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S03.E23: Article 5

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Elizabeth heads to Brussels to seek NATO’s support against Russia when it threatens to invade Bulgaria, but when France refuses to cooperate, it could threaten the alliance’s very existence. Also, Henry’s new government role has him dive into the Russia issue and turn to his former operative, Dmitri Petrov for help, and as Nadine and Mike B’s relationship heats up, Elizabeth finds out information about her old friend that makes her question his loyalties.

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Loved the doggie smile.

Liked the final scene a lot.

Not sure what to think of the fleeting Dimitri-Stevie chemistry while Jareth waits in the car.

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5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

....Not sure what to think of the fleeting Dmitri-Stevie chemistry while Jareth waits in the car.

Poor Jareth. It looks like his days are numbered. If Henry not in the room, Stevie looked ready to jump those flashing big biceps and bulky forearms in that short sleeve, tight fitting dark shirt.  My TV screen started glowing. No wonder there was no wedding this season for the oldest daughter.

Edited by VinceW
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I think Jareth's days have been numbered since he failed to stand up for her to his Mum. But yes there were definitely sparks flying.

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8 hours ago, VinceW said:

Stevie looked ready to jump those flashing big biceps and bulky forearms in that short sleeve, tight fitting dark shirt.

Your gymslip is showing!

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Of course France.  They'll eat anything, including their pride.  And anything that isn't them.  Too scary.  Don't look at us unless you have tourist dollars.

Edited by Happycatisfine

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I'm not a diplomat, but I've seen people play one on tv.  Looking at the world map, I don't think Turkey would be waiting around on NATO to do something.  Istanbul is right around the corner from the Bulgarian coast, and they would consider that a clear and present danger.  That's my humble opinion, anyway.  And what's with the France bashing on the shows, anyway?  They aren't doing so well this year.

I have to agree about the Stevie-Dimitri scene.  It's a wonder they didn't have to repair the floor from the impact of that anvil.

We're going to see a lot more of Mike's antics, I think.  I don't think his denial was completely up to snuff.

I just wish that tv would quit showing people holding mugs of hot coffee by the bowl instead of the handle.  Try this at home, kids!

Edited by Dowel Jones
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50 minutes ago, Dowel Jones said:

I just wish that tv would quit showing people holding mugs of hot coffee by the bowl instead of the handle.

I wish TV would show someone pour a cup of coffee more than quarter full!

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Weird. Just the other day, I made this comment on the thread for the previous episode about something I had thought in Season 2:

"Actually, way back when, I thought Stevie was going to have a thing with Dmitri. But since the McCords are so big on keeping their work life and home life separate, I suppose it's very unlikely they'll ever meet."

And now circumstances contrive for them to meet and they were definitely checking each other out.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness
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1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

I'm not a diplomat, but I've seen people play one on tv.  Looking at the world map, I don't think Turkey would be waiting around on NATO to do something.  Istanbul is right around the corner from the Bulgarian coast, and they would consider that a clear and present danger.  That's my humble opinion, anyway. 

In real life, Turkey and Russia are allies in Syria. So, if the show is going with that, too, then Turkey wouldn't worry.

 

1 hour ago, Dowel Jones said:

And what's with the France bashing on the shows, anyway?  They aren't doing so well this year.

I think it is because of France's real life election and the assumption that the other candidate would win. I wonder if that's why they were talking about impeachment of their fictional President in order to course-correct "their" France or if they had planned that anyway.

 

I thought the mom really looked stupid and ignorant when she said that the majority probably wouldn't be able to find Ukraine on a map. If that's the case, I suggest going back to school.

I'm confused about Daisy and her pregnancy. She was three months along two weeks/episodes ago. Now it looked like they weren't bothering to really hide her real life pregnancy which is clearly further along than three weeks.

I'm not sure how I feel about the episode otherwise. Bringing back Dimitri made more sense than I would have expected it to make. I would have liked to see Bess and Henry discuss it though as I doubt that Henry knows the exact contents of the peace deal. But I guess, you can't have everything. (Though they could have swapped the scene at the CIA with a scene with Bess; Dimitri was the only important take-away anyway, so he could have talked to her about that and we would have had all of the relevant information).

I'm fed up with Henry and his job but that's really nothing new. And aside from the fact that Conrad suddenly wants him to do this job which I find totally ridiculous because what reason could he possibly have to want an untrained amateur running a team in his IC, I find it has reached the point of being unbelievable that Henry's doing all that he's doing. Yes it's a TV show and yes, you always have to suspend belief to an extend, but these constant POTUS briefings from someone who has no idea what he's doing have really taken it way too far.  

Are we really supposed to think that Stevie was romantically interested in Dimitri? I was actually wondering if maybe she recognized him from somewhere though I don't know where she could recognize him from. It was a weird scene.

Smiling Gordon was cute and I like Nadine and Mike together, too. I also thought that it was kind of cute that she told Daisy, or rather how she did it. As private as Nadine is, I also thought that it was okay to do it. She's gone through a lot of character development lately.

I thought that Bess' sentiments in this episode were interesting. Even though they were in a completely different context, they felt very current, and I really felt for her and her exhaustion. I just wanted Henry to give her a hug and never let go. It was a very cute gesture of Henry's to get the kids come to the cabin. But no hot water? Seriously? That is Bess' idea of relaxing? I understand that she doesn't want to have any communication devices (though I doubt that she really was unreachable, or could be for that matter) but no hot water? Yuck! And since that was cabin 12, I'm assuming her lucky detail was staying in another cabin without any hot water? I'm sure they were thrilled ;-)

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12 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

I thought the mom really looked stupid and ignorant when she said that the majority probably wouldn't be able to find Ukraine on a map. If that's the case, I suggest going back to school.

This bothered me as well. It implies that the country (I thought it was a different country, though I wasn't paying much attention and need to rewatch the episode) is 'beneath' them, not worth being able to locate on a map. It also implies that societal ignorance is a reason to decide not to provide aid. The fact that a majority of Americans cannot locate a country on a map is a failure of AMERICANS, not the country that needs assistance. Apathy is a somewhat related but distinct issue. If she had said that a majority of Americans do not care, then that's a different problem. But relating providing assistance to Americans being able to locate a country on a map sends a pretty terrible message.

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22 minutes ago, secnarf said:

This bothered me as well. It implies that the country (I thought it was a different country, though I wasn't paying much attention and need to rewatch the episode)

It was the Ukraine conflict her son died in a while ago (I think she said something about a year at the beginning) and it was Bulgaria which Russia attacked and what prompted the Article 5 triggering.

Maybe she meant Bulgaria outside the WH though? Even so, if a conflict was about to happen, I think people who speak out against or for it should look up all the information that they can find and that includes where it is located on a map.

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1 hour ago, CheshireCat said:

I'm fed up with Henry and his job but that's really nothing new. And aside from the fact that Conrad suddenly wants him to do this job which I find totally ridiculous because what reason could he possibly have to want an untrained amateur running a team in his IC, I find it has reached the point of being unbelievable that Henry's doing all that he's doing. Yes it's a TV show and yes, you always have to suspend belief to an extend, but these constant POTUS briefings from someone who has no idea what he's doing have really taken it way too far. 

At least they had Henry himself lampshade it, finally. "Why would they ask a religion professor to do this job?"

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On 5/22/2017 at 11:09 PM, CheshireCat said:

I'm fed up with Henry and his job but that's really nothing new. And aside from the fact that Conrad suddenly wants him to do this job which I find totally ridiculous because what reason could he possibly have to want an untrained amateur running a team in his IC, I find it has reached the point of being unbelievable that Henry's doing all that he's doing. Yes it's a TV show and yes, you always have to suspend belief to an extend, but these constant POTUS briefings from someone who has no idea what he's doing have really taken it way too far.  

Tim Daly "Whenever I talk to the writers, I always push them to lean on the fact that Henry struggles so hard with the ethics of what he does and to make that complicated. Because he’s a patriotic guy, he’s a guy of faith, he wants to help his country, and yet he’s cool and he’s also someone who doesn’t see things in black and white, and he pays an emotional price whenever he has to do something that’s dubious. That’s what I always push towards, and they’re very good at it."

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Are we really supposed to think that Stevie was romantically interested in Dmitri? I was actually wondering if maybe she recognized him from somewhere though I don't know where she could recognize him from. It was a weird scene.

Tim Daly "He’s coming back into the fold. It’s this weird thing where the intelligence community now has a need for him, and Henry finds a way to bring him back in."  It was put in there as a teaser for next season and not for just one episode. That would move him back to recurring status and maybe the sister as well. It was weird in the sense that it portends that the Russian invasion story was solely put in place by the writers in order that the Dmitri agreement could be voided and allow him back in DC to work under Henry at his new CIA assignment. 

Edited by VinceW

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10 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Are we really supposed to think that Stevie was romantically interested in Dimitri?

Yes, that's exactly what we're supposed to think.  And we're supposed to note that Stevie was wearing long black gloves and Dimitri was dressed like a navvy, and conclude that this matchup will not meet with the approval of the remainder of the cast.

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10 hours ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

At least they had Henry himself lampshade it, finally. "Why would they ask a religion professor to do this job?"

If only they had taken it further... Shouldn't Henry be in as much of an identity crisis as Stevie is? I know they touched on it but I really would like to see less of the actual job but more of his struggle because that is what Henry is all about. He isn't shallow. He's got depth. And I think his character could grow leaps and bounds if he actually admitted that if he were honest with himself, this government work isn't really for him and it compromises too much of what he values. Wouldn't that be something? It would fit right with the show's premise of being "different". (But my cynical self thinks that Madam Secretary is about as "out of the box" as CBS allows them to be).

 

9 hours ago, VinceW said:

Tim Daly "Whenever I talk to the writers, I always push them to lean on the fact that Henry struggles so hard with the ethics of what he does and to make that complicated. Because he’s a patriotic guy, he’s a guy of faith, he wants to help his country, and yet he’s cool and he’s also someone who doesn’t see things in black and white, and he pays an emotional price whenever he has to do something that’s dubious. That’s what I always push towards, and they’re very good at it."

Right, there was that interview... I remember thinking that this last sentence was debateable. ;-)

 

1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

Yes, that's exactly what we're supposed to think.  And we're supposed to note that Stevie was wearing long black gloves and Dimitri was dressed like a navvy, and conclude that this matchup will not meet with the approval of the remainder of the cast.

I think if it doesn't it will be for other reasons than money. Dimitri's a former Russian spy who is, apparently, officially dead. Dating the Secretary of State's daughter sounds like something he can't do. Imagine the implications beyond the fact that he's supposed to be dead - the Russians wouldn't trust Bess ever again.

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45 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

If only they had taken it further... Shouldn't Henry be in as much of an identity crisis as Stevie is? I know they touched on it but I really would like to see less of the actual job but more of his struggle because that is what Henry is all about. He isn't shallow. He's got depth. And I think his character could grow leaps and bounds if he actually admitted that if he were honest with himself, this government work isn't really for him and it compromises too much of what he values. Wouldn't that be something? It would fit right with the show's premise of being "different". (But my cynical self thinks that Madam Secretary is about as "out of the box" as CBS allows them to be).

Or admit to himself that he's addicted to the danger and adrenaline.

45 minutes ago, CheshireCat said:

II think if it doesn't it will be for other reasons than money. Dimitri's a former Russian spy who is, apparently, officially dead. Dating the Secretary of State's daughter sounds like something he can't do. Imagine the implications beyond the fact that he's supposed to be dead - the Russians wouldn't trust Bess ever again.

Henry said their deal was nullified when the Russians invaded Bulgaria, though. Although Dmitri (no I between the D and M) still needs to use a cover identity for his own physical safety from potential Russian assassins, there's no longer a question of Bess keeping her word not to use him as an asset.

Edited by Noneofyourbusiness

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22 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Or admit to himself that he's addicted to the danger and adrenaline.

Or that. But I'm not sure they could sell it. He left the military before Stevie was born, and was merely an asset for the NSA before. I also was under the impression that it was a one-time gig before and that would mean that until Bess became Sec of State, he was completely happy being a college professor (and that in itself completely contradicts his being happy to be the man beside the woman, but I'm sure creating that kind of a narrative (that when his wife gets the high profile job, he wants in on the action, too) was unintentional).

 

22 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Henry said their deal was nullified when the Russians invaded Bulgaria, though. Although Dmitri (no I between the D and M) still needs to use a cover identity for his own physical safety from potential Russian assassins, there's no longer a question of Bess keeping her word not to use him as an asset.

I'm not sure the Russians would see it that way. It sure was a way to use Dmitri, but I would also imagine that it was an unofficial way. I was not under the Impression that the deal had been falling apart officially. I guess, we'll see what happens next season, but I was under the impression that this ended like the Iran-Israel conflict - in the end, they put all of the terms back in place and sort of forgot that everything else ever happened. I would imagine that everything else would have wider ramifications.

Either way, I don't think it's as simple as saying the deal is void when it comes to the Sec of State's daughter and a former spy dating.

That said, it's interesting that the peace deal was mentioned anyway since Dmitri's exchange happened separately. Are we to assume that the agreement that they reached over the exchange of Buckley and Dmitri was an extension of the peace deal? (That Dmitri can't work for US IC ever again can hardly have been part of the original agreement since Russia had him and Russia respecting NATO boarders would most likely have been part of the original deal and not the exchange)

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17 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Yes, that's exactly what we're supposed to think.  And we're supposed to note that Stevie was wearing long black gloves and Dmitri was dressed like a navvy, and conclude that this match up will not meet with the approval of the remainder of the cast.

From that scene, it seems obvious that a match up is coming in the new season. I wonder if the writers tell us in the first episode next fall that a breakup between Stevie and Jareth happened during the hiatus in order to get that out of the way. Their so-called engagement happened off screen and he has been nowhere to be found since that news in S2 finale. 

Edited by VinceW

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7 minutes ago, VinceW said:

From that scene, it seems obvious that a match up is coming in the new season. I wonder if the writers tell us that a breakup between Stevie and Jareth happened during the hiatus in order to get that out of the way. Their so-called engagement happened off screen and he has been nowhere to be found since that news. 

He has appeared since that news.

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25 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

He has appeared since that news.

I didn't mean that literally, but rather shown together as a real loving engaged couple. 

Edited by VinceW
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1 hour ago, VinceW said:

I didn't mean that literally, but rather shown together as a real loving engaged couple. 

Yeah, his being "in the limo" doesn't bode well for the actor being on the show next season, I think. On the thread for "Revelation" last week, I was saying they should show more of Stevie and Jareth getting out and doing young person things.

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On 5/23/2017 at 5:02 PM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

Yeah, his being "in the limo" doesn't bode well for the actor being on the show next season, I think. On the thread for "Revelation" last week, I was saying they should show more of Stevie and Jareth getting out and doing young person things.

Casting news for S4 should start to trickle out in July. In addition, some media outlet reporter, at first chance, will ask the producers about that scene with Stevie at the house.  If Dmitri is still in witness protection, it was odd that Henry would meet with him at his house and risk him to exposure from Russian surveillance as well as allowing his daughter to identify him. Dmitri probably should not have told Stevie that he works with Henry at the War College since all the kids know by now that Dad is doing 'intelligence consulting' which is code for spy work and his cover stories(car accident,etc.) are just a ruse. 

Edited by VinceW

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On 5/21/2017 at 10:03 PM, shapeshifter said:

Not sure what to think of the fleeting Dimitri-Stevie chemistry while Jareth waits in the car.

This also was a thing that made me go "hmmmmmm." (I almost felt like there was some recognition...?)

I loved all of it. And I learned more about Article 5 and NATO! It made me miss Will Bailey and his father the Supreme Allied Commander.

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On 5/25/2017 at 2:34 AM, Noneofyourbusiness said:

That's weird. I said "in the limo", which is where Stevie said he was, but your quote of my comment said "in limbo". Auto Correct?

My edit tool does auto spell check unless the text is in highlight mode. I changed the spelling outside the tool to the correct context. It will be interesting to see how the writers handle Jareth moving forward. 

Edited by VinceW

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France quit NATO in the late 1960s and didn't rejoin for another 20 years. The French have been more supportive of NATO in recent times than we have.

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On ‎23‎.‎05‎.‎2017 at 7:59 PM, VinceW said:

Casting news for S4 should start to trickle out in July. In addition, some media outlet reporter, at first chance, will ask the producers about that scene with Stevie at the house.  If Dmitri is still in witness protection, it was odd that Henry would meet with him at his house and risk him to exposure from Russian surveillance as well as allowing his daughter to identify him. Dmitri probably should not have told Stevie that he works with Henry at the War College since all the kids know by now that Dad is doing 'intelligence consulting' which is code for spy work and his cover stories(car accident,etc.) are just a ruse. 

Generally, I agree with what you say. I wondered about bringing Dmitri into his house, too.

I don't remember if they used the term witness protection but I think the reason that he was tucked away in Phoenix with a new identity isn't because they're afraid of Russian surveillance but because officially, the Russians killed him. Since they did the exchange, the would know that he's alive though, so there'd be no need to hide him because of that. But Conrad said in one of the earlier episodes that he can't divulge any details about the exchange regarding Peter Buckley, so I'm assuming that the deal involved an agreement that neither side would admit to Dmitri still being alive. That is probably a result of the fact that revealing Dmitri's identity was never an official part of the peace deal.

Since the Russians would probably not be pleased with the fact that Henry's using Dmitri for spy work even though they broke the deal it makes sense that Henry didn't take him anywhere official but, as you said, taking him home didn't seem like the smartest thing to do. I guess, a hotel somewhere in Phoenix would have made more sense.

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2 hours ago, CheshireCat said:

Generally, I agree with what you say. I wondered about bringing Dmitri into his house, too.

I don't remember if they used the term witness protection but I think the reason that he was tucked away in Phoenix with a new identity isn't because they're afraid of Russian surveillance but because officially, the Russians killed him. Since they did the exchange, the would know that he's alive though, so there'd be no need to hide him because of that. But Conrad said in one of the earlier episodes that he can't divulge any details about the exchange regarding Peter Buckley, so I'm assuming that the deal involved an agreement that neither side would admit to Dmitri still being alive. That is probably a result of the fact that revealing Dmitri's identity was never an official part of the peace deal.

Since the Russians would probably not be pleased with the fact that Henry's using Dmitri for spy work even though they broke the deal it makes sense that Henry didn't take him anywhere official but, as you said, taking him home didn't seem like the smartest thing to do. I guess, a hotel somewhere in Phoenix would have made more sense.

Dmitri is in witness protection under FBI oversight. Whether he is officially dead or not is not relevant. The Russians know he is alive which makes him subject to harm from assassins.  

Edited by VinceW

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2 hours ago, VinceW said:

Dmitri is in witness protection under FBI oversight. Whether he is officially dead or not is not relevant. The Russians know he is alive which makes him subject to harm from assassins.  

While I wouldn't put it past the Russians to send an assassin, I'm not sure they would because of the diplomatic consequences. I think the Dmitri situation is more like one with the submarine guys from S1. They, too, were given new identities because officially, they were dead. What is interesting to note though is that the Russians always seem to be the ones who get to save face while the US draws the short straw (Conrad couldn't announce that they had taken the submarine guys in and he couldn't announce that they had exchanged Buckley to save someone else either. If I were him, I'd use a different negotiation tactic the next time around ;-))

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Every time poor Dmitri gets pulled back in for some sort of government assist, I think to myself, "Oh man, is this the time that Henry's going to get him killed?" I find his appearances very stressful to watch. Why can't they just let the poor kid enjoy his life with his sister? 

If getting involved with Stevie gets him killed, I'm going to be very pissed off.

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6 hours ago, sinkwriter said:

Every time poor Dmitri gets pulled back in for some sort of government assist, I think to myself, "Oh man, is this the time that Henry's going to get him killed?"

Me too.  Henry has put that kid's life in danger over and over.  

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Henry:  "Dmitri, what are you doing this weekend?  I'd like to invite you to dinner at our house, and meet my daughter Stevie."

Dmitri:  "Noooooooooooo!"

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6 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Henry:  "Dmitri, what are you doing this weekend?  I'd like to invite you to dinner at our house, and meet my daughter Stevie."

Dmitri:  "Noooooooooooo!"

Dmitri will have a 'hard' time sitting at the dinner table and still be able to enjoy food and conversation with Stevie and family.

Edited by VinceW

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5 hours ago, VinceW said:

Dmitri will have a 'hard' time sitting at the dinner table and still be able to enjoy food and conversation with Stevie and family.

Well, it shouldn't be anything unusual for him.  Every time he's been anywhere near the McCord family in the past, he's been thoroughly screwed....

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1 hour ago, Netfoot said:

Well, it shouldn't be anything unusual for him.  Every time he's been anywhere near the McCord family in the past, he's been thoroughly screwed....

Elizabeth once told Stevie that 'hard' times can be the best of times, but I don't think Stevie realized it would 'come' this way.

Edited by VinceW

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On 5/26/2017 at 3:35 AM, sinkwriter said:

Every time poor Dmitri gets pulled back in for some sort of government assist, I think to myself, "Oh man, is this the time that Henry's going to get him killed?" I find his appearances very stressful to watch. Why can't they just let the poor kid enjoy his life with his sister? 

If getting involved with Stevie gets him killed, I'm going to be very pissed off.

Stevie could be in danger as well. It was strange that Henry would bring him to his home and let Stevie be able to identify him. He is a CIA asset and a spy. He gave her his false name. I am sure Elizabeth would not let this happen. The whole Dmitri/Stevie thing might just be a fake out for next season. The season finale tied its low series rating in both the demo (0.7) and LIVE viewers (7.44)

Edited by VinceW

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31 minutes ago, VinceW said:

Stevie could be in danger as well. It was strange that Henry would bring him to his home and let Stevie be able to identify him. He is a CIA asset and a spy. He gave her his false name. I am sure Elizabeth would not let this happen. The whole Dmitri/Stevie thing might just be a fake out for next season. The season finale tied its low series rating in both the demo (0.7) and LIVE viewers (7.44)

Well, there was an award show going on and some people also didn't seem to know that there was another episode. I don't know what it is with this show but this is the second season that I've seen comments that people thought there were only 22 episodes. And not just casual viewers who tune in to be entertained, but the viewers who follow the actors on twitter and stuff like that. Weird.  

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On 5/27/2017 at 4:31 PM, CheshireCat said:

Well, there was an award show going on and some people also didn't seem to know that there was another episode. I don't know what it is with this show but this is the second season that I've seen comments that people thought there were only 22 episodes. And not just casual viewers who tune in to be entertained, but the viewers who follow the actors on twitter and stuff like that. Weird.  

Award show issue is a weak argument. IMO. The last few episodes during sweeps with top writers: Matt Ward, David Grae, Barbara Hall not much help with the rating numbers.   David Grae effort closing out the Henry bombing arc was his poorest of the series. NCIS-LA 8PM holds steady whether there persists some seasonal sport overrun or competing against some kind of award show.   CBS moving MS to 10PM Sunday next year will risk ratings sinking further by competing with local and network news.  Unfortunate because the cast includes so many great stage actors.

4-30 MS (9PM)  0.7    7.88       NCIS-LA (8PM)   1.0      9.08

5-7   MS            0.7    7.58       NCIS-LA              1.0      9.06

5-14 MS            0.7    7.83       NCIS-LA (F)         1.2      9.40

5-21 MS (F)       0.7    7.44    

Edited by VinceW

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