S10.E10: The Eaters Of Light

[Llywela]

52 minutes ago, Bruinsfan said:

The Doctor has crossed his own timeline before, and it's seemed as if the consequences of doing so are somewhat lessened by being in different regenerations (the War Doctor's observation that three of him in one place for an extended time could cause paradoxes, as opposed to Nine and Rose immediately causing calamity by interacting with their past selves).

I think it was actively changing the established timeline that caused problems for Nine and Rose - by saving her father's life Rose re-wrote her entire life history and created an enormous temporal paradox. Different versions of the same person existing in the same time period but not coming into contact with one another would be fine - I mean, the current Doctor has apparently been living quite comfortably in Bristol for several decades now, despite the fact that multiple other versions of himself have been active in the same time period at various times - heck, he'd have been quietly hiding away in Bristol at the same time that the 3rd Doctor was also based permanently on Earth for several years in the 70s!

[ganesh]

How long as the Master been "Missy"? Did they say?

[Avon.Blakes7]

1 minute ago, Llywela said:

I think it was actively changing the established timeline that caused problems for Nine and Rose - by saving her father's life Rose re-wrote her entire life history and created an enormous temporal paradox. Different versions of the same person existing in the same time period but not coming into contact with one another would be fine - I mean, the current Doctor has apparently been living quite comfortably in Bristol for several decades now, despite the fact that multiple other versions of himself have been active in the same time period at various times - heck, he'd have been quietly hiding away in Bristol at the same time that the 3rd Doctor was also based permanently on Earth for several years in the 70s!

This was why I was so "put off" by Rose and the Doctor's indulging her every whim! When she jumped out there to save her father, after all was fixed, she would be home within 2 min. and left! She's just such a selfish little brat; most companions are, but Rose took the cake! She got away with murder and she never really paid any consequences! 

2 minutes ago, ganesh said:

How long as the Master been "Missy"? Did they say?

Too long! He was supposed to be "out of time" during Classic Who and here he/she continues to find ways of cheating "non-existence!" ;-(

[ganesh]

I meant we only met her while the Doctor was Twelve, but I was wondering how long she has been in the Missy incarnation overall. The show did say that the Time Lords gave the Master a new set of regens, so I don't think the out of time applies anymore. I was wondering if we went from Saxon-Master --> Missy or how many in between. 

[Llywela]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

I meant we only met her while the Doctor was Twelve, but I was wondering how long she has been in the Missy incarnation overall. The show did say that the Time Lords gave the Master a new set of regens, so I don't think the out of time applies anymore. I was wondering if we went from Saxon-Master --> Missy or how many in between. 

The Master's timeline has always been a bit woolly, but we know he's had a lot of incarnations we never met. The first version we met was the Delgado!Master back in the 1970s, then when Roger Delgado died suddenly the character was retired for a while, before Geoffrey Beevers was brought in to play a badly disfigured version of him, at the very end of his regenerative cycle - with no way of knowing if he'd lived all those lives since we last saw him, or before we ever met him. He then stole the body of a man named Tremas, giving us the Ainley!Master. In the 90s he stole another body, to give us the Roberts!Master. Then came Derek Jacobi and John Simm in New Who, and now Missy. So there are lots and lots of gaps, periods of time unaccounted for, with no way of knowing how many decades or centuries or lifetimes the character has experienced in between appearances.

[jhlipton]

We have a thread For All Seasons, so talk on a particular episode doesn't get bogged down ion "Well, in Season 12 , thus and so happened."  I for one don't know who Rory or Clara or any of the above are, and don't care to,  This isn't meant to be snarky, just annoyed.

On 6/17/2017 at 11:32 PM, LiveenLetLive said:

I love anything to do with Roman period Britain, the historical fact is also that that Rome was racially mixed and that race was not a big deal in that period, and the attitude about sexual orientation was legitimately more relaxed then than in our own time, so all that was good.

That was indeed fun.

On 6/18/2017 at 2:09 AM, Avon.Blakes7 said:

loser companions who can't really help the Doctor! They usually initiate the drama really just pushing the story through their own incompetence! 

Bill was the one who found the remains of the Legion, and got back to the Doctor on her own.  Hardly a "loser" or "incompetent".

[Avon.Blakes7]

4 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

We have a thread For All Seasons, so talk on a particular episode doesn't get bogged down ion "Well, in Season 12 , thus and so happened."  I for one don't know who Rory or Clara or any of the above are, and don't care to,  This isn't meant to be snarky, just annoyed.

That was indeed fun.

Bill was the one who found the remains of the Legion, and got back to the Doctor on her own.  Hardly a "loser" or "incompetent".

So they saved her by writing her survival! You're telling me it made sense for her to wander about in the past on her own while the Doctor went off in the other direction? The producers must love your acceptance! ;-)

[Captain Carrot]

21 hours ago, Llywela said:

They simply wanted to destroy and to rule, and cared less than nothing for the lives of others.

 

11 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

I think the situation with the Mistress is somewhat unique in that she's spent at least several decades only interacting with a former friend that she doesn't regard as canon fodder, rather than running amok among "lesser" beings whose lives she doesn't value. At least one of their talks had the feel of a therapy session, and if the Doctor has been conducting those for a whole human lifetime with the goal of awakening her conscience it's possible he might be getting some traction at this point. Of course it's also possible that upon being given some freedom she might backslide, which could be what's going on with John Simm's teased appearance (if it's not a case of actually crossing her timeline and meeting that earlier version of the Master).

 

Colonialism has come up so much that I'm wondering if Missy will be 'partially' redeemed. In the sense that she becomes motivated to protect worlds, but she does so by conquering them. (queue cliches about the good of the many, ends justifying means, and people sacrificing liberty for security).

[call me ishmael]

I enjoyed it for the most part.  Both the Romans and the Picts seemed less ridiculous than last week's Victorians.   But I do think it was a bit too cute having Kar quote Tacitus on the "Romans making a desert and calling it peace.". I'm not sure Roman historians were taught in the Picture educational system.

Edited June 20, 2017 by call me ishmael
Stupid autocorrect

[ae2]

Was there any hint in this episode about Capaldi's time in Pompeii during his pre-Doctor days? I was waiting for it, but had a hard time hearing/understanding some parts of the episode (especially at the beginning when the Doctor and Bill discussed her love for ancient Rome). 

[Llywela]

21 minutes ago, ae2 said:

Was there any hint in this episode about Capaldi's time in Pompeii during his pre-Doctor days? I was waiting for it, but had a hard time hearing/understanding some parts of the episode (especially at the beginning when the Doctor and Bill discussed her love for ancient Rome). 

No, and there's no reason there should be, since Caecilius was just a random person the Doctor met once, not one of former past selves - and he has visited the Roman era more than once, even lived there for several months in his first incarnation. He did refer to having lived in the Roman era once, but did not mention his trip to Pompeii, which was wise - the more they reference the fact that this Doctor is played by an actor who played another role in the show previously, the harder it is to maintain the fourth wall and suspension of disbelief. Such things really are best left unspoken.

[Avon.Blakes7]

29 minutes ago, Llywela said:

No, and there's no reason there should be, since Caecilius was just a random person the Doctor met once, not one of former past selves - and he has visited the Roman era more than once, even lived there for several months in his first incarnation. He did refer to having lived in the Roman era once, but did not mention his trip to Pompeii, which was wise - the more they reference the fact that this Doctor is played by an actor who played another role in the show previously, the harder it is to maintain the fourth wall and suspension of disbelief. Such things really are best left unspoken.

I could just be tired, but are you guys sure? I could swear they did look at the Pompei character and tried to tie it into the reason the Doctor looks the way he does now! I'm pretty sure it was brought up, though briefly in one of the Doctor's long soliloquies explaining why something is the way it is at the moment! Clara may have still been in the picture! I don't re-watch Nu Who like Classic WHO so I can't just 'roll-a-deck" my brain to the exact moment; SORRY! Nu Who has been so convoluted, I don't even try to figure it out and keep ARCs straight in my head at 60! If you listen close, it appears the "Time War" has been going on the entire series; just coming into prominence with Tom Baker in "Genesis of the Daleks!"

Edited June 20, 2017 by Avon.Blakes7

[Llywela]

28 minutes ago, Avon.Blakes7 said:

I could just be tired, but are you guys sure? I could swear they did look at the Pompei character and tried to tie it into the reason the Doctor looks the way he does now! I'm pretty sure it was brought up, though briefly in one of the Doctor's long soliloquies explaining why something is the way it is at the moment! Clara may have still been in the picture! I don't re-watch Nu Who like Classic WHO so I can't just 'roll-a-deck" my brain to the exact moment; SORRY! Nu Who has been so convoluted, I don't even try to figure it out and keep ARCs straight in my head at 60! If you listen close, it appears the "Time War" has been going on the entire series; just coming into prominence with Tom Baker in "Genesis of the Daleks!"

Yes, it was referenced once - the 12th Doctor with Clara (in that first episode with Maisie Williams, when he made her immortal) suddenly 'remembered' where he'd seen his own face previously, and theorised that he'd subconsciously taken that appearance to remind himself to help people. That was kind of my point - referencing it even once strains the bounds of credulity, repeated references would do nothing but draw attention to the contrivance. Sometimes the elephant in the room really is best left unmentioned!

And yeah, New Who really does want us to believe that the Time War has been going on forever, that Genesis was the start of it - yet that really isn't the case.

[Bruinsfan]

They've kind of cheapened the Time War as time has gone on (distilling it down to a Dalek fleet shooting at Gallifrey through a planetary force field), but my original impression from the first season of Nu Who was that both sides were using time travel as a weapon, repeatedly changing the past in attempts to gain advantage over each other. So the war was happening everywhere, in the distant past and far future, and causing universe-wide disruptions as history was rewritten again and again.

[ganesh]

Actually explaining the Time War was the greatest narrative error of the new era. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Take Your Pict Of Doctor Who Season 10 Themes

The Doctor and companions solve a historical mystery while treading familiar ground.

[jhlipton]

On 6/19/2017 at 7:34 PM, Avon.Blakes7 said:

So they saved her by writing her survival! You're telling me it made sense for her to wander about in the past on her own while the Doctor went off in the other direction? The producers must love your acceptance! ;-)

No further comment.