Season 8: Speculation and Spoilers Discussion

[GraceK]

I am legitimately so attached to Drogon right now that I will mourn his death more than anything else 😭😭😭 seriously #savedrogon2019

[tangerine95]

Just now, GraceK said:

I am legitimately so attached to Drogon right now that I will mourn his death more than anything else 😭😭😭 seriously #savedrogon2019

Same,I love him so much.I used to be sure the dragons die because I believed that all magic will disappear idea now I actually have a bit of hope they survive which might make it worse lol

[YaddaYadda]

28 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I thought Arya killing the Night King was a brilliant scene, but totally not what I expected. Still, I can't figure out how Arya fits in the "PTWP" and "AA Reborn" prophesies. Jon and Dany and few others can fit one or the other of these prophecies if you squint and look sideways. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the showrunners decided to ignore the prophecies for the payoff of a surprise in that episode. 

Maybe I'm missing something? Does anyone have a theory that works?

Arya's kill has nothing to do with the prophecy. D&D said they did because no one would be expecting it. So whatever they wrote with regard to prophecies and whatever else, they put through the shredder.

I'll never get over it. 

[Eyes High]

Drogon had big holes in his wings in the 8x04 promo. He can still fly and breathe fire, but I doubt he's long for this world in that condition.

[Umbelina]

50 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I thought Arya killing the Night King was a brilliant scene, but totally not what I expected. Still, I can't figure out how Arya fits in the "PTWP" and "AA Reborn" prophesies. Jon and Dany and few others can fit one or the other of these prophecies if you squint and look sideways. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the showrunners decided to ignore the prophecies for the payoff of a surprise in that episode. 

Maybe I'm missing something? Does anyone have a theory that works?

I don't.

I find it hard to believe that they didn't ask GRRM about the PTWP though.

So, going completely wild here, let's say they did ask, but as usually prophesies are tricky.  Staying wild, let's say it's true Jon heads North "to take the black" but what he really does is end long nights forever by becoming the new improved NK, who doesn't make walkers, and has no interest in destroying mankind.  I guess he would be the Night Prince, not King, possibly.  Jon heads north, perhaps with a dragon, to become the NK or NP, who will not attack the people of the world unless they get completely out of control again?   He would be the hero saving them all, and maybe even pass on how that saving could be "forever" depending upon their actions.  Keeping with that other spoiler, perhaps that's why Bran needs to oversee the council?  To keep humans from being such fuckups that the new NK or NP, formerly Jon, would be forced to act.

OK, that's about as fanwanky as I can get here.

The only other even remote idea I have is that Tyrion is a Targ, and somehow HE controls whether or not NIGHT comes back, so is the PTWP.

Jon fits the other bills though.

[tangerine95]

18 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Drogon had big holes in his wings in the 8x04 promo. He can still fly and breathe fire, but I doubt he's long for this world in that condition.

I thought that was Rhaegal?But yeah I think Cersei is taking down a dragon unfortunately,she doesn't have that weapon made for nothing.

[Spartan Girl]

40 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I am legitimately so attached to Drogon right now that I will mourn his death more than anything else 😭😭😭 seriously #savedrogon2019

Kill her favorite child and Dany is guanteed to unleash hell. And I have to say I'd be cheering her on.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Spartan Girl

[GraceK]

35 minutes ago, Spartan Girl said:

Kill her favorite child and Dany is guanteed to unleash hell. And I have to say I'd be cheering her on.

Me too. Seriously. I cheer her on anyway fuck it. Why make excuses to support her? I find pretty much everything she does justifiable 😂👍🏻I admit it.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, tangerine95 said:

I thought that was Rhaegal?But yeah I think Cersei is taking down a dragon unfortunately,she doesn't have that weapon made for nothing.

Both the dragons look pretty beat up after 8x03. If I didn't think they were both dying before the end of the show before, I sure think so now.

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

Kill her favorite child and Dany is guanteed to unleash hell. And I have to say I'd be cheering her on.

On the innocent KL populace? Because we know from set reports in late June/early July that there are hundreds of extras in these big crowd scenes as KL is set on fire and that these are less capital-b Battle scenes than "people running and panicking" scenes. Also, we now know that the fire is caused by a non-wight dragon, either Rhaegal or Drogon. The dragon is probably Drogon, since Kit was filming extensively throughout June and early July and I doubt Rhaegal is the lone remaining dragon (assuming Cersei manages to take out one of them before the KL attack).

Maybe it's not Dany deliberately burning the smallfolk. Maybe it really is something like Drogon going berserk or Tyrion locking everyone in so they can't escape before Dany attacks (which seems odd given that Tyrion has talked Dany down from burning cities to the ground before, and that TV Tyrion in recent seasons is a pacifist, but let's leave that aside), and I'm not really sure what Dany's goal would be of lighting random buildings on fire as opposed to the Red Keep. I tend to doubt that the burning is not deliberate, though, and regardless of her intent, whatever support Dany might have had for her throne before she burns KL and hundreds (thousands?) of innocent people is certainly not going to survive the burning.

And then of course, we have this little speech from Jon in 7x03:

Quote

JON: But you haven't stormed King's Landing. Why not? The only reason I can see is you don't want to kill thousands of innocent people. It's the fastest way to win the war but you won't do it. Which means at the very least you're better than Cersei.

And in 7x04:

Quote

I never thought that dragons would exist again. No one did. The people who follow you know that you made something impossible happen. Maybe that helps them believe that you can make other impossible things happen. Build a world that's different from the shit one they've always known. But if you use them to melt castles and burn cities, you're not different. You're just more of the same.

Well, a city is getting burned in Season 8, and it looks like one of Dany's dragons is the one doing it. Jon thought Dany was better than Cersei in S7 because she wouldn't use the dragons on KL. Does Dany change her mind about using the dragons in S8 on KL? Does Jon change his mind about whether Dany's any better than Cersei?

Varys warned Tyrion in the aftermath of the Tarly BBQ that Tyrion needs to get Dany to listen to him so that she doesn't become Aerys 2.0. Tyrion is already on very thin ice with Dany. He managed to talk Dany down from burning cities to the ground in Season 6 and Season 7. Now that she has lost Jorah (for whom she considers Tyrion a poor substitute as an advisor, apparently), most of the Dothraki, and a good chunk of the Unsullied, is she going to have the same patience with Tyrion's calls for restraint? The blocking in the 8x04 war planning scene we saw in the promo and stills, with Dany flanked by Varys and Missandei but not Tyrion (who seems to be off to the side), already seems like a subtle indication that Tyrion and Dany are on the outs.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Eyes High

[ShellsandCheese]

10 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Me too. Seriously. I cheer her on anyway fuck it. Why make excuses to support her? I find pretty much everything she does justifiable 😂👍🏻I admit it.

This so much! She hasn’t done anything worse than any of the other main characters. 

Arya wipes out all of the Freys and that’s cool. Dany kills a few slavers, and has her dragon(s) burn some ships, a supply convoy, and the Tarly’s - and she’s gone mad! 

Jaime has done all kinds of horrible things but he must get a happy ending and live happily ever with Brienne. 

Bronn is a killer for hire, but by all means he’s worthy of being on a council to rule them all. 

[chrisvee]

I think Tyrion’s betrayal could make sense if Bronn (or someone else) succeeds in killing Jaime and Tyrion goes nuts trying to protect Cersei’s unborn child. The Sansa moment might be there to both hiny at ‘divided loyalties’ plus ramp up some angst. 

I really think Jaime could die in the next ep.

Edited May 3, 2019 by chrisvee

[screamin]

7 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

I think Tyrion’s betrayal could make sense if Bronn (or someone else) succeeds in killing Jaime and Tyrion goes nuts trying to protect Cersei’s unborn child. The Sansa moment might be there to both hiny at ‘divided loyalties’ plus ramp up some angst. 

I really think Jaime could die in the next ep.

Hmm...if Jaime gets killed somehow and his dying wish to Tyrion is to make sure Cersei and his child is saved, maybe Tyrion would foolhardily try to sneak them out of their doom...

- no, dammit, it just makes more sense for him to straightforwardly ask Danaerys to spare Cersei, at least till she gives birth -"pleading her belly" has been a way since medieval times for pregnant women to postpone their execution. But when are things making sense lately?

Edited May 3, 2019 by screamin

[tangerine95]

I just don't see how Dany avoids using the dragons at this point tbh.Her armies are severely weakened,Cersei probably has her beat there.The dragons are the one advantage and I think she'll have to use them.We'll see if the extent or circumstances cross into being cruel and not caring about people's lives but don't see how she gets rid of Cersei without using them at all tho.

Edited May 3, 2019 by tangerine95

[Eyes High]

18 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I just don't see how Dany avoids using the dragons at this point tbh.Her armies are severely weakened,Cersei probably has her beat there.The dragons are the one advantage and I think she'll have to use them.

Sure, but the writers have gone to considerable pains to indicate in previous seasons through Jon and Tyrion that using dragons on cities is self-evident proof of tyranny, full stop. If Jon and Tyrion are suddenly receptive to the use of dragons in S8 on cities, which I very much doubt given how both of them vigorously opposed it in the past, then I'd revisit that opinion. At least in previous seasons, though, that seems to be the line the writers have drawn in the sand, and it appears as if Dany crosses it in S8, although as I have said we don't know the precise circumstances.

It also sounds as if we're going to have some scenes of Arya, Grey Worm, Jon, Davos and Tyrion (not sure of the exact combinations) walking through a burnt-out KL full of burned bodies, which again doesn't sound like positive or even neutral framing of Dany's actions, assuming Drogon burning KL is a deliberate act on Dany's part. And then there's that scene with a "grieving father" shot in late June, which is probably also an extended scene about the horrors of war. It's not looking good.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, Jon and Dany reconcile, Dany gets knocked up, and all this destruction in KL is just an unfortunate side effect of Drogon being violently overprotective of his pregnant mom. It could be. I am beginning to wonder, though. I thought the idea of an endgame conflict between the Starks and Dany was utterly ridiculous, but now I am less sure.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

6 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Sure, but the writers have gone to considerable pains to indicate in previous seasons through Jon and Tyrion that using dragons on cities is self-evident proof of tyranny, full stop. If Jon and Tyrion are suddenly receptive to the use of dragons in S8 on cities, which I very much doubt given how both of them vigorously opposed it in the past, then I'd revisit that opinion. At least in previous seasons, though, that seems to be the line the writers have drawn in the sand, and it appears as if Dany crosses it in S8, although as I have said we don't know the precise circumstances.

It also sounds as if we're going to have some scenes of Arya, Grey Worm, Jon, Davos and Tyrion (not sure of the exact combinations) walking through a burnt-out KL full of burned bodies, which again doesn't sound like positive or even neutral framing of Dany's actions, assuming Drogon burning KL is a deliberate act on Dany's part. And then there's that scene with a "grieving father" shot in late June, which is probably also an extended scene about the horrors of war. It's not looking good.

I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, Jon and Dany reconcile, Dany gets knocked up, and all this destruction in KL is just an unfortunate side effect of Drogon being violently overprotective of his pregnant mom. It could be. I am beginning to wonder, though. I thought the idea of an endgame conflict between the Starks and Dany was utterly ridiculous, but now I am less sure.

I get your point and yeah it could go that way.I just feel like in light of huge loses after the great war they'll have to reexamine if they can afford not to use the dragons when it's the one real advantage they have.

[aprilbabe]

We will see how everything goes. There were so many things people were so sure of happening for episode 1-3 based on filming and extras. (Winterfell being destroyed)But when it played out on screen it was different then what everyone expected.

[Jextella]

I'm rewatching old episodes - albeit slowly.  I kinda want to wait until the end and then go back so I can better understand how things fit together.

Meanwhile, with regards to Tyrion betraying the North.....there are moments early on that could read in that direction.  Tyrion going to the wall just to pee off the edge seems counter to his character and there was real no point in it...so, why, but to learn what's up there, etc.  He taunts Theon because of his lowly position with the Starks and his family's poor battle skills.  It's almost as if he tries to light a fire under him.   Maybe he was in cahoots with Littlefinger, and thus the dagger, etc.  He does ask Robb at one point if Bran remembers what happened when he fell.

Dunno, but I can see it - at least where I'm at in rewatching.

[tangerine95]

2 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

We will see how everything goes. There were so many things people were so sure of happening for episode 1-3 based on filming and extras. (Winterfell being destroyed)But when it played out on screen it was different then what everyone expected.

I was so sure WF was going to burn down completely and we weren't even going to see it start being rebuilt until like an epilogue maybe.And based on the promo for episode 4 they pretty much repaired the damage lol

[anamika]

I am going to stand by my theory that it's Bran warging a dragon and burning down KL.

[aprilbabe]

2 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am going to stand by my theory that it's Bran warging a dragon and burning down KL.

At least that will give him something to do other than creepily staring at people. lol

[Solace247]

3 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Ah, pluuuuze. Those suckers are so in love with the dragons that they don’t want to give 5 seconds of their screen time to wolves or spiders, or whatever. They want their magic when it suits them - dragons - but as soon it is something they don’t like magic becomes stupid.

And it is not like the wolves are creatures that showed up in the last episode of season 7 and they didn’t have time to find a way to work around them and throw the fans a bone. They simple don’t care. 

To be fair, the show had to fly Maisie out to Calgary, Alberta, Canada just to film that scene with her and Nymeria and her pack from last season which lasted like a minute onscreen. Then they had to CG it. It is budgetary to some extent.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Solace247

[Eyes High]

46 minutes ago, tangerine95 said:

I get your point and yeah it could go that way.I just feel like in light of huge loses after the great war they'll have to reexamine if they can afford not to use the dragons when it's the one real advantage they have.

I get you. I think it's kind of unfair that the writers have framed what could be seen as a hard but necessary tactical decision as the sort of unspeakable atrocity that would automatically render Dany a tyrant unfit to rule, but that seems to be what's going to happen, barring Jon and Tyrion changing their minds. I'm preparing for lots of lengthy thinkpieces about nuclear weapons analogies either way.

I think the writers have planted enough seeds of doubt to lead the viewer to root against Dany as an endgame ruler: I think the Tarly BBQ, Varys' reaction to it, and its devastating effect on Sam, were definitely calculated to that end. Jon seems kind of doughy and unconvincing to me as an endgame ruler as of the end of 8x03, though: Arya was the one who saved everyone while Jon flailed around uselessly. Kit loved 8x04, so maybe it will be a better showcase for Jon as a character than 8x03 and the first three episodes in general, where he seems to be a passive, hapless sort buffeted about by the other characters, as opposed to the kind of powerful, determined person of action everyone can get behind. Hopefully we'll have less of Sam telling the audience what an amazing king Jon would be and more of Jon actually acting kingly, but we'll have to see. (I'm guessing Sam's main argument will be less "Jon is awesome" and more "Dany sucks," of course.)

Edited May 3, 2019 by Eyes High

[tangerine95]

9 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

I get you. I think it's kind of unfair that the writers have framed what could be seen as a hard but necessary tactical decision as the sort of unspeakable atrocity that would automatically render Dany a tyrant unfit to rule, but that seems to be what's going to happen, barring Jon and Tyrion changing their minds. I'm preparing for lots of lengthy thinkpieces about nuclear weapons analogies either way.

I think the writers have planted enough seeds of doubt to lead the viewer to root against Dany as an endgame ruler: I think the Tarly BBQ, Varys' reaction to it, and its devastating effect on Sam, were definitely calculated to that end. Jon seems kind of doughy and unconvincing to me as an endgame ruler as of the end of 8x03, though: Arya was the one who saved everyone while Jon flailed around uselessly. Kit loved 8x04, so maybe it will be a better showcase for Jon as a character than 8x03 and the first three episodes in general, where he seems to be a passive, hapless sort buffeted about by the other characters, as opposed to the kind of powerful, determined person of action everyone can get behind.

I think the Tarly thing is pretty weak for some mad tyrant narrative but after episode 3 I feel like almost all bets are off tbh.

[Smad]

31 minutes ago, anamika said:

I am going to stand by my theory that it's Bran warging a dragon and burning down KL.

And as a reward, he becomes 'overseer' of the entire 7K.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

3 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

I thought Arya killing the Night King was a brilliant scene, but totally not what I expected. Still, I can't figure out how Arya fits in the "PTWP" and "AA Reborn" prophesies. Jon and Dany and few others can fit one or the other of these prophecies if you squint and look sideways. The only thing that makes any sense to me is that the showrunners decided to ignore the prophecies for the payoff of a surprise in that episode. 

Maybe I'm missing something? Does anyone have a theory that works?

I don't.

I find it hard to believe that they didn't ask GRRM about the PTWP though.

So, going completely wild here, let's say they did ask, but as usually prophesies are tricky.  Staying wild, let's say it's true Jon heads North "to take the black" but what he really does is end long nights forever by becoming the new improved NK, who doesn't make walkers, and has no interest in destroying mankind.  I guess he would be the Night Prince, not King, possibly.  Jon heads north, perhaps with a dragon, to become the NK or NP, who will not attack the people of the world unless they get completely out of control again?   He would be the hero saving them all, and maybe even pass on how that saving could be "forever" depending upon their actions.  Keeping with that other spoiler, perhaps that's why Bran needs to oversee the council?  To keep humans from being such fuckups that the new NK or NP, formerly Jon, would be forced to act.

OK, that's about as fanwanky as I can get here.

The only other even remote idea I have is that Tyrion is a Targ, and somehow HE controls whether or not NIGHT comes back, so is the PTWP.

Jon fits the other bills though.

I thought of another way Jon could still be the PTWP.

He's the one who rallied everyone, including Dani and her Dragons, and he was the one who got people to fight the NK.  In addition, he was the one to first put a sword in Ayra's hands, and her first teacher.

So, basically, without Jon's actions, the NK would probably still be marching south (which I think he will in the book version anyway) and he would still be alive.  So, because of Jon, though not directly by his hand?  The NK, or long night was defeated.

Tada!

[SimoneS]

Episode four is going to be 1 hour and 18 minutes. Why is it so long? As far as we know, they burn the dead, make plans for the war against Cersei, and arrive at KL so there must be a major time jump. Maybe Cersei's KL scenes take up the extra time?

Edited May 3, 2019 by SimoneS

[MarySNJ]

48 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I thought of another way Jon could still be the PTWP.

He's the one who rallied everyone, including Dani and her Dragons, and he was the one who got people to fight the NK.  In addition, he was the one to first put a sword in Ayra's hands, and her first teacher.

So, basically, without Jon's actions, the NK would probably still be marching south (which I think he will in the book version anyway) and he would still be alive.  So, because of Jon, though not directly by his hand?  The NK, or long night was defeated.

Tada!

Yeah, this is as close as I can come to the prophecy fitting into the current story arc. Jon's been sounding the alarm about the NK and AotD for 2-3 seasons and almost singularly focused on trying to bring everything together that they need to fight it, even to the extent that he was murdered for bringing the Freefolk south of the Wall. 

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

Yeah, this is as close as I can come to the prophecy fitting into the current story arc. Jon's been sounding the alarm about the NK and AotD for 2-3 seasons and almost singularly focused on trying to bring everything together that they need to fight it, even to the extent that he was murdered for bringing the Freefolk south of the Wall. 

AND gave Arya her first sword!

[Clawdette]

Here's an out-there theory.  Maybe the wedding speculation concerns one between Euron and Cersei.  The Episode 4 previews look like he may be proposing and she could accept.  They hold a gauche affair, Dany gets wind of it and fires up the venue - sort an Orange Wedding that can be thought of as payback for the Red Wedding but is really in retaliation for Rhaegal's or Missandei's death(s).   Once they're in the groove, Dany/Drogon become fire happy and take out most of the city.  

Of course, this would most likely eliminate the Jaime/Cersei death scene unless he is able to crawl through the inferno so that they can take their last breaths together.  

I would like this scenario just to see Euron's face when he realizes his dreams just went up in smoke.

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, Jextella said:

I'm rewatching old episodes - albeit slowly.  I kinda want to wait until the end and then go back so I can better understand how things fit together.

Meanwhile, with regards to Tyrion betraying the North.....there are moments early on that could read in that direction.  Tyrion going to the wall just to pee off the edge seems counter to his character and there was real no point in it...so, why, but to learn what's up there, etc.  He taunts Theon because of his lowly position with the Starks and his family's poor battle skills.  It's almost as if he tries to light a fire under him.   Maybe he was in cahoots with Littlefinger, and thus the dagger, etc.  He does ask Robb at one point if Bran remembers what happened when he fell.

Dunno, but I can see it - at least where I'm at in rewatching.

He goes up there cuz he's a scholar so he wants to learn what the wall was about hence all his earlier lessons for jon. Its interesting that hes reverting back to that persona, (interest in Bran).

Only thing I can possibly think of and this is way out there is that Tyrion finds out that Sam  has proof about Jon's real identity so he kills Sam but gets caught.

Well we have no way of disproving that Tyrions trial happens till the fifth episode but Im extremely skeptical. The writers would have started pushing him in that direction and we got nothing. Dany's more worried about his incompetence than his loyalty, and even when he talks to Jamie alone, there's no real hint that he's at all loyal to Cersei. As a matter of fact, he talks about killing her.  Tend to believe theres more in store for Tyrion's future than some aha gotcha he's evil/ a traitor moment.

[BadAssRobinArryn]

Unless she suddenly goes mad, I can't understand why Dany would order a Dragon attack on King's Landing. On the Red Keep itself? Yes. On the Red Keep after Cersei let in the smallfolk, making Dany's actions much more morally ambigous? Yes. But on random houses? Why? I honestly see no motivation for this. 

And I also can't see why Jon should stab her. Taking her a Prisoner, even killing her in self defense? Maybe, if she goes completely crazy (for which I don't see any signs). But cold-bloodedly stabbing her? A man stabbing a physically weaker woman and this should be seen as heroic?

Edited May 3, 2019 by BadAssRobinArryn

[anamika]

This fun fact makes me even more pissed off. It's not even 50% devoted to the WW/AOTD and 50% cersei. More like 20 % WW and 80 % Cersei/Iron Throne shenanigans.

[LadyPenelope]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

He goes up there cuz he's a scholar so he wants to learn what the wall was about hence all his earlier lessons for jon. Its interesting that hes reverting back to that persona, (interest in Bran).

Only thing I can possibly think of and this is way out there is that Tyrion finds out that Sam  has proof about Jon's real identity so he kills Sam but gets caught.

Well we have no way of disproving that Tyrions trial happens till the fifth episode but Im extremely skeptical. The writers would have started pushing him in that direction and we got nothing. Dany's more worried about his incompetence than his loyalty, and even when he talks to Jamie alone, there's no real hint that he's at all loyal to Cersei. As a matter of fact, he talks about killing her.  Tend to believe theres more in store for Tyrion's future than some aha gotcha he's evil/ a traitor moment.

I think the only person Tyrion would betray Dany/the Starks for is Jaime - might fit with the spoilers about Jaime being taken hostage and Tyrion freeing him?

[cambridgeguy]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

This fun fact makes me even more pissed off. It's not even 50% devoted to the WW/AOTD and 50% cersei. More like 20 % WW and 80 % Cersei/Iron Throne shenanigans.

How is this a surprise, though?  The vast majority of the show has been about the political shenanigans, not prepping for the WW as they slooooowly marched south.  They were always going to spend more time on Cersei than on fighting some mute plot device.

2 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

And I also can't see why Jon should stab her. Taking her a Prisoner, even killing her in self defense? Maybe, if she goes completely crazy (for which I don't see any signs). But cold-bloodedly stabbing her? A man stabbing a physically weaker woman and this should be seen as heroic? 

Jaime stabbed a crazy old man in the back and that was supposed to be his most heroic action.  Arya slit the throat of a lecherous old man and the audience cheered.  If she goes evil (which is ridiculous, but that's another issue) then it will absolutely be viewed as heroic if Jon tearfully but resolutely does what he has to in order to save lives.  He can then spend the rest of his life doing what he does best (i.e. brooding).  The bottom line is that if you like the character anything can be excused (Jaime shoved Bran out window, raped his sister, etc.? No biggie, he's an honorable man now!) and if you don't then nothing they do will change your mind (Dany helped save the North?  She must have done it for purely selfish reasons.  Kill her now!). 

[Pestilentia]

I think that at this point Bran is a meat hard drive and not much more. He may have a tiny spark of Stark left flickering but it is dwindling and will eventually go out. His time spent in the cave was analogous to a system upgrade where the new hard drive (Bran) was being formatted and the system switch taking place as the old hardware (Bloodraven) was retired. That's completed now and his job is to record.  He is a repository. He is no longer an individual- he is a piece of hardware. He has no real agency aside from the odd cryptic comment to direct people in the direction they are destined to go anyway. And IMO this direction is 99.9% exposition anyway- to help us as viewers understand the pre-existing roles everyone is meant to play.

Quote

If he's on the side of humanity, then why he sacrifice thousands for no reason? If he cares about humanity, there are so many lives he could have saved. Instead he sat around doing nothing all last Season and this Season. So no, from what I've seen, all the 3ER cares about is self preservation. And he doesn't care about how many die so long as he lives.

Humanity means humanity as a whole, not this human and that human cherry picked by some metric as insignificant as family DNA. He is not here to influence events, he is here to record the events of the species as a whole. If that requires watching the deaths of the people in the family from which he came then so be it. 

Just because we don't know the reason doesn't mean there isn't one.

Quote

What did Bran actually do during the battle? He warged some ravens to near the NK and then?

He was recording. His warging is used only to enhance his view or his mobility to get to a better vantage point.

He is not warging to go and do stuff, only to go and see stuff happen.   

I think expecting "Bran" (who no longer exists) to function in any sort of human capacity is missing the point of what the 3ER really is. He is not Bran any more. He is not going to be sitting on a council or being an advisor or doing anything to influence or change human events. His "bigger picture" is not Kingdoms or councils or family names- his big picture is seeing the events that comprise the Age of Man.

[Bannon]

If they have Dany go insane, in some sort of genetic way, they just haven't written the previous 7 seasons well enough to make it credible; we just haven't seen enough largely irrational behavior from her to date. Yes, she has engaged in extreme violence at times. That's what politics is in a time of war. If that makes her insane, then so was Abraham Lincoln, or F.D.R..

I don't want to be too harsh. It is very difficult to write a realistic, detailed, psychological portrayal of a single complex character, against this massive political/religous backdrop, taking place over many years, encompassing a huge geographical area, and dozens and dozens of other very complex characters. But if that is the endeavor they set out upon, they just haven't pulled it off, and converting her into a  genocidal out of control fanatic in these last 3 episodes just isn't going to work, and lots of people are going to reasonably see it as a flop of an ending.

I'm not strongly emotionally invested in this outcome, one way or another because, although I've enjoyed the show, this genre isn't really my thing, or hasn't been since I read Tolkien as a 10 year old. I just don't get lost in a story of this genre like I do great stories that take place in our world. That's my view, however, just as someone who thinks the technical aspects and mechanics of storytelling is intrinsically interesting. They just haven't written Dany in a way that would allow that outcome to be successful, as a matter of good storytelling.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Bannon

[Affogato]

GRRM stories re mostly tragedies. The ones I’ve read. Call it ‘bittersweet’ if you like. I assume this will i form the ending of the show. 

[SimoneS]

3 hours ago, BadAssRobinArryn said:

And I also can't see why Jon should stab her. Taking her a Prisoner, even killing her in self defense? Maybe, if she goes completely crazy (for which I don't see any signs). But cold-bloodedly stabbing her? A man stabbing a physically weaker woman and this should be seen as heroic?

If Jon does stab and kill Dany, you bet that she is written as irrational and too far gone to reason with so that there is no other choice. Maybe she intends to take Drogon and go conquer what remains of the North if it doesn't bend the knee, forcing Jon to choose the Starks over the Targaryens.

IF the second posted leak is true: 

If she finds out that Cersei killed Missandei, is betrayed by Varys, no longer trusts Tyrion, and doubts Jon's loyalty, I can easily see Dany making the decision to  have Drogon burn down KL. Dany's instinct to take action has always been tempered by her willingness to listen to the people she trusts and whose advice she respects. Without Jorah, Daario, Ser Barristan, or Missandei, she will choose the quickest path to achieve her goal.

Edited May 3, 2019 by SimoneS

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, Affogato said:

GRRM stories re mostly tragedies. The ones I’ve read. Call it ‘bittersweet’ if you like. I assume this will i form the ending of the show. 

What would be interesting is some horribly regrettable outcomes due to reasonably decent, non villainous, people profoundly misunderstanding each other. That's kind of the most awful sort of tragedy that humans experience. I don't know if they have properly set the stage for that, but I've been mildly pleasantly surprised through the first 3 episodes this season, so I'll continue to hope for the best. 

[anamika]

58 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

How is this a surprise, though?  The vast majority of the show has been about the political shenanigans, not prepping for the WW as they slooooowly marched south.  They were always going to spend more time on Cersei than on fighting some mute plot device. 

Because it undermines the entire premise of the story? Political infighting is more important than this existential threat that's been equated to climate change  about which we still know absolutely nothing because these guys started and ended the long night in one episode.

So yeah. That was surprising to me. I did not realize D&D cared this little about that aspect of the show.

[YaddaYadda]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

So yeah. That was surprising to me. I did not realize D&D cared this little about that aspect of the show.

If the NK had been played by Lena Heady, they might have cared more.

[aprilbabe]

56 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

If Jon does stab and kill Dany, you bet that she is written as irrational and too far gone to reason with so that there is no other choice. Maybe she intends to take Drogon and go conquer what remains of the North if it doesn't bend the knee, forcing Jon to choose the Starks over the Targaryens.

IF the second posted leak is true: 

If she finds out that Cersei killed Missandei, is betrayed by Varys, no longer trusts Tyrion, and doubts Jon's loyalty, I can easily see Dany making the decision to  have Drogon burn down KL. Dany's instinct to take action has always been tempered by her willingness to listen to the people she trusts and whose advice she respects. Without Jorah, Daario, Ser Barristan, or Missandei, she will choose the quickest path to achieve her goal.

If that were to happen I would honestly feel bad for her. If she loses everyone that matters to her and can no longer trust her advisors  (and if they turn on her she would have been right not to) she would have my sympathy.

And I would hate Jon. Knowing all the peoples she’s lost. The at least twice that she saved his life. Losing a dragon to save him. Losing a lot of the army after helping the north. If he falls in line and turns against her and murders her.and she knows it’s him breaking her heart before she dies. The ultimate betrayal. Fuck him. There is no way him killing Dany will make him a hero, except for the people who already hate Dany.

you can’t have everyone gang up on her and expect people to think it’s a good thing when she’s murdered by the man she loves. It would be overkill.

Edited May 3, 2019 by aprilbabe

[SimoneS]

46 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

If that were to happen I would honestly feel bad for her. If she loses everyone that matters to her and can no longer trust her advisors  (and if they turn on her she would have been right not to) she would have my sympathy.

I agree, but the story will be written to portray Dany as being unreasonable, cold, unforgiving, tyrannical, merciless, etc., thereby, making Jon have doubts about her worthiness to be queen. We have seen this before with the Tarlys. This is why as much as I want to dismiss this leak as fan fiction, I just can't. The leak describes the perfect sequence of events to get to the moment that justifies Jon killing Dany.

[aprilbabe]

29 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I agree, but the story will be written to portray Dany as being unreasonable, cold, unforgiving, tyrannical, merciless, etc., thereby, making Jon have doubts about her worthiness to be queen. We have seen this before with the Tarlys. This is why as much as I want to dismiss this leak as fan fiction, I just can't. The leak describes the perfect sequence of events to get to the moment that justifies Jon killing Dany.

Which I say will be poorly written. In order for her to become all those things. You have to take everything away from her. Those things would be a direct result of grief, loss and betrayal. Building her up for 7 season, stripping everything thing away in3 eps, and then putting her down like a rabbid dog by Jon Snow. Yea that ain’t going well, and doesn’t fit with the story they’ve told so far.

doesn't mean it won’t happen, but it doesn’t make sense story telling wise. Maybe if it happened over a full season (10eps), but the last three eps. NOPE. It’s sloppy. 

They are going to have a hard time making it justified. Without making dany the villain seem like overkill(the can’t lay it on too thick) if a switch just flips in dany it won’t work. You can’t ask an audience to forget everything thing they’ve seen for 7 years in ep. they  may try it. I honestly don’t think it’s going to work though. Beloved Jon Snow is going to be hated.

Edited May 3, 2019 by aprilbabe

[BadAssRobinArryn]

We literally just saw Dany helping save the world. And now she should go completely crazy within three episodes (which have the length of four normal episodes)? That will be really hard to pull off. I don't even see the big tragedy in Jon killing her. For all that Jon/Dany shipping out there, they know each other for like 7 episodes now and in the final it will be a maximun of ten. It's like the biggest possible tragedy with the least possible build-up.

And also, I do not want to minimize the possible loses of Jorah, Rhaegal and Missandei for Dany. But it's not true that everything is taken away from her. She still would have Jon or Drogon or Grey Worm (and Tyrion or Varys, if they don't betray her). The Northerners seem to be on her side now as well. She's not that alone. Certainly less so than Sansa or Arya were after Ned's death or the Red Wedding.

[MarySNJ]

32 minutes ago, aprilbabe said:

Which I say will be poorly written. In order for her to become all those things. You have to take everything away from her. Those things would be a direct result of grief, loss and betrayal. Building her up for 7 season, stripping everything thing away in3 eps, and then putting her down like a rabbid dog by Jon Snow. Yea that ain’t going well, and doesn’t fit with the story they’ve told so far.

doesn't mean it won’t happen, but it doesn’t make sense story telling wise. Maybe if it happened over a full season (10eps), but the last three eps. NOPE. It’s sloppy. 

They are going to have a hard time making it justified. Without making dany the villain seem like overkill(the can’t lay it on too thick) if a switch just flips in dany it won’t work. You can’t ask an audience to forget everything thing they’ve seen for 7 years in ep. they  may try it. I honestly don’t think it’s going to work though. Beloved Jon Snow is going to be hated.

This is exactly how I feel. It’s a failure of the show runners if their goal is create a situation in which an honorable man would murder his lover and kin after everything she sacrificed for him and the whole of Westeros and or had taken from her over the course of the series. Horrible ruthless people have done horrible things for selfish reasons and still get to win at least for a while on this show. Dany may be ruthless at times but she’s generally been motivated by trying to do the right thing for the most people. 

 And the idea that Jon would end a murderer and kinslayer  and spend the rest of his life in cold exile is just tragic. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by MarySNJ

[anamika]

3 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

It’s a failure of the show runners if their goal is create a situation in which an honorable man would murder his lover and kin after everything she sacrificed for him and the whole of Westeros and or had taken from her over the course of the series.

D&D : We hope to avoid the expected and it felt right for us to do this.

[Eyes High]

21 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

This is exactly how I feel. It’s a failure of the show runners if their goal is create a situation in which an honorable man would murder his lover and kin after everything she sacrificed for him and the whole of Westeros and or had taken from her over the course of the series. Horrible ruthless people have done horrible things for selfish reasons and still get to win at least for a while on this show. Dany may be ruthless at times but she’s generally been motivated by trying to do the right thing for the most people. 

 And the idea that Jon would end a murderer and kinslayer  and spend the rest of his life in cold exile is just tragic. 

I don't know what's going to happen, and I've gotten it wrong before (as @Wouter cheerfully pointed out upthread), but in addition to the potential implications of Drogon or Rhaegal burning KL, I do get a vibe for whatever that's worth that we are not going to get Dany on the throne at the end. The writers have raised too many red flags around her ruthlessness to leave her in charge, either with or without Jon. Whether or not that means her death, I don't know. Maybe she gets knocked up and realizes that her love for Jon trumps everything else and that all she has ever wanted is a family of her own. Maybe she and Jon after defeating Cersei decide they've had enough of politics and leave Westeros. It could be.

We'll also see how Jon, who's had a laserlike focus on the AOTD at the expense of all else for a while, reacts to the end of the Great War. Will he acquire a new political consciousness and take a keen interest in worldly affairs and the fate of Westeros, or will he just curl up in a ball and ask everyone to just leave him alone already?

I would be pretty amused if after all the fan meta over the years about how Arya is too damaged for a relationship and doesn't care for such trifles and could never possibly find love that it turns out that Arya/Gendry is the only intact couple when the endgame rolls around. Right now things are looking pretty good for their prospects, with Arya and Gendry kissing in the 8x04 promo and Maisie and apparently Joe filming at Italica.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Eyes High

[YaddaYadda]

17 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

This is exactly how I feel. It’s a failure of the show runners if their goal is create a situation in which an honorable man would murder his lover and kin after everything she sacrificed for him and the whole of Westeros and or had taken from her over the course of the series. Horrible ruthless people have done horrible things for selfish reasons and still get to win at least for a while on this show. Dany may be ruthless at times but she’s generally been motivated by trying to do the right thing for the most people. 

If we go with D&D's brand of writing, there would be nothing shocking if they wrote what these rumors say they wrote.

They didn't care about obliterating their own writing/set ups for the Long Night. Why should they care how Jon and Dany get from point A to point Z. 

“Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." This is what they said.

Plus this is how you know the characters they really like and want to write for. 

Hint: Their names are not Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen.

[Eyes High]

8 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

If we go with D&D's brand of writing, there would be nothing shocking if they wrote what these rumors say they wrote.

They didn't care about obliterating their own writing/set ups for the Long Night. Why should they care how Jon and Dany get from point A to point Z. 

“Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." This is what they said.

Plus this is how you know the characters they really like and want to write for. 

Hint: Their names are not Jon Snow or Daenerys Targaryen.

I'm not sure which characters you mean. Is Sansa Benioff's favourite?

Cogman's faves are Sansa and Theon, and it shows, but I don't know about the others.