The Keepers - General Discussion

[iMonrey]

Quote

I have a hard time believing the nephew's memory, since that seems completely contradictory to the other evidence.

Well, Sharon having a memory of her parents fighting and her father saying he'd killed someone is one thing. That's the kind of childhood memory I would find somewhat questionable. But Brian's memory of actually being there and going with them to dump the body while his uncle distracted him shooting guns? That a much more detailed and distinct memory than just hearing a conversation when he was a kid. He was there. I don't know why he'd have such an elaborate false memory. Given all of Billy's behavior afterwards I'd say the whole thing adds up.

[film noire]

@OtterMommy, both my husband and I thought Cathy was delicately letting him know a pregnancy was no longer in play.

19 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Baltimore is a good sized city and I think that 2 women disappearing within days of each other, while worth a look, is not damning evidence.

In another post, I mentioned there were three Baltimore girls gone missing in a two year period  (Malecki, Pamela Lynn Conyers and Gay Montayne) as well as Sister Cathy, and the cops were supposedly looking into connections (grist enough for a second season):

"Four days after Cesnik’s disappearance, a 20-year-old woman named Joyce Helen Malecki went missing. According to the Baltimore Sun, Malecki had left for a date with a friend on the evening of November 11, and on the 12th, her abandoned car was found at an empty gas station in Odenton. On November 13, Malecki’s body was found in a nearby river by two deer hunters. The autopsy revealed she was stabbed and choked and her hands were bound behind her with a chord. At the time, police were unable to link the two cases.

On October 16, 1970, 16-year-old Pamela Lynn Conyers disappeared after driving to the Hurundale Mall in Glen Burie in her family’s Dodge Monaco. Four days later, her body was found in a wooded area of Maryland.

In September 1971, high school junior Grace Elizabeth “Gay” Montayne was found beaten to death over 30 miles from her home.

On May 4, 2017, Baltimore County police reportedly said they were “exploring the possible connections between Cesnik’s death” and those of Malecki, Conyers, and Montayne. All four young women went missing in roughly the same time period."

http://heavy.com/entertainment/2017/05/sister-catherine-cesnik-the-keepers-netflix-victim-murder-case-sexual-allegations-maskell/

From a contemporaneous news story (if you click on the link, there are descriptions of the state of her body, so just a heads-up):

"Officials at Franklin Senior High reportedly were told by two classmates of ihe murder victim that they saw her get into a dark blue or green car on the school parking lot Monday night...Supporting the report of the stranger approaching the high school girls, although apparently unknown to her parents, a younger sister of the Montanye girl said the slaying victim received a call Monday afternoon from a woman who asked her to model in a fashion show, according to police."

https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/82064719/

A female accomplice? (god, that modeling job lure is so poignant and horrific).

Edited May 30, 2017 by film noire

[Nire]

On 5/26/2017 at 9:47 PM, sas616 said:

I didn't think it dragged at all.  Perhaps because I live in Baltimore and these places are very familiar to me.  Really creeps me out actually knowing this happened in my home time.   And having been in the Catholic school systems around that time, it is very upsetting.

I also live in the area and just recognizing places is keeping me intrigued during slower parts.  We actually were in a bidding war for a house on North Bend, which we lost.  I know many people who attended Seton Keogh  and have been inside the school.  Thankfully everyone I know attended in the late 90s or later.  

[kieyra]

Huh. @film noire's post made me realize I had no idea that Ted Bundy spent any time on the east coast, but apparently he did, and they have him as a possible suspect for some killings 1969-1971. 

(Most likely unrelated, but it's hard not to think Bundy when it's the 70s and women with a certain look.)

[iMonrey]

Well, I wouldn't want to live in a world where anybody could just walk into a police station (for example) and say "so-and-so raped me 20 years ago" and the police automatically jumped up, ran out and arrested that person. An accusation alone should not be sufficient evidence for anything. 

Now, having watched the entire series, I know this whole corroboration thing comes full circle. My comments are limited to the ideal of "evidence." She didn't really have any evidence at that point. 

[Nire]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Well, Sharon having a memory of her parents fighting and her father saying he'd killed someone is one thing. That's the kind of childhood memory I would find somewhat questionable. But Brian's memory of actually being there and going with them to dump the body while his uncle distracted him shooting guns? That a much more detailed and distinct memory than just hearing a conversation when he was a kid. He was there. I don't know why he'd have such an elaborate false memory. Given all of Billy's behavior afterwards I'd say the whole thing adds up.

But his nephew remembers her being killed inside her apartment, which isn't where she's believed to have disappeared from.  Then she's wrapped in a rug, which contradicts the neighbor who saw her trying to escape from her own car.  Plus there didn't seem to be any connection between Maskall and Billy.  My theory is Billy saw something and was threatened causing his unusual behavior.  I'm not sure about his nephew.

[lucindabelle]

This episode made me especially angry. I'm a journalist and the FOIA runaround and the evidence "lost" infuriated me.

[rwgrab]

What a great documentary series.  I thought the filmmakers put everything together nicely, and the final episode was a great conclusion to wrap up the things we do know.  Ultimately, I was pretty convinced that the Catholic church had all the corroboration it needed on Maskell by the time Jane Doe came along in the 90s, and that their decision not to take definitive action at that point (or any point, really) to rectify the situation speaks volumes.  Not that we needed more proof that the church cared less about these victims than their image, but it's still worth pointing out every single time it happens; for the sake of the victims, and as a reminder that any organization can lose its way when it stops taking into account the concerns of its members.

I also walked away from the series thinking we had two different crimes that weren't necessarily related, though.  We have the sexual abuse occurring in various parishes in Baltimore at the time.  Then we had the murder of Sister Cathy.  To my recollection, the only thing we heard that connected the two were Jean's memories of seeing Cathy's body.  That's not enough evidence for me to say that I think Maskell was even involved in her death.  By that point,  Cathy had moved on to another school and hadn't, it seems, been able to hinder Maskell's activities in any way.  The idea that she was an imminent threat to him to be silenced wasn't proven to me.  For that case, I had the same reservations that others have mentioned about Koob.  His story at the police station was kind of bizarre, and then he had that typed note from Cathy about her feelings for him.  But...Cathy's sister talked about all the handwritten letters she received from Cathy, so it's strange to me that Koob would have received a typewritten one with such personal revelations.  Suspicious, sure, but not enough to hang a case on.

I wound up dismissing the Billy and Edgar digressions.  Ed seems like a bad guy, but we're not going to be able to unlock whatever is going on in his head.  Billy seemed to be pretty mixed up and ran with an eccentric crowd, but his attacking Cathy seems unlikely to me.   

Overall I appreciated that they told a cohesive story incorporating all that we know.  I think they honored the victims, and I sincerely applaud Abbie and Gemma for continuing to pursue a cause they feel very strongly about.  Good luck to them, and keep up the good work!

[iMonrey]

Quote

But his nephew remembers her being killed inside her apartment, which isn't where she's believed to have disappeared from. 

No, he said he never saw the actual murder. He was first in Sister Cathy's apartment then sent to his Uncle Billy's apartment. When he went looking for his Uncle Billy later, he was again sent back to Uncle Billy's apartment. I don't know that any of the Schmidts (or Skippy) were involved in the actual murder but I do believe they were responsible for dumping the body, which happened to be located behind their family business. It's possible Sister Cathy was killed elsewhere then brought back to her apartment with the original intention of leaving her there, only for it to be later decided to move her again for some reason. 

Edited May 30, 2017 by iMonrey

[hypnotoad]

Quote

Every time I think I've gotten to the end of perversity, pedophilia and cover-ups in the church,  I'm proven wrong and there's another story

I am not at all religious, but I was raised Catholic and this episode ... killed me. I would love ... love to hear a story in which the church actually defends the victims rather than covers up for the priest. I suspect I will never hear that story.

[ladle]

On 5/19/2017 at 9:02 PM, saoirse said:

Also, shout out to Beverly - she totally should be played by Kathy Bates in any future dramatizations!

Jean should be played by Glenn Close! 

[Eliz]

5 hours ago, rwgrab said:

I also walked away from the series thinking we had two different crimes that weren't necessarily related, though.  We have the sexual abuse occurring in various parishes in Baltimore at the time.  Then we had the murder of Sister Cathy.  To my recollection, the only thing we heard that connected the two were Jean's memories of seeing Cathy's body.  That's not enough evidence for me to say that I think Maskell was even involved in her death.  By that point,  Cathy had moved on to another school and hadn't, it seems, been able to hinder Maskell's activities in any way.  The idea that she was an imminent threat to him to be silenced wasn't proven to me.  

This is ultimately where I came out too. There was zero evidence that Sister Cathy had done anything to confront Maskell. In fact, she left the school entirely, which seems completely the opposite of what you would do if you wanted to protect the girls there. I keep going back to the quote from one of the other women who was in nun-training (I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't know the correct terminology) with Cathy and Russell, and she said they were both "very compliant nuns." I think it's entirely possible that even if Sister Cathy had some idea of what was happening, and even if she said comforting and sympathetic things to some of Maskell's victims, she didn't actually do anything about it. The same level of unquestioning obedience to priests that primed the girls to be victims would also have been operating in a nun who bought into that system enough to devote her life to it.

I think the series does incredible work in documenting the sex abuse and the church's cover-up. I think it is actually not very good at all as an investigation of the murder. Throughout, it doesn't construct any coherent narrative about who killed Sister Cathy. Its position certainly seems to be that she was killed by Maskell or someone acting with him, but it spends an entire episode digressing on two unrelated randoms, and up to the very end, it comes down pretty heavy on Koob as a possible suspect, which wouldn't fit at all with the Maskell theory. The more weight it gives any of those theories, it actually ends up undercutting the connection to Maskell.

It all comes down to two women, really. Sister Russell, who might have been able to shed some light on what, if anything, Cathy had done about Maskell, but did not. (And honestly, shame on her for going to her grave without telling someone what she knew.) And Jean, if she recovers further memories that link Maskell to Sister Cathy.

[bilgistic]

Robert De Niro will be playing Koob.

[rabidchipmnk]

5 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I am not at all religious, but I was raised Catholic and this episode ... killed me. I would love ... love to hear a story in which the church actually defends the victims rather than covers up for the priest. I suspect I will never hear that story.

It really is disgustingly mind-boggling how universal this same damn story is over and over and over.  I was just browsing elsewhere on the interwebs last night and oh look, another one, but this was in Australia and in the 90s.

Jean was one of the lucky ones, truly...

[ChicksDigScars]

Jesus Christ, the one line that I keep coming back to, was that bastard Maskell WATCHING while his friends took turns on these girls, and (I hope I have the right episode), when his friend "Brother Bob," whose identity is still a mystery, climaxed without pulling out, that Maskell told him, "She's a pup from a large litter. We can't have that." So, she was a dog to him. A dog from a large family of fertile Catholics, and we have to be careful not to get her pregnant. Fuck you, Father. Seriously, you fucking pig. 

And THAT'S IT. That's who Jean reminds me of. Glenn Close.

Edited May 31, 2017 by ChicksDigScars

[film noire]

17 hours ago, hypnotoad said:

I am not at all religious, but I was raised Catholic and this episode ... killed me. I would love ... love to hear a story in which the church actually defends the victims rather than covers up for the priest. I suspect I will never hear that story.

The closest is likely former Benedictine monk Patrick Wall; he was "the fixer" (a priest the Church brings in to calm parishes riven by sexual abuse) so he knew the sickness inside out. He's now devoted himself to helping victims fight the Church. Here's a section from an interview he did with NPR:

Answering a question about patterns as to where abusing priests are relocated: 

"Mr. WALL: Oh, there's a clear pattern. You always want to send them to a parish where people are not going to talk. The best ones are parishes of color, parishes of strong Catholic ethnicity, parishes that have a reason to really want the priest. I remember stories of, for instance, Father Jules Convert. He's a French Jesuit who ended up serving in Alaska. Now, he didn't speak Yup'ik, but that's where he ended up and that's where he offended....Because they were so happy just to have a priest. These were places out of the way. I remember another story of Father Kelly(ph). He was a piano professor at St. John's University in Collegeville. And they sent him, after he offended, up to the Ojibwe Indians in Red Lake, Minnesota. They were so happy to even have a priest, they wouldn't dare accuse him of anything, let alone call the police on him."

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=126192996

Jesus. Even the mob doesn't protect child rapists.

Edited May 31, 2017 by film noire

[Nire]

On 5/30/2017 at 5:55 PM, iMonrey said:

No, he said he never saw the actual murder. He was first in Sister Cathy's apartment then sent to his Uncle Billy's apartment. When he went looking for his Uncle Billy later, he was again sent back to Uncle Billy's apartment. I don't know that any of the Schmidts (or Skippy) were involved in the actual murder but I do believe they were responsible for dumping the body, which happened to be located behind their family business. It's possible Sister Cathy was killed elsewhere then brought back to her apartment with the original intention of leaving her there, only for it to be later decided to move her again for some reason. 

So was she killed in the parkinglot then brought up to her apartment?  Or were they meeting in her apartment to discuss plans?  Unless Sister Russel was very involved this doesn't make sense to me.  Why would her apartment be the place to discuss plans not Billy's apartment or a dark alley.  Also his mother remembers his father coming home bloody but doesn't mention her son being with him or his uncle.  I know that if my husband came home bloody claiming he'd been in a bar fight I'd be livid.  But coming home bloody claiming a bar fight with our young son would be another whole can of worms.

[Duke2801]

On ‎5‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 11:10 PM, bilgistic said:

The only Skippy I know is peanut butter.

Heh the only one who came to mind for me was the Keaton's annoying neighbor on Family Ties!

[iMonrey]

I'm sure we'll never know the details. "Father Bob" says he killed Sister Cathy by accident - it's possible they did bring her back to her apartment initially. I just think Brian Schmidt's memory is detailed and significant enough to be taken seriously (as opposed to his sister who merely reported hearing a fight - that's not the same thing as experiencing the event and being at the site of the event). Plus the whole incident with the guy in the nun's habit following Ronnie's wife in his car - just too creepy for words. 

And I hate to say it but I'm not sure how much we can rely on Jean's recovered memories. While I'm in no way trying to diminish the significance of her abuse, I still find some recovered memories of dubious reliability. Some may have been merely dreams if we're being honest here.  

[Captanne]

Imonrey, I agree about recovered memories.  I'm 56 and my "eyewitness" memories are convoluted at best with time. However (full disclosure, I used to be a litigator -- got my law degree in 1996 and practiced until I was activated in the National Guard on 9/11) when we are talking about such vivid memories of a crime from factual circumstances like Maskell's it is our bounden duty to find what is accurate and what isn't. These memories are of grievous criminal allegations about a man whose depravity is corroborated and who was moved around by the church as well as put in an asylum.  Plenty to go on there. (You can infer what I think of Mrs. May.)

[iMonrey]

I think, specifically, Jean's memories of Fr. Maskell taking her to see Sister Cathy's body, and of this mysterious "Father Bob" are somewhat suspect. Both seem like something she might have just dreamed. I know it was more or less "corroborated" that there were maggots on the nun's face, as Jean remembers, but that in itself isn't necessarily proof that she was there. I'm not saying she wasn't there - I honestly don't know, obviously. I'm just saying some "recovered" memories may not be reliable.

[rabidchipmnk]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:11 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

Jesus Christ, the one line that I keep coming back to, was that bastard Maskell WATCHING while his friends took turns on these girls, and (I hope I have the right episode), when his friend "Brother Bob," whose identity is still a mystery, climaxed without pulling out, that Maskell told him, "She's a pup from a large litter. We can't have that." So, she was a dog to him. A dog from a large family of fertile Catholics, and we have to be careful not to get her pregnant. Fuck you, Father. Seriously, you fucking pig. 

Honestly I was surprised we didn't hear about any of them getting pregnant.  Statistically I'd think that would have to have happened... or was he spiking the cokes with birth control too?  Or we just have a 40-years-late sampling bias.

On 5/31/2017 at 11:11 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

And THAT'S IT. That's who Jean reminds me of. Glenn Close.

...nah, that's not it.  She does remind me of someone, though.  Anyway she's totally badass.

[rabidchipmnk]

10 hours ago, Captanne said:

Imonrey, I agree about recovered memories.  I'm 56 and my "eyewitness" memories are convoluted at best with time. However (full disclosure, I used to be a litigator -- got my law degree in 1996 and practiced until I was activated in the National Guard on 9/11) when we are talking about such vivid memories of a crime from factual circumstances like Maskell's it is our bounden duty to find what is accurate and what isn't. These memories are of grievous criminal allegations about a man whose depravity is corroborated and who was moved around by the church as well as put in an asylum.  Plenty to go on there. (You can infer what I think of Mrs. May.)

I liked how they made it an explicit point how she recovered the memories on her own (which is more reliable), and did not talk to any of the other survivors until I guess we saw them meet in the second to last episode.  And Teresa and the other victims never had repressed their memories, but they were consistent between each other.  Of course eyewitness testimony is like, the most unreliable type of evidence, but these are points in her favor.  I'd agree that if anything is suspect, it would be the "seeing the body" part; seems almost like symbolism for the other role Sister Cathy had in the story (and maggots are what you'd think of on a dead person).

Murder or no, those guys should all have rotted just ("just") for the abuse.

[TipseyGirl]

8 hours ago, rabidchipmnk said:

Honestly I was surprised we didn't hear about any of them getting pregnant.  Statistically I'd think that would have to have happened... or was he spiking the cokes with birth control too?  Or we just have a 40-years-late sampling bias.

...nah, that's not it.  She does remind me of someone, though.  Anyway she's totally badass.

She reminds me of Melissa McBride (Carol of "The Walking Dead). Both in looks and badassness.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_McBride

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Will The Keepers Return To The Halls Of Archbishop Keough For A Second Season?

Or will these seven episodes haunt us enough?

[jeansheridan]

Other than Jean's brothers and the other victim's brothers, most of the men are coming off creepy.  

Koop's wife was interesting in how she answered.  Clearly she realizes her husband was a suspect in Cathy's murder.  She has thought about this question a lot I think.  But I sensed doubt in her.  But Koop as murderer makes no sense given Jean's story.

I find it interesting that two nieces really believe their uncles were killers too.  Uncles are taking a beating in this series.

And that preening pathologist and his list of celebrity cases.  Shudder.

Don't care for Nugent either.

Starting to warm up to the cop currently looking into the case.  He seems to be engaged in their discussion.  But cautious. And I think the missing evidence pissed him off. 

[jeansheridan]

I don't like true crime stories and I honestly will avoid them in the future unless the damm case is solved.  

I wish we had met Charles sooner.  And I wish more kids had mothers like his.  I feel like she might have brought a shotgun with her to that meeting.

PT Wilson needs to run for National office. 

Spotlight proves that if you can't find a leaker, you can't get those docs.  I can't believe the original attorney for the victims turned over all her notes. Why????

I kept watching out of respect for Jean and the others.

[Pogojoco]

To everyone saying that there was no close connection anymore with Sister Cathy and Maskell because Sister Cathy had moved on to a different school- Maskell and Magnus barged in on the nuns' apartment the night before she disappeared. A girl from the school and her boyfriend were there. Maskell threatened the kids the next day in his office. The girl stayed anonymous because she was afraid for her family.

Maskell had the police in his pocket. They weren't going to investigate him. Maskell might not have physically killed Sister Cathy, but the guy was involved. 

[Soobs]

I thought I was a grizzled crime story watcher but this story is beyond disturbing!

I really am trying hard not to google the priests but please tell me these motherfuckers are currently burning in hell and not leading a parish in some poor, remote place.

So grateful that my very Catholic parents were too cheap to send us to Catholic school.

[skittl3862]

As I watched The Burial, I didn't know how there could be 3 more episodes, because I thought the trial would be the obvious conclusion. So much for the justice system.

Barbara's gay brother-in-law Billy Schmidt seems really unlikely. Gay men in drag as nuns seems like just a weird 60s gay thing, not a threat because she "knew too much". Billy was probably psychologically screwed up by virtue of being a gay man in the 1960s. That doesn't make him a murderer.

But I got chills when they slowly panned to the nun mannequin in the attic. That's just fucking creepy.

[Soobs]

On 5/31/2017 at 11:11 AM, ChicksDigScars said:

Jesus Christ, the one line that I keep coming back to, was that bastard Maskell WATCHING while his friends took turns on these girls, and (I hope I have the right episode), when his friend "Brother Bob," whose identity is still a mystery, climaxed without pulling out, that Maskell told him, "She's a pup from a large litter. We can't have that." So, she was a dog to him. A dog from a large family of fertile Catholics, and we have to be careful not to get her pregnant. Fuck you, Father. Seriously, you fucking pig. 

And THAT'S IT. That's who Jean reminds me of. Glenn Close.

The dehumanization of women and girls was not subtle at all. Rape them, kill them, no one will care. And no one did for a long time. 

[Soobs]

The D.A. seemed to remember a lot more about her "little red convertible" than she did about some pictures that were maybe all wet or something. Or maybe they were just papers or magazine photos? But definitely not pictures that someone took because she would have remembered that. She seemed full of shit to me. Deep Throat could be too, but he has less of a reason to lie and more at stake for telling the truth. The D.A. was in her job til 2004.

Brother Bob really didn't have to kill Catherine as no one believed or cared about the girls anyway. If she'd have gone to the cops, I really don't think anything would have been done.

[bilgistic]

21 hours ago, rabidchipmnk said:

I liked how they made it an explicit point how she recovered the memories on her own (which is more reliable), and did not talk to any of the other survivors until I guess we saw them meet in the second to last episode.  And Teresa and the other victims never had repressed their memories, but they were consistent between each other.  Of course eyewitness testimony is like, the most unreliable type of evidence, but these are points in her favor.  I'd agree that if anything is suspect, it would be the "seeing the body" part; seems almost like symbolism for the other role Sister Cathy had in the story (and maggots are what you'd think of on a dead person).

Murder or no, those guys should all have rotted just ("just") for the abuse.

Eyewitness testimony about a third-person crime is VERY different than one's own recovered memories. Here's some more info about how the brain represses memories of traumatic events, and how memories may recover later: https://www.sidran.org/resources/for-survivors-and-loved-ones/what-are-traumatic-memories/.

[skittl3862]

I don't think Gerry Koob is guilty. His reaction to all of this doesn't seem like someone who committed murder and covered it up. He's a former priest and now minister; he's hardly Robert Durst. I'm sure the police tried to nail it on "the boyfriend" back in 1969, but they didn't charge him. And a newbie priest Koob wasn't nearly important enough compared to Maskell to get special cover-up favors.

I liked that they showed the cop looking into the cold case was shook about the missing evidence. The fact that all the evidence involving Father Maskell and Sister Cathy has accidentally been destroyed or gone missing is inexcusable and highly suspicious.

[MaryWebGirl]

I feel like the only reason they spent so much time on Koob as a suspect is because that's who the police had been pushing right after the murder, so to not go into it at all would have looked biased on the filmmakers' parts.

[Shorty186]

Regarding Brian Schmidt's story, he didn't mention his father being there at all, right? Just his Uncle Billy and other uncle. But his mom and sister only mention his father coming home bloody, so there's a big inconsistency there. I wonder how old he was supposed to be at the time. 

There are so many moving pieces and people involved, I almost feel like I need Gemma's coffee filter map myself. 

[skittl3862]

Maskell was abusing young boys so the Catholic Church's solution is send him to an all-girls school! That will fix everything! Those fuckers.

I live in Maryland. I will be contacting my Maryland State Senator on Monday about the statue of limitations on child sex abuse in our state, and send a very special fuck you to Mike Miller and Joe Vallario, two dinosaurs well past their prime and completely out of step with the Maryland values. And shocker, both of them are Catholic. I can't believe in 2017 and post-Spotlight, the Catholic Church is continuing to get away with this.

I don't think Billy Schmidt was involved in the murder. I think he was just odd and gay and his sister-in-law sensationalized unrelated incidents because of the nun connection. I think the whole necklace thing was a serious stretch. I think Gerry Koob is innocent. Edgar seemed like he has dementia, but his wife's story of him coming home covered in blood seems more plausible than Billy's weird nun obsession. Regardless of who killed her, I'm sure the Catholic Church was behind it. All that evidence going missing isn't something that Baltimore City police would make happen to clear a drunken wife-beater.

The Catholic Church and their defenders are the worst.

[rabidchipmnk]

On 6/2/2017 at 11:04 PM, bilgistic said:

Eyewitness testimony about a third-person crime is VERY different than one's own recovered memories. Here's some more info about how the brain represses memories of traumatic events, and how memories may recover later: https://www.sidran.org/resources/for-survivors-and-loved-ones/what-are-traumatic-memories/.

Thanks for the link! It's great to have concrete resources on that (really not-great) topic.

[kieyra]

On 6/3/2017 at 2:04 AM, bilgistic said:

Eyewitness testimony about a third-person crime is VERY different than one's own recovered memories. Here's some more info about how the brain represses memories of traumatic events, and how memories may recover later: https://www.sidran.org/resources/for-survivors-and-loved-ones/what-are-traumatic-memories/.

Another thanks here. I'm currently working on a novel that hinges on some repressed memories, and was kind of disheartened to see that the Wikipedia article on same is full of "needs citations" and "controversy".  However, your article above, despite being from the 90s, got me on a better research track ... the word we're looking for here (both in my case and probably Jean's) is "dissociation". 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation_(psychology)

Edited June 4, 2017 by kieyra

[ladle]

On 6/2/2017 at 8:55 PM, Pogojoco said:

A girl from the school and her boyfriend were there.

Can someone remind me how we know that detail?  Was that something that Abbie and Gemma uncovered? 

[ElleMo]

On 6/2/2017 at 4:32 AM, rabidchipmnk said:

Honestly I was surprised we didn't hear about any of them getting pregnant.  Statistically I'd think that would have to have happened... or was he spiking the cokes with birth control too?  Or we just have a 40-years-late sampling bias.

I think it is a sampling bias. First, not every abuse victim will speak up .  Also, on the last episode, one of the women  said she knew the names of 35 women who were victims and some of them were no longer alive because of suicide and drugs.  

I obviously have no proof of this, but I am positive that this doctor performed back alley abortions on some of the girls in the school.  Why else would he have his personal oncall gynecologist????  No better way to seriously fuck up a catholic girl then to have a priest rape her, get her pregnant and be forced to have an abortion.  Those girls are very likely to become drug addicts or develop severe depression.  

Also, even if they were still alive, they may not want to speak about it.  Even with the other women talking about it, there is a lot of shame and self blame.  Catholics consider abortion murder.  It's difficult enough for abused people to recognize that the abuse was not their fault;  it's got to be more difficult when you consider yourself a murderer.

I am so humbled with how these women have been able to go ahead with their lives and recover from this horrific abuse.

I can understand why the parents trusted the priest to counsel their daughters.  It was how they were raised and was the societal norm at the time.  But who the hell thinks it is ok for a priest to take their child to a gyn.  (Or any doctor for that matter?)

Edited June 5, 2017 by ElleMo

[Nire]

20 hours ago, Shorty186 said:

Regarding Brian Schmidt's story, he didn't mention his father being there at all, right? Just his Uncle Billy and other uncle. But his mom and sister only mention his father coming home bloody, so there's a big inconsistency there. I wonder how old he was supposed to be at the time. 

There are so many moving pieces and people involved, I almost feel like I need Gemma's coffee filter map myself. 

He didn't mention his father at all.  My guess is Billy saw something and was threatened causing unusual behaviors OR he saw something and didn't ever come forward because of fear and felt guilty hence the nun inthe attic.  

I think the driving at night being followed by a man dressed as a nun was bizarre but not necessarily connected.  Plus it was dark couldn't he just have had a dark hood?

[Pogojoco]

5 hours ago, ladle said:

Can someone remind me how we know that detail?  Was that something that Abbie and Gemma uncovered? 

I can't remember if it's in the documentary (I'm pretty sure it is.) But it is for sure in the Huffington Post article from 2015 the documentary is based on. 

[ladle]

Thanks for sharing, Pogojoco!  I so wish the filmmakers had been able to interview this woman!  (And potentially her boyfriend, for corroboration.) 

[iMonrey]

Quote

There are so many moving pieces and people involved, I almost feel like I need Gemma's coffee filter map myself. 

I actually did draw a little family tree, LOL. Made it easier to follow. Unfortunately, there are just too many missing pieces - no evident links between the Schmidts and Edgar Davidson; no links between the Schmidts or Davidson and Maskell. 

[Pogojoco]

17 hours ago, ladle said:

Thanks for sharing, Pogojoco!  I so wish the filmmakers had been able to interview this woman!  (And potentially her boyfriend, for corroboration.) 

I think perhaps the documentary might encourage her and make her feel safer to talk. Also, it's hard because the boyfriend might no longer be living. I haven't re-watched  the documentary, but I'm sure this incident is mentioned/recreated. I can't remember who is interviewed, though. 

Deep Throat from the police department might be a break in the case, too. 

Edited June 6, 2017 by Pogojoco

[ElleMo]

On 5/30/2017 at 4:49 PM, rwgrab said:

I also walked away from the series thinking we had two different crimes that weren't necessarily related, though.  We have the sexual abuse occurring in various parishes in Baltimore at the time.  Then we had the murder of Sister Cathy.  To my recollection, the only thing we heard that connected the two were Jean's memories of seeing Cathy's body.  That's not enough evidence for me to say that I think Maskell was even involved in her death.  By that point,  Cathy had moved on to another school and hadn't, it seems, been able to hinder Maskell's activities in any way.  The idea that she was an imminent threat to him to be silenced wasn't proven to me.  For that case, I had the same reservations that others have mentioned about Koob.  His story at the police station was kind of bizarre, and then he had that typed note from Cathy about her feelings for him.  But...Cathy's sister talked about all the handwritten letters she received from Cathy, so it's strange to me that Koob would have received a typewritten one with such personal revelations.  Suspicious, sure, but not enough to hang a case on.

I agree that Maskell did not seemed threatened by Sister Cathy at all.  She was the one kicked out of Keogh, not him.  It was clear who the church believed.  I believe it is more likely that there was a serial killer on Baltimore at that time.

Jean's memory might not be real.  If it is, perhaps Maskell heard someone's confession and asked where the body was and was able to find her take Jean, more to torture her than because he felt she was a real threat to him

[OtterMommy]

1 hour ago, ElleMo said:

I agree that Maskell did not seemed threatened by Sister Cathy at all.  She was the one kicked out of Keogh, not him.  It was clear who the church believed.  I believe it is more likely that there was a serial killer on Baltimore at that time.

Jean's memory might not be real.  If it is, perhaps Maskell heard someone's confession and asked where the body was and was able to find her take Jean, more to torture her than because he felt she was a real threat to him

Was Jean kicked out?  I thought she had requested a year to work in a public school as an "experiment."

[MaryWebGirl]

I feel like they never made it clear exactly what happened. I forgot who said it fairly early in the series that Cathy and Russell sort of requested living outside of the convent and working at a public school, but I honestly doubt that. I imagine they did make waves about Maskell, and the move was a compromise their superiors came up with. I'm sure the school wouldn't just let a well-liked, energetic teacher waltz off to the public sector. 

[ElleMo]

11 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

Was Jean kicked out?  I thought she had requested a year to work in a public school as an "experiment."

5 minutes ago, MaryWebGirl said:

I feel like they never made it clear exactly what happened. I forgot who said it fairly early in the series that Cathy and Russell sort of requested living outside of the convent and working at a public school, but I honestly doubt that. I imagine they did make waves about Maskell, and the move was a compromise their superiors came up with. I'm sure the school wouldn't just let a well-liked, energetic teacher waltz off to the public sector. 

I had the same interpretation at MARYWEBGIRL.  I don't believe that her assignment was completely her choice nor was it her idea.   If she were so intent on helping out these girls, then why would she ask to leave knowing that Maskell was still there around these vulnerable girls?

On 5/29/2017 at 1:15 PM, Proclone said:

Also did anyone else think that Cathy was telling Gerry in the letter they read, in a round about way that she wasn't pregnant.  She starts the letter by telling him (paraphrased) that she's moody because her period just came...ten days late.  I don't know about anyone else, but I don't usually include the state of my menstrual cycle in romantic letters.  Perhaps she had spoken to him before and told him she was late, and this was a way to let him know she wasn't pregnant.  This might be part of reason Gerry conflated the story about uterus/vagina wrapped in newspaper.  He was already preoccupied thinking about Cathy's reproductive organs, then she's murdered, and the police show him...something and his brain makes it the organ that might have given birth to his kids.  I know that's a lot of supposition, but it's just where my mind went.

Oh, absolutely she was telling him that she wasn't pregnant.  I picked up on that right away.  But as someone else mentioned, the sister spoke about handwritten letters but the ones to Koob were typewritten, so that it odd.