S12.E22: Who We Are/S12.E23 All Along the Watchtower

[bettername2come]

4 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I'm telling ya, this Alternate Earth can open a door for a crossover with Arrow.

Time travel, dead girlfriend, tragically killed parents, saving the world after they put it in danger, years in hell, boys who cry pretty. They'd fit in perfectly in the Arrowverse.

 

Do we really think Rowena's dead? I assumed she wasn't because we never saw a body, but now I'm thinking about how Kim Rhodes said she wouldn't appear if they wanted to kill off Jody and wondering if something similar happened with Ruth Connell.

[Idahoforspn]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

From a meta perspective, Shepard making his choice and J2 being okay makes sense to me.  The guy has a TON of credits, can get work easily, and may have also felt the story played out. Plus he got to be a BDH with his self-sacrifice.  A "good" end for Crowley (except for the sheer number of other deaths). 

Except as I've said before, Rowena death was overshadowed by Crowley's and Crowley's was overshadowed by Cas's. I doubt Crowley's death will get anywhere close to the attention as Cas's at Jibcon. And Rowena. Just kind of insulting to the actors who gave so many years to SPN. 

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Ruth DID make a tweet, somewhat a joke about it right at the moment it happened:

But, if she was really upset... I think she'd be silent.  I just feel like she either thinks she's coming back or has known for so long and moved on that she's okay with it.  I'm hoping it's the former, not the later.

And there's no way, IMO, that Misha is off the show.  OUR Cas may (or maynot) be dead, but Misha will be back IMO. 

[catrox14]

Okay I've rewatched all the Cas things and I am now becoming increasingly  convinced that was alt!Cas who died.

We don't now how much time passes  from when they go into the AU and come back but enough time passed for Cas and Alt!Bobby to have a conversation about how things were different in their worlds.

 

Quote

Wait a second.

Demons have horns now? Whole new world, Sam.

Usually I gun down flyboys on sight.

But, uh, he looked different.

Wasn't wearing a necklace made out of baby ears, for one thing.

We got to talking about where I came from and our two worlds.

[ Thunderclap ] From what he says, pretty much peaches and cream on your side.

 

Theories:

Alt!Cas meets real!Cas and learns about Kelly and he decides that the Nephilim will save his world from the Apocalypse 2.0. That's why he's so freaked out about Lucifer because now that's throwing a wrench in his plan to take Lucifer's child back to his world where he's dreaming of peace, paradise, no war. 

He has Cas on lockdown, downloads some of his memories and poses as Cas in the real world to get close to Kelly to take the Nephelim back to the AU. That's why he keeps looking out the window at the rift because he's worried that Cas will come back through. That would explain  why he's just OFF enough for Dean, Cas, Kelly and Crowley to not notice because it's such a high stress situation that they might not notice.  Like I thought it was weird how harsh and annoyed Cas was when he decided he had to heal Dean, even though Dean didn't ask him to do it. Cas always volunteers to heal Dean and it's never with irritation, even as Dean rejects that help at times, but he doesn't have an attitude about it. Yes, Cas was under stress so maybe he was being annoyed, but I could also see where an Alt!Cas is like "Shit, my plan is falling apart. Lucifer showed up. These guys showed up and now I have to help them kill Lucifer in this world". But it doesn't go as planned because he's in a different universe and things don't work the same. Like maybe the angel blade from our world can't kill our Lucifer in their world but can kill him in our world.

OR

I'm also thinking maybe Heaven itself has rifts because of the nephilim and maybe Alt!Cas was swapped out in Heaven for the real Cas for some reason and he's on lockdown because of the war. I dunno man, I'm really hoping for this being doppelganger!Cas from the AU sent to get the Nephilim but the Winchesters and Crowley and Lucifer threw a wrench into the mix

That would explain why Dean said he did not recognize the guy staring back at him when Cas came back from Heaven. It would also explain why Cas was willing to go in and steal the Colt and give Dean back a mix tape when our Cas surely knows how those things work in this world.

But I feel much better about OUR Cas being alive somewhere.

[MysteryGuest]

It's interesting how we all see things so differently.  I didn't think that Sam was doing anything in his speech other than taking responsibility for making a bad decision.  By saying "we" rather than "I", the assumption would have been that both Sam and Dean had made that error in judgment, which wasn't the case.  Even though Dean did agree to go along with Sam's request, he did it for Sam.  I personally thought it was big of Sam to put that on himself, and that's a sufficient "I'm sorry" from Sam to Dean, as far as I'm concerned.  

I also loved how Dean showed confidence in Sam after that and told him that he could be a leader.  Sam wanted Dean to go with him, even if he was at less than full capacity.  I think Sam questioned his own ability to lead at that moment, but Dean had faith in him to do what needed to be done.  I thought that was another great brother moment.

[SueB]

Nevermind.

Edited May 19, 2017 by SueB
moved to a different thread.

[FlickChick]

11 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Okay I've rewatched all the Cas things and I am now becoming increasingly  convinced that was alt!Cas who died.

We don't now how much time passes  from when they go into the AU and come back but enough time passed for Cas and Alt!Bobby to have a conversation about how things were different in their worlds.

 

 

Theories:

Alt!Cas meets real!Cas and learns about Kelly and he decides that the Nephilim will save his world from the Apocalypse 2.0. That's why he's so freaked out about Lucifer because now that's throwing a wrench in his plan to take Lucifer's child back to his world where he's dreaming of peace, paradise, no war. 

He has Cas on lockdown, downloads some of his memories and poses as Cas in the real world to get close to Kelly to take the Nephelim back to the AU. That's why he keeps looking out the window at the rift because he's worried that Cas will come back through. That would explain  why he's just OFF enough for Dean, Cas, Kelly and Crowley to not notice because it's such a high stress situation that they might not notice.  Like I thought it was weird how harsh and annoyed Cas was when he decided he had to heal Dean, even though Dean didn't ask him to do it. Cas always volunteers to heal Dean and it's never with irritation, even as Dean rejects that help at times, but he doesn't have an attitude about it. Yes, Cas was under stress so maybe he was being annoyed, but I could also see where an Alt!Cas is like "Shit, my plan is falling apart. Lucifer showed up. These guys showed up and now I have to help them kill Lucifer in this world". But it doesn't go as planned because he's in a different universe and things don't work the same. Like maybe the angel blade from our world can't kill our Lucifer in their world but can kill him in our world.

OR

I'm also thinking maybe Heaven itself has rifts because of the nephilim and maybe Alt!Cas was swapped out in Heaven for the real Cas for some reason and he's on lockdown because of the war. I dunno man, I'm really hoping for this being doppelganger!Cas from the AU sent to get the Nephilim but the Winchesters and Crowley and Lucifer threw a wrench into the mix

That would explain why Dean said he did not recognize the guy staring back at him when Cas came back from Heaven. It would also explain why Cas was willing to go in and steal the Colt and give Dean back a mix tape when our Cas surely knows how those things work in this world.

But I feel much better about OUR Cas being alive somewhere.

Never thought of all that, but hope springs eternal! But I want OUR CAS back - REAL CAS with all his knowledge, love of humanity, love of Winchesters and everything else that is Cas.

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Never thought of all that, but hope springs eternal! But I want OUR CAS back - REAL CAS with all his knowledge, love of humanity, love of Winchesters and everything else that is Cas.

Exactly! I would be very sad if they killed Cass only to bring in an alternate Cass that wasn't Cass. That would be a very poor trick to play on the audience who has invested the last eight years in Cass as a character.

Edited May 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[tessathereaper]

9 hours ago, Boopsahoy said:

 

I didn't get that feeling at all. This was Sam manning up for making a bad decision. He was apologizing for wanting to follow the BMOL instead of being a leader. I had no problems at all with it. I felt he totally apologized to everyone including Dean.

I also actually liked that Sam got the raid and Dean got that wonderful emotional scene where again his love saves someone.

I don't really feel it was an apology or manning up - I'm sorry I allowed myself to follow instead of being the leader?  His decision with the BMOLs was bad judgment, plain and simple, imo.  Looking for an easy fix to something that quite simply doesn't work that way and in a way that even went against their own basic beliefs about not all monsters being evil.  It wasn't because he chose to follow the BMOLs instead of being a leader, it was because he was looking for a quick and easy out, again.  LOL It's like being asked in a job interview "What are your negative qualities?" and spouting "Well, I've been told I work too hard".  It's not really a "negative" quality in that context and IMO neither was Sam's apology "I apologize for following instead of being the leader I am".  

How about something more along the lines of "I apologize for listening to the men of letters instead of my brother Dean who once again knew they were bad news right from the start and who tried to protect me from my bad decisions by not ditching me when he found out I had tricked him into working for them".   There were a lot of ways they could have done that whole rallying of the troops thing by making it more of a group effort, even with the excuse of Dean being injured.  His leg is injured - suddenly his tongue doesn't work either?  How about them both presenting the idea to the group but with Sam just being the one to go because you know Dean's injured?  

How does saying "Me and my brother...no I...I called you here because people our people are being slaughtered...the British Men of Letters came (stuff about their flashy tech etc and how most of those hunters had the good sense to turn them down)...but I didn't", qualify as owning up to much of anything, by mentioning it in passing on the way to telling them he wants them to "follow me"?  He's presenting himself as the lone leader (who oh by the way made a mistake in judgment ) and then proceeds to talk about what the men of letters of did with no mention of his own part whatever that might be while Dean literally sits there saying and doing nothing like some lapdog sidekick.

Nor do I think Mary's deal really affected Sam more in the long run so the idea that Dean HAD to talk about how the deal affected specifically Sam(with the implication that Dean's suffering wouldn't have gotten to her, but Sam's would so that is what she needed to hear?) - Sam wasn't anymore affected by the deal than the rest of them until he was 22 years old - then yes his girlfriend got killed and he briefly got some psychic powers from them but other than that Dean's life was affected every bit as much by what happened as Sam's was and in some ways he got the brunt of John's worst, which was also a result of what happened to her.  Sam wasn't tortured in Hell because of Mary's decisions, he didn't lose his soul because of Mary's decision - Dean and Sam were BOTH vessels for Michael and Lucifer respectively and Mary's deal affected them both equally in that way because it was based on their family lineage(and Mary wouldn't have married John if she hadn't made the deal because John would have been dead).  

In some ways one could say Dean's sojourn to Hell was perhaps even more directly affected by Mary's decision given a big part of it was based on the massive damage he'd suffered emotionally due to his treatment and his life after her death.

I don't think Dean talking about his feelings regarding Sam is really Dean talking about himself, he's focusing on Sam and how he feels what she did did to Sam and then about how he felt he'd failed in his job, admittedly unfair, of protecting him.  Dean talking about Sam is not Dean talking about how he feels about what happened to himself.

Edited May 19, 2017 by tessathereaper

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, rue721 said:

Yes! I thought that's where they were going when Doom!Bobby said that Doom!Mary had died 10 years ago, but Doom!John died way, way back in the day...until it turned out that there had been no Doom!Sam and Dean

Maybe there was a doom!Dean we  don't know about yet. That might explain there was so much focus on Sam in that scene with "Cas" (cause I'm not sure that was our Cas) saying 'You were never born so you couldn't save the world'

It's unclear what the timeline is in the AU. If it's 2018 for instance in the AU, then John dying 40 years ago would be 1978. Dean was born in January 1979. Maybe John died in late 1978 just before Dean was born. That's roughly 40 years ago. 

I was thinking back to Song Remains the Same and how Mary was pregnant with Dean before she and John got married. Maybe in the AU, Mary raised Dean alone under the surname of Campbell so alt!Bobby doesn't know the name Dean Winchester. Or maybe Mary didn't think she could raise Dean alone in that world so she gave him up for adoption and he was raised by someone else under a different name....Oh the plot bunnies are running amok in my brain right now. LOL

I don't know if I really think that is true, but it's not that far out there with this AU now.

22 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Never thought of all that, but hope springs eternal! But I want OUR CAS back - REAL CAS with all his knowledge, love of humanity, love of Winchesters and everything else that is Cas.

Oh I agree. I'm looking for ways for OUR Cas to be alive and well so we can get him back at some point! I don't want an alt!Cas around forever.  Unless of course it's Future!Cas cause he's awesome. LOL

Edited May 19, 2017 by catrox14

[companionenvy]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking back to Song Remains the Same and how Mary was pregnant with Dean before she and John got married. Maybe in the AU, Mary raised Dean alone under the surname of Campbell so alt!Bobby doesn't know the name Dean Winchester. Or maybe Mary didn't think she could raise Dean alone in that world so she gave him up for adoption and he was raised by someone else under a different name....Oh the plot bunnies are running amok in my brain right now. LOL

I'm pretty sure that isn't right. The Song Remains the Same happened several years after In the Beginning, so I assume John and Mary were already married. Of course, there's no reason it had to go down in the same way in the alt-verse.

[sigmaforce86]

I get what everyone is saying now.  My original thought was Lucifer's son (are we calling him Jack?) resurrects Cas as a thank you for keeping Kelly safe.  But I like the AltCas idea - so what many of you are speculating is when he saw someone in the other world and said "You?" it wasn't Bobby he saw but himself?  It's an interesting idea.   The only downside is if Cas is alive in the other world AND they bring him back it likely means bringing back Mary and Lucifer to and I was OK with ending her time on the show.  She wasn't a terrible character but I never fully warmed to her.

There was a lot to like, especially in the first half.  Both Sam and Dean got their own heartfelt soliloquies and we have a satisfying end to the BMOL.  Part two dragged a bit although seeing Bobby again makes up for a lot, I love that they keep finding ways to bring him back.  And it was more to set up next season than to wrap up any story lines from this year.  Considering it's the season 12 finale where most shows don't last half that long they do at least know how to keep the stories and surprises going.

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking back to Song Remains the Same and how Mary was pregnant with Dean before she and John got married.

I had to go check to be sure, but John and Mary were married in The Song Remains the Same. 

Quote

In 1973, after Azazel killed John, Mary made a deal with in order to resurrect him. This involved her granting him access to her home ten years hence. On August 19, 1975 Mary and John eloped, in Reno. Five years later Mary would give birth to Dean on January 24, 1979, with Sam following on May 2, 1983.

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Mary_Winchester

However, it all could've went down differently in the alternate universe. I didn't really catch on to the 40 years part, but for some reason I thought they were implying this was the universe where Mary didn't make the deal with Yellow Eyes, so John stayed dead and Dean and Sam were never born. But, it's hard to tell with the little information they gave us.

Edited May 19, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Locutus]

I'm really confused. My DVR cut out right when Crowley went fron rat to ground, and a hand coming up through the ground was the last thing I saw. What happened after that exactly??

[catrox14]

29 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I'm pretty sure that isn't right. The Song Remains the Same happened several years after In the Beginning, so I assume John and Mary were already married. Of course, there's no reason it had to go down in the same way in the alt-verse

II wasn't thinking at all about In the Beginning. For some reason I always think they aren't yet married in Song Remains the Same but are living together. MY BAD. 20 lashes with a wet noodle for me. 

That said, that doesn't change anything else in my alternate scenario other than them being married. AU!John still died 40 years ago in either 1977 or 1978. Give or take a year in the AU or Bobby just rounding up there is plenty of room for AU!Mary to have had AU!Dean within the year of John dying and not feeling like she could raise him on her own for reasons or she gave him her last name instead of John's for reasons. 

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, Locutus said:

I'm really confused. My DVR cut out right when Crowley went fron rat to ground, and a hand coming up through the ground was the last thing I saw. What happened after that exactly??

The short of it?

• Crowley went hat-in-hand to Sam and Dean. They eventually decided to try and lock Lucifer back in Hell and Crowley would seal all the gates forever.
• Meanwhile, Cass and Kelly went diaper shopping and upon their return the spawn created a portal to an alternate reality. Cass just had to touch it--because that's usually a good idea, right--and found himself in a universe where Sam and Dean hadn't averted the apocalypse. It's a reality where Heaven and Hell were in a constant state of war while the few humans that survived tried to do what they could. Bobby is one who survived, but he wasn't our Bobby.
• Sam, Dean and Mary find Kelly because the spawn is causing weird shit to happen in the Pacific Northwest. They show up not long after Cass returns from the alternate universe.
• Kelly is in labor so Mary goes to "bond" with her over childbirth.
• Cass takes Sam and Dean to the alternate universe to have chat with Bobby. They hatch a plan to lure the Devil to the alternate universe and seal the spacial rift with the Devil on the other side. Crowley shows up just in time to give them the spell needed to close the rift.
• They lure the devil over by basically telling him to follow them--and the Devil being the overconfident asshat he is, follows them. There's a showdown where Dean shoots the Devil with a gun filled with angel blade bullets, but they don't really affect the devil.
• Crowley reveals the spell requires one last ingredient--a life--and sacrifices himself. Cass comes in and charges the Devil as Sam and Dean jump back out into our universe.
• There's a lot of waiting and then Cass jumps through the portal too, but the Devil jumps through and stabbs Cass. 
• The child-birthing over, Mary runs out to help them and ends up pushing herself and the Devil through the portal just as the portal closes.
• Cass lays dead on the ground, Dean is mourning and Sam runs in the house--I presumed to get the spawn to fix Cass--and the spawn is magically a full grown human with glowing yellow eyes. Go figure.

There was a lot more quipping and monologuing from the Devil and a couple nice character beats for our heroes, but that's pretty much the skinny.

BTW, you can watch the episode for free from the CW website.

Edited May 20, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MysteryGuest]

Out of everyone, I think Crowley got the best send off, which is why I think his character is truly gone for good. Mark has a lot going on right now, new baby, new band, concert gigs, etc.  He was given scenes to explain what his state of mind was, and he made a final sacrifice for TFW.  I think he's done.

Rowena didn't get much of anything, except a lingering look at her charred body.  While Ruth was popular, she hadn't been with the show as long as Cas and Crowley, so sadly, her death scene could have played off-screen.  While I feel a bit cheated not getting to see her again, I wouldn't have wanted to watch her die at the hands of Lucifer.  That seemed especially brutal.  I won't be completely shocked if she comes back somehow, but since they've already done that once with her character, I'm not sure they'd go there again.  

As for Cas, I think it's safe to say he's the most popular of the 3 with the majority of fans.  This was a fairly Cas-centric episode, but I'm not sure we got a death scene suitable for his status on the show.  So either next season will open with them burning Cas' body and mourning his death, or he's probably coming back.  To me, the most reasonable "save" for him would be the Nephilim.  Cas protected him, so he might save Cas in return.  This is the result I'm hoping for.  

Crowley's spell was twofold, I thought, and was intended to close the gates of Hell, along with closing the tear.  I'm just not sure whether it worked.  I hope at least the closing of Hell worked, because I would be perfectly happy not to have to deal with demons anymore.  They're boring, as are the angels.  And if they're trying to get back to basics before Heaven and Hell became such a big part of the show, then this really needed to be done.  If they bring Cas back, he could come back with no powers, which would be fine.  I just don't really want Misha back as someone else.

Whether they're all really and truly dead, or only just one or two of them, I'm going to assume they've been sworn to secrecy until next season begins.  Otherwise, it's not much of a cliffhanger.

Edited May 19, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[ahrtee]

7 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

It's interesting how we all see things so differently.  I didn't think that Sam was doing anything in his speech other than taking responsibility for making a bad decision.  By saying "we" rather than "I", the assumption would have been that both Sam and Dean had made that error in judgment, which wasn't the case.  Even though Dean did agree to go along with Sam's request, he did it for Sam.  I personally thought it was big of Sam to put that on himself, and that's a sufficient "I'm sorry" from Sam to Dean, as far as I'm concerned.  

31 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

How does saying "Me and my brother...no I...I called you here because people our people are being slaughtered...the British Men of Letters came (stuff about their flashy tech etc and how most of those hunters had the good sense to turn them down)...but I didn't", qualify as owning up to much of anything, by mentioning it in passing on the way to telling them he wants them to "follow me"?  He's presenting himself as the lone leader (who oh by the way made a mistake in judgment ) and then proceeds to talk about what the men of letters of did with no mention of his own part whatever that might be while Dean literally sits there saying and doing nothing like some lapdog sidekick.

Two different viewpoints; and mine is somewhere in the middle.

Yes, IA that Sam was taking responsibility for his bad decisions, and I applaud that.  He started out "my brother and I" and then changed to "I..." for the responsibility part, and I think that was just what was needed.  He didn't try to share or pass the blame, and that was important.  He probably should have started with that, saying how he was taken in by all their shiny gadgets, while other hunters weren't.  He didn't have to go into details or say anything like "I didn't listen to my big brother, and I was wrong."  That wouldn't serve any purpose at all (except maybe to appease some angry Dean fans.)  

But from there, Sam went into the explanation of the terrible things that the BMOL had done and why they need to stop them.   t was a powerful speech and, IMO, should have *included* Dean, not just Sam.  He seemed to be making it personal.   When Sam asked for help to fight the BMOL, he should have been asking them to help "us", not "me," which would have let the others know that Dean was still with him, no matter what.  They have always been a team, and the upcoming fight was something they *all* needed to do.  By couching it in terms of his own mistakes and asking the others to follow *him,* it came across to me as Sam (once again) trying for personal redemption, where he was trying to fix things he saw as his fault.

IMO, it would have been much more powerful to have Dean standing (or sitting) behind him to show his support while he talked about the the reasons they needed to fight and urging others to join THEM in the battle; and *then* Dean would stand up in front of the others and say, "no, you've got this, Sam.  I'm hurt and will be in the way.  You take the lead.  I trust you."  I think that would have sent a much better message to the hunters who might have been wary, rather than "why should we trust this guy just because he says he's sorry and is trying to make up for it?"

And yes, YMMV.

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I had to go check to be sure, but John and Mary were married in The Song Remains the Same. 

http://www.supernaturalwiki.com/index.php?title=Mary_Winchester

However, it all could've went down differently in the alternate universe. I didn't really catch on to the 40 years part, but for some reason I thought they were implying this was the universe where Mary didn't make the deal with Yellow Eyes, so John stayed dead and Dean and Sam were never born. But, it's hard to tell with the little information they gave us.

So the transcript say John's been dead over 40 years now. So maybe that's 41 years. or 45 years. If it's 45 years then Dean likely would not have been born. But like I said, give or take a year or two in an Apocalypse maybe the time is a little bit off. Maybe it's not even 2017 in the AU. Who knows!

I'm more curious why Azazel still killed her 10 years ago.

Quote

He's dead.
Been dead over 40 years now.
Only reason I know about him is this Hunter I ran with, Mary Campbell.
You get a few pints of shine into her, and she always told the same story about the man she loved -- John Winchester.
[ Thunderclap ] Azazel killed her about 10 years ago.
Cass, what the hell is this? This is a world where you were never born.
It's a world you never saved.

[gonzosgirrl]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

<snip>

Oh I agree. I'm looking for ways for OUR Cas to be alive and well so we can get him back at some point! I don't want an alt!Cas around forever.  Unless of course it's Future!Cas cause he's awesome. LOL

I am trying to remember if there was any point after Dean & Sam arrived at the cottage that Cas & Sam were alone? The thinking being that maybe Sam knew whatever plan Cas had involving this newly discovered rift - and that's why he pulled Dean out so quickly when Cas went after Luci. Sam looked duly upset at Cas's 'death' but not stricken down by it like Dean. He was able to leave them to go in the house after Sproutifer. Maybe he knows more? There was this rumored big decision that Sam comes to, and I honestly didn't feel becoming a 'leader' was it.

Edited May 19, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[rue721]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Maybe there was a doom!Dean we  don't know about yet. That might explain there was so much focus on Sam in that scene with "Cas" (cause I'm not sure that was our Cas) saying 'You were never born so you couldn't save the world'

It's unclear what the timeline is in the AU. If it's 2018 for instance in the AU, then John dying 40 years ago would be 1978. Dean was born in January 1979. Maybe John died in late 1978 just before Dean was born. That's roughly 40 years ago.

Yeah, even when I was writing that, I was thinking that maybe Doom!Sam and Dean do exist.

For one, we shouldn't necessarily trust Doom!Bobby's timeline. He might have gotten the timeline a little wrong, or maybe our universe lags behind the altverse. They might be in "the future" (aka, 2025 or 2030) while we're in 2017. Time might or might not move faster there, but regardless, the timelines might still be dichotomous.

As an aside:  I think that the "baby" (aka, Weirdo Guy) came out of that Doom World, because IMO it's too coincidental that fissures between that universe and this one started opening just as he was being "born," and then he came out in a blinding light. Also, I don't know what was in Kelly's belly this whole time, but I have a hard time believing it was a grown man, so IMO SOMETHING mystical was probably going on there, in any case. Anyway, if Weirdo Guy was coming from Doom World, and Doom World is in "the future" (aka 2030 or whatever), then his advanced age might make more sense. Another possibility might be that he's Doom!Jack, and he traded places purposefully with Baby!Jack.

Anyway -- back to Bobby's info. Another possibility is that maybe Doom!Bobby just didn't know about all of Doom!Mary's business, including what might have been going on with her boyfriends, kids, etc. She might have been hiding things or telling him lies. I can see her trying to keep it private that she has children or anyone else she cares about, because that info could have been used against her very easily in the midst of a world where angels and demons are running around all the time. That said, Doom!Bobby didn't confuse Sam and Dean for anybody, so I figure that it's not that he knows Doom!Sam and Dean under different identities or anything like that.

And another possibility is that Doom!Bobby might have been lying. Honestly, I think that's a pretty good possibility. The 40+ years might have been to throw our!Sam and Dean off the scent. In any case, there must be more to the story of Azazel killing Doom!Mary ten years ago, IMO -- that just seems too coincidental and too similar to the timeline in "our" universe for when/how John died.

Mostly, my fingers are crossed that there's a Doom!Sam and Dean who were raised by Mary, because I just love that idea so much.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, I stayed off the forum - mostly.  (I think I accidentally stumbled onto some spoilers in another thread where I thought I was only reading posts from before the episodes aired, but I did stop as soon as I realized what I had done.) First thoughts on this one (because I haven't watched 23 yet.)

• My rambling thoughts as I'm watching the show: you go Dean!  Yeah, Sam!  Oooh...t-shirts!  T-shirts!  T-SHIRTS PEOPLE.  WE HAVE T-SHIRTS.  And biceps.  Uh...where was I?  Oh yeah.  Go Jody!  eh, Mary.  Why the hell isn't Lady whyisn'tshedeadyet dead yet..oh, look!  Someone slit her throat!  Good, saves me the trouble of doing it.  
• I actually said an "Oh, Dean" out loud during his psychic link sequence.  ::sniff::  That man just broke my heart.  
• I hope they at least took all the gear/tech and intel they could salvage first before they blew up the BMoL headquarters. 
• I really wanted Dean to kick Ketch's ass even injured - and he pretty well did (and still under the influence of drugs!  That man is awesome!)  I still think Dean should have put the bullet in him though, not Mary. 
• Good for Sam taking responsibility and owning up to his own actions/part of the BMoL debacle.   I really liked seeing that. 
• Nice glimpse of Alex.  Glad she got safe and nice shout-out to Donna!  Also glad they phoned Garth and warned him.  
• The end; AWWWWW  We got a Winchester family hug!  Of course, Sam is so huge, you can really only see him, but you know...

[Omegamom]

Hi, guys, long time no see.

That said:

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

They killed Rowena!

They killed Crowley!

They killed Cas!

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

More later.  I have been obsessed with politics since That Man got the Republican nomination.  I have a new kitten, a flame point Siamese who is adorable.  My daughter has her learner's permit.  I've written a small amount, but there was a long dry spell.  (I blame That Man.)  Laters.

(Hi, @Mick Lady!  Hi, @SueB!  Hi, @catrox14!)

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I am trying to remember if there was any point after Dean & Sam arrived at the cottage that Cas & Sam were alone? The thinking being that maybe Sam knew whatever plan Cas had involving this newly discovered rift - and that's why he pulled Dean out so quickly when Cas went after Luci. Sam looked duly upset at Cas's 'death' but not stricken down by it like Dean. He was able to leave them to go in the house after Sproutifer. Maybe he knows more?

Not that I can recall. I'll rewatch tonight

5 minutes ago, Omegamom said:

Hi, guys, long time no see.

That said:

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

They killed Rowena!

They killed Crowley!

They killed Cas!

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

More later.  I have been obsessed with politics since That Man got the Republican nomination.  I have a new kitten, a flame point Siamese who is adorable.  My daughter has her learner's permit.  I've written a small amount, but there was a long dry spell.  (I blame That Man.)  Laters.

(Hi, @Mick Lady!  Hi, @SueB!  Hi, @catrox14!)

/WAVES

HIIIIIIII  @Omegamom!!!!!

[luckyroll3]

22 hours ago, Jediknight said:

Rowena was killed offscreen?  What in the ass, Supernatural?  She didn't get to go out like Crowley, nope, she just gets stomped to death offscreen.  Screw you.

I'm so disappointed that we didn't get one last scene with Rowena.  If she was going down, you just know she would put up one hell of a fight, both literally and figuratively, until they very end.  I couldn't stand her, but that was one aspect that always endeared me to her.

[Macbeth]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

• The end; AWWWWW  We got a Winchester family hug!  Of course, Sam is so huge, you can really only see him, but you know...

I liked it too.  I think some people were upset as he was featured, in the middle.  It's not like Sam can bury his face into Dean's shoulder.  He has what - 4/5 inches on him.

[catrox14]

For me, I think the disconnect is much of the writing of that speech and a little bit in how Jared read those lines. 

FTR, I think Jared is an excellent actor and really above par in specific moments like Samifer or Soulless Sam or when he's just being lowkey nerdy Sam.  I didn't think that speech really reflected Jared's talents.

I have watched that speech a couple of times to understand why I just did not feel it's impact and why it kind of bugged me when so many enjoyed it.

There was something that line reading of "My brother and me....no...I" that IMO made it come across to this viewer that Sam was very much distancing Dean from himself. Now, I think the INTENTION was for it to be Sam not putting his bad choice on Dean, but the line reading it came out so much differently and IMO the music didn't play to Sam feeling regret for his choice but was soaring and "rah rah go Team Hunter".

I felt like they were going for a "We Happy Few" St Crispin's Day rouse the troops thing when IMO what it needed to be was

"Guys, my brother and me. /pause.

I need your help here. I thought the British Men of Letters were the way to go to end the monsters, but they've shown their true colors.  And the fact is, I was wrong to have trusted them. But that doesn't change that we need to take them out simply for the fact that they are going to kill all of us and are going to commit genocide. We could go over all the rights and wrongs of how we got here but this is on me. And  I can't fix it alone. I'm not responsible for them coming after us, but I am responsible for failing to really see and accept who they were. and for that I am sorry. We can all make our own choices and I know we don't all get along all the time or any of the time,  but this is us or them.  I need your help to make sure we all live to see another day".

Why even put any like in there of "I want you to follow me".  That was pretty ridiculous writing IMO.

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

Out of everyone, I think Crowley got the best send off, which is why I think his character is truly gone for good. Mark has a lot going on right now, new baby, new band, concert gigs, etc.  He was given scenes to explain what his state of mind was, and he made a final sacrifice for TFW.  I think he's done.

Rowena didn't get much of anything, except a lingering look at her charred body.  While Ruth was popular, she hadn't been with the show as long as Cas and Crowley, so sadly, her death scene could have played off-screen.  While I feel a bit cheated not getting to see her again, I wouldn't have wanted to watch her die at the hands of Lucifer.  That seemed especially brutal.  I won't be completely shocked if she comes back somehow, but since they've already done that once with her character, I'm not sure they'd go there again.  

As for Cas, I think it's safe to say he's the most popular of the 3 with the majority of fans.  This was a fairly Cas-centric episode, but I'm not sure we got a death scene suitable for his status on the show.  So either next season will open with them burning Cas' body and mourning his death, or he's probably coming back.  To me, the most reasonable "save" for him would be the Nephilim.  Cas protected him, so he might save Cas in return.  This is the result I'm hoping for.  

Crowley's spell was twofold, I thought, and was intended to close the gates of Hell, along with closing the tear.  I'm just not sure whether it worked.  I hope at least the closing of Hell worked, because I would be perfectly happy not to have to deal with demons anymore.  They're boring, as are the angels.  And if they're trying to get back to basics before Heaven and Hell became such a big part of the show, then this really needed to be done.  If they bring Cas back, he could come back with no powers, which would be fine.  I just don't really want Misha back as someone else.

Whether they're all really and truly dead, or only just one or two of them, I'm going to assume they've been sworn to secrecy until next season begins.  Otherwise, it's not much of a cliffhanger.

The two fold was sealing the rift and keeping Lucifer on the rift side. Didn't close the gates of hell far as I could tell. They didn't say it would.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well.  

The second part.

1. Supernatural is really bad for my waistline because I munched on chips, popcorn, and crackers and cheese!  I can't keep this up.
2. I refuse to believe Cas is really most sincerely dead and that Guck won't bring him back, 'cause I think He will (especially since Sam mentioned Him in the ep.)
3. Not so sure about Crowley, since he did flash this time.  And I didn't see any rats close by.  (I did feel sorry for the rat earlier.)
4. Roweena deserved so much better.  Maybe it was her golem?
5. Jack looked creepy as hell.

[Idahoforspn]

2 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

I don't really feel it was an apology or manning up - I'm sorry I allowed myself to follow instead of being the leader?  His decision with the BMOLs was bad judgment, plain and simple, imo.  Looking for an easy fix to something that quite simply doesn't work that way and in a way that even went against their own basic beliefs about not all monsters being evil.  It wasn't because he chose to follow the BMOLs instead of being a leader, it was because he was looking for a quick and easy out, again.  LOL It's like being asked in a job interview "What are your negative qualities?" and spouting "Well, I've been told I work too hard".  It's not really a "negative" quality in that context and IMO neither was Sam's apology "I apologize for following instead of being the leader I am".  

How about something more along the lines of "I apologize for listening to the men of letters instead of my brother Dean who once again knew they were bad news right from the start and who tried to protect me from my bad decisions by not ditching me when he found out I had tricked him into working for them".   There were a lot of ways they could have done that whole rallying of the troops thing by making it more of a group effort, even with the excuse of Dean being injured.  His leg is injured - suddenly his tongue doesn't work either?  How about them both presenting the idea to the group but with Sam just being the one to go because you know Dean's injured?  

How does saying "Me and my brother...no I...I called you here because people our people are being slaughtered...the British Men of Letters came (stuff about their flashy tech etc and how most of those hunters had the good sense to turn them down)...but I didn't", qualify as owning up to much of anything, by mentioning it in passing on the way to telling them he wants them to "follow me"?  He's presenting himself as the lone leader (who oh by the way made a mistake in judgment ) and then proceeds to talk about what the men of letters of did with no mention of his own part whatever that might be while Dean literally sits there saying and doing nothing like some lapdog sidekick.

Nor do I think Mary's deal really affected Sam more in the long run so the idea that Dean HAD to talk about how the deal affected specifically Sam(with the implication that Dean's suffering wouldn't have gotten to her, but Sam's would so that is what she needed to hear?) - Sam wasn't anymore affected by the deal than the rest of them until he was 22 years old - then yes his girlfriend got killed and he briefly got some psychic powers from them but other than that Dean's life was affected every bit as much by what happened as Sam's was and in some ways he got the brunt of John's worst, which was also a result of what happened to her.  Sam wasn't tortured in Hell because of Mary's decisions, he didn't lose his soul because of Mary's decision - Dean and Sam were BOTH vessels for Michael and Lucifer respectively and Mary's deal affected them both equally in that way because it was based on their family lineage(and Mary wouldn't have married John if she hadn't made the deal because John would have been dead).  

In some ways one could say Dean's sojourn to Hell was perhaps even more directly affected by Mary's decision given a big part of it was based on the massive damage he'd suffered emotionally due to his treatment and his life after her death.

I don't think Dean talking about his feelings regarding Sam is really Dean talking about himself, he's focusing on Sam and how he feels what she did did to Sam and then about how he felt he'd failed in his job, admittedly unfair, of protecting him.  Dean talking about Sam is not Dean talking about how he feels about what happened to himself.

Yes!!

[RulerofallIsurvey]

52 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I liked it too.  I think some people were upset as he was featured, in the middle.  It's not like Sam can bury his face into Dean's shoulder.  He has what - 4/5 inches on him.

Well, yeah.  And as @SueB has noted: he has an impressive wingspan!

[Idahoforspn]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

Two different viewpoints; and mine is somewhere in the middle.

Yes, IA that Sam was taking responsibility for his bad decisions, and I applaud that.  He started out "my brother and I" and then changed to "I..." for the responsibility part, and I think that was just what was needed.  He didn't try to share or pass the blame, and that was important.  He probably should have started with that, saying how he was taken in by all their shiny gadgets, while other hunters weren't.  He didn't have to go into details or say anything like "I didn't listen to my big brother, and I was wrong."  That wouldn't serve any purpose at all (except maybe to appease some angry Dean fans.)  But from there, Sam went into the explanation of the terrible things that the BMOL had done and why they need to stop them.   t was a powerful speech and, IMO, should have *included* Dean, not just Sam.  He seemed to be making it personal.   When Sam asked for help to fight the BMOL, he should have been asking them to help "us", not "me," which would have let the others know that Dean was still with him, no matter what.  

This. That's what bothered me. He kept with the I, I, and I.  Follow ME! Guess he forgot he had a brother during his hero speech.

[Macbeth]

There is no way Cas is dead.  I just saw a picture of Alexander Calvert who is playing Luci's spawn:

Holy crap -  no wonder Catrox14 thought it was Misha.  I don't think it's a coincindence that Jack looks like Misha's love child.  Seriously there should be blood tests done.  Misha and Alexander will definitely be playing father and son.

Regarding AU Castiel v. real Castiel - I am not worried there is an essential Casness at the core that cannot be destroyed.  Misha always makes sure of that.  And Cas has changed throughout the years to meet the various storylines.  Cas thinking he is a god (S6 & S7) - S11 Lucifer takeover.  S12 Cas was very sad - so any change would be appreciated by me. 

Regarding the use of Alternative Universes in general and Supernatural.  I hated Heroes when there appeared to be no rules.  I was just getting used to the rules then it all fell apart.  And don't even get me started on Lost.

However, Supernatural is going into its 13th season.  There have been so many deaths and resurrections - exploring AUs would actually be refreshing and much needed change for this show in my opinion.

Also - Hi Bobby!!  Always glad to see you again.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Macbeth

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Holy crap -  no wonder Catrox14 thought it was Misha. 

 

OKAY thank you for that picture. LOL because I thought in the other one he kind of resembled him but that one. HOLY COW. I have TWO vindications today about Cas. LOL. 

I mean I know I was looking through teary eyes when they showed Jack the first time, but this makes me feel a lot better that i wasn't totally crazy that I thought it was Misha or a CGI Misha anyway. LOL

THANK YOU!!!

[Lady Calypso]

So, hi. I've been lurking pretty much all season, but only decided to post now. I've been watching the show on and off since the beginning of season 7. Obviously, I have my own thoughts about the finale, so I figure maybe a new pair of eyes can offer a different perspective?

So, what I took from Doom World is that it really is a What If Sam and Dean Were Never Born world. As in, if neither of the boys existed, they would have never saved all those people and the world wouldn't have been essentially destroyed and taken over by the angels and the demons. But the only way this works for me if both had never been born. Because thinking about Dean without Sam and without John is depressing to think about, and it implies that Dean's path never becomes a hunter, even with Mary (I assume she stuck to hunting, as per Doom Bobby's story about her). My thought is that they really just wanted to play with the idea that without Dean and Sam, the world would have gone to shit. It takes both boys not being born to start the apocalypse, essentially.

As for the Cas situation, he was definitely one of my favourites, but I'm not convinced that he's staying dead. Crowley, I can see staying dead. He outlived his purpose for a few seasons now, even though I thoroughly enjoyed him, and I think they gave him the perfect sendoff. I think I'd rather he stayed dead. He sacrificed himself and he did some good, all to stop Lucifer. I mean, technically it worked, since Lucifer is in Doom World (which Dean/Sam will ruin by reopening the rift to save Mary), but I would find it more meaningful if Crowley stayed dead after his sacrifice. After all, if he's brought back, then what will his new purpose be? 

Rowena's a trickier subject. It sucks that she was killed off screen and I imagine she'll at least make a few cameos, but I also think her staying dead isn't the worst idea. I do think they should have given her a proper send off. Even if it was just one opening scene with her and Lucifer, and showing her fighting back before being killed. Her being offscreen not only sucks for the actress, but it also makes me wary that she's actually staying dead, even with the lock of red hair in Lucifer's hand. 

Now, back to Cas, there's still story left within him that I think needs to be told. Now, I haven't seen this mentioned, but I've been thinking of this future that he saw through Jack. How do we know that Cas was telling the truth to Kelly about it? We, as an audience, didn't see it, so we can only take Cas at his word. Now, why he would lie about it, I have no idea. I'm still trying to figure out why he'd have a sudden change of heart. My thought is that he might have forseen his death but he might have seen what happens afterward with Jack. I can't think of any explanations as to Cas lying and what he could have seen, but there is so much that hasn't been shown to us, only told. As an avid TV watcher, I know that there's more truth to what we see than what we're told. Not always, of course, but most of the time. We also have missing time between the scene of Cas stabbing Lucifer, and him coming through the rift. I think we'll find out if we missed anything in that time, as we don't really know how much time really passed. It could have been mere seconds, or it could have been enough time for something to have happened.

Or, Jack is going to resurrect Cas because of the bond they shared and how he protected Jack and Kelly. It's hard to say for sure exactly what they'll do, but it's why I'm not convinced Cas is remaining dead. Even with the scared and confused look in his eyes as he passed through the rift, if he knew he was being chased by Lucifer, he should have moved away.  The fact that he didn't seems to say that we're missing whatever went on with Lucifer/Cas in Doom World, or we're missing something that Cas was aware of. 

There's also missing time between Cas entering the rift for the first time and making his way back to Kelly. There seemed to be a considerable amount of time that passed, he seemed to be guarded and hiding something, and I don't think it was just about him finding about about Doom World and Doom Bobby (maybe I'm overthinking this). I also note that Cas tried to stop the boys from finding the rift in the first place, almost as if he was trying to protect them. Not from meeting Doom Bobby, but from something else entirely. I wonder if we'll actually get an answer for that next season. 

The worst thing about Mary/Lucifer being trapped together in Doom World is that the boys will reopen the rift to save her, which will surely set Lucifer free again. Also, that means we'll likely get Mary/Lucifer plots next season until her boys save her, probably around midseason. 

I guess, either way, we'll get more answers in the season premiere. I really accept that I could be off-base. I'm not a dedicated enough fan to know all the facts and details here.

[Macbeth]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

OKAY thank you for that picture. LOL because I thought in the other one he kind of resembled him but that one. HOLY COW. I have TWO vindications today about Cas. LOL.

You are very welcome Catrox14.

My jaw hit my chest when I found that photo.  And I was very relieved.  No way is Cas dead.

Welcome to the show Misha, Jr.

Edited May 20, 2017 by Macbeth

[catrox14]

7 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

Welcome to the show Misha, Jr.

I'm trying to figure out why it would be Cas' son though. It's Lucifer's kid by President Jeff. Are you thinking that somehow the connection between the kid and Cas changed the Spawn? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?

[Macbeth]

17 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm trying to figure out why it would be Cas' son though. It's Lucifer's kid by President Jeff. Are you thinking that somehow the connection between the kid and Cas changed the Spawn? Or am I getting the wrong end of the stick here?

No I think you are right.  I agree with you.  I think it happened when Castiel held Kelly's hand in solidarity and lit up like a Christmas tree.

Or Chuck intervened and said hell no to Lucifer part 2. 

Just think of the epic meltdown Lucifer will have when he sees that his son looks like the Winchesters' "purse dog."

Edited May 20, 2017 by Macbeth

[ParadoxLost]

24 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

So, what I took from Doom World is that it really is a What If Sam and Dean Were Never Born world. As in, if neither of the boys existed, they would have never saved all those people and the world wouldn't have been essentially destroyed and taken over by the angels and the demons. But the only way this works for me if both had never been born. Because thinking about Dean without Sam and without John is depressing to think about, and it implies that Dean's path never becomes a hunter, even with Mary (I assume she stuck to hunting, as per Doom Bobby's story about her). My thought is that they really just wanted to play with the idea that without Dean and Sam, the world would have gone to shit. It takes both boys not being born to start the apocalypse, essentially.

I have been assuming based on the prior episode that this is the world where Mary didn't deal with yellow eyes and as a result John died and neither Dean or Sam was born.

[SueB]

Upon further study of Cas's wing-print on the ground, I think these do not look like Cas' normal wings.  This could be artistic license or a clue that Cas' wings are different -- meaning something is different about Cas OR it's not OUR Cas.

So... my diatribe earlier about "normal" and "odd" ... I'm RETHINKING.... This may in fact be an AU!Cas.

Old versus new wings (shape comparison):

Edited May 20, 2017 by SueB

[RulerofallIsurvey]

23 hours ago, Jediknight said:

They really did a horrible job of a redemption storyline for her.

I didn't think they were trying to redeem Lady I'mgladshe'sdeadnow at all.  And I'm kind of glad they didn't go that route.  That just gets old.

22 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

For me true character growth would be him acknowledging that he did the best he could, but he still sees himself as a failure,  

Sounded to me that's exactly what Dean did in his speech to Mary.

14 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If they're code is so strong why wouldn't the rest of them come across to America to continue to continue to try and eliminate other hunters?

Well - there's more of us than them.  So there's that.  And we'd just kick them out again.  Same reason why England (the recognized world superpower at the time) didn't really continue to try to take back the colonies after the American Revolution either (unless you count the War of 1812, which I do, but apparently the British don't.  Oh yeah - we won that one too.)

12 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And I would have happily swapped. 

Never would have worked.  Sam would not have been able to get through to Mary like Dean was able to.  Then Mary would have been lost to both of them forever - just so Dean could have the big Hero moment you want for him, not even what he would want for himself.   In terms of "the Family Business" motto, Dean is the bigger Hero in this episode.  He's the only one who SAVED someone.  

11 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

Also - how does Baby get in and out of the basement garage? Wouldn't that be an easier route out?  Their dilemma seemed silly to me.

They did say all the exits were warded/locked or something and reinforced steel - and didn't one of the boys mention the garage?  I presume the garage door is also reinforced steel and warded so also under the spell/lock down.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

IMO, it would have been much more powerful to have Dean standing (or sitting) behind him to show his support while he talked about the the reasons they needed to fight and urging others to join THEM in the battle;

Well, except for the fact that standing on his bad leg all that time would have been pretty painful, Dean was right next to Sam, so I don't see the difference between that and the (or sitting) scenario.  I thought it was pretty obvious that Sam had Dean's support.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I have been assuming based on the prior episode that this is the world where Mary didn't deal with yellow eyes and as a result John died and neither Dean or Sam was born.

That was my assumption. John died in her arms like we saw in canon but she didn't make a deal so he stayed dead and they never married.

[rue721]

17 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

They did say all the exits were warded/locked or something and reinforced steel - and didn't one of the boys mention the garage?  I presume the garage door is also reinforced steel and warded so also under the spell/lock down.

So wait -- how'd they get the Impala out?!

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam would not have been able to get through to Mary like Dean was able to.

I agree with this. Out of the two of them I feel that Sam has had a gentler approach when dealing with Mary even when he's been upset with her and that may have not been what was needed to get through to her. Dean was a witness to John and Sam's pain in the aftermath of her deal and was equally affected from trying to take care of his family the best that he could at the expense of himself. He has a hefty amount of bitterness inside of him which Mary couldn't ignore if she truly cared. Not to say that Sam isn't bitter as well but I can't see him laying into Mary the way that Dean did.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, rue721 said:

So wait -- how'd they get the Impala out?!

Dean used the Grenade Launcher to get out and reset everything. They got out like they normally did once he reset everything.

[rue721]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Dean used the Grenade Launcher to get out and reset everything. They got out like they normally did once he reset everything.

Ah OK, thanks -- got it!

Edited May 20, 2017 by rue721

[Morrigan2575]

19 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

That was my assumption. John died in her arms like we saw in canon but she didn't make a deal so he stayed dead and they never married.

Alt.Bobby said John Winchester died 40 years ago. I'm guessing that lines up with John's first death?

I don't know what their plan is for next season. I don't know if Cas was Alt.Cas or Real Cas but there was definitely something off about that whole scene. It was so odd, from Castiel showing up in Doom World to his final death.

Maybe Alt.Cas died, maybe Real.Cas died, in either case I don't think it will be permanent. 

If it was me, I'd have Lil Luci bring Cas back to life and introduce Alt.Crowley which allows them to reset the character

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Alt.Bobby said John Winchester died 40 years ago. I'm guessing that lines up with John's first death?

 Azazel first killed John in 1973 which would be 44 years ago so yeah it lines up.

[flyinghigh]

21 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

42 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam would not have been able to get through to Mary like Dean was able to.

I agree with this. Out of the two of them I feel that Sam has had a gentler approach when dealing with Mary even when he's been upset with her and that may have not been what was needed to get through to her. Dean was a witness to John and Sam's pain in the aftermath of her deal and was equally affected from trying to take care of his family the best that he could at the expense of himself. He has a hefty amount of bitterness inside of him which Mary couldn't ignore if she truly cared. Not to say that Sam isn't bitter as well but I can't see him laying into Mary the way that Dean did.

Agree!!

[SueB]

3 hours ago, Omegamom said:

Hi, guys, long time no see.

That said:

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

They killed Rowena!

They killed Crowley!

They killed Cas!

Aaaaaagggghhhhh!

More later.  I have been obsessed with politics since That Man got the Republican nomination.  I have a new kitten, a flame point Siamese who is adorable.  My daughter has her learner's permit.  I've written a small amount, but there was a long dry spell.  (I blame That Man.)  Laters.

(Hi, @Mick Lady!  Hi, @SueB!  Hi, @catrox14!)

*waves with both hands*

Hi! Hi! Hi!  So good to hear from you.  Looking forward to your thoughts.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Well, except for the fact that standing on his bad leg all that time would have been pretty painful, Dean was right next to Sam, so I don't see the difference between that and the (or sitting) scenario.  I thought it was pretty obvious that Sam had Dean's support.

That was the reason why I said he could be sitting instead of standing :)  

But even if everyone honestly believed that Sam had Dean's support, there was no way (for the hunters, anyway) of knowing *why.*  Was he supporting the plan itself or just his brother?

I think all the hunters know Dean is obsessively loyal to his brother and would always support (and defend) him to others, even if they disagreed in private,  and even when he knew it was wrong (cf:  agreeing to work with the BMOL in the first place).  And the fact that Dean didn't say *anything* (for or against) gave them no way of judging if he actually agreed with what Sam was proposing or was just backing him up out of loyalty, especially since Sam's speech sounded like a personal appeal for them to follow him (so he could make up for his mistakes) rather than a rallying cry for them to unite and fight for Truth, Justice and the American Way (oops, sorry...)   But if they *both* stood together (figuratively, at least) while Sam made his plea for help doing the right thing (and if Sam had said "help *us* fight" rather than "help *me*"), then it would have been more obvious that Dean's support was for the plan as well as for Sam.  And *then* Dean could give his trust that Sam would be able to do it himself.  

Two separate parts:  support for the plan, AND faith in his brother to accomplish it.  That's what I think the hunters needed to hear, and that's what we didn't see.   And, as always, JMO and YMMV.  

Edited May 20, 2017 by ahrtee