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S01.E12: Tape 6, Side B

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Hannah winds up at a party after an argument with her parents. The students are served with subpoenas, and Justin wrestles with conflicting loyalties.

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Geez, the moment she put the money bag on top of the Jeep I was like "I CANNOT TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" and then the rest was just stumbling uncontrollably down hill. I don't know how I'm going to watch the next one.

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There is a special place in hell for the character of Bryce or anyone like him in the real. 

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So, this was an incredibly depressing episode of television That hot tub scene was absolutely brutal. If nothing else happens by the end of the show, I hope Bryce gets his ass thrown in prison, at the very least. What makes it extra sad was that it was right after Hannah was feeling better and was seemingly fitting in more.

And then we get Justin getting choked out by his moms drug dealer boyfriend, and kicked out of his house by the asshole and his mom, who seems too strung out to actually care much about him. The earlier scene between Jess and Justin was also really sad. Jess is so heartbroken knowing that she was not only raped, but raped by someone she thought was her friend, and her boyfriend lied about it, and is making excuses for the rapist, and Justin just sounds pathetic, trying to list all the things Bryce and his family have done for him and how much he "owes" him. I wonder if the show was making a parallel between Justin being unwilling/unable to help Jess when she needed it, and siding with the abuser, with Justin's mom being unwilling/unable to help him when he needed it, and siding with the abuser?  

Its a sad of affairs for this school when you have cliff hanger where a teenager has a bullet in the head, and it could plausibly be any number of characters who shot themselves.

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2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And then we get Justin getting choked out by his moms drug dealer boyfriend, and kicked out of his house by the asshole and his mom, who seems too strung out to actually care much about him. The earlier scene between Jess and Justin was also really sad. Jess is so heartbroken knowing that she was not only raped, but raped by someone she thought was her friend, and her boyfriend lied about it, and is making excuses for the rapist, and Justin just sounds pathetic, trying to list all the things Bryce and his family have done for him and how much he "owes" him. I wonder if the show was making a parallel between Justin being unwilling/unable to help Jess when she needed it, and siding with the abuser, with Justin's mom being unwilling/unable to help him when he needed it, and siding with the abuser?  

I just rewatched the scene, and man is it brutal to watch. His mom completely abandons him by not fighting for her own son. She watches him get violently choked out by her boyfriend, and it seems like that situation has happened more than once in his life. There's a moment after he's choked where he's standing at the wall, holding his throat and calling out to his mom but she has very little concern in her eyes as she walks back into her bedroom with the guy. She seems afraid of her asshole boyfriend, but clearly chooses him over her son. It's rather sad that the woman has very little control and won't do anything to change for the sake of her own family. 

I don't know if the show was making a direct parallel but I think it definitely makes sense as to why Justin is clinging on to anything good in his life, or anything he perceives as good. He doesn't want to lose everything, but he's been spiraling since Jessica's rape. 

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From what we saw, it feels like Justin's moms boyfriend choking or beating him up seemed to be pretty common, with the only really different thing being that he was kicked out in a more permanent way. Of course, he might end up back there anyway, where else is he going to go now? I remember in an earlier episode his coach mentioned that he suspected his moms boyfriends (plural) of abusing him for quite awhile, but I don't remember if the coach mentioned actually doing anything about it. If he did, I guess it didn't accomplish much. But, knowing this school, Justin could walk in with a broken arm, two black eyes, and hand marks all over his neck, and the school would just assume he fell down on some stairs.

His mom seemed like she was actually trying to help for half a second, but it was more like "the neighbors will hear and inconvenience us" and not "your hurting my son you asshole". Maybe she is scared of the guy and doesn't feel like she can help him, but just turning on Justin while he cries for her is cold as hell.

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8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, he might end up back there anyway, where else is he going to go now?

I got the impression he was planning to leave town. Jessica told him her only wish was never to see him again and I think he was planning on trying to give that to her.

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Oh, Hannah. Doesn't everyone know not to put stuff on the roof of a car? Especially not a tall car like that! And why would you put stuff on your car so that you can call someone BEFORE you get in the car? I would put everything in my car and then call someone from the quiet of the inside of my car.

I was cracking up at Courtney's shocked, "How did you find us?!" when Tyler showed up to their little meeting. You guys are in what seems to be the only coffee house in the entire town. It's not exactly a top secret location. That's why it was even funnier that they were discussing Hannah, the tapes, Bryce being a rapist, etc. IN PUBLIC yet trying to shush Tyler or whoever didn't agree with them.

I was shaking my head over Marcus clutching his pearls at the Tyler's suggestion to "sacrifice" Bryce to save their own asses. As if they weren't sacrificing Hannah this whole time in order to save their own asses. I'm glad Alex was willing to tell the truth. And FINALLY people are starting to admit the truth! I was glad when Sheri called to report that she hit the stop sign. I am cautiously optimistic about Courtney being honest with her dad, but I'll withhold judgment until I get confirmation that she actually admitted anything to her dad. It was just galling that she kept insisting that Bryce MIGHT be innocent because she wanted so badly to stick to her "Hannah is a liar" story in order to deny that she was gay.

Justin's mom is so terrible, choosing her abusive boyfriend over her own son. I have no words. I'm surprised that Justin had a stash of money at his mom's apartment. I wouldn't leave a roll of cash anywhere near his mom's boyfriend.

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Its a sad of affairs for this school when you have cliff hanger where a teenager has a bullet in the head, and it could plausibly be any number of characters who shot themselves.

But it has to be Tyler since he's the one who bought a gun earlier in the episode. I guess it could be Jessica since she knows the combination to her dad's safe. I want to know what other info Tyler has, damn it!

It was sad to see how gleeful Clay was about getting Bryce's "confession." At first I thought he had a gun and was going to shoot Bryce, but he was obviously trying to get him to confess on tape so that he could take it to the police, but I'm pretty sure that what Bryce said ("If you want to call it rape, call it rape") isn't enough to help Jessica or the Bakers or anyone. It's not really an admission of anything.

Man, every time that cut on Clay's head is on the verge of healing, he manages to get hurt again. Bryce was not fucking around. One punch would have sufficed but he really kicked the shit out of Clay.

Edited by ElectricBoogaloo

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9 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm pretty sure that what Bryce said ("If you want to call it rape, call it rape") isn't enough to help Jessica or the Bakers or anyone. It's not really an admission of anything.

Most of what Bryce said on tape was making it sound like Hannah was coming on to him or at least was going along with it, so I don't think that last "If you want to call it rape" statement would count for much. In any case, wouldn't the tape be inadmissible in court because he was not aware of being recorded? It's not like Clay had a warrant.

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If the story is supposed to take place in California (where it was filmed), you need two party consent so even if Clay had been able to get Bryce to admit to raping Hannah (which he didn't), the recording would be useless. But even without taking two party consent into consideration for the legality of the recording, what Bryce said is also useless. The way he said, "If you want to call it rape, call it rape," was along the same lines of someone saying, "If you want to call ketchup a vegetable, whatever."

One thing that I found really sad was Hannah said that Bryce raping her made her reputation as a slut true. It makes me want to cry when I hear even fictional girls tie their worth to their sexuality. It makes me even angrier/sadder/more frustrated that any girl would think that being RAPED is a negative reflection on her. The moment when Hannah realized that Bryce wasn't going to stop and she just went dead eyed and limp was heart breaking. She knew there was no way to stop what was going to happen.

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On 4/15/2017 at 0:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Justin's mom is so terrible, choosing her abusive boyfriend over her own son. I have no words. I'm surprised that Justin had a stash of money at his mom's apartment. I wouldn't leave a roll of cash anywhere near his mom's boyfriend.

I got the impression that the stash wasn't his. I assumed it was the boyfriend's and that he's going to be pretty mad once he finds out. Hopefully Justin isn't around when that happens. Although what happens with the subpoena if he skips town?

This was a hard episode to watch. With Hannah's dead eyes and Justin getting choked out to the beating Clay got. Probably the most graphic episode so far. I always wondered why Bryce wouldn't have a tape but I guess it was just that the others weren't telling him for whatever reason. Why do they feel the need to protect him from it all? Because he can bring them all down with him?

I also didn't see why it was the end if Clay passed them on. The initial threat still stands. Bryce has the most to lose you'd think so I would expect him to pass them onto whoever is last.

Did anyone else see Mr Porter circled on the sheet Hannah made? I wonder if he's our last tape and, if so, what he did.

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I always wondered why Bryce wouldn't have a tape but I guess it was just that the others weren't telling him for whatever reason. Why do they feel the need to protect him from it all? Because he can bring them all down with him?

I think it was two different things. The first is that there was a tacit agreement that you only discuss the tapes and what Hannah said on the tapes with people who have already heard them. Since Bryce was so far down on the list, they couldn't just say, "Hey, Bryce, Hanna said you raped both her and Jessica. Care to comment?" They were supposed to wait until Bryce heard his tape before they said anything to him about what he did. I think that's one of the reasons why Marcus, Courtney, and Justin kept telling Clay to stop listening to the tapes and just pass them on. They knew if he heard that Bryce had raped Hannah, he wasn't going to keep quiet about it.

The second thing was that in order to bring Bryce down for either of the two rapes, they would have to admit that Hannah was telling the truth, get Jessica to admit that she was raped, and turn the tapes over to the police which would expose all the shitty things that the rest of them did. Marcus, Courtney, and Justin were insistent that Hannah was lying (because the truth made them look like assholes) so they didn't want to admit that Hannah was telling the truth.

From a practical point of view, convicting Bryce of rape would be very difficult. There was no physical evidence from either rape because neither girl went to the police to have a rape kit done afterward. Hannah is dead so all Bryce has to say is that it's his word against hers. She can't refute anything he says. Jessica didn't want to admit she'd been raped and even if she did report it, she would have to admit that she was so drunk that she passed out and unfortunately, that would not work in her favor at trial. Keep in mind that I am NOT defending Marcus, Courtney, or any character who wanted to keep the tapes secret. I'm just saying from a logical and legal standpoint, a rape conviction would be VERY unlikely due to the lack of evidence so Marcus and Courtney don't want to ruin their perfect reputations for a crime that would go unpunished/unconvicted. It wasn't so much that they were actively trying to protect Bryce as that they were willing to stay silent in order to save themselves from being outed for what they'd done to Hannah (and being gay, in Courtney's case).

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On 4/14/2017 at 7:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

But it has to be Tyler since he's the one who bought a gun earlier in the episode. I guess it could be Jessica since she knows the combination to her dad's safe. I want to know what other info Tyler has, damn it!

Tyler, Jessica, and Alex (whose father would have a gun in the home) definitely have access, and Justin took a gun as well as cash from the cooking pot (just replayed the scene to make sure). So there are a lot of guns out there. They could either have turned the gun on themselves, or someone else. (the ambulance guys just said "17 year old with a gunshot wound to the head" - no gender, no "self-inflicted". So I think the field is wide open.

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I feel bad for Justin and all but please just stay the hell away from Jessica.  He's not redeemable for me in that relationship.  He needs to move on and become a better person, with someone else.

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8 hours ago, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense. And it helped a lot. 

I mentioned this in the izombie forum because in the season premiere, they gave one of the characters a mustache to specifically show when it was a flashback scene vs. the present. Clay's cut/scar/bandage throughout the series gave us a very easy way to tell which scenes were taking place in the present versus the past (in addition to the color filters).

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8 hours ago, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense.

It also was evidence of his being so distracted and/or upset by his memories that he got injured because he didn't pay attention to his surroundings. 

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On 4/14/2017 at 9:25 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was just galling that she [Courtney] kept insisting that Bryce MIGHT be innocent because she wanted so badly to stick to her "Hannah is a liar" story in order to deny that she was gay.

And I think that's what makes her the absolute WORST person at that table.

Put her words in any of the others' mouths and I could at least understand (not excuse or justify) why they would say such yucky things to save their own asses.  I mean look at what each one has to "lose" if all the things on the tapes come out -

-Tyler - possible criminal stalking/harassment charges

-Marcus - possible sexual assault charges

-Zach - possible loss of scholarship/college opportunities if he gets associated with bullying a girl into suicide

-Alex - looking like a jerk for that "Hot or Not" list

-Ryan - looking like a jerk for publishing Hannah's poem without permission 

-Courtney - people find out she is gay or bi-sexual

Of all the people at that "meeting", Courtney has the LEAST to lose and she is the one still vigorously defending a rapist and the other dirty shit.  Jessica/Justin/Sherri didn't go to the meeting and Clay, Bryce, and whoever is Tape 13 didn't get invited.

Maybe Courtney turns it around in the last episode but as of where I am now, there are others that I think are more evil than Courtney (Bryce) but Courtney is absolutely the one that makes me want to slap the shit out of her and then throw up.  She's so fucking gross.

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12 hours ago, Bama said:

Of all the people at that "meeting", Courtney has the LEAST to lose and she is the one still vigorously defending a rapist and the other dirty shit.  Jessica/Justin/Sherri didn't go to the meeting and Clay, Bryce, and whoever is Tape 13 didn't get invited.

I wouldn't say that she has the least to lose, because coming out is hard on anyone, and it sucks if she's forced to come out because of the tapes. However, she is wholly unlikable because of her fake kindness toward others and the fact that she's literally the only one actively defending a rapist. Like Alex said, "You're the only female here and you're defending a rapist." Everyone else believes that Bryce is a rapist BUT Courtney. So that is what makes her worse than almost everyone else that's part of the tapes (save for Bryce, of course, and arguably Marcus). 

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I so want someone to have finally decided to take Bryce out.  We know Taylor (or is it Tyler) got a gun, and was big on the if Bryce goes down, we could escape culpability.

My personal feeling is that if it is a suicide attempt, it's Alex.  That scene in his room with his father with ehtidying up and his reaction to the father's comments made me think something was amiss and then we get the teen with the gunshot to the head.  I hope I'm wrong though, as I think Alex has really been beating himself up for the F'd up things he did to Jessica and Hannah and the chain of events that were the offshoots of his actions.

I almost forgot that Justin might be at Hannah levels of desperate given what just happened and Zach's not picking up his call.  He can't go to Bryce, Jeccis basically told him to drop dead. Alex isn't an option for a long-term living set-up, so he might feel that like Hannah, he has nothing and no-one left to live for.

It better not be Clay, the kid, who aside from Jeff, deserves to have something good happen to him.

 

On 4/15/2017 at 0:54 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One thing that I found really sad was Hannah said that Bryce raping her made her reputation as a slut true. It makes me want to cry when I hear even fictional girls tie their worth to their sexuality. It makes me even angrier/sadder/more frustrated that any girl would think that being RAPED is a negative reflection on her. The moment when Hannah realized that Bryce wasn't going to stop and she just went dead eyed and limp was heart breaking. She knew there was no way to stop what was going to happen.

That was the moment that Hannah officially died.  Everything else were like slices into her soul, but that moment there was the equivalent of having someone tear open her chest and rip her heart out.  Bryce killed Hannah, as much as Hannah killed Hannah, because even if she wasn't already being weighed down by the rest of the ish in her life, being raped by the BMOC and feeling (and not incorrectly cause, rape culture is us), that if she told, she would be made the villain of the piece and Bryce the victim could have been enough to send even a happy and well adjusted person to where Hannah went.

 

On 4/22/2017 at 10:12 PM, Bama said:

And I think that's what makes her the absolute WORST person at that table.

Put her words in any of the others' mouths and I could at least understand (not excuse or justify) why they would say such yucky things to save their own asses.  I mean look at what each one has to "lose" if all the things on the tapes come out -

-Tyler - possible criminal stalking/harassment charges

-Marcus - possible sexual assault charges

-Zach - possible loss of scholarship/college opportunities if he gets associated with bullying a girl into suicide

-Alex - looking like a jerk for that "Hot or Not" list

-Ryan - looking like a jerk for publishing Hannah's poem without permission 

-Courtney - people find out she is gay or bi-sexual

Of all the people at that "meeting", Courtney has the LEAST to lose and she is the one still vigorously defending a rapist and the other dirty shit.  Jessica/Justin/Sherri didn't go to the meeting and Clay, Bryce, and whoever is Tape 13 didn't get invited.

Maybe Courtney turns it around in the last episode but as of where I am now, there are others that I think are more evil than Courtney (Bryce) but Courtney is absolutely the one that makes me want to slap the shit out of her and then throw up.  She's so fucking gross.

In the thread for episode 11, I listed Courtney right behind Bryce for being the absolute worst, followed by Marcus.  All three of them are awful, and while  she clearly is not a Bryce, in many ways she shows herself to be the worst in the room at all times, and given the levels of suck of these characters, that's truly saying something. Like you, I find her to be monsterous levels of awful.

On 4/23/2017 at 10:34 AM, Lady Calypso said:

I wouldn't say that she has the least to lose, because coming out is hard on anyone, and it sucks if she's forced to come out because of the tapes. However, she is wholly unlikable because of her fake kindness toward others and the fact that she's literally the only one actively defending a rapist. Like Alex said, "You're the only female here and you're defending a rapist." Everyone else believes that Bryce is a rapist BUT Courtney. So that is what makes her worse than almost everyone else that's part of the tapes (save for Bryce, of course, and arguably Marcus). 

The coming out excuse holds no water for me because she gleefully lied about Hannah being gay, outed her, added additional lying slander to the mix and continued laughing and talking about Hannah to deflect fro her ish, so , no, I feel no sympathy for the Woe is me, my life might be hard if the world found out I'm gay, even though I would still have the love and support of my gay dads. So F' Courtney she ranks right below Bryce as being a worthless, self-serving, vicious PoS.

Edited by Happytobehere
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1 hour ago, Happytobehere said:

The coming out excuse holds no water for me because she gleefully lied about Hannah being gay, outed her, added additional lying slander to the mix and continued laughing and talking about Hannah to deflect fro her ish, so , no, I feel no sympathy for the Woe is me, my life might be hard if the world found out I'm gay, even though I would still have the love and support of my gay dads. So F' Courtney she ranks right below Bryce as being a worthless, self-serving, vicious PoS.

Oh, I definitely rank Courtney right below Bryce as well. I don't like her any more than I like Marcus. My point was really that she didn't have the least to lose. I'd say that they all had something to lose, which is why they believed themselves that they didn't deserve the tapes coming out. I'd say Ryan has the least to lose, but he even lost his magazine. I still won't like Courtney unless there's a season 2 and they find a way to redeem her fully. I just have a tiny amount of sympathy for anyone who is that afraid of coming out. Even with two gay dads, and even though she chose to lie about Hannah's sexuality to protect herself (and that is pretty awful in itself, which is another reason why she's the second worst person for me), it can still be hard to come out. I have more sympathy for others, but she's not at the Zero Sympathy level, where Bryce is. 

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On the other hand, there is something to be said for Bryce never really trying to hide the fact that he's a creepy predatory asshole. I'm not saying that makes him better, but it annoys me that Courtney puts on that fake nice girl act (as does Marcus).

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I feel like Justin's shitty home life is getting him off the hook on these rankings.  I don't believe its because he's a good looking bad boy who needs to be saved but the thought has crossed my mind.  Regardless, his inaction and silence on Jessica's rape far outweighs whatever rumors Courtney started and her stubbornness to come clean in my opinion.

I've got Bryce at 1 , Marcus at 2, Justin at 3 and then everyone else.  For me every other action or inaction could be recovered from.  But sexual assault is a step up in evil and far more damaging then dealing with an undeserved reputation.  

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2 hours ago, MV007 said:

I feel like Justin's shitty home life is getting him off the hook on these rankings.  I don't believe its because he's a good looking bad boy who needs to be saved but the thought has crossed my mind.  Regardless, his inaction and silence on Jessica's rape far outweighs whatever rumors Courtney started and her stubbornness to come clean in my opinion.

For me, it's not about letting Justin off the hook. He's a shitty person who has done a whole lot of bad things and he definitely sucks. What Justin did in keeping silent, just like Hannah did initially instead of talking to Jessica about it later, is not right. I think what separates him from Courtney for ME is the aftermath and how each of them dealt with everything. Even though Justin's a righteous asshole, he was shown to be affected by the tapes, by what happened with Jessica, and with the Bryce thing, on top of dealing with the shittiest home life. He doesn't get points for coming clean after, because that was a combination of the tapes, Clay, and Jessica pushing him to be honest. 

As to why my list has Justin fourth or fifth, instead of Justin being 2nd or 3rd, I just really didn't like Courtney from the first episode, when she was being fake nice to Clay. Even before knowing the whole story there, Clay's confused face said it all, that she was on those tapes and she was pretending to be a good person. I think, throughout the season, we just saw more nastiness coming from her, until this episode, when she actively defended Bryce to everyone else who believed otherwise or who were on the fence. So I think factoring both what they did to Hannah and how it was dealt with afterwards is important too. They provided more depth to why Justin was an asshole while they didn't get much into Courtney's motivations (they only touched on it briefly), and I do think that makes all the difference. They could have not dealt with Justin's home life and he would absolutely be low on the list. Because sometimes, not everyone's born an asshole and will just be an asshole for the fun of it. Sometimes, people grow up in asshole homes and that's how they turn into assholes. 

I tend to roll my eyes at these types of shows manipulating me into feeling sorry for the villains. However, this show managed to do it with not just Justin, but several of the kids....except for Bryce. Courtney has some sympathy from me, but that's about it. Whatever does happen to Justin, it's clear that he won't be getting off easy because they are showing that he IS in the wrong and that he is an asshole. People aren't answering his calls, Jessica's pissed at him, and he has nobody to turn to. That's more tough to say about someone like Bryce, who will probably get away with his two rapes, even with Clay's taped confession. And for people like Courtney and Marcus, who don't seem to realize what they did was wrong, we don't know what will transpire if the tapes do get out. 

Also, yes, Justin stayed silent from the moment it happened. But I also think it's important to note that everyone else who listened to the tapes stayed silent too and didn't try to help Jessica. And with Courtney making excuses for Bryce, it really does put her on a similar level to Justin's silence. Not the same level, because Justin's actions were worse, but on a similar level of disgust. 

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My biggest fear is that this gets a second season and he and Jessica eventually reconcile.  

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For me, it has to do with whether the person took responsibility for their actions or not. Sheri did, Alan did and, in the end, Jessica did. And, IMO, I feel like we saw change in those characters and hopefully they'll do better in the future.

Bryce, Courtney and Marcus, not so much. They all dug in their heels and continued to perpetuate the behavior that was wrong. I don't have sympathy for that, myself.

Justin and Tyler lay somewhere in the middle for me. Tyler is a creepy stalker, but I think he realized he was wrong to have invaded Hannah's privacy. However, I don't think we saw enough change in him for him to actually not do this to another girl. I don't think he learned anything from the experience other than other kids are dicks. Justin, did at least take responsibility to a certain extent, but he still was making excuses at the end. I understand what he was going through, but I felt like he was running away from his responsibility in the end instead of taking it on.

I don't have rankings for their crappy behavior, only rankings for whether I think there is hope for them as human beings or not. I have great hope for Sheri, Alan and Jessica, but feel like Bryce is a total lost cause. I think Courtney and Marcus could still become better people with a whole hellava lot more maturity, but I'm not confident they will. Not sure with Justin and Tyler though. They seem like train wrecks waiting to happen.

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On 4/21/2017 at 8:58 PM, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense. And it helped a lot. 

I was thinking the same thing. It reminded me of Veronica's hair being shorter in the present day story line in Veronica Mars season 1.

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What a disturbing episode. More disturbing is that I remembered as I was watching this episode that I discovered this show because my friend's 12 year old daughter recommended it. 

Edited by Soobs
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On 4/23/2017 at 2:07 PM, Happytobehere said:

In the thread for episode 11, I listed Courtney right behind Bryce for being the absolute worst, followed by Marcus.  All three of them are awful, and while  she clearly is not a Bryce, in many ways she shows herself to be the worst in the room at all times, and given the levels of suck of these characters, that's truly saying something. Like you, I find her to be monsterous levels of awful.

The coming out excuse holds no water for me because she gleefully lied about Hannah being gay, outed her, added additional lying slander to the mix and continued laughing and talking about Hannah to deflect fro her ish, so , no, I feel no sympathy for the Woe is me, my life might be hard if the world found out I'm gay, even though I would still have the love and support of my gay dads. So F' Courtney she ranks right below Bryce as being a worthless, self-serving, vicious PoS.

Yes. What makes me loathe Courtney is exactly what you said -- she spread nasty rumors about Hannah to deflect attention from herself, and to protect herself. I said in a previous thread that it would be one thing if she had just said nothing, but she chose to tell lies, and added to the perception about Hannah's reputation. That was bad enough, but she did it after Hannah had confided in her and told her that the rumors about her and Justin weren't true. And even worse, it was clear all through the series that any distress she was feeling was only because she was afraid of what people would think of her if they found out what she'd done, not because she felt any shred of remorse. Ugh. Horrible, horrible, nasty little bitch.

On 4/24/2017 at 10:41 AM, Lady Calypso said:

For me, it's not about letting Justin off the hook. He's a shitty person who has done a whole lot of bad things and he definitely sucks. What Justin did in keeping silent, just like Hannah did initially instead of talking to Jessica about it later, is not right. I think what separates him from Courtney for ME is the aftermath and how each of them dealt with everything. Even though Justin's a righteous asshole, he was shown to be affected by the tapes, by what happened with Jessica, and with the Bryce thing, on top of dealing with the shittiest home life. He doesn't get points for coming clean after, because that was a combination of the tapes, Clay, and Jessica pushing him to be honest. 

I think there's potential for Justin to redeem himself, because I think he's realized how the things he did, as well as the things he didn't do, contributed to everything that happened to Hannah and Jessica. The tapes were definitely the catalyst for that, and if Hannah hadn't made them, there's a good chance he would have continued living his life as a clueless d-bag. But the tapes, Clay, and Jessica basically held up a mirror to his face and made him confront his actions and his in-actions. 

When Jessica was so upset with him for defending Bryce -- and I totally understood why she thought that's what he was doing, because on the surface that's what it sounded like -- I didn't think that's what he was doing. I thought it was more that he was trying to explain why he was in denial about what Bryce did. He's got a shit home life, with a mom who either cares about her boyfriend more than she cares about him, or is so weak and spineless that she doesn't know how to stand up for him. Said boyfriend is a scumbag abusive drug dealer who at least once has assaulted him. But he's got his good buddy Bryce, who's given him a place to stay when he needs it, whose family has helped him out by buying him what he needs for school and sports, and in general kind of taken him under their wing. So no matter how bad things are at home, he's got a refuge. Then he finds out that the person providing that refuge is a sociopath and a sexual predator. I think he minimized it, and tried to downplay it, not just because he was ashamed of not stopping Bryce, or at least not trying harder, but also because by facing it would mean that he really was all alone, with nowhere to turn. It doesn't excuse his actions, by any means, but it does explain why he didn't snap out of it and let Bryce get away with what he'd done.

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Wasn't Justin the one who actually suggested killing Clay and making it look like suicide?  I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere.

I am finding this show very though provoking and really appreciate reading all the thoughts and opinions on it here.  Just about to watch the last one.

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14 hours ago, Nozycat said:

Wasn't Justin the one who actually suggested killing Clay and making it look like suicide?

Yes, he did suggest killing him (though I don't think he used those words--I think it was something like "end him"). He was clearly feeling desperate, and I don't know whether he would have actually done it. But the fact that he considered such extreme action is bad enough.

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On 4/21/2017 at 8:58 PM, scribe95 said:

So I decided Clay's head injury was specifically so we could automatically know what was past vs. present tense. And it helped a lot. 

I actually got REALLY confused during one episode because I thought he had the cut on his forehead for 6 months lol  

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It was hard to watch, and at that point, I wasn't sure how I feel about all I see. Justin is kinda getting away with everything, and he has no inner restrictions at all. But the worst thing w/ such people is when they got really scared. It's the moment when all the crazy stuff begins. 

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I admit that I felt let down by Clay's tape. I thought there was going to be some sort of horrible act of betrayal the way Tony kept going on about it. Turns out all he did was...get out when she said to, instead of reading her mind and staying to comfort her. Isn't that the kind of "no means yes" thinking that leads to big trouble in other situations? But I did feel sad about "Why didn't you say this when I was alive?"

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On 4/9/2017 at 0:26 PM, Racj82 said:

There is a special place in hell for the character of Bryce or anyone like him in the real. 

hehe

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Bryce is really the devil. please someone tell me he didn't get away with it. I hope the season ends with him in jail or someone takes him out so next season's mystery would be who shoot him.

 

With the exception of Bryce, I never felt any of this kids were irredeemable, I don't even blame most of them for Hannah. I know a lot of people hated Courtney, but i understood how scared she was and felt she still needed redemption, but in this episode, I couldn't stand her. she is almost irredeemable to me now and I hate her with passion, yes even more than i dislike Marcus. this episode was really messed up.
 

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Binge watching and I’m up to this episode...I think I’ll be up all night even though it’s so hard to watch! I think they have done a very good job depicting this tragic topic. And it’s so so very sad.  

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The show is very good. Suicide is a very complex topic. Brian is a huge scoundrel, but Dustin !!! How could he allow his girlfriend to be raped? He's a moral freak.

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What a collection of rotten human beings, those high school kids. I would list as exceptions Tony, who seemed to be the only one with a sense of remorse and who really didn't do anything wrong or immoral. Clay was just a putz who was so blinded by love that he couldn't think straight and Zach was just a doofus...guilty of being dumb as a rock. I would consider the rest of the kids evil, rotten bastards. 

The adults were even worse, amazingly out of touch and oblivious to everything going on. The sleazy principal was a political hack only interested in covering his ass. All the parents were living in a fantasy world/bubble. That must have been similar to the Columbine shooters' parents who had no clue what their sons were doing. How sad. Mr. Porter was completely out to lunch and had no business being a counselor. He was way in over his head doing that job. What a cesspool for someone troubled like Hannah to have to function, yet she had her faults too.

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Revised the series twice, and I can say that the series can be divided into two parts. 1-10 series: it is very tedious and it's not clear at all, because of what Hannah so much falls into depression, because the problems (if they can be called problems at all) with which she faces are overcome by a lot of teenagers ..

11-13 series is very much the opposite, too impressive and well, no match with the first excruciatingly boring series, so the big plus of the series is that it ended greatly and even more than fulfilled expectations, and this is not for all soap operas to do - more often series on the contrary under the end completely lose (I will not even talk about the semantic load) its juice!

Heroes are simple guys, without any strong and heavy stories behind their shoulders, life dramas and tragedies, so it's pointless to talk about an "excellent" acting game. plausibly played the role, but there is still nothing to play. Unless the role of Mom Hannah - in this role really need to get used to, because my mother is suffering most of all, and the actress did it!

The tracks in the series are not bad, the work of the operator and the entire crew is also. Of course, there was nothing VAAAU, no unusual and steep shots mixed with correctly selected music, too - very simple and usually, well, but primitive, rather because the creators of "this kin" wanted the audience to pay more attention to the "very intricate" scenario .

About the most important thing ..

In general, the idea is very interesting, with these cassettes, the dead girl and finally the perpetrators of suicide. Rather, the moral of this fable is such that from your insulting word in someone's address (or jokes) can go a chain of sad, sad events. Today you will review the victim, say softly, dissolute - and tomorrow it will begin to paw, later it can reach cruel mockery, and the terrible brand of "loneliness", because with this and no one else wants to be friends!

But I see it a little differently. Hanna - brought up, at first glance, intelligent, I can later say proud and educated girl. Well, how such a beautiful girl could not stand up for herself in the first series and then ...

All the characters are good, but Hannah herself .. this is some kind of horror .. a very unlikely character in terms of character. on an equal place throws insults, breaks off on others not on business, and where it is necessary to tell the truth and everything as is, so that they do not blame it for falsehood, it is silent. and even when people used force (I will not spoil) - she too is silent! In general, the girl brought herself a girl, and even the fact that she was just as weak as an amoeba ..

If you take all but Hanna herself, then 8 out of 10

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I finally got around to watch the show, and I Friggin love it. The extended coffeehouse scene with Marcus, Tyler, Courtney, Ryan, Zach and Alex was so well done. That scene would have been chopped into little pieces on network tv. Also, Alex listing everyone's misdeeds reminded me of my favourite ever line from Friends from Monica. In a box!

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I think this was the episode where Clay really let Hannah down.  With 20/20 hindsight, he should perhaps have stayed with her at the party, but its somewhat to fault him for obeying her clearly expressed wishes.  He also should have talked to her when she approached him and he accused her of making everything about her.  But at that point, Jeff's death and Clay's hurt and confusion over being rejected at the party were still very fresh.

However, as I understand it, Hannah picked up her check from the Crestmont about three weeks after Jessica's party.  During that encounter, Clay was very cold towards her, treating her, at best, as a casual business associate.  Both actors were very good in the scene--Clay's indifference and Hannah's wish to engage him and disappointment when he gave her nothing back were both very clear.  Go back and look at how fast she spun around when he called her back.  It had to be crushing for her discover he only wanted to tell her to return her uniform.

At that point, I think Hannah was fairly desperate to find someone who cared for her enough to put themselves out for her.  I don't think she needed any grand profession of love from Clay, but she did need to know he cared and would stand by her,  Instead, she got nothing but indifference.  I think that if she had believed Clay cared about her, she might have called him after the scene with her parents rather than wondering over to Bryce's or, if not, might have called him after the rape.

In the second season Zack said that shame burns.  I think that if Clay ever looks back on this conversation, he should feel a good bit of shame that burns.  His treatment of Hannah was far short of what she had the right to expect from a friend, much less from someone who professed to love her  

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On 16.4.2017 at 3:32 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

From a practical point of view, convicting Bryce of rape would be very difficult. There was no physical evidence from either rape because neither girl went to the police to have a rape kit done afterward. Hannah is dead so all Bryce has to say is that it's his word against hers. She can't refute anything he says. Jessica didn't want to admit she'd been raped and even if she did report it, she would have to admit that she was so drunk that she passed out and unfortunately, that would not work in her favor at trial. Keep in mind that I am NOT defending Marcus, Courtney, or any character who wanted to keep the tapes secret. I'm just saying from a logical and legal standpoint, a rape conviction would be VERY unlikely due to the lack of evidence so Marcus and Courtney don't want to ruin their perfect reputations for a crime that would go unpunished/unconvicted. It wasn't so much that they were actively trying to protect Bryce as that they were willing to stay silent in order to save themselves from being outed for what they'd done to Hannah (and being gay, in Courtney's case).

I mean it would be very difficult, but it wouldn't exactly be a he-said-she-said situation. You'd have Jessica's and Justin's testimony and Hannah's dying decleration, which is admissable in court.

 

On 20.6.2018 at 4:17 AM, 1775rik said:

However, as I understand it, Hannah picked up her check from the Crestmont about three weeks after Jessica's party.  During that encounter, Clay was very cold towards her, treating her, at best, as a casual business associate.  Both actors were very good in the scene--Clay's indifference and Hannah's wish to engage him and disappointment when he gave her nothing back were both very clear.  Go back and look at how fast she spun around when he called her back.  It had to be crushing for her discover he only wanted to tell her to return her uniform.

I don't think he was cold. I think he reverted back to his usual scared/cautious self. He thought he had somehow done something wrong that night and then he also lost his best friend. He was clearly hurting himself and didn't understand. Three weeks isn't a long time.

Edited by Miles

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