Season 1 Talk

[Zima]

Zach is disgusting. He's one of those "nice guys" (tm) who will be all nice to you until you tell them you're not interested. Then they start going off on you, calling you a bitch, a slut, etc. No sympathy for him. 

[Readalot]

Ok I've watched this twice. What was on the note that Jessica showed Hannah, where Jessica slapped her? Is it the Best Ass/Worst Ass paper?

Why did Justin go to the office and not go back to school? did I miss a scene twice? 

[Lady Calypso]

41 minutes ago, Readalot said:

Ok I've watched this twice. What was on the note that Jessica showed Hannah, where Jessica slapped her? Is it the Best Ass/Worst Ass paper?

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was. Jessica jumped to the conclusion that Alex/Hannah must have been a thing if he put her name in the column that was insulting her (and Alex might have done this to hurt Jessica intentionally, or else he could have used any other girl's name), and she put the blame on Hannah.

[Zima]

Well, that was hard to watch...

[tongueincheek]

On 4/4/2017 at 10:19 PM, tennisgurl said:

Not that I think its a failure in the writing, its just that Hannah isn't a perfect sainted victim. She can be not super nice too, even if her reasons are more understandable (after her experiences with those guys, I don't blame her for being defensive. It just seems like Zach might have been for real), and her memories aren't perfect. In her head, Zach coldly tossed the note, and in reality, he was just unable to deal with the intense emotions she was unloading onto him. It makes you wonder if other things she has said in the tapes are totally true. 

I've finished the series, and this is one of the things I found really gratifying about the show. Internal/external/mental/circumstantial problems in one's life does not a saint make -- hardships don't absolve people of their characteristic flaws or mistakes. All of the characters, namely the young cast, lived in this gray area that felt truly honest to the emotional experience of feeling and behaving as a teenager. I felt sympathy and empathy to every degree for nearly all of the characters. No matter how despicable I found their actions, I completely understood the motivation/s behind them. 

[Kalliste]

I read the book and started watching this because a friend recommended it. Plus imdb rates it highly. I can't say I was overly impressed with the pilot but then many pilots aren't excellent. 

I'm just hoping the rest of the episodes aren't quite so slow.

I thought it was strange with the cassettes too but they still set it in modern times. Although in the end it became clear why Tony made a point of showing he had a cassette player (2 even).

Am I the only one that thought the worst thing about this episode was the girls taking selfies in front of the memorial for Hannah. After they did it I said "ugh, is this what teenaged girls are like now?" and I hope they're not.

[absnow54]

Geez, the moment she put the money bag on top of the Jeep I was like "I CANNOT TAKE THIS ANYMORE!" and then the rest was just stumbling uncontrollably down hill. I don't know how I'm going to watch the next one.

[MV007]

I really liked this first episode and really liked Clay/Hannah.  I thought the actors did a nice job with them.

I do have one small critique and I'm a little unsure whether I can discuss it or not.  But I was a little taken aback when they showed the flashback to Clay complimenting Hannah on her shorter hair.  Having just read the book, that was something that resonated with me when she told everyone listening that they never noticed or at least they never mentioned her chopping off her hair.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, MV007 said:

I do have one small critique and I'm a little unsure whether I can discuss it or not.  But I was a little taken aback when they showed the flashback to Clay complimenting Hannah on her shorter hair.  Having just read the book, that was something that resonated with me when she told everyone listening that they never noticed or at least they never mentioned her chopping off her hair.

Was it a flashback or a revisionist daydream? I thought Clay was imagining a way he could've been a better friend to Hannah now that he realizes she was struggling.

Either way though, Hannah is telling the truth as she saw it on the tapes, but that's not necessarily the whole truth. She may have thought no one noticed her hair because they didn't mention anything, but that doesn't' mean no one noticed it. 

[Inquiry]

Okay, I have a lot to say about this episode (loved it), but I just wanted to point out one little observation: when Hannah's mother found Hannah's diagram, the only other thing in the box was the mixtape Tony gave her that began with the song Clay/Hannah danced to at the school. That absolutely killed me. Their doomed romance was so well done, especially in this episode. Just another thing I loved: despite Hannah utterly and explicitly absolving him of any guilt, instead of relief, Clay's immediate reaction is a tearful breakdown that he could've and should've done more. That spoke volumes, I thought.    

Edited April 7, 2017 by Inquiry

[absnow54]

Was it a flashback or a revisionist daydream? I thought Clay was imagining a way he could've been a better friend to Hannah now that he realizes she was struggling.

Yeah, I'd have to re-watch that scene to check the lighting, it the coloring is yellowish and warm, it was the past, and if it's blue and unsaturated then it's the present, but I suspect that scene was a moment of "things I could have said" for Clay.

[MV007]

Maybe, I'll understand more as I go along in the series.  I didn't think there were scenes that were Clay imagining what could've been or could've been said.  

[absnow54]

I was dubious about this show getting a second season, and I get that Tom Everett Scott isn't nearly as famous as, I for some reason, think he is, but I doubt they cast him as Tyler's dad in a non-speaking role for a 0.25 second appearance without plans for a season 2. I'm not crazy about the idea. If it were only the fallout of the tapes being released, I'd be on board, but I'm not ready for a school shooting. With the body count this school is racking up, it'd be a shock if any of them made it to graduation.

The suicide scene was really hard to watch. In fact, I spent the entire duration with my face shoved in a pillow, but even then, her guttural cries were enough to make my stomach churn. I've read a lot of commentary on whether or not it was appropriate to show the suicide. I remember for Degrassi's suicide episode a few years ago, they went through pains not to show it or even imply what happened, and instead only focused on the aftermath. I get the criticism of showing it here, but for me it was such a horrible and lonely scene that I can't imagine it being glamorized

[Kalliste]

hmm that's an interesting idea. Although he did say something like "I'm sorry about how I reacted last night" as though he had noticed and didn't like it? But it would be cool if it was actually him wishing he'd dealt with the situation another way.

[Kalliste]

After watching this I'm not really sure why Jessica is on the list. I assume we see more later but my impression of this one is that she doesn't really deserve to be. Sure, she hurt her by not telling her she was in a relationship with Alex but that just doesn't seem like a good enough reason for me.

On 4/7/2017 at 2:48 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I only know him from playing Jack's son in Lost many years ago.  I kind of like him.  He has such a deep voice, and did even back then.  

This is what I know him from too. I can't help noticing Jack-isms from him and thinking "wow, I see why they cast him as Jack's son back then!". I actually quite like him in this although he really needs to watch where he's going otherwise I imagine the show ends with him dead because he got hit by a car.

The funny thing is, I've read this book, although it was years ago, and I barely remember any of it other than the overall premise.

[Kalliste]

I really thought Alex was done for when he went into the pool. And that would be the next flap of the butterfly wings.

A lot of people have said they get a Veronica Mars vibe from this show which I'm not really seeing. Is Clay meant to be Veronica and Hannah is Lily? That being said, I get major Weevil vibes from Tony. Especially with the reveal at the end of this episode. He is the bad boy with a heart.

[kelslamu]

I was surprised that Bryce couldn't understand Justin having a problem with what he did.  Perhaps it's because he gave Justin so much that he thought he deserved it?  Unpopular opinion coming now.  I did not like Hannah.  It seemed the girl over dramatized some things.  When she and Courtney were in the hallway alone and Courtney said how scared she was to tell the truth about the picture I couldn't believe Hannah didn't say more.   It was just them and Hannah could have stood up for herself more.  I just don't believe I've seen any one (Hannah) person not say anything or deny anything like that.   If she hadn't been kind of snarky with Clay at first, hadn't been a little social, or we'd seen some other kind of reason prior then maybe I wouldn't have reacted to her like I did.  That said, I do understand everyone reacts differently to bullying.  I've seen it and had it happen.   The way the character was portrayed (imo) versus the reactions to some situations really took me out of it.  I know this is unpopular. lol  I didn't read the book.

Edited to say:  My above opinion is not to be taken as my opinion on ANYTHING or anyone in real life.  I'm merely commenting on the show itself.

Edited April 8, 2017 by kelslamu

[tennisgurl]

I laughed super hard at the awkward "you know I'm gay right?" conversation between Tony and Clay. Clay just had the most confused expression on his face, even as Tony told him that he was sure that everyone at school already knew. I appreciate the show throwing in a few comedic scenes, in between the never ending high school misery.

At this point, Hannah is better off just making friends with a volleyball with a face on it. With the exception of Clay, every other person she hangs out with inevitably betrays her. I'm also continuously pissed off at this stupid school and its idiot administration. There's spending so much time trying to cover their asses for not noticing a student giving clear warning signs of a break down, they clearly haven't noticed multiple students are giving clear signs of a break down!

[marceline]

Gen-Xer here. Do high schools actually have honor boards? I know that there's a lot of creative license being taken as there always is with TV's depictions of teenage life but is the "honor board" a real thing?

[MVFrostsMyPie]

On 4/6/2017 at 7:22 AM, DittyDotDot said:

I will say that there is bigger things to come and Hannah does start to isolate herself more, but I think that's kinda the point of the whole show. No one commits suicide over just one thing, but the accumulation of many little minor things. Alone, any of these things seem rather silly, but piled on top of each other they start to weigh someone down.

And there is a reason why most people don't understand why someone would kill themselves in hindsight. It always seems so small potatoes in comparison to such a finite decision as suicide. But, to that person in that moment, it feels to them like it's so big they can't see anything else. What the show does most, IMO, is remind us that what we might perceive as nothing effected someone else profoundly.

Yep, exactly. I've seen the same criticism about Hannah in many places on the interwebs. Many many people miss the point, and say this isn't believable because no one would kill themselves over the stuff that happened to Hannah, but people fail to realize that 1) Hannah's perspective is different than theirs and 2) people cope with situations differently- what one person can brush off easily (or more easily avoid feeling anything about by trying to sweep it under a rug instead of confronting it) is something another person can't deal with as well based on who they are and how they view the world. 

I think one think I liked about the book/show is that for me, as a suicide attempt survivor (over 10 years ago), it felt exactly like that. As a person now with coping mechanisms and a healthier outlook on life's shitty moments, I will look back at my own depression and subsequent attempt (I only had a 20% chance of living I later found out and still struggle with the health consequences all these years later), and it's more difficult for me to really piece together how I ended up making that choice, but at the time, every little thing that happened to me, while seemingly inconsequential on its own, snowballed until I finally lost it. People always want to know or want to place blame on one "big thing" that happened to make people desperate enough to want to end it all, but it doesn't usually work like that. 

I will say though, that I shouldn't have binge watched this in the same week of finding out yet another friend killed themselves, let's just say there was lots of ugly crying going on.

[tennisgurl]

I really do wonder why Hannah never told Jessica the truth while Hannah was still alive. I can understand her being too shocked and horrified to do anything during the actual rape, but why never say anything afterwards? She and Jessica seemed to be on decent, if not friendly terms, and she seems to have some memory of the rape now that its being discussed, maybe if Hannah had said something earlier, Brice wouldn't have gotten away with it.

I really liked seeing Clay and Hannah hanging out at the party and being normal teenagers. If they had gotten more of that, maybe things would have turned out differently.

[sara416]

Regarding the cassette tape thing, Jay Asher addresses this in the Q and A at the end of the book. He basically says that he could have gone with some modern technology, but it would be outdated very quickly. If he used technology that was already outdated, it wouldn't date the story as much. Basically, the cassettes are old school and they know it, which makes it easier to be done at any time: 2007, 2011, 2017, whatever. 

[Racj82]

There is a special place in hell for the character of Bryce or anyone like him in the real. 

[dd21dd21]

17 hours ago, kelslamu said:

I was surprised that Bryce couldn't understand Justin having a problem with what he did.  Perhaps it's because he gave Justin so much that he thought he deserved it?  Unpopular opinion coming now.  I did not like Hannah.  It seemed the girl over dramatized some things.  When she and Courtney were in the hallway alone and Courtney said how scared she was to tell the truth about the picture I couldn't believe Hannah didn't say more.   It was just them and Hannah could have stood up for herself more.  I just don't believe I've seen any one (Hannah) person not say anything or deny anything like that.   If she hadn't been kind of snarky with Clay at first, hadn't been a little social, or we'd seen some other kind of reason prior then maybe I wouldn't have reacted to her like I did.  That said, I do understand everyone reacts differently to bullying.  I've seen it and had it happen.   The way the character was portrayed (imo) versus the reactions to some situations really took me out of it.  I know this is unpopular. lol  I didn't read the book.

Edited to say:  My above opinion is not to be taken as my opinion on ANYTHING or anyone in real life.  I'm merely commenting on the show itself.

I went back and forth on Hannah

But I totally feel for what she went through thou, luckily I made it out of HS before social media took off, so who knows how I would have reacted.

what I didnt like was making a tape for Clay...........like why would you do that to somebody you supposedly cared about. I wouldn't even have been shocked if he killed himself after listening to his tape.

[Kalliste]

Poor Clay. Does anyone actually like him or are they all just using him? Now I don't know what to think about Sherrie. She was so lovely but is it just fake? Side note, she's beautiful! 

And another week of guys being not cool. "I thought you were easy" half the time I can't tell if Marcus is a nice guy or just a douche pretending to be nice like the rest of them. And what was the deal with the other guy coming back... I forget his name. 

I'm really enjoying Clay. He does always have a 'deer in the headlights' look about him though.

[Chewy101]

On 4/7/2017 at 8:58 AM, MV007 said:

I do have one small critique and I'm a little unsure whether I can discuss it or not.  But I was a little taken aback when they showed the flashback to Clay complimenting Hannah on her shorter hair.  Having just read the book, that was something that resonated with me when she told everyone listening that they never noticed or at least they never mentioned her chopping off her hair.

It may have just been that the right people didn't notice?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who recognized the bridge! And I'm glad I'm not the only reason who was yelling, "CLAY! Pay attention when you're riding your bike!"

I think that despite the cassette tapes and smart phones, the story itself is very true to the teenage experience. There's a new girl in town, a guy she likes who seems perfectly nice on his own but betrays her because he can't resist letting his friends think that they had sex, a guy who likes her but is in the friend zone. It's actually kind of depressing to see that teenage boys STILL do shit like refuse to deny that they had sex. Ugh.

I didn't mind that she recorded her messages on tape. I kind of liked that she knew it would be a pain in the ass for everyone to find a way to listen to them and that she was deliberately choosing a way that wasn't easy. The main thing that bothered me about the tape thing was Clay stealing Tony's Walkman. If he had just asked, Tony would have said yes so stealing was unnecessary and rude.

At least we know that Kat and Clay weren't kidding about Bryce being a frat boy Darth Vader since he's the one who actually sent the picture that Justin took of Hannah.

Those girls who took selfies in front of Hannah's locker - ugh, really?

[Chewy101]

On 4/7/2017 at 3:53 AM, Kalliste said:

Am I the only one that thought the worst thing about this episode was the girls taking selfies in front of the memorial for Hannah. After they did it I said "ugh, is this what teenaged girls are like now?" and I hope they're not.

Not just teenaged girls. I have 30 year old friends selfie hashtagging with the same level of narcissism.

 

18 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I didn't mind that she recorded her messages on tape. I kind of liked that she knew it would be a pain in the ass for everyone to find a way to listen to them and that she was deliberately choosing a way that wasn't easy. The main thing that bothered me about the tape thing was Clay stealing Tony's Walkman. If he had just asked, Tony would have said yes so stealing was unnecessary and rude.

I'm assuming Tony is the secret friend who will share the tapes with the public if the current listeners don't finish and pass on accordingly? Considering his affinity for old school technology, I can see him helping her record her thoughts this way. Just guessing, though. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Huh. So this show takes place in the future because the attendance sheet they gave to Clay in the office said October 2017.

Re: the Hannah/Jessica/Alex situation - I went through something sort of similar in high school. I had a male friend who went to another school. We used to hang out and then after a while, I introduced him to a female friend from my school. The three of us would hang out on the weekends and after school all the time. Then one day out of the blue I found out that they had been hooking up behind my back and keeping it a secret from me. I actually didn't care that they'd been hooking up but I was incredibly hurt that they had deliberately kept this a secret from me. It made me feel like an idiot on top of realizing I'd been a third wheel without even realizing it. If they had just told me that they liked each other, I would have played matchmaker and then let them be alone!

Jess becoming a cheerleader was the most unbelievable plot point for me because most schools do not have try outs in the middle of the school year. Even schools with totally sucky cheerleaders hold auditions at the end of the previous year so that they can go to camp over the summer. I would have been willing to overlook that minor point if they hadn't because Jessica was shown to be a subpar cheerleader. It would have been a lot more convincing if they had just skipped that little cheer routine before Bryce introduced the players. Afterward, the other girls were doing back handsprings and Jessica could barely do a round off (heh, to be fair, the cheerleader who talked to Clay mentioned that earlier).

The time line was confusing to me. So it's October but basketball season is starting?

One thing that's really starting to annoy me is that Clay kept asking people if he was on the tapes. Dude, there are only seven tapes. If Hannah used 60 minute tapes, that's six and a half hours. If she used 90 minute tapes, that's nine hours and forty five minutes. He could have listened to everything in one night. That's why I was so glad when Tony asked what was taking him so long. HURRY UP, CLAY.

Justin in the pool house was a little too Logan Echolls for me. Tony's leather jacket already reminded me a little of Weevil from Veronica Mars but when Hannah, Jessica, and Alex were talking about remedial math and a bad boy in a leather jacket, I thought ooh what if this is a Lilly Kane secretly sleeping with Weevil thing? Because I'd already planted that seed in my head, it was not surprising when Tony showed up at Hannah's house and hugged her mom.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

49 minutes ago, Chewy101 said:

I'm assuming Tony is the secret friend who will share the tapes with the public if the current listeners don't finish and pass on accordingly? Considering his affinity for old school technology, I can see him helping her record her thoughts this way. Just guessing, though. 

Clay asked Tony if he helped her make the tapes and Tony said no, so I want to believe that Tony wouldn't lie. I guess we'll find out eventually.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Tyler the photographer has been giving me Brian Krakow vibes with his semi-creepy always lingering in the background photo taking. Maybe he will end up having incriminating footage like when Brian accidentally filmed Rayanne and Jordan Catalano having sex.

As usual, the gender double standards appeared again. Hannah gets reprimanded by the teacher for getting out of her seat to throw away the list being passed around the class, but the boy who gets out of his seat to retrieve the list from the trash a few seconds later? Not a word from the teachers.

Ugh, this episode reminded me how terrible guys are. Justin had the nerve to call Hannah a crazy bitch even though she did nothing but kiss him at the playground. Boys are THE WORST. Alex put Jessica on the list because she wouldn't have sex with him. THE WORST. Bryce grabbed Hannah's ass in the liquor store. THE WORST.

Jeffrey's obsession with the word unique cracked me up.

I really hope that in every episode, someone different is going to tell Clay he's a dumbass for not being finished listening to the tapes yet. Loved that Alex said he listened to all of them in one night the first time and then he listened to them all a second time. Get cracking, Clay!

I was cracking up that Clay, who just chugged a 40, was able to bike fast enough to keep up wth Tony who was driving a car.

I also silently laughed at Clay's mom grounding him because being stuck at home for two weeks is exactly what he needs to finish listening to all these tapes!

[tennisgurl]

I swear, this show was created for people who thought The Fault in Our Stars just wasn't depressing enough! Oh Jeff. Of course the one nice jock in this entire school ends up dying a tragic and preventable death right before Hannah dies. I was wondering why we never saw him in the current scenes, and this adds another part of Clays breakdown we have been seeing. Not only is he dealing with Hannah's suicide, but with his anger and sadness about Jeff dying (and finding his body!) followed by the revelation on the tape about what really happened. This also makes his parents look even more clueless. Did they really not know he was friends with Jeff either? The last kid to die violently in this town? "Gee honey, why has Clay been acting so moody lately? Think it could have something to do with finding the bloody corpse of his friend a few months ago?"

What the hell, Tony?!?! Don't say that to him!

I liked the scene with Alex and Clay on the bleachers. And that was before Hannah died, so we know it had nothing to do with the tapes. He was just trying to be nice. Alex might have been a dick with the list and kind of ditching Hannah, but I don't think he's a bad person.

[truthaboutluv]

On April 8, 2017 at 10:04 AM, kelslamu said:

I was surprised that Bryce couldn't understand Justin having a problem with what he did.

Like his so-called ignorance regarding what he really did to Jessica and Hannah, I don't think for a second Bryce didn't understand why Justin had a problem with what he did. And in fact, in the flashback, we saw that Justin came back into the room and tried to get him to stop and he shoved Justin out, telling him to "get the fuck out", before locking the door. Bryce knew exactly what he did in every instance.

It just all went back to his entitlement. And yes, I can absolutely see him believing that with everything he and his family had done for Justin and given to him, what's the big deal with him having sex with Justin's girlfriend while she's passed out drunk and essentially raping her. He knew exactly what he did - that he raped Jessica and knew very well that Justin was bothered by it but also knew Justin would never say anything or do anything about it because he felt indebted to Bryce and his family. 

 

Quote

Unpopular opinion coming now.  I did not like Hannah.  It seemed the girl over dramatized some things.

I wouldn't say I didn't like her but as I wrote in another post, I remember after reading the book, feeling like I didn't fully get why she killed herself. In fact, I sort of didn't remember much about the book at all. I don't know if it was a case of too high expectations and so feeling a bit let down but it just didn't move me or connect with me as much as I expected it to.

For years, every time I would see the book on another list of amazing YA books, I would again feel like, I know I read it and I remember the premise but I actually didn't remember a single thing about it. And that to me made it clear that Hannah as a character did not resonate with me at all because if she had, I would remember the book very well. 

However, I have to say I felt differently after the series. Maybe it's something to do with actually seeing the events unfold and the actress playing Hannah's doing such a good job but I actually came away feeling truly sad for her and heartbroken by her death. She wasn't perfect by any means and I think that's a good thing because as humans, we rarely ever are.

And so yes, I do think she was a little overly dramatic at times, maybe even a little self involved but ultimately, I do think she had some really awful things happen to her and I felt deep empathy for the character. Enough to make me consider reading the book again to see if I may feel differently about it now. 

I will say I agree about her adding Clay to the tapes. It was kind of shitty of her to make him feel like he might have had something to do with her death and even if she essentially said he didn't, he had to get through ten tapes to learn that that was the case. That was kind of an asshole thing to do to someone else. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[Lady Calypso]

5 hours ago, Kalliste said:

And another week of guys being not cool. "I thought you were easy" half the time I can't tell if Marcus is a nice guy or just a douche pretending to be nice like the rest of them. And what was the deal with the other guy coming back... I forget his name. 

I think he's a Nice Guy, where he's nice until the girl he's into doesn't give him what he wants. And I guess, as someone who is on the honour board and is presumably smart, he's used to getting what he wants as he plays it like he's not like "the rest of the jocks". That's my impression, though. The fact that he has this "signature move" where he stands up girls and if they stick around, then he can get into their pants says a lot about his character and how nice he really isn't. 

[marieYOTZ]

I found myself struggling most with how to deal with the counselor. He seemed like a decent guy, and at times during his meeting with Hannah was hitting the right beats, but something about the whole "well if you're not going to tell me who did it your only other option might be to move on" exchange left a bad taste in my mouth.  I can definitely understand why he didn't acknowledge that final convo to anyone after Hannah's death, because what a massive failure of seeing-the-signs. I found myself liking the guy throughout the series, maybe because i like the actor, but that final interaction with Hannah really disturbed me. 

Early on, maybe during the episode where she meets Jessica, she makes a passing comment about it being too bad that the lady counselor left. I did get the vibe that that lady, much as the girls were rolling their eyes at her, would have handled the final meeting witg Hannah with more empathy and alarm. 

I am happy to say that i know my high school guidance counselors would absolutely NOT have let that conversation end the way it did. I hope that most would not. 

[Lady Calypso]

19 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

3.) I don't know if they are actually planning to do a second season or whether the breadcrumbs for new storylines that they left in the finale are only supposed to convey that their lives continue beyond the tapes, but I am not sure if I like the idea of a second season, because in the end it is Hannah's story  and while the other characters are interesting in their own right, I don't feel like it's necessary to continue the show. I certainly would have enjoyed a more definite ending to the show.

Agreed. I think, by introducing the idea of a second season, it does make it less about Hannah and now more of an ensemble. Honestly, I don't think I can watch a second season. I actually find myself loathing the idea of a second season. It won't be as good as this one, even with its own flaws. Hannah can't do anything but make a hallucinatory cameo once in a while, and that would feel awfully cheap. This is Hannah's story, with everyone else as supporting characters. But with a second season, who will the main character be? Clay? Tyler? Jessica? Justin? Alex? Who knows. I just can't see a second season doing well. They really should be leaving it as a mini series, but I'm just waiting for the inevitable renewal. Netflix renews everything, and they left this so open ended that they kind of have to continue now for the viewers who are interested in closure for all other characters. The reason this show--and the book- happen to be successful is the uniqueness in a character telling their story after their death, when we know the outcome but want the reasons as to why. Most don't get a lot of closure, so this story became a way to tell a different side and sympathize for the victim. The show did take it one step further and help viewers sympathize with multiple of the other characters, which is extremely difficult to do (save for Bryce, Marcus, and most of the time Courtney, I sympathized with everyone else for most of the season). 

But with a second season, that unique idea becomes lost and it becomes just another teen drama. I don't know how they'll recapture the magic of this season, I really don't. The actors will be the only ones to salvage it. 

[againstthewind]

I wasn't familiar with the book. The first episode, I was incredibly distracted by the complete selfishness of what Hannah did. There is something so heartbreakingly awful about telling the people you left behind about what they did to drive you to suicide.

Now, I'm on this episode and despite how well done the show is, I'm struggling to  get through it. My high school experience was a breeze compared to Hannah's, but it's been 11 years since I was in it and I'm finding myself on the verge of tears on every scene. People are unspeakably CRUEL sometimes. If I had a teenager, I'd force them to watch.

[tennisgurl]

Oh my heart. If only Hannah and Clay had had awkward teenage sex in Jessica's bedroom instead of Hannah freaking out and telling him to fuck off, so many awful things probably wouldn't have happened. The one time awkward teenaged sex would have actually HELPED anything in high school! Her fantasy about Her and Clay walking down the hall as boyfriend/girlfriend while everyone looks on approvingly was just so tragic. It could have been, Hannah! It really hits onto the whole "everyone has there own stuff, and their the main character in their own life" thing the series has going on. In the show where Clay is the main character, Hannah was this perfect vivacious, tragic dream girl, while in Hannah's world, Clay was her cool, sweet, indie dream guy, especially at this point.

Thank God Justine finally told Jess the truth about what Bryce did, its about damn time. Now I wonder if Jessica's spiraling behavior was partially dealing with the rape, and partially trying to get Justin to admit what happened. I am so conflicted on Justin. He is just SUCH an asshole, especially to Clay, and him not only letting his friend rape his girlfriend, but trying to act like it never happened is unforgivable, BUT his life seems to suck so much, he seems to have no positive role models in his life, and he just seems so miserable behind his cocky jock exterior. Of course, that's kind of my relationship with most of the kids in this show, to differing extents. I want to smack them upside the head, and then give them a hug. Except for Bryce. Fuck that guy.

"Unhelpful Yoda". Heh, I like Tony, but I'm as annoyed with him as Clay sometimes. He is just so damn vague and filled with endless sayings and advice, without actually saying anything other than "Its what Hannah wanted." I get his reasons, but if I was Clay, I would be about ready to jump out of his car too.

I hope the lawsuit wipes this administration the hell out. They wouldn't notice a kid in distress if they were walking the halls in a prom dress covered in pigs blood. They're making the teachers and faculty at Sunnydale High look down right observant.

I actually thought Justin was kind of endearing at Alex's house when he was gushing over the dinner Alex's dad made. I highly doubt his mom or moms boyfriend does much cooking.

Edited April 9, 2017 by tennisgurl

[MVFrostsMyPie]

If only the real-life Bryces could hurry up and get to the hell part where they can deal with eternal "minutes of action".

[MVFrostsMyPie]

On 4/6/2017 at 8:05 AM, heatherchandler said:

I thought I recognized that bridge!  I checked to see where this was filmed, and it was indeed near Vallejo, San Rafael and Sebastopol, CA.  I have family there and I definitely recognized the look.  I have been thinking about moving there myself, and watching this is making me want to even more!  

Yeah I thought I recognized that bridge too. Also the rock climbing scene was at Mt. Diablo, which is just a few minutes away from me. 

I was actually really hoping they would have filmed in San Luis Obispo, since Jay Asher has said the idea for Crestmont was based on SLO (since he lived there while attending (but not actually graduating from) my alma mater, Cal Poly). The Fremont Theater would have been much more visually stunning than the theater they used in the show. Back when I was in college, Lindsay Lohan filmed a total flop of a film (surprise) in SLO and many of us college kids got to be extras in it, so that was fun. I think we were also the only ones who went to see that movie and contributed to the revenue, just to see if we ended up in the film (I'm in one of the downtown scenes after a football game and Lindsay walks right by me. We had to pretend to be having animated conversations without actually making any sounds. Good times. Also she was much shorter than I thought she'd be.)

10 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Those girls who took selfies in front of Hannah's locker - ugh, really?

They're probably also the same types of girls who take selfies at grandma's funeral, or even worse, while visiting Auschwitz. #sosad

Edited April 9, 2017 by MVFrostsMyPie

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Courtney's outfits reminded me of Clueless. It would have been awesome if she busted out an "as if!" every now and then, for my own personal entertainment. 

And Sheri would have been sent home to change if she wore those short dresses she wore all the time (at times I thought she was wearing the same dress but on different days) at the high school I attended.

[truthaboutluv]

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

2.) It's kind of problematic how the stories of Hannah's and Jessica's rapes are not primarily told from their perspectives, but mediated through the tapes and Clay's reaction to the revelation. Thereby it becomes less about what the girls are going through and more about what Clay will do to get justice for the girls, which makes the storyline a lot less powerful, because what Bryce did to them is not Clay's story and it is not really his place to seek justice on behalf of the girls. I mean, I do get the narrative drive behind it to have the "hero" of the show bring forth a resolution and to bring down the villain, but they could have dug deeper into how violated the girls felt and the whole aftermath of what it did to them.

Putting aside that everything, save for stuff happening in the present, was essentially told through the tapes and by that token Hannah's perspective, I disagree that it was less about what the girls were going through and more about Clay getting justice. Hannah killed herself very soon after Bryce raped her, we repeatedly saw Jessica spiraling throughout the series with the drinking, acting out, essentially getting kicked off the cheerleading team, etc. After her rape is revealed by the tapes, the next time we get flashes of it, it's from her recollection, where we see how heartbroken and shaken she is. 

The final episode shows her breaking down and telling her father she has to tell him something, presumably what happened. YMMV but I never got the impression that the writing made Jessica and Hannah's tragedy Clay's story and less about how violated both girls felt. Again, I feel like we saw plenty how violated and traumatized both girls were. Again it doesn't get much worse than Hannah choosing to take her own life. 

Edited April 9, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

On 4/8/2017 at 9:04 AM, kelslamu said:

Unpopular opinion coming now.  I did not like Hannah.  It seemed the girl over dramatized some things.

I think Hannah is a hard character to like, but maybe that's the point? Hannah wasn't perfect she, but she wasn't a bad person--nor were most of the the other kids--and didn't deserve to be treated like she was. I thought they did a good job of saying you don't have to like someone or be their bestest best friend to treat them with common courtesy.

5 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

2.) It's kind of problematic how the stories of Hannah's and Jessica's rapes are not primarily told from their perspectives, but mediated through the tapes and Clay's reaction to the revelation. Thereby it becomes less about what the girls are going through and more about what Clay will do to get justice for the girls, which makes the storyline a lot less powerful, because what Bryce did to them is not Clay's story and it is not really his place to seek justice on behalf of the girls. I mean, I do get the narrative drive behind it to have the "hero" of the show bring forth a resolution and to bring down the villain, but they could have dug deeper into how violated the girls felt and the whole aftermath of what it did to them.  I mean, they dealt with it a little bit, especially with Jessica, but I think they only scratched the surface regarding the inner turmoil the assaults caused for these girls and that's because the story is less focused on them coming to terms with it and more focused on Clay the good guy protagonist.

I thought the story was very focused on the girls and what they were going through. We learn about the rapes through Clay learning about them, but we saw Hannah's rape entirely from her POV. And, the after effects for both girls were shown heavily. In fact, I was pretty sure Jessica had been raped before they revealed it just due to her downward spiraling behavior. 

I thought the way they had Clay ask Jessica what she wanted to do was a really smart way to give Jessica back some control and keep it about Jessica healing not Clay being the hero. 

5 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But with a second season, that unique idea becomes lost and it becomes just another teen drama. I don't know how they'll recapture the magic of this season, I really don't. The actors will be the only ones to salvage it. 

I agree, they made their point very well in one season, I kinda feel like a second might water down their point. Sometimes it's best to just take a bow with a job well done.

[tennisgurl]

So, this was an incredibly depressing episode of television That hot tub scene was absolutely brutal. If nothing else happens by the end of the show, I hope Bryce gets his ass thrown in prison, at the very least. What makes it extra sad was that it was right after Hannah was feeling better and was seemingly fitting in more.

And then we get Justin getting choked out by his moms drug dealer boyfriend, and kicked out of his house by the asshole and his mom, who seems too strung out to actually care much about him. The earlier scene between Jess and Justin was also really sad. Jess is so heartbroken knowing that she was not only raped, but raped by someone she thought was her friend, and her boyfriend lied about it, and is making excuses for the rapist, and Justin just sounds pathetic, trying to list all the things Bryce and his family have done for him and how much he "owes" him. I wonder if the show was making a parallel between Justin being unwilling/unable to help Jess when she needed it, and siding with the abuser, with Justin's mom being unwilling/unable to help him when he needed it, and siding with the abuser?  

Its a sad of affairs for this school when you have cliff hanger where a teenager has a bullet in the head, and it could plausibly be any number of characters who shot themselves.

[Paloma]

Even though we are probably polar opposites of the target audience, my husband and I (in our late 60s) are fans of other shows with much younger target audiences and the concept sounded interesting, so we decided to try this one. The first episode did not really draw us in, partly because we were having trouble keeping track of characters and partly because of the unrealistic dialogue coming out of most of the teens' mouths. Today we decided to watch two more episodes before giving up on the series, and now I think we are hooked. It's interesting to see the causes and effects of the suicide from various standpoints (including adults), and it is a depressing and realistic reminder of how teenagers can be both cruel and sensitive. But the drawn-out structure is still kind of annoying (although Clay does explain that he can only listen in bits and pieces because of anxiety, which makes sense in light of his apparent history), the timeline is still confusing, and I'm still trying to figure out how and when Jessica ended up with Justin. Also, I hope we don't have to wait for the last episode to get a good explanation for Tony's involvement.  

[truthaboutluv]

30 minutes ago, nosleepforme said:

Does he actually give her back control though? He still ends up giving the tapes to Mr. Porter and telling him that he has to decide what he will do with the tapes afterwards. So while he might have decided not to say anything about the tapes when questioned about them, he still puts the decision about the tapes which reveal everything into someone else's hands. 

Mr. Porter was the 13th person the tapes were supposed to go to and therefore the 13th reason why. So Clay essentially just did what all the others before, including Jessica did, and that was, per Hannah's request, pass the tapes to the next person.

He added his tape that included Bryce's confession of what he did to Hannah and yes, left it up to Mr. Porter, not just as the next person on the list but as a guidance counselor, to decide what to do next. 

I understood your point, I just politely disagreed with it. For what it's worth, the book does not have Clay confronting Bryce or adding his own tape or any of that added drama. He listens to the tapes and then hands them to the next person on the list. If I remember correctly it was some girl, not the guidance counselor because he was later on the list. (I just looked it up and the girl was Jenny, who in the series was renamed Sheri, because she’s the one who knocked down the stop sign)

So I guess I can sort of understand the notion of, "making the guy be the hero" argument, especially when it didn't exist in the book. However, one of the most common criticisms I read about 13 Reasons Why is how even after Hannah's death and with the tapes stating clearly what happened to her and even to Jessica, no one really did anything. Everyone just apparently listened to these tapes and just passed it on to the next person, despite clearly hearing that two of their classmates, one of whom had just killed herself, had been raped.

There was a feeling of dissatisfaction by many and I wonder if that was part of why I ended the book feeling kind of, “okay, I guess…” Like there was a sort of apathy around the whole thing in the book. So I think (just speculating here) that may have contributed to the writers wanting to give some sort of hope that Bryce may eventually pay for what he did. We don’t actually see it happen. The series ends with that being one of many things up in the air but there is at least the possibility.

And the series gave a sense that these characters were truly affected by these tapes and not just willy nilly passing them along. Sure they were all still selfishly trying to cover their asses but the added narrative gave perspective to many of them and showed how listening to the tapes truly affected them, like Alex for example. So that’s why I disagree that the show didn’t truly show the girls dealing with their trauma and made their tragedy Clay’s story. Because the series certainly gave more of a voice to Jessica for example, than the book did.

Quote

I personally think that such an experience cuts far deeper than how they actually portrayed it on the show, especially with Hannah. I don't think they portrayed what she went through between assault and suicide all that well. 

YMMV but as someone else noted, Bryce's raping Hannah was really like the straw that broke the camel. The whole series and by that token, all of Hannah's tapes was essentially building up how she got to the point of suicide and showing that sometimes seemingly little things, when combined with other things, become something greater.

By the time the assault happened, Hannah was already fairly broken and as someone noted again, there is a point where you see her hands just drop, like she stopped fighting because she didn't have any fight left. That was the point when she stopped feeling and once she got that numb, the suicide soon followed. So I guess my point is it's not that the show didn't portray enough of her trauma over the assault but that by the time the assault happened, Hannah was already on a suicidal path even though she hadn't made the choice. The assault is what tipped things over the edge.

Edited April 10, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Does he actually give her back control though? He still ends up giving the tapes to Mr. Porter and telling him that he has to decide what he will do with the tapes afterwards. So while he might have decided not to say anything about the tapes when questioned about them, he still puts the decision about the tapes which reveal everything into someone else's hands. 

IMO, yes, it does give her back the control. Jessica told Clay not to burn the tapes. Whatever is done with them now, it was her decision to allow them to exist and allow others to hear what had happened to her.

Edited April 10, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

Secondly, it was also problematic how pushy Clay gets after he heard the tape with what happened to Jessica, his last conversation with her in the last episode might be respectful, but in the episodes before that he is very confrontational with Jessica. In the episode in which we find out about it, there is this scene in the classroom at the beginning where he confronts her with it and is particularly pushy.

Perhaps he was. Actually, I agree that he was. Clay, from what we've seen,  tends to act first on his emotions, rather than through logic. We see it as he confronts each person as he gets to their tapes. We see it as he has a breakdown with the new students. So him initially reacting toward Jessica's rape is very much what I expected of him. He doesn't think about the implications of what Jessica will say, or even how she's feeling. In that moment, since he hasn't heard his tape yet, he's still reeling with anxiety and paranoia and he can't seem to understand why Jessica doesn't tell someone. In his mind, he's also looking at Hannah's suicide as on a similar level: why didn't she just talk to someone? Why didn't she get the help that she needed? Why can't she do the right thing? 

It's only later, once he gets to Bryce's tape and Hannah's rape where he's able to process things better. He's able to calm down and I think that's when he's able to think and be able to see Hannah and Jessica's situations as something more complex, rather than black and white like he's been viewing things. At least, that's how I'm reading the whole situation with Jessica. So, Clay's not perfect and he doesn't know what the right thing to do is until he finishes the tapes. 

So, very problematic, but I actually liked how it played out. I think most people, when they hear about something serious like this, would react in a similar way. I know I have reacted like Clay many times, where I go: "well, why doesn't this person just talk to someone?" But it's not always that simple, and I think Clay eventually did the right thing once he understood. Once he got all of Hannah's story and realized her full reasons, he was able to understand Jessica's situation better. 

1 hour ago, nosleepforme said:

I personally think that such an experience cuts far deeper than how they actually portrayed it on the show, especially with Hannah. I don't think they portrayed what she went through between assault and suicide all that well.  Jessica's downward spiral was portrayed well, but in the end they did spend more time on Clay reacting to it and confronting Bryce than they did on Jessica's and Hannah's inner turmoils after, which is still problematic.

I think they did. They've shown many reasons as to why Hannah was breaking inside bit by bit until Hannah's rape finally tipped her over the edge. From the moment she moved to town, there were plenty of people tearing her apart, whether it was on purpose or accidental. Maybe they weren't all Big Moments like rape, but even the small things can hurt. Justin hurt her twice, as she noted, with the picture floating around, and him not doing anything to help Jessica when she was raped (while Hannah was stuck listening to the whole ordeal). Alex/Jessica abandoned her completely, and Alex started that list that haunted her right up to her death. The fact that she always found a way to go back to that list shows that it affected her. Marcus was a complete ass to her while trying to get into her pants. Tyler was taking pictures of her, totally invading her personal space. Zach stole the notes that kept her smiling. Courtney let people continue to believe that she was a slut, but now a bisexual/lesbian slut. Every time she thought she was getting better, there was another incident that she could never forget. 

Hannah didn't really have any friends at that point. Her and Clay were both too afraid to expose their feelings, so there was always that barrier that refrained Hannah from calling him her friend. Her only friend Kat moved away early on. We see that she's lonely throughout the series, unable to keep friends for too long because they keep abandoning her in some way. Sometimes, it does take a series of small moments to get to a breaking point. 

As for your other point, this story was Hannah's and Clay's stories. They were essentially the main characters while everyone else played a supporting role. I think the bit that we were shown of Jessica's breakdown was well done. Sure, I would have loved more, but this wasn't just about Jessica; this was about Hannah and her situation. So that's why they spent a bit more time on Clay.

[Lady Calypso]

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I am so conflicted on Justin. He is just SUCH an asshole, especially to Clay, and him not only letting his friend rape his girlfriend, but trying to act like it never happened is unforgivable, BUT his life seems to suck so much, he seems to have no positive role models in his life, and he just seems so miserable behind his cocky jock exterior. Of course, that's kind of my relationship with most of the kids in this show, to differing extents.

I'm in the same boat. He's done such shitty things and provoked so many bad things to happen that I want to hate the guy completely, but I think the show did something really right in giving his background on why without outright making excuses for his behaviour. Usually, I'd feel annoyed when they give the bully the "sad background" with an abusive mother and a missing father or whatever, but it worked here. I'm not sure why, but I feel bad for the kid. Plus, taking into account that he's still a seventeen year old kid and not mature in any way, so with his shitty home life, it's no wonder he doesn't know how to make better choices. With Bryce as his best friend especially, it just goes to show that he's had no good role models. Add in the fact that he's been doing his own spiraling all season, it does give him more complex reasons for being the way that he is, which makes it easier to sympathize with. I can truly buy that he feels like Jessica's the only good thing in his life, which makes it easier to buy why he never told her about the rape and why he felt the need to protect her. Without Jessica, who does he really have in his life? It doesn't seem like he's close with any of the other jocks, Bryce's the biggest douchebag to ever douche since he raped his girlfriend and has been pretending that everything's cool (as well as sharing that photo with Hannah back at the beginning of the season, which really should have clued us in to Bryce's awfulness but I didn't put that together until the last two episodes), his mother is a truly vile woman who seems to love her boyfriend more than her own son, and his mother's boyfriend is truly a piece of shit. 

Now I wonder how much Justin has had to do on his own while his mother is drugged out of her mind, or drunk, or with her boyfriends. 

It was nice that Alex at least answered the door and let him stay, even if it didn't seem like he wanted to. Justin seemed to be quite polite with Alex's father as well. I'm actually rooting for a happy ending with the kid. 

6 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

"Unhelpful Yoda". Heh, I like Tony, but I'm as annoyed with him as Clay sometimes. He is just so damn vague and filled with endless sayings and advice, without actually saying anything other than "Its what Hannah wanted." I get his reasons, but if I was Clay, I would be about ready to jump out of his car too.

Tony has definitely been unhelpful. Yes, Clay needed to get on with the tapes and just watch them instead of asking Tony every day to tell him, but at the same time, Tony could have put Clay's mind at ease. Even telling him that Hannah didn't hate him would have been helpful. But nooooo, Tony kept making it seem like Clay's tape was the worst. I don't think it's helped that we haven't actually seen Tony/Hannah really interact. We've only seen two scenes of them interacting so far, and even with Tony's story a couple of episodes about Hannah leaving the tapes with him, it doesn't quite work with Tony's Yoda behaviour. He is way too wise for a seventeen year old. 

And Tony's truly my favourite character at the end of it all. He's just so damn annoying and I don't blame Clay for feeling frustrated. 

[tennisgurl]

That was a super intense season. I'm with Clay, I need this kind of thing spread out! What made this show so interesting was how almost every character (especially the teens) were relatable and sympathetic, even when they did awful, shitty things to each other. Except for Marcus, who just seemed like a tool, and Bryce, who was just awful and needs to be stopped. Even Mr. Porter, who seems like a fundamentally decent person, is probably the one I'm the most pissed off at. The other kids might have done worse things, but a lot of that can be chalked up to just being stupid kids (Jess, Sheri, Alex) or being emotionally damaged (Justin) or emotionally unready to deal with super intense issues (Jason, Ryan, Clay), while Mr. Porter is an actual adult whos JOB it is to help students who are struggling. His appointment with Hannah started out alright, but it took a serious nosedive towards the end. Who would tell a student who just admitted to being raped to just "move on"? And just let her leave and take some random business call? No wonder he tried to cover up that he met with Hannah right before she died.

I can see how people would be worried that teens could see this and interpret it as glorifying suicide, or using it as a way to send a "you'll be sorry!" message to people who have pissed them off, but I don't think it does. The suicide scene wasn't romantic or peaceful at all, it was nasty and gross and sad and just super depressing. And as for getting "back" at people? The people Hannah didn't have any good feelings for don't care, because they're assholes, and the people who she did have some nice feelings for are miserable, and the people suffering the most (Tony, Clay, her parents) are people she didn't blame at all. Maybe the show could have given more options besides suicide, but it certainly doesn't make killing yourself look like a good way out.

Poor Alex. I had a good idea what was going to happen with him (starting when he fell into the pool at Bryce's house, and it just kept going throughout) but it was still awful to have it confirmed. He did a really dick thing, but I don't at all think he's a bad person, and I really hope he survives and gets his life back on track. So the whole show is about people talking about how a teenager committed suicide and how no one saw any signs (and trying to cover their asses, or feeling guilty) despite how obvious the signs actually were, all the while another teenager was clearly showing signs of being suicidal, but no one noticed until he tried to kill himself. And that doesn't even count Justin and Clay admitting they seriously thought about dying as well, the serial rapist, the recent death of Jeff who everyone thought was alcohol related, and the obvious bullying in the hallways. This school needs an entire army of counselors. Who are actually competent!

As for a possible season two, I'm of two minds. On the one hand, the framing device is over. Hannah's story is complete, and I just cant think of a version of this show without her. It just seems like a story that is obviously made for one season. On the other hand, the show ended the other stories on a teaser for a possible second season, even after the end of Hannah's tapes. It answered all the questions about Hannah, but left us with a whole ton of other questions. Does Alex survive? Does Tyler shoot up the school? Does Bryce face justice? Do Hannah's parents win the lawsuit? Is Justin still homeless? Did anyone actually learn anything from this whole mess? I just don't know.

I wonder if season two would start with the aftermath of the shooting at the school, and we see bits and pieces of it (maybe talking heads in the media, and interviews with minor characters) and spend the rest of the show leading up to the shooting, so we have to wait to see who dies and what exactly happens. It could have flash forwards to people trying to figure out why Tyler did what he did. I don't know if they would be good, or in bad taste, or anything, but it would at least follow the theme.