don't see how an adult sexual response can come from organs that didn't mature. That said, I know two trans men, both of whom went through female puberty, and both have said that was the absolute worst time in their lives. So Jazz's parents' and physician's decision was most likely a catch-22, and I imagine their priority at the time was helping to ensure she'd be emotionally healthy. 

I also agree with those who feel Jazz suffers from depression, but I have to wonder about this: Think about all the estrogen that's been pumped into her body. I think about my own adventures with PMS, and I'm curious -- and I apologize in advance for my ignorance -- how that impacts her moods, outlook, etc. I've been going through menopause the last few years, and now that I no longer have hormone surges of the same intensity, I'm kind of on a more even keel in general. 

I applaud Jazz's parents for their support of Jazz, their openness, their willingness to educate themselves, etc. I don't applaud the fact that her mom seems to enjoy the notoriety a little too much. And the fact that they use aliases is a huge turn-off to me. If you're going to be real, be real.

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, Literata said:

The fact that her penis and testicles are underdeveloped makes me sad for her -- I'm no expert, but as a poster noted above, I don't see how an adult sexual response can come from organs that didn't mature. That said, I know two trans men, both of whom went through female puberty, and both have said that was the absolute worst time in their lives. So Jazz's parents' and physician's decision was most likely a catch-22, and I imagine their priority at the time was helping to ensure she'd be emotionally healthy. 

I also agree with those who feel Jazz suffers from depression, but I have to wonder about this: Think about all the estrogen that's been pumped into her body. I think about my own adventures with PMS, and I'm curious -- and I apologize in advance for my ignorance -- how that impacts her moods, outlook, etc. I've been going through menopause the last few years, and now that I no longer have hormone surges of the same intensity, I'm kind of on a more even keel in general. 

 

As far as Jazz's moods go, it's probably a multi-factored thing. Not that hormones don't play a part in a persons moods but anyone can suffer from situational depression if they are under a stressful time in their life. Many cis women do suffer from PMS, PMDD etc that causes them to be depressed, yet there are also cis women that never suffer from mood irregularities due to hormonal changes etc (I'm one of them, while I had bad menstrual cramps as a teen I was perfectly fine pre-menstural and once the pain was gone I was my old self). 

 

I think Jazz's emotional and mental well being should be number one, that being said I do think she's done a lot to raise awareness about what trans kids are experiencing etc. I agree with posters above that perhaps a two hour catch-up special would be the best of both worlds rather than a 13 episode show. 

[Kareny]

2 hours ago, okerry said:

Yikes - on second watching, I wonder if the big attraction for Jazz's mom is the way all this treatment keeps Jazz a child. That seems to be the most important thing to Mom. Look how she reacted to the brothers' simply going away to school. 

I think the mom's been pretty clear that the attraction for her is the elimination of the high probability that her transgender child will be a suicide risk - I don't see much of a reason to question that, it does seem pretty compelling to me. 

[Bastet]

I continue to appreciate the inclusion of Jazz's (maternal) grandparents on this show -- they don't say everything right, they're sometimes myopic in their declarations as to what a transgender woman should/must do to transition, but they are loving, supportive, and actively working to understand in a generation where that can be hard to come by.

I also continue to wonder what happened with Jazz's group of friends from season one -- is she truly estranged from them or are they just no longer appearing on the show (either because they/their parents pulled the plug or the producers decided to highlight Jazz's relationships with other transgender teens in subsequent seasons)?  If estranged, how much of that is because she was the only transgender girl of the group, how much is because of the typical growing pains at that age, how much is due to the self-isolation brought on by Jazz's depression, etc.?  I don't want to make blanket pronouncements about what any given person needs, but I and most women I know regard female friendships as pretty much essential to a happy life, so if Jazz really lost that core group, I'd like to know why and how it has affected her.

"I perform gender confirmation surgery but I'm not familiar with this testosterone blocker implant"?  Huh?  The segment with the doctor was strangely edited.  Letting that go, previous storylines focused on the upsides of blocking male puberty in a transgender girl, and now they're exploring the drawbacks.  I'm glad to see both.

I do continue to struggle, however, with a minor's parents consenting to having such intimate issues as their teen's genitalia, still-questioned sexual orientation, horny urges, etc. broadcast to the world.  Overall, I'm likely to be opposed.  But there's so much about Jazz's circumstances - as a transgender youth in general, and as an individual who is clearly mature for her age - that make me less unequivocally "hell, no, this is exploitation!" than I'd otherwise be.  I think this show simultaneously serves a tremendous purpose and overly exposes a vulnerable young person.  It's a difficult position to be in as a viewer, and likely an even more difficult position to be in as a parent. 

[biakbiak]

6 hours ago, greekmom said:

While I would agree with you I thought Greg was a lawyer with  decent insurance.  I thought the show was done for more of educational purposes on trans people. 

Last season his firm switched insurance companies and the new one didn't cover a lot of Jazz's needs including the hormone blocker which his old insurance covered.

[possibilities]

Rather than speculating about what trans people experience based on guesswork, or possibly faulty extrapolation from cis experiences, I always think it's better to ask actual trans people. There are lots of trans adults talking about their lives, including their sex lives, and I'm hoping those stories will be sought out (and better surgeons who actually know something about trans medicine, instead of wherever the guy who did this week's episode's consult came from).

I think also that in any field of emerging medicine, a certain amount of knowledge will be new, and not every source will have all the details. Jeannette said that she'd held off on researching bottom surgery because she knew it was rapidly evolving, so that by the time Jazz would be old enough to consider it, it might be that any earlier info would be out-dated.

It's easy to judge from afar, but as we all know, real life is often complicated and there aren't always obvious perfect answers for every situation.

I don't want to defend or condemn the choices the Jennings parents have made, about doing the show or about medical things. I just don't think we're really in a position to know the whole story from what TLC shows us, but from the perspective of what they do show,  I think it's very helpful to the world to see it-- both for isolated trans people to see and feel recognized, and also for others who may not know much about it.

The show is not perfect, but not worthless, either.

I do wonder about the level of exposure it gives to Jazz. But using pseudonyms to me is a safety issue and I think it's wise for them to do so.

[KBrownie]

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

 

It's easy to judge from afar, but as we all know, real life is often complicated and there aren't always obvious perfect answers for every situation.

I don't want to defend or condemn the choices the Jennings parents have made, about doing the show or about medical things. I just don't think we're really in a position to know the whole story from what TLC shows us, but from the perspective of what they do show,  I think it's very helpful to the world to see it-- both for isolated trans people to see and feel recognized, and also for others who may not know much about it.

 

Forgive me possibilities, and feel free to correct me if this wasn't your intention, but these types of posts tend to rub me the wrong way because they come across, to me, as trying to police and critique any discussion of the show that isn't positive and overflowing with praise.  Everything you say about the benefits of the show are true, but that doesn't exempt it from any deserved criticism.  All of the discussion on here, both positive and negative, has been pretty fair in my opinion.  They all made the choice to put themselves out there, so they have to deal with all that comes with in terms of discussion of them and their lives that might not all be positive.  

And by "deal with all that comes," I don't mean the crazies who stalk them in real life, call Jazz out of her gender or any other slurs, or leave nasty voicemails at their home.  Those people are despicable and should be prosecuted if their actions violate the law.  But those of us commenting on, and learning from one another and the show on this message board?  I don't feel any warnings about being too judgmental when fairly criticizing the people, actions, etc. on the show are warranted.  It comes to close to, in a sort of condescending and backhanded way, telling people, without directly telling them, what they can or can not post about in my opinion.

I enjoy the show for the most part.  These issues are ones I personally have never had to confront, but feel I need to know more about as I teach high school students and have had one or two students in my time who were transgender.  Some of them have been very open about it like Jazz, while others tend to be more low-key.  I like the window the show provides into one person's struggle.  But, like others, if it's no longer good for Jazz, then maybe they need to step back.

[radishcake]

Just a reminder that everyone has the right to post their opinions on the show here. Posting an opposing viewpoint is always fine and helps promote thoughtful conversation. If you don't care to read a differing opinion scroll on or use the ignore feature. 

[msrachelj]

I am fascinated by the grandparents for some reason. they seem well educated and are doing the best they can to understand jazz and transgender in general.  it is not easy for many of us and i applaud them. but my curiosity wants to know , where are they from originally? new york? what was/are their professions? why does grandmother wear a wig and what is wrong with her eye?  i hope she is healthy, i'd love to have a relative like her. the grandfather also seems pretty cool. jazz is lucky to have them. 

[MegD]

I have mixed feelings on this season. One one hand, Jazz seems to be far too emotionally immature to be considering such a major undertaking. She seems to still be giggly over "the search for America's Next Top Vagina" and the possibility of using colon to construct her genitalia. She really needs to be ready emotionally for this surgery as well as physically. I understand why she wants to do the surgery before college, but I don't think it is the best idea for her given her emotional maturity. Post surgical complications can be very serious and she's not yet able to take control of her medical decisions. There's a reason her parents would have to consent to this procedure.

I do think Jeannette is too invested in her kids' lives. She's very much a helicopter parent and it's not helping Jazz find her way in the world. It's too easy for Jazz to retreat into herself when she's uncomfortable because she knows Mom will be there with attention and support. She's the same way with her boys. I have a hard time believing that the boys have never done something like cutting their hair. It was a rite of passage with my brothers that their sports teams' shaved the new boys' heads. Both of my brothers also came home that first weekend from college sporting odd facial hair and funny hair cuts.

Perhaps it was just me, but I got the sense from the physician that he's used to dealing with older adults when he performs surgery so he may not be used to dealing with hormone blockers. I think it made him a tad awkward and abrupt. His questions were definitely for an older individual. There is a definite difference between the involuntary "boner" and achieving orgasm. Even small male children can achieve an erection. This does not necessarily have a sexual component and occur as a reflex. The second occurs after puberty and depends on the changing hormonal levels to cause the development of secondary sex characteristics. Because Jazz has had the primary sex characteristics (the physical characteristics she was born with) and those characteristics have differentiated during fetal development and made the gonads sensitive to testosterone, the body looks for testosterone for development in puberty. It is known that it takes about a year of testicular development to trigger the enlargement of the penis from prepubescent size (which largely doesn't grow much from about the age of 1 until the onset of that puberty development. She has effectively prevented the organ that she needs for her surgery (the penis) from developing into the size needed. I find it hard to believe that this was not discussed or mentioned when she was younger as a risk. The only alternative I can think of is that they figured that wouldn't be their child's problem and everything would be great. However, this is an unrealistic expectation. Surely, given that she's been clear that she wants "bottom" surgery, alternatives to puberty development (like tissue expanders or the colon reconstruction) should have been discussed. After saying all that, I think it was clear that he did not understand her expectations until he spoke with her. At that point, given the limited amount he knew about her (she has a testosterone blocker, she has stopped puberty, she has not had the secondary sex characteristics of puberty), he made the best recommendation that he could.

I think she and her parents need to talk to the doctor who implanted her blocker to find out what alternatives he would suggest. Surely, she cannot be the only child who has had this problem. Or if she is, then perhaps they need a different doctor.

[CarolMK]

Hope this isn't too off topic, but I'm on the hormone blocker Tamoxifen because I had breast cancer earlier this year and it's a pill I need to take daily for the next 10 years in hopes that the cancer doesn't come back. I was already in perimenopause when I was diagnosed and this will probably put me into full blown menopause. It definitely makes me feel different than I did before, and I can see where the hormones Jazz has been taking, as well as the hormone blocker, can affect her moods. 

She can't be the only one who blocked puberty by being put on a hormone blocker at age 11, but I'm guessing it's still pretty rare to see transgender people start identifying that way at age 5, which is when Jazz first expressed she wanted to be a girl. I think the doctors may not have seen many cases like hers and might not be 100% comfortable proceeding with the bottom surgery.

That said, the fact that Jazz is impotent and not orgasmic is pretty depressing if there is nothing that can be done about that. I wonder if her parents would have consented to the blocker if they realized that Jazz might never be able to enjoy sex in her lifetime. 

[possibilities]

Jazz said she hadn't tried to have an orgasm, so we don't know for sure if she's able to. I also take with a grain of salt any disclosures about that which she made on camera and in front of her parents.

I hope the show delves more into this subject area, without necessarily making Jazz's sexuality the focus, but maybe they can address this issue without putting her so personally in the spotlight, maybe by interviewing a doctor who's got more experience with kids who transition young, or adults who are more secure about their sexuality than Jazz seems to be, and would be more comfortable discussing it.

[Fostersmom]

On 6/28/2017 at 3:41 PM, Twopper said:

I know about the empty nest emotions, but I think Jeanette has more issues with Jazz than she is can admit to herself and the stress of that is included in her emotional upset at leaving the twins.  And maybe leaving twins is twice as hard.  I am glad Greg seemed very concerned when she said she slept to deal with her sadness; it sounds like maybe she could use a bit of therapy herself. 

I have no clue how they intend to pay for this surgery which is quite expensive; I am afraid that they need the TLC money for it and that's why they are doing this new season.

Yeah, I saw where they zeroed in on the crotch area at the bookstore and, to a lesser degree, as they were leaving the dorm room; it made me rather uncomfortable for her.

I liked the friend from Atlanta. I hope Jazz can make more friends.

I was a bit uncomfy about her remarks about being pansexual;  I just think she often says what she thinks the trans community wants her to say.  She is just so young.  And if she is one of the handful of MTF transgenders that later regret it, she will probably have even more problems than those people who aren't activists and advocates.  

I agree with this whole post. Mom needs to deal with her own psychological issues before she can try to help Jazz. In fact, Mom's sleeping all day when Greg's not there is possibly making Jazz even more depressed than she already was. Imagine being a 15 year old girl, all full of hormones, dealing with depression yourself, and mom is sleeping and crying because your siblings aren't all still in the house. That's got to be a giant mind fuck for Jazz. 

I noticed the camera shots to her crotch, but I also noticed Jazz wearing the tightest, shortest shorts she could be wearing, but covering her lap with a giant blanket while she was in the car with Mom and at the childhood doctor's office too. It almost made it seem like the intentional shots were a well discussed plot line Jazz was part of. 

The more I see this show, the more I have some doubts Jazz truly comprehends all the things she says or what those things mean. I feel like she's been expected to be the poster child for trans kids for so long, she just repeats the same things over and over like she has basically been coached to do. I'm sure she says things for shock value. God knows my nephew who's turning 15 tomorrow makes saying outrageous things an art/sport. So it's probably a good mix of age, knowing she's got an audience (family and public), and actual beliefs. 

Mom and friends need to back the hell off of trying to convince Jazz she needs to have a potential boyfriend. That's enough to make any teen, male, female, gay, straight, or trans, a twitchy mess. Let's be honest, Jazz seems to thinks she likes the idea of a boyfriend, but her actions scream the exact opposite. The old childhood friend she had a date with, she pretty much blew off. The boy from skating, she wasn't interested in before she even met him. Jazz isn't fully comfortable with or in her body yet, and she might be immature, but she's not stupid. I don't see lot of boys in her high school being open to dating her, and I think she knows that, and I honestly don't thinks she's really truly open to dating girls or other trans kids. Plenty of 15 year olds aren't dating, its not exactly the dire situation the show is making it. Let her be, let her become comfortable with herself, let her actually talk to a guy on her own before trying to push her into dating. 

[sATL]

All I can say is Jazz's father must have one hell of a health insurance plan. What does he do for  living  - besides being on TLC's payroll ?

[orangeiguana]

I think he's an attorney

[possibilities]

I think they're paying out of pocket.

[jennylauren123]

I just started watching this show. The doctor should have politely asked the parents to exit the room before he brought up the subject of orgasms with Jazz. If he wants an honest answer, then he needed to ask her about the issue privately. He could have explained to the parents that he needed a moment alone with Jazz to discuss something that might be embarrassing to her. I know she is a minor, but they would have been right on the other side of the door.

And I am sad that she didn't seem to know what orgasms are. At that age, I would think that she would know. And I truly hope that she gets the female body that she wants. I find her refreshing and smart, just somewhat naive.