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Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

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I don’t think Dany is looking smug, more like she’s picking up the obvious hostile vibes Sansa is throwing down (with good reason tbh, because she doesn’t know Dany).   But Sansa needs to reign that back because even Brienne is looking like “please don’t please don’t please don’t”.

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2 hours ago, anamika said:

But Sansa can't seem to hide her saltiness here, even though Dany is also now a very important ally with dragons, weapons and two large armies. Perhaps the 'no dissing' rule only applies to the people who butter her up.

I can't help but compare this scene with Margaery's "shall we pray" scene. That was master level in hiding one's feelings.

I did expect some defiance from the Northern side, including Sansa. After S7, there was no doubt they wouldn't put out the welcome mat and in universe Jon expects it, Dany expects it, if only because Jon warned her enough about it. It's even normal since they don't know Dany for who she is yet...well normal up to a certain point, because when someone does you a favor (offering reinforcements against an invasion) a minimum politeness is required upon greeting them.

Moreover, in this short exchange, it isn't about defiance and I don't think it's even about Dany. Per the EW article, Sansa is mad at Jon for bending the knee, and instead of putting on a perfectly courteous face a la Margaery and then confronting Jon in private, she vents her frustration publicly on their guest, an ally with two larges armies and two large dragons which (like the audience knows) the North is going to need greatly very very soon. This is such a bratty and unwise thing to do. Where is Sansa's supposed political astuteness? In S7, she considered Cersei a threat at least equal to the NK. She knows that Dany has to take Cersei down if she wants the throne. And she isn't even able to do the simple math "my enemy's worst enemy = my new best friend...for now, at least"? It was in her best interest to be extra gracious to Dany in public even if she doesn't trust her or doesn't like the idea of her.

Thankfully, like it was said several times upthread, I think that hyping a Jon/Sansa/Dany political conflict is a sign that it won't last and neither will the obnoxiousness.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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24 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Maybe she hired Sansa to sew them for her.

If Sansa whole gig of being the Lady of Winterfell doesn't pan out, she could always open up her own atelier. She has the skills for it.  Dany's white coat is gorgeous, and it fits in with the whole Northern furs aesthetic, but her ascot. looks like it is made from silk. Did Dany and Jon run into some random silk merchants on their return trip North?

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I don't think that anyone in the North will see Daenerys only  an ally. They are not idiots, they know her army is important, but at first they will think that the price is too high and that Daenerys just wants to conquer them. For some, being killed by WW is better than being ruled by another mad Targaryan.

 

And giving up on Northern independence was not the only way of making alliance with her, if she really cares about well being of Westeros. 

 

Ofc, Dany is not mad and they will soon see that she deserves the title, but I don't think that the fact that are not super thrilled about this pact is unreasonable.

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40 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I can't help but compare this scene with Margaery's "shall we pray" scene. That was master level in hiding one's feelings.

I did expect some defiance from the Northern side, including Sansa. After S7, there was no doubt they wouldn't put out the welcome mat and in universe Jon expects it, Dany expects it, if only because Jon warned her enough about it. It's even normal since they don't know Dany for who she is yet...well normal up to a certain point, because when someone does you a favor (offering reinforcements against an invasion) a minimum politeness is required upon greeting them.

Moreover, in this short exchange, it isn't about defiance and I don't think it's even about Dany. Per the EW article, Sansa is mad at Jon for bending the knee, and instead of putting on a perfectly courteous face a la Margaery and then confronting Jon in private, she vents her frustration publicly on their guest, an ally with two larges armies and two large dragons which (like the audience knows) the North is going to need greatly very very soon. This is such a bratty and unwise thing to do. Where is Sansa's supposed political astuteness? In S7, she considered Cersei a threat at least equal to the NK. She knows that Dany has to take Cersei down if she wants the throne. And she isn't even able to do the simple math "my enemy's worst enemy = my new best friend...for now, at least"? It was in her best interest to be extra gracious to Dany in public even if she doesn't trust her or doesn't like the idea of her.

Thankfully, like it was said several times upthread, I think that hyping a Jon/Sansa/Dany political conflict is a sign that it won't last and neither will the obnoxiousness.

I wouldn’t cite TV Margaery as a counterexample.  Natalie Dormer played Margaery’s public persona with extreme smarm — she was very obviously phoney.

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Ned says"Winterfell is yours, your grace," to King Robert and Sansa repeats the exact same phrase to Dany. She is publicly supporting Jon's decision in front of everyone in the castle.

Edited by merrick715
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1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

I can't help but compare this scene with Margaery's "shall we pray" scene. That was master level in hiding one's feelings.

I did expect some defiance from the Northern side, including Sansa. After S7, there was no doubt they wouldn't put out the welcome mat and in universe Jon expects it, Dany expects it, if only because Jon warned her enough about it. It's even normal since they don't know Dany for who she is yet...well normal up to a certain point, because when someone does you a favor (offering reinforcements against an invasion) a minimum politeness is required upon greeting them.

Moreover, in this short exchange, it isn't about defiance and I don't think it's even about Dany. Per the EW article, Sansa is mad at Jon for bending the knee, and instead of putting on a perfectly courteous face a la Margaery and then confronting Jon in private, she vents her frustration publicly on their guest, an ally with two larges armies and two large dragons which (like the audience knows) the North is going to need greatly very very soon. This is such a bratty and unwise thing to do. Where is Sansa's supposed political astuteness? In S7, she considered Cersei a threat at least equal to the NK. She knows that Dany has to take Cersei down if she wants the throne. And she isn't even able to do the simple math "my enemy's worst enemy = my new best friend...for now, at least"? It was in her best interest to be extra gracious to Dany in public even if she doesn't trust her or doesn't like the idea of her.

Wait. Where is Sansa venting anything? She says "Winterfell is yours," and calls Dany "your grace." Now granted, it's completely insincere, but I haven't seen her venting unless HBO suddenly released another promo I haven't seen. 

And where hasn't she done the math on Dany and Cersei? Dany has the means to defeat the AotD, so Sansa will play along. As far as I can see Dany seems pleased with what Sansa is saying.

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10 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

 She is publicly supporting Jon's decision in front of everyone in the castle.

Which is the first time Sansa has publicly supported Jon in anything! So that's certainly an improvement over season 6,7 Sansa. Hopefully that continues and she hashes out her disagreements with him in private with Arya and Bran rather than argue with him in front of the Northern houses and their esteemed guests. 

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3 hours ago, anamika said:

For example when the lords insulted Jon and praised Sansa she's like  - OMG you guys, thanks so much! You are all so kind! *blush*.

 Like she was jumping up and down with giddiness when Jon told her the north is hers.?

I think there's a reason GRRM put out the excerpt of Queen Alysanne going north to meet the Lord (Lady ) of Winterfell.

Jon though , not sure if he truly understands Sansa's feelings, he knew her as the sister who wanted to leave the north, now though she's the one more fiercely protective of it, to a point it could be detrimental to his plans.

I don't know 1- 2 episodes tops before both woman see each other in a better light  .

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12 hours ago, anamika said:

Yep, Sansa is salty! And Dany knows this from her expression, lol!

Sansa's going to be plenty salty, but we already knew this from her reaction to Jon's letter in Season 7 and Hibberd teasing Sansa's pique about Jon's fancy new Targ girlfriend in the EW preview. 

Now that I can better see Dany's new outfit, I have to say that I prefer the white/grey fur coat from S7 to this new white/burgundy version, but I guess that's just Michele Clapton being Michele Clapton:

GOT fans in S7: Dany's fur coat is soooo pretty!

Michele Clapton: Say no more, Dany will wear nothing but variations of that fur coat for the remainder of the show.

I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion was off at a brothel. He missed the greeting bit in 1x01 for that reason, after all.

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40 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I wouldn't be surprised if Tyrion was off at a brothel. He missed the greeting bit in 1x01 for that reason, after all.

Wouldn't it be too cold for a rendezvous in the brothel? Plus this time around he has a more important job.

image.thumb.png.0501f96cfb12f6a5edf74dfd4fd68b2b.png

There seems to be a banner in the back on a greenish background. Since those guys seem to be on horses, it looks to be that of a Northern house that's rode in with Jon and Dany. Mormont? Manderly?

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9 minutes ago, anamika said:

Wouldn't it be too cold for a rendezvous in the brothel? Plus this time around he has a more important job.

There seems to be a banner in the back on a greenish background. Since those guys seem to be on horses, it looks to be that of a Northern house that's rode in with Jon and Dany. Mormont? Manderly?

Maybe Dany thought it best given Tyrion's history with the Starks and general anti-Lannister sentiment in the North if Tyrion made himself scarce at first.

It's entirely possible that Tyrion is there too but just standing off to the side. If they really wanted to be extreme, they could have used CGI to edit Tyrion out of the shot for promo purposes. They edited Tyrion out of the Daznak Pit scene for the S5 trailer.

Edited by Eyes High
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10 minutes ago, anamika said:

Wouldn't it be too cold for a rendezvous in the brothel? Plus this time around he has a more important job.

image.thumb.png.0501f96cfb12f6a5edf74dfd4fd68b2b.png

There seems to be a banner in the back on a greenish background. Since those guys seem to be on horses, it looks to be that of a Northern house that's rode in with Jon and Dany. Mormont? Manderly?

The Stark banners I think sometimes look green rather than gray in the blue tint.  

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37 minutes ago, anamika said:

Wouldn't it be too cold for a rendezvous in the brothel? Plus this time around he has a more important job.

image.thumb.png.0501f96cfb12f6a5edf74dfd4fd68b2b.png

There seems to be a banner in the back on a greenish background. Since those guys seem to be on horses, it looks to be that of a Northern house that's rode in with Jon and Dany. Mormont? Manderly?

Stark banner, you can make out the direwolf in the upper portion , also it's off white / beige and green lower third.

Manderly's Green with a merman and trident.

Edited by GrailKing

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26 minutes ago, onyxrose81 said:

The Stark banners I think sometimes look green rather than gray in the blue tint.  

The Stark banner is white with the grey direwolf. There is one hanging behind Jon. 

Edited by YaddaYadda

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1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

The Stark banner is white with the grey direwolf. There is one hanging behind Jon. 

yes but the color shifts with the filters used, and that is a Stark banner in the rear.

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2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Wait. Where is Sansa venting anything? She says "Winterfell is yours," and calls Dany "your grace." Now granted, it's completely insincere, but I haven't seen her venting unless HBO suddenly released another promo I haven't seen. 

And where hasn't she done the math on Dany and Cersei? Dany has the means to defeat the AotD, so Sansa will play along. As far as I can see Dany seems pleased with what Sansa is saying.

It isn't what she says, it's the tone. Sansa is mad at Jon's decision to bend the knee  (again, spelled out in the EW article) decision which compels her to bend the knee, too. Instead of keeping that feeling for herself, she expresses it through her pissy/salty tone, i.e she vents, and she does it when she adresses Dany,  whom she has no reason to resent since the queen brings help against an invasion. Hence my statement that she's venting her resent towards Jon on Dany.

I get that she isn't happy about having to say "Winterfell is yours" because she loves being the lady of WF and being mistress in her childhood home, I get that she isn't happy about bending the knee since she obviously didn't fully realize yet the threat represented by the AOTD (Daenerys said it herself, you have to see it to believe it). Again it's normal that she's defiant, and she didn't have to be sincere because why would she at this point? I say, on the other hand, that the smart thing to do, especially for someone politically astute, was to hide her bad mood in front of Dany and present a gracious façade.

Sansa didn't do the math imo because if she had, she would have been extra courteous in order to get on Dany's good side, so that she could become her personal ally and not only her ally through Jon. I also thought it was more important for her to unite against Cersei than to let resent speak or to squabble; yet seemingly, it isn't the option she chose here.

When Dany walks toward Jon, she looks pleased, and imo there's a clear contrast with her plastered polite smile in answer to Sansa's less than enthusiastic welcome. YMMV :)

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

I wouldn’t cite TV Margaery as a counterexample.  Natalie Dormer played Margaery’s public persona with extreme smarm — she was very obviously phoney.

In S3-S4, I agree. But I was talking about S6, when even some viewers wondered if she was truly brainwashed. Sansa is clearly unhappy in the promo, a stark contrast with Margaery vs Unella in the scene I mentioned.

49 minutes ago, anamika said:

There seems to be a banner in the back on a greenish background. Since those guys seem to be on horses, it looks to be that of a Northern house that's rode in with Jon and Dany. Mormont? Manderly?

During Jon vs Ramsay, the shield of House Mormont has only green on the side and in the middle, it's a black bear on a yellow-ish field. This banner in the courtyard seems more completely green so I'd say Manderly, unless indeed it's a Stark banner with its color messed-up by a filter.

Edited by Happy Harpy
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9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I get that she isn't happy about having to say "Winterfell is yours" because she loves being the lady of WF

I think you are really simplifying things and making her seem petty. She is not happy that their home is given to a stranger, to Mad King's daughter. In this moment I don't think Sansa or anyone else in the North think there is that much difference between Daenerys and Cersei. 

 

9 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

I also thought it was more important for her to unite against Cersei

And why would Sansa think(at this point) that Daenerys is even better option than Cersei? Cersei at least is much weaker, it's easier for the North to deal with weak Lannisters than powerful Targayren. 

 

And yes, Daenerys is coming to help, but from Sansa's perspective this could only mean that she is helping them so she could take the North for herself. From Sansa's perspective, if Daenerys is so selfless, she would help them unconditionally, but she wanted big political "favor" before helping them. 

Edited by nikma
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My point is, I don't think that tensions in the North will be the biggest element of the last season, but it would be bad writing to completely ignore history and human nature and have everyone in the North fall in line when Daenerys comes. Things are not black and white, yes, they need Daenerys but if she is liberator as she claims to be why she even needed Jon to bend the knee? She would let everyone in the North die otherwise? And it's not like they will refuse her help, they just don't trust her. 

I'm speaking from the Northern POV. I, personally, don't have a horse in this race. I just want interesting story. 

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I hope we get the speculated turn of events where Sansa suggests a marriage alliance as the answer to their problems and everyone acts like this is a stunningly clever political move (rather than a ragingly obvious one), and all the while Sansa makes it clear that to her it's a way to get Jon/Dany the hell away from her power base.

Has any character on the show really fooled the viewers? Margaery was more determined than Sansa to win friends, but as was pointed out, the fakeness of her Princess Diana act was obvious. Smarmy Littlefinger's betrayal didn't seem to surprise any season 1 newbies. No one liked the Freys or Roose enough to be shocked by the betrayal, only by the scale of it. I can't think of any other examples right now, so if the Tyrion betrayal theory does come true, that might be the only truly shocking face-heel turn of the show, and it would surely be hotly debated afterwards whether the shock was intentional or simply due to bad writing.

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1 minute ago, ElizaD said:

Smarmy Littlefinger's betrayal didn't seem to surprise any season 1 newbies

I disagree. 

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7 minutes ago, ElizaD said:

I hope we get the speculated turn of events where Sansa suggests a marriage alliance as the answer to their problems

I think she will suggest this when she realizes that Jon won't be just a pawn in that relationship. 

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Seeing that this should be no more then a month from S7E7, shouldn’t the first thing Jon sees is a head on a spike on top of Winterfell ?
And a look of WTF from Jon?

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34 minutes ago, nikma said:

And yes, Daenerys is coming to help, but from Sansa's perspective this could only mean that she is helping them so she could take the North for herself. From Sansa's perspective, if Daenerys is so selfless, she would help them unconditionally, but she wanted big political "favor" before helping them. 

Dany has never claimed to be that selfless.  Her publicly stated goal has always been to take her place as queen of the seven kingdoms.  Sure, in private she's talked about breaking the wheel, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, but it's clear she views Westeros as her birthright.  Jon, Robb, and Ned might have been stupid enough to expect people to do "the right thing" solely for the greater good but Sansa isn't supposed to be that naive.  If she's going to be pissed at anyone (rightfully or otherwise) it should be Jon because he's the one who bent the knee in exchange for help the North was probably going to get anyway.

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7 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Dany has never claimed to be that selfless.  Her publicly stated goal has always been to take her place as queen of the seven kingdoms.  Sure, in private she's talked about breaking the wheel, whatever the hell that is supposed to mean, but it's clear she views Westeros as her birthright.  Jon, Robb, and Ned might have been stupid enough to expect people to do "the right thing" solely for the greater good but Sansa isn't supposed to be that naive.  If she's going to be pissed at anyone (rightfully or otherwise) it should be Jon because he's the one who bent the knee in exchange for help the North was probably going to get anyway.

Yeah, she pledged on the boat, before he even said the words " How about my Queen ", he did not have to do it.

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This Dany vs Sansa drama is already tiresome and it's only been a few hours since the footage came out. People on Twitter are legit fighting over this like.. yikes, it's just fiction people.

I'm annoyed that D&D only seem to write rivalries, sassiness and petty catfights for female characters, especially following the Sansa and Arya stuff from S7. And the male characters just all magically get along...

I'm still not sure if Winterfell is fully destroyed or just slightly damaged in episode 3 but by this point the Dany and Sansa stuff will obviously be over. Unless they start fighting over King's Landing but I really doubt that, defeating Cersei should be the priority especially after she refused to help against the WW.

Ultimately and I know most of you will disagree but if HBO is willing to tease this conflict, it probably means it won't be a long one.

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1 hour ago, Happy Harpy said:

It isn't what she says, it's the tone. Sansa is mad at Jon's decision to bend the knee  (again, spelled out in the EW article) decision which compels her to bend the knee, too. Instead of keeping that feeling for herself, she expresses it through her pissy/salty tone, i.e she vents, and she does it when she adresses Dany,  whom she has no reason to resent since the queen brings help against an invasion. Hence my statement that she's venting her resent towards Jon on Dany.

We see from our perspective that Sansa is pissed off. That to us is perfectly obvious. We don't know what Dany is feeling, we only see a smile on her face. I don't think Dany's smile is fake but YMMV. She could be thinking, "Imma cut that bitch's throat as soon as I can." But venting to me means ranting and raving and letting off steam. This is not venting from Sansa.

I disagree that Sansa has no reason to resent Dany, though. I don't think she should be angry with Dany; her anger should be directed toward Jon. But resentment and mistrust, sure. That I can understand.

3 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

Ultimately and I know most of you will disagree but if HBO is willing to tease this conflict, it probably means it won't be a long one.

Yeah. I mean there are the reports that Sansa will urge Dany and Jon to get married, which why haven't they thought of that themselves? I imagine the bigger character conflicts will be Jon reconciling himself with his Targaryen heritage, and Dany reconciling with Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also there will be interesting reunions with Jon/Arya and Jon/Bran, Sansa/Tyrion, Arya/Gendry. These are all interesting subplots. But for now it's SANSA VS. DAENERYS until we get a new promo, which will be God only knows when.

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31 minutes ago, Nightingale said:

This Dany vs Sansa drama is already tiresome and it's only been a few hours since the footage came out. People on Twitter are legit fighting over this like.. yikes, it's just fiction people.

That's what happens when you don't give anything to fans in more than 16 months. 

And I don't think that even trailer can make things better in the fandom. That will only create 1000 new stupid theories. 

And when the show airs it will be even worse lol. I have few places on internet where I like to discuss the show but I think situation in the fandom will only be worse in the next months. 

 

Too much hype and emotion for my taste.

Edited by nikma
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8 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Yeah. I mean there are the reports that Sansa will urge Dany and Jon to get married, which why haven't they thought of that themselves? I imagine the bigger character conflicts will be Jon reconciling himself with his Targaryen heritage, and Dany reconciling with Jon's Targaryen heritage. Also there will be interesting reunions with Jon/Arya and Jon/Bran, Sansa/Tyrion, Arya/Gendry. These are all interesting subplots. But for now it's SANSA VS. DAENERYS until we get a new promo, which will be God only knows when.

I'm not too sure about Sansa suggesting a marriage although I can see why everyone thinks she'll do it. If Jon is somewhere in the south, ruling or not, with Dany as wife, Sansa would get to rule whatever is left of the North without much competition and the knowledge that someone she trusts is in power. It makes sense but I'm not completely convinced Jon and Dany will get married, as much as I want them to. 

And yeah there are too many potentially great interactions and relationships to waste 6 episodes on Sansa vs Dany. I've been fearing this "conflict" for years to be honest. Pitting two pretty popular female characters against each other is the worst thing that can happen to a fandom. Especially when it was already toxic to begin with.

Here's hoping that we get that teaser on friday.

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1 minute ago, Nightingale said:

Pitting two pretty popular female characters against each other is the worst thing that can happen to a fandom.

And imagine what will happen when we get Jon and Dany vs Tyrion. Lol

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Sure, Sansa has reasons to be resentful. She clearly wants an independent North with her in charge and Jon has given it away. She does not and has never trusted in Jon's intellect and experience as a leader and therefore is not going to trust in Jon's opinions of Dany. She will have to figure out on her own - over the first two episodes till the AOTD come knocking - that they really need Dany's help.

I believe that Arya and Bran will be more receptive towards Dany - as we saw last season, Arya trusts in Jon and if Jon thinks it's the right thing to do, Arya will support him. Besides Jon loves Dany.  Bran knows the urgency of the WW situation and how much they need Dany. 

Maybe that's why they are not there in the courtyard -  it could be that their more curious and receptive interaction with Dany will be markedly different to Sansa's formal and frosty welcome. EW made no mention of their response and both Arya and Bran have been written on the show as not being desirous of ruling and power - so they may not be as resentful that Dany wants to be Queen of the 7K.

Plus, we may get some much needed plot advancement and story for Arya as she slowly changes to smart, thoughtful, playful season one Arya. Arya has lived among the people in Essos/Braavos and may not have the xenophobic dislike for the foreign queen and her armies that most of the Westerosi - even Tyrion -  have displayed. She may even empathize with someone exiled and growing up alone in Essos like she has. They both share the notion of 'answering injustice with justice' and helping those who cannot help themselves.  I can really see Arya and Dany bonding and hopefully D&D give us these two female characters interacting positively.

The only thing getting in the way of a good Arya-Dany friendship though, could be Tyrion. Currently everyone trusts and likes Tyrion and he is Dany's hand of the queen. If FM Arya figures out that Tyrion is up to no good, Dany may not like that her hand has been accused of being a traitor.

2 hours ago, Happy Harpy said:

When Dany walks toward Jon, she looks pleased, and imo there's a clear contrast with her plastered polite smile in answer to Sansa's less than enthusiastic welcome. YMMV :)

I agree. She clearly is genuinely smiling as she moves to meet Sansa and then it turns to a 'I know you don't really mean it' smile when Sansa speaks.  Dany has seen and dealt with her share of bullshitters, so she knows bullcrap when she sees it.

I think Jon would have also warned her about what to expect with respect to the North and even Sansa - 'I have got this pain in the ass, annoying younger sister who disagrees with everything I say, so don't expect new friends!'

And considering Yohn Royce protested against Wildling savages in the North, I can't wait to see his response to the Dothraki!

3 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's entirely possible that Tyrion is there too but just standing off to the side. If they really wanted to be extreme, they could have used CGI to edit Tyrion out of the shot for promo purposes. They edited Tyrion out of the Daznak Pit scene for the S5 trailer.

 

HBO has been so hilariously stingy with respect to their season 8 promos/trailers that this maybe the case.

The first teaser we get - Jon and Sansa meeting again in the first scene of season 8. They play this same shot for two months.

In the next teaser, they expand that scene slightly to now show Jon, Sansa, Dany and Jorah. No doubt they will play this clip for another two months.

For the March trailer, it will be the same scene, but they will further show a little bit more with Arya, Tyrion and Bran standing at the corners of the courtyard while Jon, Sansa and Dany meet.  Another teaser further down may now show the Hound standing near Brienne or someone.

And that's it. That will be GOT promo/trailers and then the first episode will air in April.  I would not put it past HBO to do this and just end with this one scene for promotion while we sit and analyze collar collar and background banners. This is revenge for the season 7 leaks.

Edited by anamika
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Love the clip. It's JUICY as GRRM would say.

"This will all blow over and they'll all get along"

maybe in Game of Thrones: Coffee Shop AU

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5 hours ago, nikma said:

They are not idiots, they know her army is important, but at first they will think that the price is too high and that Daenerys just wants to conquer them. For some, being killed by WW is better than being ruled by another ad Targaryan.

I agree with this, but I'd go further and say they're right. She does want to conquer them, eventually. She wants the 7 kingdoms. She'll expect it.

Dany is a conqueror. 

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I saw Sansa complying with all the courtesy due to the new, completely unknown monarch that the North just gave up its independence to. Warmth is withheld, yes, but Dany is fully aware of the circumstances. IMO, expressions of false pleasure that Dany would know couldn't be real would come off like ladling treacle over the bitterness that Dany knows would be underneath. That is, it would seem fake, distasteful, and seeming to consider Dany a fool to be taken in so easily. I wouldn't pretend to be overjoyed at someone I'm uneasy and upset to see if I didn't think I could pull it off effectively.

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2 hours ago, nikma said:

I think you are really simplifying things and making her seem petty. She is not happy that their home is given to a stranger, to Mad King's daughter. In this moment I don't think Sansa or anyone else in the North think there is that much difference between Daenerys and Cersei.

To be honest, you also simplified my quote because the next words are about Sansa being mistress in her childhood's home, and the whole paragrah is about why I think Sansa's POV is understandable. I don't criticize her motivations, which are complex, emotional as well as political. Sansa loves WF and is attached to it sentimentally (now) but there's no denying she also loves power, status and independance.

"Winterfell is yours" is a set phrase and doesn't mean that Daenerys will take their family home from the Starks to make it her own; it means that Sansa bends the knee, which, again, I understand her reasons for not being happy about. Moreover, Jon went to Daenerys' stronghold and she comes back with him as an ally instead of executing him like Aerys or Cersei would have done. Even if the Northern lords are too stupid to realize it, Sansa knows Cersei so this fact only should be enough for her to get that Daenerys is a better person and a safer bet than her. I hope she says something along those lines as soon as possible in 8x01, it would compliment her character by showing, not telling re: her insight and intelligence.

1 hour ago, Minneapple said:

But venting to me means ranting and raving and letting off steam. This is not venting from Sansa.

I disagree that Sansa has no reason to resent Dany, though. I don't think she should be angry with Dany; her anger should be directed toward Jon. But resentment and mistrust, sure. That I can understand.

Venting doesn't mean ranting and raving. It's "the expression or release of a strong emotion". Sansa is very upset, she lets it slip instead of keeping it bottled. That's what I meant, no more.

I agree that if she's mad at Jon, it's Jon she should confront.  Not in public -still slow learning since S6. As I said, I get why she's frustrated or defiant, I just happen to think it's a misstep to show it, especially directed at the wrong person. I only hope it will be the only one, or at worst, the first of a very very short series.

25 minutes ago, anamika said:

I believe that Arya and Bran will be more receptive towards Dany - as we saw last season, Arya trusts in Jon and if Jon thinks it's the right thing to do, Arya will support him. Besides Jon loves Dany.  Bran knows the urgency of the WW situation and how much they need Dany. 

[...]

Plus, we may get some much needed plot advancement and story for Arya as she slowly changes to smart, thoughtful, playful season one Arya. Arya has lived among the people in Essos/Braavos and may not have the xenophobic dislike for the foreign queen and her armies that most of the Westerosi - even Tyrion -  have displayed. She may even empathize with someone exiled and growing up alone in Essos like she has. They both share the notion of 'answering injustice with justice' and helping those who cannot help themselves.  I can really see Arya and Dany bonding and hopefully D&D give us these two female characters interacting positively.

I agree, especially about Arya's mentality. She was never one to care about social status or origins, she always had an open mind and it helped her a lot along her way; I can't see her joining the Northern lords in their foreign whore rhethoric. I can see how she and Daenerys would bond and I hope it's going to happen. Yet, to play the devil's advocate, she's also extremely protective of Jon and she doesn't give a fuck about diplomacy or political niceties. She could also be a challenging presence, especially in the very beginning, and give Jon a couple of headaches with her no BS attitude and off with their heads conception of conflict resolution. 

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3 minutes ago, Happy Harpy said:

Venting doesn't mean ranting and raving. It's "the expression or release of a strong emotion". Sansa is very upset, she lets it slip instead of keeping it bottled. That's what I meant, no more.

Okay, well, YMMV obviously. We're not going to agree on this.

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I do think it's not the smartest thing to be obviously bitter to Dany's face like Sansa was.She's supposed to be a great diplomat and politician so openly showing contempt for the person who is coming to help with her huge armies and dragons and is more powerful than you  is kind of a weird move.But I guess she can't help herself.And the show wants it's drama.

I love Dany's outfit,she looks great tho the coat seems kinda big on her compared to the one last season.

About Arya not being there,I really think the show will give them a private reunion or at least a reunion where they can totally focus on each other so I'm not surprised if Arya isn't there.Bran not being there also won't surprise me,he seems to spend most of his time in the godswood I guess.And he's all emotionless now so seeing Jon won't mean that much to him which is so sad to me.Hopefully Sam is there to make sure he delivers the news of Jon's parents in a less blunt,inconsiderate way lol

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I don't think we can analyze the entire relationship between Sansa and Daenerys, even in the first 2 episodes, based on 3 secondes we saw. 

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22 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

do think it's not the smartest thing to be obviously bitter to Dany's face like Sansa was.She's supposed to be a great diplomat and politician so openly showing contempt for the person who is coming to help with her huge armies and dragons and is more powerful than you  is kind of a weird move.But I guess she can't help herself.And the show wants it's drama.

 

It annoys me. It annoys me that they have to feed into this toxic fanbase and pit the two most popular female characters against each other. You should see the toxic vitriolic bullshit going around on the tumblers and Twitters and articles right now. “ Sansa showed that bitch whose boss! “ “ Danys gonna wipe that smirk off her face “ blah blah blah blah . A lot of it stems from this “ Whose gonna get Jon?” “ whose gonna be Queen?” It’s sickening that that’s the narrative for these characters, that it revolves around a man. Last season had all the men putting all their problems aside, including past murder attempts, to fight for a common goal, and here we get cat fights. 🤮🙄.

Daenarys managed to be civil to Jaime Lannister and meet with him, right after he tried to murder her, and knowing he killed her father. Everyone in the Dragonpit managed to be civil and all come together for a meeting and try to form a truce even though they all had legitimate reasons to to kill each other. But in Winterfell we have this nonsense. So far anyway.

What has Dany done to the Starks specifically that Sansa should mistrust her or be resentful? Her father might have been a psycho but Dany has done absolutely nothing to the Stark family to deserve hate. The north is isolated and alone.  They only have the Vale. Cersei is against them and the NK is coming, they need allies and Dany is coming with armies and dragons . It’s Jon who gave away the North and bent the knee even after Dany promised to help, Sansa should be pissed at him, not at the woman who is coming to help them with fight an apocalyptic threat. 

Sansa and Dany should be allies, they are both survivors. It would be nice if the women on team Good guy could band together and show some common sense.

Edited by GraceK
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So here we go again. Sansa not being in love with Dany at first sight (like everybody else) and not treating her like the special snowflake some fans think she is. The b*tch.

Where was this kind of reaction when Dany, a no one in Westeros, didn't observe basic courtesy in regards to Jon, refusing to address him with the right title and basically acting like she was better than him.

Double standards ahoi. Signed, GoT fandom.

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2 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Daenarys managed to be civil to Jaime Lannister and meet with him, right after he tried to murder her, and knowing he killed her father. Everyone in the Dragonpit managed to be civil and all come together for a meeting and try to form a truce even though they all had legitimate reasons to to kill each other. But in Winterfell we have this nonsense.

I think toxic fanbase influenced your opinion about this scene. It is more civil than almost anything that we've got in Dragonpit. Sansa is cold, yes, but that's it. In Dragonit we expected massacre to happen every moment. 

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I don't think this so called Sansa vs Dany rivalry will last more than half an episode, if that.  I think they are just following social media and somehow there is some sort of rivalry between the two about who is the better queen when in reality I don't really think there will be a rivalry.  Somehow one of them can do no wrong and the other can't do anything right.  It's understandable that Sansa will be wary of Dany at first but Dany's intentions of coming North is to help them.  Dany's not coming to take Winterfell away from the Starks or to conquer them, she's coming because she saw the true threat and wants to stop them and that was before Jon bent the knee to her.  I doubt that Sansa will be hostile to Dany once she knows the whole story.  There is a certain segment of fandom that either wants Sansa to put Dany in her place or Dany to put Sansa in her place which I doubt will happen in the show. 

The producers don't really want to give away anything really juicy in these promos.  I'm more interested in what is going on with Arya and Bran and considering that we are getting nothing in these promos so I'm concluding that whatever the story arcs for Arya and Bran will be GOOOD. 

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6 minutes ago, Smad said:

So here we go again. Sansa not being in love with Dany at first sight (like everybody else) and not treating her like the special snowflake some fans think she is. The b*tch.

Where was this kind of reaction when Dany, a no one in Westeros, didn't observe basic courtesy in regards to Jon, refusing to address him with the right title and basically acting like she was better than him.

Double standards ahoi. Signed, GoT fandom.

Yeah. I really don't get this. What they expected? Fireworks for Daenerys? 

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3 minutes ago, Sunshinegal said:

don't think this so called Sansa vs Dany rivalry will last more than half an episode, if that.  I think they are just following social media and somehow there is some sort of rivalry between the two about who is the better queen when in reality I don't really think there will be a rivalry. 

Oh I agree. That’s why I’m annoyed. It’s the fact that they are choosing to focus on this “ rivalry “ and “ conflict “ between these two female leads to hype up the new season , when chances are it’s not even going to be a big deal. And it’s just feeding into the toxicity.

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11 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It annoys me. It annoys me that they have to feed into this toxic fanbase and pit the two most popular female characters against each other. You should see the toxic vitriolic bullshit going around on the tumblers and Twitters and articles right now. “ Sansa showed that bitch whose boss! “ “ Danys gonna wipe that smirk off her face “ blah blah blah blah . A lot of it stems from this “ Whose gonna get Jon?” “ whose gonna be Queen?” It’s sickening that that’s the narrative for these characters, that it revolves around a man. Last season had all the men putting all their problems aside, including past murder attempts, to fight for a common goal, and here we get cat fights. 🤮🙄.

Daenarys managed to be civil to Jaime Lannister and meet with him, right after he tried to murder her, and knowing he killed her father. Everyone in the Dragonpit managed to be civil and all come together for a meeting and try to form a truce even though they all had legitimate reasons to to kill each other. But in Winterfell we have this nonsense. So far anyway.

What has Dany done to the Starks specifically that Sansa should mistrust her or be resentful? Her father might have been a psycho but Dany has done absolutely nothing to the Stark family to deserve hate. The north is isolated and alone.  They only have the Vale. Cersei is against them and the NK is coming, they need allies and Dany is coming with armies and dragons . It’s Jon who gave away the North and bent the knee even after Dany promised to help, Sansa should be pissed at him, not at the woman who is coming to help them with fight an apocalyptic threat. 

Sansa and Dany should be allies, they are both survivors. It would be nice if the women on team Good guy could band together and show some common sense.

I think they actually will be allies,probably even bond.And faster than expected because it's only a 6 episode season.By the time WF falls and everyone sees the NK,I think the petty drama and distrust will mostly be resolved.

I've seen the twitter stuff and yeah it's ugly on both sides.But tbh idk if HBO is playing into that exactly,GoT is so popular they can basically release anything and get people hyped and the last season will be incredibly successful no matter what.They don't really need to pit stans against each other.

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And why is it important that they are female characters? There wasn't  any rivalry and  conflict with male characters in this show? 

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15 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

think they actually will be allies,probably even bond.And faster than expected because it's only a 6 episode season.By the time WF falls and everyone sees the NK,I think the petty drama and distrust will mostly be resolved.

I hope so 😇. At least we have actual footage to talk about. 

 

15 minutes ago, nikma said:

And why is it important that they are female characters? There wasn't  any rivalry and  conflict with male characters in this show? 

For me personally I just didn’t like the way D and D wrote some stuff last season for some of the female characters. I’m not gonna rehash all of that here because it’s been beaten to death, but I found it a pretty jarring contrast that in a episode where all the men came together and communicated and worked towards a common goal, you had two sisters at their worst. Now you have teasers that maybe are benign on the surface but explode within in the fandom as Sansa vs Dany and it just irritates me, that’s it’s being marketed that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️ But that’s just  my opinion. And maybe I’m over analyzing and just letting the toxic portion of the fanbase get to me, like you said earlier 😊. 

I’m just happy we at least have somethijg new to discuss. It’s been such a dry desert!!!

Edited by GraceK
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37 minutes ago, GraceK said:

It annoys me. It annoys me that they have to feed into this toxic fanbase and pit the two most popular female characters against each other. You should see the toxic vitriolic bullshit going around on the tumblers and Twitters and articles right now. “ Sansa showed that bitch whose boss! “ “ Danys gonna wipe that smirk off her face “ blah blah blah blah . A lot of it stems from this “ Whose gonna get Jon?” “ whose gonna be Queen?” It’s sickening that that’s the narrative for these characters, that it revolves around a man. Last season had all the men putting all their problems aside, including past murder attempts, to fight for a common goal, and here we get cat fights. 🤮🙄.

Daenarys managed to be civil to Jaime Lannister and meet with him, right after he tried to murder her, and knowing he killed her father. Everyone in the Dragonpit managed to be civil and all come together for a meeting and try to form a truce even though they all had legitimate reasons to to kill each other. But in Winterfell we have this nonsense. So far anyway.

What has Dany done to the Starks specifically that Sansa should mistrust her or be resentful? Her father might have been a psycho but Dany has done absolutely nothing to the Stark family to deserve hate. The north is isolated and alone.  They only have the Vale. Cersei is against them and the NK is coming, they need allies and Dany is coming with armies and dragons . It’s Jon who gave away the North and bent the knee even after Dany promised to help, Sansa should be pissed at him, not at the woman who is coming to help them with fight an apocalyptic threat. 

Sansa and Dany should be allies, they are both survivors. It would be nice if the women on team Good guy could band together and show some common sense.

 

Ah, so the women join together and Girl Power and awesome and all that, but dammit, Sansa isn't allowed to be pissed. That's not an acceptable emotion because yay girl power.

So has it been confirmed that Sansa is pissed at Dany? As far as I can tell in the eight seconds of screentime that we've actually seen, nobody has screamed at each other, or yelled, or physically fought. Sansa putting on a fake smile and telling Dany that Winterfell is hers is apparently akin to slapping Dany, I guess. I would assume that Sansa is more angry at Jon and resentful of Dany and frustrated at the situation, but that's my own wild and crazy interpretation of the text.

What has Dany done to Sansa? Well, nothing, but Sansa has no reason to trust her yet. Sansa doesn't really trust anyone and you can't really blame her. Maybe she'll come around, maybe she won't. As far as we know based on what we've seen onscreen, in public she is accepting Dany as queen.

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20 minutes ago, GraceK said:

but I found it a pretty jarring contrast that in a episode where all the men came together and communicated and worked towards a common goal, you had two sisters at their worst.

I agree that it is beaten to death, but in that episode where those man came together, Stark sisters did some together as well. I don't think that D&D are misogynists. In E6 you have Dany's speech where she is like "so many stupid man that just want to be heroes and outdo each other", 

 

22 minutes ago, GraceK said:

ow you have teasers that maybe are benign on the surface but explode within in the fandom as Sansa vs Dany and it just irritates me, that’s it’s being marketed that way. 🤷🏻‍♀️ But that’s just  my opinion. And maybe I’m over analyzing and just letting the toxic portion of the fanbase get to me, like you said earlier 😊. 

I don't think that this fandom is on the level of Star Wars, but a lot of things in this fandom are toxic. I don't think that they could show anything without hysteria in some parts of the fanbase. 

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16 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

 

Ah, so the women join together and Girl Power and awesome and all that, but dammit, Sansa isn't allowed to be pissed. That's not an acceptable emotion because yay girl power.

So has it been confirmed that Sansa is pissed at Dany? As far as I can tell in the eight seconds of screentime that we've actually seen, nobody has screamed at each other, or yelled, or physically fought. Sansa putting on a fake smile and telling Dany that Winterfell is hers is apparently akin to slapping Dany, I guess. I would assume that Sansa is more angry at Jon and resentful of Dany and frustrated at the situation, but that's my own wild and crazy interpretation of the text.

What has Dany done to Sansa? Well, nothing, but Sansa has no reason to trust her yet. Sansa doesn't really trust anyone and you can't really blame her. Maybe she'll come around, maybe she won't. As far as we know based on what we've seen onscreen, in public she is accepting Dany as queen.

Yikes. That’s a radical interpretation of my post. Or maybe not so radical judging by a few other responses after my original 😂😂. I did post a few more that explained what I meant better, but for clarification I wasn’t trying to say anything against Sansas reaction. My issue is with the hype around the trailer, and how some of the fanbase is taking it as Sansa Vs Dany. As I stated upthread, I personally think that this conflict is bull and will blow over in like an episode. I specifically said nothing against Sansa in my post, I stated what is being said about them both online and the toxicity surrounding them and why it bothers me. When did I say she wasn’t allowed to be pissed? I said she should be mad, at Jon. Her reaction is being blown way of proportion and that’s my whole point. 

I only mentioned that Dany has done nothing to Sansa or the Starks to emphasize the fact that I feel this “ conflict” between the ladies is malarkey. 

Edited by GraceK
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Advisory: This topic is for S8 Spoilers & Spec. If your post predominantly concerns book comparisons or a character's past season actions it will be removed. 

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