The Love Interests: Pale Shadows of Lilith (if that's possible)

[Wordsworth]

Watching Frasier bungle yet another relationship last night got me to thinking.  I pointed out to Mr. Wordsworth that Frasier's relationships end because.

 

A) He isn't being himself (pretending to like something he doesn't, for example)

B) He is being himself  ( when he over-analyzes or obsesses over something stupid)

C) Some other character randomly ruins it for him (ala the three dates Sherry ruined in "Three Dates and a Breakup").  

 

 

 

 

[SmithW6079]

Lilith and Frasier should have been end-game in Sitcomlandia. I loved them as a couple fron "Cheers" days. In real life, they wouldn't end up together. None of Frasier's many other girlfriends made any impression on me.

I never really understood the ending -- he moved to a new city for a new job, but it wasn't the city where his new girlfriend lived?

Count me in the Niles and Daphne camp. I liked them together.

[ketose]

I thought he went to the city where his matchmaker girlfriend (Charlotte?) went.

[Snarklepuss]

Watching Frasier bungle yet another relationship last night got me to thinking.  I pointed out to Mr. Wordsworth that Frasier's relationships end because.

 

A) He isn't being himself (pretending to like something he doesn't, for example)

B) He is being himself  ( when he over-analyzes or obsesses over something stupid)

C) Some other character randomly ruins it for him (ala the three dates Sherry ruined in "Three Dates and a Breakup").  

 

I've been watching the series over again every day for a couple of months now (I'm currently at the beginning of the 7th season) and the other day it occurred to me that Niles is often one of those "other characters" that ruins things for Frasier, such as by bringing up so-called potential "hidden motivations" of his or whatever that get Frasier to engage in (b) - over-analyzing or obsessing to the point that he totally sabotages the relationship (and himself) yet again.

[Wordsworth]

You're right.  In fact, Frasier and Niles should really not give each other advice at all...or least, stay out of each other's love lives.

 

No wonder Martin is always angry at them.

 

We've reached the Niles/Daphne relationship in our Netflixing.  I'd missed much of the episodes when they'd aired, so never really got to see the Niles/Mel relationship begin.  I picked up right before the wedding episode.  By then, she was just some random girlfriend that Niles married on a whim.  I didn't like her and totally believed the shrewish behavior she threw at him later.

 

But seeing some of the episodes for the first time, in order, I now see that Mel really wasn't that bad.  She was manipulative, yes, but it didn't seem to be for her sake. Even Daphne realized that Mel wanted what was best for Niles.  Her petty demands after the wedding were certaintly over-the-top, but I understood completely how betrayed and hurt she felt.  It was as if they'd needed to make her look really bad so that we wouldn't think too harshly of Niles & Daphne.

 

I admit I'm less sympathetic toward them now than I was then.

 

 

 

[Catman]

Of all his girlfriends/dates did you like the best?

Dr Lilith Sternin (Bebe Neuwirth), Rebecca Howe (Kirstie Alley), Candi (Jennifer Tilly), Catherine (Amanda Donahue), Lilith Sternin (Bebe Neuwirth),  Diane Chambers (Shelley Long),  Model Kristina Harper (Claire Stansfield), Tawny Van Deusen (Trish Ramish), Madeline Marshell (Jo Beth Williams),  Dr Honey Snow (Shannon Tweed),  Sheila (Tea Leoni),  Bebe Glazer (Harriet Sansom Harris), Kate Costas (Mercedes Ruehl), Maureen Cutler (Jane Kaczmarek), Laura Parris (Beth Armstrong), Stephanie Garrett (Patricia Wettig), Kimberly Egan (Rebeccah Bush), Adair Peck (Donna Bullock), Leslie Wellman (Maria Del Mar), Kelly Easterbrook (Sela Ward), Samantha Pierce (Lindsay Frost), Annie (Cynthia LaMontagne), Sharon (Lindsay Price), Caitlin (Lisa Edelstein), Vicky (Claire Yarlett), Tricia (Lisa Waltz), Rebecca Wendell (Laura Harring), Marie (Teri Hatcher), Faye Moskowitz (Amy Brenneman), Cassandra Stone (Virginia Madsen), Mia (Rita Wilson),Regan (Gigi Rice), Lorna / Lana Lynley (Jean Smart), Miranda (Tushka Bergen), Abby Michaels (Teri Polo), Chelsea (Katherine Disque), Monica (Charlotte Ross), Mrs Daley (Illeana Douglas),  Claire (Patricia Clarkson), Lisa (Bellamy Young), Susanna (Allison Janney), Kris (Bridgette Wilson-Sampras),  Roz Doyle, (Peri Gilpin), Chelsea Gray (Jeanne Tripplehorn), Julia Wilcox (Felicity Huffman),  Ann Hodges (Julia Sweeney),  Nannette "Nanny Gee" Gooseman  (Laurie Metcalf), Willa Haver (Gabrielle Miller), Charlotte (Laura Linney).

[indeed]

Claire

Kate (until she became a weird cat lady)

Julia (for their spectacular breakup:  "Get out!"  LOL)

Of course, I enjoyed most of Lilith's visits (I and Frasier could've done without her sleeping with Niles).

[andromeda331]

Lilith was my favorite, with Kate a close second.

[Altair Aquila]

Claire was my favourite. I also really liked Faye. And it was a pity that Mia was the double of his mother because she was very nice, too. 

I still love the hearts in eyes moment Frasier has when he hears of Claire's work and interests. I could kick him for still thinking about Lana, though. It was a bit like when he was caught between Cassandra and Faye, although I liked Cassandra more than Lana.

Lilith was a fantastic character but to me she wasn't the right fit for Frasier. Hee, I remember Martin's comment of how Maris was a little strange but Lilith was weird, prompting Niles to joke that he had no idea Martin preferred his wife to Frasier's. And you can just see Martin thinking yeah, what daughters-in-law you two gave me there...  :D

I, too, could have done without the Niles/Lilith thing, and also Frasier/Roz. I don't think they ever needed to go there.

Edited February 13, 2017 by Altair Aquila

[Ailianna]

But if Niles and Lilith never slept together, we wouldn't have gotten that great room service guy!  "OK."

I actually really love that episode, because it's hilarious and I also think it was (a) about a lot of things, but not really about sex, just as they discussed, and (b) much better than Frasier sleeping with Lilith.  

[Altair Aquila]

Frasier should be thankful that Sam Malone existed. Diane Chambers. Talk about a narrow escape.

One of Martin's girlfriends I really didn't like was Bonnie. And one I wished we had seen more of was Cora Winston. 

[Bort]

6 minutes ago, Altair Aquila said:

Frasier should be thankful that Sam Malone existed. Diane Chambers. Talk about a narrow escape.

If Sam hadn't existed, Frasier might not have even met Diane or anyone else at Cheers. Weirdly, Diane was the one who prodded Frasier and Lilith together in the first place. He might not have even given Lilith a second look if it hadn't been for Diane. While it didn't work out between them, I bet that's something in his life that Frasier wouldn't change.

[ByTor]

On 2/21/2017 at 8:04 AM, Altair Aquila said:

One of Martin's girlfriends I really didn't like was Bonnie. 

Sherry was the one I couldn't stand.

[FormerMod-a1]

If I'm remembering them correctly, I didn't really like Bonnie either, but I thought Sherry was a good fit.  Yes, she could be "too much" sometimes, but not all the time.  She was basically a good person and they had shared interests and approaches to life, it seemed.

[ByTor]

I just saw the one last night where Martin was going to propose to Sherry, but he ended up breaking up with her instead.  I love when Frasier says something about the wedding march being played on the banjo...the way he said "banjo" to mock Sherry was so funny :)

[Altair Aquila]

I liked Sherry, too. I thought her a very warm, kind person, and I don't think she deserved the brothers' snooty comments. Honestly, the way they spoke about her reminded me of their behaviour in Dinner at Eight. 

I thought Martin was full of laughs and life when he was with Sherry, and I really enjoyed seeing him like that. It felt more natural than what he had with Ronee.

[peacheslatour]

3 hours ago, ByTor said:

Sherry was the one I couldn't stand.

Same here, I won't even watch the episodes she's on. I agree that she was nice and warm hearted but she was so freakin clueless and insistent on Martin doing things he didn't want to do.

[msani19]

I was just watching part of Season 11, and seeing the relationship with Ronee and Martin as it begins to play out. Wendie Malick and John Mahoney are excellent actors, but their relationship seemed forced and at times I felt like the actors might have been like "but why are they together, I don't get it". I didn't like them together but it was the end of the show so I guess they needed to pair him up with someone. 

Sherry was a lot but she didn't bother me too much. Mind you, I can only watch Sherry episodes occasionally! She was the one that Martin seemed most at ease and natural with, so that's what I appreciated about their pairing even though Sherry was exhausting. There's no way I could have made it the entire run of the show with a Martin/Sherry pairing. 

Bonnie was dull as dish water and stiff as a board. I also thought Maureen was pretty dull. I always forget that Martin dated her. 

Who else did they pair Martin with? I feel like I'm forgetting someone. 

[indeed]

Mrs. Wajadubakowski (sp?).  ;)

There was that Peg (security guard Martin worked with) for a couple episodes that didn't go anywhere.  It seemed a waste of that actress, like there was supposed to be more story there than just a misunderstanding that he was with Daphne's mom.

(Also, Cam's mom, who I think was mentioned recently above.)

[msani19]

How could I forget Cam's mom! I loved the episode when they pretended to be dating to force Cam and Frasier to play nice. I know the Cam Newton storyline stopped because the actor was too busy with Broadway. I really liked that storyline. They could have still had his mother & Martin date. I wonder why they decided to drop that one. 

[Ailianna]

On 2/23/2017 at 11:43 PM, indeed said:

Mrs. Wajadubakowski (sp?).  ;)

There was that Peg (security guard Martin worked with) for a couple episodes that didn't go anywhere.  It seemed a waste of that actress, like there was supposed to be more story there than just a misunderstanding that he was with Daphne's mom.

(Also, Cam's mom, who I think was mentioned recently above.)

Cam's mom, Cora Winston, was the one who had the misunderstanding about Martin "dating" Daphne's mom.

Peg was the security guard Martin kissed at a party who never called and was totally casual about it, and made Marty insecure and had him calling because "why isn't she calling?"

[indeed]

No, Peg overheard Martin telling Gertrude a fib to get her disinterested in him because she (and Peg from afar) thought they were on a date.  They were on a ferry together because Niles wanted Daphne's mom out of the house so he could propose.  At least I think it was the same character Martin had been interested in from work.  

[Harry24]

Quote

They could have still had his mother & Martin date. I wonder why they decided to drop that one. 

I adored Cam (wish he had been free to become a more regular guest star), but I think the actress who played his mother, however lovely, wasn't a big enough star to become the regular love interest for Martin.  They were very charming together and worked so well as characters, alas.

[Athena]

Cora does come back and say that Daphne's mother scares her off from Martin as well. Gosh, I can't stand the Moons.

[ari333]

4 minutes ago, Athena said:

Cora does come back and say that Daphne's mother scares her off from Martin as well. Gosh, I can't stand the Moons.

Me too. I liked Daphne, but hated her family - all of them; and all the eppys they appear in are among my least favorites.

I liked Cora and Cam was funny.

[peacheslatour]

Wendie Malick has been on the last few times I've watched. I really like her and I like her for Martin. I think she fits right in with all of the zany antics.

Edited March 10, 2017 by peacheslatour

[Miss Chevious]

On 3/10/2017 at 5:40 PM, peacheslatour said:

Wendie Malick has been on the last few times I've watched. I really like her and I like her for Martin. I think she fits right in with all of the zany antics.

Me too. I like her a heck of a lot more than that brassy Sherry.

[ketose]

The funny thing is that Martin getting girlfriends and Niles getting with Daphne shows how those 2 Crane boys experienced some personal change or growth during the series. Frasier really didn't, but it would have blunted the comedy.

[ari333]

I didn't like that Sam, Samantha character, who Frasier dated. She was an atty and the story arc lasted two or three eppys.

[Harry24]

Quote

I didn't like that Samantha character

I liked the first episode where Frasier was "the girl" (as Daphne put it), but I thought the actress playing Sam was very weak.  I loathed the second episode where Frasier was so celebrity-hungry.

Edited March 19, 2017 by Harry24

[Aquarius]

Seeing the last episodes recently on Cozi reminded me of how much I really didn't like Charlotte for Frasier.  She was entirely too wacky and insecure.  They tried to play it off like he found her so refreshingly charming.  I never bought it.  There was no chemistry there.

[Nordly Beaumont]

Totally blanking on Charlotte - who played her?

[Aquarius]

12 hours ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Totally blanking on Charlotte - who played her?

Laura Linney.

She's Frasier's last girlfriend of the series.  We're supposed to believe he leaves an entire life in Seattle behind and passes up a fantastic job opportunity in San Francisco (?) to go be with her in Chicago.  Blech.

[Nordly Beaumont]

11 hours ago, Aquarius said:

Laura Linney.

Sooo... I blanked on the woman he ends up with! What a dork. I do have an absolutely irrational hate for Laura Linney (I have no reason to hate her, none, but I do) so maybe that's why...

Edited March 25, 2017 by Nordly Beaumont

[msani19]

On 3/23/2017 at 3:47 PM, Aquarius said:

Seeing the last episodes recently on Cozi reminded me of how much I really didn't like Charlotte for Frasier.  She was entirely too wacky and insecure.  They tried to play it off like he found her so refreshingly charming.  I never bought it.  There was no chemistry there.

 

I totally agree on the lack of chemistry between Frasier & Charlotte. Everything about their whatever, I hesitate to call it a relationship, was rushed to the point of ludicrous. While I appreciated the ending with Frasier taking a chance he wouldn't have taken before, the fact that it was for Charlotte was eye rolling. Nothing about their interactions was believable enough for me to buy into him doing such a gesture. I think Laura Linney is a pretty decent actress but her skills failed her in that role. Charlotte was fine just not as a romantic partner. 

[Ailianna]

Did anyone else notice that another of Frasier's loves, his former station manager Kate, also left him to a job in Chicago.  Not sure if there's any deeper meaning to it, but I just saw the one where they say goodbye at the airport, as she's on her way to Chicago.  It just rang a bell since Charlotte also went to Chicago. But he and Charlotte never had the "likes/dislikes" conversation that he and Kate did, so the realization that they are completely different never hit.  But the fact was that in many ways he shared more in common with her naturalist boyfriend (surprisingly), like literature and art, than he did with Charlotte.  I would have preferred him to go to San Francisco and take the new job challenge, not send the message that everyone has to have a significant other to get a happy ending.

[ari333]

On ‎3‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 8:34 PM, Ailianna said:

Did anyone else notice that another of Frasier's loves, his former station manager Kate, also left him to a job in Chicago.  Not sure if there's any deeper meaning to it, but I just saw the one where they say goodbye at the airport, as she's on her way to Chicago.  It just rang a bell since Charlotte also went to Chicago. But he and Charlotte never had the "likes/dislikes" conversation that he and Kate did, so the realization that they are completely different never hit.  But the fact was that in many ways he shared more in common with her naturalist boyfriend (surprisingly), like literature and art, than he did with Charlotte.  I would have preferred him to go to San Francisco and take the new job challenge, not send the message that everyone has to have a significant other to get a happy ending.

I didn't see the eppy, (finale) but I agree with your points.

[peacheslatour]

On 3/26/2017 at 5:34 PM, Ailianna said:

Did anyone else notice that another of Frasier's loves, his former station manager Kate, also left him to a job in Chicago.  Not sure if there's any deeper meaning to it, but I just saw the one where they say goodbye at the airport, as she's on her way to Chicago.  It just rang a bell since Charlotte also went to Chicago. But he and Charlotte never had the "likes/dislikes" conversation that he and Kate did, so the realization that they are completely different never hit.  But the fact was that in many ways he shared more in common with her naturalist boyfriend (surprisingly), like literature and art, than he did with Charlotte.  I would have preferred him to go to San Francisco and take the new job challenge, not send the message that everyone has to have a significant other to get a happy ending.

I loved him with Kate. Okay, I just love Mercedes Ruehl. DH and I firmly believe she should be in all the shows.

[voiceover]

Yeah, I liked Kate the best, and feel like the differences that came out at the airport were as trumped-up as what Sex & the City dumped on Berger.

[peacheslatour]

Oh boy, I saw Mercedes Ruehl on NCIS last night. Either she's had some really bad work done or she was in a terrible face accident.

[SmithW6079]

On 3/24/2017 at 8:57 AM, Aquarius said:

Laura Linney.

She's Frasier's last girlfriend of the series.  We're supposed to believe he leaves an entire life in Seattle behind and passes up a fantastic job opportunity in San Francisco (?) to go be with her in Chicago.  Blech.

Wait, is that the finale? All these years, I thought he took the opportunity in San Francisco and was going to try and make a long-distance relationship work with Charlotte. Either way, I didn't like her; the relationship came out of nowhere. 

Lilith was the best (and for me, only)  partner for Frasier. 

[Aquarius]

15 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

Wait, is that the finale? All these years, I thought he took the opportunity in San Francisco and was going to try and make a long-distance relationship work with Charlotte. Either way, I didn't like her; the relationship came out of nowhere. 

Lilith was the best (and for me, only)  partner for Frasier. 

When the plane lands, the pilot announces "Welcome to Chicago."  Frasier says to the fellow passenger he's been telling all about Charlotte and his decision to leave Seattle, "Wish me luck."  So I think he decided to relocate to Chicago.

And yes, Lilith was Frasier's equal and his only suitable partner.  Their breakup came out of nowhere but that's actually a subject for the board of another series.  ;-)

[indeed]

I don't know that the relationship came out of nowhere - they spent several episodes on it.  He also didn't pick up his entire life and move for her - he was going to do that anyway - he just decided on a different city with unknown job prospects but with (from his perspective) very real love potential (which was what he supposedly really wanted).  The show just didn't do a good job writing-wise IMO of convincing viewers about the attraction.  Frasier went through A LOT of women on that show, but somehow Charlotte was "the one".  I bought Ronnie and Martin more.  I never cared if Lilith and Frasier got back together, they would always be very important to each other.  But the writing for Frasier and Charlotte wasn't very strong IMO.  Still, there's hope it worked out.  I liked the finale.

[SmithW6079]

On 5/15/2017 at 10:10 AM, indeed said:

I don't know that the relationship came out of nowhere - they spent several episodes on it.  He also didn't pick up his entire life and move for her - he was going to do that anyway - he just decided on a different city with unknown job prospects but with (from his perspective) very real love potential (which was what he supposedly really wanted).  The show just didn't do a good job writing-wise IMO of convincing viewers about the attraction.

Yes, they spent several episodes, but it still seemed forced. It was like the producers said, "We gave Niles snd Daphne a happy ending, and Martin and his girlfriend, so we have to do the same for Frasier." They had already killed any chance of Lilith and Frasier as end game, so they had to come up with somebody.

[indeed]

Yes, it was forced.  They've written better love interests for him in less time (IMO).  So, it could have been done well enough, but the effort seemed to stop at casting Laura Linney.  Hey, they had Daphne deliver in a pet clinic with a bumbling Jason Biggs.  Quality writing wasn't exactly a major concern at that point.

[Blakeston]

I'd say it was ambiguous whether Frasier was moving to Chicago, or whether he was just showing up there to make one last attempt to win over Charlotte. I took the main point of the ending to be that Frasier wasn't giving up on love. (As opposed to a sign that he and Charlotte definitely got together, or that he was definitely turning down the San Francisco opportunity.)

It wasn't an ideal ending, but I liked it better than if they had explicitly shown Frasier and Charlotte living happily ever after. Frasier had shown over and over that he was too neurotic, picky and self-sabotaging to maintain a healthy relationship in the long run. But I like the idea that he was going to keep trying, and maybe get to the point where love could work out for him.

[BitterApple]

I liked Faye and Kate the best out of Frasier's girlfriends. 

For Martin, I liked Sherry. 

I loathed Daphne and Niles as a couple. Daphne turned into a jealous, nagging shrew once they got together and I never found them believable. I understand they were going for the 'opposites attract' deal, but Niles and Daphne had absolutely nothing in common. I don't think they would've lasted in real life once the initial attraction wore off. 

Edited May 21, 2017 by BitterApple

[AriAu]

Quote

I'd say it was ambiguous whether Frasier was moving to Chicago, or whether he was just showing up there to make one last attempt to win over Charlotte. I took the main point of the ending to be that Frasier wasn't giving up on love. (As opposed to a sign that he and Charlotte definitely got together, or that he was definitely turning down the San Francisco opportunity.)

I always thought that he was just making a pitch for her to come to SF and wasn't moving to Chicago permanently...but they did leave it unanswered.

I liked the relationship with Charlotte because they seemed to enjoy being together and it was not all about spur of the moment passion.  Seemed like Frasier could be himself with her. Plus, if nothng else, it gave us that great episode with Celia Weston and Steven Root-cracks me up every time I see it.

[peacheslatour]

On 5/21/2017 at 8:37 AM, BitterApple said:

I liked Faye and Kate the best out of Frasier's girlfriends. 

For Martin, I liked Sherry. 

I loathed Daphne and Niles as a couple. Daphne turned into a jealous, nagging shrew once they got together and I never found them believable. I understand they were going for the 'opposites attract' deal, but Niles and Daphne had absolutely nothing in common. I don't think they would've lasted in real life once the initial attraction wore off. 

I liked Kate a lot. Faye was just too weird. Sherry? Bleh. I do agree about Niles and Daphne. They had no chemistry. He needed someone more petite and cultured. Not to say Maris lite, but Daphne was too tall and awkward to be with someone as refined as Niles.

[BitterApple]

4 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I liked Kate a lot. Faye was just too weird. Sherry? Bleh. I do agree about Niles and Daphne. They had no chemistry. He needed someone more petite and cultured. Not to say Maris lite, but Daphne was too tall and awkward to be with someone as refined as Niles.

I totally agree. Daphne towering over Niles looked so odd in all their scenes. From a purely aesthetic standpoint, Niles looked much better with Mel.