Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[MadameKillerB]

2 hours ago, screamin said:

But if magic is going out of the world (as the Children of the Forest predict) who and how is anyone to repair the breach in the wall? That wall needs magic to stand and endure.

This is my thought too: IF magic is obliterated, what is the point of the wall? Are direwolves, dragons, and the Others considered magic? If so, and if magic is gone, why would there be a wall?

ETA: in the past few days (here and YouTube), I keep seeing a slightly different "leaked" ending. The one about Sansa being on the throne, Bran rebuilding the Wall, and Jon seeing a spiral in the North. It's weird that up until a few days ago, there were accepted leaked endings and now suddenly, we have a new one?

Edited May 15, 2019 by MadameKillerB

[QuinnM]

6 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

ETA: in the past few days (here and YouTube), I keep seeing a slightly different "leaked" ending. The one about Sansa being on the throne, Bran rebuilding the Wall, and Jon seeing a spiral in the North. It's weird that up until a few days ago, there were accepted leaked endings and now suddenly, we have a new one?

I know the the actors have been saying multiple endings were filmed.  Maybe this is where they were always going and the leaks were just people being fooled.

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, Stallion12 said:

I meant more like what happened with deadwood, especially if the outrage is that big.

Note that Deadwood only lasted a couple years and was probably canceled too soon, and Game of Thrones has gone on for eight seasons. I guess in 10 years they could drag everyone back for a movie. But as for now, the actors have said they're ready to move on and do different things, and you can't really blame them.

[QuinnM]

4 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Note that Deadwood only lasted a couple years and was probably canceled too soon, and Game of Thrones has gone on for eight seasons. I guess in 10 years they could drag everyone back for a movie. But as for now, the actors have said they're ready to move on and do different things, and you can't really blame them.

I did see that some of the fan sites were talking about crowd sourcing a better ending.  I just love the internet.

[ulkis]

I don't think Dany got mad because Jon simply wouldn't be her boyfriend. She sensed that he was afraid of her, and him not being enthusiastic made her even more worried he would lay claim to the throne. It wasn't "oh noes he doesn't like me."

22 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Note that Deadwood only lasted a couple years and was probably canceled too soon, and Game of Thrones has gone on for eight seasons. I guess in 10 years they could drag everyone back for a movie. But as for now, the actors have said they're ready to move on and do different things, and you can't really blame them.

Animated movie anyone?

[Brn2bwild]

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

ink Dany being cruel and ruthless is sexist. Are female characters supposed to not be evil? They should always be right? Smart? Brave? Courageous? They cannot be scared, or angry, or violent, or feminine or princess like?

Or the problem is because a fan favorite crossed that line, said fuck it all and unleashed hell?

One problem is that Dany alone was the one who consistently sought to (1) raise up women and (2) free people in chains and/or raise up the downtrodden.  Sansa didn't.  Arya didn't.  Cersei certainly didn't.  Jon didn't.  Tyrion didn't.  Nor did Robb, Stannis, Theon, etc., etc.  Only Dany. 

But now the one person who sought to raise people up was made to do such a horrific thing that no one will be inspired by her message from earlier seasons of throwing off the chains, which was a worthwhile message.

[Raachel2008]

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

But Dany, according to the show, went crazy because the North didn't immediately give her adoration on the Mysha level and further because Jon Snow won't be her boyfriend. Not the loss of Missandei or the dragons or the bulk of her armies, but because this just looks like Dany is in a snit because she isn't the prettiest girl in the seventh grade. No examination even of the issues with restoring deposed dynasties. Just basically Dany pouting and because she has a dragon her pouting includes the slaughter of innocents. That is what is sexist (not to mention plain bad) about the writing. 

Like I said, it is a very subtle line between crazy and evil, and for me, what I saw on screen, was Dany making a decision; she had agency, she knew what the bells meant, she could have stopped, she chose to rule by fear. She told Jon so. And I strongly disagree that the loss of her dragons or Missandei didn't meant anything, they did. Just look at her face when Missandei was killed. She was furious - as she should. 

The reasons for Dany deciding to unleash all her power and rule by fear were on screen. She always wanted the throne, her most important goal was to get the throne and rule. Since she was barren and thought she was the last Targaryen, it was not even about restoring the Targaryens, but putting one last Targaryen on throne. Her whole identity was forged primarily on that and bang! She is not the rightful heir of the Iron Throne, but the spare. Two of her "children" are dead, her "BFFs' Jorah and Missandei are dead. 

And yes, it was pretty clear people wouldn't give her Mysha levels of adoration, which was told to her more than once by every single hand/advisor she had. And Jon didn't want to be with her because she is his aunt.

All of those reasons, add something to her final decision to burn King's Landing - I personally think that Jon not wanting to be with romantically anymore is the less important in the *short term*. I agree that it could have been better written, better developped, etc. But I don't sell Dany so short that I think she was pictured as snotty jealous brat. She was portrayed as a conqueror who decided to conquer and show how she was going to rule. In a way, it was sort of empowering. Had they done the exactly same thing to a male character nobody would be calling it sexism.

Anyway, that is my point.

Edited May 15, 2019 by Raachel2008

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Pictures for 8x6, though nothing really new: https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/15/game-thrones-final-episode-photos/?utm_content=link&utm_term=BF9B19D4-773B-11E9-A2B8-11D0984234C2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_ew&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true

[onyxrose81]

53 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I really don't think Sansa cares that much. All she wants is to be left alone to rule the North. Also, if nothing else, the last episode showed that Jon would be a crappy King. His own forces didn't listen to him and went about unleashing their rage on the women and children of KL. While it did appear that at least the Unsullied and Dothraki only attacked men (but I could be wrong). 

Say what you want about Dany but her people do listen to her. As soon as Grey Worm knew she wasn't relenting he followed her lead. 

I don't think she'd renege if she actually ruled (and that's looking doubtful). That's why I'll never understand why instead of being a snot, Sansa didn't try to negotiate for Northern Independence. Everyone wants to proclaim that she's so smart, well if she were so smart, she would have seen that what Dany wanted was to be loved and appreciated and she would have flattered the fuck out of her to get what she wanted - not approach her with hostility. How Sansa handled her approach to Dany was enough to convince me that all the talk about Sansa being so smart was just BS. 

Your last paragraph is so completely true.  I don't care how many times people try to convince me otherwise, how Sansa acted was stupid.  She was outright hostile when the North needed her help.  Even Arya managed to get that.  Yara had things Dany needed in order to negotiate...her ships.  The North had nothing on offer except a promise to bend the knee, which Jon gave (and that should have put Northern independence to rest, I don't know why Sansa kept on because on what authority did she have to keep banging on about that?).   Flattery will get you everywhere, the Tyrells knew that well.  I miss them.  

This season was such a damn letdown.  I've been posting less and less (how is that even possible since I don't post that much) because I just can't wrap my head around this season.  The crap with Dany aside, Jon is basically the most expensive extra ever, Bran is probably still staring at the heart tree, we have to follow Arya and some randoms apparently because reason, Cersei is humanized and gets to die embraced by her brother lover...Tyrion is an actual traitor and will be rewarded for it...I can't take it.  

Edited May 15, 2019 by onyxrose81

[Stallion12]

47 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

Note that Deadwood only lasted a couple years and was probably canceled too soon, and Game of Thrones has gone on for eight seasons. I guess in 10 years they could drag everyone back for a movie. But as for now, the actors have said they're ready to move on and do different things, and you can't really blame them.

I don't blame them at all btw, but with the upcoming outrage, I can't see HBO doing nothing. Unless the finale is fine real well, but I list faith and that outline is terrible.  Martin would set it up better no doubt. 

[screamin]

2 hours ago, Jextella said:

It makes sense to me that Dany should live and rule.  She's got more military might than all the rest at this point.

There's the Vale. Though of course, I doubt Sansa has the know-how to tell the Vale how to duplicate Cersei's patented anti-dragon cross-bow herself, probably the general description of 'huge motherfuckin' crossbow' is spreading in the wake of the KL disaster. Though it seemed ineffective in the battle of KL, Sansa knows it DID work well at least once.

The main issue is that Dany has no trusted spymaster any more, nor anyone suitable for the position she can trust enough to hire. She can't sit on Drogon 24/7, and Grey Worm can only protect her from oncoming soldiers. Unless she wants to live a complete recluse in a fortress like Aerys the Mad, she's got to take the risk of letting people in who may or may not be trustworthy.

As for Jon - I really don't think he's a good enough liar to talk Dany into the idea that he's totes okay with everything she's done, along with Sansa's probable execution, let's get it on! Somehow I think he'll go for Drogon, using his dragon whisperer talent to...I don't know, make him sit still while he stabs him in a vulnerable spot with his dragonsteel sword? Seems unlikely, but not as unlikely as Dany falling for Jon's story of how her incinerating cities makes him horny.

Edited May 15, 2019 by screamin

[stagmania]

1 hour ago, kittykat said:

She also promised Yara in 6.9 that the Iron Islands would rule as an independent kingdom on the grounds that they discontinued the reaving and raping.  Dany will probably renege and make Yara bend the knee but I don't expect the other stuff to come up.

Also on the grounds that the Iron Islands would help Dany take Westeros, which they super didn't. They got her across the sea, but from there they got immediately taken out by Euron, and when Yara was recovered she went back to the Islands instead of reporting to Dany and getting back in the fight. Dany would be within her rights to renege, I'd think. But I'm not hopeful we'll see Yara again at all.

1 hour ago, MadameKillerB said:

This is my thought too: IF magic is obliterated, what is the point of the wall? Are direwolves, dragons, and the Others considered magic? If so, and if magic is gone, why would there be a wall?

ETA: in the past few days (here and YouTube), I keep seeing a slightly different "leaked" ending. The one about Sansa being on the throne, Bran rebuilding the Wall, and Jon seeing a spiral in the North. It's weird that up until a few days ago, there were accepted leaked endings and now suddenly, we have a new one?

Sansa on the throne makes zero sense, but hey, nothing does anymore so I can believe it.

[Stallion12]

11 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Also on the grounds that the Iron Islands would help Dany take Westeros, which they super didn't. They got her across the sea, but from there they got immediately taken out by Euron, and when Yara was recovered she went back to the Islands instead of reporting to Dany and getting back in the fight. Dany would be within her rights to renege, I'd think. But I'm not hopeful we'll see Yara again at all.

Sansa on the throne makes zero sense, but hey, nothing does anymore so I can believe it.

Both suck, but at least sansas more developed. 

[Soup333]

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Yes, women can be evil and power hungry and corrupt. I've already stated this other places in the thread. Yes, we've gotten clues before about Dany being willing to cut corners ethically. The Unsullied spring to mind. 

But Dany, according to the show, went crazy because the North didn't immediately give her adoration on the Mysha level and further because Jon Snow won't be her boyfriend. Not the loss of Missandei or the dragons or the bulk of her armies, but because this just looks like Dany is in a snit because she isn't the prettiest girl in the seventh grade. No examination even of the issues with restoring deposed dynasties. Just basically Dany pouting and because she has a dragon her pouting includes the slaughter of innocents. That is what is sexist (not to mention plain bad) about the writing. 

Yes. And let me just add the majority of people insisting Dany’s “madness” was all ordained have been men (IN MY EXPERIENCE). They saw it all from the very first scene. Bitch is cray. 🙄

It was badly written. Has nothing to do with her being a favorite. If Dany had been destined for this why wasn’t Emilia playing it that way this entire time? If this is how it was ALWAYS going to be shouldn’t the writers have clued her in so she could act a little off throughout the seasons? I don’t buy it. I never will. 

And I agree that no matter what the ending it is will be tropey, even though it seems the main concern in finishing this series was avoiding all expectations and “shocking” the audience. Well, guess what - sometimes fulfilling expectations can also be shocking and tragic, if well done. 

[Bianca Castafiore]

22 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Yes. And let me just add the majority of people insisting Dany’s “madness” was all ordained have been men (IN MY EXPERIENCE). They saw it all from the very first scene. Bitch is cray. 🙄

It was badly written. Has nothing to do with her being a favorite. If Dany had been destined for this why wasn’t Emilia playing it that way this entire time? If this is how it was ALWAYS going to be shouldn’t the writers have clued her in so she could act a little off throughout the seasons? I don’t buy it. I never will. 

And I agree that no matter what the ending it is will be tropey, even though it seems the main concern in finishing this series was avoiding all expectations and “shocking” the audience. Well, guess what - sometimes fulfilling expectations can also be shocking and tragic, if well done. 

I'm one of those people that always viewed Dany as a gray character with the possibility to turn mad, evil, call it whatever you want and I'm definitely a female, as the majority of my friends who watch the show and share the same opinion. But, as you said, everyone has different experiences and views the same things through different lenses .

The writting of the show has been questionable for many seasons now, so I quess I've accepted it and moved on. Obviously I'm the minority here, but I'm enjoying the season. Well, except episode 3. That was a major turning point and the beggining for all the complaints this season gets. I thought episode 5 was exceptional

/runs and hides

[bijoux]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Pictures for 8x6, though nothing really new: https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/15/game-thrones-final-episode-photos/?utm_content=link&utm_term=BF9B19D4-773B-11E9-A2B8-11D0984234C2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_ew&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true

They released all of two pictures? But I guess there we have Dany’s speech in multiple languages, post instead of pre-battle as has been speculated, and the moment Tyrion casts down his pin as he listens to it.

[Stallion12]

39 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Yes. And let me just add the majority of people insisting Dany’s “madness” was all ordained have been men (IN MY EXPERIENCE). They saw it all from the very first scene. Bitch is cray. 🙄

It was badly written. Has nothing to do with her being a favorite. If Dany had been destined for this why wasn’t Emilia playing it that way this entire time? If this is how it was ALWAYS going to be shouldn’t the writers have clued her in so she could act a little off throughout the seasons? I don’t buy it. I never will. 

And I agree that no matter what the ending it is will be tropey, even though it seems the main concern in finishing this series was avoiding all expectations and “shocking” the audience. Well, guess what - sometimes fulfilling expectations can also be shocking and tragic, if well done. 

That's my issue too, she was always brutal, but at the very least was an antihero. I could accept her being a Gillian, but they pushed she wasn't her father instead of pushing she was. 

[Bianca Castafiore]

4 minutes ago, bijoux said:

They released all of two pictures? But I guess there we have Dany’s speech in multiple languages, post instead of pre-battle as has been speculated, and the moment Tyrion casts down his pin as he listens to it.

That first image of Dany is really, really disturbing...

[Hana Chan]

17 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

That first image of Dany is really, really disturbing...

My first thought was that it reminded me of Triumph of the Will. And it's telling that we only see Unsullied and Dothraki troops there. I'm guessing that what little real support she had from Westerosi sources is gone.

She's not going to be a queen like this. She's going to remain a foreign occupier. 

[Bali]

I have a VERY different viewpoint (guess) about Ice and Fire. I don't think that Ice and Fire are 2 different things. I think Ice is Stark and Fire is Targeryn . JON IS ICE AND FIRE. This whole thing was supposed to be about him. But the D's blew it and now everyone is just guessing because they blew it.

[Soup333]

25 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I'm one of those people that always viewed Dany as a gray character with the possibility to turn mad, evil, call it whatever you want and I'm definitely a female, as the majority of my friends who watch the show and share the same opinion. But, as you said, everyone has different experiences and views the same things through different lenses .

The writting of the show has been questionable for many seasons now, so I quess I've accepted it and moved on. Obviously I'm the minority here, but I'm enjoying the season. Well, except episode 3. That was a major turning point and the beggining for all the complaints this season gets. I thought episode 5 was exceptional

/runs and hides

Possibility does not equal certainty. That’s my main problem with people saying viewers missed the signs. A mad father does not mean a child will also be mad. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, onyxrose81 said:

  The crap with Dany aside, Jon is basically the most expensive extra ever,

I wonder how Kit Harrington felt when he got the S8 scripts and realized 80% of his lines consisted of "You're my Kweeeeennnn!!!!" and "I don't want it!!!."

[Indi]

1 hour ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

Pictures for 8x6, though nothing really new: https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/15/game-thrones-final-episode-photos/?utm_content=link&utm_term=BF9B19D4-773B-11E9-A2B8-11D0984234C2&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=entertainmentweekly_ew&__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true

Are there even more Unsullied and Dothraki than before the battle? Do they multiply like wet gremlins?

[Bianca Castafiore]

3 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Possibility does not equal certainty. That’s my main problem with people saying viewers missed the signs. A mad father does not mean a child will also be mad. 

Who said anything about her father? And no, I wasn't certain but in several occassions during all these seasons I questioned her, felt really uncomfortable with her decisions and the thought of her turning "mad" crossed my mind. Obviously I'm not the only one. And yes, that was because of several signs on the show. So no, I'm not surprised or shocked about any of these. .

[Umbelina]

14 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

It’s not that I hate him. I don’t see him as anything like heroic. And I will take it up with the show thanks since that’s what we’re discussing. Don’t give a rats ass whether GRRM thinks it’s profound. It ain’t.

Who said Bronn was heroic?

Must be tough if you only like heroes.

[JennyMominFL]

15 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Who said anything about her father? And no, I wasn't certain but in several occassions during all these seasons I questioned her, felt really uncomfortable with her decisions and the thought of her turning "mad" crossed my mind. Obviously I'm not the only one. And yes, that was because of several signs on the show. So no, I'm not surprised or shocked about any of these. .

Ive been saying it since season 2 and I am a woman. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[stagmania]

This essay is excellent and brilliantly lays out the feminist conversation around the show’s female characters and the misogynistic undertones in both the show and the books. Highly recommended reading: https://dangerouscharacters.substack.com/p/who-wins-who-dies-game-of-thrones

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, MadameKillerB said:

This is my thought too: IF magic is obliterated, what is the point of the wall? Are direwolves, dragons, and the Others considered magic? If so, and if magic is gone, why would there be a wall?

ETA: in the past few days (here and YouTube), I keep seeing a slightly different "leaked" ending. The one about Sansa being on the throne, Bran rebuilding the Wall, and Jon seeing a spiral in the North. It's weird that up until a few days ago, there were accepted leaked endings and now suddenly, we have a new one?

There is no reason to assume direwolves are magic. They once existed on earth. The starks might lose the ability to warg. 

They shot more than one ending. Depending on which crew you were on you’d have something different to leak. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Affogato

[Wouter]

4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Yes, women can be evil and power hungry and corrupt. I've already stated this other places in the thread. Yes, we've gotten clues before about Dany being willing to cut corners ethically. The Unsullied spring to mind. 

But Dany, according to the show, went crazy because the North didn't immediately give her adoration on the Mysha level and further because Jon Snow won't be her boyfriend.

4 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

Dany woke the dragon within her and KL burned. I'm still not sure why anyone is supposed to be surprised about this.

I don't think D&D came up with the basic plot - Dany goed mad/is consumed by power and torches KL - that was very probably from GRRM's planned ending. It's clear that the show has been hinting at this for a long time (the dragon shadown over KL being the most blatant), and it isn't like TV writers to plan that long in advance. The simplest explanation is that this was Martin's ending, in broad strokes.

But, GRRM may have taken another route to get there if he would actually write the books.

For one thing, there is (f)Aegon who is, from Dany's POV, an impostor. He could sour Dany on male "relatives" with dubious claims, not too mention that the fighting against him (which I assume would happen sooner or later) will leave scars. Maybe even a dragon duel, should (f)Aegon get his hands on one of hers, instead of one dragon being lost to the Others.

Another thing is that Dany could make good on her semi-usual threats to burn down cities, in one of the confrontations in Essos (Qarth, Volantis, Pentos,... one of them might chance to resist Dany and her antislavery stance for a bit too long), or at least incite a very bloody revolt or Dothraki invasion in one of them.

The combination of "dance of dragons" and a relatively close Essosi city (partially) in ruins could establish Dany's reputation throughout Westeros in ways that the show didn't earn, because they would have reason to be afraid. 

And there also those who may plot against her, like the supposed clique of Maesters against dragons as well as Braavos and the Iron Bank (the latter of which is happening in the show, too), and even the faceless men. Sabotage from those groups could help make Dany paranoid.

[WindyNights]

31 minutes ago, Bali said:

I have a VERY different viewpoint (guess) about Ice and Fire. I don't think that Ice and Fire are 2 different things. I think Ice is Stark and Fire is Targeryn . JON IS ICE AND FIRE. This whole thing was supposed to be about him. But the D's blew it and now everyone is just guessing because they blew it.

Tbh, I think the way it is now, the story is really about Bran ascending to godhood and kingship while everyone kills each other for the throne. He’s the central character but you’re not supposed to realize that until the end 

Jon and Dany are just a more hardcore version of Robb and Ned Stark.

[Soup333]

26 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Who said anything about her father? And no, I wasn't certain but in several occassions during all these seasons I questioned her, felt really uncomfortable with her decisions and the thought of her turning "mad" crossed my mind. Obviously I'm not the only one. And yes, that was because of several signs on the show. So no, I'm not surprised or shocked about any of these. .

Is her father not relevant to the discussion? 

20 minutes ago, stagmania said:

This essay is excellent and brilliantly lays out the feminist conversation around the show’s female characters and the misogynistic undertones in both the show and the books. Highly recommended reading: https://dangerouscharacters.substack.com/p/who-wins-who-dies-game-of-thrones

Thanks for this. 

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

One problem is that Dany alone was the one who consistently sought to (1) raise up women and (2) free people in chains and/or raise up the downtrodden.  Sansa didn't.  Arya didn't.  Cersei certainly didn't.  Jon didn't.  Tyrion didn't.  Nor did Robb, Stannis, Theon, etc., etc.  Only Dany. 

But now the one person who sought to raise people up was made to do such a horrific thing that no one will be inspired by her message from earlier seasons of throwing off the chains, which was a worthwhile message.

Tyrion asked Dany why not just stay in mereen? She was doing so much good there. As fucked up as her story is, Dany didn't have to go after the Iron throne and she had plenty of power and inspiration where she was at.

Im still paying attention to that Tyrion Sansa relationship. Should've been resolved in the crypts with the "you were the best of them."  The fact that they kept in his kissing her hand and took out the wight fight, is eye opening to say the least. Definitely paying attention to that power couple and Arya returning to winterfell to get married to Gendry who gives up his claim ( if he even has one at the end). Whether Jon takes the black or just lives up North with the wildlings,  doesn't matter.  But we shall see I reckon.

[Bianca Castafiore]

3 minutes ago, Soup333 said:

Is her father not relevant to the discussion? 

I don't think I implied in my post that Dany's genes are the only reason she is who she is.

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

Who said anything about her father? And no, I wasn't certain but in several occassions during all these seasons I questioned her, felt really uncomfortable with her decisions and the thought of her turning "mad" crossed my mind.

I did not think (and I still don't think) 'mad' exactly. I think she always had a big streak of exceptionalism - the rules don't apply the same way to her, because of her heritage and her destiny. She had a kind heart and empathy for the suffering, but was okay with the idea of Drogo invading and laying waste to the pacifist Lamb Men's land, and her deciding to stop the visibly ugly rape and enslavement consequences was her halfway measure to salve her conscience for what she'd made up her mind was necessary for the conquest to achieve her ends. It was her destiny, and she would free the slaves from now on, so the collateral damage she wreaked on the way was righteous. Her streak of successes strengthened the conviction she was both right and destined. She was capable of great kindness to all those who agreed with her own view of herself. Initially, those who didn't agree, she could outfight with her dragons.

She had real trouble once she finally got to Westeros, to her supposed destiny, and ran into  those who didn't recognize her destiny, that she couldn't just burn where they stood but had to be diplomatic with.

Sansa tested her. I agree, Sansa was rude, she was "Northern" in her impudence in Council, she should have been publicly rebuked as she had publicly been impudent. At the same time, Sansa was the most powerful lord of Dany's newly conquered territory, and she was voicing valid concerns that were concerns of the whole North. Her impudence was nothing unusual for that council meeting or for the way the North lords expressed themselves to their king ever since they got one. It was Dany's responsibility as queen to address the concerns as well as throw her authority and weight around. She ignored the concerns, and made a truly witty wisecrack that was a death threat about the giant deadly dragons that she'd already seen were terrifying to the Northerners. It was not a good sign, reinforced later when she repeated the threat to Jon more clearly, without addressing the concerns. Jon himself worsened the issue by becoming a passive doormat and turning a deaf ear to the threats, instead of trying to be a partner in helping Dany to adapt, and ignoring the issues with Dany's demand to leave WF with the wounded men and dragons just because Sansa recommended to stay awhile to heal.

I do agree that the signs were vague and could have been much more clearly expressed by the writers. They weren't signs of madness, though - more hubris, which has finally taken her too far.

Edited May 15, 2019 by screamin

[Soup333]

7 minutes ago, Bianca Castafiore said:

I don't think I implied in my post that Dany's genes are the only reason she is who she is.

No, you did not. But if there was no Mad King and no Targaryen curse, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion. 

The problem isn’t the what, it’s the how. Dany succumbing to her family’s supposed inescapable madness is fine if this is the route we must take. It’s the execution that is unbelievable. 

Saying the signs were always there because of her actions is retconning to me because she could have just as easily NOT lost her shit. Her temper and impulsiveness (as Tyrion put it) could have been just that. 

[ShellsandCheese]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

My first thought was that it reminded me of Triumph of the Will. And it's telling that we only see Unsullied and Dothraki troops there. I'm guessing that what little real support she had from Westerosi sources is gone.

She's not going to be a queen like this. She's going to remain a foreign occupier. 

The Northern forces were more than happy to take part in the mayhem. They aren't exactly angels.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[screamin]

1 minute ago, ShellsandCheese said:

The Northern forces were more than happy to take part in the mayhem. There are no angels. 

Jon's their CO. If he's not happy, they're not happy (and if they are, he'll skewer 'em).

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, Hana Chan said:

My first thought was that it reminded me of Triumph of the Will.

Absolutely, even the same angles. 

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

This essay is excellent and brilliantly lays out the feminist conversation around the show’s female characters and the misogynistic undertones in both the show and the books. Highly recommended reading: https://dangerouscharacters.substack.com/p/who-wins-who-dies-game-of-thrones

"What the mad-Daenerys apologists often seem to want is something different. They don’t just want to prove that some female leaders are bad and corrupt, they want to prove that power can only be corrupting for women. Plenty of men, on the right and left, have assured me that I only care about the misogyny because I don’t understand foreign policy, or that by even seeking a queenship, Daenerys proved herself to be a bad, selfish, power-mad person, and only awful people would root for her. That screeching — see? See? You stupid women wanted your feminist princess and she’s evil!!!!"

Eh, but the show showed in several levels, how power or the chance of seizing the power, and no matter how much, corrupted some men: Robert, Theon, Allisair Thorne, Viserys, the High Sparrow, etc - Ramsay and Joffrey are a whole different story. And how some of the women with power, like Olenna, Sansa, Margaery, Ellaria were not corrupted by power, though power, no matter how much, gave some of them and other women the means to make some questionable decisions that I wouldn't call exactly corrupted by power.

And I also feel sorry for the author being surrounded by such dicks, because the men who watch the show with me are either "damm, I wanted her to rule", or "power corrupts everyone", or "whoa, it takes a lot of guts to just do what she did". 

But thanks for the link. She has a very interesting view on the rape on the show, and how the women wanted to have power to be themselves. I will never agree that Dany was just "sad and her dad was mad", for me thinking process was other.

Also, Dany was never a more than competent military strategist. She was ok at best (same goes for more than half of the cast).

40 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

The Northern forces were more than happy to take part in the mayhem. They aren't exactly angels.

Not all of the Northern forces.

38 minutes ago, screamin said:

Jon's their CO. If he's not happy, they're not happy (and if they are, he'll skewer 'em).

But they weren't exactly following Jon when chaos erupted, were them? They were following Grey Worm. 

Edited May 15, 2019 by Raachel2008

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

Tyrion asked Dany why not just stay in mereen? She was doing so much good there. As fucked up as her story is, Dany didn't have to go after the Iron throne and she had plenty of power and inspiration where she was at.

Im still paying attention to that Tyrion Sansa relationship. Should've been resolved in the crypts with the "you were the best of them."  The fact that they kept in his kissing her hand and took out the wight fight, is eye opening to say the least. Definitely paying attention to that power couple and Arya returning to winterfell to get married to Gendry who gives up his claim ( if he even has one at the end). Whether Jon takes the black or just lives up North with the wildlings,  doesn't matter.  But we shall see I reckon.

Here’s to Arya becoming the new nights watch sword trainer. 

[Constantinople]

57 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

The Northern forces were more than happy to take part in the mayhem. They aren't exactly angels.

55 minutes ago, screamin said:

Jon's their CO. If he's not happy, they're not happy (and if they are, he'll skewer 'em).

Robb was their CO when Brienne killed 3 of them for hanging the tavern girls with the sign "They lay with Lions"

[Stallion12]

23 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Robb was their CO when Brienne killed 3 of them for hanging the tavern girls with the sign "They lay with Lions"

I forgot about that. 

Btw is it confirmed multiple endings exist? I know that troll Simon said there were, but he got episode 5 wrong .

[screamin]

30 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Robb was their CO when Brienne killed 3 of them for hanging the tavern girls with the sign "They lay with Lions"

Good point. But do we think Robb witnessed and condoned that? We're discussing Jon's level of enthusiasm in the battle and its aftermath for rape and pillage. We saw reject it in no uncertain terms when he witnessed it, and order his men to disengage instead of marching forward. No doubt not all obeyed him, but I don't think we witnessed an all-out Northern mutiny enthusiastically embracing Dany's fiery change of heart.

[chrisvee]

15 hours ago, anamika said:

https://ew.com/tv/2019/05/12/game-thrones-cersei-kings-landing-battle-interview/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app

I remember Emilia Clarke giving an interview on how this season was an exploration of power and how Cersei had lost everything because she desired power and whether Dany really wanted that. And we never got any of that on the show. There was no exploration of power. Dany just went mad after hearing bells.

I remember David and Dan talking about an interesting scene coming up between Jon and Cersei this season in their DVD commentary. And that did not happen. No Cersei miscarriage as well.

I guess whatever Kit and possibly Emilia shot in Dubrovnik is next episode.

Lena confirms that Jaime and Cersei really loved each other till the very end and that Brienne was just a temporary side fling for Jaime to realize that the only person he truly loved is Cersei.

this just makes me want to vomit

[Eyes High]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Im still paying attention to that Tyrion Sansa relationship. Should've been resolved in the crypts with the "you were the best of them."  The fact that they kept in his kissing her hand and took out the wight fight, is eye opening to say the least.

Not only that, but it seems like the Tyrion/Sansa long look and hand kiss moment was the entire point of that whole sequence in the crypts. Everything else (Varys, Missandei, Gilly, mass chaos, etc.) was just window dressing. Tyrion didn't even need to be down there in the first place! Even the actual wight fighting Tyrion and Sansa did wound up on the cutting room floor, as you said. That long look and hand kiss were the point. The writers locked Sansa and Tyrion up in an enclosed space together, got Tyrion really drunk, and threw wights at them for long enough so that they could get past their bullshit and baggage for five fucking seconds and have a genuine moment of connection.

Of course, in 8x04, Sansa was back to being curt and dismissive, and it was as if the whole hand kiss never happened (although Tyrion catching Sansa looking at him after Dany confirmed that legitimizing Gendry was a power move was very interesting). Still, the relationship feels unresolved, and we never got to see a proper goodbye between the characters even though Tyrion was heading south indefinitely (unlike with Jon/Sam). Tyrion and Sansa have had multiple scenes together in Season 8 (or scenes concerning each other like Sansa defending Tyrion to Dany in 8x02 and Tyrion defending Sansa to Dany in 8x05). The other (not necessarily romantic) relationships that got similar attention in S8 were definitively "resolved," if not always in warm and fuzzy fashion (Jaime dumping Brienne, Tyrion telling Jaime that he was the only one he had as a child, Arya turning down Gendry, Sam telling Jon that he was the best friend he ever had, Beric sacrificing himself for Arya, Sandor sweetly warning Arya off a life of revenge, etc.). So one way or another, Sansa and Tyrion's relationship will be resolved, whether Tyrion grants her an annulment or they get back together or Sansa tells him to fuck off once and for all or what have you. Hopefully it will fall towards the warm and fuzzy end of the spectrum as opposed to the brutal and heartbreaking end, but we'll have to see.

Edited May 16, 2019 by Eyes High

[aprilbabe]

More spoiler from freefolk, from a person who correctly spoiled ep 5. I hate it. And unless there some parts missing it doesn't look seem like an hour worth of an episode. So really Drogon really just flys away with Danys body and that's it. So stupid.

May 16th Updates

Jon, Davos and Tyrion are walking through the aftermath of Kings Landing. Tyrion walks through what's left of the castle and sees Jaime's hand so he starts to uncover the rubble and he confirms both Cersei and Jaime are dead. They find Grey Worm and his men they have Lannister Soldiers trapped and they're about to kill them. Jon trys to tells Grey Worm to stop. Grey Worm tells Jon that its the queens orders. Then they cut to Dany giving a speech pretty much saying how she freed the people from Kings Landing and the new goal is freeing the rest of the world. Dany turns to Tyrion and tells him he committed treason. Tyrion tells her that she killed thousands of innocent people and he takes off the hands pin and throws it. Dany sends him to prison.

Jon goes to see her and she sitting on the Iron throne alone and John tells her that she needs to stop being a crazy bitch and that Grey Worm killed the Lannisters army from the previous scene. Dany tells Jon that she's doing it for the people. Jon pretends to understand and tricks her. When her guard is down he stabs her. Drogon comes and is standing over her body and he burns or melts the Iron throne and carries her away.

Grey Worm has Tyrion and Jon as his prisoners. The *council is (led by Sansa) tells Grey Worm to release Jon back to them but he refuses. That's when Tyrion says that the new King or Queen should decide what happens to Jon. Sam suggest for a democratic vote for the new king. Tyrion calls that idea stupid. The council votes and decide Bran Should be the King. Bran picks Tyrion as his hand.

Tyrion tells Jon that his punishment is going back to the wall and join the Knights Watch. Grey Worm accepts Jons punishment. He doesn't bend the knee leaves with his troops and Dothraki on ships to go free Slave cities. They show Tyrion leading the council. Jon says goodbye to Sansa and Arya. Arya tells them she isn't going back home. She's going to explore whatever is west of Westeros because that's where no one has been.

The final scene is a Closing montage. You see Arya on a ship, Sansa ruling Winterfell and Jon doesnt stay at the wall he reunites with Tormund and Ghost.

*Council Members: Samwell Tarly the Grand Maester, Davos Seaworth Master of ships, Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden, Brienne (not sure) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Yara Greyjoy Lord of Iron Islands, Robin Arryn Lord of Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, Gendry Baratheon Lord of Storm's End, Yohn Royce Lord of Runestone, Hound doesn't get mentioned., Podrick is wheeling around Bran and he protects him.

Ellaria Sand doesn't get mentioned (i asked because she's alive). Sam mentions that they seen Drogon in some location but aren't sure. Bran just says, "ill look for him" They don't have a Master of Laws and Whisperers. Tyrion is looking for the right people to fill those spots. They don't clarify what Bran did when he was in warg during The Long Night. Did i forget to mention the most important detail about this entire episode? our good boy gets a pat from Jon.

[ShellsandCheese]

5 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

More spoiler from freefolk, from a person who correctly spoiled ep 5. I hate it. And unless there some parts missing it doesn't look seem like an hour worth of an episode. So really Drogon really just flys away with Danys body and that's it. So stupid.

May 16th Updates

Jon, Davos and Tyrion are walking through the aftermath of Kings Landing. Tyrion walks through what's left of the castle and sees Jaime's hand so he starts to uncover the rubble and he confirms both Cersei and Jaime are dead. They find Grey Worm and his men they have Lannister Soldiers trapped and they're about to kill them. Jon trys to tells Grey Worm to stop. Grey Worm tells Jon that its the queens orders. Then they cut to Dany giving a speech pretty much saying how she freed the people from Kings Landing and the new goal is freeing the rest of the world. Dany turns to Tyrion and tells him he committed treason. Tyrion tells her that she killed thousands of innocent people and he takes off the hands pin and throws it. Dany sends him to prison.

Jon goes to see her and she sitting on the Iron throne alone and John tells her that she needs to stop being a crazy bitch and that Grey Worm killed the Lannisters army from the previous scene. Dany tells Jon that she's doing it for the people. Jon pretends to understand and tricks her. When her guard is down he stabs her. Drogon comes and is standing over her body and he burns or melts the Iron throne and carries her away.

Grey Worm has Tyrion and Jon as his prisoners. The *council is (led by Sansa) tells Grey Worm to release Jon back to them but he refuses. That's when Tyrion says that the new King or Queen should decide what happens to Jon. Sam suggest for a democratic vote for the new king. Tyrion calls that idea stupid. The council votes and decide Bran Should be the King. Bran picks Tyrion as his hand.

Tyrion tells Jon that his punishment is going back to the wall and join the Knights Watch. Grey Worm accepts Jons punishment. He doesn't bend the knee leaves with his troops and Dothraki on ships to go free Slave cities. They show Tyrion leading the council. Jon says goodbye to Sansa and Arya. Arya tells them she isn't going back home. She's going to explore whatever is west of Westeros because that's where no one has been.

The final scene is a Closing montage. You see Arya on a ship, Sansa ruling Winterfell and Jon doesnt stay at the wall he reunites with Tormund and Ghost.

*Council Members: Samwell Tarly the Grand Maester, Davos Seaworth Master of ships, Bronn Master of Coin and High Garden, Brienne (not sure) Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, Yara Greyjoy Lord of Iron Islands, Robin Arryn Lord of Kingdom of the Mountain and the Vale, Gendry Baratheon Lord of Storm's End, Yohn Royce Lord of Runestone, Hound doesn't get mentioned., Podrick is wheeling around Bran and he protects him.

Ellaria Sand doesn't get mentioned (i asked because she's alive). Sam mentions that they seen Drogon in some location but aren't sure. Bran just says, "ill look for him" They don't have a Master of Laws and Whisperers. Tyrion is looking for the right people to fill those spots. They don't clarify what Bran did when he was in warg during The Long Night. Did i forget to mention the most important detail about this entire episode? our good boy gets a pat from Jon.

That sounds dumb as fuck - which probably means it’s true. 🤷🏽‍♀️😂

I’m sorry but it bugs me that Tyrion would be rewarded for his stupidity and why would these random group of people decide that Bran should be King. Dumb, dumb, dumb. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by ShellsandCheese

[lucindabelle]

Thanks. I will watch someday. Not Sunday. Kind of how I feel about the last two episodes of this is us, just hanging on my DVR.

so as suspected nothing about why rhaegar annulled his marriage.

bran. Ugh. Sansa. Ugh. At least drogon gets out alive.

not watching this pile of crap.

[CherryMalotte]

1 hour ago, Stallion12 said:

Btw is it confirmed multiple endings exist? I know that troll Simon said there were, but he got episode 5 wrong .

The actors themselves confirmed this in a few interviews.  

That's what I really want - is a dvd of nothing but the deleted scenes or the multiple endings.  Easter Egg that shit big time, then we can all pick our individual ending we like and be at least semi happy.

[Umbelina]

That's pretty much what was spoiled before, only with the welcome addition of women in the council.

I bet the Drogon scene is him on Valaris with the eggs he laid whilst away.

[aprilbabe]

3 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

That sounds dumb as fuck - which probably means it’s true. 🤷🏽‍♀️😂

I’m sorry but it bugs me that Tyrion would be rewarded for his stupidity and why would these random group of people decide that Bran should be King. Dumb, dumb, dumb. 

Right, Tyrion has been  a shitty hand and then gets rewarded by being hand.  

Nothings changed. They are right back where they started. they have a king and a council.