Season 1 Talk

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

And then we get Justin getting choked out by his moms drug dealer boyfriend, and kicked out of his house by the asshole and his mom, who seems too strung out to actually care much about him. The earlier scene between Jess and Justin was also really sad. Jess is so heartbroken knowing that she was not only raped, but raped by someone she thought was her friend, and her boyfriend lied about it, and is making excuses for the rapist, and Justin just sounds pathetic, trying to list all the things Bryce and his family have done for him and how much he "owes" him. I wonder if the show was making a parallel between Justin being unwilling/unable to help Jess when she needed it, and siding with the abuser, with Justin's mom being unwilling/unable to help him when he needed it, and siding with the abuser?  

I just rewatched the scene, and man is it brutal to watch. His mom completely abandons him by not fighting for her own son. She watches him get violently choked out by her boyfriend, and it seems like that situation has happened more than once in his life. There's a moment after he's choked where he's standing at the wall, holding his throat and calling out to his mom but she has very little concern in her eyes as she walks back into her bedroom with the guy. She seems afraid of her asshole boyfriend, but clearly chooses him over her son. It's rather sad that the woman has very little control and won't do anything to change for the sake of her own family. 

I don't know if the show was making a direct parallel but I think it definitely makes sense as to why Justin is clinging on to anything good in his life, or anything he perceives as good. He doesn't want to lose everything, but he's been spiraling since Jessica's rape. 

[tennisgurl]

From what we saw, it feels like Justin's moms boyfriend choking or beating him up seemed to be pretty common, with the only really different thing being that he was kicked out in a more permanent way. Of course, he might end up back there anyway, where else is he going to go now? I remember in an earlier episode his coach mentioned that he suspected his moms boyfriends (plural) of abusing him for quite awhile, but I don't remember if the coach mentioned actually doing anything about it. If he did, I guess it didn't accomplish much. But, knowing this school, Justin could walk in with a broken arm, two black eyes, and hand marks all over his neck, and the school would just assume he fell down on some stairs.

His mom seemed like she was actually trying to help for half a second, but it was more like "the neighbors will hear and inconvenience us" and not "your hurting my son you asshole". Maybe she is scared of the guy and doesn't feel like she can help him, but just turning on Justin while he cries for her is cold as hell.

[tennisgurl]

32 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

It was nice that Alex at least answered the door and let him stay, even if it didn't seem like he wanted to. Justin seemed to be quite polite with Alex's father as well. I'm actually rooting for a happy ending with the kid. 

I was surprised he ended up at Alex's house, considering they're usually at each others throats, and even more surprised that Alex let him stay the night. It was really nice of him to help Justin when he was clearly struggling, even though they don't really get along. The scene in the kitchen of Justin wolfing down dinner and waxing on about how delicious it is while Alex was awkwardly telling him not to choke (ouch) was rather cute, considering everything that's going on around it. I do think Alex is a nice kid, even if did something really crappy.

[Kalliste]

I did feel a bit sorry for Zach. It seems like Hannah jumped to a lot of conclusions about a small amount of experience with people. So he did something stupid like steal the compliments... she knew he might be lonely like she was but didn't really consider he was scared of the things she'd written?

I liked that we got to see that it was affecting him more than the others that he was more upset about Hannah than what it could mean for him.

Still finding the show a bit slow but still keeping on.

[DittyDotDot]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, he might end up back there anyway, where else is he going to go now?

I got the impression he was planning to leave town. Jessica told him her only wish was never to see him again and I think he was planning on trying to give that to her.

[Paloma]

One thing that's not clear (well, one of many) is where Clay is in the chain of people who are meant to listen to the tapes. Obviously at least a few other people (Tony, Jessica, Alex, maybe Justin and one or more of his friends) have already heard them. Since the show is focusing on Clay, is he the last one who needs to hear them? I'm not sure if the order of who listens matters, but it doesn't seem like Hannah intended it to be random.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Seriously, Clay, you really need to be more careful when you're riding your bike! You are driving into parked cars now.

Marcus's El Nino costume was hilarious! But his attitude SUCKS. Remember last week when I started listing the different guys who suck? I'm adding Marcus to my list. What happened to Hannah wasn't different fro what happens to every girl at every high school so somehow that makes it okay for various guys at school to (1) send pictures of her to everyone in school (2) lie about having sex with her (3) put her name on a list (4) call her a crazy bitch (5) grab her ass? But somehow making tapes explaining what assholes other people were to her is WORSE than what happened to her and the tapes mean that she just wanted attention? STFU, Marcus.

Tyler is the worst stalker ever. He didn't turn his camera on silent when he was taking pictures of Hannah? That's like Stalker 101. The scene of him showing his pictures to the newspaper editor reminded me of the scene in Heathers where they're talking about the yearbook tribute to Heather #1. And when he said that Hannah was different from the other girls because she was real, I was reminded of when Brian Krakow and Jordan Catalano discussed loving Angela during English class through a Shakespeare sonnet ("She's not just a fantasy. She's got, like, flaws. She's real.").

Now that we're getting more scenes with the adults, I have to give the adult actors some praise. I am used to seeing them as other characters so it's been surprising to see Addison Montgomery, usually so polished and professional, looking like a vulnerable mess, or Vaughn Du Clark, evil douchebag extraordinaire, being a responsible principal who's trying to do the right thing. And I always think of Brian d'Arcy James as the musical theater guy so it's been interesting to see him in a dramatic non-singing role.

I remember when I watched My So-Called Life, the scenes with the parents usually bored me so I wonder how current teenagers feel about the scenes with the various parents and adults on this show. Unfortunately, I think they're doing a realistic job showing the way Hannah's death has been tearing her parents apart. Hannah's poor mom is so desperate to understand why her daughter committed suicide that she is asking anyone who she thinks ever talked to Hannah to talk to her. I really feel for her.

I really thought that with all the modern technology available that Courtney and Hannah would just set up a motion activated night camera outside her window. You can get one for pretty cheap at Cost Co (and then just return it within 30 days!).

I wasn't at all surprised that Tyler said he was in love with Hannah (while admitting in the same breath that he didn't know her at all). But what a DICK. First you stalk Hannah and then after she catches you stalking her, you have the fucking audacity to ask if she wants to hang out with you? Talk about fucking clueless. Yes, you're allowed to skulk around the hallways at school and take pictures there, but hiding outside of her house and taking pictures of her in her bedroom? Don't try to kid yourself, you creepy little fucker. You were a pervy stalker. And when she had the nerve not to want to hang out with the person who took away her sense of safety, the person who made her feel paranoid inside her own home, your reaction is to go nuclear and send a picture of her making out with another girl? Yeah, you really loved her. Tyler is definitely on the list of jackass boys at this school.

But for the record, Hannah, Tyler, and everyone else needs to learn to close their blinds/curtains sometimes. I'm not doing any victim blaming here. I'm just saying that if your window doesn't face a brick wall, consider taking away a creepy stalker's option. And I say that as someone who once lived in a place where my bedroom window was right across from the dining room window of a family with three boys. I made sure to close the curtains every time I got dressed or changed. It's just common sense, people!

At least now we have confirmation that Tony has the second set of tapes.

Edited April 10, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Guest]

Can someone who finished it say if the pace picks up?  I can't imagine 10 more hours of what the last 3 have been.  Clay dragging his heels and being freaked out, high schoolers bullying and Hannah being quippy... I don't think I can do 10 more if something doesn't change.  

[ElectricBoogaloo]

36 minutes ago, Paloma said:

One thing that's not clear (well, one of many) is where Clay is in the chain of people who are meant to listen to the tapes. Obviously at least a few other people (Tony, Jessica, Alex, maybe Justin and one or more of his friends) have already heard them. Since the show is focusing on Clay, is he the last one who needs to hear them? I'm not sure if the order of who listens matters, but it doesn't seem like Hannah intended it to be random.

Ha, I know, right? As each episode goes on, it seems like EVERYONE in school has heard these tapes except Clay! I was wondering how each person knew who the next person in line for the tapes would be. Obviously it wasn't written on anything in the box so maybe she says the list at the end of the last tape? But I agree that considering how much thought Hannah put into making the tapes, there's no way that the order of recipients is random. There must be a reason why they're in a certain order.

Edited April 10, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[DittyDotDot]

15 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Can someone who finished it say if the pace picks up?  I can't imagine 10 more hours of what the last 3 have been.  Clay dragging his heels and being freaked out, high schoolers bullying and Hannah being quippy... I don't think I can do 10 more if something doesn't change.  

Uh, just in case:

Spoiler

It does and it doesn't. Things get bigger and there's more stuff going on, but it still takes Clay a while to listen. I will also say the first couple episodes almost lull you into a false sense of security that when I was done and looked back on it, the pacing and structure not only made sense, but I thought was brilliant. 

 

47 minutes ago, Paloma said:

One thing that's not clear (well, one of many) is where Clay is in the chain of people who are meant to listen to the tapes. Obviously at least a few other people (Tony, Jessica, Alex, maybe Justin and one or more of his friends) have already heard them. Since the show is focusing on Clay, is he the last one who needs to hear them? I'm not sure if the order of who listens matters, but it doesn't seem like Hannah intended it to be random.

I will only say that it will become clearer. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[absnow54]

And then again, of course Tony also gives a copy of the tapes to Hannah's parents, so in the end the whole show negates the idea of giving power back to Jessica, because the male characters end up doing what they think is right and Jessica has to be alright with the consequences of what the male characters decided.

I think you have a valid argument, but Tony didn't give Hannah's parents the tapes until after Clay talked with Jess, and part of that conversation was that Tony would get rid of the backups if Jessica wanted them to. So I don't think Tony would have given Hannah's parents the tapes if Jessica had told Clay to destroy them. Then again, she later denies knowing the tapes exist in her deposition, so it feels like releasing the tapes to the proper authorities was a bit premature. I agree that Clay should have left the tapes with Jess to distribute on her own terms.

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

I think you have a valid argument, but Tony didn't give Hannah's parents the tapes until after Clay talked with Jess, and part of that conversation was that Tony would get rid of the backups if Jessica wanted them to. So I don't think Tony would have given Hannah's parents the tapes if Jessica had told Clay to destroy them. Then again, she later denies knowing the tapes exist in her deposition, so it feels like releasing the tapes to the proper authorities was a bit premature. I agree that Clay should have left the tapes with Jess to distribute on her own terms.

I thought Jessica didn't want the tapes or the responsibility of distributing them? I'm not so sure Jessica cared what Clay did with them, only cared that they not be destroyed. I think she trusted Clay would do something with them that would both honor and respect what was on them.

Edited April 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[truthaboutluv]

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I still think however he should have actually left the tapes with Jessica rather than give them to the next person. With Hannah dead, she would be the most affected by releasing the tapes and giving them to the next person. It should have been her decision to pass them on to the guidance counsellor.

The thing is though, Jessica herself passed the tapes along. Jessica was only third on the list if memory serves. So she knew there were at least ten other people who were going to hear them. And she didn't destroy them. Of course, she likely didn't do that because of Hannah's not so subtle threat at the start of the tapes that if people didn't do as was asked and basically listen and pass the tapes to the next person, other copies existed that would go public.

So as another poster pointed out, rather than this being an indictment on Clay and a male taking some girl's power, you can argue that Hannah is the one who did that to Jessica. The Jessica situation is one reason many people did not like Hannah. She watched Jessica get raped and while it's understandable she was in shock and too scared to do something in the moment, she never says anything to Jessica in the aftermath. Maybe Jessica would not have believed her but Hannah never even gave her a chance. And then she later decides to share what happened to Jessica on tapes that multiple people would hear. And yes, she didn't say Jessica's name but all the people who listened to the tapes were able to quickly figure out who it was. And then she demands that the tapes be passed on. That was a really shitty and asshole thing to do.

So I can't really agree on Clay taking Jessica's power from her when while admittedly pushy, he kept asking Jessica if she was going to let Bryce get away with what he did and essentially trying to convince her to do something about it. In the end, when he does leave the decision up to her, he expressly asks her if she wants him to destroy the tapes because he would. I don't see that as taking her power but instead fully leaving it up to her because yes, with Hannah dead, she's the most traumatized and victimized on the tapes. Jessica tells him she doesn't care what he does but then expressly tells him not to burn the tapes. So he later gets Bryce to at least own up to what he did to Hannah and then passes the tapes to the last person and leaves it at that. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Seriously. I think all that Hannah's learning one by one is that every single person at her high school is a grade A dick who should be avoided and not trusted.

No one should have to come out of the closet before they're ready, but that doesn't mean you get to LIE about someone else to direct attention away from yourself. What Courtney did to Hannah was just plain mean. I don't care how scared Courtney was. Not only did she compound the rumor about Justin at the playground (after Hannah already told her that none of it was true) saying that Hannah went down on him but then she threw in that Hannah was into girls and wanted to have a threeway with Laura. I mean, seriously, Courtney. She deliberately started rumors that she knew to be completely false in every way about someone who had only been nice to her so she can fuck right off.

I wish Clay's mom would invite me over for breakfast.

Clay's shower talk at the beginning of the episode reminded me of Anya's meltdown after Buffy's mom died.

I love how Justin et al are acting like Clay taking Courtney to Hannah's grave was the meanest thing a person could do, despite the fact that the people clutching their pearls are the ones who treated Hannah like shit. Obviously it's okay to lie about having sex with her, slut shame her, lie about her, etc. but heaven forbid you take someone to her grave. That's just over the line!

I noticed in the meeting with the principal and Clay's mom that the principal said there are two dead people, so I wonder who the other person is. I'm also curious as to what Jessica thinks Hannah lied about on the tapes. I know, I know, I will find out sooner or later (me: sooner, Clay: later).

[Lady Calypso]

4 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

But you know, this is also an interesting discussion, because if you're a guy who finds about something like this, it's an interesting question of what you do with it, because you want to protect the girls who this happened to and be respectful to them, but you also want to make sure that something like that doesn't happen again and for Clay to just ignore the fact that Bryce raped these two girls would have been wrong as well. So the show kind of raises the question of a man as an ally, like how can you be there for girls who have suffered through all of that. But I think it's a problem that the show becomes more about Clay's anger about what happened and less about him as an ally to Jessica and Hannah. And I think that's a valid point. 

It is a very interesting discussion, indeed. I do think this is very important to discuss, as well. As an ally, male or female, how do you support the victims? How do you help them while also seeking justice for their horrors? Can you even seek justice for them? 

What I did like is that Clay did ask Jessica what she wanted to do with the tapes. It may not feel like much because the pacing of this last episode was a little rushed to conclude this story, but it was a very important scene that is groundbreaking. In all of my many years of watching television and film, there has hardly ever been a scene like this before. I think it could have been expanded on, but the point is that Clay did give the power to Jessica in the end. He allowed her to choose what would be done about the tapes, giving her all the information. She chose to not destroy them. Maybe there should have been an extension on this scene where Jessica tells Clay that he can pass them along, but either way, the fact that they had a scene of Clay/Jessica talking about the tapes is huge. Clay got angry for many episodes and yes, he became more of a crusader. But once he got through all the tapes, he had a clearer sense of what to do. He eventually came to the right choice. And that has been part of Clay's journey, to realize that he's not the only one affected and that not everyone on these tapes are the bad guys. He was so worried about himself being the problem that led Hannah to kill herself that he took it out on everyone else. 

As for Jessica, there's a reason why she told Clay not to destroy them. He and Tony would have destroyed them if Jessica asked them to, but she didn't. Maybe they could have waited until Jessica knew exactly what she wanted to do with the knowledge of her rape being passed on, but I do think that she was coming to the conclusion that the exposure of the tapes would lead to her own healing. For her deposition, I think she was just scared to talk about it with the lawyers and police, especially since I think she had no idea that the tapes were now becoming public knowledge. But the end of this finale does have her telling her dad, which means that it'll come out now. I can't see her dad not doing something about it. So maybe there should have been a little bit more context to Jessica's story here. I don't dispute that her story needed a little more fleshing out here. I think they were trying to go subtle with the look Clay/Jess shared at the end of their scene, like we're supposed to take away that she was giving him permission to do what he wanted with them. 

Also, I just realized that Clay got Bryce to admit his raping of Hannah, so there's justice for her, but he didn't bring up Jessica on tape 14. In that sense, he didn't take away power from Jessica either. He could have also gotten Bryce's confession on his rape of Jessica, but he didn't. Again it may not seem like much, but I think it was a smart choice to make on the show's part. Since Hannah never mentioned Jessica by name on Justin's second tape, it does give Jessica more power since she never technically has to come forward and out herself as the person on that particular tape. 

[truthaboutluv]

5 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, I just realized that Clay got Bryce to admit his raping of Hannah, so there's justice for her, but he didn't bring up Jessica on tape 14. In that sense, he didn't take away power from Jessica either.

This exactly. I meant to mention that and I do think it's very significant. The only thing Clay got Bryce to admit, was what he did to Hannah who is dead and therefore, no longer there to fight for herself and get justice for herself. I guess you can view her tapes in that way but that's debatable since on one hand it seemed less about her righting the wrong that was done to her and more a last "fuck you" to the people she felt helped contribute to her decision to take her life. But he never asks Bryce about Jessica and instead, he goes to Jessica and asks her what she wanted to do. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

11 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

Also, I just realized that Clay got Bryce to admit his raping of Hannah, so there's justice for her, but he didn't bring up Jessica on tape 14. In that sense, he didn't take away power from Jessica either. He could have also gotten Bryce's confession on his rape of Jessica, but he didn't. Again it may not seem like much, but I think it was a smart choice to make on the show's part. Since Hannah never mentioned Jessica by name on Justin's second tape, it does give Jessica more power since she never technically has to come forward and out herself as the person on that particular tape. 

Yeah, I saw it as Clay trying to help Bryce's would-be next victim by getting him to admit to Hannah's rape--and getting some justice for Hannah since she could no longer seek it for herself--but purposely leaving Jessica out of it so Jessica could decide if she wanted to come forward on her own. 

11 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

What I did like is that Clay did ask Jessica what she wanted to do with the tapes. It may not feel like much because the pacing of this last episode was a little rushed to conclude this story, but it was a very important scene that is groundbreaking. In all of my many years of watching television and film, there has hardly ever been a scene like this before.

I know. So often you see someone telling a victim they must come forward and report the guy so no one else will get hurt. But, here, it was more about what Jessica needed for herself.

Edited April 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[MV007]

On 4/9/2017 at 6:56 AM, Chewy101 said:

It may have just been that the right people didn't notice?

I don't know.  Without getting too spoilery, I would think Clay would be the person she would want to notice the most.

[MV007]

I really liked this episode.  I am loving being able to see so much more of the Clay/Hannah relationship as compared to the book.  Its really bittersweet.  Ok, that may be an understatement.  It's heartbreaking but I love their chemistry.

I was also dying for Clay to tell his mom who Hannah was to him.  I also hope that plot line doesn't get dropped.  Clay is carrying a lot right now but watching his mother dig up dirt on Hannah and help the school would be over doing it.  She needs to know the truth.

[MV007]

Tyler's lack of self-awareness was a little jarring.  He really doesn't seem to understand how creepy he is.  

[heatherchandler]

On 4/2/2017 at 3:53 PM, QQQQ said:

I swear he's channeling Brian Krakow.

You mean BRAIN Krakow?  

[Glory]

On 4/8/2017 at 1:25 PM, marceline said:

Gen-Xer here. Do high schools actually have honor boards? I know that there's a lot of creative license being taken as there always is with TV's depictions of teenage life but is the "honor board" a real thing?

Yes. At least they did... oh, 10 years ago or so when my little SIL was still in high school. They called it "Peer Jury" and she was a member. 

[scowl]

I refuse to watch any show in which an actor telegraphs to the audience that he or she is lying by stuttering or displaying nervous behavior while the other actors are too stupid to notice it.

I know the character is lying. You showed me what the character is lying about. You don't need to treat me like an idiot.

[Readalot]

On April 9, 2017 at 6:32 PM, Paloma said:

Even though we are probably polar opposites of the target audience, my husband and I (in our late 60s) are fans of other shows with much younger target audiences and the concept sounded interesting, so we decided to try this one. The first episode did not really draw us in, partly because we were having trouble keeping track of characters and partly because of the unrealistic dialogue coming out of most of the teens' mouths. Today we decided to watch two more episodes before giving up on the series, and now I think we are hooked. It's interesting to see the causes and effects of the suicide from various standpoints (including adults), and it is a depressing and realistic reminder of how teenagers can be both cruel and sensitive. But the drawn-out structure is still kind of annoying (although Clay does explain that he can only listen in bits and pieces because of anxiety, which makes sense in light of his apparent history), the timeline is still confusing, and I'm still trying to figure out how and when Jessica ended up with Justin. Also, I hope we don't have to wait for the last episode to get a good explanation for Tony's involvement.  

Yes I'm on my second watch and still can't figure out when justin and Jessica hook up!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

When Hannah initially ran into Jessica at the dance, Hannah asked if Jessica had a big date and Jessica said she was supposed to and then she looked around, which seemed to be saying that her date stood her up. Then Alex approached her and based on their conversation, I assumed that he was not her date. Later we saw her dancing with Justin, but that seemed to be a spur of the moment thing. So who was her winter formal date supposed to be?

[NorthstarATL]

I feel as if I HAVE to finish the show because I've gone this far, but this episode irritated me more than any others previously, possibly because they overused the trope of faking us out with Clay's behavior. If Hannah is an unreliable narrator, which is probably true, then so too is Clay, and we experience the unreliability firsthand, not through tapes. I hated the keying, because even crap cars have alarms! I'm sure they did back when the book was written as well. Also, maybe because I am a bike rider, but I SO wanted Clay to retort that Zach, et al, had STOLEN his bike! At least Zach can drive a keyed car.

  But the best/worst part for me was the teacher of "communications", or whatever that class is. At least Clay called her out on not following up on Hannah's note, but do they really DO that "compliment bag" thing in school? How is that NOT a bathroom wall in another form? How can an adult not realize the potential for abuse that is being set up?

  Also, I believe this or the previous episode was the first to describe how Hannah died from a reliable source (Clay's mom), so I now have to look at things differently because I assumed this was a revenge ploy by Hannah like another book that I will not mention so as not to spoil.

[poppy-]

My friends are all watching this-- women in their 40s / 50s.  Parents of almost teens.  I know it is based a YA novel, but from the perspective of a parent, it is a scary show so far.  (Have only seen episode 1).    Saw the selfie coming.  Saw the bike injury coming (but how dumb is Clay that he didn't realize the car stalking him was his ONE friend with a growly old car?)  Saw the photo sharing coming, naturally.   Saw Clay finally losing his patience at the worst possible moment coming.  It seems to be a show about kids who aren't bad people doing wretched things.

[Kalliste]

22 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I noticed in the meeting with the principal and Clay's mom that the principal said there are two dead people, so I wonder who the other person is.

Me too.. but it seemed to be shrugged off. I was trying to think of whether it had been mentioned previously that 2 people were dead.

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Hannah initially ran into Jessica at the dance, Hannah asked if Jessica had a big date and Jessica said she was supposed to and then she looked around, which seemed to be saying that her date stood her up. Then Alex approached her and based on their conversation, I assumed that he was not her date. Later we saw her dancing with Justin, but that seemed to be a spur of the moment thing. So who was her winter formal date supposed to be?

I got the impression it was meant to be Alex but they had broken up before it

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, Readalot said:

Yes I'm on my second watch and still can't figure out when justin and Jessica hook up!

The timeline is hard to figure out due to the non-linear structure of both the present and the past. Justin and Jessica isn't revealed until later, but

Spoiler

I think it was during the summer break. At the "back to school" party where Jessica is raped, Hannah sees Jessica and Justin together when she first gets there and asked her when that happened and also told her to be careful.

[DittyDotDot]

3 minutes ago, Kalliste said:

I got the impression it was meant to be Alex but they had broken up before it

That was my impression too.

[stagmania]

On 4/7/2017 at 6:31 PM, absnow54 said:

I was dubious about this show getting a second season, and I get that Tom Everett Scott isn't nearly as famous as, I for some reason, think he is, but I doubt they cast him as Tyler's dad in a non-speaking role for a 0.25 second appearance without plans for a season 2. I'm not crazy about the idea. If it were only the fallout of the tapes being released, I'd be on board, but I'm not ready for a school shooting. With the body count this school is racking up, it'd be a shock if any of them made it to graduation.

You're right, TES is too famous for a two second cameo, so I think that was a little Easter egg planting the idea for another season. And there has been a ton of press in the last week with cast and creators saying they're hopeful for a second season.

On 4/9/2017 at 1:30 PM, Lady Calypso said:

But with a second season, that unique idea becomes lost and it becomes just another teen drama. I don't know how they'll recapture the magic of this season, I really don't. The actors will be the only ones to salvage it. 

Yeah, I think trying to turn this into a regular show with multiple seasons is a mistake. Everything that was unique about this will be washed away.

On 4/9/2017 at 11:14 PM, tennisgurl said:

I wonder if season two would start with the aftermath of the shooting at the school, and we see bits and pieces of it (maybe talking heads in the media, and interviews with minor characters) and spend the rest of the show leading up to the shooting, so we have to wait to see who dies and what exactly happens. It could have flash forwards to people trying to figure out why Tyler did what he did. I don't know if they would be good, or in bad taste, or anything, but it would at least follow the theme.

I don't know that it would be a school shooting, necessarily. That final scene with Tyler in the dark room looked like he had assembled a hit list, so my assumption was that they were setting up more of a suspense plot where he'd try to pick off the tape kids one by one. I can't imagine them actually killing these characters, though. And I really have no interest in another story about an aggrieved white male lashing out with violence. That would truly be taking a show with an important underrepresented perspective and turning it into something very common.

22 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

So as another poster pointed out, rather than this being an indictment on Clay and a male taking some girl's power, you can argue that Hannah is the one who did that to Jessica. The Jessica situation is one reason many people did not like Hannah. She watched Jessica get raped and while it's understandable she was in shock and too scared to do something in the moment, she never says anything to Jessica in the aftermath. Maybe Jessica would not have believed her but Hannah never even gave her a chance. And then she later decides to share what happened to Jessica on tapes that multiple people would hear. And yes, she didn't say Jessica's name but all the people who listened to the tapes were able to quickly figure out who it was. And then she demands that the tapes be passed on. That was a really shitty and asshole thing to do.

This has been bothering me, too. I don't understand why Hannah did this to Jessica, or why she put Clay on those tapes. These are cruel choices that didn't track for me, and I don't think the show did a good job of helping us understand why she made them.

[MV007]

42 minutes ago, Kalliste said:

Me too.. but it seemed to be shrugged off. I was trying to think of whether it had been mentioned previously that 2 people were dead.

I don't think it had been mentioned before and if it had it certainly wasn't conspicuous.  

[truthaboutluv]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

This has been bothering me, too. I don't understand why Hannah did this to Jessica, or why she put Clay on those tapes. These are cruel choices that didn't track for me, and I don't think the show did a good job of helping us understand why she made them.

Well to be fair, the book didn't do a good job explaining that either. I think this was a case of the show runners did the best they could with the material they had. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

This has been bothering me, too. I don't understand why Hannah did this to Jessica, or why she put Clay on those tapes. These are cruel choices that didn't track for me, and I don't think the show did a good job of helping us understand why she made them.

I'm not sure exactly why she put Clay on the tapes other than maybe she just wanted Clay to know it wasn't his fault and maybe she just wanted someone she cared about to hear the tapes and know the truth?

Jessica's rape though made perfect sense to me. She blamed herself for being so passive in Jessica's rape and then when she tried to do the right thing by calling in the accident with the sign it still turned out badly. I think this was the point where she decided everything she touched turned to crap. To me, that tape was Hannah's tape. It was the things she didn't think she could live with that she had done.

However, by the time Hannah made the tapes, she was pretty messed up and obviously not thinking clearly, so I'm not sure all her decisions are supposed to really make rational sense. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[truthaboutluv]

Yeah, for what it's worth, she does say on the tape that discusses Jessica's rape that they (meaning her and Justin) both failed Jessica. Obviously there are some things about the story that doesn't make sense or isn't the most logical but that's entertainment for you and that's the premise the author wanted to go with. Because honestly, Hannah could have achieved the same thing by simply mailing each person their own tape so they didn't have to hear about others but would know what part they played in her story. But that wouldn't make for great suspense so there you go. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

My high school did something similar to the dollar valentine match making too. When I was a freshman, I got matched with the hot senior who was a TA for my biology class so of course inside I was thinking YES, we were totally meant to be together! Outwardly, I didn't say a word to him. I went to a really large high school (1000 people in my freshman class) so sometimes people got matched with someone they'd never even heard of. I don't think we provided any contact info though so the only way to actually make something happen with one of your matches was to walk up to them and say hi.

Every episode, the list of douchebags at this school gets longer. I'm not at all surprised by Marcus though. He had that Nice Guy vibe from the beginning for me, even in the earlier episodes when he was just talking to Clay. Interesting that Zach came back after Marcus left the diner. So is that Zach's move? Picking up Marcus's leftovers after he inevitably treats them like shit?

It's sad to me how brazen people are about being assholes. Marcus went from charming and flirty to grabbing Hannah's leg in two seconds. The sense of entitlement these boys have is so gross. Yeah, showing up an hour late gives you the right to grope a girl in public. And as usual, everything ends with slut shaming. As if he hadn't rattled her enough by grabbing her (even after she told him to stop) he then announced to the entire restaurant that he thought she was easy. Guys like this make me so mad. And look at the not surprising reaction: Hannah wonders what she did.

Poor Clay. Apparently everyone in the school has already listened to the tapes and they all want him to pass them on without listening to them. If I were Clay, that would just motivate me to listen to them immediately to find out exactly what all these lying manipulative assholes were trying to keep me from hearing. I don't know why Tony doesn't just strap him down and play the tapes. There are seven sides left and we know Sheri and Clay are two of the people on the tapes. That leaves five other people. Bryce isn't one of them since Justin et al said he doesn't know about the tapes. I'm guessing at least one of the other jocks. Ooh or maybe Ryan. The fact that he was going to publish people's dollar valentine answers tells me he isn't above being a dick. I can't remember who was included in the group text from the previous episode.

Jeff still seems like he isn't a jerk (yet). I like that he's always trying to get Clay to be more social. The scene in the library where Jeff tried to help Clay with his dollar valentine answers reminded me of Jordan Catalano trying to teach Brian Krakow how to get a girl's phone number (also during peer tutoring!).

Tony's boyfriend Brad is cute but I'm guessing he's older (based on the phrase "high school stuff"). I can't blame him for not wanting to deal with high school drama.

I really felt for the parents again in this episode. Hannah's mom is trying to hold it together while still trying to understand how she didn't know what was going on with her. Meanwhile Clay's mom is also trying to figure out what's happening with her kid. Have these parents already forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and not share everything with their parents?

[stagmania]

49 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not sure exactly why she put Clay on the tapes other than maybe she just wanted Clay to know it wasn't his fault and maybe she just wanted someone she cared about to hear the tapes and know the truth?

Her wanting him to understand and hear her truth makes perfect sense to me; what doesn't track is the way she did it. Why make him think she blamed him? Why not tell him upfront that her reason for including him was different from the others? It comes back to the structure of the framing device and the need to create suspense about what was going to be on Clay's tape. They chose to undermine character to achieve it. It always bugs me when the writerly manipulations intrude into the story like that.

I agree that she wasn't thinking all that clearly in the end, and she kind of made Jessica's rape all about her own guilt. Shitty, but easy enough to understand and forgive given her state of mind.

[DittyDotDot]

21 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Her wanting him to understand and hear her truth makes perfect sense to me; what doesn't track is the way she did it. Why make him think she blamed him? Why not tell him upfront that her reason for including him was different from the others? It comes back to the structure of the framing device and the need to create suspense about what was going to be on Clay's tape. They chose to undermine character to achieve it. It always bugs me when the writerly manipulations intrude into the story like that.

I agree that she wasn't thinking all that clearly in the end, and she kind of made Jessica's rape all about her own guilt. Shitty, but easy enough to understand and forgive given her state of mind.

Sure, it's the framing device, but I guess I didn't feel it undermined her character, but actually made sense for her character within the framing device because she wasn't in a clear frame of mind when making these decisions. Hannah wasn't always right and, like with almost every teenager on the planet, much of what she did doesn't necessarily make a lot of sense from the outside. But, to her, it made perfect sense.

I guess I'm just not one of those viewers who needs every decision to be sympathetic? If all of Hannah's decisions were correct and reasonable, she wouldn't have committed suicide or spent days recounting all the reasons why she was committing suicide. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[stagmania]

6 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I guess I'm just not one of those viewers who needs every decision to be sympathetic? If all of Hannah's decisions were correct and reasonable, she wouldn't have committed suicide or spent days recounting all the reasons why she was committing suicide. 

Except the show clearly wanted us to view her sympathetically. I don't need Hannah to be completely likable, but I'd like to understand her motivations and decisions without having to do a bunch of fanwanking. 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, stagmania said:

Her wanting him to understand and hear her truth makes perfect sense to me; what doesn't track is the way she did it. Why make him think she blamed him? Why not tell him upfront that her reason for including him was different from the others? It comes back to the structure of the framing device and the need to create suspense about what was going to be on Clay's tape. They chose to undermine character to achieve it. It always bugs me when the writerly manipulations intrude into the story like that.

I agree that she wasn't thinking all that clearly in the end, and she kind of made Jessica's rape all about her own guilt. Shitty, but easy enough to understand and forgive given her state of mind.

Yeah, I think that's an issue with this type of storytelling device. The show needed Clay to hear the tapes but not to be complicit with Hannah's death. Unfortunately, getting from Point A to B is harder in this situation because the reasons for him not finding out until the end of his tape are blurred. Hannah does look cruel for not telling Clay upfront that his tape is not blaming him. This was for TV drama, and I've accepted that. 

[DittyDotDot]

8 minutes ago, stagmania said:

Except the show clearly wanted us to view her sympathetically.

Does that mean that everything Hannah does needs to be sympathetic or just that we see her sympathetic because of what she's going through? I don't think the show wanted us to make a saint out of Hannah, but wanted us to see her as a real and complex teenager--who sometimes aren't all that likable.

At the end of the day, IMO, Hannah wasn't really any different than most the other kids on the tapes. She could be cruel and stupid as much as she could be smart and empathetic. With a slightly different twist of fate, she could've been Jessica or Courtney or Sherri or Alex or... .

I guess all I was saying was, while I didn't always like Hannah or agree with what she was doing, I didn't ever stop sympathizing with what she was going through. Which, I think, is what the show wanted from the audience. Apparently that didn't work for everyone, but it did for this viewer.

[RainbowBrite]

19 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Does that mean that everything Hannah does needs to be sympathetic or just that we see her sympathetic because of what she's going through? I don't think the show wanted us to make a saint out of Hannah, but wanted us to see her as a real and complex teenager--who sometimes aren't all that likable.

At the end of the day, IMO, Hannah wasn't really any different than most the other kids on the tapes. She could be cruel and stupid as much as she could be smart and empathetic. With a slightly different twist of fate, she could've been Jessica or Courtney or Sherri or Alex or... .

I guess all I was saying was, while I didn't always like Hannah or agree with what she was doing, I didn't ever stop sympathizing with what she was going through. Which, I think, is what the show wanted from the audience. Apparently that didn't work for everyone, but it did for this viewer.

I did find that she was really the only character (with the exception of Clay) who did not do something heinous to someone else during the flashbacks. That being said,  Hannah and Clay were complicit in some of the terrible things that happened to others; Hannah, for her own reasons, was unable to stop Jessica's rape and Clay, on many occasions, stood by while Hannah was mistreated. I did not lose sympathy for Hannah or Clay because they are flawed humans, as we all are. I'd find it less believable if Hannah was presented as perfect. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by RainbowBrite
so many commas!!

[absnow54]

I did find that she was really the only character (with the exception of Clay) who did not do something heinous to someone else during the flashbacks. That being said, Hannah and Clay were complicit in some of the terrible things that happened to others; Hannah, for her own reasons, was unable to stop Jessica's rape and Clay, on many occasions, stood by while Hannah was mistreated.

Clay also spread that picture of Tyler and keyed Zach's car which, I thought, was on par with most of the acts on the list of 13 reasons. I do wonder if maybe we'd see a less favorable side of Hannah if the dual POV wasn't from Hannah and a person who was in love with Hannah. I'd actually really like to see the story from Jessica's POV to see how she felt their friendship dissolved.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, absnow54 said:

Clay also spread that picture of Tyler and keyed Zach's car which, I thought, was on par with most of the acts on the list of 13 reasons. I do wonder if maybe we'd see a less favorable side of Hannah if the dual POV wasn't from Hannah and a person who was in love with Hannah. I'd actually really like to see the story from Jessica's POV to see how she felt their friendship dissolved.

That could be an interesting way to do more seasons.

[Lady Calypso]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Interesting that Zach came back after Marcus left the diner. So is that Zach's move? Picking up Marcus's leftovers after he inevitably treats them like shit?

I don't know; he seemed awfully confused by Marcus' move, as if he had zero idea that he had a douchebag move like that.

[Lady Calypso]

34 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

I did find that she was really the only character (with the exception of Clay) who did not do something heinous to someone else during the flashbacks. That being said,  Hannah and Clay were complicit in some of the terrible things that happened to others; Hannah, for her own reasons, was unable to stop Jessica's rape and Clay, on many occasions, stood by while Hannah was mistreated. I did not lose sympathy for Hannah or Clay because they are flawed humans, as we all are. I'd find it less believable if Hannah was presented as perfect. 

You know, I might disagree with this. Even though I understand her intentions and why she's done the things that she did in the flashbacks, it doesn't mean that she didn't do anything heinous herself. Not to the extent of Bryce, Justin, Jessica, and company, but she certainly wasn't someone who was the nicest person ever. For example, as much as I understood her reaction toward Zach asking her out, she downright humiliated him in the cafeteria. I think it's possible to be sympathetic and understanding of her actions while still calling her out. I think Jessica expressing her disbelief that Hannah wouldn't tell her if something had happened to her goes to show that Hannah's made some pretty big mistakes. Jessica was right; Hannah could have come to her and told her in the couple of weeks that led to her death. She could have done something and not put it in a tape for others to hear. Especially since Hannah wanted the tapes passed on, she knew that everyone else would hear about Jessica's rape and she allowed for it to happen. 

As for Clay, it's already been mentioned that he spread that photo of Tyler for pure revenge, and he keyed Zach's car which almost got both of them in trouble, so he's done heinous things too. Again, not to the extent that the other characters have, but still. 

[RainbowBrite]

12 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

You know, I might disagree with this. Even though I understand her intentions and why she's done the things that she did in the flashbacks, it doesn't mean that she didn't do anything heinous herself. Not to the extent of Bryce, Justin, Jessica, and company, but she certainly wasn't someone who was the nicest person ever. For example, as much as I understood her reaction toward Zach asking her out, she downright humiliated him in the cafeteria. I think it's possible to be sympathetic and understanding of her actions while still calling her out. I think Jessica expressing her disbelief that Hannah wouldn't tell her if something had happened to her goes to show that Hannah's made some pretty big mistakes. Jessica was right; Hannah could have come to her and told her in the couple of weeks that led to her death. She could have done something and not put it in a tape for others to hear. Especially since Hannah wanted the tapes passed on, she knew that everyone else would hear about Jessica's rape and she allowed for it to happen. 

As for Clay, it's already been mentioned that he spread that photo of Tyler for pure revenge, and he keyed Zach's car which almost got both of them in trouble, so he's done heinous things too. Again, not to the extent that the other characters have, but still. 

You're right that there are much better ways Hannah could have handled telling Jessica what really happened to her, and the way she did communicate it was really insensitive. 

With Clay, that was done after Hannah's suicide and in reaction to what he heard on the tapes. What I had meant in my previous post was that Clay didn't do anything heinous in the flashbacks. 

[laprin]

Just finished and will need time to process. My immediate reaction is that I hope the book is better.
So much of this series seemed preachy and while trying to take a stand against being judgemental, manages to be judgemental. I'm not saying all of these very flawed characters were not worthy of being confronted with their actions and more (Bryce), but Hannah absolutely sat in judgment of each one of them and proclaimed them a contributer to her suicide. She gave every sin equal weight, every slight was intentional. 

[RainbowBrite]

1 hour ago, laprin said:

Just finished and will need time to process. My immediate reaction is that I hope the book is better.
So much of this series seemed preachy and while trying to take a stand against being judgemental, manages to be judgemental. I'm not saying all of these very flawed characters were not worthy of being confronted with their actions and more (Bryce), but Hannah absolutely sat in judgment of each one of them and proclaimed them a contributer to her suicide. She gave every sin equal weight, every slight was intentional. 

I agree. Teenagers are hormone-filled monsters, learning how to navigate in the world. They will all do something hurtful at some point. Ryan published her anonymous poem and a tape was dedicated to him; is that really equal to how Marcus or Bryce treated her? I understand that the show is making a point that it is a series of potentially inconsequential events that snowballed, but the way Hannah told her story pins (what I feel is) too much blame on certain parties (Ryan). 

Edited April 11, 2017 by RainbowBrite

[MV007]

6 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I really felt for the parents again in this episode. Hannah's mom is trying to hold it together while still trying to understand how she didn't know what was going on with her. Meanwhile Clay's mom is also trying to figure out what's happening with her kid. Have these parents already forgotten what it was like to be a teenager and not share everything with their parents?

I don't know how the actors playing Hannah's parents do these parts.  I watch their scenes and I can't understand what their going through.  Like, I can't imagine being relatively normal parents of what seems like a nice young woman who kills herself.  How would they feel?  What would they be thinking?  Every time I try to think of answers to those questions I can't fathom the answers.

Edited April 11, 2017 by MV007