The Love Interests: Pale Shadows of Lilith (if that's possible)

[indeed]

I wish they would have built up their relationship more.  Shown Daphne looking at Niles in a different light more than what they did.  Maybe a few more bumps in the beginning since they were so different.  Some clashes with their personalities, habits, interests, perspectives, etc. could've made a few interesting episodes.  Daphne moved into his place and no conflict at all with wanting to maybe make it a little homier for her?  No, they just got married, she moved in, and her mother was their biggest obstacle (after Daphne stopped kicking him out of bed in the middle of her sleep).  They both had a lot of adjusting to do, but the show kind of glossed over it.  I know the pregnancy may have affected some potential storytelling, but there was still ample opportunity before and after that they could've explored in a B- or C-plot.

Oh well.  I liked Daphne and Niles, but I can't say they were really all that convincing as a couple.  Could have been if they weren't trying to keep them apart for so long with Daphne completely oblivious.  We had Niles' perspective for seven years, more from Daphne's side of things would've been nice.  A few moments of looking at him in a different light and then LOVE!

[msani19]

On 5/21/2017 at 11:37 AM, BitterApple said:

I loathed Daphne and Niles as a couple. Daphne turned into a jealous, nagging shrew once they got together and I never found them believable. I understand they were going for the 'opposites attract' deal, but Niles and Daphne had absolutely nothing in common. I don't think they would've lasted in real life once the initial attraction wore off. 

I could not stand Niles & Daphne as a couple and repeat viewing of the show has NOT changed my mind. They have NOTHING in common other than Frasier/Martin. Without that, they would never, ever, ever have encountered each other. I understand that "opposites attract" but I don’t buy it in this case. They didn't even have a kernel of common ground to build a relationship. He went around sniffing her hair and being a freaking creep (and I love Niles!) and she had no interest in him until the writers decided she did. I’ve always believed she knew he was interested in her or liked her some way but she wisely chose to ignore it because he was MARRIED (twice) and she worked for his brother and she thought he was odd. After the initial glow of a new relationship wore off, they would not be together. Although, I don’t see what Daphne ever had an attraction to Niles. Maybe that’s why she was so mean in those later seasons!

The writers were backed into a corner by their own creation and had to put them together. I’d have loved to see them not do it at all but address it in some way so that we could turn the page and get fresh stories. As I’ve understood it, they felt that it would be too depressing to have them never get together or break up.

I was just saying that in a Frasier reunion it would be a newly divorced Fredrick AND Niles both moving in with Frasier!

Not that they'd ever do a reunion, and I'm thrilled!

[Kiddvideo]

I felt Mel was trying to improve Niles for her own aggrandizement. He wasn't the dominant brother. He was on the fringes of high society. He didn't have a celebrity practice. In the ways she measured success he wasn't her equal, which is why his rejection of her (for a household worker, quelle horreur) was especially humiliating.

I liked Sherry best especially for the comedy value of irritating the boys. She also liked the same blue collar things Martin did, and he seemed younger and more energetic with her. I did like Ronnie, though. She was cultured and intelligent enough to live in both Martin's and the boys' worlds. Also, if he'd married Sherry I think his relationship with Frasier and Niles would've wound down eventually. It wouldn't be fractious, but they wouldn't go out of their way to spend time together either.

Add me to the list of people who didn't like Niles and Daphne together. The episode I hate most was when she blamed her weight gain on his adoration. She took her guilt from her unfounded perceptions of his expectations and made everything his fault. He knew she wasn't perfect yet he was able to overlook them and see the woman he'd loved for years. Would she have felt better if he'd called her a pig and threatened to dump her if she didn't get her fat ass into a size 6?

I have insomnia so I, too, spend a lot of time watching Frasier. Obviously.

[Barlowe]

On 2017-05-24 at 7:49 PM, msani19 said:

I could not stand Niles & Daphne as a couple and repeat viewing of the show has NOT changed my mind. They have NOTHING in common other than Frasier/Martin. Without that, they would never, ever, ever have encountered each other. I understand that "opposites attract" but I don’t buy it in this case. They didn't even have a kernel of common ground to build a relationship. He went around sniffing her hair and being a freaking creep (and I love Niles!) and she had no interest in him until the writers decided she did. I’ve always believed she knew he was interested in her or liked her some way but she wisely chose to ignore it because he was MARRIED (twice) and she worked for his brother and she thought he was odd. After the initial glow of a new relationship wore off, they would not be together. Although, I don’t see what Daphne ever had an attraction to Niles. Maybe that’s why she was so mean in those later seasons!

The writers were backed into a corner by their own creation and had to put them together. I’d have loved to see them not do it at all but address it in some way so that we could turn the page and get fresh stories. As I’ve understood it, they felt that it would be too depressing to have them never get together or break up.

I was just saying that in a Frasier reunion it would be a newly divorced Fredrick AND Niles both moving in with Frasier!

Not that they'd ever do a reunion, and I'm thrilled!

 

Daphne was re-written because of the opinion that while Niles could fantasize about quirky Daphne before they got to together after they got together he wouldn't be able to mesh with her so they toned her down and made him more quirky. Someone the second page of this forum made the comment that Niles would need someone more refined which kind of goes with this thinking.

[Corporal Agarn]

Other than Lilith, I felt Frasier was best with Faye. I also liked Leslie the dermatologist. Wish they would have kept her for more than one episode.

Claire was fine, too.

[ketose]

I think the natural progression of Niles and Daphne was impacted by Jane Leeves' pregnancy, but mostly due to the obsession with keeping them apart. Remember, Daphne dated a guy who was a Niles clone.

Now that I've completely mis-remembered the show, I'll venture another bad recollection. I thought in the finale it was mentioned that Frasier could be based anywhere and still have a national radio show.

[ByTor]

On 5/24/2017 at 7:49 PM, msani19 said:

He went around sniffing her hair and being a freaking creep (and I love Niles!) and she had no interest in him until the writers decided she did.

It gave me the creeps every time he talked about what her hair smelled like.  I am a giant sucker for body lotion and perfume, but if some guy went around sniffing me I'd be like yeah, ummm, no, weirdo!  And I'm not sure if I'm the only one, but I wanted to hurl every time he called her a "goddess."  WAYYYY over the top!

On 6/3/2017 at 3:12 PM, Kiddvideo said:

I liked Sherry best especially for the comedy value of irritating the boys. She also liked the same blue collar things Martin did, and he seemed younger and more energetic with her

I didn't like Sherry at all, she's certainly not someone I'd like in real life either, but as a love interest for Martin, she was perfect.  Who else shares an enjoyment of Chimps on Ice? :)

On 6/3/2017 at 3:12 PM, Kiddvideo said:

. In the ways she measured success he wasn't her equal, which is why his rejection of her (for a household worker, quelle horreur) was especially humiliating.

I always felt like it was unfair that Daphne, a licensed Physical Therapist, was stuck cooking, cleaning, and doing the laundry.  But I guess she was perfectly happy to do that in exchange for living there rent free.

[Annber03]

I liked Sherry both as a character and as Martin's girlfriend :). She reminds me a bit of some relatives of mine :D. 

And she and Martin had good chemistry together. 

[Peace 47]

I’m with those who liked Faye best for Frasier.  Amy Brenneman has a likeable screen presence, and they wrote her some good lines.  Her onscreen energy was different from Kelsey Grammer’s, but I thought that it was nicely complementary.

I actually really hated the conclusion of Frasier’s arc, not just because his relationship with Charlotte was rushed (and there was zero chemistry with Laura Linney) but also because that I didn’t think that his moving away from his family in search of another love (or even another career) was the right ending for his character.  The show was about how he rebuilt a relatively happy life in Seattle by reconnecting with his family (after things probably couldn’t have been worse, with Martin especially), and built a career as a notable member of Seattle society.  And he walks away cold from all of that.  I know that he did have an ongoing search for love in the show, but I don’t think that the moral should have been to abandon everything else good in his life to chase that, and if the show ever drove home any points, it was that you need to be present to maintain strong relationships with friends and family (e.g., closing of Duke’s, how Frasier couldn’t connect with Woody anymore, etc.)

I just rewatched the episode where Niles takes Daphne to the Snow Ball, and if I were going to buy them as a plausible couple, I think that was the episode where they should have started to get together instead of waiting.  I hated the way Daphne treated Donny and Niles treated Mel in the initial getting together so much that it just soured me on Niles/Daphne as endgame.  And then they turned Donny and Mel into one-dimensional villains to make sure that we were on the side of Daphne/Niles.

Edited December 4, 2017 by Peace 47

[ByTor]

42 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

I hated the way Daphne treated Donny and Niles treated Mel

Mel wasn't a bad person, so I really hated what the show turned her into in order to create drama for Niles.

[Peace 47]

Just now, ByTor said:

Mel wasn't a bad person, so I really hated what the show turned her into in order to create drama for Niles.

Yeah, I had just edited my post when you posted, but it was such lazy writing to make her so vindictive after the fact.

[ByTor]

Just now, Peace 47 said:

Yeah, I had just edited my post when you posted, but it was such lazy writing to make her so vindictive after the fact.

Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone could blame her for being angry & embarrassed, but she was taken way too over the top.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, ByTor said:

Yeah, I mean, I don't think anyone could blame her for being angry & embarrassed, but she was taken way too over the top.

All so Niles and Daphne could come off looking good in the process. Instead of having one dump his wife and the other dump the man she was marrying that day. I hate that they did it. Mel had an absolute right to be ticked off. Who would take that well? But no let's make her horrible so no one will care she was a wife dumped after three days of marriage. Same with Donny from suing Daphne to his reaction at the courthouse when Niles and Daphne were getting married again. Nice that they turned him into a jerk. So no one stops to think how painful it would be to have your fiancée dump you on your wedding day for another man. 

[msani19]

3 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I hated the way Daphne treated Donny and Niles treated Mel in the initial getting together so much that it just soured me on Niles/Daphne as endgame.  And then they turned Donny and Mel into one-dimensional villains to make sure that we were on the side of Daphne/Niles.

I agree so much with this. The worse they made Donny and Mel, but particularly Mel (I hate the shrewish, scorned woman trope), the less I wanted for Daphne and Niles to be together. Well, I was never a fan of them in the first place, but that story arc really soured me on them long-term. I expected better from the writers than to try to push the "You guys, Mel and Donny are the worst! Of course, Daphne and Niles belong together". Sorry, no. That's not how it works. Two perfectly nice people were deeply hurt by their actions, and they wanted to act like they were being unreasonable and wanted it to just go away. I thought they had more integrity and sympathy than the type of people who could be so callous, well at least Daphne seemed like a decent human being. 

Their relationship just never "felt" right to me. But I could never buy into them anyway (I have typed many, many words of this topic and feel like I can continue to discuss it!) I feel like the writers were damned if they did and damned if they didn't, so they went with what they thought would make more fans happy. Sadly, t

heir execution was awful. Once we get past that first year or so of them together, I can mostly tolerate watching them.  

58 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

But no let's make her horrible so no one will care she was a wife dumped after three days of marriage. Same with Donny from suing Daphne to his reaction at the courthouse when Niles and Daphne were getting married again. Nice that they turned him into a jerk. So no one stops to think how painful it would be to have your fiancée dump you on your wedding day for another man. 

Yup. Appalling writing. 

[andromeda331]

36 minutes ago, msani19 said:

I agree so much with this. The worse they made Donny and Mel, but particularly Mel (I hate the shrewish, scorned woman trope), the less I wanted for Daphne and Niles to be together. Well, I was never a fan of them in the first place, but that story arc really soured me on them long-term. I expected better from the writers than to try to push the "You guys, Mel and Donny are the worst! Of course, Daphne and Niles belong together". Sorry, no. That's not how it works. Two perfectly nice people were deeply hurt by their actions, and they wanted to act like they were being unreasonable and wanted it to just go away. I thought they had more integrity and sympathy than the type of people who could be so callous, well at least Daphne seemed like a decent human being. 

Their relationship just never "felt" right to me. But I could never buy into them anyway (I have typed many, many words of this topic and feel like I can continue to discuss it!) I feel like the writers were damned if they did and damned if they didn't, so they went with what they thought would make more fans happy. Sadly, t

heir execution was awful. Once we get past that first year or so of them together, I can mostly tolerate watching them.  

Yup. Appalling writing. 

I wasn't a fan of Niles and Daphne either. I hated how Niles acted around her. He was really creepy at times. I really don't think he ever saw Daphne has a person with feelings and opinions. I hated how they got them together by dumping his wife and her fiancé. Even after all that I can't see how they work together as a couple. They have nothing in common. Niles doesn't ever seem like he's interest in doing anything Daphne wants to do or likes, same with Daphne towards Niles. Daphne doesn't seem like she'd love to live at Niles's apartment, go to operas and symphonies or dinner parties. 

[Peace 47]

40 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Even after all that I can't see how they work together as a couple. They have nothing in common. Niles doesn't ever seem like he's interest in doing anything Daphne wants to do or likes, same with Daphne towards Niles.

I both agree with you and could also play devil’s advocate that I could theoretically see them being happy together, at least based on their personalities in the first years of the show (which are the seasons I’ve been rewatching on Netflix and really enjoying, hence my posting about this show for the first time today).

Daphne liked sophisticated, artsy things, too, even if she came from humble beginnings.  She had mad dancing skillz suitable for ballrooms (very cute when she was teaching Niles), and enjoyed fancy meals (like when they went to eat at Niles and Frasier’s restaurant).  I also found it endearing that she could serve as Niles’s “cultural translator” in that episode where she was explaining to him what type of symphony or opera seats were analogous to courtside basketball seats.  So I think that she could move in Niles’ world well enough that they could find things to do together that they would both like.  And Hester and Martin were relatively different but had an okay marriage (with caveats).

But Daphne was so clueless on any feelings that Niles was projecting that I found it hard to believe that after so many years of viewing him as just a friend, that she would suddenly become attracted to him in a light switch moment solely because she knew that he was to her.  They had almost no sexual tension at all in the buildup to their relationship—it was just so one-sided on Niles’ part—without those charged moments you’ll see TV couples have that make you root for them:  lingering glances, mutual flirting, etc.

Here’s a weird one:  sometimes I could have seen Niles and Roz together, except that they wrote so many deeply offensive (especially in this current environment) jibes by Niles and Frasier towards Roz’s sexual history that I would never have wanted Niles and Roz together under those circumstances on the show.  But the actors had a really good chemistry, and when the characters were getting along, they were cute and funny together, like when Niles filled in for Frasier at work a couple of times. 

[msani19]

3 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

But Daphne was so clueless on any feelings that Niles was projecting that I found it hard to believe that after so many years of viewing him as just a friend, that she would suddenly become attracted to him in a light switch moment solely because she knew that he was to her.  They had almost no sexual tension at all in the buildup to their relationship—it was just so one-sided on Niles’ part—without those charged moments you’ll see TV couples have that make you root for them:  lingering glances, mutual flirting, etc.

 

I've gone back and forth on whether Daphne knew about how Niles felt or not. I think she did on some level, but as her boss' brother and son she was in an uncomfortable position to completely reject him -- like I think she would have otherwise -- and the way Roz would have absolutely shut Niles down. In light of the conversations we are having today about employment and power dynamics, I'm viewing the way Niles treated Daphne even less favorably than I already did. I'm not sure if I sensed some element of that when I hated how Niles interacted with Daphne from my initial viewing (which is from close to the initial rum of the show). Even if Niles wasn't her direct employer, how would Fraiser have handled a situation in which Daphne definitively shut Niles down and he reacted badly to it? Would he have picked "sides"? How would that have played out? That's a really hard dynamic for a 30-minute sit-com to address. One of the show writers Ken Levine has a blog and he does answer questions about Cheers, Fraiser and other shows he wrote for. I sent him a LENGTHY email about my issues with Niles and Daphne and I'd love to see if he ever discusses it and what the writers thought about the characters at the time. Anyway, back to my point, I do think Daphne knew Niles had some interest in her beyond friendship but she ignored it for the sake of her job and the actual friendship she wanted to have with Niles. He's lovely when he's not being creepy...oh wow, again in light of the conversations today, how many people are looking at men they have known and thinking "but he seems like such a good guy"...this is getting too heavy for my beloved Fraiser! What could she do other than ignore him, also factoring in that he was married for the first several years they knew each other

I do think Niles was "in love AT" Daphne and not her whole self. Yes, he knew things about her but I feel like he used those things to manipulate her feelings. I remember when he brought over some clotted cream and pretended he didn't know she loved clotted cream. It's supposed to be seen as romantic but I see it as creepy and manipulative. 

As for Niles and Roz, I do think that had remarkable chemistry, far more than Niles and Daphne ever did. Roz would have been a good partner for Niles. I think it was a missed opportunity for the show to not capitalize on that actual chemistry and a true "opposites" relationship to see how each one could bring out the best in the other. I know it could never happen given that fans were clamoring for NILES AND DAPHNE. 

Maybe if they ever did a Fraiser reunion (please god no!), Roz and Niles are the married ones :-)

 

(I feel like my thoughts are getting all jumbled together, so I'll stop here and add my many thoughts later!)

[andromeda331]

36 minutes ago, msani19 said:

I've gone back and forth on whether Daphne knew about how Niles felt or not. I think she did on some level, but as her boss' brother and son she was in an uncomfortable position to completely reject him -- like I think she would have otherwise -- and the way Roz would have absolutely shut Niles down. In light of the conversations we are having today about employment and power dynamics, I'm viewing the way Niles treated Daphne even less favorably than I already did. I'm not sure if I sensed some element of that when I hated how Niles interacted with Daphne from my initial viewing (which is from close to the initial rum of the show). Even if Niles wasn't her direct employer, how would Fraiser have handled a situation in which Daphne definitively shut Niles down and he reacted badly to it? Would he have picked "sides"? How would that have played out? That's a really hard dynamic for a 30-minute sit-com to address. One of the show writers Ken Levine has a blog and he does answer questions about Cheers, Fraiser and other shows he wrote for. I sent him a LENGTHY email about my issues with Niles and Daphne and I'd love to see if he ever discusses it and what the writers thought about the characters at the time. Anyway, back to my point, I do think Daphne knew Niles had some interest in her beyond friendship but she ignored it for the sake of her job and the actual friendship she wanted to have with Niles. He's lovely when he's not being creepy...oh wow, again in light of the conversations today, how many people are looking at men they have known and thinking "but he seems like such a good guy"...this is getting too heavy for my beloved Fraiser! What could she do other than ignore him, also factoring in that he was married for the first several years they knew each other

I do think Niles was "in love AT" Daphne and not her whole self. Yes, he knew things about her but I feel like he used those things to manipulate her feelings. I remember when he brought over some clotted cream and pretended he didn't know she loved clotted cream. It's supposed to be seen as romantic but I see it as creepy and manipulative. 

As for Niles and Roz, I do think that had remarkable chemistry, far more than Niles and Daphne ever did. Roz would have been a good partner for Niles. I think it was a missed opportunity for the show to not capitalize on that actual chemistry and a true "opposites" relationship to see how each one could bring out the best in the other. I know it could never happen given that fans were clamoring for NILES AND DAPHNE. 

Maybe if they ever did a Fraiser reunion (please god no!), Roz and Niles are the married ones :-)

 

(I feel like my thoughts are getting all jumbled together, so I'll stop here and add my many thoughts later!)

I agree. Niles was "in love AT" Daphne. I didn't like when he showed up when he knew Frasier set up Daphne with his boss (not knowing he was gay). Or when she was a sobbing mess over Joe dumping her and he kept trying to hold her. Niles didn't care that Daphne was upset and hurt, he just wanted to hold her for himself. That's not how you act when towards a person you really love when their upset. There's so many scenes where Niles is acting creeping. Having her trying on Maris's clothes? Her necklace? He corrected what he did to Daphne when she was having doubts about marrying Donny. But I still think he should have gotten a lot more for that. Your right everything he does or learns about Daphne he uses to manipulate for himself. He doesn't take in account how Daphne's feelings. When Daphne's telling him her vision all he thinks is he doesn't have a red bow tie and that this is his chance to get her. When Daphne is dumped by Joe, he doesn't care that she's hurt and upset, he thinks this is his chance to tell her loves her. 

[ByTor]

On 12/4/2017 at 10:07 PM, andromeda331 said:

Joe dumping her

Even before Joe dumped her, he lied that Joe was a man-ho with his female clients so Daphne wouldn't go out with him.  If it weren't for Frasier making him tell the truth, he never would have opened his mouth.

On 12/4/2017 at 10:07 PM, andromeda331 said:

I didn't like when he showed up when he knew Frasier set up Daphne with his boss

He also showed up on The Two Mrs. Cranes when Clive came for his visit.  I guess Daphne really was clueless over Niles' behavior, though, otherwise I don't think she would have faked that they were married.  "You forgot to pay the love toll" blech.

Edited December 13, 2017 by ByTor

[andromeda331]

5 minutes ago, ByTor said:

Even before Joe dumped her, he lied that Joe was a man-ho with his female clients so Daphne wouldn't go out with him.  If it weren't for Frasier making him tell the truth, he never would have opened his mouth.

He also showed up on The Two Mrs. Cranes when Clive came for his visit.  I guess Daphne really was clueless over Niles' behavior, though, otherwise I don't think she would have faked that they were married.  "You forgot to pay the love toll" blech.

That's right he did! I forgot about that. How nice of Niles he loved her so much he was happy to destroy or keep Daphne from dating any man. I really hate that no one ever really called him out on that. That's a crappy way to retreat someone you supposedly love (another reason why I don't believe he ever really loved Daphne). Why should Daphne be all alone?

[Ailianna]

If I think about it, I think that only David Hyde Pierce's native charm keeps Niles from being completely irredeemable in these moments.  He conveys so much emotion and longing and somehow even an innocence while engaging in some very creepy and controlling behavior, and yet Niles is still a rootable character (in his non-Daphne moments).  I really tribute this to DHP.

[msani19]

On 12/13/2017 at 8:18 PM, Ailianna said:

If I think about it, I think that only David Hyde Pierce's native charm keeps Niles from being completely irredeemable in these moments.  He conveys so much emotion and longing and somehow even an innocence while engaging in some very creepy and controlling behavior, and yet Niles is still a rootable character (in his non-Daphne moments).  I really tribute this to DHP.

Completely agree with this. In the hands of a less capable actor, Niles would have been contemptible and not such a well-liked character. I find Niles to be beyond creepy in regards to Daphne.  

[Altair Aquila]

I think the narrative tended to give Niles his just desserts in those situations. He tried to put her off Joe, she ended up becoming Joe's girlfriend. He tried to keep her from getting closer with Donny, she left with Donny to spend the night with him. He tried to hint that Donny wasn't the man for her, he ended up watching Daphne accept Donny's proposal. Etc.

It's unfortunate that they wrote Niles doing these things in the first place, of course. 

In hindsight, I think they should have had Niles follow through and declare his feelings in First Date. I wouldn't have minded if Daphne had then taken another season or so to reach the same point. I did like Something Borrowed, Someone Blue, in fact I enjoyed S7 as a whole, but the fallout in S8 was unfortunate and I think the writers could have done better by Niles and Daphne.

I wish that they had given them a big wedding episode without any elopement. Something along the lines of what they did for Martin and Ronee but, after a series of Frasier-style hiccups, Niles and Daphne exchange vows in front of family and friends. I think I read that Kelsey Grammer regretted that they didn't do that.

I also would have had much less of Daphne's family and done more episodes like Daphne Does Dinner, basically showing both of them trying to fit into the other's world, things going a bit pear-shaped but it doesn't matter because they love each other. I liked the episode where Daphne was teaching the brothers how to ride a bike. More of all that sort of thing and less Moon family drama would have worked much better for me.

Edited December 16, 2017 by Altair Aquila

[Ailianna]

Zero Moon family anything would have been ok with me. I dislike everything about all of them in all of their appearances, and the ONLY time I thought it was good was when her mom forced Daphne into a moment where she had to declare herself regarding Niles, just as he had had to do to Mel previously.

[Altair Aquila]

Yes, Daphne's family made me cringe. Probably because I'm from a part of England not too far from where they were supposed to be from. 

[SmithW6079]

On 12/4/2017 at 9:06 AM, Peace 47 said:

I actually really hated the conclusion of Frasier’s arc, not just because his relationship with Charlotte was rushed (and there was zero chemistry with Laura Linney) but also because that I didn’t think that his moving away from his family in search of another love (or even another career) was the right ending for his character.  The show was about how he rebuilt a relatively happy life in Seattle by reconnecting with his family (after things probably couldn’t have been worse, with Martin especially), and built a career as a notable member of Seattle society.  And he walks away cold from all of that.  I know that he did have an ongoing search for love in the show, but I don’t think that the moral should have been to abandon everything else good in his life to chase that, and if the show ever drove home any points, it was that you need to be present to maintain strong relationships with friends and family (e.g., closing of Duke’s, how Frasier couldn’t connect with Woody anymore, etc.)

I hated the conclusion of Frasier's story too, for exactly the reasons you mention. A better resolution would have been that Frasier realizes that the love of his family and friends is enough, that, maybe, there isn't someone for everyone, but that's OK.

[ruby24]

Frasier belongs with Lilith. Period. The end.

Seriously, I wish the show would have figured out some sort of ending that had him maybe moving back to Boston and leaving it obvious that they would come back to each other again. There was no one else who fit with him, they were so funny together and had such great chemistry all through Cheers and Frasier.

And the show pretty much knew it, because the last episode about them had all these meant-to-be undertones with that lady setting them up and showing they'd matured enough to  always love each other. Ex-spouses aren't usually that close, they just wanted to give them a "we love each other but but we're not together" kind of resolution.

She was the only one for him. (And I promise you if Bebe Neuwirth hadn't wanted out of her contract in the last season of Cheers, they never would have split them up at all on that show).

[Meushell]

For Frasier, I don’t have a favorite. I liked a lot of them. It was often the way he acted that I didn’t like. Charlotte was one of my least favorites though. She treated her boyfriend like crap, getting mad at him for no real reason. He walks in on her and Frasier, completely trusts them, and she’s snapping at him for being there. WTF? That should have been Frasier’s cue to leave.

For Martin, I like Ronee. She was Sherry-lite, and I mean that in a good way. Sherry was too much with everyone else. She was too intrusive with Daphne (trying to hook her up to get rid of her, telling her she needs to eat more). Ronee was similar without being over-the-top about it. I also liked Coral. It was such a tease that they brought her back, but didn’t go anywhere with her.

I like Niles and Daphne, but I also liked them with Mel and Donny. 

Roz and Donny could have been good in the end. They dated each other first, and they broke up because she didn’t want kids. I don’t like that Donny was left just pining over Daphne. As for Roz, she seemed to go back and forth between wanting to settle down and wanting to keep playing the field. I also liked Roz and Roger, the garbage man. I think that was his name. Their breakup was kind of random. No sparks? After all that time dating, and he suddenly tells her that? Ouch. 

[ketose]

The whole thing with Mel was handled badly. She went from simply rubbing everyone the wrong way to torturing Niles and alienating everyone else.

[Gothish520]

1 hour ago, ketose said:

The whole thing with Mel was handled badly. She went from simply rubbing everyone the wrong way to torturing Niles and alienating everyone else.

I liked Mel, she was a good fit for Niles. I always felt she was a softer and less high-maintenance Maris. She had every right to be crushed by what happened, but then they turned her into it revenge-seeking shrew.

I loved Niles and Daphne together, I love the way they made that happen even, but they did Mel wrong.

[Egg McMuffin]

Count me among those who thought Lilith was the best match for Frasier. I hated what they did to their relationship at the end of Cheers. But at that point, Kelsey Grammer’s new proposed show wasn’t going to be a spinoff for Frasier. The Cheers writers broke up Frasier and Lilith because Bebe Neuwirth was no longer interested in being a series regular and wanted to go back to the stage. She did agree to do I believe six episodes in that final season. Why they couldn’t have Lilith show up occasionally at the bar - as she did in her early seasons - rather than do the whole break up story is beyond me. My guess is that the writers were running out of story ideas. Lilith and Frasier reunited late in the final Cheers season so they could have a happy ending (again, Paramount and NBC hadn’t yet decided that Kelsey’s new show would be a spinoff).

When they finally decided on a Frasier spinoff, Kelsey didn’t want Frasier to be wed to Lilith because he felt they had already done that relationship on Cheers. I doubt that Bebe would have agreed to be a regular in the spinoff, but she wasn’t asked. Too bad, because I would have loved to have seen a Frasier and Lilith show.

[Annber03]

I always liked Frasier and Lilith's interaction in her last appearance on "Frasier", I thought that left them in a really nice place with each other. I'm hoping they've still got that kind of connection in this reboot. One thing I always did appreciate about Frasier and Lilith's interaction on "Frasier" was that for all their disagreements and fights, Frasier always made a point to acknowledge how much he respected Lilith both as a psychiatrist and as a mom. I like that they were always on the same page about how to raise Frederick.