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The Love Interests: Pale Shadows of Lilith (if that's possible)

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Here is where we can discuss the many dates and relationships the main cast had.  Who did we love?  Who did we hate?  etc

I, personally, thought Shari was the best match for Martin.  And I really didn't like Ronnie, but that's who he ended up with.

As for Frasier, I got sick of Lana real fast (and her kid too).  The first couple of episodes were fine, it was the later ones that made me roll my eyes.

 

If someone thinks of a clever secondary title, post it, I can change the title.

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I love Marsha Mason, but I always felt that Shari was too much of a character for me.  And I never understood the Ronnie thing, huh?  I always thought that Bonnie (the ham loaf gal) would have suited Martin, I just thought they were cute together.

 

I am sorry, but Lilith is the only person that fits with Frasier.  From the day he said on Cheers, "I'm going to kiss you. I'm going to kiss you hard and I'm going to kiss you long, but make no mistake about it, I am going to kiss you. In fact, I'm going to kiss you like you've never..." - that sealed the deal for me.  She was a much better fit than Diane, ever, and every other girl pales in comparison, just like RedZoneTuba said, if that's possible.

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Topic Title changed! Thanks, RedZone Tuba.

Oh, I forgot about Bonnie. I liked her, too.

And that's a great quote from Frasier to Lilith. I do think they were the best fit.

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For Frasier: Lilith. Forever and always.

 

Martin: I could not stand most of Martin's girlfriends. The only one I liked him with was Cam Winston's mother. She was sweet and smart. Considering how similar Cam was to Frasier and Niles, I could see how Martin would be attracted to her like he was to Hester.

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Dang Athena, I totally spaced on her!  The vet!  Yes, I think that is an even better match than Bonnie. 

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I really like her. I've never watched Cheers.

 

 

Mindwalker, I am going to recommend you watch the episode of Cheers that I quoted from (Abnormal Psychology).  The whole episode is a classic, and it gives you great insight into the start of their relationship.

 

I don't know why they did what they did to their relationship at the end, it was so out of character for Lilith, but maybe it was in preparation for Frasier to move on to a new series.

 

You can find the episode on Netflix or Amazon Prime.

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No one can top Lilith, but if I had to pick someone for Frasier other than her, I'd go for Claire.  She got along with Martin, too!

 

For Martin, I liked Ronnie just fine.  Or more precisely, I liked the way she teased Frasier -- "You may get away with that now, but once I'm your mother ...". Cam's mother was great, though, and it would have meant more Cam, who was never not awesome, even when he wasn't in an episode.  "That was the worst impression of Cam I've heard!" "You've heard another?" "No." "Then that was the best impression."

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CLAIRE is a very close second to Lilith. I love Bebe Neuwirth and was saddened when their happily ever after on the Cheers series finale was so short-lived. =( I was so ticked off at the writers poor decision in having Frasier develop "feelings" for Lana even if we got a great scene with Lilith out of it. I liked Patricia Clarkson as Claire, she was a good match for Frasier. I would have liked Charlotte if it weren't for the short time allotted for the character and her arc. I thought if they had given it more time to develop I may have rooted for those two. I thought the writers were really trying to set up a parallel between Frasier and Charlotte: both living with their parents, rebuilding and starting new chapters in their lives after divorce.

 

For Martin, I liked Sherri and Bonnie, but I think I enjoyed Cora Winston the best. There was something sweet about their relationship. Ronnie to me was a poor Sherri-redux.

Edited by Lily Adler
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I would say a close second for Frasier would also be: Patrick Stewart's Alistair Burke, the opera director. One of the best latter season episodes.

 

I agree that Claire was a lovely character and the writers definitely made her quite perfect to contrast against horrible Lana. Frasier seems to have bad taste in women post-Lilith. All the good ones got away and he kept pining for the annoying ones.

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Who could forget Kate Costas? OMG, Bad Boy and Dirty Girl, I think Frasier would have been good with her. I am leaning towards all the women that he fights with, he shows his most attractive side when he is passionate, even in anger. Lilith, Kate, Lana, even Roz (I could see THAT working), those are relationships that would work in the long run. I don't like the Diane's, Charlotte's, Caitlin's (remember her), Claire's.

However, I have to contradict myself, because I could definitely see him and Alistar together. ::giggle::

And on the opposite, as much as I love Felicity Huffman, I couldn't STAND her character on Frasier. I was like, GO AWAY. But I did love the sexual harassment episode where they did the Sam/Diane thing and it backfired on him. HA!

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Claire is my choice and I hate Frasier for his behavior when they went on that trip to Belize. She was perfect for him!

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If it couldn't be Lilith, Claire was my favorite. I wanted Frasier to date Claire for a short while to see what it was like to be happy. Maybe they could have broken up over finding out she loves milk glass bud vases or decorated her place with 1970's colors like avocado green, orange and gold. Something at least funny.

 

On their trip, Frasier became an insufferable hot head. Frasier could have explored why he was angry, but there wasn't an answer. Instead, he spends his time obsessing over a dream he had of Lana. He asks everyone, even the guy vacuuming the plane, if he should pick Claire or Lana. I really got tired of his bad attitude. I wanted to like this episode since they were on a trip, supposed to be happy, and Frasier was with Claire. But, this one is on my list of clunkers.

 

Then there's that scene where Frasier has just dumped Claire and she's in the hall waiting for the elevator. Daphne is there talking to her. Claire mentions that she thought of Daphne as a sister. They both hug and cry. Daphne wanted a "sister" too.

 

I wonder if Kelsey was going thru another divorce at the time this episode was written. Maybe the writers were giving their opinion of his behavior and taking it out on him.

 

Edited because I couldn't remember if her name was Lorna or Lana at that time.

Edited by SunShine Gal
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I would say a close second for Frasier would also be: Patrick Stewart's Alistair Burke, the opera director. One of the best latter season episodes.

 

I agree that Claire was a lovely character and the writers definitely made her quite perfect to contrast against horrible Lana. Frasier seems to have bad taste in women post-Lilith. All the good ones got away and he kept pining for the annoying ones.

Hey if we were counting faux-relationships. I would have picked him, too. =p

Edited by Lily Adler
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I wonder if Kelsey was going thru another divorce at the time this episode was written. Maybe the writers were giving their opinion of his behavior and taking it out on him.

 

He had been married to Camille for some time by that point.  I actually distinctly remember a goof in the episode where Frasier meets Claire and Kelsey still had his wedding band on in some of the shots.

 

I really enjoyed both times Frasier realized his dream of being part of a "power couple."  He just gets so carried away with all the perks.

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Was he a "power couple" with that lawyer named Sam? I never really bought them as a couple for some reason. Probably because she supposedly dated guys like Kevin Costner and Brad Pitt. I also never bought him with the supermodel played by Sela Ward. I hated her over the top reaction to him taking her picture.

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I didn't like Claire and Frasier, but I did like her interactions with the rest of the family. I'm not sure if they could have kept that up over time. I liked Lana better before Frasier and she were dating. Her first episode is a classic. Was her name Lorna in that episode, or did Kelsey just say it unclearly for the entire episode?

 

I'm not sure who the best love interest was for Frasier, but I feel they got more interesting as the seasons went along (although Claire and Lana were later in the series.) The season one love interests, particularly, were just painful to watch, especially the younger girl who worked at the mall and sold Frasier pants and that caller who dumped her boyfriend Marco for Frasier. Considering I can't even remember her name, I think she wins the prize for the most boring love interest of the series. Even when I saw that episode the first time, I remember feeling inexpelicably annoyed by her and Frasier bonding over yellow M&Ms.

 

I liked Shari a lot in the original episodes, but she doesn't "hold up" well in reruns. She seems to forced or something. I sort of hated when they gave Martin girlfriends who were things like loud and crass. He was married for decades to Hester, who Frasier and Niles "took after." I agree with the posters who liked him with Cam Winston's mom, because she probably would have been more similar to Hester. Ronnie fell somewhere in between Cora Winston and Sherry, and I feel very...indifferent toward her.

 

Niles' love interests: I liked Mel and found Niles and Mel far more believable together than Niles and Daphne. I got used to the pairing of Niles and Daphne after their first season "together," but their first few episodes as a couple are brutal to watch. Slightly unrelated, but I also hated in their first episode together when Frasier offers her Sherry and tells her she doesn't have to answer the door. Yes, she was now his brother's girlfriend, but still, she had been living with Frasier for years. He couldn't have been hospitable to her before?

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Thanks for the call back to two of the worst girlfriends ever - the Marco girlfriend and the Lolita from the shopping mall. And it never really went anywhere, but the very young co-worker who was hitting on Frasier in the Dr. Clint Webber episode would have been disastrous also. Are we really to believe Frasier is catnip to very young girls in the latter two cases? And the first two were just horrific actresses.

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that caller who dumped her boyfriend Marco for Frasier.

The boyfriend was the caller and he subsequently dumped her and she went to the station and met Frasier.

I really liked Claire and Sherry. To me Ronee was a younger and prettier package of Sherry.

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I would say a close second for Frasier would also be: Patrick Stewart's Alistair Burke, the opera director. One of the best latter season episodes.

 

I agree that Claire was a lovely character and the writers definitely made her quite perfect to contrast against horrible Lana. Frasier seems to have bad taste in women post-Lilith. All the good ones got away and he kept pining for the annoying ones
Hey if we were counting faux-relationships. I would have picked him, too. =p

 

 

 

 

 

If we're going with faux relationships, I would definitely choose Alistair as a wonderful companion for Frasier, but only if Alistair could accept being a sugar daddy and Frasier settling for being a kept man lol. For Martin it would have been a tie between Cam's mother Cora and Edward (Emily's uncle from the opera on Valentine's Day in Out With Dad). Too bad Martin's character could not have been gay, because I think he and Edward would have made a charming couple. 

 

My least favorite relationship for Frasier would be Duke's daughter (forget her name/who is neurotic) followed closely Lana. 

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If we're going with faux relationships, I would definitely choose Alistair as a wonderful companion for Frasier, but only if Alistair could accept being a sugar daddy and Frasier settling for being a kept man lol.

 

He really had no problems with being a kept man and Frasier actually liked being part of a "power couple". He only gave up on the whole thing when he heard Alistair was abstinent when he made productions, but not between or after them. That's when Frasier freaked and got out of Dodge.

Edited by Athena · Reason: grammar and spelling
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::giggle::

 

So, remember in the 11th Season Episode 19?  Miss Right Now with Jennifer Tilly?

 

LOL! Its like Bizarro!Frasier.

 

Frasier always struck me as too uptight to always be on the dating merry-go-round. Not prudish, since he could cut loose with women and just have fun, but then his tendency to analyze everything until it barely exists would kick in and he'd spoil it. One of the reasons he and Lilith were so perfect for each other was because she was the only one who could out-analyze hm. Could they just not get Bebe Neuwirth full time when it was time to start the new series?

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LOL! Its like Bizarro!Frasier.

 

Frasier always struck me as too uptight to always be on the dating merry-go-round. Not prudish, since he could cut loose with women and just have fun, but then his tendency to analyze everything until it barely exists would kick in and he'd spoil it. One of the reasons he and Lilith were so perfect for each other was because she was the only one who could out-analyze hm. Could they just not get Bebe Neuwirth full time when it was time to start the new series?

 

Yes, I think it's because she wanted to go back to her roots in Broadway and theater so turned down a regular role.

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And in fact, opted out of her Cheers contract in the later years for that very reason so no, they couldn't get Bebe to be on Frasier full time.

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He really had no problems with being a kept man and Frasier actually liked being part of a "power couple". He only gave up on the whole thing when he heart Alistair was abstinent when he made productions, but between or after them. That's when Frasier freaked and got out of Dodge.

 

 

I guess sex was the deal breaker in that relationship. lol

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And in fact, opted out of her Cheers contract in the later years for that very reason so no, they couldn't get Bebe to be on Frasier full time.

I agree Lilith was the best match for him but the show would never have worked with Frasier as husband and father instead of bachelor Frasier living with Martin and Daphne.

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I liked Charlotte but that may be a bias in that I would watch Laura Linney read the phone book.

I also liked Faye. She won me over with jerking Frasier's chain by pretending he was proposing while he happened to be holding Daphne's engagement ring.

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I'm on the Lilith is Frasier's one and only bandwagon but I also like the direction that the writers took their relationship in the last two season of the show, which was towards acknowledging a deep, platonic love for each other. It took the sting off knowing they wouldn't end up together in the end.

If I had to pick from Frasier's other love interests, the obvious choice is Claire. She was sweet, got along great with Martin as well as Frasier and was good for him, so of course that was never going to work.

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I liked Faye too, didn't like Cassandra (Virginia Madsen's character) or Kate (Mercedes Ruhle) and hated Julia Wilcox (Felicity Huffman's character).

I disliked Julia and Cassandra as well, which is disappointing because I really like both Felicity Huffman and Virginia Madsen as actresses.

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I thought Frasier and Cassandra were not exactly symphatico, but I didn't hate them as a couple. Obviously Faye was a better match. Neither worked out, but in all honesty I always thought Faye was probably the best match for Frasier.

Edited by mansonlamps
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that caller who dumped her boyfriend Marco for Frasier.

 

 

Duke's daughter (forget her name/

 

I think both of them were named Marie.

 

My favorites for Frasier were definitely Claire and Faye. Disappointing when they painted characters as perfect for him only to have him ruin it in the space of an episode or two. It was hard to take the relationship with Charlotte seriously at the end when he'd never had a relationship last beyond a few episodes in eleven years.

 

I liked Sherry with Martin and always thought the guys were unfairly hard on her. Yes, she wasn't like them but she was very sweet. Like when Frasier had the three dates in one weekend and during the first one was telling lie after lie (being a vegetarian, loving animals) and then when Sherry showed up, his lies were revealed. The next day, he's complaining to Niles, completely blaming Sherry for ruining his date.

 

I did also like Cora with Martin.

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The reason the Sherry episodes are among my favourites is mostly because I love the way she gets under Frasier and Niles's skin.  They are just so turned off by her.  I really really enjoy the show when Frasier and Niles's snobbishness gets kicked into high gear, it's very entertaining for me.

 

I wasn't surprised to learn that Sherry is such an accomplished actor.  It makes sense.  I really buy that character and I really buy that she loved Martin.  Niles is so tense around her it's just fantastic.

 

I'm sure I'm not the only one who wonders if Martin belongs with Roz.... ha ha ha!

 

I really, really, really didn't like Faye.  Claire was just far too boring, but obviously sweet, just TOO sweet.

 

I thought the Felicity Huffman arc was amazing too.  She was a nasty person but again, I love everyone's reactions towards her.  The sexual harassment episode was indeed hilarious and I've talked at length about how fantastic the episode is where Frasier is determined to make things work with her, but she meets Frasier's family and she is just atrocious towards them. He's so stubborn, but she's so awful, and finally her awfulness wins out and he has to kick her out of his house.  Remember when she's choking on cereal, Frasier is so hurt that she insulted his drawing and Martin, Daphne, and Niles just sit there silently and wait it out :)

 

Frasier:  SHAAAAAME ON YOU....

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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Am I the only one who thought Mel was absolutely perfect for Niles, until they made her over-the-top awful for the sake of Niles/Daphne? Okay, then.

 

As for Frasier, hmm. I guess I have to say Faye was the best fit for him, though I wasn't crazy about her. Maybe Regan, too, though he kept screwing that up. (Of course.) You know what? I actually loved when Frasier hooked up with the children's book author played by Rita Wilson who was a dead ringer for his mom. Mainly because that episode is freakin' hilarious, especially Niles and Martin's reactions.

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Am I the only one who thought Mel was absolutely perfect for Niles, until they made her over-the-top awful for the sake of Niles/Daphne? Okay, then.

No, you are not alone. In the beginning Mel was perfect for Niles. Even after they trashed the character, I still would rather have seen her with Niles. Niles and Daphne as a couple were the worst. So unbelievable. He should have pined until he finally decided to be her friend. Edited by Aquarius
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No, you are not alone. In the beginning Mel was perfect for Niles. Even after they trashed the character, I still would rather have seen her with Niles. Niles and Daphne as a couple were the worst. So unbelievable. He should have pined until he finally decided to be her friend.

Totally agree with this. Mel was so good at building up Niles and she was portrayed as though she truly believed in him. We saw that in her speech to Daphne when Daphne was giving her a massage (okay she was awful to Daphne before that.) And in the Cork Master episode when she got him to believe in himself enough to run against Frasier. Daphne never appeared to really have that spark for Niles that Mel did.

Edited by mansonlamps

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Totally agree with this. Mel was so good at building up Niles and she was portrayed as though she truly believed in him. We saw that in her speech to Daphne when Daphne was giving her a massage (okay she was awful to Daphne before that. And in the Cork Master episode when she got him to believe in himself enough to run against Frasier. Daphne never appeared to really have that spark for Niles that Mel did.

 

Exactly right.  Mel was pushy and ambitious but she really believed in Niles.  I always felt like Daphne suddenly developed her feelings for Niles after finding out how into her he was . . . it was more a matter of "wow, he really loves me!" more than she fell in love with him.  Mel's personality was abrasive and she was very direct, but she did seem to be in love with Niles. 

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Calling all Frasier fans!

"Madam Secretary" premieres tonight, and Bebe Neuwirth co-stars as the Chief of Staff!

 

Madam Secretary (TV series)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Madam Secretary is an upcoming American drama television series about Elizabeth Faulkner McCord, a female Secretary of State. The pilot episode was picked up for series in April 2014. The first episode will air in the 8 p.m. time slot between 60 Minutes and The Good Wife on Sunday, September 21, 2014, on CBS as part of the 2014–15 television season.[1][2][3]

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I've been watching a lot of Frasier lately.

 

I think Frasier works best with someone who is able to puncture his pomposity.  Lilith does this beautifully and the actors have great chemistry.  I too would have preferred it if they had been able to bring Lilith onto the show, not least because I felt like it was implausible that Frasier would have moved so far away from his son.  I also really liked him with Julia.  It was clear that the writers just didn't want to do this but I am a little sorry that they didn't pursue Frasier/Roz for more than a one-off.

 

I think, in contrast, Niles works best with someone who builds up his self-esteem a bit, which is why I liked Mel the best of his love interests.  As others have said, she came across as though she really admired/respected him.  I just don't get the same thing from Daphne. I also always felt that Niles' feelings for Daphne were purely physical - his reaction to her is immediate and they are never shown having much in common.  I think, being the snob that Niles is, I don't think he could be happy long-term with someone who is as unintellectual as Daphne.  In retrospect, it's interesting that Niles has so few relationships over the course of the series - obviously he has long-term ones with Maris and Daphne which take up a lot of time - but I sort of think it would have been interesting to show him with a few other women.

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No, you are not alone. In the beginning Mel was perfect for Niles. Even after they trashed the character, I still would rather have seen her with Niles. Niles and Daphne as a couple were the worst. So unbelievable. He should have pined until he finally decided to be her friend.

When Niles was with Mel, he basically became Daphne's friend. Some of that was set up, the idea that just as Daphne knew Niles was crazy about her, he suddenly stopped sniffing her hair and going weak in the knees when she would talk about sex. Daphne kind of ended up being the home wrecker in Niles (and her) relationship in that season.

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Watching it again, on Netflix, which makes for the 4th or 5th time I've gone through the series.  lol  It's my comfort show, next to The Golden Girls.

 

 

Totally agree with this. Mel was so good at building up Niles and she was portrayed as though she truly believed in him. We saw that in her speech to Daphne when Daphne was giving her a massage (okay she was awful to Daphne before that.) And in the Cork Master episode when she got him to believe in himself enough to run against Frasier. Daphne never appeared to really have that spark for Niles that Mel did.

 

I really hated what they did to Mel (and Donny) just to make Niles and Daphne's affair more palatable.  I loved Mel, but once Fraiser (*incorrectly, imo) labelled Mel as a Maris retread, he kept picking away at her, until everyone else believed it as well.  He only gave her a few minutes while Mel met Niles in Frasier's condo before he made his first and final judgment.  I thought that they had changed Daphne too much by the end of the show. She lost pretty much all of her quirkiness and blue collar attitude. 

 

*The worst was that Mel was not a Maris type.  She was exactly like Niles in many ways, which is why he was so wowed by her.  She was fussy with cleanliness and organization, and was obsessed with dust and germs, and they shared the same interests.  But, in contrast to Niles, she was assertive, yet not emasculating, like Maris was.  She wanted to build him up, not tear him down.  And frankly, I didn't blame her one bit for wanting Niles to wait it out a bit for the divorce, so she could save face.  He broke up their marriage and hurt her, yet she was expected to just fade into the background quietly like their marriage never existed.   

 

I liked Claire, as well.  She and Martin had such a cute relationship.  And only when Frasier dumped her and she and Daphne talked, they realized how close they could have been, so I thought she would have made a great addition to the family.  I also liked Fabulous, Forever Faye, but she was a great match for him, so of course he couldn't appreciate that.  Didn't like Charlotte at all -- at all, at all.  It felt so rushed and forced (like the show was ending and they needed to put him with someone), and I can't imagine Frasier would have been very happy with her in the long term.  I like to think they broke up shortly after he flew to Chicago and he reunited with Faye.   

 

Lilith will always be my favorite, of all the women, though. 

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Watching it again, on Netflix, which makes for the 4th or 5th time I've gone through the series.  lol  It's my comfort show, next to The Golden Girls.

 

Comfort show.  Thanks for that.  This is a perfect explanation of what Frasier has become for me in recent years.

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Comfort show. Thanks for that. This is a perfect explanation of what Frasier has become for me in recent years.

Me too! My Wifi has been down for several days and I'm working too many hours to address it, but I really miss falling asleep to Frasier. It's like my bedtime story usually. Edited by mansonlamps
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Count me in the Comfort Show Club too. Frasier and the Golden Girls are both shows I love to relax and unwind with. 

 

As for love interests, the term "opposites attract" works for Niles and Daphne. I may in the minority, but I actually like them as a couple and was so glad when they finally got together. Niles could be an intellectual dreamer and Daphne with her down-to earth manner could keep him grounded. I think they were a great match.

 

And I think they saved the best for last for Frasier. Charlotte and Frasier made a great couple, she was enterprising, sweet and smart. Frasier would obviously wear the pants in any relationship he was in, but Charlotte could clearly hold her own in that relationship without being overbearing.

 

Poor Martin. I don't think the writers ever found the right woman for him. Sherry was too crass for him and Ronnie was way to young and cute to settle for an old guy like Martin. If she went for an older man, it would have to be a sugar daddy situation and Martin was definitely not in that category.They didn't fit well together at all.

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Frasier would have been a drastically different show if it were Frasier and Lilith (and Frederick) with Martin. This was a show about a bachelor, sort of like Dream On (which had Wendie Malick as a supporting character), where you could have a lot of farce. With Lilith, it would have been a family sitcom, albeit an intellectual version of the Munsters kind of sitcom.

 

I think Charlotte was as good as any other random woman who ended up dating Frasier. I think the whole thing with Claire was that she had to be perfect and when Belize wasn't perfect, Frasier realized it would never be perfect with any woman. By the way, Duke's daughter was Teri Hatcher.

 

I think Martin started getting girlfriends when Frasier started having (slightly) longer relationships to add some variety. It seemed kind of weird that Martin was always looking to get married. In some ways, I think Frasier would have been better with Martin and Hester.

 

Niles had an interesting story arc. After reading about some of the origins of the show, I saw that DHP was in a show called "The Powers That Be" where he played a Congressman dominated by his wife and in love with the housekeeper. That seems kind of familiar. Even though it couldn't last, I liked the episodes with Kit from the coffee shop, who wore Niles out. As far as Mel, it seemed like Niles was not seeing who she really was. Frasier saw it first because she was usurping his position as the lead brother. Still, Mel was kind of manipulative but she definitely got worse when they needed to fast track the Daphne storyline.

 

I thought Daphne was good for Niles. Whenever the show had those games about personal experiences, he came up empty. I think Niles gravitated to women who just reinforced a kind of empty lifestyle.

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I thought Mel was very similar to Niles and Frasier and had no issues with her. The similarities were shown between Niles and Mel and there could be a few reasons why Frasier disliked her. I liked Mel. Of course it was always going to be Daphne and Niles so she didn't stand a chance.

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