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S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

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1 hour ago, The Morning Star said:

After 12 seasons, I can clearly see that Sam Winchester (although I love both the character and the actor) unfortunately has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him, continued ignorance of Dean's concerns despite that fact that time of time after time he was proven to be right and the superiority complex that he has that makes him behave like he's the better man

Then I guess our shared enjoyment of the Lucifer character is where our similarities in character preferences likely end.

I disagree with your assessment of Sam and of Jared's ability to play the character... and similar to @companionenvy, my opinions on that are not determined by Jared's looks except as they relate to the expressions he makes while acting.

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18 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'm not thrilled with the implication that the straight women on here are being blinded by our hormones. 

 

I think Sam can be sanctimonious, but the above description strikes me as harsh. I certainly wouldn't call him childish, and "smartass," while it might bear some relationship to other words like high-handed, self-righteous, etc, doesn't, IMO, have the right connotation. Sam's not a punk kid. 

 

Really? What is this referring to? Until this latest business with Mark Shepherd seemingly having left on not the greatest terms, this cast has seemed to be remarkably drama free. I agree that he isn't as skilled an actor as Jensen, who might have been able to sell even the extreme cheese of Sam's "rally the troops" speech, but I've never heard anything negative about him as a person. Then again, I don't follow the cast all that closely, so maybe I've missed something. 

That's what you said, all I did was to talk about myself and clearing my opinion of any possible judgement based on those issues as unfortunately, many fans are just like that.

Does that mean all Women are like that? No....and I never implied so.

 

As for Padaleci (correct spelling right?), There are a "few" instances of him throwing temper tantrums on twitter, incidents like posting pictures of employees of hotels and etc who He for reasons unknown found deserving of being attacked by his army fans only to delete the said tweets like 15 minutes later.

How is that none of the above?

As for my choice of words, I'm told to be a little bit extreme in that......I give you that.

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On 5/23/2017 at 3:25 PM, gonzosgirrl said:

But Hess was the head of Not!Hogwarts, presumably pretty high up the pecking order, so if not her, then who?

This is the same group, though, who in 1958 decided against sending more members over to kick start the MoL again after Abaddon's little rampage of death. We know they didn't because the bunker stayed abandoned. 

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6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Do Crowley's words here seem a little meta to you guys, given Mark has confirmed he's leaving the show?

I never noticed that. Makes you think. Thanks for posting.

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5 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

 

 

After 12 seasons, I can clearly see that Sam Winchester (although I love both the character and the actor) unfortunately has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him, continued ignorance of Dean's concerns despite that fact that time of time after time he was proven to be right and the superiority complex that he has that makes him behave like he's the better man which again unfortunately stems from the fact that the actor is a short tempered teenage drama queen based on his social  media behavior.

I am an older woman who also isn't that concerned with either actors looks. I have raised three boys myself who are now fine adults (daughter too) and I have to admit that from season 1 episode 1, Sam came across to me as a spoiled know it all who thought he was better than his brother. Part of that was the writing and part of it was how JP delivered the lines. I can't help my initial reaction. That first impression softens and then the writers do another Sam thinks he knows better than Dean but he's actually wrong. It doesn't help that Jensen is such an amazing actor and IMO, has been better at selling his character as sympathetic since day one.

I just wish the writers would grow Sam up and LET HIM STAY THERE.

5 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

 

 

5 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

 

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14 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

I am an older woman who also isn't that concerned with either actors looks. I have raised three boys myself who are now fine adults (daughter too) and I have to admit that from season 1 episode 1, Sam came across to me as a spoiled know it all who thought he was better than his brother. Part of that was the writing and part of it was how JP delivered the lines. I can't help my initial reaction. That first impression softens and then the writers do another Sam thinks he knows better than Dean but he's actually wrong. It doesn't help that Jensen is such an amazing actor and IMO, has been better at selling his character as sympathetic since day one.

I just wish the writers would grow Sam up and LET HIM STAY THERE.

 

I'm an older brother myself and since the day one, I felt a connection to Dean Winchester specially since when Sam died the first time.

I get that brotherly love, I understand how desperate Dean must have felt when he sold his soul to get Sam back and how hurt he was when Sam said what he said back in S9.

 

I can understand his suck it up the pain attitude, I know how it feels for him to be a semi-father figure to someone when being a child themselves.

 

I also absolutely dig the bond between Dean and Cas because I can get that too, two dudes who love each other in a friendship/brotherly way.

 

With Sam, I just can't connect with him, I can surely say that one of the only Sam lines that really had an emotional effect on me was the "You being here fills the biggest void in my life" line he said to Mary.

And it's a combination of both the actor and the script unfortunately.

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6 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

being

 

7 minutes ago, The Morning Star said:

I'm an older brother myself and since the day one, I felt a connection to Dean Winchester specially since when Sam died the first time.

I get that brotherly love, I understand how desperate Dean must have felt when he sold his soul to get Sam back and how hurt he was when Sam said what he said back in S9.

 

I can understand his suck it up the pain attitude, I know how it feels for him to be a semi-father figure to someone when being a child themselves.

 

I also absolutely dig the bond between Dean and Cas because I can get that too, two dudes who love each other in a friendship/brotherly way.

 

With Sam, I just can't connect with him, I can surely say that one of the only Sam lines that really had an emotional effect on me was the "You being here fills the biggest void in my life" line he said to Mary.

And it's a combination of both the actor and the script unfortunately.

Yes! And I also agree the Twitter tantrums now don't help.

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7 hours ago, The Morning Star said:

 

I'm a straight guy, meaning I'm neither a Fangirl nor a have "Physical" interest in any of the male characters on the show, with that out of the way here's what I think overall about Sam Winchester's leadership speech.

 

After 12 seasons, I can clearly see that Sam Winchester (although I love both the character and the actor) unfortunately has a childish, SJW, know it all smartass attitude to him, continued ignorance of Dean's concerns despite that fact that time of time after time he was proven to be right and the superiority complex that he has that makes him behave like he's the better man which again unfortunately stems from the fact that the actor is a short tempered teenage drama queen based on his social  media behavior.

So even if they gave him the most excellent of scripts, he just can't pull off such speeches and acting, period.

And In the same episode, I, a grown man was silently crying with Dean when he was talking to his mom.

 

Again, I'm not knocking on the character or actor because I like the other one and want him to look better in contrast but simply presenting my observations after 12 seasons.

I like the fact that Sam is now a more grown up version of himself, things just it at least now don't seem as genuine as they needs to be.

I gotta say, I find it a little silly to claim some women here are letting their hormones get in the way of their opinions.  Just because someone may not agree with your assessment of a character doesn't mean it's solely up to hormones.  It doesn't mean their opinions should be seen as less valid or that they're a mere fangirl.

For what it's worth, I agree with you about Jared's twitter antics but completely disagree with you about Sam as a character.  

Edited by Reganne
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You know the more I think about this I don't think Jensen was throwing shade at Berens  but I think he gave Berens the benefit of doubt at least publicly that this was planned all along.

I understand that episodic television actors may not know specifics of how it will all play out but J2 have said before they are told generally what will happen for an overall story arc for their character with the  understanding that things might change if actors aren't available, maybe SL aren't well received, etc so things might change.  Carver and Singer both admitted they didn't have demon!Dean planned from the jump of the Mark of Cain arc for Dean.

Jensen doesn't play only what is written on the page when it comes to storytelling. He's mentioned several times that Kim Manners always told him to play what isn't on the page, too.  That is why Jensen peppers Dean's history into his performances and why he inserts character beats that are not scripted, like when Dean hesitated and steeled himself before descending into Hell again for the first time, after having been in Hell for 40 years. If it was really planned from the moment Mary was resurrected  why not tell Jensen this?  By not telling him, they were essentially directing Jensen by not giving him information. Did they not trust him to play that arc properly and hold the reveal to the end? Jensen is a director himself and loves to tell a good story.

So given Jensen's alacrity with knowing what to play or NOT play as the case may be, I find it kind of stunning and illogical for Dabb to make a choice to hold that critical information from Jensen, until "Who We Are" was written.  I suspect the spin would be 'Well, I wanted it to be as authentic a reaction as possible from Jensen when Dean has the revelation that he hated his mother and needed to forgive her'. But, apparently Dabb didn't trust the actor  who has played that role for 12 years to comprehend the nuance of Dean's psyche and not reveal this moment accidentally along the way, so he didn't tell him. OR it wasn't planned at all from the jump. I'm going with the latter.

Does anyone know if J2 knew that Sam was going to be addicted to demon blood when they started s4 but they weren't going to reveal it to the audience until later in the season?

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4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know the more I think about this I don't think Jensen was throwing shade at Berens  but I think he gave Berens the benefit of doubt at least publicly that this was planned all along.

IMO, there is no way that what Jensen said can be interpreted as HIM throwing shade. I just think some of us analyzed what was inadvertently revealed and found it stunning how clueless the writers often are.

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I understand that episodic television actors may not know specifics of how it will all play out but J2 have said before they are told generally what will happen for an overall story arc for their character with the  understanding that things might change if actors aren't available, maybe SL aren't well received, etc so things might change.  Carver and Singer both admitted they didn't have demon!Dean planned from the jump of the Mark of Cain arc for Dean.

Jensen doesn't play only what is written on the page when it comes to storytelling. He's mentioned several times that Kim Manners always told him to play what isn't on the page, too.  That is why Jensen peppers Dean's history into his performances and why he inserts character beats that are not scripted, like when Dean hesitated and steeled himself before descending into Hell again for the first time, after having been in Hell for 40 years. If it was really planned from the moment Mary was resurrected  why not tell Jensen this?  By not telling him, they were essentially directing Jensen by not giving him information. Did they not trust him to play that arc properly and hold the reveal to the end? Jensen is a director himself and loves to tell a good story.

So given Jensen's alacrity with knowing what to play or NOT play as the case may be, I find it kind of stunning and illogical for Dabb to make a choice to hold that critical information from Jensen, until "Who We Are" was written.  I suspect the spin would be 'Well, I wanted it to be as authentic a reaction as possible from Jensen when Dean has the revelation that he hated his mother and needed to forgive her'. But, apparently Dabb didn't trust the actor  who has played that role for 12 years to comprehend the nuance of Dean's psyche and not reveal this moment accidentally along the way, so he didn't tell him. OR it wasn't planned at all from the jump. I'm going with the latter.

 

Me too. 

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10 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

<snip>

So given Jensen's alacrity with knowing what to play or NOT play as the case may be, I find it kind of stunning and illogical for Dabb to make a choice to hold that critical information from Jensen, until "Who We Are" was written.  I suspect the spin would be 'Well, I wanted it to be as authentic a reaction as possible from Jensen when Dean has the revelation that he hated his mother and needed to forgive her'. But, apparently Dabb didn't trust the actor  who has played that role for 12 years to comprehend the nuance of Dean's psyche and not reveal this moment accidentally along the way, so he didn't tell him. OR it wasn't planned at all from the jump. I'm going with the latter.

Andrew Dabb wrote some decent scripts over the years, but as a showrunner? He blows. Nothing he does (or is revealed later to have done) would surprise me, most especially when it comes to Dean/Jensen.

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3 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Andrew Dabb wrote some decent scripts over the years, but as a showrunner? He blows. Nothing he does (or is revealed later to have done) would surprise me, most especially when it comes to Dean/Jensen.

I really wish I knew just how involved Singer is in the storytelling part of the show. Like maybe Singer is more to blame but I just don't know, so I'll start blaming both of them LOL But I suppose I should also give credit when it's something I don't hate.
 

Being a fan can be so....capricious at times. LOL

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55 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

So given Jensen's alacrity with knowing what to play or NOT play as the case may be, I find it kind of stunning and illogical for Dabb to make a choice to hold that critical information from Jensen, until "Who We Are" was written.  I suspect the spin would be 'Well, I wanted it to be as authentic a reaction as possible from Jensen when Dean has the revelation that he hated his mother and needed to forgive her'. But, apparently Dabb didn't trust the actor  who has played that role for 12 years to comprehend the nuance of Dean's psyche and not reveal this moment accidentally along the way, so he didn't tell him. OR it wasn't planned at all from the jump. I'm going with the latter.

Or Dabb both respected and trusted Jensen didn't need him to explain it all to him? Which, as it turns out, he didn't.

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I suspect that the truth is somewhere in between "the writers brought Mary back as a shock and had no particular arc in mind" and "the writers brought Mary back specifically so Dean could forgive her (and just never bothered to tell Jensen)." 

Bringing Mary back was, IMO, pretty clearly intended to generate an emotional arc for Dean, born out of conflict between Dean and Mary, and also the conflict between Dean's idealized memory of his mother and the more complicated reality of establishing a real relationship, especially under such fraught circumstances. But the "I hate you...I forgive you" moment seems to me likely to have grown organically out of that conflict as the season progressed, rather than to have been the intentional end goal of the arc.

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But, apparently Dabb didn't trust the actor  who has played that role for 12 years to comprehend the nuance of Dean's psyche and not reveal this moment accidentally along the way, so he didn't tell him. OR it wasn't planned at all from the jump. I'm going with the latter.

I think the thought of such a storyline never entered Dabb`s mind but Berens was the writer of this episode so at least the scene itself should have had intentional content as he has written it. But apparently even that wasn`t the case. He just wrote... something and managed a lucky shot by accident. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

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5 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think the thought of such a storyline never entered Dabb`s mind but Berens was the writer of this episode so at least the scene itself should have had intentional content as he has written it. But apparently even that wasn`t the case. He just wrote... something and managed a lucky shot by accident. Well, even a broken clock is right twice a day. 

+Two dozen

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9 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I suspect that the truth is somewhere in between "the writers brought Mary back as a shock and had no particular arc in mind" and "the writers brought Mary back specifically so Dean could forgive her (and just never bothered to tell Jensen)." 

Bringing Mary back was, IMO, pretty clearly intended to generate an emotional arc for Dean, born out of conflict between Dean and Mary, and also the conflict between Dean's idealized memory of his mother and the more complicated reality of establishing a real relationship, especially under such fraught circumstances. But the "I hate you...I forgive you" moment seems to me likely to have grown organically out of that conflict as the season progressed, rather than to have been the intentional end goal of the arc.

I tend to think this is closest to the truth, except I don't think Dean had many, if any, illusions left about his mother, beyond believing that she was a good person who loved her family. The whole 'I'm not just your mom' thing fell entirely flat for me, as I don't think Dean ever asked or expecter her to be. He asked her to 'be our mom', not to just be our mom. Phew, sorry, apparently I'm still raging over that one.

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I think that the storyline was probably conceived of and described as something like "Dean comes to terms with Mary's reappearance."

I do think that beats like "Mary isn't really like Dean's memory of her -- and vice versa" and "Dean feels betrayed when Mary moves out," etc, were probably at least somewhat beat out when they created a basic outline for the storyline.

But IMO producing anything more nitty gritty than that ahead of time would be (or would have been) overkill and counterproductive anyway. Like do I think they scripted out Dean's head!scape speech beforehand or something? No way. Nor do I think that they should have. The story does need some room to breathe.

I actually think the season was pretty clearly and thoughtfully plotted. If anything, IMO it was over-plotted. I just don't think they always did a good job creating an organic/interesting journey from one plot point to the next.

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38 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I think that the storyline was probably conceived of and described as something like "Dean comes to terms with Mary's reappearance."

I do think that beats like "Mary isn't really like Dean's memory of her -- and vice versa" and "Dean feels betrayed when Mary moves out," etc, were probably at least somewhat beat out when they created a basic outline for the storyline.

But IMO producing anything more nitty gritty than that ahead of time would be (or would have been) overkill and counterproductive anyway. Like do I think they scripted out Dean's head!scape speech beforehand or something? No way. Nor do I think that they should have. The story does need some room to breathe.

I actually think the season was pretty clearly and thoughtfully plotted. If anything, IMO it was over-plotted. I just don't think they always did a good job creating an organic/interesting journey from one plot point to the next.

For me, the fail with Mary is in disregarding pretty much everything we'd learned about her over 11 seasons, except that she was a good hunter, and a badass woman. Even in that, she couldn't just be good, they had to make her better/tougher/more badass than everyone else, including her sons. I was completely on board with her needing time to adjust to being alive and having missed thirty years of their lives, but they went too far. Like, 21 episodes too far, and then expect it to be all hunky-dory because she admits that she 'seemed' cold in episode 22. I enjoyed 12x22 & 12x23 in and of themselves, but I still don't like the character and don't consider her redeemed. I am not nearly as forgiving as Dean. :P

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5 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, the fail with Mary is in disregarding pretty much everything we'd learned about her over 11 seasons, except that she was a good hunter, and a badass woman. Even in that, she couldn't just be good, they had to make her better/tougher/more badass than everyone else, including her sons. I was completely on board with her needing time to adjust to being alive and having missed thirty years of their lives, but they went too far. Like, 21 episodes too far, and then expect it to be all hunky-dory because she admits that she 'seemed' cold in episode 22. I enjoyed 12x22 & 12x23 in and of themselves, but I still don't like the character and don't consider her redeemed. I am not nearly as forgiving as Dean. :P

I don't feel like the show disregarded too much previous info about Mary, since a) we didn't have all that much of it and b) the circumstances in which we were seeing her were so wildly different. So it is plausible for me that she could have been an awesome, loving mother to little Dean, but totally ill-equipped to establish a relationship with her adult sons - which led her to escape into hunting. I know some people saw the revelation in Asa Fox that she had continued hunting after Dean's birth as a retcon, but I didn't have a problem with it, because it didn't seem like it was a regular thing, and I don't think the fact that there was at least one occasion in which she went on a hunt makes her a bad mom. Plenty of parents have jobs that put themselves in danger.

I do agree with the rest of your post. They did oversell Mary as a super badass hunter, as by rights she really shouldn't have been anything special. I'm sure Samuel saw to it that she had some training as a kid, but it doesn't seem that she was ever close to a full-time hunter; she left with John at age nineteen, and evidently had been resisting the hunter identity even before that. She presumably went on some hunts as a teenager, but as the Campbells seemed to have at least some sort of home base in Lawrence, I doubt that she had even as much field experience as Sam and Dean had by nineteen, and probably didn't take very many cases between then and her death.

I also agree that they overdid it with Mary avoiding her sons. That Mary would need some space and struggle to relate to her adult sons is totally understandable. It is a lot less understandable that she apparently never followed up on the conversation at the end of Asa Fox where Sam essentially said "we get that you need to do you, but maybe we can meet up for lunch sometimes." Or, for that matter, on the reconciliation with Dean at the end of the Raid, which should have set the stage for at least a minimal, consistent, relationship, whereas it seems like that never happened. 

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22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

For me, the fail with Mary is in disregarding pretty much everything we'd learned about her over 11 seasons, except that she was a good hunter, and a badass woman. Even in that, she couldn't just be good, they had to make her better/tougher/more badass than everyone else, including her sons. I was completely on board with her needing time to adjust to being alive and having missed thirty years of their lives, but they went too far. Like, 21 episodes too far, and then expect it to be all hunky-dory because she admits that she 'seemed' cold in episode 22. I enjoyed 12x22 & 12x23 in and of themselves, but I still don't like the character and don't consider her redeemed. I am not nearly as forgiving as Dean. :P

I agree with a lot of this.  I think they went way overboard with the distant Mary stuff.  The Mary we met in flashbacks was a good hunter, yes, but also a full individual who didn't necessarily want to be a hunter and who was totally going to embrace motherhood.  I'm fine with her having a strange relationship with Dean, who is suddenly an adult, and Sam, who probably doesn't even have real memories of her.  But then they go and make her this cold assassin who is suddenly the greatest hunter who ever lived, and the way they presented her, it's as if she'd have run off and abandoned her family whether Azazel lit her up or not.  And not to be mean, but I don't think Smith brought any nuance to the role to help the writers along.

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When still-brainwashed Mary tried to bait Dean by asking him if she was maybe too different from the Mary he knew, I thought: this Season, not really.  Then she followed it up with "or too much the same?" and I was like: yup.  

I mean, was the brainwashed BMOL!puppet really supposed to be such a big shock to viewers? Granted, she was more murder-y than before but overall I didn`t see a radically different character than for the previous episodes. That wasn`t so much Jekyll and Hyde as Hyde and Hyde on crack.

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42 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or Dabb both respected and trusted Jensen didn't need him to explain it all to him? Which, as it turns out, he didn't.

I'm talking about the idea that Dean's disconnect with Mary all season was because he needed to forgive her; that it always in play from the moment Mary was resurrected. I'm not saying  Jensen would have needed to know it from the beginning  to play that scene.  I'm saying that because of what Jensen said about his convo with Berens is that it's not at all clear to me that it was planned this way from the jump.

Quote

 

Jensen: "For the entire season, I, Jensen had a hard time processing that, for Dean. And I think it kind of read that Dean ..was almost un...he just didn't he didn't..he was unsure about the relationship with Mom. And he didn't know why...and I didn't know why. And it was kind of weird....and I love Samantha to death, I think she is one of the sweetest people on the planet. Uh...but as far as from a character standpoint, like there was kind of a friction..or not even a friction...There wasn't a..a. it wasn't cohesive.  And for me, that troubled me because I like to find that connection with another character. And I think that is one of the things that drives the show the way it does...is the relationships between the brothers, the relationship between Dean and Cas, the relationships between Crowley even, all of those relationships have a place. And they have some sort of a cohesiveness. And I struggled to find that with Mary. And it bothered me! And I couldn't understand why was I having such a difficult time finding that gel...finding that pocket with my mom. Uhhh. and making sense of what the Darkness had said at the end of last season.

And when I got the script for 22, and I read that scene, I was like 'Ahhh, there it is." That's what Dean needed the most was to forgive his mother.

And so uh, Robert Berens who wrote that script was on set that day, cause a lot of times at the end of the season the directors..er, the writers of the scripts will come up and visit set to watch their episodes get filmed. Umm. and it's at the end of the season because they don't have any any other scripts to write, because at the beginning of the season they''re already working on their next scripts and they've gotta write and they have work to do. 

Anyway, Bob Berens came up and he  was sitting behind the monitors and I walked up to him and said, "Hey, man, I gotta thank you for,  literally, clearing up the entire season for me with ..in respect to the Dean and Mary relationship".

And he's like  'How do you mean?". 

And where I say "I forgive you. ...I hate you and I love you...and I forgive you."

And he was like "What?"
I was like "Don't mess with me. That's tied into the last season"
And he was like..'uh hhh"

I don't know if he was messing with me but if that was a mistake that was the happiest accident I've ever ever experienced. Because for me that's what I played when I had that scene with Samantha. I was playing that. That this is why you came back. This is why and God and the Darkness gave you back to me. for this catharsis , this cathartic moment.  Uh. I don't know. I was very happy with that turn of the script.

 

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10 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I mean, was the brainwashed BMOL!puppet really supposed to be such a big shock to viewers? Granted, she was more murder-y than before but overall I didn`t see a radically different character than for the previous episodes. That wasn`t so much Jekyll and Hyde as Hyde and Hyde on crack.

Really? Mary subscribed to some ruthless hunting practices while with the BMOL, but we never saw her do anything remotely close to killing a bunch of hunters simply because they wouldn't tow the line. 

Being more ruthless than need be in killing monsters is a really far cry from assassinating innocents. Including innocent monsters, by the way, as while the BMOL's methods may have been too indiscriminate, we never saw Mary going after a "monster" who she knew had been living peacefully, like Garth. 

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Really? Mary subscribed to some ruthless hunting practices while with the BMOL, but we never saw her do anything remotely close to killing a bunch of hunters simply because they wouldn't tow the line. 

Being more ruthless than need be in killing monsters is a really far cry from assassinating innocents. Including innocent monsters, by the way, as while the BMOL's methods may have been too indiscriminate, we never saw Mary going after a "monster" who she knew had been living peacefully, like Garth. 

I said she was more murder-y but I meant the "cold fish" vibe. I got that from her all Season long and yet in the penultimate episode it was played as "look how shocking it is that Mary is so cold". Granted, I had no good will left for the character long before the Finale came on - and I didn`t think she was redeemed by it because I hate how this show does "redemption" - so her being amped up to 11 didn`t really make her any more horrible for me.

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29 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Really? Mary subscribed to some ruthless hunting practices while with the BMOL, but we never saw her do anything remotely close to killing a bunch of hunters simply because they wouldn't tow the line. 

Being more ruthless than need be in killing monsters is a really far cry from assassinating innocents. Including innocent monsters, by the way, as while the BMOL's methods may have been too indiscriminate, we never saw Mary going after a "monster" who she knew had been living peacefully, like Garth. 

Serious qusetion, did Mary know anything about Garth? Did she even know he was a werewolf? Or just a hunter on their hit list? It seems to me if non brainwashed Mary had been sent to kill Werewolf!Garth with her ray gun, she would have done so unless Garth was all HEY I know your sons.

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7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm talking about the idea that Dean's disconnect with Mary all season was because he needed to forgive her; that it always in play from the moment Mary was resurrected. I'm not saying  Jensen would have needed to know it from the beginning  to play that scene.  I'm saying that because of what Jensen said about his convo with Berens is that it's not at all clear to me that it was planned this way from the jump.

I was just responding to your question of whether they held back the information because they didn't trust Jensen enough to manage the information. Personally, I think them leaving it up to Jensen to decide for himself how much information he wants or needs, shows they clearly trust him. 

That said, I would doubt it that Dabb and Co. knew the reason Amara gave Mary back to Dean back at the beginning of the season. I think they just knew Dean had some unresolved issues with Mary and they'd play with it until they figured out exactly what it was Dean needed from Mary. But, even if they had known, I kinda think it would've been insulting to Jensen to sit him down and say, "We're bringing mom back because Dean needs to forgive her."

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13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I kinda think it would've been insulting to Jensen to sit him down and say, "We're bringing mom back because Dean needs to forgive her."

And why would it have been insulting to let an actor know where they are taking his character's story so the actor can plan how best to "sell it" consistently in his scenes throughout the season?

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5 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And why would it have been insulting to let an actor know where they are taking his character's story so the actor can plan how best to "sell it" consistently in his scenes throughout the season?

Because, as I said, I think it's best to let the actor decide how much information they need to know. Some actors prefer not to know anything more than their character knows.  Jensen's a smart guy and knows Dean probably better than the writers, best to let him decide if he needs to know something or not. If he asks, I'm quite certain they would tell him, but no need to set him down and lay it all out there for him if he doesn't.

For me, it's like when Jensen told Berens not to write "Dean cries" in the script. Putting it in the script like that means you don't trust the actor to find the emotion of the scene but instead must tell them what emotion to play.

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4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because, as I said, I think it's best to let the actor decide how much information they need to know. Some actors prefer not to know anything more than their character knows.  

And what makes you assume Jensen didn't want to know or didn't ask earlier? We found out quite a bit later that Jensen asked where the Dean/Amara storyline was going because he didn't understand what he was supposed to be portraying. That what you or I think Jensen should want to know or not want to know is in anyway indicative of what Jensen actually thinks is dreaming.

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46 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Serious qusetion, did Mary know anything about Garth? Did she even know he was a werewolf? Or just a hunter on their hit list? It seems to me if non brainwashed Mary had been sent to kill Werewolf!Garth with her ray gun, she would have done so unless Garth was all HEY I know your sons.

That may be true -- but I don't think defaulting to the assumption that monster = evil and/or a threat has been shown to be uncommon among hunters, and may not be all that unreasonable in most circumstances. People like Garth and his family, Lenore and her pack, and Benny are exceptions to the rule. When Sam and Dean become aware of those exceptions, they don't kill them simply for being monsters, but neither do they take a poll of the members of a vamp nest to determine whether or not every single one of them is actually a killer. The difference in the MOL approach is that a) because they have ways of tracking supernatural creatures that don't require following a trail of bodies, it is much more likely that they'll wind up killing innocents and b) even if they do find out that a monster isn't killing humans, they don't care.

We don't have any evidence that Mary would be on board with b) and it isn't clear that she has enough awareness of the existence of peaceful monsters to seriously consider a). I'll also note that when the BMOL sent Sam and Dean out on cases, those cases actually did wind up being instances of monsters dropping bodies. It wasn't like they said "the monster batsignal went out over a home in Iowa. Go eliminate the family immediately."  So it isn't clear to me if the missions Mary were sent out on were ones that should have in themselves raised red flags, especially since she doesn't have the experience with good monsters that Sam and Dean do.  Sam and Dean never raised that with her as a moral objection, either.

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13 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Because, as I said, I think it's best to let the actor decide how much information they need to know. Some actors prefer not to know anything more than their character knows.  Jensen's a smart guy and knows Dean probably better than the writers, best to let him decide if he needs to know something or not. If he asks, I'm quite certain they would tell him, but no need to set him down and lay it all out there for him if he doesn't.

For me, it's like when Jensen told Berens not to write "Dean cries" in the script. Putting it in the script like that means you don't trust the actor to find the emotion of the scene but instead must tell them what emotion to play.

I agree that on principle the writers probably do let Jensen decide how to play the character, but when Jensen literally thanks a writer for clearing up his character's arc 22 episodes into a 23 ep season, there seems to be a disconnect somewhere.

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21 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

And what makes you assume Jensen didn't want to know or didn't ask earlier?

Because Jensen himself said he had a disconnect all season about what was going on with him and Mary and couldn't figure out what Dean needed from Mary. Which indicates to me he didn't ask for clarification. If he had, and they didn't have any answer for him, then I don't think he would've been surprised by Berens' confusion. And, if he had asked for clarification and they told him, then he wouldn't have had the disconnect any longer. 

Edited by DittyDotDot
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I kinda think Jensen wouldn`t ask the writers about his character`s storyline for a Season because given the givens I think that would be awkward as hell. Even the story he described with Berens sounds awkward. Do you, as an actor, really want to be slapped in the face by the writer being so disinterested they have no clue what you`re talking about? Keep the fantasy intact and keep quiet, I say.

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6 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I kinda think Jensen wouldn`t ask the writers about his character`s storyline for a Season because given the givens I think that would be awkward as hell. Even the story he described with Berens sounds awkward. Do you, as an actor, really want to be slapped in the face by the writer being so disinterested they have no clue what you`re talking about? Keep the fantasy intact and keep quiet, I say.

Ok. I'll go with that!!

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I find the biggest problem in the writers room is lack of communication.  I don't feel like the writers talk to each other.

I tend to think they get together every so often and are given a vague outline like Mary's coming back and she has trouble connecting with her grown sons.  Then I think each writer is left to interpret that how they want.

This is the first season where I felt like I couldn't connect with Dean.  Even last season with the whole Amara storyline, Jensen was as confused as I was, but it was okay because I figured Dean was just as confused as I was.  I could relate to that. But this season,  I was never sure what I was supposed to be seeing from him.     With regards to hunting, Mary, Lucifer, Kelly, etc.  Valuim Dean has to be the most apt description of how I felt watching him this season.  (I don't mean that in Jerk/Bitch, but just more of a description).

I'm glad it worked for Jensen,  but I don't think it was anything more than a happy accident.   Mostly because I didn't get that vibe from Dean.  I didn't feel he was keeping her at arms length in the first few episodes. I felt like he was trying to find common ground.  Things were awkward, and I understood Mary needing space..  Even afterward Dean tried to establish boundaries for the,   Yes, Dean and Mary grew more distant  as the season went on, but it came across on screen mostly because she was rejecting him, not because he needed to forgive her. 

If Berens had planned it, but didn't tell Jensen, then there was no reason to keep it from the other writers so they can be consistent in their approach, and I didn't see that at all. 

Don't get me wrong, I can easily see it as a motivation but its not one I think the writers were successful in getting across.

Edited by ILoveReading
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4 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I find the biggest problem in the writers room is lack of communication.  I don't feel like the writers talk to each other.

I tend to think they get together every so often and are given a vague outline like Mary's coming back and she has trouble connecting with her grown sons.  Then I think each writer is left to interpret that how they want.

This is the first season where I felt like I couldn't connect with Dean.  Even last season with the whole Amara storyline, Jensen was as confused as I was, but it was okay because I figured Dean was just as confused as I was.  I could relate to that. But this season,  I was never sure what I was supposed to be seeing from him.     With regards to hunting, Mary, Lucifer, Kelly, etc.  Valuim Dean has to be the most apt description of how I felt watching him this season.  (I don't mean that in Jerk/Bitch, but just more of a description).

I'm glad it worked for Jensen,  but I don't think it was anything more than a happy accident.   Mostly because I didn't get that vibe from Dean.  I didn't feel he was keeping her at arms length in the first few episodes. I felt like he was trying to find common ground.  Things were awkward, and I understood Mary needing space..  Even afterward Dean tried to establish boundaries for the,   Yes, Dean and Mary grew more distant  as the season went on, but it came across on screen mostly because she was rejecting him, not because he needed to forgive her. 

If Berens had planned it, but didn't tell Jensen, then there was no reason to keep it from the other writers so they can be consistent in their approach, and I didn't see that at all. 

Don't get me wrong, I can easily see it as a motivation but its not one I think the writers were successful in getting across.

The whole thing reminds me of the disconnect between episodes by different writers on how a soulless Sam would act. There was no consistency between writers. Seems like the showrunner even admitted that but my memory may be wrong there. It has been obvious a number of times that there is to little coordination between writers. That's the showrunners fault in my opinion.

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9 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

The whole thing reminds me of the disconnect between episodes by different writers on how a soulless Sam would act. There was no consistency between writers. Seems like the showrunner even admitted that but my memory may be wrong there. It has been obvious a number of times that there is to little coordination between writers. That's the showrunners fault in my opinion.

Yeah, the consistency on nephilim this year was pretty appalling (even if we ignore the nephilim we saw in season 8, because it was presumably not an archangel's kid).  If Cas thought Lily Sunder was alive after having a nephilim, then why was Dagon saying Kelly would die a few episodes later?  I think to myself that maybe Dagon, being a demon, is just being an ass, so I can make it sort of make sense to me, but then Cas actually tells Kelly that having the nephilim will kill her in a different episode.  What the what?

Edited by CluelessDrifter
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2 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, the consistency on nephilim this year was pretty appalling (even if we ignore the nephilim we saw in season 8, because it was presumably not an archangel's kid).  If Cas thought Lily Sunder was alive after having a nephilim, then why was Dagon saying Kelly would die a few episodes later?  I think to myself that maybe Dagon, being a demon is just being an ass to make it sort of make sense to me, but then Cas actually tells Kelly that having the nephilim will kill her in The Future.  What the what?

The showrunner should be making sure the scripts/ writers are integrated. I actual blame most of the writing problems on the showrunners.

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17 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, the consistency on nephilim this year was pretty appalling (even if we ignore the nephilim we saw in season 8, because it was presumably not an archangel's kid).  If Cas thought Lily Sunder was alive after having a nephilim, then why was Dagon saying Kelly would die a few episodes later?  I think to myself that maybe Dagon, being a demon is just being an ass to make it sort of make sense to me, but then Cas actually tells Kelly that having the nephilim will kill her in a different episode.  What the what?

Speaking of Kelly dying.

Why was she even in one piece after giving birth and lying in beautiful repose with her hands clasped and her eyes open?

Like why wasn't she basically annihilated after giving birth to part human, part archangel wave of celestial intent? Did Mary do that? Is that why she didn't show up the fight until later with the Enochian brass knuckles?

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Speaking of Kelly dying.

Why was she even in one piece after giving birth and lying in beautiful repose with her hands clasped and her eyes open?

Like why wasn't she basically annihilated after giving birth to part human, part archangel wave of celestial intent? Did Mary do that? Is that why she didn't show up the fight until later with the Enochian brass knuckles?

Mary must've done it after she woke up from being knocked out?  I don't think Jack did it.

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3 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Mary must've done it after she woke up from being knocked out?  I don't think Jack did it.

So, Mary who knew there was a Lucifer problem, decided that after Kelly birthed the Spawnifer, took the time to make her look all pretty instead of going into the fight? Eh, I hope not but I can see that happening LOL

I like the idea of Jackifer doing it more. And he was big enough to do it.

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11 minutes ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Mary must've done it after she woke up from being knocked out?  I don't think Jack did it.

Wouldn't Mary have closed her eyes though? And didn't the light flash in the room (presumably his moment of entry into the world) after Mary & Lucifer Swan Song'd into the glowing vagina of doom?

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Wouldn't Mary have closed her eyes though? And didn't the light flash in the room (presumably his moment of entry into the world) after Mary & Lucifer Swan Song'd into the glowing vagina of doom?

No, Mary was in the room when that happened. She blown back and knocked unconscious by the force of the birth.

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6 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I kinda think Jensen wouldn`t ask the writers about his character`s storyline for a Season because given the givens I think that would be awkward as hell. Even the story he described with Berens sounds awkward. Do you, as an actor, really want to be slapped in the face by the writer being so disinterested they have no clue what you`re talking about? Keep the fantasy intact and keep quiet, I say.

Considering that without said actor the show wouldn't be able to continue the writer really should show interest in enlightening the actor when he questions the motivation of the character that he's bringing to life. Honestly given the fact that Jensen and Jared basically are the show they could really push their weight around a little but they don't seem like the type of guys that would want to use their influence that way. Dammit!

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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No, Mary was in the room when that happened. She blown back and knocked unconscious by the force of the birth.

There was the big explosion of light that knocked Mary back, but then the next we see of her, she's stepping up to Lucifer with the magic brass knuckles. So did she see the Sproutifer, presumably birthed as a baby, and left him there? Or had he already grown and skedaddled into the other room before she woke up? Seems weird Mary would arrange her so prettily and then fail to close her eyes. The lights in the house start flickering bright behind Dean & Sam after Mary & Luci disappear, and Sam runs inside to find Kelly dead - he closes her eyes.

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10 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

There was the big explosion of light that knocked Mary back, but then the next we see of her, she's stepping up to Lucifer with the magic brass knuckles. So did she see the Sproutifer, presumably birthed as a baby, and left him there? Or had he already grown and skedaddled into the other room before she woke up? Seems weird Mary would arrange her so prettily and then fail to close her eyes. The lights in the house start flickering bright behind Dean & Sam after Mary & Luci disappear, and Sam runs inside to find Kelly dead - he closes her eyes.

Yeah I don't think Mary did it, so that really leaves Sproutifer or some other entity? Maybe Sproutifer did it and then went into the nursery? Mary was so stunned that she didn't bother to look for Sproutifer?

OHHHH what if there is actually a twin!?? The doctor was going to tell her something about the fetus but then Dagon whammied him and made him say something else.

DUN DUN DUN. I'm calling it now. It's twins. One twin cleaned up Kelly, left her there, left Sproutifer in the corner and took off.

Maybe Asmodeus showed up to do it and left?

Edited by catrox14
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The idea of an infant concerned about the tidiness of its mother's corpse...

I dunno, man. I dunno.

;)

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