S03.E07: The Return: Part 7

[Penman61]

59 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

My closed captioning told me he said, "Anyone seen Bing?" but I read in the Times this morning the quote was, "Anyone seen Billy?" Either way, I don't know what that means. Maybe the guy who was supposed to meet Andy?

Speaking of which, we know have all the three "clues" the Giant/???? told Cooper in the opening scene of Ep 1: Richard (Horne), Linda (unseen trailer park resident in wheelchair), and 4-3-0, which I interpreted to be the "4:30" the dude who owned that truck was supposed to meet Andy. What they all mean, who knows? 

My closed captioning is often wrong.  I listened carefully again, and he definitely says "Billy" though cc wrote "Bing."  No idea who Billy is, though. 

Re the 3 Giant clues, two of them are pointing Cooper toward Richard Horne. Speaking of which, I enjoy Andy, but him not immediately detaining the man who owned the truck that mowed down that little boy (the boy literally had tire tracks on his back) is some shitty police work.  That perp (we know it's Richard but LE doesn't) is an immediate fatal threat to your community's safety, Andy, and you should be pulling out all stops to get him, not setting up a mysterious meeting two hours later even farther out in the boonies with the truck's owner.  Bad Andy. Bad, bad Andy.  Maybe he's never fully recovered from thwacking himself on the noggin with Leo's plank.

Edited June 19, 2017 by Penman61

[paigow]

Did the lady with take out coffee give a statement to Andy off camera? She would clear the truck owner...

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Renata and Amabella in the same episode.

Right!

This was hands-down the best ep of the season and has me more optimistic about Real Cooper returning before the very last ep. But it also made me like 99% sure it's going to turn out that Bad Coop raped Audrey and that Richard is their son, which sucks.

I saw this on twitter: The diner changed after the man came in calling for 'Billy/Bing.'

[Penman61]

22 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Right!

This was hands-down the best ep of the season and has me more optimistic about Real Cooper returning before the very last ep. But it also made me like 99% sure it's going to turn out that Bad Coop raped Audrey and that Richard is their son, which sucks.

I saw this on twitter: The diner changed after the man came in calling for 'Billy/Bing.'

I saw that and went back and looked at the scene.  What's missing between these two shots is another shot from the other side (all the way over on the customer side) of the counter, a shot of Norma doing her books and looking up, and then we go back to the second shot you have.  So this cutting honestly makes me think it's just a continuity error, though a fairly glaring one.  But we never know, do we?

What struck me from this scene was, if you watch the credits all the way to the end:  1) A young man outside the diner walks in front of the right window, pauses, and then comes in the diner.  He walks over to an empty booth on the right, sits down, looks a bit nervous, but might be just an extra extra-ing.  2) At the same time the young man enters and sits down, the song "Sleepwalking," which has been playing through the entire scene, is now underscored (literally!) with some dissonant, ominous-sounding strings. 

No idea what to make of it.  Could be PTSD from watching The Sopranos diner finale with the exegetical fineness of a Talmudic scholar...

Edited June 19, 2017 by Penman61

[Moxie Cat]

I feel like an idiot that I missed the implication that DoppleCoop raped Diane. I thought she was just testing him, because presumably the real Cooper would know when they last met. But this theory makes way more sense, given how upset she was.

I cheered when the sheriff and Hawk read Annie's famous instructions to Laura. I first saw FWWM when I was 16 (in the theater, no less!). I'm now 41. And even though it took all that time, I feel so lucky that we will finally (hopefully!) get closure on this story. What a unique experience this show has been.

[Pete Martell]

4 minutes ago, Moxie Cat said:

I feel like an idiot that I missed the implication that DoppleCoop raped Diane. I thought she was just testing him, because presumably the real Cooper would know when they last met. But this theory makes way more sense, given how upset she was.

I cheered when the sheriff and Hawk read Annie's famous instructions to Laura. I first saw FWWM when I was 16 (in the theater, no less!). I'm now 41. And even though it took all that time, I feel so lucky that we will finally (hopefully!) get closure on this story. What a unique experience this show has been.

That must have been quite a movie to see in a theater, especially the terrifying parts.

I didn't catch it at first either - I also thought she was testing him. If he did rape her then it casts a much more disturbing light on behavior I thought was supposed to be quirky or eccentric. It's so horrible to think he might have hurt Diane and Audrey (and some think maybe Annie as well) - I just didn't even think that was a possibility, even with the Richard stuff. I guess maybe I was hoping, or I was just naive. 

[LilWharveyGal]

I don't know what it says about me, but the biggest question I took away from this episode is why does Andy have a Rolex?

[Penman61]

7 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

If he did rape her then it casts a much more disturbing light on behavior I thought was supposed to be quirky or eccentric. It's so horrible to think he might have hurt Diane and Audrey (and some think maybe Annie as well) - I just didn't even think that was a possibility, even with the Richard stuff. I guess maybe I was hoping, or I was just naive. 

Yeah, it'd be pretty evil, but remember:  When BOB inhabited Leland, it "made" him rape his own teenge daughter on a regular basis for years.  To quote Noah Cross in Chinatown, BOBCooper is capable of...anything.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Penman61

[Pete Martell]

1 minute ago, LilWharveyGal said:

I don't know what it says about me, but the biggest question I took away from this episode is why does Andy have a Rolex?

When I went back to watch his scenes I thought it was kind of odd seeing Andy in this role at all given we rarely did on the original show and on this one he's been mostly there as the earnest double act for Lucy and the butt of that asshole Chad's jokes. He was still Andy in the scenes, pretty much, and I guess they did mention things he's done offcamera (like comforting the woman whose son ODed), but it was jarring. 

Maybe the watch was a gift from Wally.

2 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Yeah, it'd be pretty evil, but remember:  When BOB inhabited Leland, it "made" him rape his own daughter on a regular basis for years.  To quote Noah Cross in Chinatown, BOBCooper is capable of...anything.

Absolutely. I guess I was surprised Lynch would go there. After FWWM I probably shouldn't have been. I don't want to make it all about Cooper, rather than them, but I also wonder if it's to leave Cooper pretty isolated when he does return to Twin Peaks. 

[Moxie Cat]

23 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

That must have been quite a movie to see in a theater, especially the terrifying parts.

I couldn't watch it for years afterwards! Anything Black Lodge-related freaked me out for a long, long time. And for what it's worth: there was only one screening per day of it, at like 10 pm - but the theater was packed!

On a related note: regarding the man/creature in the morgue, who was presumably the same ghost in the jail cell - I assumed he is one of the scruffy miners who are shown "above a convenience store where they have their meetings" in FWWM. The guy whose arm goes up and down.

Now if Lynch puts the guy with the mask in the red suit who's jumping and screaming in the corner in this, I may be done. :)

[Moxie Cat]

21 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Right after Dougie vanquished Spike, egged on by the Tree Thing that is "the Evolution of the Arm," a (non-Mike) one-armed man walks up and stands behind Dougie/Janey during the aftermath.  Hard to miss once you see it.

Do you mean the older man with the red tie? I watched this carefully, and I think you can see his other hand when he first comes into frame, way in the background. He's kind of turning at the time. When he walks over to Cooper, his jacket is blowing open so it does look like his one arm is missing. It would totally be a Lynch thing to do, though!

[Pete Martell]

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the media thread but it's a pretty good (very gif-heavy though) article about the last episode and ties to past episodes. I had forgotten that Laura also screamed "Who are you?" in that scene with Bob in her bedroom.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/06/twin-peaks-easter-eggs-part-episode-7

[jsbt]

That scene was redolent of not only the Leland bedroom reveal in FWWM, but also the scene with Michael J. Anderson as the crime boss in the darkened chamber in Mulholland Drive - and so much of Lost Highway with Robert Blake as the Mystery Man. I think Dern's character Nikki in Inland Empire also says over and over "look at me!"

[dwmckim]

16 hours ago, scottiB said:

 Or he was a one-night stand from the bar from the rainy night.

 

One nightstand?  That would be Josie!

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

 

I wasn't sure whether to put this here or in the media thread but it's a pretty good (very gif-heavy though) article about the last episode and ties to past episodes. I had forgotten that Laura also screamed "Who are you?" in that scene with Bob in her bedroom.

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2017/06/twin-peaks-easter-eggs-part-episode-7

 

Thank you! Good article! I didn't know that was Lynch's son played Bing (thought he was just a random band member) -- that boy is beautiful. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Logs, Coffee, And Bob: F*ck You, Diane

Dern it, this episode was amazing.

[Nashville]

18 hours ago, Moxie Cat said:

I feel like an idiot that I missed the implication that DoppleCoop raped Diane. I thought she was just testing him, because presumably the real Cooper would know when they last met. But this theory makes way more sense, given how upset she was.

 

18 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I didn't catch it at first either - I also thought she was testing him. If he did rape her then it casts a much more disturbing light on behavior I thought was supposed to be quirky or eccentric. It's so horrible to think he might have hurt Diane and Audrey (and some think maybe Annie as well) - I just didn't even think that was a possibility, even with the Richard stuff. I guess maybe I was hoping, or I was just naive. 

Some sort of sexual assault by EC on Diane was my initial takeaway - but upon reflection....

Keep in mind this is David Lynch we're talking about, and one of the rules in LynchWorld is that Lynch deliberately crafts scenes such that viewers' first impressions are invariably wrong - or extremely oversimplified, at the very least.  BOB was not just some serial sexual predator Rapey Guy running around Twin Peaks; BOB was the purest of evil personified.  I am in no way attempting to minimize the trauma of rape, but I'm fairly certain BOB's direction of Leland to rape Laura was focused on neither control, sexual gratification, or even the specific act of rape itself; rather, it was because perverting and destroying Laura and Leland's pre-existing loving father-daughter relationship in such a complete and total manner was BOB's way to extract the greatest and purest pain and anguish from Laura - and Leland, when BOB reveals to Leland what BOB has been doing while running around in Leland's skin.  And that pain is BOB's protein. 

BOB doesn't care about sex; BOB cares about garmonbozia.  Now, it IS entirely possible an Evil Coop rape of Diane - that total 180-degree twist of what appeared to be a very professional but congenial relationship into a psychically wrenching trauma - would be an undeniable BOB-type move.  Given that we're talking about David Lynch, though, I am very (overly?) cautious about making that my automatic go-to assumption.

Edited June 20, 2017 by Nashville
Wordy McWordster shall die.

[jsbt]

I think rape is always about control. And I think BOB was always kind of the ultimate sexual predator. And MIKE said in the original series that BOB feeds on "fear and the pleasures". He is predatory and hedonistic. He never touched anything or anyone on the original series without looking like he wanted to devour and defile it physically. I have never taken BOB for some cunning schemer, either - I think he is the worst of the primal id personified. If he wants he takes, and he always wanted to take. It's also implied in episode 16 of the original series that he molested a child Leland in his previous host, which is an allegory for the cycle of child sexual abuse.

Yeah, BOB feeds on those things and on pain and suffering (garmonbozia). But few things leave the kind of scar of sexual abuse, while also allowing BOB to sate and satisfy himself. Raping Laura for years both satisfied him and allowed him to cultivate as much pain and suffering as possible; possibly raping Diane and leaving her alive allowed him to feed on that, and possibly doing the same thing to Audrey (and impregnating her) would leave even more of a ripple effect.

We'll see, but the moment the doppelganger growled "at your house" - sounding and looking exactly like Frank Silva/BOB, who is in there with him - and Diane confirmed that as their last interaction, I felt confident they both were talking about the same thing and knew it was very bad. He tells her he'll always remember that night and he is taking ownership of it.

Edited June 20, 2017 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

I do wonder if as some keep speculating that if Audrey had a baby she never would have known it was his and still thinks it's John Justice Wheeler's (and the guy does look a bit like Billy Zane so it would make sense). I'm not sure if that would be better or worse than her knowing this and living with it for 25 years, although you'd think the hospital would know if a patient was assaulted...

Anyway, I do think he assaulted Diane - some think it was mentally, verbally, not physically. I could see that, but Bob is so drawn to rape, I'm not sure if he would change things up.

I was listening to some podcast of the episode that talked about all the supernatural things converging onto the town in this episode. I guess that might be more for the theories thread than the episode thread though.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Nashville said:

I am in no way attempting to minimize the trauma of rape, but I'm fairly certain BOB's direction of Leland to rape Laura was focused on neither control, sexual gratification, or even the specific act of rape itself; rather, it was because perverting and destroying Laura and Leland's pre-existing loving father-daughter relationship in such a complete and total manner was BOB's way to extract the greatest and purest pain and anguish from Laura - and Leland, when BOB reveals to Leland what BOB has been doing while running around in Leland's skin.  And that pain is BOB's protein. 

Couldn't the same be said for BOB wanting to pervert the relationship Cooper had with Diane though? And all the other women in Cooper's life -- Audrey (such as it was) and Annie?

Also, I'm kinda pissed that we've seen more of Deputy Pine Cone than we have of Deputy Bobby Briggs. I'm afraid that Shelly (except for her brief trip out to the bar) and Norma are going to have no further roles beyond that of "diner waitress" and "diner owner." If their presence (and that of the still-unseen Audrey) were of such minimal consequence, the powers that be ought to have refrained from using those actors so prominently in the run-up to this new show. 

[Pete Martell]

32 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

Couldn't the same be said for BOB wanting to pervert the relationship Cooper had with Diane though? And all the other women in Cooper's life -- Audrey (such as it was) and Annie?

Also, I'm kinda pissed that we've seen more of Deputy Pine Cone than we have of Deputy Bobby Briggs. I'm afraid that Shelly (except for her brief trip out to the bar) and Norma are going to have no further roles beyond that of "diner waitress" and "diner owner." If their presence (and that of the still-unseen Audrey) were of such minimal consequence, the powers that be ought to have refrained from using those actors so prominently in the run-up to this new show. 

Shelly has already had more than that through Becky, so I imagine that will reappear. I've actually been pleasantly surprised with Shelly's role as they've kept showing her when they don't need to, which means they want us to care about her.

I hoped we would see more of Bobby, but I wasn't really expecting it. I wasn't even really expecting him to be back, to be honest. I think he will have ties to the drugs coming in and with so much focus on his father he might have a role there, but he was a very isolated character by the time the show wound down. Most of the people we've barely seen were isolated and had their stories wrapped up in the season 2 finale. Some characters are clearly being built up to more, but for the most part I'd guess only Cooper and the main cop characters will get real focus. I also think Audrey is being built up to have some type of impact.

I guess you could say it was false advertising to have them as a heavy focus of promotion, but given how little they were actually needed to move the story on and the claims going around (no idea if they are true) that Showtime may not have even wanted most of them, I consider it more of one last thank you for their role in creating a brilliant program rather than a con. 

Edited June 21, 2017 by Pete Martell

[jsbt]

I know Dana Ashbrook filmed a lot, so I would expect to see more of him. I think everyone in the Twin Peaks cop shop will have a fair bit of airtime.

As for the episode order that was all Lynch, not Showtime. They wanted 9, he wanted 18.

Edited June 21, 2017 by jsbt

[Pete Martell]

1 minute ago, jsbt said:

I know Dana Ashbrook filmed a lot, so I would expect to see more of him. I think everyone in the Twin Peaks cop shop will have a fair bit of airtime.

As for the episode order that was all Lynch, not Showtime. They wanted 9, he wanted 18.

I've heard so much speculation (another one being that Showtime wanted a young cast) but never knew what was true. Thanks. 

[jsbt]

5 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

I've heard so much speculation (another one being that Showtime wanted a young cast)

Yeah, that one's horseshit. They had no control over anything. That whole thing started as clickbait for this Twin Peaks FB thing run by these kinda dodgy dudes - "Showtime is ruining Twin Peaks!" When they got shot down by fans actually in the know they disappeared across the Internet and would occasionally turn up giving the same rumor out.

I should add, I suspect that was Bobby in his leather jacket in the booth on the far right during the credits, with his back to the camera -

I know Dana filmed at the Double R in that jacket and was also there for a night shoot.

Given past practice with previous episodes, it would not shock me if action picked up at the diner at that same time in the next part with some of those TP characters.

Edited June 21, 2017 by jsbt

[tennisgurl]

I actually really dug this episode, it was weird in that classic Twin Peaks kind of way. I mean, its clearly the darker version of the show (with all the creepy rape subtext/actual text), but it wasn't boring or confusing for the sake of being confusing at least. Although, I felt like the scene of the guy (who was that anyway?) sweeping up in the bar was the show straight up trolling us. Like, "You think this show has a slow pace? Watch a guy do mild work around the bar! Muahahah!"? Or maybe that scene had a major plot point or some kind of deep symbolism involved, and I'm just not seeing it. For real, I'm not even being snarky, I don't know. I miss a lot on this show.

I cant believe that its episode seven, and we still haven't gotten Cooper back. Like, I'm not disliking the Dougie stuff, mainly because Kyle M is an amazing actor who can even make being a suburban zombie seem interesting, but I'm going to need to see my favorite character at some point. One of the things I looked most forward to was getting more of his story and seeing more Cooper, and I'm really not getting that. I mean, its not as bad as for other people, considering I just watched this show for the first time last year on Netflix (when this show debuted, I was about a month old, so I would've been even more confused. Maybe?) so its not like I've been waiting for years for this, but I still really miss the guy. I just want him to get his coffee!

BOB is just the ultimate evil. Nothing he does will ever surprise me. It will horrify me, but I'm not particularly surprised.

Edited June 21, 2017 by tennisgurl

[PatternRec]

On 6/19/2017 at 5:36 PM, Moxie Cat said:

I first saw FWWM when I was 16 (in the theater, no less!). I'm now 41. And even though it took all that time, I feel so lucky that we will finally (hopefully!) get closure on this story. What a unique experience this show has been.

Amen. I'm 46 and I watched TP week to week when it first aired, and saw FWWM in theaters. I love that Lynch is revisiting the material in real time, 25 years later, with his different perspective on things and growth as an artist over the same period of time. It's pretty amazing. 

[meep.meep]

13 hours ago, jsbt said:

 

As for the episode order that was all Lynch, not Showtime. They wanted 9, he wanted 18.

Which he's going to accomplish just by having everyone talk .... really .... slowly.

And that sweeping scene - it was epic!

[Penman61]

On 6/19/2017 at 9:02 PM, Moxie Cat said:

Do you mean the older man with the red tie? I watched this carefully, and I think you can see his other hand when he first comes into frame, way in the background. He's kind of turning at the time. When he walks over to Cooper, his jacket is blowing open so it does look like his one arm is missing. It would totally be a Lynch thing to do, though!

I went back to check, and you are 100% correct.  That is NOT a one-armed man.  Phew!  Apologies for mis-seeing.  Thank you for catching that.

Now, back to decoding the digitized light reflections off the FBI Learjet windows...

Edited June 21, 2017 by Penman61

[Moxie Cat]

Damn, the glitch in that ending diner scene is really hard to unsee. Nothing about that first shot, with the sweater guy in the foreground, matches the "Billy" and later shots except maybe the waitresses. It will likely never be explained, but I just can't believe Lynch would be that slipshod about continuity.

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

Damn, the glitch in that ending diner scene is really hard to unsee. Nothing about that first shot, with the sweater guy in the foreground, matches the "Billy" and later shots except maybe the waitresses. It will likely never be explained, but I just can't believe Lynch would be that slipshod about continuity.

I don't believe it either.  At all.  IMHO to call the continuity disruptions accidents would be jumping the gun.

[paigow]

Is there a "dinerganger" in South Dakota???

[dwmckim]

So that sweeping shells scene...

When i watched it the first time, my mind started to wander as to the actual purpose of both the scene and its length and my thought was that it was evoking the point of view of someone that's sadly sitting at their seat who's stayed behind (the typical drowning their sorrow sad guy who's the last to leave) and i was wondering who it might be.  But no such revelation (though maybe that's where Bing ended up being?)

So that leaves me with two other conclusions (aside from just saying "it's Lynch trolling us"):

1)  It's a commentary on how a lot of nuts end up in the Roadhouse/town.

2) Foreshadowing that SHELLy will be swept up by someone.

Edited June 25, 2017 by dwmckim

[Penman61]

On 6/22/2017 at 5:37 PM, Nashville said:

I don't believe it either.  At all.  IMHO to call the continuity disruptions accidents would be jumping the gun.

I'm one who dismissed The Great Diner Shift as continuity sloppiness.  But these comments made me look at the sequence again.  (And again..and again...).

And...now I don't think it's continuity sloppiness, because (in order of importance):

1) As far as I can tell, NOT ONE CUSTOMER IS THE SAME after the shift. NOT ONE: At the counter, standing at the register, in the booths--not a single one.  The staff (Shelly, Norma, Heidi et al) are the same, though in different places.  This is way too much for just continuity sloppiness.  

2) BEFORE Bing comes in and shouts about Billy, Shelly is looking confused.  It's hard to see and happens fast, but it's after the first cut in the sequence, when the shot moves from restaurant left to restaurant right: BEFORE Bing comes in, Shelly is looking around quizzically, like something's off.  THEN Bing comes in, shouts, and Shelly still looks around as if to say "Wait, what? Weird, right? Anyway..."  And then she goes and talks to Heidi in a normal way, puts her hand on Heidi's arm, etc.  So Shelly thought something was amiss AFTER all the customers were swapped out but BEFORE Bing came in.  Weird.

3) I and others had noticed non-diegetic music playing under "Sleep Walk"(!) toward the end of the credits.  Someone on another site says it's a slowed down version of the Windom Earle theme.  Can't verify this myself.  

Edited June 25, 2017 by Penman61

[jsbt]

It is the Windom Earle music.

[Penman61]

7 hours ago, jsbt said:

It is the Windom Earle music.

Thanks for that confirmation.  

Now I feel like Lynch is teaching us to pay attention to the goshdarn credits!

[kimbrchick]

On 6/19/2017 at 5:36 PM, Moxie Cat said:

I feel like an idiot that I missed the implication that DoppleCoop raped Diane. I thought she was just testing him, because presumably the real Cooper would know when they last met. But this theory makes way more sense, given how upset she was.

I cheered when the sheriff and Hawk read Annie's famous instructions to Laura. I first saw FWWM when I was 16 (in the theater, no less!). I'm now 41. And even though it took all that time, I feel so lucky that we will finally (hopefully!) get closure on this story. What a unique experience this show has been.

I saw FWWM in the theater as well and I'm almost 40. I saw it with my friend who is now David Lynch's wife. She owned the TP box set and I watched the whole series with her. Yep, it's strange lol. I think I need to rewatch the movie. I've seen it again since, but's it's been a long time.

I didn't get the possible rape implication either but that does make sense and would be horrific. Laura Dern's acting was superb.

I really need normal Cooper to return soon. Like now.

[dwmckim]

40 minutes ago, kimbrchick said:

I saw FWWM in the theater as well and I'm almost 40. I saw it with my friend who is now David Lynch's wife. She owned the TP box set and I watched the whole series with her. 

You must get some truly wonderful Christmas/birthday presents!