S06.E14: Page 23

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

(Posting this while monitoring radar during yet another bad storm -- and guess what the forecast for Sunday night is?)

It's a sign.

[Camera One]

I like Tinkerbelle, but that scene was ridiculous.  She was the exposition fairy for half of it, too.  

TINKERBELLE "I showed you your future with the pixie dust.  The one with the lion tattoo.  You should be with him.  He's still out there."

Wouldn't he be happy with Marian at that point?  I guess she doesn't know that, but she wouldn't know he was still free

TINKERBELLE: Nothing and no one does. Pixie dust doesn't dictate anything. It just shows you the possibilities.  It's up to you.

What "possibilities"?  There's only one possibility?

TINKERBELLE: You're just saying that to hide the real reason that you won't take a chance on love.  You don't think you deserve it.

Can this get any more after-school special?  Why would she say this stuff when there was an audience of villagers watching?  Privately to Regina, maybe. 

Was this the first chance Tink got to come back and "help" Regina?  She wasn't a fairy at this point, so did she walk to that location?  I forgot how she appeared.  This made me appreciate Blue all the more for not caring when Regina fell off the balcony.  

REGINA: I'm going to spare this wretched person's life to prove she's wrong.  I do love you.  I love all of you.

How stupid is she?  You say "I love all of you" after terrorizing them and the villagers will believe her?  And what's with the dumb need for "the love of the people".  Zelena was also all over it, and acting like it's rocket science Dorothy would have the love of the people when she, who killed random Munchkins, did not.  

No Bandit Snow meant less character assassination but she didn't remain unscathed from that.  I mean, what was the deal with the fake wig in the hut anyway?  Cut and run?  It's like the Writers decided since they had Tink, SHE would walk up instead of Snow when some poor villager was about to be sacrificed.  It makes no sense why Snow would remain in this kingdom at all when another kingdom is a 5 minute walk away.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Camera One

[superloislane]

The Tink cameo gets worse when you realize that in Quite a Common Fairy in season 3 which takes place at least 30 years after this episode, Tink didn't even know that Regina hadn't gone into the tavern to meet Robin! So I guess she just forgot?

[Shanna Marie]

Tink's pep talk to Regina reminded me of a line from a movie, in which one character said to another, "In your case, poor self esteem is just good sense." But in this case, a woman who chose to avoid meeting her soulmate because it would have meant giving up on her chance at getting revenge on a child (and that was presented as the reason back when it was brought up, not feeling unworthy), who murdered her husband, who tried to murder her stepdaughter, who's murdering people left and right because she's mad at them for liking her stepdaughter more than her, and who threatens to murder more people until they love her really isn't worthy of love. Maybe in the agape, love for all mankind way, but this isn't someone who needs to get into a romantic relationship. Why would you inflict that on the man (who in this case was likely already married and had a kid)?

And I still don't buy Regina at that time hating herself the most. Her problems were because she put herself and her own wishes ahead of everything and everyone else. Yes, she was her own worst enemy because everything she did to make herself happy only made her life worse, but that was still because she was willing to do anything, even destroy people she loved, in order to make herself happy. This is not a person who hates herself. Now, if Hook had shot that arrow at just about any time in his life, from the time his father abandoned him until the present, it would have come straight at him, but Regina? I find it very hard to believe that she ever hated herself more than she hated Snow, unless maybe she was furious at herself for failing to kill Snow.

[Mathius]

54 minutes ago, superloislane said:

The Tink cameo gets worse when you realize that in Quite a Common Fairy in season 3 which takes place at least 30 years after this episode, Tink didn't even know that Regina hadn't gone into the tavern to meet Robin! So I guess she just forgot?

Regina also was shocked that Tink was no longer a fairy...but that fact seemed pretty obvious during this retconned flashback.  

[KingOfHearts]

For Outlaw Queen, this episode didn't accomplish much more than fanfiction could. Yes, in an alternate universe they could be happy together. But it doesn't help for that to be canon if it's not really Regina and it's not really Robin. It spites OQ shippers more than it gives them any satisfaction. The writers essentially said, "This is is what could have happened, but we're more interested in angst and watching Regina suffer." Not that I ever was on board with OQ, but we can all agree their fans got g*****. Robin didn't get a proper sendoff when he died, and bringing him back was beating a dead horse. All the writers accomplished was reopening wounds.

Edited March 29, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Rushmoras]

Usually I like Regina/Evil Queen centric episodes, but... god damn this was the most boring and pointless episodes of all time. I wander whether at one point the actors have said: "Wait hold up. I don't think this is logical or even remotely believable even by our standards". Even if they did, I guess the producers answered: "Shut up, do your roles and get your money".

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Not that I ever was on board with OQ, but we can all agree their fans got g*****. Robin didn't get a proper sendoff when he died, and bringing him back was beating a dead horse. All the writers accomplished was reopening wounds.

LOL when the EQ said "Oh sorry you didn't get to say goodbye" to Regina.  Because what was the point?  That guy didn't even have Robin's personality.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

7 hours ago, superloislane said:

The Tink cameo gets worse when you realize that in Quite a Common Fairy in season 3 which takes place at least 30 years after this episode, Tink didn't even know that Regina hadn't gone into the tavern to meet Robin! So I guess she just forgot?

Reading your post was a classic "Oh Shit!" moment.  

[KingOfHearts]

10 hours ago, superloislane said:

The Tink cameo gets worse when you realize that in Quite a Common Fairy in season 3 which takes place at least 30 years after this episode, Tink didn't even know that Regina hadn't gone into the tavern to meet Robin! So I guess she just forgot?

I knew Tink meeting Regina again before Neverland was going to create some sort of plot hole. Congrats to you for finding it.

[Rushmoras]

13 hours ago, superloislane said:

The Tink cameo gets worse when you realize that in Quite a Common Fairy in season 3 which takes place at least 30 years after this episode, Tink didn't even know that Regina hadn't gone into the tavern to meet Robin! So I guess she just forgot?

Maybe she drank that memory tea? :D

[Camera One]

Quote

Hook and Snow finally got a one-on-one conversation that lasted longer than a minute for the first time in the entire run of the series! I don’t even care about the rest of the episode, I finally got something marked off my OUAT bucket list!

I was glad too, and their solo scene actually lasted 2 minutes (just noticed on the video clip).  And then I remembered... Emma hasn't had that long a scene with Snow since "Lost Girl".  Now will Snow and Emma finally get a 2-minute solo scene before this season ends?  The fact that they might not makes me sad.  

Granted, even this scene with Hook was half about Regina... of course it would be.  Which doesn't give me much hope.  If Snow does get to talk to Emma for 2 minutes before the end of the show, it will no doubt be about Regina, or Hook, but not their own relationship.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

It's odd that after Robin died, Regina was literally angry enough to kill. She acted like her life was over. But once Fake!Robin entered the picture, she quickly realized he wasn't her real boyfriend. She shrugged and let him go like it was no big deal. She went through all the effort of bringing him to Storybrooke, then almost immediately moved on. Why would the writers give the angst machine herself a plot line like this, then drop it so nonchalantly? It's as if they brought Robin back just to resolve the Evil Queen and do damage control. For the first time ever, it wasn't really about Regina... or was it only about Regina?

[Camera One]

3 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

But once Fake!Robin entered the picture, she quickly realized he wasn't her real boyfriend. She shrugged and let him go like it was no big deal. She went through all the effort of bringing him to Storybrooke, then almost immediately moved on. 

I thought that was weird too.  But in some ways, it's typical of the writing.  Because we as the audience saw that Wish Robin was a jerk and wanted nothing to do with Regina, the writers just made Regina come to that realization in an instant with "it was like kissing a photograph".  A normal person would not be able to just let go and "give up" like that, especially someone as obsessive as Regina.  

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I thought that was weird too.  But in some ways, it's typical of the writing.  Because we as the audience saw that Wish Robin was a jerk and wanted nothing to do with Regina, the writers just made Regina come to that realization in an instant with "it was like kissing a photograph".  A normal person would not be able to just let go and "give up" like that, especially someone as obsessive as Regina.  

It makes her look worse for her hypocritical speech to Zelena in 6x09. She can't really use her feelings of grief as an excuse if she was so unphased by Fake!Robin. She went from vindictive to indifferent. Her emotions over Zelena and Robin got a complete reset. It's as if 6A never happened.

Edited March 31, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

And now Zelena is all needy and spending extra time with her former enemies after barricading herself in a farmhouse all season.  I did enjoy her snarky comments, but these characters just act the way the Writers need them to act in whatever given episode.

[justmythoughts]

I am definetly not over this episode yet. So the EQ gets her happy ending just because Saint Regina merged their hearts together? Hence, Rumple should be the paladino of justice and love since he had his heart purified by that wizard or whomever. Rumple is the perfect example that Snow was right: not everyone is reedemable. Although much predictable, Regina reabsorbing EQ would have solved this mess better. Because Regina had her heart full of pure love for several episodes and had changed nothing, EQ gains some love in her piece of black chalk and is a completely different person. Oh yeah, the REC. 

Emma looked much better in those last episodes, healthier. She was right to demand honesty in their relationship, but I would have liked to hear a real conversation between her and Killian (whom BTW she called Hook during their arguing). Both of them have kept Secrets and It should take a long DR to solve it.

Well... Finally I can't complain about 2 things: the script spoiler of Snow and Emma was a kept scene and Snow was happy for her daughter, and a scene between Snow and Hook! 

Basically all the other plot holes and possível better uses for the episode you guys have already covered.

Edited March 31, 2017 by justmythoughts

[darkestboy]

Unsatisfying episode. The resolution for the Evil Queen storyline was poor even if it did throw Outlaw Queen fans a bit of a bone towards the end of it.

Emma and Hook's break up was as contrived as the whole bit with Gideon at the end as well but at least we got a nice conversation between Hook and Snow before things went to crap.

I don't really have anything else to say on this one, 5/10

[KingOfHearts]

Justin Bieber describes Regina in this episode perfectly: "If you like the way you look that much, you should go and love yourself."

Edited March 31, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[RulerofallIsurvey]

From the Spoiler thread:

3 hours ago, AshhyOut said:

What faith and respect?

Just like it should be obvious to Hook that Emma wouldn't ever not "forgive" him? Even when they weren't in a relationship she didn't hold a grudge or cut him off from her life. 

1. On faith and respect: Killian to Emma: "You're amazing."  "I always knew you could do it."  And when she was Dark Swan "I love you. No matter what you’ve done."  That's just a sample.  Might be nice for him to hear something like this in return some time.

2.  If you pay attention to the scene, you'll hear that Killian isn't worried so much that Emma will forgive him.  He's worried about his own guilt and shame in facing her mom and dad.  

When they weren't in a relationship and she didn't hold a grudge or cut him off from her life - you mean like when she kept talking about going back to NY with Henry and leaving him behind after he dropped everything and sold his ship (his home, his memory of his big brother) to find her?  Oh sure,  That'd make a guy feel secure in a relationship.  Or after Elsa came to town (after he'd jumped into a portal to follow her without knowing where) and she avoided him?  Pretty much the only real reason Emma never cut Killian off from her life is because he was persistent.  She got used to him always coming back no matter how badly she treated him.  She didn't have to work to win him over.  

[Rumsy4]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

She got used to him always coming back no matter how badly she treated him.  She didn't have to work to win him over.  

I feel like we're back in Season 3B and Season 4, becasue these are the same kind of arguments we were having then. Whenever someone pointed out how dismissively Emma was treating Hook, a bunch of people would scream "misogyny!!11". Now we're back to that again. 

[Shanna Marie]

I finally managed to watch the whole episode without it being interrupted by tornado warnings, and I have so say that a lot of it doesn't make sense. There's the inconsistency that was pointed out about Tinkerbelle, what she knew about Regina, and what Regina knew about her. Then there's that arrow. They're still really unclear on the difference between soulmates and true love. I don't see how an arrow that would allow you to gaze on the person you love most was supposed to show Robin to Regina. He might have been her designated soulmate, but she'd never even met him. She didn't want to meet him. She wanted revenge more than she wanted to meet him. I know this show has low standards on true love, but it's really hard to believe that someone she'd never met could be the person she loved most. I suspect that even without her doing the spell to alter the arrow, it would have shown her herself. Hmm, maybe that explains the "person you hate most" thing with an utter narcissist -- her spell didn't actually work. It was showing her the person she loved most.

The split Regina thing never did work. I don't think the writers were ever clear on how it worked. When Henry was saying he believed there was good in the Evil Queen and bad in Regina, I shouted at the TV, "then what was the point of all this?" For this resolution to work, we should have seen a real difference in Regina after the split, so we could see a difference after the heart blending. But what was split off? Her darker impulses, her memories of doing evil, her potential for evil? Was it just the evil split and not the personality flaws? I really don't get what they were trying to show here because it was wildly inconsistent. I did find it odd that the Evil Queen apologized to Snow when Regina never has. All that stuff about giving the Evil Queen a chance because Regina was able to reform would have had a lot more impact if we'd ever really seen a reformation from Regina, if she'd ever shown any guilt for her past crimes (interesting that this came up in an episode in which Hook was wallowing in guilt), if she'd ever apologized, if she didn't have a vault full of hearts, if she'd ever confessed about the crimes targeting them that they didn't know about, like Graham or wiping Henry's memories of her evil plans.

I guess the obliviousness runs in the family because Hook was radiating angst and misery when Snow was talking to him, and she didn't seem to notice. I wonder if the script had in mind a lower-key effect from Hook. Who knows, maybe it's not just acting and Colin was miserable having to act out these contrived scenes.

Supposedly, this weekend's storms will be over before time for the show, so maybe I'll get through a whole episode.

[Camera One]

Quote

But it's really hard to believe that someone she'd never met could be the person she loved most.

Not to mention the person she loved the most was her father.  That's why his heart was the one that was needed to enact the Dark Curse.

Quote

I guess the obliviousness runs in the family because Hook was radiating angst and misery when Snow was talking to him, and she didn't seem to notice.

I think we're supposed to believe that Hook was still planning to leave when Snow walked up, and it was her news about The Amazing Regina! that made him change his mind.  Of course, we can't know for sure because the Writer would probably be all "I would hope" he so-and-so.

Quote

I did find it odd that the Evil Queen apologized to Snow when Regina never has.

Technically, she said "And, Snow, I am so sorry for what I put you through again."  So she's only apologizing for the Sleeping Curse.  Or maybe the Monte Cristo stuff.  Or maybe the David stuff.  But who the hell knows since the apology was vague as hell.

Regina was also kinda dismissive when Snow asked about the Sleeping Curse, like yeah yeah whatever, we'll deal with that later, let's send her to her happy ending first because if what she said doesn't work or we need further clarification, who cares, right?

Edited April 1, 2017 by Camera One

[oncebluethrone]

32 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

They're still really unclear on the difference between soulmates and true love.

I think that a soulmate is the person you are destined to be with. You may never meet this person, but if you do, you will probably share true love. A true love is someone you love unconditionally. It normally refers to romantic love, but it can also be shown with familial love (Emma and Henry) or friendship (Pan and Felix (more of a trust thing)). If you share romantic true love with someone, that person is probably your soulmate unless said person dies and you meet someone else who you end up sharing true love with. Then that person is your soulmate.  An example of this is Killian, Emma, and Milah. Killian spent 200 years on a revenge quest after Milah's murder, which could signal a strong "never let go" true love, but he gave that up after he met Emma and realized he had something to live for other than his revenge. He gave up the painful memory of Milah and chose Emma meaning she is his soulmate and their relationship developed into true love. So Killian/Milah = probably true love, but not soulmates and Captain Swan = soulmates whose relationship developed into true love.

Note: Sorry about the off-topic reply. I have no idea how to respond in a different thread.

[PixiePaws1]

Just for the record..because it is worth mentioning...Emma walked in before Killian could make a final decision about burning the 'no idea how he could put the memory in it' dream catcher. He is in front of the fire and that was obviously his intention but he never makes a move to actually go through with it because Emma interupted....he might have changed his mind at the last second cos he's done that several times.

We'll never know...

Edited April 1, 2017 by PixiePaws1

[Camera One]

The Dreamcatcher scene was as ridiculous as the last time it happened (when Henry walked in, I think).  The memory was so small that Emma would have to have the superpower of super-eyesight to see it.  Plus, was there sound too?  

I'm now thinking that Emma must have seen the storybook pages.  Hook had to give them to her and David in case BFF August dropped by for their weekly game of Charades and asked about them.  Why is it that NOW, the storybook picture is so hype-accurate but no one could recognize the resemblance in Season 1?

Now I'm thinking why they didn't have Snow put all her memories from the pilot episode onto a Dreamcatcher (since anyone can do it with or without magic), so Emma could see the real story.  They could even project it at the town hall for the 30-year-anniversary.  

Edited April 1, 2017 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

3 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Now I'm thinking why they didn't have Snow put all her memories from the pilot episode onto a Dreamcatcher (since anyone can do it with or without magic), so Emma could see the real story.

Pish, tosh. Why would she need to do that? She got to see Regina's memories of Daniel's death, which is all that really matters.

The two biggest questions for this episode are how Hook got a dreamcatcher and managed to extract those specific memories in spite of having no magic and how Emma recognized exactly what was happening and who it was happening to based on that tiny snippet she saw in the dreamcatcher.

[Camera One]

I hope everyone gets to relive this ode to self-love this week.  Remember, you deserve it!

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

I hope everyone gets to relive this ode to self-love this week.  Remember, you deserve it!

If you're a mass murdering psychopath, it's because you don't love yourself enough? Do I have it right?

Edited August 9, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

The idea that Regina's biggest problem is that she didn't love herself enough is the funniest thing this show has done. The woman's a raging narcissist. She puts her wishes and desires ahead of everything and everyone else, never so much as thinking about anything from anyone else's point of view. She has almost no empathy. She can go through the exact same thing she put others through without having a moment's thought of realizing what they've experienced. She murdered her father because she thought she deserved the happy ending the curse would give her and thought that was more important than his life. She spent an entire arc whining about how unfair it was that she didn't get everything she wanted because she didn't get to murder someone who later got in the way of her happiness.

Hook's the one with the terrible case of self loathing. I guess they saw that people liked that (what we like is the fact that he feels bad about the bad things he's done. The self loathing gets a bit tiresome), so they gave it to Regina, too. There's never been any indication that Regina has any problem with herself. The whole discussion that led to the Evil Queen split was about how part of her hated not getting to be evil. That's as close as she's come to hating herself.

And then she just lets the Evil Queen go off to be happy without actually breaking the Charmings' curse. Because one moment of self awareness means all evil is forgiven and you deserve a happy ending.

And then there's the Captain Swan fight, which is so dumb. Did they even read the script after they wrote it? Emma somehow recognizes a grandfather she's never met from across the room in a distorted dreamcatcher image (not to mention how Hook got and was able to use a dreamcatcher) and somehow suddenly knows the whole story about what happened. Hook tells her that he can't live with his guilt, that he can't face David. She's angry because he didn't trust her. Those are two different things entirely. His guilt has nothing to do with trusting her. And then after she gives back the ring and basically tells him to go away and figure things out, she's surprised when he doesn't come home. Not that we really feel the impact of this because we've never actually seen them at home together. We have no idea what they'd normally be doing and how this is different. Their breaking up doesn't really decrease their screen time together.

I did love the scenes with Nemo, and the snow was beautiful. It added to the mood.

[KingOfHearts]

29 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I did love the scenes with Nemo, and the snow was beautiful. It added to the mood.

I remember the writers being surprised when people talked about finally seeing Hook and Snow having a conversation. They didn't realize that hadn't been done before. We needed more scenes like that.

[Camera One]

I agree the snow was truly beautiful.  I think that was the only thing I liked about this episode, LOL.

3 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

I remember the writers being surprised when people talked about finally seeing Hook and Snow having a conversation. They didn't realize that hadn't been done before. 

Wow, they were seriously *that* clueless?

So what did we learn about Page 23 from this episode?  Was that a storybook from the future, since it predicted "Regina" walking in and talking to Robin Hood?  Was Robin and some version of The Evil Queen destined to be soulmates?  If so, why and how?  Page 23 was one of the key mysteries of the show and it was so rewarding to see it play out.

Edited August 10, 2019 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

It would've been funnier if Cupid's Arrow or the pixie dust directed her toward the thing she loved most, and it ended up being herself. (Of course, if that were true, she wouldn't have been able to cast the Curse, but we all know how bendable those rules are.)

Regina and the Evil Queen are just the same person in different wardrobes. What if instead of Vanilla Regina, the serum split her into the Evil Queen and Mayor Mills? Mayor Mills would be like a dormant cursed personality who has no idea what's going on and only has foggy memories of S1. That would've been a LOT more interesting. She'd be Regina without any of her fairy tale memories. 

Edited August 12, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[tennisgurl]

This whole season is just a series of me going "Oh god its THIS episode" at the start of every single episode. This is the one where, because this show just cant possibly have any version of Regina be unhappy, they have to give some half assed happy ending to the Evil Queen, who is exactly like Regina no matter what they say just in a ridiculous outfit, even as she does the absolute minimal to get some kind of sorry redemption that she apparently earned because...she was sad and gave one quick apology. Like, oh great another freaking Regina episode where she cries about how sad she is and how much she cant love herself and blah blah woobie cake. Its especially rich as Tinkerbell goes on about how her greatest issue is that she "cant love herself" or whatever while the guy whos neck she just snapped because she was annoyed is lying their dead a few feet away. A bad guy presumably, but I would say that Regina's biggest problem is probably the fact that she keeps killing people and never seems to feel bad  about it! If anything, the woman is the biggest narcissist in the world!

Like I said last week, the whole obsession with having character centric episodes is really showing its strains here, not only showing us boring flashbacks of stuff we already know or, like last week, messing with established characters and facts and ruining long ruining characters, it keeps the plot so stagnant so often. Like, except for one mention, you could totally forget about the Gideon plot this week until the last few minutes. Speaking of, remember when we thought that the Land of Untold Stories would be a big thing this season? Oh how young we were!

So now Evil Queen and Evil Robin get happy endings, without actually doing anything to earn those, especially Wish Robin, who is still presumably an asshole. So happy! Stop thinking about the victims, think about Regina's tears! Her tears! That scene where she looks into the mirror, the person she "hates the most" was just embarrassing in how hard they were trying.

The fallout from Hook killing Davids father is as lame as expected, but probably for different reasons than we might have guessed. So Emma can recognize David's father, a man she has never met or seen, right away from across the room? And she is ok with Hook killing her grandpa, but is mad that he didn't trust her? While ignoring that he is clearly near tears with guilt? And then she gives the ring back and tells him to get his shit together, and is shocked that he isn't back by that evening? Its nonsense. 

I did like all the scenes with Nemo, they actually have decently interesting things to say about guilt and redemption, unlike the awkward Emma scenes, and the scene with Snow and Hook in the snow. It was very atmospheric, and while Snow did come off as her usual late seasons super overly hopeful self, it was great to see them have a scene together (finally!) and see her be so happy for Hook and accepting of him. Of course when he makes the right choice, stupid Gideon fucks it up, the little shit.

Edited August 12, 2019 by tennisgurl

[KingOfHearts]

The scene in the diner with Regina trying to convince Snow and Zelena to give the Evil Queen a chance is so bizarre. Snow's line, "Not everyone is redeemable", feels really hypocritical. Who exactly was worse than Regina? Snow has always flip-flopped between believing villains could be redeemed depending on the needs of the plot. Regina then points out that she herself was redeemable, but that's also super hypocritical because just five episodes earlier, she scoffed at Zelena for wanting to change.

The only line that really makes sense here is Zelena's: "Heroes are so gullible a few months from now to find her crushing your heart, don't blame me." After Hades, why wouldn't she be skeptical? It's odd, but Zelena's writing is usually much more in-character than any other character. (Except Hook.) Her character has some of the most believable development S5-onward.

[companionenvy]

Yeah, this episode is bizarre. Like, let's accept the premise that "our" Regina has had a perfectly handled redemption arc. Even so, if we're supposed to believe that the Evil Queen is a manifestation of her darkest impulses - well, then the EQ shouldn't be redeemable, because she is literally Regina with all of the good parts taken out. I mean, this isn't a nature vs. nurture thing; if it were somehow possible to extract only the most negative parts of a personality, you're not going to wind up with a good and functional human being. Some people's dark selves would be worse than others, but if you are selecting for precisely for qualities like anger and removing qualities like compassion, that simply isn't going to add up to someone redeemable. It is going to add up to a sociopath. Which, as y'all know, I think regular Regina, as depicted in many of her scenes, essentially is, but even if I didn't, that's how they're framing the process that produced TEQ redux. 

And, of course, as usual, this is magnified by the fact that the show is so wildly inconsistent about it. I might side-eye it anyway, but there are shows that could maybe get away with a Polly-annaish message about even the dark self being redeemable. But this is the same show where we spent half a season on "Oh noes, Emma has darkness inside her" and then another half season of "Dark One Emma is the worst person ever," even though Emma, teenage thief backstory notwithstanding, had never shown herself to be anything but a pretty decent and at times incredibly noble person, and even DO Emma's greatest crimes were a)controlling Violet's heart for about a minute to make Henry cry over (temporarily) lost puppy love and b) trying to kill a serial killer for her own and the greater good. And yet, surprise surprise, we did not get a story about how Dark Emma just needed to learn to love herself. 

And even a show that could theoretically get away with the more Polly-annish path really couldn't do so without being pretty disgusting if the "dark self" - not to mention the integrated prime self -- was a literal, long-unrepentant mass murderer. It is morally outrageous that we're supposed to cheer for the EQ learning to love herself and running merrily off with her boyfriend and not think about her (conservatively) scores of victims. The EQ/Regina shouldn't have loved herself, because she was an awful person who killed countless lives. There might be a path back where you work to atone for your crimes, insofar as it is possible, and eventually get to a place where you can like the person you've become. But forgive me if I can't cheer for the self-actualization of a genocidal maniac. 

Oh, and it makes no sense that Regina prime manifests no meaningful change  despite having removed the darkness. So...the EQ is dark Regina, who is pretty much indistinguishable from past Regina, while "good" Regina is no different from S5 Regina.  

[tennisgurl]

Seeing Tinkerbell again and the whole "Robin and Regina are pixie dust soul mates" thing rearing its head again just makes me wonder, again, why is it that Robin and Regina are the only people they mention having this destined romance? Is this not a normal fairy thing, or are tons of people hooking up with random strangers everywhere based on what some random woman with a wand and a goofy dress says? The only reason they seemingly got together was because of their pixie dust soul connection, despite Robin marrying Marian and Regina basing her whole life around Daniel, so what does that mean? She says its just "a possibility" but everyone acts like it means the two of them are meant to be and they HAVE to be together now, even if Robin is married, and that they hardly knew each other. But if its so powerful, why is Regina the only one with a fairy soul mate that we hear of? As usual, the whole universe changes it very rules for Regina. 

[KingOfHearts]

5 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

But if its so powerful, why is Regina the only one with a fairy soul mate that we hear of? As usual, the whole universe changes it very rules for Regina. 

And did it ever really matter that they were soulmates? Did they ever even TLK? If they have some special connection because of pixie dust that other couples don't have, shouldn't that affect the plot a little more than just motivating Regina to date him? He ended up dying anyway, so what was the point? I get A&E wanting to give Regina a love interest. Like, fine. She's the other protagonist and Evil Regals were clamoring for it. What I don't understand is going through the trouble of making them Pixie Dust Soulmates™. It was unnecessary.

At least when the other couples TLK'ed or True Love Tackled, their special connection affected the plot in some way. As common as True Love was, it had great significance to the plot. It had more meaning than just a relationship. 

Outlaw Queen was always about making Regina a martyr.

Edited August 13, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

The only reason they seemingly got together was because of their pixie dust soul connection, despite Robin marrying Marian and Regina basing her whole life around Daniel, so what does that mean? She says its just "a possibility" but everyone acts like it means the two of them are meant to be and they HAVE to be together now, even if Robin is married, and that they hardly knew each other.

You'd think that people who are soulmates would click, like you'd know they were soulmates and meant to be together even without the pixie dust. When they met, they'd be drawn to each other and feel like they'd met the right person. The pixie dust just showed it before they even met. But they pretty much hated each other before she saw the tattoo. They had nothing in common. Their only conversations were about how they were either meant to be together or couldn't be together. They didn't support each other through difficult things, build each other up, or do any of the other kind of stuff that comes with even an ordinary relationship.

Maybe it was Regina's Evil Queen side that was soulmates with Evil Wish Robin and all of Regina's season 4 drama was entirely misguided.

Spoiler

Henry's distress signal to Hook also went to Wish Hook, so maybe the pixie dust meant for Wish Robin went to the nearest other Robin.

[KingOfHearts]

19 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

Maybe it was Regina's Evil Queen side that was soulmates with Evil Wish Robin and all of Regina's season 4 drama was entirely misguided.

This head-canon makes sense, including the spoiler tagged one. I can see the Evil Queen and Wish Robin being soulmates in a "bold and audacious" sort of way. If Original Recipe Robin had been written to be more like him and less like a pureblooded hero, Outlaw Queen would've made more sense to me. Wish Robin didn't seem to care all that much about morals. It also helps that Marian and Roland didn't seem to be in the picture at all.

(Was Wish Robin just never with Marian? I forgot.)

Edited August 14, 2019 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Was Wish Robin just never with Marian? I forgot.

Didn't he scoff at Regina when she mentioned Marian? I guess he didn't get turned around by Marian the way Robin Prime did, though I don't see how that would have been changed by whether or not the curse ever happened, since it happened long before the curse, considering Robin Prime was already with Marian in the early days of Belle being with Rumple. But then there's the fact that his age and timeline don't fit anyway and he should be about 28 years older, and there's no explanation for that, either, other than the Evil Queen was getting what she "deserved."