Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[Detective005]

I don't really understand many authors' choices. For example, the revelation of the true identity of jon for what is important? For what we've only seen to make dany become mad

[Umbelina]

6 hours ago, kieyra said:

First time spoiler reader.

Fucking Bronn on the council?

Okay, yeah, actor must be bros with the showrunners.

Whatever. 

It's been so overlooked, and that makes me sad, but Bronn gave one of the most important speeches in this show.  THIS is one of GRRM's huge themes/messages, but maybe because people seem to dislike the character on modern day societal norms, it's been mostly overlooked.  If you don't want to listen to the whole thing, the important and crucial "message" begins at 2:44.  Yes, Bronn's been great comedy, but he did have a greater purpose as a character than being a "bro."

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

Tyrion is the only remaining character on the show who cares at all about the people of Westeros, so yeah, he is the most qualified at this point. As I said upthread, the person who actually gives a shit about the people of Westeros is the one who should be ruling them.

I really like the idea of Tyrion getting to build a better world without having to kowtow to tyrants and abusive assholes as he has had to do for his whole life, surrounded by people he can truly rely on, finally free of his toxic family. Good for him. 

I don' think that is true.

Arya cares, half of the people on her list hurt/murdered/tortured innocent people not related to her, also, she's lived with all types, including the very poor during her travels, she understands.  Davos cares and more importantly, he's only recently been raised up the ladder, he began poor, and a smuggler.  Same thing can be said for Bronn, not only a very good judge of character, but someone who clawed his way up and out of the oppressed on his own.  Sansa cares, she cared about food for the people, not just new dresses for herself, ala Cersei. 

Bran/3ER cares most of all.  His whole job is the survival of the human species.  Now that may not be "caring" in the way we might traditionally think about it.  No tears, no emotion, removed from the individual desires, but his kind of caring is the most important thing Westeros needs right now.  An end to pointless, destructive wars, and a way for the masses to survive.  Dude also has skillz.  😉 

I don't like the deus ex machina of it all, but hell, this story is flooded with magic so it fits.

7 hours ago, Advance35 said:

I found it believable.  Dany's pathological need to be viewed as a savior is what sent her on a downward spiral.  The North/Westeros didn't love her just because.......and subsequent to that, we were shown who/what she is at her core.  A monster.   She didn't lose her mind, she just made the choice not to care about collateral damage.   She was aiming for Lannister soldiers but she didn't care if civilians (including women and children) were caught in the crossfire.

She's as big a monster as Cersei.

I don't feel blindsided and I think this was an organic turn for Dany.

Out of the remaining characters, he would definitely get my vote.  PD has been one of the pillars of the season and I can't wait to see what happens with him next week.  His scene with Varys was heartbreaking and his slow realization that Daenaerys is the monster Varys feared was sad.

I agree with all of this, however, because it's all been so rushed, and honestly so poorly written and executed?  I can't blame not book readers for being furious.  How much of that do they really get?  Because D&D failed in getting that across.

They failed for a few reasons other than just being bored and wanting it over with.  These are my top four reasons they failed.

1.  They wanted block-buster cinema over all, so they went for arty and WOW moments constantly.  Battles, dragons, fights, fires squeezed out dialogue and reflection.

2.  They completely failed on making all of those expensive battle scenes believable by having everyone do idiotic things.  In addition, they failed to explain BASICS such as Drogon is faster and bigger since he was never chained in dungeons, so yeah, he could evade scorpions, while injured and surprised Rhaegar who couldn't maneuver could not.  Still, Drogon should have attacked the ships from behind.  Spectacle more than logic.

3.  Rush rush rush, BIG ACTION, then almost no consequences or reflection or emotional beats or even motivation for our characters.  Lena (Cersei) and Tyrion get it constantly though, fuck everyone else.  Those were THEIR favorites, so they were fleshed out.  Very sad.

4.  They MADE Dany a hero for 7 seasons, and I think that's because woo!  Dragons!  Rape! Spectacle!  They crammed a very few little scenes in here and there about the dangers she posed, but for non book readers?  Not enough, not nearly enough.  They used Emilia poorly, especially in this season.  There should have been more talks and the relationship with Jon, which should have been pure gold?  Just lay there, in favor of all her titles and the nicely done relationship with Missandei.

6 hours ago, clack said:

I have no problem with how things end up -- the problem is with the speed at which events happen and characters (particularly Dany) evolve.

Ideally, the whole Night King/final showdown plot should have taken up a full 12 episode season. Then, a 12 episode final season would have room for Euron, the Golden Company, Dany's growing isolation and paranoia. etc.

Everything is feeling too rushed.

Exactly.  It feels rushed because it was.  They set an arbitrary number of episodes and then, last minute, decided to cram everything in.  It's been ages since we've seen the "small folk" or masses, way back with Arya in early seasons really.  Rat eating, a man killing his own daughter rather than allowing her to painfully starve to death, the abuse by Tywin's forces, torture, etc. 

They can't just plop the scenes of the citizens of Westeros being burned to death in the penultimate episode and call it a day on conveying the main theme GRRM's books have.  The idiocy and cruelty of war, the violence all for people that lust for or think they deserve to rule.

But they did, and they didn't have to.  This could have still been the final season, but have 10 or 11 episodes and let us SEE the people, and hear them, hell, we didn't even get to watch Jon tell his family one of the main secrets of the books!  Hell no!  More battle scenes!  More DRAGONS.  Fuck them.

6 hours ago, QuinnM said:

There was discussion and industry gossip about the number of episodes total, the number of seasons etc.  Was there a reason this had to be the last season?

D&D wanted to move on.  That's it.  They should have handed it off to someone who cared about this show a while ago.

5 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Its hard to say there's any 'romance' or 'love' now when Jon is rejecting Dany (I guess because she's his aunt - though he has never said - he's just moody and leaves).

BECAUSE THEY NEVER GAVE THEM THE SCENES!  😉  Why yes, I am shouting.  I completely reject the idea that the two actors couldn't have sold this love, if they were given the material to do it.  All the good writing goes to Cersei and Tyrion though. 

If Dany and Jon were in scenes together, it was almost always battles, on the backs of dragons, or in a cinematic landscape with little to know real bonding or even discussion.  It wasn't lack of "chemistry."  It was lack of dialogue and quiet scenes.

5 hours ago, YaddaYadda said:

Groot has more personality than Branch.

Westeros has had quite enough "personality" in the "leaders" thanks.

I'm sure they would be thrilled with less "personality" and more justice and food.

5 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Though some complain about them, Ms. Clarke is still clearly, very much a fan of D&D.  Though she thinks the book has closed on Daenaerys Targaryen, she was apparently adamant that she would never revive the character, unless D&D were involved.

http://houston.culturemap.com/news/entertainment/05-11-19-emilia-clarke-nathalie-emmanuel-comicpalooza-houston-game-of-thrones-season-8-beyonce/

Apparently she's very loyal to them.  The quote is at the bottom of the article under "What's Next."

Understandable.  This job has made her career, and set her up financially as well.  Why wouldn't she be grateful for that.  Also, from all reports, the cast is close, so it's also a wonderful new group of friends.

5 hours ago, Minneapple said:

But I cannot imagine how bad this would have gotten over 10 seasons. Look at all the complaining we're doing. Over 10 bloody seasons? It would have been a tragedy. It's not like the show SUDDENLY GOT BAD this season. 

The may not have needed ten seasons, but they needed showrunners who cared about more than spectacle and ending this thing.

4 hours ago, stagmania said:

The major reason it's so bad is that they tried to cram about 4 seasons worth of plot into 13 episodes, so no I don't think it would have been as bad as this. The real ideal would have been for D&D to hand off the show to writers who were still interested in it.

Yes, that, and they failed to build up to what they knew was the ending.  Dany kept getting almost nothing but a hero edit, and the citizens of Westeros have been ignored since they outgrew the books.  Dani and Jon's love was given almost no scenes of substance that had to do with more than dragons and war.

4 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Agreed. Even full seasons 7 and 8 would have give them more time to develop certain plots.

They chose Lena.  They chose DRAGONS.  They chose battles that would look great and win emmys.  Then they tried to cram everything the books are really about into a couple of episodes, with almost no real consequences or quiet moments of talking, crying, loving...when they had them?  They shone, in part because there were so few.

3 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I think Jon loves Dany. I just wish Emilia and Kit had better onscreen chemistry. I think they could have better sold "tragic romance" if they weren't a black hole of chemistry. 

I wonder if I'll have the motivation to go back and read through nearly 300(!) pages of this thread and see our reactions to spoilers and spoiled speculation. It's almost over. WE WERE SO INNOCENT IN THE BEGINNING.

I wish they had writing that allowed them to show the love and conflict.  They didn't.  That's not on the actors, that's on the showrunners.

3 hours ago, Night Person said:

RThe problem for me with Dany’s story arc is that her actions were SO over the top. I really don’t have an issue with her giving in to her dark side and committing acts that turn Jon and Tyrion against her.  If this is GRRM’s ending, D&D didn’t really have any other choice.

They could have had her torch the surrendering army and the Keep with Cersei inside. It would still have been morally horrifying to Jon and Tyrion because of the dishonor of killing a surrendering army and the loss of the innocent life when the Keep collapsed.  But Dany could have defended her actions by insisting that she would never be safe without destroying Cersei and her army. 

This would also have set up an even more difficult dilemma for Jon because there would be at least some justification for her actions.  As it is now, he shouldn’t have any qualms at all about killing her.

They went way too far by having her destroy the whole city and kill thousands of innocent people.  It just wasn’t believable. It totally felt to me like the primary goal was to shock the audience.  Plus all of the scenes of the dragon destroying the city got a little boring at the end.

This relationship, key to that side of the books, should have been allowed to BREATHE.  It should have been a fantastic story, full of heartbreak and joy, shock and conflicts.

Come on now, any decent writer could have given them amazing scenes to play.  They didn't need more CGI, they needed words and actions.  They didn't get them, not enough to flesh out this could have been great story, and certainly not enough to earn this ending.

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I think he was senting letters to Dorne, Riverrun, the Vale, etc trying to bring them to his plan of supporting Jon as king. 

Probably.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Umbelina
typos and clarity

[spaceghostess]

42 minutes ago, lucindabelle said:

So do we believe Jon kills dany and drogon flies away with her or is it Jon kills dany and she comes back to life or what? 

I find it hard to believe they won't find a way to kill Drogon. He represents not only a WMD, but Dany herself, and since she's been reduced to a homicidal dictator/madwoman, everything she stands for must be wiped out (show view, not mine). I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Jon killed Dany when Drogon wasn't around and then found a way--using the dragon's trust in him and possibly somebody manning a surviving ballista--to put him down as well. I know it hasn't been spoiled, but it easily travels the nihilistic road down which D&D have merrily skipped this season. 

I'm not angry at Jon as many are. I think he's been believably torn, but yes, he's also been rendered impotent in the most frustrating of ways. I have no issues with KH's acting, which also probably makes Show!Jon a little less bothersome for me. His not comforting Dany was, in some ways, pretty typical late-seasons Jon. He's been fixated on the fights at hand and unwilling/unable to discuss or process his feelings about Dany being his aunt or anything else. Surviving all of these horrifying battles seems to have shut him down emotionally. Of course, a real conversation or two with someone like Sam (before he left) or Davos or--god forbid!--Dany herself could have made some difference to how he's perceived, but apparently that didn't fit D&D's agenda of "All dialogue must be about (a) battles; (b) scheming; (c) birthrights (d) Isn't Dany acting weird/crazy/power mad?" I think Jon did still love Dany as of 8.05, but her being his relative makes him throw up in his mouth a little, and he's struggling unsucessfully to reconcile this conflict. He couldn't handle her emotions, much less his own--which absolutely makes him look crap, but also is kind of believable to me?

If the spoilers didn't point in another direction, I'd be entertaining the notion that Jon commits suicide after killing Dany. He'll have become, if not a queenslayer (since the birthright is his), a kinslayer; he'll have betrayed love for duty a second time and I could totally see him just wanting this shitty life over already.

Edited May 13, 2019 by spaceghostess

[AuntieMame]

Bran? Bran is the one who holds the Iron Throne after the rubble settles according to spoilers? That just feels odd and unearned, especially as the character seems practically dissociated much of the time as he is in all times at once. 

How I miss Tywin's musings to Tyrion after the Red Wedding about how much could be accomplished by mail and so cheaply from a tactical standpoint. That was trope busting television that examined human character and politics. This is just bad writing supporting spectacle at this point. Two of five episodes have been almost without dialogue and certainly without connection to character development. If Bran does end up on the throne it will be completely unearned and convoluted. I can't even with the sexism and the fact that none of these writers can write a woman with comprehensible motivations unless they first turn her into a faux man. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by AuntieMame

[ulkis]

18 minutes ago, Detective005 said:

I don't really understand many authors' choices. For example, the revelation of the true identity of jon for what is important? For what we've only seen to make dany become mad

Yeah. I was going to wait until next week to talk about this, but on the show, so far, it seems like it was pointless. Dany could have felt just as threatened by him if he were just King in the North and they could have accomplished this plot anyway. I blame Martin partially though for killing off most of the characters that would have cared about Jon's parentage.

[YaddaYadda]

11 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I blame Martin partially though for killing off most of the characters that would have cared about Jon's parentage.

Or the people who would care about Jon's parentage were not included in the show. 

The whole RLJ reveal was a massive dud.

[Umbelina]

12 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I find it hard to believe they won't find a way to kill Drogon. He represents not only a WMD, but Dany herself, and since she's been reduced to a homicidal dictator/madwoman, everything she stands for must be wiped out (show view, not mine). I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Jon killed Dany when Drogon wasn't around and then found a way--using the dragon's trust in him and possibly somebody manning surviving ballista--to put him down as well.

I hope not.

I still think there is a connection between dragons (fire) and the big bad of the far north (ice.)  If one exists, I think the other must, if one is dead, must the other perish?  No idea, and sadly, not a lot of hope that the showrunners handle this well.  They MAY though, because if there is a connection, I'm pretty sure GRRM told them.

Yes, yes, I know the children of the forest did it.  That doesn't mean the magic wasn't more complicated than we know so far.

16 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I'm not angry at Jon as many are. I think he's been believably torn, but yes, he's also been rendered impotent in the most infuriating of ways. I have no issues with KH's acting, which also probably makes Show!Jon a little less frustrating for me. His not comforting Dany was, in some ways, pretty typical late-seasons Jon. He's been fixated on the fights at hand and unwilling/unable to discuss or process his feelings about Dany being his aunt or anything else. Surviving all of these horrifying battles seems to have shut him down emotionally. Of course, a real conversation or two with someone like Sam (before he left) or Davos or--god forbid!--Dany herself could have made some difference to how he's perceived, but  apparently that didn't fit D&D's agenda of "All dialogue must be about (a) battles; (b) scheming; (c) birthrights (d) Isn't Dany acting weird/crazy/power mad?" I think Jon did still love Dany as of 8.05, but her being his relative makes him throw up in his mouth a little, and he's struggling unsucessfully to reconcile this conflict. He couldn't handle her emotions, much less his own--which absolutely makes him look crap, but also is kind of believable to me? 

If they had written probably THE MOST important characters (as far as the finale) even 1/4 as well as they have written scenes for Lena and Peter?

It could have been sold easily, and been a hell of a story, heartbreaking and real.

They traded that for speed and spectacles like fires, wars, dragons, scorpions, pirates!

SHAME on them.  SHAME!  SHAME!  SHAME! /septas

The actors could have delivered, but they weren't given the chance.  After all, have to get all those battles in, and Cersei!  And Tyrion! 

[ulkis]

Just now, YaddaYadda said:

Or the people who would care about Jon's parentage were not included in the show. 

The whole RLJ reveal was a massive dud.

I need a refresher  . . . would that be the other Aegon and Jon Connington? And Howland Reed? Anyone else I'm missing.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

Or the people who would care about Jon's parentage were not included in the show. 

The whole RLJ reveal was a massive dud

Because they rushed the whole damn thing.

Sansa and Arya would have cared.  Dany and Jon had so much conflict and emotions to play, not just the one scene where Dany begs him not to tell!

They sacrificed the incredible love and power story for nonsensical battles that made Tyrion look like a fool, and dragons.

They didn't give those characters a chance. 

Lena got hers though, and Peter got his.

[Chiny11]

So those behind the scenes pics of Kit with Lena were fake scenes? I see.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

A while back here in this thread I disagreed that Martin is much of a tropebreaker. But if Jon of the royal and secret heritage refuses the throne, it would probably be the biggest trope breaking stuff ever done in this series (including the books) and one of the biggest I can remember in all fiction.

Of course tropes exist for a reason. Breaking them simply for the sake of it is not good Storytelling. If it has some meaning behind it, it can be excellent, though.

With that being said: The leaks are all mixed up so I'm still not sure about the Bran-council. Someone eaked Jon kills Dany and from there many leaks that had JKD suddenly popped up. Not all of them have to be true. One of them mentioned that Bran had a vision about the return of Nightking. It didn't happen so far. Are you sure that the leak with Bran as god-king was a genuine leak or did it came from someone who jumped on the bandwaggon? 

Edited May 13, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[rmontro]

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I can't blame not book readers for being furious.  How much of that do they really get?  Because D&D failed in getting that across.

I've read the books, and I've read Fire and Blood besides.  It's not fair to say that the only people who are upset over Dany's treatment are the uninformed, because that is simply not true.  D&D is telling a rushed story, but I don't hold GRRM totally innocent either.  We haven't seen his version of these events yet.

Tolkien wrote a bittersweet ending to his book, but it was a satisfying ending.  When I finished The Lord of the Rings, I thought "Wow, that was the best book ever written" (the same response GRRM had, in fact).  But this ending is not satisfying.  Perhaps it is to you, but it clearly is not for a lot of us.  My reaction to closing this story so far is "Well, that sucked".  Which is a shame, since it had such a promising beginning.  

[Umbelina]

10 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I've read the books, and I've read Fire and Blood besides.  It's not fair to say that the only people who are upset over Dany's treatment are the uninformed, because that is simply not true.  D&D is telling a rushed story, but I don't hold GRRM totally innocent either.  We haven't seen his version of these events yet.

Tolkien wrote a bittersweet ending to his book, but it was a satisfying ending.  When I finished The Lord of the Rings, I thought "Wow, that was the best book ever written" (the same response GRRM had, in fact).  But this ending is not satisfying.  Perhaps it is to you, but it clearly is not for a lot of us.  My reaction to closing this story so far is "Well, that sucked".  Which is a shame, since it had such a promising beginning.  

GRRM was never going to write a cheery ending.

I'm not saying the only people upset are the uniformed.  I am saying they will have the hardest time understanding this, and I stand by that.

The showrunners didn't EARN Dany's descent into despair.  They (as I just said in her thread) gave her one good scene, the scene where she says "they love you more than me." 

Had they bothered to build that love story between Jon and Dany, had they not crammed so many losses on Dany all at once?  Had they let Emilia do more than facilitate their "blockbuster war and dragon scenes?"

I believe we would understand how all these losses drove her to the brink.  At least we would CARE about it more.  This rush job was a serious mistake.

I have no doubt at all GRRM will show and tell all of that beautifully and sadly. 

[domina89]

42 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

I find it hard to believe they won't find a way to kill Drogon. He represents not only a WMD, but Dany herself, and since she's been reduced to a homicidal dictator/madwoman, everything she stands for must be wiped out (show view, not mine). I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Jon killed Dany when Drogon wasn't around and then found a way--using the dragon's trust in him and possibly somebody manning a surviving ballista--to put him down as well. I know it hasn't been spoiled, but it easily travels the nihilistic road down which D&D have merrily skipped this season. 

I really hope he survives.  I would like there to be some semblance of hope that there's still magic and mystery left in the world or it will feel, as you say, completely nihilistic. 

[Raachel2008]

I think it all D&D's fault. They didn't want to do another season, they didn't want to do full seasons. And. They. Did. Not. Want. Someone. Else. In. Charge. They wanted their cake and they wanted to eat it, too.  I wonder what kind of contract they have/had with HBO that the folks paying the bills didn't have a say on that.

[ulkis]

Oh, I thought it was HBO who ordered the shortened seasons. Well, nevermind, they do suck that much.

[YaddaYadda]

32 minutes ago, ulkis said:

I need a refresher  . . . would that be the other Aegon and Jon Connington? And Howland Reed? Anyone else I'm missing.

House Dayne I think is a big one, but they didn't make it to the show. And I don't count Arthur's death as making it because the people who didn't read the books had no idea. 

Barristan Selmy would care, but they killed him off. Stannis would have cared too, but they killed him off. Jaime would likely care in the books, but on the show, his head head was stuck so far up Cersei's behind that nothing really registered with him.

(Also, let's not ruin Brienne's life further by having her be pregnant by him. Thanks!)

[Stallion12]

1 hour ago, AuntieMame said:

Bran? Bran is the one who holds the Iron Throne after the rubble settles according to spoilers? That just feels odd and unearned, especially as the character seems practically dissociated much of the time as he is in all times at once. 

How I miss Tywin's musings to Tyrion after the Red Wedding about how much could be accomplished by mail and so cheaply from a tactical standpoint. That was trope busting television that examined human character and politics. This is just bad writing supporting spectacle at this point. Two of five episodes have been almost without dialogue and certainly without connection to character development. If Bran does end up on the throne it will be completely unearned and convoluted. I can't even with the sexism and the fact that none of these writers can write a woman with comprehensible motivations unless they first turn her into a faux man. 

That's the  biggest thing, it's not built up. Not earned.  If tgey spent more time, perhaps showed the original as bloodraven, went into his backstory, and had bran do more than stare, maybe even help in the battle using ravens to coordinate,  it would work.

[Stallion12]

37 minutes ago, rmontro said:

I've read the books, and I've read Fire and Blood besides.  It's not fair to say that the only people who are upset over Dany's treatment are the uninformed, because that is simply not true.  D&D is telling a rushed story, but I don't hold GRRM totally innocent either.  We haven't seen his version of these events yet.

Tolkien wrote a bittersweet ending to his book, but it was a satisfying ending.  When I finished The Lord of the Rings, I thought "Wow, that was the best book ever written" (the same response GRRM had, in fact).  But this ending is not satisfying.  Perhaps it is to you, but it clearly is not for a lot of us.  My reaction to closing this story so far is "Well, that sucked".  Which is a shame, since it had such a promising beginning.  

Thank you, that's how I feel too. 

[AuntieMame]

4 minutes ago, Stallion12 said:

That's the  biggest thing, it's not built up. Not earned.  If tgey spent more time, perhaps showed the original as bloodraven, went into his backstory, and had bran do more than stare, maybe even help in the battle using ravens to coordinate,  it would work.

Having Bran do more than stare would be a really good start. Subsequent storytelling steps might include explaining the history and powers of the Three-Eyed Raven and how the knowledge and power of the 3ER might help or hinder the players in the game. As of now, Bran's entire arc has been pointless, especially if he ends as king. 

Edited May 13, 2019 by AuntieMame

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

Having Bran do more than stare would be a really good start. Subsequent storytelling steps might include explaining the history and powers of the Three-Eyed Raven and how the knowledge and power of the 3ER might help or hinder the players in the game. As of now, Bran's entire arc has been pointless, especially if he ends as king. 

There's gonna be a whooole lotta shit that ended up incredibly pointless to the overall plot. :side-eye at Littlefinger:

[Constantinople]

So will the epilogue be like the end of Animal House?

Senator and Mrs Tyrion Lannister

Arya Stark - Whereabouts Unknown

Samwell Tarly - Sensitivity Trainer, Encounter Groups of Cleveland, Inc.

[AuntieMame]

22 minutes ago, ulkis said:

There's gonna be a whooole lotta shit that ended up incredibly pointless to the overall plot. :side-eye at Littlefinger:

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was underwhelmed by the timing and manner of Littlefinger's death. The whole gotcha of it was telegraphed and tricksy (in the opinion of the writers) and it stopped any exploration of the sister's reunion. Yeah, I guess I'm really not liking these final seasons. I thought I'd be happy to get any kind of ending at all, but it seems a nonsensical ending isn't quite doing it. 

[Eyes High]

Nikolaj warned in a recent interview that there would be very few happy endings, but I dunno, it sounds like a number of characters make out all right. Sansa gets to run the North by herself as she wanted. Tyrion gets to rule and help build a better world. Sam ends up with Horn Hill, a great relationship and a family of his own. Gilly ends up with a good man she loves. Davos serves a king and a cause worth serving. Arya moves beyond her nihilistic focus on revenge. Jon ends up North where he was happiest with Ygritte and is reunited with Ghost. It’s not really all that bleak in my opinion, but we’ll have to see how it plays.

[Stallion12]

1 minute ago, Eyes High said:

Nikolaj warned in a recent interview that there would be very few happy endings, but I dunno, it sounds like a number of characters make out all right. Sansa gets to run the North by herself as she wanted. Tyrion gets to rule and help build a better world. Sam ends up with Horn Hill, a great relationship and a family of his own. Gilly ends up with a good man she loves. Davos serves a king and a cause worth serving. Arya moves beyond her nihilistic focus on revenge. Jon ends up North where he was happiest with Ygritte and is reunited with Ghost. It’s not really all that bleak in my opinion, but we’ll have to see how it plays.

It's how they get there that's so bad.

[ulkis]

5 minutes ago, AuntieMame said:

I'm glad that I'm not the only one who was underwhelmed by the timing and manner of Littlefinger's death. The whole gotcha of it was telegraphed and tricksy (in the opinion of the writers) and it stopped any exploration of the sister's reunion. Yeah, I guess I'm really not liking these final seasons. I thought I'd be happy to get any kind of ending at all, but it seems a nonsensical ending isn't quite doing it. 

Well, I was glad to get stuff like the Jon/Sansa reunion scene but yeah overall kind of a mess.

I thought Littlefinger made no sense after about season 2 and the actor was terrible in the role, imo.

[chrisvee]

10 hours ago, stagmania said:

So they're going for the Buffy/Angel tragedy - sacrificing his love to save the world. Except they've written the romance so poorly that it's not going to land. I don't feel sad about this, I just feel angry.

Remember a week ago when we all laughed ourselves silly at the idea that she went mad at the sound of bells? Turns out it's a totally fair read on the scene. 

THIS. The council of fan favorite bros is straight out of bad fanfiction. 

I guess the "sweet" part is that all the remaining Starks survive in some capacity. Pretty weak.

Jon's complete non reaction to learning Sansa had immediately betrayed his trust was so frustrating. And you're right, it does feel like the show artificially constrains characters from reacting reasonably to Sansa's manipulations. 

This is what's driving me nuts about Tyrion's arc and why his ending ultimately does not sit right with me. He's been wrong about everything and proven to be a terrible strategist for the last three seasons. Where are the consequences for that? 

plus he was going to let Cersei, Jaime, and their child go free so how long before Cersei started up another game of thrones?

[CherryMalotte]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Nope, I think it will be seeing Arya in the crowd.

Yeah, that's true too.  I rewatched this afternoon and Arya does look not only roughened up physically but mentally.  She'll give Jon an earful if she can get to him.

Edited May 13, 2019 by CherryMalotte
should not type during lunch

[Raachel2008]

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Nikolaj warned in a recent interview that there would be very few happy endings, but I dunno, it sounds like a number of characters make out all right. Sansa gets to run the North by herself as she wanted. Tyrion gets to rule and help build a better world. Sam ends up with Horn Hill, a great relationship and a family of his own. Gilly ends up with a good man she loves. Davos serves a king and a cause worth serving. Arya moves beyond her nihilistic focus on revenge. Jon ends up North where he was happiest with Ygritte and is reunited with Ghost. It’s not really all that bleak in my opinion, but we’ll have to see how it plays.

I don't see how this is a happy ending for Jon, really.

[Jextella]

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Nikolaj warned in a recent interview that there would be very few happy endings, but I dunno, it sounds like a number of characters make out all right.

Dany might go ballistic on Winterfell/Sansa as revenge for Jon turning on her.  And right now is the time to do it - she can get there via the dragon much faster than the others could by horse or ship.

Maybe someone sends a raven alerting Winterfell that Dany's coming and they set a trap for her.  

Yeah, the more I think of it, the more it would make sense for Dany to obliterate Winterfell or hold it and its people as ransom for what she wants.

I do hope we see Arya pull out the face trick one last time somehow.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, QuinnM said:

I also thought of CTE.  She got her melon bounced off a wall by one of the dead maybe a week ago?  

There was also a scene in last night's episode in which Arya puts her hand on her head.  She's was clearly in pain.  Then the white, saddleless horse at the end.  Who knows what here memory of the death and destruction will be.  

[Jextella]

Wasn't Bronn the one who designed the scorpion a few seasons ago?

Bronn is a dude-bro for sure, but in GRRM's world where characters are never 100% one way or another, Bronn is maybe the one who knows how to come up smelling like roses the most.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Jextella

[Umbelina]

If you listen to Bronn in that video, no.  He was much more than a "dude bro" he was the voice of GRRM at it's very best.

[Kabota]

I've been so frustrated with the rushed nature of these last 2 abbreviated seasons. Count me as another, unsure as to whether I'll care to ever rewatch much when it's all done.

As far as Bran being the king.... Isn't it either strongly implied or explicitly stated when he's training with the previous 3ER that he can't take an active part in making/changing history. He's just observing and absorbing? 

How does such a one rule as king? Or is that maybe the point -- he's just a place holder, while the council rules? And is that necessarily better? Or more of the same? 

Edited May 13, 2019 by Kabota

[Jextella]

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

If you listen to Bronn in that video, no.  He was much more than a "dude bro" he was the voice of GRRM at it's very best.

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  Bronn can be a dude-bro and wise at the same time.

[Kanner]

10 hours ago, stagmania said:

So they're going for the Buffy/Angel tragedy - sacrificing his love to save the world. Except they've written the romance so poorly that it's not going to land. I don't feel sad about this, I just feel angry.

Remember a week ago when we all laughed ourselves silly at the idea that she went mad at the sound of bells? Turns out it's a totally fair read on the scene. 

THIS. The council of fan favorite bros is straight out of bad fanfiction. 

I guess the "sweet" part is that all the remaining Starks survive in some capacity. Pretty weak.

Jon's complete non reaction to learning Sansa had immediately betrayed his trust was so frustrating. And you're right, it does feel like the show artificially constrains characters from reacting reasonably to Sansa's manipulations. 

This is what's driving me nuts about Tyrion's arc and why his ending ultimately does not sit right with me. He's been wrong about everything and proven to be a terrible strategist for the last three seasons. Where are the consequences for that? 

He does react. We have to be detectives now since they are showing us a Cliff Notes version of the show. When Varys says he knows what side Jon’s coin has landed, the quick expressions that move across is face clearly state “That F’ing B betrayed me”.  But that is all he gets. But who is he going to complain too. He is not going to sell his family out to Dany. Hopefully, next episode we get something. Famous last words  

This is why I want Sansa’s end to be her ruling the North but with no family with her. Her game playing would have driven them off.  She got what she wanted but look at the cost. 

[Stallion12]

15 minutes ago, Kabota said:

I've been so frustrated with the rushed nature of these last 2 abbreviated seasons. Count me as another, unsure as to whether I'll care to ever rewatch much when it's all done.

As far as Bran being the king.... Isn't it either strongly implied or explicitly stated when he's training with the previous 3ER that he can't take an active part in making/changing history. He's just observing and absorbing? 

How does such a one rule as king? Or is that maybe the point -- he's just a place holder, while the council rules? And is that necessarily better? Or more of the same? 

Just on the council is fine, it's him being king which makes no sense due to lack of buildup.

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Jextella said:

The two aren't mutually exclusive.  Bronn can be a dude-bro and wise at the same time.

Very true, but his entire EXISTENCE was to show what all these "nobles" descended from.  A bunch of bro-dude murderers that were good at rising out of the slums of being nobody.

[YaddaYadda]

19 minutes ago, Kanner said:

This is why I want Sansa’s end to be her ruling the North but with no family with her. Her game playing would have driven them off.  She got what she wanted but look at the cost. 

She has no use for her family, so she won't care.

[Kanner]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

She has no use for her family, so she won't care.

I was going to add that but thought it might be too harsh. Glad to know, I am not alone with this thought. 

[Oscirus]

Wouldn't Arya disappearing to parts unknown go against everything they just taught her  in the last episode. That part of the spoilers has to be hidden/off

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, Kanner said:

I was going to add that but thought it might be too harsh. Glad to know, I am not alone with this thought. 

It's not harsh. It's the truth. She never had any use for her family. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, YaddaYadda said:

It's not harsh. It's the truth. She never had any use for her family. 

Seriously?

She adored her brothers, and her mother and father.  When she finally escaped from Ramsey, she ran to Jon.  When Rickon was hostage and killed, she was sad, but she knew he was already dead, because she knew Ramsey, and she understood politics by then.  She bonded with Arya this season, and joined with her, worked out significant issues because they were sisters.

She loves her family, the dead and those still living.

[Jextella]

So Arya is fated to kill someone with brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes.  Walter Fry had brown eyes , the night king had blue eyes, and we are still left with green eyes,  Who remains who has green eyes?

Sansa, Arya herself, Dany and Tyrion have eyes that look greenish at times.

Edited May 14, 2019 by Jextella

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, Jextella said:

So Arya is fated to kill someone with brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes.  Walter Fry had brown eyes , the night king had blue eyes, and we are still left with green eyes,  Who remains who has green eyes?

Sansa and Arya herself have eyes that are greenish at times. Maybe Drogon.....

I'm sure one of the freys or one of her other victims  had green eyes. It was legit just a throwaway line repurposed to work for the Night King reveal.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Jextella said:

So Arya is fated to kill someone with brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes.  Walter Fry had brown eyes , the night king had blue eyes, and we are still left with green eyes,  Who remains who has green eyes?

Sansa and Arya herself have eyes that are greenish at times. Maybe Drogon.....

I think show Dany has green eyes, but that would be stupid.

Book Dany of course has purple eyes.

[JennyMominFL]

32 minutes ago, Jextella said:

So Arya is fated to kill someone with brown eyes, blue eyes, and green eyes.  Walter Fry had brown eyes , the night king had blue eyes, and we are still left with green eyes,  Who remains who has green eyes?

Sansa and Arya herself have eyes that are greenish at times. Maybe Drogon.....

TV Dany has green eyes

[stagmania]

3 hours ago, ulkis said:

Yeah. I was going to wait until next week to talk about this, but on the show, so far, it seems like it was pointless. Dany could have felt just as threatened by him if he were just King in the North and they could have accomplished this plot anyway. I blame Martin partially though for killing off most of the characters that would have cared about Jon's parentage.

Nothing that’s happened to Jon on the show since his death - the resurrection, the parentage reveal, his attempts in battle - has mattered. He’s like a ghost wandering through his own story, disconnected from any real consequences or narrative momentum. I imagine this is because the show has decided to forego all the prophecies and give the big moments that are clearly meant to be Jon’s to other characters for shock value. So yeah I don’t think this one is on GRRM.

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Having Bran do more than stare would be a really good start. Subsequent storytelling steps might include explaining the history and powers of the Three-Eyed Raven and how the knowledge and power of the 3ER might help or hinder the players in the game. As of now, Bran's entire arc has been pointless, especially if he ends as king. 

Can’t wait for the King Bran memes. The finale is going to suck but at least we’ll have fun. 

[dirtypop90]

55 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Seriously?

She adored her brothers, and her mother and father.  When she finally escaped from Ramsey, she ran to Jon.  When Rickon was hostage and killed, she was sad, but she knew he was already dead, because she knew Ramsey, and she understood politics by then.  She bonded with Arya this season, and joined with her, worked out significant issues because they were sisters.

She loves her family, the dead and those still living.

And if Jon wants to be mad..whatever...she was right about his Queen and was genuinely concerned for his life.  I expect Arya to be on Sansa's side after having a front row seat to Dany's destruction.  Honestly, after what Jon saw, I don't expect him to say anything to Sansa about telling the secret he didn't even want to keep.

Edited May 14, 2019 by dirtypop90

[ParadoxLost]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

I don't see how this is a happy ending for Jon, really.

Well there is nothing left to guard against at the wall.  I think Jon would be happiest if he didn't stop at Castle Black but kept going until he joined up with Tormund and the Wildings.  That is the only ending I think that would make Jon happy.

I can't wrap my mind around a scenario where Bronn ends up on the council (I guess Tyrion lives and pays his debt).  

Having Bran as King makes no sense.  Maybe the King becomes an advisory position to the council and his role is to be the keeper of history so mistakes aren't repeated.  They probably develop something closer to a constitutional monarchy.

[kieyra]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

She has no use for her family, so she won't care.

Why does Sansa have to be everyone’s Mom?