Heartaches, Bromances, True Love and Team Arrow: the Relationships Thread

[AyChihuahua]

I was rewatching 2.23, and had a thought: Oliver feels all guilty that he "killed" Slade rather than curing him. If he had cured him, and Slade had survived, wouldn't Slade still have come after Oliver? It clearly wasn't just the Mirakuru, since he still wanted Oliver dead after he was cured. Obviously his plan would have had to be different (no Mirakuru army), but I think he'd still at least go after Oliver's loved ones.

The whole Slade thing makes me sad. He and Oliver used to be pretty good friends, other than their first meeting when Slade nearly murdered him in extremely cold blood. They had each other's backs.

[Genki]

The whole Slade thing makes me sad. He and Oliver used to be pretty good friends, other than their first meeting when Slade nearly murdered him in extremely cold blood. They had each other's backs.

 

I agree, I had a hope that there would be a "reluctant ally" situation between Oliver and Slade (Like Diggle & Deadshot) in future seasons after S2 and the "crazy" parts of a 5 year Mirakuru overdose wore off. This was one of the reasons the return was disappointing for me in S3 because Slade was just straight up cray-cray still, and some of the layer he had as a character was lost when he became the villain.

[Happy Harpy]

I was rewatching 2.23, and had a thought: Oliver feels all guilty that he "killed" Slade rather than curing him. If he had cured him, and Slade had survived, wouldn't Slade still have come after Oliver? It clearly wasn't just the Mirakuru, since he still wanted Oliver dead after he was cured. Obviously his plan would have had to be different (no Mirakuru army), but I think he'd still at least go after Oliver's loved ones.

The whole Slade thing makes me sad. He and Oliver used to be pretty good friends, other than their first meeting when Slade nearly murdered him in extremely cold blood. They had each other's backs.

I still can make no sense whatsoever out of Slade resenting Oliver without the Mirakuru-induced delirium. I fanwank that the cure worked on the physical level, but not on his brain and the drug is still affecting his mental state.

I also felt that Oliver gave up too fast on Slade in the flashbacks, whereas he wouldn't give up on Roy later. Maybe the disaster with Slade inspired him not to, but still.

 

I don't get the Shado thing either. I don't understand why the writers didn't have Shado and Slade get together instead of Oliver/Shado, and kept both of them as his mentors. Come to think of it, I wonder if the writers didn't realize it and reproduced it to a certain extent with Maseo/Katana.

Instead, there was de facto a triangle but it didn't play onscreen. I did see chemistry between M.Bennett and C.Jade, but I don't think it was ever exploited in a romantic way. There's one scene that could be taken as Slade being jealous, IIRC, but no other build-up.

 

I wish they had made Malcolm kill Moira instead of Slade, if she had to die -my opinion would be "no", but well- and since they were to ruin him anyway in S3, at least for me re:using Thea as a pawn.

Imo Slade would have made a better anti-hero/anti-villain than Malcolm can ever be, precisely because of his close relationship as friends/brothers in arms/mentor-disciple etc. with Oliver, which was deeper and more complex, I think, than Oliver/Malcolm.

Actually, I agree with you , I'd even like for it to happen with a Slade back in his right mind (see fanwank above) and Oliver. I don't think that they could ever be friends like before again because Moira's ghost would be between them. But if Slade killed her while still sick and therefore irresponsible for his actions, it could be possible for them to at least coexist. Hey, Malcolm had Oliver's father killed and they do coexist, after all.

Edited September 21, 2015 by Happy Harpy

[kismet]

Yeah they fumbled the whole Slade revenge because of the non-existent love triangle. If you're gonna have a love triangle than you actually need to show it or at least reference it at some point prior to making it the whole thesis point of your revenge plan. There were very few romantic moments between Shado & either of the men. I just don't think the writers thought that they needed to show Shado/OQ/Slade. But it would have made a better arc to either show the triangle or just not have it all (my preference).

[Velocity23]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Source: http://thisisbananners.tumblr.com/post/129764255384/olicity-souffles-1x15-4x01

Edited September 24, 2015 by Velocity23

[Guest]

What. OMG. Haha, that's an awesome parallel. 

[bijoux]

So, do we think he has Fall Out Boy on as background music during dinner?

[dtissagirl]

So, do we think he has Fall Out Boy on as background music during dinner?

 

That would be legit grounds for a break-up.

Edited September 24, 2015 by dtissagirl

[kismet]

The funniest thing is I feel like Fall Out Boy & OQ were both resurrected from the dead about the same time. All the sudden Fall Out Boy was nowhere for 5 or so years and now is everywhere in the last 3 years. Maybe they were stuck on Lian Yu as well. Maybe OQ is the reason for their rebirth as well. Would laugh hysterically if they make a cameo appearance before the series is over. It's just a weird coincidence.

[dtissagirl]

Wait, Fall Out Boy still actually exists?

 

/hipster

[kismet]

Wait, Fall Out Boy still actually exists?

 

/hipster

Yep, at least three (maybe more) major hits that have gotten major airway play in the last 3 summers. Plus their new album I think did well on the charts. They had late night tv show gigs & had a national tour. They even made it back onto pop & rock radio stations promotional materials. TV stations & sports use their new songs for promos. They are back.

Edited September 24, 2015 by kismet

[bijoux]

The funniest thing is I feel like Fall Out Boy & OQ were both resurrected from the dead about the same time. All the sudden Fall Out Boy was nowhere for 5 or so years and now is everywhere in the last 3 years. Maybe they were stuck on Lian Yu as well. Maybe OQ is the reason for their rebirth as well. Would laugh hysterically if they make a cameo appearance before the series is over. It's just a weird coincidence.

Awesome. Musical guest at Oliver's surprise birthday party? LOL

[tv echo]

Regarding the Sara & Laurel relationship - this dialogue between Mari/Vixen and her sister Kusasa came across as so meta (is that the right word?) to me that I have to wonder if it was intentional...

 

Mari: "I've heard about sisters always stealing the younger one's stuff."
Kuasa: "I've stolen nothing. I've merely reclaimed what was always mine by right."

 

https://twitter.com/cwseed/status/647544298888523776
(you might have to unmute the sound)

Edited September 28, 2015 by tv echo

[dtissagirl]

...Wow.

[Sakura12]

Wow, now we know what their thought process was.

[Guest]

Um…maybe they didn't realize the implications? Oh, who am I kidding? They totally knew.

 

Also…gross.

[Morrigan2575]

From the Social Media Thread

 

I think there was supposed to be a triangle but the writing was so terrible it looked like Oliver was in love with Laurel but sleeping with her sister in one episode, then in love with Felicity the next.

 

 

That was the plan maybe in s2. But KC has been talking about F/O/L triangle in s3. When she was nowhere close to a triangle.

 

There was nothing, I mean NOTHING in S2 that ever hinted at a Love Triangle between S/O/L or L/O/F.  

 

By their own admission O/S was just a delay tactic to postpone Olicity (after setting it up big time in 201-210 and even 213) and to set up the "gotcha" I love You in 223.  MG even referred to O/S as a roadblock (not by name, but talking about Baricity being a roadblock and saying another Olicity roadblock was coming up soon).  Hell, apparently it wasn't even supposed to be O/S as the couple, it was supposed to be Oliver/Isabel (yuck!) 

 

There was nothing filmed to support an S/O/L triangle and there was nothing hinted at or even suggested in interviews by any of the cast/crew (other than KC) to suggest anything was ever planned.

[HighwayFlower]

By choosing to use Sara as the roadblock to Olicity, just shows they were putting no thought into Olver being with Laurel. Having him flip back to Laurel after yet again being with Sara would just be gross!

Edited September 30, 2015 by HighwayFlower

[Guest]

If there was a love triangle we would have seen longing shots from Laurel as she watched Oliver gaze adoringly at Felicity. Maybe even some awkwardness between Laurel and Felicity. There was NONE of that.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Guest

[Sakura12]

I thought Oliver choosing Sara again put the final nail in Oliver/Laurel coffin and "triangle". He even rejected Laurel's advance before that after he found out Sara was alive. While Sara/Oliver was a roadblock for Olicity, it was still closer to a "triangle" then anything with Laurel. 

 

There has never even been a hint of a triangle between Sara/Oliver/Laurel besides in the past. Once Sara was back there was no longing looks at Laurel or any indication that Oliver was even thinking about Laurel. Oliver was thinking about Felicity and trying to save Sara's soul. Laurel wasn't even a blip on his radar. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sakura12

[bijoux]

From the Social Media Thread

 

There was nothing, I mean NOTHING in S2 that ever hinted at a Love Triangle between S/O/L or L/O/F.  

 

By their own admission O/S was just a delay tactic to postpone Olicity (after setting it up big time in 201-210 and even 213) and to set up the "gotcha" I love You in 223.  MG even referred to O/S as a roadblock (not by name, but talking about Baricity being a roadblock and saying another Olicity roadblock was coming up soon).  Hell, apparently it wasn't even supposed to be O/S as the couple, it was supposed to be Oliver/Isabel (yuck!) 

Yeesh. This I did not know. Praise whoever scrapped that idea. Though not a love story, Sara and Oliver and their relationship as it was made sense at that point in time. They both benefited from it in a way and had a friend they could lean on. But Isabel? Shudder.

[HighwayFlower]

Sara and Oliver never even came off as a couple, just two friends seeking comfort from someone they knew understood them. Sara showed no jealousy over Felicity, and Oliver only showed worry and concern, not heartache over Sara's departure. The friendship they had was actually really good and another reason they should have kept her as Black Canary.

[Delphi]

Well I wonder whether or not Isabelle's story would have been written differently if Summer hadn't gotten pregnant. Perhaps she wouldn't have had an affair with Robert Queen and it wouldn't have been nearly as gross.

[Morrigan2575]

Well I wonder whether or not Isabelle's story would have been written differently if Summer hadn't gotten pregnant. Perhaps she wouldn't have had an affair with Robert Queen and it wouldn't have been nearly as gross.

I think you have the timing wrong, by the time Summer Glau would have gotten pregnant it was very late in S2, pretty much the last 3 maybe 4 episodes.

[dtissagirl]

I think it was filming Sequestered that got Summer Glau out of Arrow.

[Guest]

I'm glad it wasn't Oliver/Isabel, although I can definitely see some hints now that I think about it. But I'll never really understand why he ever trusted her when HER NAME WAS ON THE DAMN LIST. Seriously, use the correct brain, Oliver. Tsk tsk.

[Morrigan2575]

I'm glad it wasn't Oliver/Isabel, although I can definitely see some hints now that I think about it. But I'll never really understand why he ever trusted her when HER NAME WAS ON THE DAMN LIST. Seriously, use the correct brain, Oliver. Tsk tsk.

Agreed, the idea of Oliver/Isabel being a couple in S2 bothers me a lot, mostly for how Isabel treated Felicity.  I don't think I would have been able to find any enjoyment in Olicity after that.  The thing that worked for O/S and eventually O/F (for me) is that Sara/Felicity really seemed to like each other and be friends neither female was put down in that "triangle" (and I don't even think that was really a triangle)

[Delphi]

I think you have the timing wrong, by the time Summer Glau would have gotten pregnant it was very late in S2, pretty much the last 3 maybe 4 episodes.

Oh yeah, you seem to be right.

Still touch, originally they didn't know what they were going to do with the character. I think originally they could have planned to keep her a good person who hadn't had an affair with Oliver's dad but after they made the decision to make her Ravager they needed to come up with some sort of motivation for it.

[catrox14]

Re the sisters discussion in Vixen.

 

So, I'm going to say that I think that is on purpose and sets up the spin Arrow/LoT will use for Sara and Laurel, that it was really Sara that took Laurel's life. 

[wingster55]

I honestly didn't even think of Sara or Laurel when watching

[tv echo]

But that would make no sense, if that's the spin they go for.  Sara didn't choose to become the Canary - she did so in order to survive.  And Laurel's BC name was taken from Sara's Canary name, not vice-versa.  Etc., etc.

Edited September 30, 2015 by tv echo

[Starfish35]

Re the sisters discussion in Vixen.

So, I'm going to say that I think that is on purpose and sets up the spin Arrow/LoT will use for Sara and Laurel, that it was really Sara that took Laurel's life.

What sisters discussion? I don't watch that show, so I don't know what was said.

[Chaser]

Sometimes I think the writers shade each other. 

[Sakura12]

The way the Arrow writers wrote for Laurel with her saying she was always destined for the mask, they made it seem like Sara stole Laurel's birthright and she claimed it after Sara was killed. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sakura12

[tv echo]

This.

Regarding the Sara & Laurel relationship - this dialogue between Mari/Vixen and her sister Kusasa came across as so meta (is that the right word?) to me that I have to wonder if it was intentional...

 

Mari: "I've heard about sisters always stealing the younger one's stuff."
Kuasa: "I've stolen nothing. I've merely reclaimed what was always mine by right."

 

https://twitter.com/cwseed/status/647544298888523776
(you might have to unmute the sound)

[catrox14]

But that would make no sense, if that's the spin they go for.  Sara didn't choose to become the Canary - she did so in order to survive.  And Laurel's BC name was taken from Sara's Canary name, not vice-versa.  Etc., etc.

 

They never do things that make any sense with Sara and Laurel.  I'm saying I would not be a bit surprised if the show takes the avenue so that it props Laurel even more.

 

They put in dialogue that implied that Sara stole Oliver from Laurel in the flashbacks. They put in dialogue in s3  that implied Laurel was always destined to be the Black Canary which never existed before.

 

I didn't watch Vixen. I was going only off the bit of dialogue that was mentioned here. '

Edited September 30, 2015 by catrox14

[Starfish35]

This.

Thanks.

[Chaser]

The way the Arrow writers wrote for Laurel with her saying she was always destined for the mask, they made it seem like Sara stole Laurel's birthright and she claimed it after Sara was killed. 

It feels like two people wrote the Laurel - BC storyline. One half was sticking with the 'destiny' concept concieved at the start and the other half was going with 'honor your sister.'  There was very little conhesion and did nothing for Laurel and I'm not sure what it says about the Laurel and Sara relationship.

[HighwayFlower]

They also had dialogue that suggested Laurel knew Sara had a crush on Oliver and sabotaged her chance to meet him, then went after him herself.

Destined for the mask has to be one of the stupidest lines ever written. Well.... Knowing someone in your bones was pretty bad too...

[Sakura12]

They were going with "Because Comics" instead of the narrative we've been watching on the show. There was nothing pointing towards Laurel being "destined" for the mask in the show's writing. Sara died and she just put on a suit and went out there without having any training. Even Paul Blackthorne had no idea why Laurel would want to become a vigilante. 

 

He was going by the show that was telling us that Laurel was the golden perfect child that always followed the rules and became a Lawyer, while Sara was the trouble maker that always broke the rules. Sara did what she wanted regardless of the consequences. A vigilante breaks the law or doesn't trust the law to do anything. Sara had the makings of vigilante even if she didn't go to hell and back. 

Edited September 30, 2015 by Sakura12

[HighwayFlower]

Laurel still makes zero sense as a vigilante. No "reasons" they gave her have made any sense with the character presented.

[kismet]

For the record, there has only really been 1 official love triangle onscreen and that was Tommy/Laurel/Oliver in s1.

 

There have been relationships in which the people involved have perhaps had overlapping or undiscovered feelings for another, perhaps even feelings in denial. And the writers paid close homage to love triangle tropes with s3 Raylicity, but in actuality it was never a triangle because OQ was never an option for FS in s3 by his own choice. The minute he became an option, FS seized that opportunity leaving RP behind without a second thought. But it did feel like a love triangle at points, even though it wasn't.

 

There have also been metaphorical triangles (L/O/F & Arrow/FS/Oliver) that influence the writers & fans alike. However, these triangles never happened on the screen and are more just interpretations or the result of show evolution. If its not on the screen then it did not happen, its not canon.

Edited September 30, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

I really don't see it like that. I don't think love triangles only happen when there's one character who's torn between two romantic interests [which was Laurel in S1, true]. Imo, they've used the trope in every possible angle imaginable, big and small scale. Sara's original premise. Diggle/Carly/Dead Brother's memory. Helena coming back into town and going after Oliver's girlfriend. Felicity's interest in Barry causing Oliver to be jealous. Oliver/Shado/Slade. Felicity finding out about Oliver and Isabel. Isabel sleeping with father and son. Palmer's entire year. There have been enough triangles to last them seventeen seasons already.

[kismet]

I really don't see it like that. I don't think love triangles only happen when there's one character who's torn between two romantic interests [which was Laurel in S1, true]. Imo, they've used the trope in every possible angle imaginable, big and small scale. Sara's original premise. Diggle/Carly/Dead Brother's memory. Helena coming back into town and going after Oliver's girlfriend. Felicity's interest in Barry causing Oliver to be jealous. Oliver/Shado/Slade. Felicity finding out about Oliver and Isabel. Isabel sleeping with father and son. Palmer's entire year. There have been enough triangles to last them seventeen seasons already.

I see your points. Totally, agree there are many ways to make & use triangles. And these writers have certainly mined those tropes and created some of their own along the way.

 

But I was taking a more literal interpretation of a love triangle. Which is more factual and can be proved with concrete evidence. I prefer to think of love triangles as more literal and less potential/metaphorical. Otherwise, my mind can wonder away and spin a lot fantastical theories & combinations. If we start talking about all the possible angles & dynamics that can involve 3 people in romantic situations - then KC does have a point that in her mind there was a love triangle between F/O/L. Her character does seem to see herself in many stories/relationships. In her character's mind, she probably does believe that Oliver has lingering feelings for her (which is in character for LL). It's not in the story or in the narrative but its in her character's mindset.

 

I tend to find literal love triangles a really cliche way to tell a story. It also seems unrealistic. Some romantic dramas & dramedies can write them very well (looking ar you Shonda Rimes), but these writers I don't think are good at literal triangles so I hope they stay away from them. But everyone is free to have their own interpretation of love triangles and how to use them. Honestly, though I really don't think it matters for me personally when I am watching a show so long as all the relationship dynamics are well written.

Edited September 30, 2015 by kismet

[dtissagirl]

If we start talking about all the possible angles & dynamics that can involve 3 people in romantic situations - then KC does have a point that in her mind there was a love triangle between F/O/L. Her character does seem to see herself in many stories/relationships. In her character's mind, she probably does believe that Oliver has lingering feelings for her (which is in character for LL). It's not in the story or in the narrative but its in her character's mindset.

 

I REALLY disagree with this, sorry. I think KC is talking out of her ass. The way they wrote Oliver/Felicity as a romantic storyline separated their relationship completely from Laurel. And on top of that, there's been zero reaction from Laurel in canon to what she feels/thinks about O/F. Because she's NOT AT ALL part of a romantic triangle with the other two.

[kismet]

I REALLY disagree with this, sorry. I think KC is talking out of her ass. The way they wrote Oliver/Felicity as a romantic storyline separated their relationship completely from Laurel. And on top of that, there's been zero reaction from Laurel in canon to what she feels/thinks about O/F. Because she's NOT AT ALL part of a romantic triangle with the other two.

No offense taken :) I agree with you that I think she is completely piecing together shreds of half-truths, wishes & hopes to fit her own beliefs on the matter. There is no evidence on the show that the writers wrote a L/O/F triangle.

 

Just playing the devil's advocate - KC is talking from her character's perspective which in her interpretation probably did have her in some type of triangle. After all she was the former LI & now FS is the new LI - there is a triangle there with very weak connections but it can exist in some version or interpretation of a canon (even if its a BTS writers room/TPTB debate).

[looptab]

I have to agree that there is nothing in show supporting the idea of a L/O/F triangle. Nor I can see how KC could be talking from LL's perspective. I believe KC thinks there's a triangle going on in that Laurel has* to work with her ex and his current girlfriend on a daily basis. I can't imagine that would be a comfortable situation most of the times, maybe so does she. But this would be Cassidy's opinion, not Laurel's.

 

*She doesn't really have to, but that's another story.

[tv echo]

Felicity/EBR and GG tidbit from The Flash S1 blu-ray features...

Part of the fun has been the crossovers between shows. Gustin’s forensics specialist Barry Allen was introduced in “Arrow’s” Season 2. He connected there with fellow science prodigy Felicity Smoak, played by Emily Bett Rickards. Their chemistry together was so good, Rickards was asked to tone it down as we learn in the bonus features. After all, her character and Oliver Queen are the romantic pair in “Arrow.” Sheesh.

But then Rickards – like Gustin – has great chemistry with every actor they work with....

http://hamptonroads.com/blog/763805/2015/10/dc-wins-tv-race-%E2%80%9C-flash%E2%80%9D

 

Personally, I think EBR and GG have good friend chemistry but not romantic chemistry - but that's just my opinion.

Edited October 3, 2015 by tv echo

[tarotx]

I think they have romantic chemistry. It's just of the cute high school sweethearts variety. GG has a similar vibe with CP. I think it's just GG's vibe. IMO.

Edited October 3, 2015 by tarotx

[Morrigan2575]

I agree, I think they have good romantic chemistry but in a young HS way. If they were on a teen drama they'd be the cute/sweet/non angst romantic pairing.