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S02.E11: Here There Be Dragons

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Wow, my concerns that Bobbie was not as awesome as she was in the book certainly were addressed in this episode!  I have to admit that I don't understand at all why Naomi decided to split off and help with the refugees - she certainly understands how dangerous the proto-molecule is, especially in the wrong hands.

And, because it can never be said enough, I love Chrisjen and her magnificent outfits (although I thought her lipstick was a bit dark).  I also have come to like her sidekick? Bodyguard? Gofer?

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Breaks my heart that they were experimenting on children.  There is no punishment harsh enough for people who harm babies.  (Thinking about the Syria pics.)

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That speech about the chrysalis may be the most insidious emotional abuse I've ever seen inflicted on a child in TV. That was a sickening moment, made even worse by the subsequent reveal of what they were doing to the kids. It's unfathomable.

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I like the way Chrisjen gave Bobbie the time and opportunity if she wanted to take it and escape.  I also love that Chrisjen Avasarala and Bobbie Draper, two of the most dangerous women in the system, look to be heading for a meeting/trap set by Jules-Pierre Mao.  I'm kind of licking my chops in anticipation of the shit-hammer those two are going to drop on that bastard.

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That map was awesome! Alex actually found a way to get the Roci to "fall" through Space unto Ganymede, excellent!

Though its always a pet peeve about scale on space shows; you have to be very, very, very far from a heavenly body to see the actual curvature. Those moons/rocks/asteroids/ have to be bigger than most states in order to have those types of gravitational effects.

Felt a twinge of sadness when Naomi and Amos split from Holden. Hopefully they'll stay with both groups in the next episodes. This show has a deft way of telling separate stories and weaving them together as they move along.

Can we get Bobbie and Drummer in the same room, pleeze?

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I love Alex and his piloting skillz. That scene with all the slingshots around the Moons was stunning. Jupiter has a LOT of moons.

Looking forward to Team Chrisjen and Bobbie. For the trip will Chrisjen put on a sensible jumpsuit? 

 Naomi had a son. This is news to me.

Every era has evil scientists who can justify anything. Those poor kids.

Edited by marinw
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20 hours ago, mjc570 said:

I have to admit that I don't understand at all why Naomi decided to split off and help with the refugees - she certainly understands how dangerous the proto-molecule is, especially in the wrong hands.

My take was that Naomi had had enough of the dark side, between the killing of the Somnabulist's captain's husband and the injury to Amos. She needed to do some hands-on helping just to cleanse her soul a little.

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Question: Does anyone recognize the Martian Embassy? That building looks very familiar. I’m guessing it’s the on the campus of the University of Toronto.

As and added bonus, we see the surface of Venus!

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10 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Can we get Bobbie and Drummer in the same room, pleeze?

I don't know if there's a room built that could contain that much awesome.  It's pushing things now with Bobbie and Chrisjen.

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Amos is still the best part of the show, aside from the awesome writing this season. Bravo to Syfy for getting it right.  

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11 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Can we get Bobbie and Drummer in the same room, pleeze?

I have a theory that Drummer betrayed Fred Johnson and capped those two guys at the end of the failed Tycho takeover, not for revenge, but to silence them. 

[I haven't read the books]

Edited by JZL
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I hope that isn't the last  Naomi and Holden will see each other. That parting had an ominous feel to it.

Great episode. Loved the bits with Alex slingshotting around Jupiter's moons will talking to the ship like it is a person, and Bobby giving that Martian official a sound beating. 

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Damn, Bobbie has had enough of being shit on by the Martians!  Loved her beating down Captain Martens (Peter Outerbridge sure is good at getting his ass kicked, judging from this and past roles), and defecting to Earthers.  Sure, they might have their own issues and shadiness going on, but considering the alternatives, this is her best shot.  Plus, it's not like she is aligning herself with any mere mortal: she's working with Chrisjen!  This should be fun.  Especially since Chrisjen has been contacted by Jules-Pierre Mao, and is planning on a meeting.  Oh boy!

I wonder if the Martians wanted everyone to die or if they always attended Bobbie to survive their test, because they needed someone to sell it to the Earthers.  If so, I wonder how she was selected to be the survivor.

The doctor and the scientists were using the proto-molecule on children?  Wow, that is fucked up to say the least.  If they ever do find that guy, I hope either Holden and Meng take a page out of Miller's (RIP) handbook, and just end him, before he can find some way to worm himself out of it.  So, I guess the question is what happen to Meng's daughter?  Is she one of the creatures that is out and about?  Hell, is she the one that Amos' accidentally unleashed into the world (in dark, but hilarious fashion.)

Aw, the band has been broken up!  Naomi and Amos are staying behind, while Holden and Alex (and Meng) are going after the proto-molecule creature.  I hope they aren't separated for too long.  But I had a feeling that Naomi's uncomfortableness over watching Holden become harder, would come into play.  I know she had other reasons for staying, but I have a feeling that is still part of her reason.

Alex continues to be the best (well, other then Amos.)  And, of course, he's now talking to the ship.  Pretty sure every space pilot ends up doing so at one point or another. 

Looks like Eros is not out of the playing field, yet!  What have those poor scientists stumbled upon?

Edited by thuganomics85
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Yeah, Holden is pretty much Captain Ahab, at this point. Obsessed with stopping the protomolecule and getting those responsible. To the extent that he's losing perspective on what's important in his life. To the point that Naomi has split. If and when this is all over and the crew reunites, they're going to need to have a proper sit down to clear the air. But man, if he isn't right. These people need to be stopped, and to be punished.

The show has done a really good job of muddying the waters as to who is involved with Protogen. Mars trying to suppress the truth of Ganymede and intimidate Earth over Venus. Errinwright acting like he's going to fall on his sword. Now Protogen apparently offering their new weapon to the highest bidder... well, there will only ever be two potential bidders for that.

Speaking of, Protogen and everyone associated with them are fucking assholes. Happy to murder thousands in the name of research, happy to experiment on kids. They destroyed Eros, destroyed Ganymede. And in the process they're risking all human life in the Belt, because Ganymede produced food for everyone.

I love the way the show uses physics and gravity to offer solutions, like with Alex trying to get to Ganymede without the Roci's drive cone being picked up. Everyone who's watched a space movie knows all about slingshot techniques, but this was a brilliant take on the idea. And it makes Alex look like a boss.

Bobbie having had enough of Mars' lying and demands for obedience was great. This must be the first time in her life that she's actually thought for herself and openly questioned the rightness of her people. It's a difficult thing to come to terms with, but I think Martens really helped her make that choice with his implication that her career was over. Still, so ballsy of her to go through with that. Best moment of the season so far, for Bobbie.

But now the Protomolecule soldier is apparently out there somewhere, and Holden thinks it's a good idea to "go on a hunt"? Yeah, I'd be heading in the opposite direction.

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22 hours ago, Eulipian 5k said:

Can we get Bobbie and Drummer in the same room, pleeze?

I now kind of want to see Bobbie, Drummer, Naomi and Chrisjen have some kind of girls' night out.  Let the galaxy beware.

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Prax's daughter had some sort of immune disorder, as did several other children, which apparently made them experiment fodder. I wonder if they were born with it or it was something the Mad Scientist inflicted on the kids to have the research subjects? And, series doesn't seem to care for scientists. With the exception of the guy on the Venus mission (the one the actor is doing his best to channel Elon Musk for), if you are a scientists on this show, you are evil, evil, evil. Of course, that goes for industrialists (Mao) and a lot of commissioned officers.

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16 hours ago, Scaeva said:

I hope that isn't the last  Naomi and Holden will see each other. That parting had an ominous feel to it.

But Naomi is still the only one who knows she didn't actually destroy that sample of the protomolecule they hid on that asteroid, right? Holden believes they blew it up. 

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1 hour ago, lidarose9 said:

But Naomi is still the only one who knows she didn't actually destroy that sample of the protomolecule they hid on that asteroid, right? Holden believes they blew it up. 

That's why I lean towards the theory that, while Naomi really does want to help the people of Ganymede, her real motivation is to get a ship separate from Holden that she can track down that canister.

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6 hours ago, WildPlum said:

With the exception of the guy on the Venus mission (the one the actor is doing his best to channel Elon Musk for), if you are a scientists on this show, you are evil, evil, evil.

Don't forget Prax, he's a botanist and not evil.

Steven Strait is a good looking guy but the way he kind of squints when Holden is being intense is annoying.  Stop it, Steven. 

Though I'm sure Naomi can handle a weapon, chasing others down to shoot and kill them doesn't really seem to be her thing.  She's the only one unarmed when they go into the area where they find the dying woman.   I was taking it as she did want to go help with the relief effort and everyone would join up later, providing no one got killed.  Though I can understand why Holden doesn't want the no-vac-suit-murdering creature running around where his ship and people are, I can also understand why Naomi says "I'll be over here, helping starving people" instead.   I do like @xaxat's theory that she wants to track down the canister; but I don't think they intend to leave Ganymede separately.  Naomi and Holden may love each other but they are different people with different experiences, priorities and motivations.

I thought Bobbie's actions made perfect sense from what we know of her; she's not going to stand down and lie, her squad was killed and an innocent person blamed.  I like the way Frankie Adams plays her when she meets with Chrisjen - she is a little slumped, but determined.  "You should have been more specific" LOL.  Then she sits up straighter and tells the story.  I like the energy between the two actresses here.   It is hard to do the right thing when it means throwing away the life you've worked for.

8 hours ago, johntfs said:

I now kind of want to see Bobbie, Drummer, Naomi and Chrisjen have some kind of girls' night out.  Let the galaxy beware.

I love that they've all got distinct personalities and are varying degrees of intimidating in different ways. 

"How come I'm the one who always get shot"  from both Amos and Alex, ha!    Gotta blend the humor in. 

Ooh mysterious blue towers on Venus, what could possibly go wrong?

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17 hours ago, raven said:

I thought Bobbie's actions made perfect sense from what we know of her; she's not going to stand down and lie, her squad was killed and an innocent person blamed.  I like the way Frankie Adams plays her when she meets with Chrisjen - she is a little slumped, but determined.  "You should have been more specific" LOL.  Then she sits up straighter and tells the story.  I like the energy between the two actresses here.   It is hard to do the right thing when it means throwing away the life you've worked for.

And not just throwing away the life she worked for - she will be considered a traitor by Martians - she's losing everything for her principles. I kind of hated her before, but I admire and like her now.  I loved the irony of the gung-ho Marine who couldn't wait to fight Earth being scolded as being soft by Martens. Then kicking the shit out of him. Which, imo, was a more impressive scene than if she'd been cast to seem 8 feet tall or whatever she was described as in the book.

On 4/7/2017 at 9:21 AM, WildPlum said:

Prax's daughter had some sort of immune disorder, as did several other children, which apparently made them experiment fodder. I wonder if they were born with it or it was something the Mad Scientist inflicted on the kids to have the research subjects? And, series doesn't seem to care for scientists. With the exception of the guy on the Venus mission (the one the actor is doing his best to channel Elon Musk for), if you are a scientists on this show, you are evil, evil, evil. Of course, that goes for industrialists (Mao) and a lot of commissioned officers.

From the moment Prax talked about other children having the disorder (or was it the father of one of the children) I suspected the disorders were either created, or entirely falsified. That "medicine" could have been some kind of per-curser to the proto-molecule. I also find it interesting that in both cases we've seen, no mother is in sight or even mentioned. Could that have something to do with their choice of victims too?

Edited by Clanstarling
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Well, as has been shown before, the Belters have a variety of medical issues - the guy in the bar shows the ridge on Miller's neck where he was given sub-standard bone growth/strengthening formulas as a child, Dawes talks about his "beautiful sister" that he killed (a mercy killing in his eyes), the developmentally delayed miner's kids in the flashback episode where Fred Johnson offs an entire ship filled with the miners and their families. So there are a variety of issues that kids in the great beyond have. But it seems SO unlikely that all those kids that you see strapped in at the basement lab in Ganymede all have the same autoimmune disorder, unless that is some sort of environmental hazard unique to the situation on Ganymede.

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44 minutes ago, WildPlum said:

But it seems SO unlikely that all those kids that you see strapped in at the basement lab in Ganymede all have the same autoimmune disorder, unless that is some sort of environmental hazard unique to the situation on Ganymede.

Or once the requirements of the experiment were identified, Mao's company set out to find as many children with the disorder as they could across the entire system, and brought them and their parents to Ganymede under the pretense that they were working on a cure.

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23 hours ago, xaxat said:

That's why I lean towards the theory that, while Naomi really does want to help the people of Ganymede, her real motivation is to get a ship separate from Holden that she can track down that canister.

At last count, the protomolecule exists (or existed) on Phoebe, Eros, Ganymede, and Venus, so the idea of containment is getting more and more unrealistic. 

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52 minutes ago, lidarose9 said:

At last count, the protomolecule exists (or existed) on Phoebe, Eros, Ganymede, and Venus, so the idea of containment is getting more and more unrealistic. 

My recording fritzed out in those final moments, but what I could take from the closed captioning (which still worked, mostly) I thought Naomi said something along those lines. Which is true, at least for their small band.

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1 hour ago, lidarose9 said:

At last count, the protomolecule exists (or existed) on Phoebe, Eros, Ganymede, and Venus, so the idea of containment is getting more and more unrealistic. 

Right now, the crew of the Roci is only aware of the experiments on Ganymede. Holden is tracking that down leaving Naomi free to eliminate a source she is responsible for and only she knows about.

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1 hour ago, lidarose9 said:

At last count, the protomolecule exists (or existed) on Phoebe, Eros, Ganymede, and Venus, so the idea of containment is getting more and more unrealistic. 

I agree with Niomi, the proto molecule is out there, distributed by the evil Mao company for experimtation in different locations. The Roci crew doesn’t have the resources to find them all unless they go after the company itself.

But I disagree with Chrisjen. Meeting with Mao and agreeing to his demands is a crime. It also makes her an accomplice to his crimes. Mao says that he is doing 'something' for humanity. But someone who experiments on children and kills over a hundred thousand people on Eros doesn't understand the concept of humanity.  (I know the meeting is more about giving Chrisjen something dramatic to do, but I think it makes her look bad.)

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I've caught up on the last several episodes, and as someone who hasn't read the books, I wonder if the writers are in a bit of bind, presumably because they're being faithful to the books (in spirit, if not in practice).  But since TV is a different medium, as a viewer, I'm missing something in the adaptation.  

I've found myself questioning actions this season in a way I did not last season.  For example, I totally understand why the botanist wants to find his daughter, but I didn't understand what the Roci crew (Holden specifically) thought they're going to achieve by tracking down the man she's with. Is he supposed to just tell them what they want to know? Hand over any protomolecule samples he had access to?  Same thing with the woman who was killed by the...proto-hybrid or whatever in this episode.  It's gotten to the point where I've lost interest in the Roci crew because they seem aimless. I'm glad that Naomi and Amos have split off for now - I liked their friendship, and maybe their path will be interesting. Whatever Naomi's motivation, she's right on one thing - they alone can't stop what's been set in motion with the protomolecule.  

The plot developments on Earth were also interesting, though I find myself wondering what's going on with Fred Johnson and Drummer. Holden is the moral center of this show, and I'm just not that invested in him. I'm hoping that Naomi's secret might be a boon to them later vs "you betrayed me, cue the bland lost puppy dog look by Strait," but we'll see.       

And yeah, I don't understand what Avasarala expects to achieve by meeting with Mao, either, @shrewd.buddha.  Unless she has some kind of ace up her sleeve, I can't see Mao deciding to turn himself in. In truth, I'm surprised he wouldn't have had his family with him anyway, especially after the Eros threat to Earth, but okay.  The overall story is losing cohesion (particularly around the protomolecule conspiracy).  I understand this show gets all the raves for a return to traditional sci-fi, but I also understand why it's not connecting to a broader audience. It's probably not meant to.  

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Because I'm shallow: Amos was in a sleeveless shirt after he got shot; now they need to get him shirtless somehow, because Wes Chatham is hot. 

Edited by SmithW6079
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3 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

And yeah, I don't understand what Avasarala expects to achieve by meeting with Mao, either, @shrewd.buddha.  Unless she has some kind of ace up her sleeve, I can't see Mao deciding to turn himself in. In truth, I'm surprised he wouldn't have had his family with him anyway, especially after the Eros threat to Earth, but okay.  The overall story is losing cohesion (particularly around the protomolecule conspiracy).  I understand this show gets all the raves for a return to traditional sci-fi, but I also understand why it's not connecting to a broader audience. It's probably not meant to.  

I can't imagine she doesn't have a plan.  She wants to get him out of hiding somehow and I am sure that she knows that he can't be trusted.  I''m curious if the timing has to do with her letting Errinwright know he is going to have to take the fall.  And suddenly Mao pops up?

i have to say that this episode was the first time that tv Bobbie seemed like book Bobbie to me.  She wanted Martians to be able to grow up to a green world not be the test subjects for some power mad militarists.  Plus she has a better idea now what water can be.

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9 hours ago, call me ishmael said:

I can't imagine she doesn't have a plan.

She seems like a woman who always has plans - and multiple levels of backup plans.

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18 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

She seems like a woman who always has plans - and multiple levels of backup plans.

But so does Mao. That's why I'm looking forward to this meeting. 

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4 minutes ago, xaxat said:

But so does Mao. That's why I'm looking forward to this meeting. 

He does. I'm looking forward to it too. But I'm betting on her. Partly because I think many men, especially arrogant men like Mao, underestimate women even when they are clearly strong adversaries, and partly because I think he plays regular chess whereas she's playing 3-D chess.

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Well, that asked my question from last episode why the Martians would sacrifice their own people. Lots of cold assh*les running around in the future (not that the present is much better). Looks like the most dangerous thing in the solar system is no longer a Martian nor an Earther Marine.

Bobbie letting her hair down in more than one sense was immensely satisfying to watch. As was her quipping 'You should have been more specific' to Avasarala. She rightly interpreted Avasarala's actions as giving her more time and made the best of it, so to speak. Martens had it coming not just for being a coldhearted bastard willing to sacrifice his own people in a weapon's demo but also for not being able to read a room. He did everything to help Bobbie make up her mind - Avasarala should send him a fruit basket (and toss in a smoothie blender as I'm not sure how good he can handle solid food after that well-deserved beating).

The Ganymede plot turned out to be as horrifying as expected once it became clear that kids were somehow involved in the experiments. But I wish we would get more insight into the mindset of all the evil-doers, starting with all the scientists. And why does Mao still think he can dictate any terms? Isn't he a hunted criminal by now? Which brings me to my next problem: how much information about the protogen is out in the world and who knows what. Yes, Avasarala knows pretty much everything there is to know. But how much does the Security Council know? How much the general public? And what about Mars - does everybody in the Martian government know about Hybrid 1? Or just a select few? And what about the Belt? 

I know it's par for the course for plots involving political intrigues that nobody shares info and everybody is deceiving everybody and that can be entertaining to watch. But at this point I hardly know who knows what or is hiding what and that is frustrating. As is the Roci's crew not finally making sure everything they know gets out in the open. Considering they never know if they're going to survive their next mission they should at least consider a fail-safe to make sure the information they have won't be lost together with them. AFAIK they are the party holding the highest number of info pieces in their hands yet they never play those pieces (for example that Dawes is out there with Dresden's guy who still has a connection to the protogen). It made sense at the beginning of this season to keep things to themselves but at this point it starts to look reckless if not stupid. And that also applies to Naomi still not coming clean about the not-destroyed probe.

Can't wait for next week. Avasarala teaming up with Bobbie should be awesome

Edited by MissLucas
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I knew the moment Amos gave the gun to Prax that Prax would start shooting the first guy who moved.  Typical untrained person with too much emotional attachment.  And of course it would end up preventing the team from getting Intel as to what they were using the protomolecule for.  Obviously we know that they are turning kids into proto-weapons that are being sold to Mars.  Hopefully Holden and Alex don't get too close, or learn how to kill it. 

Hard decision for Bobby, the reject her entire life because the military betrayed her and her team.  

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I can't figure one thing out, did Amos get that procedure done to his frontal lobe?   I didn't read the book.  And they sort of cut that story out a bit?

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17 hours ago, Nukester said:

I can't figure one thing out, did Amos get that procedure done to his frontal lobe?   I didn't read the book.  And they sort of cut that story out a bit?

I'm guessing they are going to give us a reveal one way or the other down the line, but the series seems to be hinting that he went through with it. He's acting a bit more detached than usual, at least.

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On 4/8/2017 at 0:54 PM, Clanstarling said:

From the moment Prax talked about other children having the disorder (or was it the father of one of the children) I suspected the disorders were either created, or entirely falsified.

 

On 4/7/2017 at 0:21 PM, WildPlum said:

Prax's daughter had some sort of immune disorder, as did several other children, which apparently made them experiment fodder. I wonder if they were born with it or it was something the Mad Scientist inflicted on the kids to have the research subjects?

At first blush, it does seem a bit of a stretch to believe that of all the kids in the system who suffer from the same rare, one-in-a-million type genetic disorder, six or eight or more of them just happen to live on Ganymede. But then, consider this: Ganymede, and The Belt in general, are fairly small, isolated populations. This implies a somewhat homogeneous gene pool, which in turn could result in the expression of certain genetic disorders at a higher rate than one might expect the the general population. So just as, say, hemophilia was more common than one might otherwise expect in European royal families in the 19th and 20th Centuries, maybe this immune system problem happens to be more common than usual among children of Ganymede. One could even postulate that maybe this is what led Strickland and his team to target Ganymede for their research.

Not completely out of the realm of possibility, right?  It's just a thought.

 

20 hours ago, Nukester said:

I can't figure one thing out, did Amos get that procedure done to his frontal lobe?

 

3 hours ago, Scaeva said:

I'm guessing they are going to give us a reveal one way or the other down the line, but the series seems to be hinting that he went through with it.

Personally, I don't see the hints that several others seem to be seeing about this. I mean, you two are not alone in thinking this or suspecting it; I've read this theory in a number of places in a number of discussion boards around the Internet. But if the writers gave that impression, I'm pretty certain it was unintentional, and I think I've even seen several interviews with show runners and such in which it was stated in no uncertain terms that no, Amos did not have this procedure done.

Here's what I think I see, for what it's worth: I think Amos' extensive discussion with Cortizar was motivated by a desire to better understand himself. Amos is very aware of his own shortcomings, and yes, he does regard them as shortcomings. So he asks Cortizar to explain how these treatments affected him, because he wonders if his problem could be related in some way.

But Cortizar, who, remember, has no empathy, misreads this as an interest on Amos' part in "letting go" of the things that bothered him about himself. Thing is, Amos never wanted that; in fact, I think it was quite the opposite. Remember that the first thing Amos wanted to know about Cortizar's condition was whether it was reversible. Those, to me, are not the words of someone who wants to be more like Cortizar; rather, they are the words of someone who wants to be less like him.

It is true that, in a subsequent conversation, Cortizar basically tries to sell Amos on the treatment, but, to my mind, the only person in that scene who looked excited and positive was Cortizar. Amos, for his part, looked rather horrified.

In my opinion, of course.

Edited by btp · Reason: to expand and clarify a bit
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29 minutes ago, btp said:

Ganymede, and The Belt in general, are fairly small, isolated populations. This implies a somewhat homogeneous gene pool, which in turn could result in the expression of certain genetic disorders at a higher rate than one might expect the the general population.

Consider also that it's likely Ganymede is one of the most advanced (technologically) places in the belt.  This is where people with rare disorders might congregate looking for treatment unavailable elsewhere in the belt.  And possibly, in less advanced locales, the disorder might never be identified at all, leading to early demise of the affected.

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On 4/5/2017 at 11:41 PM, mjc570 said:

I also have come to like her sidekick? Bodyguard? Gofer?

All of the above?

On 4/7/2017 at 0:56 AM, thuganomics85 said:

I wonder if the Martians wanted everyone to die or if they always attended Bobbie to survive their test, because they needed someone to sell it to the Earthers. 

The doctor and the scientists were using the proto-molecule on children? 

From the way the Creature stopped and looked at Bobbie, instead of going for an insta-kill like with everyone else., I think she was intended to survive.  She was picked because they counted on her blind patriotism and belief in duty (like Marten's belief in her dad's story).

On 4/7/2017 at 10:37 AM, johntfs said:

I now kind of want to see Bobbie, Drummer, Naomi and Chrisjen have some kind of girls' night out.  Let the galaxy beware.

If they come across Dr Linda, Maze and Chloe (Lucifer) on their Girls' Night Out, the universe itself would explode!

On 4/8/2017 at 2:46 PM, WearyTraveler said:

Or once the requirements of the experiment were identified, Mao's company set out to find as many children with the disorder as they could across the entire system, and brought them and their parents to Ganymede under the pretense that they were working on a cure.

Prax came to Ganymede as a young student so that time-line doesn't work.

23 hours ago, Nukester said:

I can't figure one thing out, did Amos get that procedure done to his frontal lobe?   I didn't read the book.  And they sort of cut that story out a bit?

I would say that his concern for Prax shows that he hasn't had it done.

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20 minutes ago, jhlipton said:

Prax came to Ganymede as a young student so that time-line doesn't work.

It's not an all or nothing proposition, though.  Mao could have been recruiting people for an experimental study to treat/cure the disorder (like we currently do with new drug treatments) and Prax's daughter could be one girl who happened to already be living in the same place where the "study" was being conducted.

Another, more sinister alternative, is that Mao and his Martian backers could have intentionally introduced the genetic mutation to pregnant mothers in Ganymede.  After all, we don't know how long they have been working with the protomolecule.

Or, it could just be left unexplained forever.  A small contrivance to serve the plot.  I'd be ok with that.  It's not a very big deal if I ca come up with plausible explanations in my head.

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On 09/04/2017 at 2:47 AM, ribboninthesky1 said:

I've found myself questioning actions this season in a way I did not last season.  For example, I totally understand why the botanist wants to find his daughter, but I didn't understand what the Roci crew (Holden specifically) thought they're going to achieve by tracking down the man she's with. Is he supposed to just tell them what they want to know? Hand over any protomolecule samples he had access to?  Same thing with the woman who was killed by the...proto-hybrid or whatever in this episode.  It's gotten to the point where I've lost interest in the Roci crew because they seem aimless. I'm glad that Naomi and Amos have split off for now - I liked their friendship, and maybe their path will be interesting. Whatever Naomi's motivation, she's right on one thing - they alone can't stop what's been set in motion with the protomolecule.  

As someone who has read the books and loves them, but also loves this show, I do have to admit you have a valid point.

Prax comes into the books in a different way. They meet him on Ganymede, and he asks for help finding his daughter. After Holden breaks with Fred Johnson, they decide they're going to start contracting out to make money, and Prax hires them. Along the way, they discover the connection to Protogen through Mai's doctor. So in the show, they seem to have switched it around a bit for the sake of narrative streamlining. The Roci crew seem driven by the narrative much more here than they did in the books.

 

On 09/04/2017 at 3:55 PM, MissLucas said:

I know it's par for the course for plots involving political intrigues that nobody shares info and everybody is deceiving everybody and that can be entertaining to watch. But at this point I hardly know who knows what or is hiding what and that is frustrating. As is the Roci's crew not finally making sure everything they know gets out in the open. Considering they never know if they're going to survive their next mission they should at least consider a fail-safe to make sure the information they have won't be lost together with them. AFAIK they are the party holding the highest number of info pieces in their hands yet they never play those pieces (for example that Dawes is out there with Dresden's guy who still has a connection to the protogen). It made sense at the beginning of this season to keep things to themselves but at this point it starts to look reckless if not stupid. And that also applies to Naomi still not coming clean about the not-destroyed probe.

I think it's deliberately frustrating. The writers are going for a byzantine plot, filled with scheming on multiple levels. Avasarala is our window into that, and we're seeing her figure things out, only to then learn she's still not got the big picture. The Roci crew just don't seem to be very focused on anything other than Holden's drive to destroy the Protomolecule, and the building rifts within the crew. So I think their dumb decisions are entirely deliberate on the part of the writers. 

Naomi made a dumb decision to keep the sample, and hide it from the others, because she has Belter loyalties. Amos is deliberately antagonising Alex, and becoming more unpredictable because he's caught up in some introspection that can't be any fun. Holden is completely driven by a cause he sees as noble, but the others are starting to see as self-destructive and obsessive. 

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

It's not an all or nothing proposition, though.  Mao could have been recruiting people for an experimental study to treat/cure the disorder (like we currently do with new drug treatments) and Prax's daughter could be one girl who happened to already be living in the same place where the "study" was being conducted.

Another, more sinister alternative, is that Mao and his Martian backers could have intentionally introduced the genetic mutation to pregnant mothers in Ganymede.  After all, we don't know how long they have been working with the protomolecule.

I don't remember what the resolution was in the books, but my assumption is that the scientists took advantage of existing genetic disorders to gain access to the children, on the pretext of helping them. And you know what, I honestly don't know if that's any better than giving them those disorders. Because they aren't looking to cure anything, they just want test subjects.

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43 minutes ago, Danny Franks said:

Prax comes into the books in a different way. They meet him on Ganymede, and he asks for help finding his daughter. After Holden breaks with Fred Johnson, they decide they're going to start contracting out to make money, and Prax hires them. Along the way, they discover the connection to Protogen through Mai's doctor. So in the show, they seem to have switched it around a bit for the sake of narrative streamlining. The Roci crew seem driven by the narrative much more here than they did in the books.

See, that's more coherent than what's been aired on the show to date.  Thanks for sharing. It seems like the vast majority of the discussion I've seen here and elsewhere around this show are from those who have read the books, thus they can mentally fill in such gaps.  I wonder if the showrunners are taking that for granted.     

On 4/8/2017 at 11:38 PM, SmithW6079 said:

Because I'm shallow: Amos was in a sleeveless shirt after he got shot; now they need to get him shirtless somehow, because Wes Chatham is hot. 

Yeah, he is!

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1 hour ago, Danny Franks said:

I think it's deliberately frustrating. The writers are going for a byzantine plot, filled with scheming on multiple levels. Avasarala is our window into that, and we're seeing her figure things out, only to then learn she's still not got the big picture. The Roci crew just don't seem to be very focused on anything other than Holden's drive to destroy the Protomolecule, and the building rifts within the crew. So I think their dumb decisions are entirely deliberate on the part of the writers. 

Well, that's an explanation I can buy though I don't like it very much. When this show was touted as GoT in space I was rolling my eyes and thinking that it was just a marketing ploy. But I've spent several seasons of GoT yelling at my screen 'Stop squabbling you idiots and pay attention; ice zombies are coming!' And now it's almost the same - just replace 'ice zombies' with 'blue goo'. And that makes Holden Jon Snow - given fandom's reaction to both characters it's not that much of a stretch.

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11 hours ago, btp said:

 

At first blush, it does seem a bit of a stretch to believe that of all the kids in the system who suffer from the same rare, one-in-a-million type genetic disorder, six or eight or more of them just happen to live on Ganymede. But then, consider this: Ganymede, and The Belt in general, are fairly small, isolated populations. This implies a somewhat homogeneous gene pool, which in turn could result in the expression of certain genetic disorders at a higher rate than one might expect the the general population. So just as, say, hemophilia was more common than one might otherwise expect in European royal families in the 19th and 20th Centuries, maybe this immune system problem happens to be more common than usual among children of Ganymede. One could even postulate that maybe this is what led Strickland and his team to target Ganymede for their research.

Not completely out of the realm of possibility, right?  It's just a thought.

 

11 hours ago, Netfoot said:

Consider also that it's likely Ganymede is one of the most advanced (technologically) places in the belt.  This is where people with rare disorders might congregate looking for treatment unavailable elsewhere in the belt.  And possibly, in less advanced locales, the disorder might never be identified at all, leading to early demise of the affected.

For what it's worth, in the books (Caliban's War, I think), it is mentioned multiple times that Ganymede is a place that (Belter) women come to have babies, though I've forgotten why--clean air, good food access, and lots of doctors, maybe.  So, it's not a stretch to think that the protomolecule researchers did stake out Ganymede in search of recently born infants with Mei's genetic disorder or any other genetic disorder they could manipulate for their own ends. 

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Yet another thing I like about this show is that is pays attention to the science without getting bogged down in technobabble.Star Trek used to offer us long explanations on reverse tachyon pulses and the like. Wheras on this show Alex navigating around Jupiters Moon’s is a good example of showing rather than telling us about the science.

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On 4/8/2017 at 9:47 PM, ribboninthesky1 said:

For example, I totally understand why the botanist wants to find his daughter, but I didn't understand what the Roci crew (Holden specifically) thought they're going to achieve by tracking down the man she's with. Is he supposed to just tell them what they want to know? Hand over any protomolecule samples he had access to?

Holden doesn't want what happened on Eros to happen on Ganymede.   By making the Cortizar/Strickland connection and realizing that activity on Venus spiked with activity on Ganymede, he feels compelled to do something. He feels that, having survived Eros, they have to try to help Ganymede before things get out of control.  He and the rest of the crew don't know everyone behind Protogen and by tracking down Strickland, he's probably thinking they can shake him down for information.  Holden is the type who needs to DO something, and the protomolecule is his cause, especially since Dawes was able to grab Cortizar when they were trying to get information from him about what's happening on Venus.  Plus they realize that Strickland left with Mei a good deal of time before the fighting on Ganymede, meaning he knew what was going to happen.

Holden has more or less appointed himself the galactic police on this issue.  He doesn't want to sit back and say someone else will take care of it.

I prefer the book introduction to Prax and the Ganymede events - it shows the humanity and decency of the Roci crew, while in the show there is some of that, but it reads more like obsession on Holden's part.

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On 4/11/2017 at 2:37 AM, WearyTraveler said:

It's not an all or nothing proposition, though.  Mao could have been recruiting people for an experimental study to treat/cure the disorder (like we currently do with new drug treatments) and Prax's daughter could be one girl who happened to already be living in the same place where the "study" was being conducted.

With such a small sample size, any outlier has to make you question the hypothesis.  Occam's Razor and all that.

23 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

See, that's more coherent than what's been aired on the show to date.  Thanks for sharing. It seems like the vast majority of the discussion I've seen here and elsewhere around this show are from those who have read the books, thus they can mentally fill in such gaps.  I wonder if the showrunners are taking that for granted.    

Pretty much any book-to-TV or -movie is going to have gaps, just because of narrative differences. 

Doris probably likes the book better.

22 hours ago, ratSenoL said:

 

For what it's worth, in the books (Caliban's War, I think), it is mentioned multiple times that Ganymede is a place that (Belter) women come to have babies, though I've forgotten why--clean air, good food access, and lots of doctors, maybe.

All of the above.

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