S10.E11: World Enough And Time

[MarkHB]

I hate to have done this to myself, but something struck me and now I can't get past it.  SKIP THIS POST if you don't want science to get in the way of the story.

Black holes don't work that way.  Yes, they would slow time down at the end nearest the hole, but the opposite end would be closer to our own regular time stream (not sped up).   Plus, as we saw, each person sees their own timeline as proceeding normally.  So, the Blue Man Group refugee sent a team of 20 to reverse the engines.  What one would think would happen would be that that team would go to the other end of the ship, do the assigned task (which they did), and then return to the bridge, seeming to the commander to only have been gone as long as it took for the elevator to make the round-trip.  They certainly wouldn't have started banging each other and making generations of babies, even if the ship actually was caught there for 1000 years as seen by a distant observer!  The one caveat is the mention of something preventing their return above the 517th (or whatever it was) floor; if that (the Master?) had been in place at the beginning, it might make more sense.

Also, the Doctor has another salute-to-the-past dilemma ahead of him.  Four famously wrestled with the idea of destroying the Daleks at their beginning, and decided against genocide.  Twelve has the ability, with or without Bill, to rescue Blue Man via the TARDIS and shut off the ship engines, letting the ship and all the initial Cybermen fall into the event horizon.

[Florinaldo]

4 minutes ago, MarkHB said:

Four famously wrestled with the idea of destroying the Daleks at their beginning, and decided against genocide.

In a serial called "Genesis of the Daleks", which was transposed to Cybermen in a line of dialogue from the Master in this episode.

[dragonsbite]

On 6/24/2017 at 10:41 PM, Avon.Blakes7 said:

We've seen it before in that alternate reality; the other genesis of Cybermen in a parallel universe in "Rise of the Cybermen!" Didn't the alternate Mom of Rose feel, cry; esp. after seeing her reflection after the conversion?

Look again at the faceplates for the Cybermen, such as in Rise of the Cybermen. They have a tear (as in crying, not a rip) at each eye.

[eurekagirl mOo]

Unpopular opinion....I really, really don't like Bill. To many questions. To many eyebrows (God they bug the hell out of me) Just a BLAH companion. I love Nardole..he should have been the only companion. Took me all this time to warm up to Capaldi and now he's leaving..Sigh..The life of a Who fan. They can keep Bill as a cyperman..Don't care about her at all.

I love Missy. She's delicious and fun and funny.

[gonzosgirrl]

On 6/25/2017 at 1:20 AM, Enigma X said:

I am confused on why future Master/Missy did not recognize past Master but past Master knew who future Master/Missy was. The disguise should not make a difference. I would assume creating the Cyberman was a big deal. Enough to remember details.

Is it possible that Missy did know, and was/is playing The Doctor in order to get to just this place and time? This 'case' was supposed to be random distress call to test Missy, but she was left alone in the TARDIS for some length of time. I know they said she had no access to anything vital, but this is The Master/Missy we're talking about.

[ganesh]

The simple answer is that Simm!Master is before he came to Earth and the whole Saxon plot. But of course the show is never simple when it can be wildly convoluted. 

[MarkHB]

5 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The simple answer is that Simm!Master is before he came to Earth and the whole Saxon plot. But of course the show is never simple when it can be wildly convoluted. 

Except he wasn't... the question was asked earlier in the thread about why he needed the disguise, and his answer, as he took it off, was that he "was someone's Prime Minister."  So he was expecting that Bill would recognize the disgraced tyrant Harold Saxon.

Also, if Bill's "upgrade" sticks, this makes 2 companions I can think of who have met their ends due to the Cybermen (RIP Adric, Earthshock.)

[ganesh]

Yes, like I said, wildly convoluted when it could have just been simple. 

[Florinaldo]

Just now, ganesh said:

Yes, like I said, wildly convoluted when it could have just been simple. 

But then, would it still have been Doctor Who (especially since the reboot)?

[benteen]

I saw a comment elsewhere that reflected one of my few concerns with the episode.  Bill's agency is taken away for the sake of the Doctor's manpain.  That is very Moffat *cough*Sherlock!*cough*.

[dragonsbite]

37 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Is it possible that Missy did know, and was/is playing The Doctor in order to get to just this place and time? This 'case' was supposed to be random distress call to test Missy, but she was left alone in the TARDIS for some length of time. I know they said she had no access to anything vital, but this is The Master/Missy we're talking about.

I thought that she might have been able to use the controls after Twelve held her hands at the end of the previous episode (The Eaters of Light). His fingerprints/DNA on her hands might have given her the ability. And she seemed to come to a realization after he walked away, which I interpreted as "oh hey, he touched me! What can I do with this?"

[LoneHaranguer]

18 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I agree - he should have sent her on a mission where all the factors were known.  Less chance for mischief that way.

The Doctor supposedly sees all that is, was, and could be, so the factors were known. But, he also tends to be a bit arrogant.

[John Potts]

1 hour ago, MarkHB said:

"was someone's Prime Minister."  So he was expecting that Bill would recognize the disgraced tyrant Harold Saxon.

...which just goes to show what a genius The Master is, because how could he possibly foresee that a 21st Century human would show up on THAT spaceship! Unless the reveal is going to be that Missy is a post Eric Roberts but PRE-Derek Jacobi Regeneration of the Master and just remembered that he was going to need a disguise.

But why go for a simple explanation when you could go for something utterly contrived?

[Occasional Hope]

Is this Missy earlier in her own timeline  than we one we saw previously?

[proserpina65]

A lot of this episode was quite creepy, but given that I hate John Simm's Master, I could've done without his appearance.  Poor Bill, though, betrayed by the one friend she'd made.

[ganesh]

While that is as convoluted as I would expect, the Simm Master before the reveal did say, 'you don't remember being here?' to Missy. That's fairly clear Missy is post-Simm. 

That allows for more convolution as Missy 'regains' her memories and knows what Simm is doing ahead of time. Of course, that means Simm has to escape in order to regenerate eventually into Missy. Unless he does that right there and then there's two Missys running around, which is why she might not remember. Timey wimey things. 

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

...which just goes to show what a genius The Master is, because how could he possibly foresee that a 21st Century human would show up on THAT spaceship! Unless the reveal is going to be that Missy is a post Eric Roberts but PRE-Derek Jacobi Regeneration of the Master and just remembered that he was going to need a disguise.

But why go for a simple explanation when you could go for something utterly contrived?

The disguise is actually bang in character for the Master, right down to his having no way to have known he might need one. He once spent hours if not days randomly standing in a field dressed as a scarecrow on the off-chance that the Doctor might happen to wander past. So his being in disguise here was a nice little nod to his history of over-the-top and not entirely necessary disguises.

All that blather about Missy pretending to be Doctor Who at the start, that was the bit that got me all riled up, not Simm's role or disguise.

[KirkB]

The Doctor Who thing has always bugged me a little (not the title of show, the fact they act like it is the question people would ask), and Missy going on and on about it just reinforced that, but at least she was TRYING to be annoying. That was the point. No one confronted with this crazy guy would say "Doctor who?" At most they might ask "Dr. What?" as in "What is your last name?" but more often than not, at least on modern Earth, the response would more likely be "You mean like (insert one named popular celebrity)?"

As it turns out the Master was right to be wearing a disguise. What are the odds, really, that a twentieth century human who could actually recognize Harry Saxon would show up on a spaceship in the middle of nowhere? Given that he apparently has a dastardly plan in place, quite likely since that is the kind of person who often accompanies the Doctor, and he was bound to show up.

Edited June 26, 2017 by KirkB
Spelling.

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

The Doctor Who thing has always bugged me a little (not the title of show, the fact they act like it is the question people would ask), and Missy going on and on about it just reinforced that, but at least she was TRYING to be annoying. That was the point. No one confronted with this crazy guy would say "Doctor who?" At most they might ask "Dr. What?" as in "What is your last name?" but more often than not, at least on modern Earth, the response would more likely be "You mean like (insert one named popular celebrity)?"

As it turns out the Master was right to be wearing a disguise. What are the odds, really, that a twentieth century human who could actually recognize Harry Saxon would show up on a spaceship in the middle of nowhere? Given that he apparent;y has a dastardly plan in place, quite likely since that is the kind of person who would accompany the Doctor, and he was bound to show up.

It's funny how The Master/Missy seems to have control over Cybermen for some reason! Remember "Death in Heaven" with Danny dead and the Brigadier making a cameo supposedly saving his daughter when sucked out of that air plane?

[Ceindreadh]

On 25/6/2017 at 1:46 PM, clack said:

What is the Doctor's thinking here? Why does he need Bill, specifically? Wouldn't Nardole suffice? And it's not as if past companions haven't gotten killed, either. The Doctor knows it's a possibility.

It's weird that Moffat doesn't address this. It's as if James Bond meets some random person and invites her along on a highly dangerous mission, without that person having any specific experience or expertise.

Like about half the episodes of The Man from UNCLE which involved an 'innocent' being caught up in a highly dangerous mission?

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

Like about half the episodes of "The Man from U.N.C.L.E." which involved an 'innocent' being caught up in a highly dangerous mission?

A great show; "Napoleon Solo & Illya Kuryakin at your service" in their never-ending battle against the baddies of T.H.R.U.S.H.! I liked the "The Girl From U.N.C.L.E." as well! It was sorta like them introducing Batgirl to "Batman" in the 60's and musing about a show that never came into production! You see child actors that graduated to adult roles later like Kurt Russell and veterans on the way out like Boris Karloff! ;-)

Edited June 26, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[KirkB]

24 minutes ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

It's funny how The Master/Missy seems to have control over Cybermen for some reason! Remember "Death in Heaven" with Danny dead and the Brigadier making a cameo supposedly saving his daughter when sucked out of that air plane?

Does he? I mean, maybe the finale will show he does, in fact, and that the creation of these Cybermen was his idea or something, but the role he was playing appeared to be submissive. He cowered whenever the nurse showed up. I mean, it could obviously have all been an act, but why? Even if it was for Bill's benefit he could have just as easily made himself the hospital administrator or something and the ruse would have worked just as well.

[clack]

42 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

Like about half the episodes of The Man from UNCLE which involved an 'innocent' being caught up in a highly dangerous mission?

But Bill isn't an "innocent". She's been made part of the team, for some reason.

It's as if Napoleon Solo invited an UNCLE headquarters lunch lady along on a mission.

[truther]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

The disguise is actually bang in character for the Master, right down to his having no way to have known he might need one. He once spent hours if not days randomly standing in a field dressed as a scarecrow on the off-chance that the Doctor might happen to wander past. So his being in disguise here was a nice little nod to his history of over-the-top and not entirely necessary disguises.

That also explains the comic relief about the burglar mask he was wearing when he was taking Bill to the lifts, and how the others in the operation room saw through his "disguise."

[Avon.Blakes7]

5 minutes ago, truther said:

That also explains the comic relief about the burglar mask he was wearing when he was taking Bill to the lifts, and how the others in the operation room saw through his "disguise."

Funny that Missy didn't give him a 2nd look! She's supposedly so observant, being so perfunctory later, all-knowing when she reveals something everyone else missed! He knew Missy right away it seems from the minimal amount of attention I paid to the episode! 

Edited June 27, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[jhlipton]

9 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The Doctor supposedly sees all that is, was, and could be, so the factors were known. But, he also tends to be a bit arrogant.

He sees all "that is, was, and could be" -- except for Cybermen and the Master.  Other than that, though...
He's also been caught flat-footed all through this season, so I don't buy that "sees all that is, was, and could be".

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 minute ago, jhlipton said:

He sees all "that is, was, and could be" -- except for Cybermen and the Master.  Other than that, though...
He's also been caught flat-footed all through this season, so I don't buy that "sees all that is, was, and could be".

OTOH, I can still remember him recalling the events and people involved in "The Waters Of Mars!" His arrogance was on full display that episode and to the detriment of his vow to save them all, Adelaide Brooke killed herself to thwart that arrogance! ;-(

[Ceindreadh]

9 hours ago, clack said:

But Bill isn't an "innocent". She's been made part of the team, for some reason.

It's as if Napoleon Solo invited an UNCLE headquarters lunch lady along on a mission.

Well there was The Never Never Affair where Napoleon sends a translator on what's supposed to be an ordinary errand but she ends up on a mission! ?

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Doctor Who Commences Another Long Goodbye

But is the current Doctor's antepenultimate episode anticlimactic?

[LoneHaranguer]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

He sees all "that is, was, and could be" -- except for Cybermen and the Master.  Other than that, though...
He's also been caught flat-footed all through this season, so I don't buy that "sees all that is, was, and could be".

The Doctor has expressed more than once that it's a bit much for him, telling Bad-Wolf-Rose "doesn't it drive you mad?", so I'm sure he's often not really looking at everything he could and should be seeing. He also gets off on the rush that comes with escaping danger, so why spoil the fun by looking where he's going? Doesn't the Master/Missy have the same ability, making it possible to engineer what the Doctor might dismiss as unlikely?  This gives the Doctor an excuse this time.

19 hours ago, KirkB said:

As it turns out the Master was right to be wearing a disguise. What are the odds, really, that a twentieth century human who could actually recognize Harry Saxon would show up on a spaceship in the middle of nowhere? Given that he apparently has a dastardly plan in place, quite likely since that is the kind of person who often accompanies the Doctor, and he was bound to show up.

I'm sure there are many more folks in the universe that would recognize this incarnation of the Master and for whom a disguise would be in order. They'd just know him under a different name, and may not have arrived with the Doctor.

[jhlipton]

3 hours ago, LoneHaranguer said:

The Doctor has expressed more than once that it's a bit much for him, telling Bad-Wolf-Rose "doesn't it drive you mad?", so I'm sure he's often not really looking at everything he could and should be seeing. He also gets off on the rush that comes with escaping danger, so why spoil the fun by looking where he's going?

But he's sending this fragile collection of non-duplicated organs out with someone who may still be Eeeeeeeeeeeevil.  And he's not going himself.  Now would definitely be the tie to look at everything.  (That's one of the big problems with omniscient characters -- you have to write "glitches" for the omniscience to fail.)

[Beatriceblake]

51 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

But he's sending this fragile collection of non-duplicated organs out with someone who may still be Eeeeeeeeeeeevil.  And he's not going himself.  Now would definitely be the tie to look at everything.  (That's one of the big problems with omniscient characters -- you have to write "glitches" for the omniscience to fail.)

I don't think the Doctor not checking this would be a sort of "milk run" adventure is the problem. The problem is he deliberately involved Bill and Nardole instead of trying to get them to sit this one out.

And now I've thought of this, I kind of wish we'd had the episode where the Doctor has to be the companion to Missy's version of the Doctor ;-) (Or is that going full fanfic?)

Edited June 27, 2017 by Beatriceblake

[LoneHaranguer]

2 hours ago, Beatriceblake said:

I don't think the Doctor not checking this would be a sort of "milk run" adventure is the problem. The problem is he deliberately involved Bill and Nardole instead of trying to get them to sit this one out.

The Doctor likes to play the savior, and how better than to let his companions walk into trouble so that he can rescue them? He'd probably get pretty depressed if he could only look at how (not so) well he's done with the folks where he lands.

[jhlipton]

4 hours ago, Beatriceblake said:

I don't think the Doctor not checking this would be a sort of "milk run" adventure is the problem. The problem is he deliberately involved Bill and Nardole instead of trying to get them to sit this one out.

And now I've thought of this, I kind of wish we'd had the episode where the Doctor has to be the companion to Missy's version of the Doctor ;-) (Or is that going full fanfic?)

Either way would work -- either a scenario where Missy's inclinations could be tested, but the Doctor could "clamp the brakes" before anyone was hurt; or a scenario where simulations of Bill and Nardole went with Missy (if anyone went at all).

And, yes, having the Doctor have to be the "companion" (with the danger they all face) would do wonders to his endangering them.

[amass]

My sons and I think Missy is lying about not knowing where she was and not recognizing her former self...that she brought them there specifically because she knew that Bill would be the first cyberman....

Ontological paradox

[KirkB]

10 hours ago, amass said:

My sons and I think Missy is lying about not knowing where she was and not recognizing her former self...that she brought them there specifically because she knew that Bill would be the first cyberman....

Ontological paradox

That does sound like something Missy would do.

If she's been faking this whole time, trying to play the Doctor so she can either kill him or get away from him, she might very well take this opportunity to hurt him by getting rid of his companion and helping out her past self.  The only problem is, the Doctor didn't seem to be aware of either the black hole or Mondas at first, which leads me to suspect he didn't bring them to this place specifically. So either the TARDIS decided it for them (and it somehow REALLY worked in Missy's favor) or Missy herself convinced the Doctor to let her "randomly" pick where they should go. The former seems most likely, since I'm not sure the TARDIS would allow the latter unless she decided that was where the Doctor needed to be.

And I could very well be wrong but Missy seemed to me to be genuinely surprised when the Master ripped off his mask. If she had come there specifically to see or help him I would have expected her to say something along the lines of "What took you so long?" when he sauntered up behind her. Plus why would the Master even need to ask her if she remembered being there if she did?

Then again, all Time Lords are drama queens so the playing acting could just be for fun.

[Llywela]

Hard to predict at this stage, but Moffat does love playing with paradoxes.

[amass]

the Master could have sent out the distress call in the first place...

[tennisgurl]

Damn it, why haven't we seen the Master pull off his face like a Scooby Doo villain MORE times in the revival? Its ridiculously awesome. "I would have gotten away with it to, if it wasn't for that meddling Time Lord!"

I sort of called this all having to do with Cybermen, and that the janitor guy was shifty, but I didn't at all see it coming that Bill would become the original Cyberman (Cyberwoman),which is a pretty cool twist. That being said, I don't at ALL want this to be how her story ends. I've had a few issues with Bill (mainly her actions in the Monk arc), but I still love her, and want her to stick around for at least another season or two. And if they do need to kill her, at least let her have a kickass or memorable death, not being turned into a robot off screen to create angst for the Doctor. Or let her just leave and get on with her life, there's no reason to end her story on such a sad note, especially when her story has been one of mostly optimism and fun.

So, why in the HELL is the Doctor allowing Missy to run around doing Doctor test runs with Bill and Nardole? This wasn't a test or anything, it was an actual emergency, where he was putting his friends, as well as any innocent people they come across, into real danger if Missy screws them over, or does something wrong without even realizing what she did, due to her self centeredness. Its like what I was complaining about last week, I dislike when the Doctor and Company treat their time/space travel as basically LARPing, and not engaging in dangerous missions that can get innocent people they run into hurt or killed. This might just be a test run for Missy (who the Doctor trusts now because...she's a woman now?) and company, but this is life or death to the people they meet. Not that they cant have fun (those are often my favorite episodes) but they should take helping people who are hurting or scared seriously.

[Lantern7]

53 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Damn it, why haven't we seen the Master pull off his face like a Scooby Doo villain MORE times in the revival? Its ridiculously awesome. "I would have gotten away with it to, if it wasn't for that meddling Time Lord!"

I tend to pitch the DW comics often, but it sounds like you would like "The Heralds Of Destruction," the Third Doctor miniseries from Paul Cornell and Christopher Jones, which will be released next month from Titan Publishing. Lots of Delgado-Master, lots of unmasking. I was okay with Simm-Master and Missy not engaging in that, mostly because their appearances served well as disguises, if that makes sense.

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 minute ago, Lantern7 said:

I tend to pitch the DW comics often, but it sounds like you would like "The Heralds Of Destruction," the Third Doctor miniseries from Paul Cornell and Christopher Jones, which will be released next month from Titan Publishing. Lots of Delgado-Master, lots of unmasking. I was okay with Simm-Master and Missy not engaging in that, mostly because their appearances served well as disguises, if that makes sense.

Why should the Doctor be the only one to have back up help from "past selves?" ;-)

[tennisgurl]

I haven't read any DW comics yet @Lantern7 but that sounds quite promising! There was just something so campy and yet endearing about the old school Masters disguises, and I'm a sucker for campy and endearing in general. I do agree that Simms Master and Missy don't need to do that so much, as their new disguises fit the vibe of the new series more, but I did enjoy seeing that popping up again in this episode.

[Florinaldo]

On 2017-06-26 at 4:05 PM, Llywela said:

The disguise is actually bang in character for the Master

Furthermore, it is a bit reminiscent of the one he wore in "Time Flight", disguised as the time wizard; a bit heavy on the prostethics and false teeth, but better realised this time around (a benefit of bigger budgets).

I did not get the impression that the Master was the instigator of the Cybermen's genesis, but rather that as a repeat opportunist he was ready to take full advantage of it. Leave it to DM and associates to prove me wrong next episode.

[benteen]

On ‎6‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 1:36 AM, Lantern7 said:

I tend to pitch the DW comics often, but it sounds like you would like "The Heralds Of Destruction," the Third Doctor miniseries from Paul Cornell and Christopher Jones, which will be released next month from Titan Publishing. Lots of Delgado-Master, lots of unmasking. I was okay with Simm-Master and Missy not engaging in that, mostly because their appearances served well as disguises, if that makes sense.

That was such a GREAT series.  It's a shame Cornell will only be doing original material now (good for him nonetheless) because that guy understands Doctor Who better than most.  And he admitted he wasn't a particularly big fan of the Third Doctor era.  You never would have known reading that comic.

Anyway, I was very pleased with the Master utilizing one of his old disguises.  As I recall on the old show, often when he appeared in the first part as one of the disguises, the credit would list the actor (usually Anthony Ainley) under a different name.

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, benteen said:

Anyway, I was very pleased with the Master utilizing one of his old disguises.  As I recall on the old show, often when he appeared in the first part as one of the disguises, the credit would list the actor (usually Anthony Ainley) under a different name.

Yeah, in the 80s they used to go to really great lengths to hide the fact that the Master was going to be in an episode, crediting Anthony Ainley under false names until he'd been formally unveiled on-screen. If only we could manage that kind of spoiler-avoidance today - just imagine how epic the reveal would have been in this episode if Simm's return as the Master hadn't already been leaked ages ago!

Although they did do a very good job of covering him up so that it really didn't look or sound like him, to keep people guessing.

[Avon.Blakes7]

On ‎6‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 10:08 AM, Llywela said:

Yeah, in the 80s they used to go to really great lengths to hide the fact that the Master was going to be in an episode, crediting Anthony Ainley under false names until he'd been formally unveiled on-screen. If only we could manage that kind of spoiler-avoidance today - just imagine how epic the reveal would have been in this episode if Simm's return as the Master hadn't already been leaked ages ago!

Although they did do a very good job of covering him up so that it really didn't look or sound like him, to keep people guessing.

During the Delgado era, it wasn't unusual for The Master to be behind every plot against the Earth since the Doctor favored it so much! It could be Sea Devils or Silurians, but somehow The Master was able to shape events! When Ainley started showing up again and again, it almost became as comical! He had almost destroyed "everything" in "Logopolis," but during a regeneration of the Doctor from Baker to Davison, he shows up again in "Castovalva!" My eyes rolled more than a little bit! I was starting to think producers were losing it and running out of ideas and plot! I started feeling the same way about the overuse of Daleks and Cybermen in NU Who when we were lucky to even see them once in a season of Classic Who! He was supposed to be at the end of existence, but he's somehow thrived with and without the help of The Time Lords! I wasn't unhappy to see 2 Masters, but concluding with the apparent double suicide/regens took it to new heights! We will see him/her again I'm sure! ;-) 

[Mabinogia]

I am disappointed that the Master was spoiled because as soon as I saw that the janitor I knew he was the Master. There was no other reason to have an actor in some kind of old age makup/disguise like that. Because of this, the scene were he and Missy meet was more of a "lets get this over with and move on" scene for me, since I knew what was coming. Everything after that, however, was golden! The Master and Missy were quite the dastardly duo.

[AudienceofOne]

I don't think anything has actively annoyed me so much from the very first scene.

Moffatt lecturing us on gender stereotypes has got to be the most tone deaf he's done since.... last week?

[HauntedBathroom]

Did he? I didn't see it.

[AudienceofOne]

Yes the man who decided the Master needed a new name because she was a woman gave the Doctor a rant to Bill about gender stereotyping. Probably because he wanted a female Doctor and all us 'sexist' fans rebelled. I'll give him credit for Bill who I think is awesome but only because she's only had one season. I guarantee you that he would have destroyed her given enough time.