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S05.E06: Crossbreed


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29 minutes ago, AllyB said:

No. Tatiana was the only character we'd know there with Oleg and Arkady gone and she was definitely more of a support character than one I think the audience cared much for. I guess the idea is that the Jennings seem increasingly isolated as we are seeing less and less of the staff who support them or the decisions being made that cause the Jennings to be sent on the missions they are sent on. But I really, really miss the Rezidentura and Arkady. (And Gaad and the FBI office to a lesser extent.)

I miss Arkady as well, and am hoping that somehow Oleg teams up with him in Moscow. Tatiania, IIRC, was made the temporary Resident(? I forget the title). I also miss seeing the inner workings of the Residentura.

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What I see as really tying everything together is how burned out and disillusioned everyone is- to varying extents- with their jobs. Philip, Elizabeth, Gabriel, Oleg, and Stan are all some what over it all. And these same people are also on thin ice- again to varying extents- at work. 

I miss Gaad. He had such a great presence. I miss Arkady too. But I don't miss Tatiana. 

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35 minutes ago, Moose Andsquirrel said:

I thought Tatiana was being promoted and transferred somewhere in Africa. 

She lost that when Arkady was deported, was told to stay on until the replacement was sent and brought up to speed.

I miss the Residentura as well.  Odd to get rid of so many characters, or at least fling them to the winds all at once.

Edited by Umbelina
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First off: Wow, I love the discussion here! I may have missed a page but....

Who is Marilyn? Have we met her before?

Also she made me think back to Season 1 or 2. Was Aunt Helen a person like Marilyn? Lower level spy (but American born right?)

So many amazing thoughts on Gabriel and that final scene: wow.  I too think he wants to exit because Philip is in high danger of being reprimanded at least, taken out at worst. Gabriel can't bear overseeing that.

I had a *slightly* different spin on the reasons for bring Paige: I thought P & E brought Paige in part as a last-ditch effort to get Gabriel to stay. When my grandmother died my grandfather's passion and fight went out of him and he got morose and resigned to be "finished with it all" like Gabriel. Those of us who loved him knew giving him a valuable project helped keep him going. A former stonemason craftsman all his relatives suddenly had a cobblestone pathway project or patio fountain to give him a burst of purpose. I thought that E & P were terrified at losing Gabriel (and knew it has something to do with them) and brought Paige in part to give him a shot of renewal of purpose: the successful recruitment/transition of the nearest thing to a granddaughter he had.

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21 minutes ago, JasonCC said:

I had a *slightly* different spin on the reasons for bring Paige: I thought P & E brought Paige in part as a last-ditch effort to get Gabriel to stay. When my grandmother died my grandfather's passion and fight went out of him and he got morose and resigned to be "finished with it all" like Gabriel. Those of us who loved him knew giving him a valuable project helped keep him going. A former stonemason craftsman all his relatives suddenly had a cobblestone pathway project or patio fountain to give him a burst of purpose. I thought that E & P were terrified at losing Gabriel (and knew it has something to do with them) and brought Paige in part to give him a shot of renewal of purpose: the successful recruitment/transition of the nearest thing to a granddaughter he had.

That is a really interesting perspective. I like it. Thanks for providing a different spin!

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On 4/12/2017 at 7:59 AM, mwell345 said:

I'll go stand in the corner all alone it seems, because I found this episode, like this entire season so far, to be...blah.

Maybe the Americans has run its course with me.  I know I'm sick to death of Paige.  I think it's gone downhill ever since they made her a part of the story. 

I'm sick to death of Paige's ponytail. Did kids back then really never, ever, ever change their hairstyle?  I don't think so.  My guess is that it's a tool to make her look younger, but it just looks bad.

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11 minutes ago, MaryPatShelby said:

I'm sick to death of Paige's ponytail. Did kids back then really never, ever, ever change their hairstyle?  I don't think so.  My guess is that it's a tool to make her look younger, but it just looks bad.

It's supposed to be a character choice showing Paige has given up on being fashionable. That's not an 80s look. She doesn't really need to look that much younger.

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 had a *slightly* different spin on the reasons for bring Paige: I thought P & E brought Paige in part as a last-ditch effort to get Gabriel to stay. When my grandmother died my grandfather's passion and fight went out of him and he got morose and resigned to be "finished with it all" like Gabriel. Those of us who loved him knew giving him a valuable project helped keep him going.

But even if Philip would consider sacrificing his daughter to hand onto the guy, why would that be his project? Philip and Elizabeth train recruits.

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Who is Marilyn? Have we met her before?

We've seen her as a lookout before. Probably the woman Gabriel mentioned meeting in a library. American born.

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With all the talk of who might pop up again in the Russia storyline, I'm reminded of a line in the episode that struck me as potentially significant: Gabriel mentioned to Claudia that when they shipped Mischa back home, "They met him at the airport. . . . They're going to give him his old job back." The implication seems to be that Mischa's parentage has led him to be employed in some way by the Center -- just as Philip apparently got his start with the KGB because his own father was a member.

So I'm wondering if that's how they're going to keep Mischa in the story -- as a low-level KGB functionary who might intersect with Oleg, Martha, Arkady, or one of the other Russian characters.

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17 minutes ago, Dev F said:

The implication seems to be that Mischa's parentage has led him to be employed in some way by the Center -- just as Philip apparently got his start with the KGB because his own father was a member.

Actually, Gabriel had earlier said he disappeared from his job at a factory, so I think he meant that job and he doesn't work with the KGB. Which makes sense. No way would they have released him from a mental institution for being a dissident and then give him a job with the KGB.

Edited by sistermagpie
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31 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Actually, Gabriel had earlier said he disappeared from his job at a factory, so I think he meant that job and he doesn't work with the KGB.

Oh, right, I had forgotten about that discussion back in the premiere: "They got him out of the hospital, got him a job at a good factory . . ."

Though the suggestion does seem to be that the Center is pulling strings for him, potentially in opposition to how the military would prefer to handle conscientious objectors. You're right that it probably wouldn't extend to making a rabble-rouser privy to state secrets, but I do think it's part of the "family vs. country" dynamic the series has been exploring this season, just in a subtler way.

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Mischa isn't a conscientious objector. He served in Afghanistan and refused to leave his unit and go home when the KGB offered him the opportunity because Elizabeth had asked for him to be made safe for Philip's sake. When his tour of duty was over, however, he gave out leaflets detailing how badly the war was being run by the state. That's what landed him in a mental institute.

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7 hours ago, AllyB said:

Mischa isn't a conscientious objector. He served in Afghanistan and refused to leave his unit and go home when the KGB offered him the opportunity because Elizabeth had asked for him to be made safe for Philip's sake. When his tour of duty was over, however, he gave out leaflets detailing how badly the war was being run by the state. That's what landed him in a mental institute.

Right, that part I remembered. I was just using the term "conscientious objector" imprecisely.

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I must be in the serious minority here.  I found the episode boring and watched the last third on double speed with closed captioning.  As far as I'm concerned, you could have told me Gabriel said he was leaving, and I wouldn't be out of the loop for anything else.  The second half of this season better be AWESOME because I think we've only had 1 good episode out of 6 (last week's episode).

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I didn't completely get the scene where Gabriel goes to the Lincoln Memorial, and then gazes between it and the Washington Memorial.  Quite possibly our two most honorable presidents, and ones with no taint to Russia.  I thought Gabriel was having a moment of why he was working against this country.  But then he decides to go back to Russia?  So maybe he was having a moment of regret of leaving America?  He seemed very solemn and almost grieving.

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 2:11 AM, jjj said:

That was very wistful for Elizabeth, to see that her one friend had disappeared.  I think tai chi scientist guy has also connected with her in a way that is new.

I don't want to analyze, but .......  Unlike Philip, Elizabeth has never truly connected with any of her marks.  I found it significant that after she discovered he was working to solve world hunger, he could sense a new softness in her during sex.

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:01 AM, Ellaria Sand said:

I'm going to be in the minority here but Young-Hee annoyed me as did Elizabeth's behavior when she was with her. I just didn't buy that relationship.

 

I could not stand Young-Hee.  She was completely annoying and I also didn't buy that relationship.  I didn't think Elizabeth was her "true" self at all.  But I bought the devastation Elizabeth wrought on the husband.

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:39 AM, PinkRibbons said:

I was positive Oleg was about to off himself and I was so relieved that he burned the blackmail evidence instead. Too bad there's no one willing to tell him, "we're backing off on you, forget it" outright, but still. He at least has chosen to take that load off his shoulders.

Speaking of loads on shoulders, I felt the saddest combo of heartbreak and relief at Young Misha arriving back home. No one should have had to go back there after escaping. On the other hand I'm relieved there will not be this particular truth bomb ticking to traumatize the Jennings kids anymore.

I didn't care for Oleg until this season (the sex with the scientist was endless and revolting).  But I really worried he was going to take a dive.  And I was worried Stan would blame himself, and had endangered himself for nothing.  Yes - I am one of the few who likes Stan.  I want more scenes with him and Aderholt.

I couldn't believe Misha went back home.  I really liked the actor.  He has an earnestness that really reminded me of Paige, and even Philip.  So that's probably why so many despised him.

On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 1:18 AM, Umbelina said:

Yeah, it was.  I need to edit that.

Those childhood memories and learning about all the lies have to make Philip wonder even more what in the hell he's doing all this for, and if Elizabeth is really worth it.

Really thoughtful reviews posted in the Media thread, there were more as well, NYT and Rolling Stone also caught a few things I missed.  Most seem pretty clear that Gabe was warning Philip his life may be in danger from the KGB.

I'm not gonna lie - I don't think I would mind if Philip decides Elizabeth isn't worth it.  I totally got that Gabriel was warning Philip his life is in danger - from the very group he's damaged his soul for.  And I'm not so sure even that would make Elizabeth leave.

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On ‎4‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:48 AM, MissBluxom said:

He looks so much like Phillip. Sometimes I wonder if it could possibly be Rhys in a wig.

He definitely looks like a bigger, more buff Philip in a wig.  But then I think Pastor Tim looks like Philip in a wig.  It used to confuse me a little.

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 9:54 PM, Umbelina said:

Well, with Gabe going back to Moscow, maybe we will actually get another Martha scene.  If anyone would look her up and let her know her parents know she's OK, it would be Gabe...

And Martha can say - Hey guys, don't worry about me!  I got this fab new part on a Ryan Murphy show.

But seriously, if Oleg is going to stay in Russia, they need someone else to make it interesting.  I couldn't pick out his partner in a lineup, and I'm sick of his father.  If he's another Nina, just rip the Band-Aid off.

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12 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

And Martha can say - Hey guys, don't worry about me!  I got this fab new part on a Ryan Murphy show.

And she's rockin' the wardrobe. She looked fab in her leopard-print pillbox hat.

On topic, I kind of hope we don't see Martha again. I love her and Alison Wright, but I feel like that little glimpse we got of her was enough, and any interaction she has with Oleg or another character will be too contrived.

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1 hour ago, RedheadZombie said:

I couldn't believe Misha went back home.  I really liked the actor.  He has an earnestness that really reminded me of Paige, and even Philip.  So that's probably why so many despised him.

I don't think anybody ever despised him as person. They didn't like adding a storyline about this character who was connected to Irina, but I honestly don't remember anyone disliking the actual person this kid seemed to be. At least I know that was my impression. I hated that they introduced him as a character but the character himself never annoyed me. Especially in that last scene with Gabriel I thought he was great. (I know some thought he seemed to vulnerable for a soldier, but that never seemed to cross over into him getting on their nerves.)

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2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

(I know some thought he seemed to vulnerable for a soldier, but that never seemed to cross over into him getting on their nerves.)

I was one of those who thought him a bit naive and vulnerable - but I never disliked him, and always wanted to see more of him. I did not like that he returned to the USSR after all he went through to escape. I do hope they follow up on him - since he's been a thread for a few years.

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Misha was a combat veteran and spent time in a psychiatric hospital. Who knows what horrors he'd experienced. Then he has a chance to go to America and find the father he never knew. I think vulnerable and naive are reasonable.

17 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I do hope they follow up on him - since he's been a thread for a few years.

I don't see how they don't follow up on him, especially since they went to all that trouble to show us his trip to the U.S. I really want him to meet all the Jennings. 

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26 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Misha was a combat veteran and spent time in a psychiatric hospital. Who knows what horrors he'd experienced. Then he has a chance to go to America and find the father he never knew. I think vulnerable and naive are reasonable.

I don't see how they don't follow up on him, especially since they went to all that trouble to show us his trip to the U.S. I really want him to meet all the Jennings. 

My initial opinions were based on my own experience growing up in a family of soldiers during the Vietnam War, and having relatives who survived WWII on the "other side" of the conflict (Austrians).  But ya'll did give some compelling examples that I didn't experience or see, but trust that you did. So while I still tend to think of Mischa that way, I don't disagree that he could be vulnerable and naive. And as I said, I liked him (or rather, that I didn't dislike him and wanted to see more of him).

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On April 22, 2017 at 11:43 AM, RedheadZombie said:

He definitely looks like a bigger, more buff Philip in a wig.  But then I think Pastor Tim looks like Philip in a wig.  It used to confuse me a little.

I swear I have thought this same thing about Pastor Tim. I can't fine the original quote, but if the first mention is that Ben also resembles Philip, I have seen it too, even more than the resemblance to Pastor Tim. I've actually wondered if they cast those men for that intentionally because so many small things on this show are done intentionally, which is one reason I love it.

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I think that Mischa's background is hugely misunderstood here. He was a grunt in the Soviet Army in a very dirty war. The Soviet Army was notorious for bullying and brutal discipline and the locals weren't very friendly either. This went beyond hazing or beasting and he's not an ex marine, para or ranger, just some scared Russian kid who was probably slapped around by NCOs and who  learnt fear from inside a BTR as the captured dushka rounds (hopefully)  bounced off. Further he can't speak much English so he's going to come over all awkward. If he'd been speaking fluent Russian in, say, a military striped t shirt and battered leather jacket, he'd be seen very differently. But as it is he's a likeable and bewildered kid. 

I've concluded that S5 is the "traditionally difficult second album" in which the fans don't quite get what they expected - but that in the future and with hindsight it all comes together, hopefully. In short they are moving the pieces about for the final season. There'll be collateral damage but I don't expect any kind of major resolution. 

I think Paige would make a hopeless agent; Henry possibly better but I'll bet that if P&E's cover is broken by character/plot contrivances rather than by actual case work by the FBI, then Henry is part of the process. 

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On ‎12‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 4:07 PM, SunnyBeBe said:

I also wondered about the intimate conversation between P and Gabriel.  If Gabriel cares so much for P, why did he sound so cruel by telling P that his father was nothing.  Nothing?  Really?  Was he trying to say that his dad was not an evil mastermind of a prison or that he just did his job and didn't ask questions?  I don't get it.  He also said they all were nobodies.  I didn't follow that and how that would be comforting news to P.  Why wouldn't the compassionate thing to do would say that he was a prison guard who did he job and care for this family.  He could have even thrown in that he was honorable.  I mean.....I just didn't relate to that approach and why Gabriel went there.

Do you regard as compassionate to lie? Well, maybe it's in some cases, f.ex. if the other is a child and the matter is too hard for him. But Philip came to Gabriel to learn the truth, however hard it was. And Gabriel could lie to him - he had just told Claudia that Mischa is the first time he had lied to P&E.

I think it was admirable from Gabriel that he didn't try to "comfort" Philip nor in any way justify the camp system.

I am afraid that the earlier scene where the frozen shoe included blood points to the direction that Philip's father was had stolen the shoe from a prisoner or even shot him in order to get his shoes. A  guard could get a reward when he shot a prisoner who (according to the guard) tried to escape.    

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5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Do you regard as compassionate to lie? Well, maybe it's in some cases, f.ex. if the other is a child and the matter is too hard for him. But Philip came to Gabriel to learn the truth, however hard it was. And Gabriel could lie to him - he had just told Claudia that Mischa is the first time he had lied to P&E.

 I didn't think Gabriel was being cruel at all. Iirc, he didn't say his father was nothing, he said he was nobody, and then added "we were all nobodies." He was saying his father was just an ordinary guy trying to survive. There was no big answer that would explain why fate turned out the way it did. They were just all people trying to survive that nobody cared about, not great heroes or villains. Philip was looking for some sort of answer in this revelation and Gabriel was saying there was no answer about who his father was. He might have been  nice guy, might have been a sadist. He might have scavenged things from dead prisoners, may have killed prisoners to scavenge for his family. He was just a cog in a big machine, just like Philip and Gabriel himself.

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1 hour ago, sistermagpie said:

 I didn't think Gabriel was being cruel at all. Iirc, he didn't say his father was nothing, he said he was nobody, and then added "we were all nobodies." He was saying his father was just an ordinary guy trying to survive. There was no big answer that would explain why fate turned out the way it did. They were just all people trying to survive that nobody cared about, not great heroes or villains. Philip was looking for some sort of answer in this revelation and Gabriel was saying there was no answer about who his father was. He might have been  nice guy, might have been a sadist. He might have scavenged things from dead prisoners, may have killed prisoners to scavenge for his family. He was just a cog in a big machine, just like Philip and Gabriel himself.

I don't agree with Gabriel with this. Wanting to survive doesn't explain that kind of cruelty that wasn't even ordered but was made on one's own.  

In addition, we know that in Nazi Germany nobody was forced to be a guard, still less to kill the Jews. They chose that rather than serving in the front.

Thinking anew, Philip's background story isn't believable. The family is simply too poor and the boys wouldn't have dared to bully the guard's son.

So, did Gabriel lie? Was Philip's father rather an ex-prisoner or both parents deportees?         

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On ‎12‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 9:11 PM, sistermagpie said:

But she wouldn't have to call attention to herself. It's 1984. Her school textbooks, the newspaper, news magazines, post-WWII history. This stuff isn't hidden. In fact, Orwell was pretty commonly assigned reading in high school. You want to know if everyone's equal? Some are more equal than others, Paige. Surely she's already studied some of this stuff in school. She even mentioned it in s1. Now it seems she's maybe ready to throw all that out and only ask her mother about this stuff. 

 

On ‎12‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 9:49 PM, Umbelina said:

Yeah, it's ridiculous.  There is plenty of information out there, and with Reagan's focus on the evil empire, it was everywhere.  There were tons of books, TV shows, news clips of bread lines.  Any normal teenager or person would educate themselves.  It's a failing of the show that Pastor Tim has to give her that first book on it.

Where Paige is like her mother is in the whole zeal, buy the whole bag, desire to belong to something that gives answers, even if they are pat answers.  For Elizabeth it was the party, for Paige, the church.  They go whole hog, ignoring or pushing aside problematic factors and simply wanting to believe.

Yes, Paige's development isn't believable. Nobody began to admire the Soviet society after reading Das Kapital by Marx. (Actually, I don't believe that Elizabeth had read it either - very few actually had, it's a difficult book.)

In the earlier episodes, opposing the nuclear armament or supporting some third world country against which the US waged the secret war againts, were much better reasons: first you think that the US acts wrongly, and then you find the counterforce in the Soviet Union.

Of course there were enough information about the Soviet society and history,  but that didn't matter so long as you believed that it will someday become an utopia. You compared the US reality with the Soviet future. But I have never heard that this happened so late as in the 80ies. 

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On ‎12‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 8:44 PM, Sighed I said:

When your job is to blend seamlessly into the culture you're spying upon, I don't know how it doesn't rub off on you at least to some degree, at least if you're not Claudia. ;) I've always assumed that the handlers haven't been home in decades either, maybe even most of their lives, so I'd think they would be just as susceptible as their charges to the influences of daily living in the States.

I think you forget that in order to change their worldview, people usually need to discuss freely with others and that's not possible when you are an agent or a handler.  Philby was a Brit but remained a Communist.

 As I said earlier, a Communist didn't compare the US reality with the Soviet reality but with the Soviet utopia. Plus, if you have offered your whole life to serve the cause, it's very hard to admit that you have lived in vain.  

I don't mean that a Communist can't change. But in order to get different answers he must first change the questions.   

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On ‎12‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 10:19 PM, sistermagpie said:

Yes, in this ep again I wondered about Paige's reaction on the religion question. This is somebody who at times seemed presented as being thrilled by God, not just the political activism in Tim's church. Now here she's reading the book that's essentially her mother's Bible and it's saying religion is terrible. Elizabeth asks her what she thinks about it and she just says her baptism was the best feeling of her life. (Not exactly countering the "religion is a drug" idea in Marx, since many would say their first hit of heroin was the best feeling in their life.) But she doesn't address the obvious conflict here. Saying that you felt good at your baptism is kind of vague--felt good why? Because you felt like you were joining a club? Or because it was a spiritual experience with God? If so, that seems relevant here. 

That is, in my experience a Christian would not answer how they felt about this question by saying that they felt good at their baptism, they would say life without God was meaningless or just a lie. It's like she's always helpfully couching her religious experience in terms that parallel Elizabeth's experience. And this is someone who was described as giving herself 100% to the church. Like she's supposed to have thrown herself into it the way Elizabeth does with Soviet ideology, but she never seems less on fire for Christ than when she's talking about the actual spiritual aspect. Which is the subject under discussion there.

And really, even if she's not on fire for Christ, as an American how does she feel about a lack of religious freedom? Like if Elizabeth says this book is the basis for her country's system, it seems natural for Paige to ask what would happen to someone like Pastor Tim the activist Protestant there.

And that was even when her own life as she knew it was on the line and it was her parents she was turning in. Who would trust her to protect a stranger?

 

On ‎12‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 11:53 PM, sistermagpie said:

But then, if Paige grasped the fact that she's in extraordinary danger she wouldn't be calling up her Pastor and blowing their cover and treating him blowing the cover further to his wife as if it was just another example of adults not understanding. She still doesn't actually act like she understands the danger. She'll come close to it for a few minutes, but then it goes away pretty fast.

Even after she got with the program of working the Tims she still seems to sometimes think she's doing it because her parents are trying to arbitrarily mold her into being like them instead of seeing it as purely practical. 

Even when she asks about specifics of what they're doing she doesn't seem to grasp the global implications. In either direction. Like if she believes the story about the wheat, is she angered at her country doing this? I mean, she thought Reagan's support of South Africa was worth writing a letter over. But she doesn't seem to be responding to it with anything beyond "Oh, so I guess what you're doing now is Good." As opposed to when they told her Philip was going to pick up part of a weapon that the USSR needed to defend itself, which one might expect the anti-nukes protester to question (since he didn't specify that he was actually picking up a deadly pathogen).

This is somebody who was supposed to be very politically active up until the moment she found out she was living on the front lines of the Cold War.

Good points. Of course a young person doesn't necessarily make valid questions or even recognize that her beliefs are contradictionary nor act according to her beliefs.

However, I think that the writers haven't done a good job with Paige's development, She, if anybody in the show, seems to be a protagonist whose actions are mainly decided by the plot, not by her character, unlike with P& E

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15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't agree with Gabriel with this. Wanting to survive doesn't explain that kind of cruelty that wasn't even ordered but was made on one's own.  

That's definitely valid--I didn't mean to say that Philip's father had no choices. Where I agreed with what Gabriel was saying was that I thought he was just telling Philip there was no way for Philip to know who the guy was as an individual and that he was wasting his time trying to find some answer in it as if it was meaningful. Philip was even suggesting that he'd been tapped for the Illegals program because of his father, which was really a stretch. 

 

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Thinking anew, Philip's background story isn't believable. The family is simply too poor and the boys wouldn't have dared to bully the guard's son.

 

They really need to flesh some stuff out there, badly. (And please let it not be another Irina story that doesn't add up for me ever.) As you say, if the whole point is that his father was a guard, why are they also defined by being so poor? Is the place where they live much better than everyone else's? Are the odd clothing and bread rations that much of a perk? Even stranger, unless it's just not intentional, is that Philip almost seems to talk as if the family had *less* when his father was alive, when just having a father at all who wasn't in prison should have been a rare advantage. Wouldn't things have gotten worse after his father died? Would there be a reason for Gabriel to lie? 

Not sure about the bullies - his father would have been dead for years by the time they were targeting him so he might not have any protection by then. Though it still always seems like the whole thing's shrouded in mystery again. If they were bullying him because of his father, you'd think they'd insult his (now dead) father when they were beating him up. Does Philip just not remember it? What happened to his father?

Is there any other explanation? If both Philip's parents were deportees he ought to have known that by the time he joined the KGB. His mother would presumably still have been one and they would probably have been surrounded by other people in the same boat, right? Would it be possible for his father to have been a prisoner who acted as a snitch of some kind and so was given some extra perks? Or got released early? (Again, something that would have been his own decision that he was responsible for, but not any big explanation for Philip's own choices.) 

14 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, Paige's development isn't believable. Nobody began to admire the Soviet society after reading Das Kapital by Marx. (Actually, I don't believe that Elizabeth had read it either - very few actually had, it's a difficult book.)

 

I can't figure out where her politics are supposed to be. I assume that the kids in the youth group probably see the USSR as bad, but just don't see the US as always in the right because of that. One reason Paige has to want to see the USSR as better is that she wants to see her parents as heroes, but it would be impossible for a kid her age in that time to be open to the idea that the USSR is much of a role model, imo. Or that they were all that different from the US in terms of all the things she doesn't like. 

Like I said, the show always seemed at its most awkward when it was having to suggest that Paige had a *spiritual* connection to the church rather than saying that she got out of it exactly what Elizabeth got out of her own beliefs (the desire to change the world in practical ways for the better). Which isn't so unbelievable, really, that the social pressure of the church world she liked made her feel pressured to fake the spirituality or convince herself she felt it. Especially since it was the God part that got her attention at home.

Edited by sistermagpie
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On ‎22‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:24 PM, RedheadZombie said:

I didn't completely get the scene where Gabriel goes to the Lincoln Memorial, and then gazes between it and the Washington Memorial.  Quite possibly our two most honorable presidents, and ones with no taint to Russia.  I thought Gabriel was having a moment of why he was working against this country.  But then he decides to go back to Russia?  So maybe he was having a moment of regret of leaving America?  He seemed very solemn and almost grieving.

Didn't Gabriel say before that once they, i.e. the Americans, had Lincoln and now they have Reagan?

The Communist could respect also "bourgeois progressives", especially in the earlier times. So Gabriel might have thought something like that just as America hadn't become what Washington and Lincoln believed it would become, Russia hadn't become the society that Marx, or even Lenin, had believed it would become.

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On ‎13‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 6:03 AM, sistermagpie said:

The Centre says she does have a choice--and I don't think it's a lie. I mean, Paige knows she doesn't have a choice about lying to protect her parents since that's already her reality, but she doesn't have to become a spy for them. Sure the Centre could decide to threaten her parents to make her etc., but I could just as easily believe that they would be smart enough to know they can't force something this delicate. If they're going by reality, the kids were never as far as we know forced into spying. They're hoping to get willing recruits with these kids. You can't get a second generation illegal through blackmail. It's too important a position for life. Part of their job involves identifying people who can't be turned enough.

Of course, they could write a story where Paige is coerced and Philip is coerced into letting her coerced etc. But it's not a set plan that only Paige doesn't know about. Philip and Elizabeth are operating under the understanding that of course Paige would have to agree. As spies themselves the'd surely see that as the only possible way.

 

On ‎13‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 9:19 AM, Sighed I said:

They say she has a choice, but when P/E objected to her being recruited, Claudia told them they were under orders to make it happen, or at least take steps in that direction. With the Connors dead and the loss of one potential recruit, they have even more incentive to get her on board. E/P have told her details about sensitive operations and Gabriel knows it. Would the Center still be okay with Paige saying no and walking away, knowing what she knows? How can they ensure she'll keep her mouth shut, especially after she already confided in Pastor Tim? What if, theoretically, her parents stayed on the job till she turned 18, and Paige comes to the conclusion that she doesn't want to live in Russia and decides to stay in the US. Would they wish her well and let her live her life in peace? Maybe she can say no to joining the KGB, but that doesn't mean the KGB doesn't own her ass either way. I guess that's what I mean by her having no choice.

 

On ‎13‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 9:33 AM, Umbelina said:

Yeah, the idea of "choice" is only there if you consider bad choices to be "choice."  Technically?  Yes.  Realistically?  No.

To the first bold...

I think that's why Gabe's leaving.  Everything he said leads me to believe Philip is in danger from Center.  He doesn't want to be the one to do it, or to order it done.  He's had friends killed before, in the name of country, he's over it.

To the second...

Exactly.  Paige has a choice between what?  Life and death, sure.  She could always kill herself, or run to the FBI for immunity and let her parents be jailed or killed, become a ward of the state, along with Henry, probably not even put into the same house if they even did find foster parents.  Or perhaps living under protection with FBI guards in a safehouse somewhere far from the main group of KGB operatives.

She has NO choice, and hasn't from the moment Center decided they wanted her, and Elizabeth went whole hog to make that happen.  Yes, she had questions, especially after Elizabeth taking her on a little tour of Gregory's neighborhood and giving Paige his name.  Still, Philip and Elizabeth MADE that choice for her, by not defecting the moment the KGB came after their kid, and most certainly by telling her the truth.

They could have told her they were in witness protection.  They could have told her they worked for the NSA or some other US secret service operation and that not even the FBI agent across the street knew that.  They could have stonewalled.

Philip would have protected Paige, but he sacrificed her for Elizabeth, just like he continually sacrifices his soul, feeling like shit all the time.  Pussy whipped doesn't even cover the full extent of Philip's failings as a father and a man.

The moment Elizabeth was all gung ho about her daughter joining her in the glorious cause?  All good choices for Paige went traipsing out the door.

 

On ‎13‎.‎4‎.‎2017 at 5:48 PM, sistermagpie said:

But if they say she has a choice we can't just say it's a given that she has no choice, like this is something we know and she doesn't. The very fact that Paige already spilled the beans to Pastor Tim backs up my point. Paige isn't a kid brought up to fear them, she's an American citizen with all the entitlement that goes with that. Paige can't be controlled by them so easily. They've already given the okay to Paige knowing the secret without being recruited--that's where they are now. Their first step was telling her the truth even while she was a regular American kid. The actual recruitment is supposed to come down the line and if she's "the right kid" it'll work out great for them.

 

But if she has no interest in advancing their agenda, she's not powerless to protect herself and there's good reason to think they'd realize they'd be fools to start trying to coerce her. Being an Illegal requires personal motivation and loyalty. There's every reason to think they'd know it's in their best interest to back off if the kid just isn't interested. They're already risking their whole operation on her whims--whims that already got them an unwanted Pastor and his smarter wife who's got a tape with a lawyer (she says) set to go off if they make the wrong move--and they're watching Paige closely too. Paige also has an FBI agent who gets concerned when things aren't all right in Paige-land.

The KGB does not own Paige's ass as of this moment. Doesn't matter if all her choices are bad for her. What matters is that some of them are majorly bad for the KGB. 

I mean, even now the Centre is allowing the Tims to live because Philip and Elizabeth have warned them that if they kill the Tims, it's far less likely that Paige will be interested in working for them. The actions of everyone on the KGB side follow the idea that Paige needs to choose. (This is also true of their actions with Jared.) I don't think we can just dismiss that because the KGB is ruthless or bad. They are ruthless, but they are far from all-powerful. It's kind of like when Martha was being extracted. Many thought that the KGB had too many reasons to kill Martha to leave her alive, but the actions of all the KGB characters indicated they were extracting her.

Paige may only have bad choices once her parents told her the truth, but she still has choices. They have to woo her and hope she doesn't blow their operation.

I don't think this part's a problem. With her grandmother Paige was getting a lot more dumped on her--trip out of the country, first time seeing Elizabeth in spy mode, a foreign woman with whom Elizabeth has this intense relationship. It was really the first time a lot of it sunk in how much she'd be lying. Gabriel's more like learning about Gregory. He's just an old man who speaks English and knows her parents.

I read elsewhere it's more about the soot on the key. It rubs off where it hits the tumblers and that gives them a way to copy it.

I agree with Sistermagpie. 

I don't think it's even particularly interesting to watch people making a choice between good and bad but between good and good or beween bad and bad.

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My point was there was really no choice for Paige, or rather no "good" choice.  Do it or go to the FBI and turn her parents in.

The KGB made her choices for her, with an assist from Elizabeth.

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(edited)
5 hours ago, Umbelina said:

My point was there was really no choice for Paige, or rather no "good" choice.  Do it or go to the FBI and turn her parents in.

The KGB made her choices for her, with an assist from Elizabeth.

It doesn't matter if choices are bad, they are still choices.

As for Paige, she has the whole time had a chance to go to the FBI and betray her parents. Now she has even more to tell: the location of the KGB safe house and details about her parents operations, including the name Elizabeth uses and that her parents pretend to be a pilot and a stewardess.

Cf. Oleg's mother: in the camp she chose to survive in any means which means either sex services or informing on her comrades. I don't blame her, especially as she had a child, but only remark that some women chose differently.

Addition: I am correct: Oleg and his brother were born after she was released.

Edited by Roseanna
correcting an information that was false
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