Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[Ang]

I think the Diggle/Felicity friendship fell prey to MG's determination to move beyond O/D/F and he threw out the baby with the bath water.  Diggle was pretty much cut off from Oliver except for the odd "I don't want to die down here scene" or going to Felicity all Team Oliver, and Felicity was emotionally cut off from Oliver, Diggle and Roy, and physically given to Ray and Laurel.  I really wanted Diggle to give two shakes about how Felicity was feeling to be rejected again and again by Oliver but he only cared how Oliver was doing and Felicity got left out of 'warm and happy times chez Diggle'.

YES with Diggle showing concern for Felicity (and thank you for calling a spade a spade - too many people take Oliver's "I Love You"s as a sign that Oliver was reaching out when really he wasn't giving a thing).

 

The thing that gets me is that they could have introduced more masked heroes to Starling organically - with Felicity in the lair and Diggle providing support and managing things from just out of sight, Oliver's limited to being in one place at a time. It's completely believable that some situations would arise that would require another body or two. They could have grown threats within Starling that were legitimately too much for Arrow (not yet a fully developed Hero) to handle on his own. But this is all just making me think too hard about how poorly they portrayed things this season, so they probably couldn't have pulled it off after all. 

[wonderwall]

I really liked this Felicity meta regarding a small moment in the last episode: X

[Danny Franks]

Since Felicity deserves better than Oliver these days due to the writers purposefully making Oliver dumb to advance the plot, maybe the writers should go full out and please the people that want Oliver and Laurel together. You know, because "that's what happens in the comics."

 

I want them to follow the comics and have them get married, show Oliver constantly cheat on Laurel, ruin his own life as well as hers, and go through a bitter divorce. That way when the same fans complain about how toxic the relationship is I can say "but that's what happens in the comics. You wanted this."

 

That would actually be hilarious, because I'm fairly sure most people who desperately want Oliver and Laurel together have actually never read any comic books, and have just latched onto the 'because comics said so' reasoning to support their argument that Oliver and Laurel should be together.

 

Toxicity obviously isn't an issue for a lot of them, because this pairing was weapons grade poison from the pilot episode, and just got worse as the show continued. But within the next year or so, I expect Oliver/Felicity will be just as poisonous and unhealthy as well. It seems like the writing staff of this show struggle with any sort of relationship that is supposed to be viewed as positive and affirming.

[apinknightmare]

I think a large number of non-comic reading O/L fans are just Katie Cassidy fans who want her to get the guy on the show.

[statsgirl]

Does she have that many fans? I've never seen her in anything but Arrow but here she grates on me.

 

As for the comics fans, I get the impression they're not so invested in O/L as long as they get a good show.

 

I really liked this Felicity meta regarding a small moment in the last episode: X

I liked the sentiment but at this point, it feels like fanwanking to try to fill in what the show has lost, which is the connection between Oliver and Felicity.  You can say that everything Felicity does with respect to Ray is a reaction to what Oliver is doing but I think that cheapens Felicity's relationship with Ray.  Just like Oliver and Laurel, there is some way in which they have their own relationship irrespective of Olicity.

 

From the Spoiler thread:

 

 

It sounds like they're all set on hurting each other, so I don't see why Oliver is being blamed. From what I can tell, Felicity doesn't want much to do with him either. Did he start it? Doesn't really matter, does it? If they're being dicks to each other for love triangle reasons, isn't it better if they're not in many scenes together?

 

I've never really understood why characters are expected to be nice to someone who has hurt them. Oliver hurt Felicity, so she's not happy with him, Felicity hurt Oliver so he's not happy with her. That seems about the only realistic thing going on in this show.

I don't think  it's a matter of Felicity deliberately trying to hurt Oliver so much as she's trying to deal with the hurt that she feels as he keeps pushing her away alternating with telling her he loves her.

 

 

Oliver broke up with her before it even started and then told her that he was just waiting till the day he was the body on the slab too.  So Felicity said "okay for you but I don't want that", asked him to stop dangling maybes and got a job with Ray Palmer.  Oliver dangled maybes again ("And you know how I feel about her") so when Ray invited Felicity to a business dinner, she told Oliver, hoping he would step up to the plate.  Not only did he not, he made very sure she heard him tell Cupid that he can't be with someone.  Felicity returned Ray's kiss not because she wanted to hurt Oliver (she didn't know he would see) but because she was hurt and wanted comfort.

 

Move ahead to Oliver telling Felicity he loves her as she drags it out of his walking-out-the-door ass.  Followed by Felicity devastated and dreaming hopeless dreams.  First thing he does when he gets back is tell her he's going to be working with the man who killed his father and Sara and drugged his sister.  No discussion, she's shut out so she walks away.  From then on, it's like Felicity is a piece of tech equipment for Oliver, useful when he needs her but not allowed inside his walls.

 

Their last interaction --  Oliver tells Felicity he's going to face death again and then again shuts her out of the discussion he's having with Diggle. Felicity, truly hurt, goes to Ray.

 

So what I'm seeing is that Oliver keeps  hurting Felicity, and she reacts to that.  What she does as a reaction hurts him because he's being an idiot but she's not doing it to deliberately him.

 

I'm completely on Team Felicity on this one.

Edited March 5, 2015 by MostlyC
Tagged for possible spoilers

[Password]

Funnily enough I'm team No One right now. I'm bored. The angst is tiring because I literally cannot believe the writers want me to sit through Ray and Felicity.

As much as saying Felicity runs to Ray, or Ray saves the day cheapens their relationship, so far that is how it's played out. Oliver does something stupid, Felicity ends up at QC "oh hi Ray. It's like you have a Smoak detector or something".

I'm counting on them actually deepening Raylicity so we can see what the big fuss is about. If I have to sit through it, make it count. It was one of my complaints with Sara and Oliver. It changed or added nothing to the story.

Edited March 5, 2015 by Limbo

[wonderwall]

statsgirl, everything on this show requires fanwanking now, sadly. Regardless, that meta doesn't seem that big of a leap. There were tears in Felicity's eyes, it's not that far off to assume or believe that it was about Oliver because she literally just had that scene with Oliver. 

 

I think this is less a case of fanwanking and more a case where the actress makes up for crappy writing. 

 

Limbo, I think the fact that their relationship doesn't run that deep is meaningful in its own sense. I don't think that after everything with Oliver, Felicity wants something complicated or deep. Idk, her having a shallow relationship with Ray makes sense for me. 

Edited March 5, 2015 by wonderwall

[Password]

Once I get into Felicity's mind, I'll be satisfied. I'm tired of fanwanking tbh, even though what you said makes sense.

[statsgirl]

I really want Felicity to talk to a friend. The poor girl has been severely traumatized this season and she has no one to talk to other than Ray, who is part of the problem, and Laurel, who is still a stranger and who put her down for two years.  I blame MG for thinking that we would forgive Felicity anything and it was okay to use her just for propping.

 

She needs a real friend to talk to, Roy or Diggle or Caitlyn.  If Oliver is messed up, think of what Felicity must be like by now.

 

wonderwall, I agree that Felicity was worried about Oliver and that's why she kissed Ray, because he valued her when she felt that Oliver and maybe Diggle didn't.  But that in itself is a problem and diminishes Felicity, that she would sleep with Ray and presumably have a relationship with him just in reaction to what Oliver is doing rather than for anything in her relationship with Ray himself.

[wonderwall]

wonderwall, I agree that Felicity was worried about Oliver and that's why she kissed Ray, because he valued her when she felt that Oliver and maybe Diggle didn't.  But that in itself is a problem and diminishes Felicity, that she would sleep with Ray and presumably have a relationship with him just in reaction to what Oliver is doing rather than for anything in her relationship with Ray himself.

 

Felicity kissing Ray was her being selfish (in a good way). And like I've said before, after years of giving everything to the team and Oliver, I didn't mind this being the point where Felicity broke and finally took something for herself. The timing was iffy, but I can definitely see her being desperate enough to want to forget about how crappy her life was and forget about Oliver and Ray posed a perfect opportunity for that.

 

All rebound relationships are meant to be a reaction to an ex relationships. And that's what F/R are supposed to be. IF the writers try to make it more than what it is, then yeah, I'll have a problem with it. I don't want Felicity to lead Ray on. But then again, Ray KNOWS Felicity has feelings for another man, he KNOWS that she's going through a rough time in which maybe it's not prudent to start a relationship. So he brought this upon himself too. Maybe Felicity is the same for Ray. Maybe she's a good distraction from his crappy life and his dead fiancee. 

 

I don't think that diminishes her character at all. I think it just makes her human. 

[statsgirl]

I have no idea why Ray wants Felicity other than she's attractive and she's available.  She's told him she's worried about a friend but I don't think it's registered.

 

One thing that did bug me -- MG keeps saying that this is Felicity taking what she wants, which sex with Ray. What I saw is that Felicity kissed Ray and then apologized for it. The lunge itself was all on Ray.

[Genki]

Because this whole storyline is not about Felicty and what would make sense for her as a character, but about Ray and trying to use her to prop him.

[Danny Franks]

I agree most female characters get this eventually, but I also think there is too much emphasis put on this supposed huge backlash.  Yes, some people are fed up with Felicity, but that was always there it just seems more widespread now because Felicity is doing more than hanging in the lair supporting the team.  No character is universally liked so Felicity getting some blowback doesn't mean she is expendable.  Even if everyone online suddenly hated Felicity (which they clearly don't) approximately 3 million people watch this show every week, viewers who go online (myself included obviously) are not as big of a deal as people try to make them.

 

With the amount of people in these threads who are saying that Oliver 'needs to get his head out of his arse' or that he's an idiot who doesn't deserve Felicity, or any number of other things, it certainly isn't just Felicity who has seen her popularity take a hit this season.

 

And it's because, as I've typed until I'm blue in the face, love triangles rely on the characters being unsympathetic and making choices that the audience disagrees with. Of course there will be sections of the audience who turn on either one character or the other. For myself, love triangles usually make me dislike both characters, and also the prop used to support the third leg of it.

 

In this case, no matter how much justification people can find for Felicity turning away from Oliver, the fact is that she's turned to a guy who many people feel has displayed stalkerish, creepy tendencies and shown no understanding of acceptable behaviour and personal boundaries. And the writing has isolated her with that person, which will naturally bring questions about what she offers to a show that people want to be about Oliver Queen and his team.

 

But I would hazard a guess that a lot of the people now openly saying they don't like her already didn't like her. Not everyone does, after all.

Edited March 6, 2015 by Danny Franks

[statsgirl]

And it's because, as I've typed until I'm blue in the face, love triangles rely on the characters being unsympathetic and making choices that the audience disagrees with. Of course there will be sections of the audience who turn on either one character or the other. For myself, love triangles usually make me dislike both characters, and also the prop used to support the third leg of it.

 

And yet, every single show feels like they have to introduce triangle after triangle for the sake of drama.  I find that when the OTP finally gets together, if I'm still watching the show (often not) I feel relief that the drama is finally over rather than joy my OTP is together.

 

I just read Robert Dougherty essay on the problems with Ray.  So many good points.

 

In his early episodes, Ray was defined by borderline creepy behavior, a lack of real social skills, and a lack of any qualities that would believably make Felicity even consider him a real friend before anything else. Later episodes have done nothing to really redeem this, as now he just has a drive to be a hero that is really as self-destructive as Oliver’s, and yet is dressed up to justify Felicity sleeping with him anyway. That doesn’t even include all the narrative mistakes and unnecessary character decisions from both Oliver and Felicity to even make Raylicity an alternate option, even if just for a few episodes.

Quite frankly, all Ray has proven to be so far is an unnecessary distraction, and a poorly used one at that. Oliver and Felicity already have enough to divide them without a third wheel – and it would have been true no matter which one of them got the additional love interest. With Laurel becoming the Black Canary, there is already one long storyline about the formation of a new hero without needing a second one. And to be especially blunt, the very existence of Ray is encouraging the most clichéd, pointless, time killing qualities that the Arrow writing staff has – and their most oblivious as well if they still won’t take the stalking argument seriously.

[apinknightmare]

I don't think Oliver's bad decision making has anything to do with a love triangle. Stirring up O/F drama is a bonus, but the main reason he's acting like a moron is to keep Malcolm relevant to the plot and to facilitate this stupid Ra's plot line. I really don't think this love triangle has created much drama at all compared to the rest of the idiotic drama we're being subjected to outside of it.

I hesitate to even call it a love triangle since Oliver has repeatedly removed himself from the ring.

Edited March 6, 2015 by apinknightmare

[statsgirl]

Oh, I agree.  The "love triangle" is a snooze compared to the amount of fanwanking we have to do to accept that Oliver has been protecting Malcolm since  The Magician.

 

The character who has taken the real hit in this is Felicity in terms of being kept out of the emotional connection with her real friends of Team Arrow and to a lesser extent trying to make scenes with Ray flirty.

[kismet]

I feel like all the relationships this season have taking a beating due to plot driven storylines. There is an overall lack of communication and actual conversations between all the main characters. They seem to only talk about plot related points. The close connections that have been building over 3 seasons have been dramatically missing. In previous seasons they would talk about plot, but it would generally be a conversation with some give & take that is missing this season. The only 2 relationships that have gotten better or more nuanced is Thea/Oliver & Thea/Roy. But the central reason is that they actually decided to write a storyline for Thea that was part of the main narrative. The other relationship that has dramatically gotten worse is Laurel/Quentin and frankly I have no idea why the writers intentionally chose to ruin that relationship. Because the lying to QL did not effect or influence the plot. I guess it created some tension & angst in LL's life, but Im not sure it was necessary and it definitely did not need to go on as long as it did.

[Ang]

I hesitate to even call it a love triangle since Oliver has repeatedly removed himself from the ring.

I like the way you phrased this. I still get up in arms when I remember some of the things I read, particularly after 3x12 but also earlier, implying that Felicity was the reason they weren't together. Yes, she's the one who has repeatedly walked away, but what were her options? Make a declaration of affections that Oliver had JUST told her he couldn't accept? Push him until he was forced to drive her away? Shoot for a moment of passion that Oliver would instantly regret and make her feel horrible about?

 

Oh, I agree.  The "love triangle" is a snooze compared to the amount of fanwanking we have to do to accept that Oliver has been protecting Malcolm since  The Magician.

 

The character who has taken the real hit in this is Felicity in terms of being kept out of the emotional connection with her real friends of Team Arrow and to a lesser extent trying to make scenes with Ray flirty.

The first part of this got me started on something I need to take to another thread; probably Target Practice, although it's more critique than bitterness. The second part just makes me sad, because she really has been forced out of years-long relationships for no reason. She's been spending all her free time with Diggle and Roy, right? And yet they really haven't addressed that at all this season.

[catrox14]

At this point Felicity should just get her own show. "Felicity Transitive Property X".  Her superpower is making everyone else likeable.

[Ang]

You know what I realized the other day? I would have been perfectly happy if Felicity and Oliver had eventually evolved into a bit of a James Bond/Moneypenny thing. Don't get me wrong, I would have longed and begged and whined for them to get together, I would have sighed with frustration over their obvious but apparently ignored soulmate status, but little moments of friendship, support, attraction and flirtation could have sustained me for years. This forced, angst- and anger-ridden nonromance is killing me. Look at how few good Olicity memes, photo edits, and clips we've gotten this season! So lame.

[tennisgurl]

Love triangles on TV are, almost always, utterly pointless. They exist to create drama because the writers think that the audience doesn't want to see an actual couple. That is certainly true here, but its more than just a lame love triangle. Oliver and Felicity were on a clear path to a relationship going into this season, and it seemed like this season we were going to either get them together, or have issues pertaining to Oliver`s various Arrow related issues. I certainly didn't expect this Ray Palmer thing, or the "Oliver must protect Malcolm Merlyn" plot line. This might go towards the bitterness thread, but this relationship really was moving in an organic way, until this season. Now it just seems like their relationship has been permanently hurt by these painful plot contrivances.  

[Password]

One thing that did bug me -- MG keeps saying that this is Felicity taking what she wants, which sex with Ray. What I saw is that Felicity kissed Ray and then apologized for it. The lunge itself was all on Ray.

I wonder if we'll have a lunge of some sort every season. And always around the same time.

[statsgirl]

You know what I realized the other day? I would have been perfectly happy if Felicity and Oliver had eventually evolved into a bit of a James Bond/Moneypenny thing.

I have to disagree.  Moneypenny spent years, decades maybe, doing everything for James and while he teased her, she was always last on his list, below whoever his most recent hook-up was.  It made her rather pathetic, like Felicity was after Oliver slept with Isabel, secretly loving him but knowing he was never going to pick her, just the superficial shiny women he went through.

 

I was more for Felicity.  I think the EPs thought that Ray Palmer was going to be that,, handsome, rich and truly appreciating her. Too bad it didn't come through in the writing.

 

 

 Yes, she's the one who has repeatedly walked away, but what were her options? Make a declaration of affections that Oliver had JUST told her he couldn't accept? Push him until he was forced to drive her away? Shoot for a moment of passion that Oliver would instantly regret and make her feel horrible about?

Maybe if Ra's offer works, she can pick up some tips on how to force a guy into accepting you on your terms.

 

I think you're right, there is nothing Felicity could have done to make Oliver change his mind, and the more she was around him, the more he solidified his opinions.

Edited March 6, 2015 by statsgirl

[Password]

And the writing has isolated her with that person, which will naturally bring questions about what she offers to a show that people want to be about Oliver Queen and his team.

Err...may I ask what you meant by this?

[Ang]

I have to disagree.  Moneypenny spent years, decades maybe, doing everything for James and while he teased her, she was always last on his list, below whoever his most recent hook-up was.  It made her rather pathetic, like Felicity was after Oliver slept with Isabel, secretly loving him but knowing he was never going to pick her, just the superficial shiny women he went through.

You're right, and I wouldn't have wanted the obnoxious condescension aspect of it. But with their mutual respect and a tacit acknowledgement that, while they're drawn to each other, actually being together is a bad idea, it would have been just a next step from their relationship in season 2. But then, with her understanding, acceptance and support, there goes their, "everything sucks for Oliver and he is so very alone! Will he give up being Oliver Queen???" nonsense storyline. They needed something to drive them apart, and they sure found it.

[quarks]

Over in the Spoiler Discussion thread, this comment was made:

 

and the near-total lack of Olicity this year.

 

 

This genuinely puzzles me.

 

There's been less banter, true (except during the Flash episodes), but this year we've had a date (that went badly, but still a date); four declarations of some sort of feeling from Oliver ("Don't ask me to say I don't love you," "You know how I feel about her," "I know what it is to want someone and not be able to be with that person," "I love you"); three declarations of some sort of feeling from Felicity (the bit about the quiet dreams you keep to yourself, calling Oliver more than a friend, admitting that while he was not exactly dead, she spent the time hoping that when he came back, things would be different); one big damn kiss; one forehead kiss; one dream kiss; Diggle telling Oliver "And you love her, man. You even told her so," and later urging Oliver to go after her (more than Diggle has ever done with any of Oliver's previous relationships); acknowledgements of the relationship from three more characters (Malcolm verbally, Roy, and even somewhat from Laurel - with Laurel as the biggie here); Felicity and Oliver still working together even post their breakup; continued eye sex even after the "I don't want to be a woman you love,"; Felicity immediately agreeing to help out in the last episode when Oliver explained about Thea; and a completely unnecessary to the narrative bit in the flashback episode meant to highlight that Oliver/Felicity is the destined couple.

 

Plus nearly an entire episode focused on Felicity's grief when she thought Oliver was gone.

 

This is even one of the reasons why, I think, the Ray/Felicity relationship isn't really working all that well - it's playing against a major relationship that's still having huge moments.  Not to mention the boundaries issues, the romantic comedy versus drama issues, the problem that the show has to keep it a shallow relationship because it's temporary for meta reasons, but also wants us to take it as a serious choice, a balance that I don't think the show has hit, and the issue that their scenes seem to be from another show.

 

And also, contrast the first season, where with the exception of Helena, whose judgement was, shall we say, a bit impaired; Moira briefly while trying to emotionally manipulate Laurel into agreeing to be Oliver's lawyer; and Tommy, almost every character continually pointed out, in every single episode, the problems with the Oliver/Laurel relationship.  And by everyone, I really mean everyone: this came from Diggle, Thea, Joanna, Slade, Quentin, Felicity, Thea, Oliver and Laurel themselves.  And even Moira's moment was just to point out that Oliver was "smitten" with Laurel and to pay Laurel a compliment; once she got Laurel to agree, that ended Moira's support of that relationship.

 

No one is saying that with Oliver/Felicity. We've had Diggle saying that Oliver pushing Felicity away is a mistake.  We've had Laurel, of all people, say that Oliver is lucky to have Felicity, and accepting Felicity in Oliver's life. And we've had the show point out what happens when Oliver pushes Felicity away and later has a nightmare about dying after kissing Felicity: Oliver starts making terrible decisions and ends up in chains in Nanda Parbat listening to an immortal assassin chat up the benefits of leading a group through the judicious use of hot tubs.  The show wasn't subtle about this in the first season: whenever Oliver/Laurel tried to get together, people got hurt.  This season, when Oliver/Felicity aren't together, Oliver is lost and a bunch of assassins are about to get their feelings very hurt.  ("Ra's. You could choose any of us, and instead you choose that guy?  Sure, his abs are great, but have you paid any attention to his management issues?  Even the QC board was like, uh, no, and they were willing to go with the guy who's obsessed with becoming Iron Man.  Is eternity getting to you, dude?")

 

So I wouldn't say there's been a lack of Olicity this year. In the last few episodes, sorta, but that's just a few episodes. And even those episodes have had moments. 

[AyChihuahua]

I feel pretty comfortable that there is a big perception out there that Olicity has sucked this year.  Yes, there have bee the mostly angsty moments you've mentioned, but almost nothing really just good re Olicity.  They've barely even touched each other, and they've been glaring a lot more than heart-eyeing.  I personally have seen so little positive Olicity and so much negative (not even including her sleeping with Ray) that I no longer care about that relationship.  But, the producers do, and there's a good chance they are going to throw some genuinely positive stuff in there to try to tempt hardcore fans to buy the DVDs.  

[kismet]

I loved your post Quarks! It was right on the money. I think "olicity" fever has taken over part of the fandom. It seems like people are so desperate to want them together that unless it is blatantly romantic they are foaming at the mouths for more. I don't mean this as an insult. I admire the passion many of these fans have. And I too want them to end up together, so I get where some of this passion is coming from. But I also want their story to be well written & realistic, so I can be patient. I have one big fear and that is the writers will do what they did with s1 LL which is have them finally hook up only to have it fall apart or negatively affect the characters. I don't want that. Either they get together for real and give episodes (I would take season/s too) of actual togetherness or they should just continue to shelf it for reasons. As much as I don't think S1 LL/OQ would have been good together for the long haul, I thought their hook up was jarring in the aftermath because of how they wrote it with Tommy and all the other drama. It ruined what could have been an attempt to start a reconciliatory relationship that they had been trying to build all season. It would have been nice to see them follow through with the relationship attempt, but of course it wasn't possible after Tommy. So I would hate for the writers to do something similar again, because it would taint the relationship. They already crashed & burned their first date, give them at least a decent 2nd shot.

 

But I digress I little, what I feel people are saying to some degree when they are missing Olicity is that they are missing the supportive way that FS & OQ interacted for 2.5 seasons. Since his return and maybe even a little before that since probably around the cupid episode they have been more distant and less supportive of each other. I understand they are both pulling away romantically and that it is challenging to be around someone when you're experiencing that type of hurt & loss. But I guess what I hoped to have seen is them still acting like friends & business partners. Not to completely remove the angst, but somehow tone it down. Perhaps, if they had shown their interactions a little more late s2 (when OQ had chosen Sara) it would have made it more workable to the plot & the characters. I found their interactions to be friendly in those episodes, but not romantic or angsty. I missed that tone this season when it would have made sense again if they had both maturely chose to move on. I also think it would have made raylicity seem more realistic because not only is Ray the "perfect alternative" (per writers, not me) saying everything she wants to hear while following through on it. Why would it not make sense that logical FS would chose that option. But the overwrought angst cloud made it feel that FS's decisions were being influenced by her frustration with OQ, not her attraction to RP. Showing her & OQ having more friendly civil interactions would have made it seem like FS was in the appropriate headspace to be making "mature adult" decisions as MG said in his tumblr. RP & FS connection would have seemed more genuine and less a reactionary choice to OQ's. But that's not what was really shown on the screen. I do think the writers are slowly working them back to friendship, which is why I was happy that they showed her helping him find the airpad this past episode after he explained to her that he didn't want his sister to suffer the guilt of a parent's death the way he has to live with it. It showed that even though they are not romantically pursuing each other, they still care about each other. I feel like the writers could have written more scenes like that into some of the previous episodes, the audience would have been more receptive to the tension between them & raylicity. I feel its important to show that they still care about each other even if they are on opposite sides of an argument, regardless of whether they end up together or not. They are still part of a team, and that caring connection needs to be there. I think that is what has been missing in the back part of the season, which is what people are responding to when they talk about a lack of "olicity", it missing FS & OQ interacting in a friendly way. I hope this makes sense.

Edited March 7, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

My big problem is I hated 100% of everything Oliver/Felicity after Oliver came back from not dying. It's more than not liking/enjoying the story, it's seeing all the contrivances for what they are, and being taken out of the narrative by spotting the flaws in the writing. Which drives me insane, because the one thing I find worse than not enjoying a storyline is seeing the machinations behind the plotting.

 

In hindsight, I was fine with Oliver/Felicity in 3A. Even considering ~angsty romance tropes are not ever my thing. But everything that's building towards O/F in 3B [and I do think they'll go back to it by the last 2-3 episodes because DVD sales] makes me wanna rescue them from these writers and put them in a completely different show that favors character-driven stories. So it's kind of an avalanche effect: everything 'shippy that happened from 310 onwards trampled on everything I was liking before.

 

I do think there are some things they can still do that will make me go back to enjoying O/F. Solving this moronic love triangle in an adult, drama-less manner would be a very good start. I'm hopeful that will happen -- if only because Crazy Eyed dude is being packed off to a different show, and they need to keep the crossover avenue open. But otoh, my faith in these writers' abilities have never ever been this low before, so I'm taking the "I'll believe it when I see it" stance.

[wonderwall]

I'm like the complete opposite. I didn't really like their interactions in season 3A as much as I do in 3b. 3B seems less contrived than 3A. Everything else on the other hand, I hate. I much prefer season 3A overall though. 

[Guest]

I think a lot of people misunderstand the passion for Olicity tbh. Just because people are rooting for them to be together doesn't mean we want it to happen now now now! I'd rather they were written properly, engagingly, than have all this accelerated angst.

 

I would have preferred if they had stuck to just being friends this season, maybe had some confirmation that Oliver loves Felicity but he kept it to himself because he knows deep down he wasn't ready. Felicity, oblivious, could have started dating Ray without it all being about Oliver and we still could have had him pining a little but believing he was right to keep away because it's not fair to dangle those maybes. And over the course of the season, Felicity would realize that Ray isn't right for her because she loves Oliver too. And they slowly move towards something while still being friends. That way, we could have done without all this bitterness that lingers in all of their scenes of late. The genuine friendship is what I'm missing most from Olicity at the moment. I personally would have been more than happy to wait until s4 for any sort of romantic relationship between them.

 

Don't get me wrong, I haven't hated all of their scenes this season and I thought their date was wonderful and real, but I just feel like they accelerated this relationship perhaps too soon. And introducing a third party love interest after feelings have been confessed just ends up leaving a bitter taste in my mouth, even though Felicity has every right to move on. Love triangles just don't make anyone look all that great tbh.

 

Sadly though, I think this has proven that the EP's can only write a great romance when they don't actually write it. 

[Scribbles]

I am interested in a lot of relationships on the show.  Who doesn't love Oliver and Diggle?  I enjoy the Roy/Oliver dynamic and see a lot of potential there.  Felicity and Diggle play so well off each other and together.  I love that Diggle/Lyla and now Baby Sara are as they are.  The bits of Roy and Felicity we have seen have potential (big sis, lil bro vibe).  The Laurel/Quentin relationship has provided story and is for me the most believable of Laurel's relationships so far (except way back with some CNRI colleagues).  Sara and Oliver made sense to me.  Slade (as friend and enemy) with Oliver worked very well.  I could go on and on.

 

The point is that these writers have it in them to write believable relationships that you want to see more of on screen.  Sometimes, not so much.

 

With Ray and Felicity it feels like they overshot and it is really hard to see why they (the writers/producers) thought the choices they made would be appealing or even entertainingly unappealing.  I remember reading a bit with AK or Belanti were they talked about wanting to use Felicity in a Hepburn/Tracy vibe.  I love Hepburn (and by proxy Tracy) and reading the interview made me wince.  Too many times I have watched writers/producers go for that dynamic and blow it.  I thought at the time and still do that they were missing how Tracy played.  Oliver is more Tracy like than Ray, but in the interview there was an underestimation in Amell's ability to carry it off.  Chemistry and dynamics that flow naturally are movie/tv magic.  When producers/writers try to recreate it, they are like the alchemists of old trying to make gold. 

 

I can't imagine a writers meeting where no one who pointed out that pitting Ray against Oliver for the girl prize was going to leave Ray damaged.  It must have happened though.  Then to take it as far as they did seems like a waste with more risks than benefits.  Ray/Felicity could have put Oliver through the same paces and made Felicity face her feelings in a way that would have been entertaining and not grating to watch.  They were going for gold and created lusterless lead.

 

With Oliver and Felicity this season they missed the mark on reminding viewers why Oliver would want to love Felicity.  It was a hard mark to hit when also trying to show why Oliver struggles with living with the vulnerability being in love creates.  They took a bit too much for granted in terms of what a broad audience would figure out without being shown.

 

While I like a lot of what I have seen with Thea, a personal beef with me is Oliver's unchecked blindness when it comes to her.  I am hoping they follow through on the bit in Robert Queen's message about realizing a "do it all for family" motive can't be the whole story.

[statsgirl]

With the exception of the cross-over episodes, I have a hard time understanding why Felicity would want to love Oliver at this stage.  The guy has done nothing but hurt her this season, and yet she keeps coming back. It's making her look pathetic.  He's just not that into  you, Felicity.  Maybe that's why they have to have various characters keep saying that he is, because what's showing is that he loves his pain more than he loves her.

 

Even if no one pointed out in the writers meetings that having Felicity in a relationship with Ray was going to hurt Ray, someone must have, on twitter or a blog or a review.  There was still time to change things after Draw Back Your Bow aired, but they didn't.

Over in the Spoiler Discussion thread, this comment was made:

and the near-total lack of Olicity this year.

This genuinely puzzles me.

Was that me? 

 

If it was, then I meant lack of  Olicity meaning "a lack of reasons for me to want Oliver and Felicity to get together."

 

As you pointed out, there are a lot of scenes of people talking about how Oliver and Felicity should be together, telling Oliver he cares for Felicity, watching Felicity crying over him, but it feels like season 1 where we were constantly being told how Oliver and Laurel are OTP from teenagers but every time I saw them together, I wanted to throw them in to a therapy session and get them to sign documents saying they will never, ever get together again because of how toxic they were.

 

This season, in terms of their relationship, we've seen Oliver and Felicity excited about their date, and then Oliver ending it before it began as we watched Felicity crying when Oliver shut down Diggle too.  We've seen Felicity sad about Sara's death while Oliver not only refused to comfort her but told her he was just waiting to die himself.  We've see Ray value Felicity at work, promote her and kiss her while Oliver again tells her he can't be with the woman he loves.  In fact, he won't tell her he loves her except when he's walking away.

 

We've seen Felicity hang on to hope that he's still alive and cry when  she thought he wasn't and hope again when she learned he was.  And Oliver coming back and not only pushing her away again romantically but also destroying her image of him by working with MM when she thought that in no universe would he ever.  Most recently, we've seen Oliver opening up to Diggle and trusting him, while pushing Felicity out the door along with Laurel and Roy.

 

Tell me again why exactly I should be rooting for this couple this season?

 

I also think it would have made raylicity seem more realistic because not only is Ray the "perfect alternative" (per writers, not me) saying everything she wants to hear while following through on it. Why would it not make sense that logical FS would chose that option. But the overwrought angst cloud made it feel that FS's decisions were being influenced by her frustration with OQ, not her attraction to RP.

A good point.  Instead of showing the connection that Oliver and Felicity still have on screen, they've made all her interactions with Ray a reaction to Oliver pushing her away, from taking on the job in the first place, to kissing him, to trying to save Ray when she couldn't save Oliver, to finally sleeping with him because Oliver won't let her have any input into his decision to save Malcolm.

 

It was bad writing and hurt both relationships. 

 

Even in the two seasons that Castle and Beckett were with other people, I still wanted them to get together as a couple because when they were in scenes together, it was still a lot of fun.  That hasn't been true for Oliver and Felicity this season.   Except for the cross-over episodes, Oliver is cold and Felicity is either hurt or trying to get back their old friendship but being shut out.

 

I remember reading a bit with AK or Belanti were they talked about wanting to use Felicity in a Hepburn/Tracy vibe.  I love Hepburn (and by proxy Tracy) and reading the interview made me wince.  Too many times I have watched writers/producers go for that dynamic and blow it.  I thought at the time and still do that they were missing how Tracy played.  Oliver is more Tracy like than Ray,

Sometimes they said Hepburn/Cary Grant, and sometimes Tracy. I think they got confused since she had a number of movies with both men. At one point someone referred to Oliver as being like Clark Gable.

 

I definitely think that Ray is more like Cary Grant in the Hepburn/Grant screwball movies like Bringing Up Baby (Baby is a pet leopard for those who haven't seen it) and Oliver is more like Spencer Tracy of the later ones like Adam's Rib.  Clark Gable I don't see at all, unless they're thinking of the stairway scene in Gone With The Wind.  Or maybe it was because Clark Gable was married to Carole Lombard, one of the early screwball icons.

Edited March 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[Guest]

With the exception of the cross-over episodes, I have a hard time understanding why Felicity would want to love Oliver at this stage.  The guy has done nothing but hurt her this season, and yet she keeps coming back. It's making her look pathetic.  He's just not that into  you, Felicity.  Maybe that's why they have to have various characters keep saying that he is, because what's showing is that he loves his pain more than he lovers her.

 

Sorry, but in what way does Felicity keep coming back? She might have said she fantasized things could be different between them but that was when she thought he was dead so in her mind, they'd never get the chance. Other than that I've not seen anything but Felicity try to move on. How does this make her pathetic?

[dtissagirl]

Instead of showing the connection that Oliver and Felicity still have on screen, they've made all her interactions with Ray a reaction to Oliver pushing her away, from taking on the job in the first place, to kissing him, to trying to save Ray when she couldn't save Oliver, to finally sleeping with him because Oliver won't let her have any input into his decision to save Malcolm.

 

It was bad writing and hurt both relationships.  

This is a great point. Guggenheim says Oliver isn't willing to give Felicity what she wants, so she made the "healthy and mature" choice to be with Palmer. And that's just insane troll logic. If she turns to another dude because the one she really wants is out of the question, that's not even a little bit healthy and mature. It's very much the opposite of that.

And I'd be A-okay if the text were showing Felicity making a stupid rash decision. It would still be ridiculous high school romance writing, but I'd at least accept the premise. But there goes the head writer saying this is mature and healthy of her. And that's why I go BZUHHH?! when I watch this show lately.

[looptab]

I think he means "healhty and mature" in the sense that Felicity is not pining and waiting for something that, as of now, has zero possibilities to happen. So she decides that she has to move on, and actually does so, when the next best billionaire comes out of the shower, instead of just being a doormat and keep hurting in the hope that Oliver might one day change his mind.

Edited March 7, 2015 by looptab

[statsgirl]

 So she decides that she has to move on, and actually does so, when the next best billionaire comes out of the shower, instead of just be a doormat and keep hurting in the hope that Oliver might one day change his mind.

LOL.  That's the first time in a long time I've felt a connection to the original Felicity, who is screwball and bumbling and funny rather than the sad, crying creature of season 3.

 

Sorry, but in what way does Felicity keep coming back?

In spite of Oliver repeatedly shutting her down, she keeps hoping and thinking that they just might have a chance after all even though she's been physically trying to move on with her life. The quiet dreams she told Barry about on the train even after Oliver broke it off with her and told her he was waiting to die.  The hope in her face when she told Oliver that Ray had asked her to a business dinner, really wanting him to tell her he doesn't want her to go; the tears in her eyes when he told Cupid he couldn't be with any woman were the tears of someone who was still hoping it would work out. Of course the dreams when she found out he was still alive, and even after he shut her out about his decision re Malcolm, she still kept hoping because the hurt on her face when Oliver and Diggle shut her out of their discussion about going to Nanda Parbat spoke of someone who was still hoping he would turn around and be hers, not someone who had accepted she needs to move on.

 

I think it's a direction EBRs been given, to show that Felicity still loves Oliver and wants him, but I don't think it does the character many favors.

Edited March 7, 2015 by statsgirl

[wonderwall]

It's not EASY to fall out of love with people. So even if Oliver keeps on making stupid decisions, even if Felicity doesn't agree with him, it doesn't mean that she'll instantly fall out of love with him. Of COURSE she's still dangling onto that hope because Oliver keeps dangling that hope right in front of her with all of his declarations of love. Give the girl a break. She's only human. I honestly can't believe people would look down on her because she's having trouble falling out of love. 

 

The fact that she's now ACTIVELY taking steps away from Oliver shows strength. I don't care how people see it. It's difficult to let your head lead instead of your heart, especially for a woman like Felicity. 

 

As for Felicity being screwball and bumbling, there's no room for that this season. It would be misplaced and it wouldn't be appropriate /at all/. Wanting her to be what she was last season would be disrespectful to the character and what she's been through this season. 

Edited March 7, 2015 by wonderwall

[MsSchadenfreude]

 

It's not EASY to fall out of love with people. So even if Oliver keeps on making stupid decisions, even if Felicity doesn't agree with him, it doesn't mean that she'll instantly fall out of love with him. Of COURSE she's still dangling onto that hope because Oliver keeps dangling that hope right in front of her with all of his declarations of love. Give the girl a break. She's only human. I honestly can't believe people would look down on her because she's having trouble falling out of love.

 

THIS!!!  I find the idea that Felicity should snap her fingers and not be in love with Oliver anymore ridiculous.  If it is that easy, then you weren't in love in the first place.  It takes time to fall in love and it takes time to fall out of love.  I don't think Felicity's actions are pathetic, I think they are realistic.  I would rather watch that then some forced version of Season 2 Felicity which has no place in the current story, just because people want her to be the funny one again.

[Guest]

In spite of Oliver repeatedly shutting her down, she keeps hoping and thinking that they just might have a chance after all even though she's been physically trying to move on with her life. The quiet dreams she told Barry about on the train even after Oliver broke it off with her and told her he was waiting to die.  The hope in her face when she told Oliver that Ray had asked her to a business dinner, really wanting him to tell her he doesn't want her to go; the tears in her eyes when he told Cupid he couldn't be with any woman were the tears of someone who was still hoping it would work out. Of course the dreams when she found out he was still alive, and even after he shut her out about his decision re Malcolm, she still kept hoping because the hurt on her face when Oliver and Diggle shut her out of their discussion about going to Nanda Parbat spoke of someone who was still hoping he would turn around and be hers, not someone who had accepted she needs to move on.

 

I think it's a direction EBRs been given, to show that Felicity still loves Oliver and wants him, but I don't think it does the character many favors.

 

I'm glad those things happened though because, as you said, at least it shows that she loves Oliver rather than be cold and unfeeling. Without those moments, I don't think we'd have any indication that she had romantic feelings for him at all this season and personally, I needed to see that it was a two way street.

 

I don't think wishing things could be different makes her look pathetic at all. If she was repeatedly begging Oliver to change his mind I might think differently but Felicity has taken active steps to move on even though her heart's not in it. Making the decision to move on even though your heart is breaking takes more courage to me than sitting there waiting, which she is absolutely not doing and good for her. 

 

Agree to disagree though!

Edited March 7, 2015 by Guest

[statsgirl]

As for Felicity being screwball and bumbling, there's no room for that this season. It would be misplaced and it wouldn't be appropriate /at all/. Wanting her to be what she was last season would be disrespectful to the character and what she's been through this season. 

That was how AK and MG were referring to her with Ray this season.

 

I perfectly understand that you can't just fall out of love with a person and why Felicity doesn't. But if I were a new viewer in s3 and saw their interactions and how Oliver was treating Felicity, including the continually dangling maybes when she's begging him not to, I'd wonder what was wrong with Felicity that she's still wanting for a life with this guy.

 

Again, it's because it's been badly written to be about Oliver's manpain rather than Felicity's feelings.  But if she were my friend, I'd tell her to stop listening to what Oliver says and look at what he's doing.  And stop hoping.because she's only going to get her heart broken again and again.

 

I really think telling her to leave while Diggle and Oliver talked about his decision and their plans, as if she mattered as little as Laurel and Roy, was the last straw for me.  Oliver has hurt her more than enough this season and -- unpopular opinion -- doesn't deserve her.

 

ETA:  I was just talking about this with my former viewing friend (who stopped after 312) and she reminded me that in  309, before Oliver left, Diggle told Roy "let's give them a moment together" so that Oliver and Felicity could have a moment alone. Contrast that with 315, where Felicity is told to leave by Diggle with the peanut gallery so he can talk to Oliver.  I'm not saying that Olicity is broken because it's a TV show, they can write what they want, but Oliver's treatment of Felicity on top of his MM decisions is giving me zero sympathy for him.

Edited March 8, 2015 by statsgirl

[AyChihuahua]

I really go back and forth on this topic, as I have a lot of built-up love for both of them from the first two seasons, but this season has, IMO, hurt them both.  However, I think if I were friends with Felicity IRL, I'd hate Oliver's guts, and if I were friends with Oliver IRL, I'd tell him to quit screwing with her head--fish or cut bait, kid.  

Edited March 8, 2015 by AyChihuahua

[kismet]

I think a lot of people misunderstand the passion for Olicity tbh. Just because people are rooting for them to be together doesn't mean we want it to happen now now now! I'd rather they were written properly, engagingly, than have all this accelerated angst.

I would have preferred if they had stuck to just being friends this season, maybe had some confirmation that Oliver loves Felicity but he kept it to himself because he knows deep down he wasn't ready. Felicity, oblivious, could have started dating Ray without it all being about Oliver and we still could have had him pining a little but believing he was right to keep away because it's not fair to dangle those maybes. And over the course of the season, Felicity would realize that Ray isn't right for her because she loves Oliver too. And they slowly move towards something while still being friends. That way, we could have done without all this bitterness that lingers in all of their scenes of late. The genuine friendship is what I'm missing most from Olicity at the moment. I personally would have been more than happy to wait until s4 for any sort of romantic relationship between them.

Don't get me wrong, I haven't hated all of their scenes this season and I thought their date was wonderful and real, but I just feel like they accelerated this relationship perhaps too soon. And introducing a third party love interest after feelings have been confessed just ends up leaving a bitter taste in my mouth, even though Felicity has every right to move on. Love triangles just don't make anyone look all that great tbh.

Sadly though, I think this has proven that the EP's can only write a great romance when they don't actually write it.

Thanks! This is what I have been feeling all season.

[quarks]

 They've barely even touched each other, and they've been glaring a lot more than heart-eyeing. 

 

To be fair, that was also true before - in the first season they had the very rare cheek cupping or shoulder touch, but that was about it. In the second season they had the brief hugs and shoulder touches and occasional swinging on ropes. And that was about it.  They've glared at each other since season one, so that isn't new either.  This season they've had more hugs, as recently as a couple of episodes ago, and even in the last episode they had heart eyes - one of the reasons Ray/Felicity felt like it was taking place in an entirely different movie where Felicity had not just been looking into Oliver's eyes and watching him as she left the Foundry.

 

What is different this year, I'd agree, beyond the reduction in amusing banter, is the emotional support. It isn't completely absent - it was there in "The Origins of Felicity Smoak," for instance, and in "The Calm" and "The Climb."  It was briefly there in "Nanda Parbat," when Oliver told Felicity this was for Thea. It was around for a total of 30 seconds in "Uprising."  But it's not at the level of the "You are not done fighting!" speech, and more importantly, it's been almost completely absent or countered in some major moments, namely, in "Draw Back Your Bow," when Oliver finally decides to go talk to Felicity, only to see her kissing Ray; "The Uprising," when Oliver returns, shares a nice reassuring hug, and then is stunned to hear that she's not enthusiastic about the teaming up with a mass murderer plan; "Nanda Parbat," when Oliver, figuring that one death per season is probably all his current contract can handle, heads off to not die again, and Felicity heads off to go take care of Ray; and  "Sara," when Oliver is mourning Sara's death, and instead of saying "You are not going to die down here!" Felicity instead heads off, and ends up working with Ray.  

 

(Bonus negative for that last one since, as I grumbled before but will keep grumbling about, the show made this huge point of saying last year that Felicity had finally realized that she could be more than an IT girl, meaning working with Team Arrow, suddenly wanting more from life meant....working as an admin assistant. Ok then.) 

 

Notably, three of those four moments later involved Ray. And I think that's part of the problem.  The show needs to convince us that Ray is a convincing romantic hero so we'll tune in for the spinoff, and wants (not needs) to show us that Felicity has other options besides Oliver.  Thus Felicity and Ray, since Laurel, beyond being caught up in her own "Yes, this vigilante thing is an appropriate response to grief," deal, started off the season as one of the more hated characters on Arrow, not really the best person to help launch a spinoff, and Felicity's previous in show options were limited: Diggle and Roy are matched up with others, Quentin is a bad move for any number of reasons, and Barry, Cisco, and Eddie are on a different show. So, Ray.

 

Thus the narrative need (not the in character need; it's a bit different) to have Felicity and Oliver not giving each other emotional support at certain moments - because if things are good with them, there's no real need for her to turn to Ray.  At the same time, the show also has a narrative/emotional need to continue with the Oliver/Felicity romance, which is making the Ray/Felicity romance look shallow.

 

And the thing is, there's nothing wrong with shallow - frankly, I think the Ray/Felicity relationship would play out much better if everyone was treating it as just that, shallow - like Isabel/Oliver last year, or any number of casual hookups on television. X-Files let Scully do this in the middle of her ongoing will they/won't they with Mulder, for instance, and it worked fine. Or the Xander/Faith one time hook-up.  But instead, the show is trying to play it as romantic, which I don't think is working as well - primarily because to have this romance, they've had to force Felicity to leave Oliver at low moments.

 

Which in turn leads to the issue that in past episodes, when Oliver and Felicity fought, which they did often, they always ended the episode on good terms. This season, they're not always doing that, even though they've been back to good terms by the next episode, in part because the show has wanted her to go off with Ray. And that leads back to what I think is a pretty valid complaint about this season: very often, narrative choices seem driven by plot needs or outside needs, not character.  (It doesn't help, of course, that the overall plot of this season feels, at least to me, a bit muddled.) It's not really in Felicity's character to leave Oliver when he's not yelling at her and clearly in pain over the loss of a friend, but it is in the narrative need of the show to ensure that Felicity is shown to have other romantic options/Ray is shown to be a romantic option.  

 

And what's frustrating is that it doesn't have to be this way - the show has had several episodes where character drove plot, not the other way around - even this season. So the show can do it, and maybe, if/once it stops getting used as a launching pad for DC spinoffs, it might get back to that.

Edited March 8, 2015 by quarks

[Password]

Damn did Oliver really dismiss Felicity from discussions? Sigh. Where are they going with this? I'd never think he'd do that. Partners? Cripes.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Damn did Oliver really dismiss Felicity from discussions? Sigh. Where are they going with this? I'd never think he'd do that. Partners? Cripes.

 

No, both times it was Digg who asked if he could have the room. And both times, EBR played it like Felicity was very reluctant to leave and kept looking at D and O. Broke my heart.

[Password]

Oh I see. Poor thing. Getting left out of decisions.

[SmallScreenDiva]

Oh I see. Poor thing. Getting left out of decisions.

 

Ooops, I may be wrong. I think the first time Oliver asked if they could leave him alone with Nyssa. So that included everybody. The second time was upstairs at Verdant and Dig asked for the room. But yeah, both times Felicity looked like she didn't want to leave.

[Password]

So...just a whole lot of dismissing. I don't even know why I watch anymore.

Was the point they were trying to make that Felicity is now not even part of partner decisions or did it just come across that way and make her feel like that was happening.

[olicityfan25]

I think this is going somewhere. With her being left out, or being completely written out of the lair. 

 

How would it look to the team that all those times she wasn't there and then the one time she's there she gets injured? It would really play with their minds.