S02.E15: Legend of the Spear

[scarynikki12]

Quote

The Legends must devise a plan to retrieve the last remaining fragments of the Spear of Destiny from the Legion of Doom.

 

[Miss Dee]

Never thought I'd say this, but: FUCK YOU, LEGENDS. Especially you, Ray. Where the FUCK was your voice after Mick saved you how many times now?? You couldn't stand up for him?!

"Don't play with fire, Mick." Gah, my baby!

ETA: I may have scared my husband with my yelling.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Miss Dee

[Jediknight]

It took Ray too long to speak about Mick.  Come on writers, he was there when they were confronting Mick about Snart and he said nothing.  Have Mick's closest friend since the death of Snart at least say something before the very end.

I was smiling at the references to Lord of the Rings.

[Lantern7]

Wow. The Legends are so fuuuuuuuuuuuuuucked.

I don't hate Mick. He was convinced Snart was a hallucination. Stein looked him over, and figured it was in his head. How is it his fault that the Legion would've snagged his BFF from the past and set him loose? Two of the good guys are trope savvy, but the rest have lives. Not Mick's fault. Of course, he turned on the team at the worst possible time.

Damn, WWI was no joke. "So many bodies. So many . . . holy shit! Is that Mr. Bean?!?"

Oh, wow, we got Firestorm back. And he/they have been working on transmutation. Very nice.

ETA: I'm good with Tolkien. No worse than having George Lucas.

[Sakura12]

Yeah, they have no one but themselves to blame on that one. They were always treating Mick like an afterthought and not part of the team. 

Sorry, Amaya I really don't think your plan of using the spear would've been a better one. No one should have that much power. 

I'm excited for next weeks episode. I want to see the Legends as different people. Although from the promo it's interesting that Darhk wanted Sara and Amaya to work for him. 

[tennisgurl]

I'm calling bullshit on Ray not speaking up for Mick earlier when he was still around. He is one of his best friends, even if the writers seem to like paring Ray up with Nate more (which I like, but its not as fun as Mick and Ray were)! I appreciate that he seems to be the only one sticking up for him after the fact, but still. Its totally out of character for him to stand there while everyone pilled on him. And, yeah, Mick siding with past Snart is bad, but its hard to tally blame him when his team is treating him like he's on probation all the time. It looks like next week he has a change of heart though, so lets hope there are lots of apologies all around for everything in the near future.

Also, might have freaked out my neighbors yelling at the TV. Just a bit. Next week looks great, and hopefully will piss me off less. Damn it LoT, I expect better from you!

[squidprincess]

Honestly, I'm annoyed at Mick's betrayal, because the entire set up seemed contrived in order to justify it.  Every single person was out of character in it.

The rest of the episode was fun.  But that really irked me.

[kirinan]

I don't think Mick has turned on the Legends. My gut says he'll redeem himself, and that he's a lot smarter and less gullible than he's been given credit for. He was Chronos (Kronos?); some of it--if not alll--had to stick.

Oh, Leonard Snart, how extraordinarily much I miss you. Please don't leave me again. Dump Nate, you stay, okay?

Rip seems to have found his rhythm and his place with the team again. He's the elder statesman of the team.

[SnoGirl]

Poor Mick. I was kinda hoping he was trying to protect the Legends by giving up the Spear. Especially when he said to Snart "I thought it was going to be ours." I get why Mick wants to rewrite his life, it must be frustrating to never be taken seriously or trusted by your own team.

I hope Mick gets to be the big damn hero next week. And I can't be the only one that wants Snart back. I hope Wentworth Miller comes back fulltime someday. I had always hoped a Crossover with Flash would rescue the Snart we knew and loved from the explosion.

[Artsda]

The Legends kind of deserved that from Mick. They've been treating him like crap, no trust, no belief.  I don't blame him for going off with Snart.

He told Stein he saw Snart and Stein didn't believe him. Stein knew even that Snart punched him. Yet they blame Mick for talking to a ghost?

I loved all the Lord of the Rings. Especially hearing pieces of Aragorn's black gate speech.

[tennisgurl]

Yeah, most of the gang (other than Amaya and Ray) are usually kind of mean/snarky towards Mick, but I've always believed they did like and trust him as a teammate, even if he could be kind of a pain. And most everyone on the team can be a pain, so he fits in. Their behavior seemed contrived to get him to want to leave the team. After this week, I don't blame him for cutting and running. I do hope that, after he saves the day next week (which is what I'm assuming is going to happen) they treat him with more respect. It was their normal behavior towards him taken up to a higher level. However, I'm thinking he hasn't really turned on them completely, and he will end up doing the right thing in the end. Maybe he can convince Snart to join him! It wouldn't really be the same though, considering its a younger, still a bad guy Captain Cold. Mick should tell him that  future Snart ended up giving up his life to be heroic. The one thing Flash Point could have helped with!

I did enjoy a lot of the other episode though, like Nate reminding Mick that the Germans weren't Nazis in this war, the conversation between Sara and Amaya, and Tolkien was cool to have around. Loved all the LoTR references. Especially Rip giving Aragon's speech.  And I really enjoyed this exchange:

Tolkien: "The answer to everything isn't violence!"

Rip: *punches guy in the face and knocks him out*

Tolkien: "...Well maybe this time".

Oh Rip. I missed you.

[Ashand11]

Is no one else annoyed that they just completely f*cked up the storyline? Are we just going to pretend that plucking Snart out of the timeline isnt going to completely screw up everything that happened?  Will the time masters still exist now? And the Oculus? Will they forget who he was and what he did since he obviously will never have gotten on the ship in the first place and most importantly he won't ever be able to come back full time to the team because he's dead. And will the show even address these issues? My guess is no.  I don't blame Mick at all btw.  I always wondered if push came to shove if they would risk their lives to save Mick because they always treated him as an afterthought.  Snart was the only one who cared enough about him.  Him and Mick are also the only ones who never screwed up a mission funnily enough.

[benteen]

Count me as disappointed over Mick's defection.  Losing what he brings to the team in terms of humor and fun isn't something that can be replaced.  The team suddenly distrusting Mick didn't work for me as he had proven himself several times and someone like Ray definitely would have spoken up from there.  The team treated him like they would have early last season and it felt like Arrow, where the writers write their characters to fit the stories they want to tell instead of writing their stories to fit their characters.

Still, really good episode and the WW1 battlefield made for an intense setting.  It was nice to see Rip in more of a lead role while Sara is still the captain of the ship.  I liked the actor playing the young JRR Tolkein and how they made the plot feel like Lord of the Rings like they made the George Lucas episode feel like Star Wars.  Young JRR looked a little like a young version of the Brigadier from Doctor Who.

I got a kick out of DD's yelling out "Christ!" towards the end.  I was surprised that Sara nearly sent the team to the crucificiton of Christ and thought Rip's logic was sound for not wanting the ship to go there.

The whole Legion of Doom have been fun villains this year.

1 minute ago, Ashand11 said:

Is no one else annoyed that they just completely f*cked up the storyline? Are we just going to pretend that plucking Snart out of the timeline isnt going to completely screw up everything that happened?  Will the time masters still exist now? And the Oculus? Will they forget who he was and what he did since he obviously will never have gotten on the ship in the first place and most importantly he won't ever be able to come back full time to the team because he's dead. And will the show even address these issues? My guess is no.  I don't blame Mick at all btw.  I always wondered if push came to shove if they would risk their lives to save Mick because they always treated him as an afterthought.  Snart was the only one who cared enough about him.  Him and Mick are also the only ones who never screwed up a mission funnily enough.

You're absolutely right about this...this should be a MAJOR problem with the timeline and the ripple effect.

[Ashand11]

34 minutes ago, benteen said:

Count me as disappointed over Mick's defection.  Losing what he brings to the team in terms of humor and fun isn't something that can be replaced.  The team suddenly distrusting Mick didn't work for me as he had proven himself several times and someone like Ray definitely would have spoken up from there.  The team treated him like they would have early last season and it felt like Arrow, where the writers write their characters to fit the stories they want to tell instead of writing their stories to fit their characters.

Still, really good episode and the WW1 battlefield made for an intense setting.  It was nice to see Rip in more of a lead role while Sara is still the captain of the ship.  I liked the actor playing the young JRR Tolkein and how they made the plot feel like Lord of the Rings like they made the George Lucas episode feel like Star Wars.  Young JRR looked a little like a young version of the Brigadier from Doctor Who.

I got a kick out of DD's yelling out "Christ!" towards the end.  I was surprised that Sara nearly sent the team to the crucificiton of Christ and thought Rip's logic was sound for not wanting the ship to go there.

The whole Legion of Doom have been fun villains this year.

You're absolutely right about this...this should be a MAJOR problem with the timeline and the ripple effect.

Mick has proved himself but I never really felt like the team acknowledged it or even noticed it to be honest.

[Lantern7]

1 minute ago, benteen said:

I was surprised that Sara nearly sent the team to the crucificiton of Christ and thought Rip's logic was sound for not wanting the ship to go there.

The whole Legion of Doom have been fun villains this year.

1. The only thing missing was Peter Capaldi tackling Caity Lotz. Bad, Sara. Logical, but so bad.

2. Compared to what we had last year, of course the Legion is fun. And I don't think they qualify as a "legion."

[Lady Calypso]

53 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

I hope Mick gets to be the big damn hero next week. And I can't be the only one that wants Snart back. I hope Wentworth Miller comes back fulltime someday. I had always hoped a Crossover with Flash would rescue the Snart we knew and loved from the explosion.

I think we will see Mick being the hero next week. I mean, wouldn't he be the only one out of the Legends to remember after the Legion changes reality? I don't think Mick was fully on board with betraying his team, but I can see why. None of them could tell him that they valued him. He's done a lot for the team, and none of them could give a little bit of trust. It does make me certain that Mick will end this season with a better relationship with his team. Hopefully with the team caring more about Mick. They just let him go, after all. Which is weird because they have shown to be caring toward Mick in the past. So them just blaming Mick when they all thought he was hallucinating was pretty bad. Writers, come on! Do better!

That being said, Ray, boy, you couldn't stick up for your bestie? Or have you forgotten your bromance here? Mick saved your life in season 1, man! Season 1, even when Snart was around! It was nice to see some Amaya/Mick scenes. They haven't forgotten that those two had a connection before they went full speed with Nate/Amaya!  

I enjoyed seeing Rip take a leadership role. I think they're really trying to prove his worth on the team, so good on them.  

The WWI setting was fun. JRR Tolkein was also fun. As someone who has not read Lord of the Rings or seen the movie, I hope that I learned a little bit about its author.  

I also questioned the ramifications of Snart being pulled out of the timeline to travel with the Legion. I can't imagine it's any good. For now, I'm pretending that Eboard took a time remnant like Zoom and Barry did in Flash season 2 and this is not a version of Snart that will affect the timeline much.  For those unfamiliar with time remnants...it's complicated. They're kind of like clones, I guess? 

Nate's so much better when they let him be serious and an actual historian. 

[BadArcher]

Did they HAVE to dig for the blood in 1916? Wouldn't it have been easier to go back in time a few years and dig it up during peacetime?

[paulvdb]

I was thinking the same thing about going back a few years to dig it up when there wasn't a war going on.

[Ashand11]

52 minutes ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think we will see Mick being the hero next week. I mean, wouldn't he be the only one out of the Legends to remember after the Legion changes reality? I don't think Mick was fully on board with betraying his team, but I can see why. None of them could tell him that they valued him. He's done a lot for the team, and none of them could give a little bit of trust. It does make me certain that Mick will end this season with a better relationship with his team. Hopefully with the team caring more about Mick. They just let him go, after all. Which is weird because they have shown to be caring toward Mick in the past. So them just blaming Mick when they all thought he was hallucinating was pretty bad. Writers, come on! Do better!

That being said, Ray, boy, you couldn't stick up for your bestie? Or have you forgotten your bromance here? Mick saved your life in season 1, man! Season 1, even when Snart was around! It was nice to see some Amaya/Mick scenes. They haven't forgotten that those two had a connection before they went full speed with Nate/Amaya!  

I enjoyed seeing Rip take a leadership role. I think they're really trying to prove his worth on the team, so good on them.  

The WWI setting was fun. JRR Tolkein was also fun. As someone who has not read Lord of the Rings or seen the movie, I hope that I learned a little bit about its author.  

I also questioned the ramifications of Snart being pulled out of the timeline to travel with the Legion. I can't imagine it's any good. For now, I'm pretending that Eboard took a time remnant like Zoom and Barry did in Flash season 2 and this is not a version of Snart that will affect the timeline much.  For those unfamiliar with time remnants...it's complicated. They're kind of like clones, I guess? 

Nate's so much better when they let him be serious and an actual historian. 

I was hoping with the Snart situation they would have gone with a story where Snart wasn't killed at the oculus but scattered in time or was stuck in the temporal zone.  It was the only way to do it without screwing up the story and timeline.  Also, at the beginning of the season the writers said that Mick would have a love interest and it seemed like him and Amaya were headed that direction until they randomly threw Nate and Amaya together when they spent very little time together.  It was very random. Its a little sad that Amaya was the only one that seemed upset about Micks departure.  She's right, Sarah should have just used to spear to get rid of them and then destroyed it.

[squidprincess]

I really enjoyed getting to see Rip as field leader.  He really seemed to be in his element there.  Though I suppose that makes it the shortest "finding his place" arc in history.  :-)

[Argenta]

My first reaction is that the Legion have terrible security, if the Legends can walk right into their base, destroy the obelisk containing the Spear fragments, take said fragments and leave...and no alert goes off until they're already out the door and even a speedster can't intercept them in time!

And this is with the presumed benefit of futuristic technology supplied by Thawne...standard 21st century house alarms would have done a better job, seriously.

I'm being grouchy. I actually loved this episode and will make more positive comments later.

[Ashand11]

34 minutes ago, Argenta said:

My first reaction is that the Legion have terrible security, if the Legends can walk right into their base, destroy the obelisk containing the Spear fragments, take said fragments and leave...and no alert goes off until they're already out the door and even a speedster can't intercept them in time!

And this is with the presumed benefit of futuristic technology supplied by Thawne...standard 21st century house alarms would have done a better job, seriously.

I'm being grouchy. I actually loved this episode and will make more positive comments later.

I don't really understand why they needed the whole spear.  Couldn't they just destroy their pieces? The spear doesnt work unless its whole.

[thuganomics85]

Kind of had a sense of dread throughout the entire episode, because it felt like the rest of the Legends were being meaner then normal to Mick, so I wasn't surprised by his turn, and even if he was wrong, I kind of don't blame him.  Despite his bravado and brutish behavior, I think he really can be fragile, and the team's disrespect really got to him.  Plus, Snart re-entering the picture really did a number on him, because I think that is truly a bond that runs deep with him.  That said, I think they are already planting the seeds of him turning back.  He clearly doesn't seem happy with the rest of the Legion.

But, really, the Legends have no one to blame but themselves.  In particular, both Jax and Martin came off like assholes, although I guess that is always what they are like.  But Martin in particular knew about Mick's past Snart visions, and should have been more considerate, instead of an arrogant jackass.  And, I hate to say it, but Sara disappointed me too, by not trying to put a lid on it, and participating in the gang-up, even if she tried to be more tactful.  As Ray said, Mick isn't an idiot, and he still knew that she wasn't on his side, despite being more "polite" with him.  She usually is better at handling conflicts, but she really dropped the ball here.

And seriously: is Mick's screw-up really that worse then.... well, a shit ton of the screw-ups this entire team has done in past episodes?  Come on, Legends!  I love y'all, but y'all are some of the biggest fuck-ups in all of time and space!  At least Mick doesn't judge people for it, so he's got that over y'all!

It's always interesting seeing stuff based on World War 1, since films/television tend to always go for the younger and bigger World War II.  Enjoyed seeing J.R.R. Tolkien and all of the references to his work!  They can be such geeks sometimes!

I did like Rip showing his usefulness in this episode.  He truly has a purpose on team.

While Sara's plan was pretty much a Hail Mary, I still not sure Amaya's was all that great either.  Magic/power always come with a price, and if they did use the spear in that way, I'm sure it would have fucked things up somehow.

The Legion continue to crack me up.  They are just so petty and full of themselves.  Especially Damien.  And now they have Bad Snart and Mick with them!  Oh, boy!

[Argenta]

 I think Rip explained that the Spear could not be destroyed by any known means - just like Tolkien's One Ring - which is why he broke it up and went to such lengths to hide the pieces in the first place.

This was prior to the fire writing on the Spear telling them it could be 'undone in blood'. Nate somewhat jumped to the conclusion that this must mean the blood of Christ specifically, but my guess is that it's referring to sacrificial blood more generally. So I think one of the Legends will have to give their life to destroy the Spear and save humanity from the Legion. 

[elle]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

The WWI setting was fun. JRR Tolkein was also fun. As someone who has not read Lord of the Rings or seen the movie, I hope that I learned a little bit about its author.  

I guess that considering all of history is messed up at this point, the fact that they cured Tolkein of his "trench fever", the LoT doomed him is moot.

From The Tolkein Society: Eventually he was indeed sent to active duty on the Western Front, just in time for the Somme offensive. After four months in and out of the trenches, he succumbed to “trench fever”, a form of typhus-like infection common in the insanitary conditions, and in early November was sent back to England, where he spent the next month in hospital in Birmingham. By Christmas he had recovered sufficiently to stay with Edith at Great Haywood in Staffordshire. ...Throughout 1917 and 1918 his illness kept recurring, although periods of remission enabled him to do home service at various camps sufficiently well to be promoted to lieutenant.

More than one million men were wounded or killed in Battle of the Somme (1 July - 18 November 1916) , making it one of the bloodiest battles in human history.

[ohjoy]

1 hour ago, Ashand11 said:

Is no one else annoyed that they just completely f*cked up the storyline? Are we just going to pretend that plucking Snart out of the timeline isnt going to completely screw up everything that happened?  Will the time masters still exist now? And the Oculus? Will they forget who he was and what he did since he obviously will never have gotten on the ship in the first place and most importantly he won't ever be able to come back full time to the team because he's dead. And will the show even address these issues? My guess is no.  I don't blame Mick at all btw.  I always wondered if push came to shove if they would risk their lives to save Mick because they always treated him as an afterthought.  Snart was the only one who cared enough about him.  Him and Mick are also the only ones who never screwed up a mission funnily enough.

I could have totally missed it, but did they say that they pulled Snart from before he joined the Legends? I just assumed they pulled him from right before the explosion at the Oculus, and then screwed up his memories/personality like they did with Rip.

I really wish we could have Snart back fulltime. And if I have to put up with Mick & Snart as "bad guys" in order to keep him around, I'm willing to do so.

25 minutes ago, Argenta said:

 I think Rip explained that the Spear could not be destroyed by any known means - just like Tolkien's One Ring - which is why he broke it up and went to such lengths to hide the pieces in the first place.

This was prior to the fire writing on the Spear telling them it could be 'undone in blood'. Nate somewhat jumped to the conclusion that this must mean the blood of Christ specifically, but my guess is that it's referring to sacrificial blood more generally. So I think one of the Legends will have to give their life to destroy the Spear and save humanity from the Legion. 

This dovetails nicely into the running theories about who is leaving the team at the end of this season -- which, btw, I don't like at all. I don't like it because I'm not convinced it won't be someone that I want to keep (i.e. not the newbies -- sorry Amaya).

[squidprincess]

It does occur to me: why the heck would Rip, or Gideon, be unable to read or translate Latin?  They're time travelers.  I can't imagine the Time Masters left the Roman Empire off the table.  (And Oculus is a Latin word.)

Edited March 22, 2017 by squidprincess

[Ashand11]

1 hour ago, RandomMe said:

I could have totally missed it, but did they say that they pulled Snart from before he joined the Legends? I just assumed they pulled him from right before the explosion at the Oculus, and then screwed up his memories/personality like they did with Rip.

I really wish we could have Snart back fulltime. And if I have to put up with Mick & Snart as "bad guys" in order to keep him around, I'm willing to do so.

This dovetails nicely into the running theories about who is leaving the team at the end of this season -- which, btw, I don't like at all. I don't like it because I'm not convinced it won't be someone that I want to keep (i.e. not the newbies -- sorry Amaya).

Yes Rip said they went back in time and got an older Snart. I don't think they can pull him from just before the oculus exploded as it exists outside of time so they can't go back to that moment.

[zannej]

I enjoyed this one for the most part. I admit that I don't like it when they present religious stories as fact. Not all of the viewers are Christian or believe in the story of Jesus. I personally don't, and I don't like it when shows/movies try to push stories from Christianity as fact/history. But, in certain cases I can handwave and just pretend that it is just part of that fictional universe and not representative of the real world. I was able to greatly enjoy Dogma because I took it as a fantasy world. So, for this one I had to remind myself that there are people with superpowers in this so I can pretend that Jesus existed in their world.

I have to agree that they should have gone to look for the blood prior to the war. I actually liked how they used Tolkein in this one. The war scenes were still somewhat sanitized. I remember in LOTR where they were going over the water and there were tons of bodies just below the water's surface (which was something that Tolkein witnessed during war).

The team being mad at Mick for talking to what he thought was a hallucination didn't make sense to me. Snart was dead as far as he knew. Why would him talking to a figment of his imagination mean that he wasn't loyal to them? Snart was right, they really never gave Mick the trust and respect that he deserved.

I agree with the people who said that it seemed odd that Eobard didn't have better security. He knew that Rip had his memories back and that Rip would be able to recognize where the hideout was. So why was he so surprised that they showed up? But, I do have to remind myself that he created STAR Labs (under the guise of Dr. Wells) and the security there really sucked. People just walk in all the time. Also, he didn't have cameras at his own front door (so he didn't see that Caitlin was at his door to talk to him) but he had cameras everywhere else-- including people's bedrooms. But for the most part, he was really on top of his game and predicting how people would react and anticipating a lot of things. So, I don't buy that he would underestimate the Legends enough to be shocked and say they weren't smart enough to pull off the heist of the spear piece.

I'm trying to remember if he ever met Snart while posing as Dr. Wells.

I admit that I was actually rooting for the Legion because the Legends were kinda pissing me off. Loved the "Legendary idiots" line. And it was funny seeing him lose his temper only to calm down and realize that they could just go take the whole spear away. Loved the interaction with Damien about the zombie speedster and how he wanted to let it eat Eobard's brain and then "did it already eat your brain?" or something like that. LOL. I wonder if bringing in Snart was Damien's idea or if just bringing more reinforcements was his idea.

I also wonder why it was Malcolm who read the inscription from the book. No explanation of how he knew how to read it. I would have thought Damien or Eobard would know. Damien putting his hand at the top part of the spear made sense, he clearly wants to be top dog. LOL. I also love how Malcolm returned to find them with two new people and the spear, but he just brushed it off (albeit with a snide remark about them waiting for him).

I'm glad hey used Nate's powers to have him bust through enemy lines. Ray laughing while inside the canon and scaring the soldiers was pretty funny. Although, the translation said "Gremlins" but they said "Poltergeist!"

If they wanted to destroy the spear, putting it together didn't make sense. Especially if Rip knew that it would call to people and try to tempt them.

It kinda made sense that Amaya wanted to use the spear, but if she didn't know how to use it then it would be rather pointless.

The visual of Amaya and Sara kicking down soldiers in the nurses uniforms cracked me up for some reason.

Loved all of the LOTR references.

It was also cool to see the villains at the end all holding on to the spear with the spinning camera. I'm looking forward to the next episode.

[TDT]

Im wondering, what was that chanting they were doing at the end translated into English is..

[Lokiberry]

5 hours ago, squidprincess said:

It does occur to me: why the heck would Rip, or Gideon, be unable to read or translate Latin?  They're time travelers.  I can't imagine the Time Masters left the Roman Empire off the table.  (And Oculus is a Latin word.)

If Rip had been able to translate latin or known about the Gawain myth, there wouldn't have been anything for Nate to do, and that's the problem.

Anyway, I enjoyed the trip to WWI and Tolkien, particularly Tolkien getting misty eyed over Rip giving what will be Aragorn's speech. It was nice to see  Snart again. WM has never met scenery that he wasn't eager to chew. I wish he could have come back earlier, he fits right in with the Legion.

While the team was extra mean to Mick, I have to point out this is not the first time he's willing betrayed them. Those that were there for the Time Pirates incident have reason to not fully trust him.

Now that the blood of Christ is gone, how will they destroy the spear? Will someone have to lay down their live for their friends?

[MarkHB]

7 hours ago, elle said:

More than one million men were wounded or killed in Battle of the Somme (1 July - 18 November 1916) , making it one of the bloodiest battles in human history.

I just read that on the WP page, followed by:

Result: Inconclusive.

Diana of Themyscira, welcome to humankind.

[Argenta]

Someone just tweeted this and now I'm laughing my butt off:

 

[ohjoy]

I think Sara's "Backstreet Boys" comment, followed by their nonplussed looks, is my second-favorite thing about this episode.

My favorite was the scene with Mick and Sara at the Vanishing Point. Don't try to tell me Mick Rory doesn't have a heart (or brains).

[kirinan]

10 hours ago, Ashand11 said:

Is no one else annoyed that they just completely f*cked up the storyline? Are we just going to pretend that plucking Snart out of the timeline isnt going to completely screw up everything that happened?  Will the time masters still exist now? And the Oculus? Will they forget who he was and what he did since he obviously will never have gotten on the ship in the first place and most importantly he won't ever be able to come back full time to the team because he's dead. And will the show even address these issues? My guess is no.  I don't blame Mick at all btw.  I always wondered if push came to shove if they would risk their lives to save Mick because they always treated him as an afterthought.  Snart was the only one who cared enough about him.  Him and Mick are also the only ones who never screwed up a mission funnily enough.

Nope, not annoyed at all, because if I thought too hard about how much of the time travel in this show doesn't make sense, I would stop watching. Just like if I thought too hard about how the writing for this week deliberately went out of character with everyone just to make Mick want to leave (or make it look like he wants to leave), I'd throw something at the TV and stop watching. However, I don't want to stop watching because this is my sacred "turn off your brain and enjoy the ride" hour of the week. Clearly, I'm in the minority, but it's how I roll when it comes to this show.  

Edited March 22, 2017 by kirinan

[kismet]

I really enjoyed this episode. I loved JRR, can we keep him please? I loved all the LOTR references. I also thought WWI was a nice dramatic setting for everything to unfold. I also liked Nate in this episode. I do like when they allow him to be a historian, although how they didn't understand Latin is beyond me. But I never took a day of Latin and figured it had to do with blood just using basic linguistics and from watching too many shows with ancient Latin in them. However, we needed something for Nate to do.

As for Mick betraying them, I was not surprised by that considering how they were setting it up. I do think Stein & Jax were a little harsh on him. Although Jax has been known to have loyalty and trust issues, so him turning hard and fast does not surprise me. I was surprised that they had Stein behave the way they did, especially after they had them spend so much time together on his hallucinations. So if anyone understood how long this problem has been going on, it should have been Stein. It wasn't the first hallucinations. And I did think at first it was just another hallucination. The writers were good that when DD said they were going to change it up, they didn't tell us the plan.

I did like all the team work showed in this episode, which is a shame they chose this one to do their Mick betrayal and the team going mad at him just poor timing, especially when it felt like a just for plot reasons. I do think next week will be a lot of fun, and I do think Mick will be a big hero. And perhaps he will find his redemption for the betrayal, and the team will finally learn again that Mick is really hero despite his rough exterior and checkered past.

[dkb]

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I'm calling bullshit on Ray not speaking up for Mick earlier when he was still around. He is one of his best friends, even if the writers seem to like paring Ray up with Nate more (which I like, but its not as fun as Mick and Ray were)! I appreciate that he seems to be the only one sticking up for him after the fact, but still. Its totally out of character for him to stand there while everyone pilled on him. And, yeah, Mick siding with past Snart is bad, but its hard to tally blame him when his team is treating him like he's on probation all the time. It looks like next week he has a change of heart though, so lets hope there are lots of apologies all around for everything in the near future.

 

18 hours ago, squidprincess said:

Honestly, I'm annoyed at Mick's betrayal, because the entire set up seemed contrived in order to justify it.  Every single person was out of character in it.

 

18 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Yeah, most of the gang (other than Amaya and Ray) are usually kind of mean/snarky towards Mick, but I've always believed they did like and trust him as a teammate, even if he could be kind of a pain. And most everyone on the team can be a pain, so he fits in. Their behavior seemed contrived to get him to want to leave the team. After this week, I don't blame him for cutting and running. I do hope that, after he saves the day next week (which is what I'm assuming is going to happen) they treat him with more respect. It was their normal behavior towards him taken up to a higher level. However, I'm thinking he hasn't really turned on them completely, and he will end up doing the right thing in the end. Maybe he can convince Snart to join him! It wouldn't really be the same though, considering its a younger, still a bad guy Captain Cold. Mick should tell him that  future Snart ended up giving up his life to be heroic. The one thing Flash Point could have helped with!

I did enjoy a lot of the other episode though, like Nate reminding Mick that the Germans weren't Nazis in this war, the conversation between Sara and Amaya, and Tolkien was cool to have around. Loved all the LoTR references. Especially Rip giving Aragon's speech.  And I really enjoyed this exchange:

Tolkien: "The answer to everything isn't violence!"

Rip: *punches guy in the face and knocks him out*

Tolkien: "...Well maybe this time".

Oh Rip. I missed you.

 

17 hours ago, benteen said:

Count me as disappointed over Mick's defection.  Losing what he brings to the team in terms of humor and fun isn't something that can be replaced.  The team suddenly distrusting Mick didn't work for me as he had proven himself several times and someone like Ray definitely would have spoken up from there.  The team treated him like they would have early last season and it felt like Arrow, where the writers write their characters to fit the stories they want to tell instead of writing their stories to fit their characters.

 

17 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I think we will see Mick being the hero next week. I mean, wouldn't he be the only one out of the Legends to remember after the Legion changes reality? I don't think Mick was fully on board with betraying his team, but I can see why. None of them could tell him that they valued him. He's done a lot for the team, and none of them could give a little bit of trust. It does make me certain that Mick will end this season with a better relationship with his team. Hopefully with the team caring more about Mick. They just let him go, after all. Which is weird because they have shown to be caring toward Mick in the past. So them just blaming Mick when they all thought he was hallucinating was pretty bad. Writers, come on! Do better!

That being said, Ray, boy, you couldn't stick up for your bestie? Or have you forgotten your bromance here? Mick saved your life in season 1, man! Season 1, even when Snart was around! It was nice to see some Amaya/Mick scenes. They haven't forgotten that those two had a connection before they went full speed with Nate/Amaya!  

I was really expecting Ray to say something when Jax was going off on Mick the first time, and as he didn't, there was no reason for him to be standing there. It made him look bad for not speaking up. 

But I also agree this episode was over the top with everyone piling on poor Mick. They usually make comments but this episode was overboard. I liked the Amaya and Mick talking about what they heard from the spear. They have sacrificed Amaya's relationships with everyone else on the ship for Nate/Amaya. Like @Lokiberry said above, they have to show us Nate doing something; Gideon could have translated. 

Also I thought Nate's backstory was that he never left his home or town because of his condition and that made him want to be an historian, because he wanted to experience life through others, but now he had a semester abroad at Oxford? Maybe I'm not remembering correctly how he presented himself in the beginning, but that was weird because now every episode he has another anecdote that doesn't really go with what was presented in the beginning. Why did he have to include "his girlfriend Wendy" while talking about something? That was so unnecessary.

 

8 hours ago, RandomMe said:

I think Sara's "Backstreet Boys" comment, followed by their nonplussed looks, is my second-favorite thing about this episode.

My favorite was the scene with Mick and Sara at the Vanishing Point. Don't try to tell me Mick Rory doesn't have a heart (or brains).

This part cracked me up, it was just thrown out there so casually. Yep their looks at each other was the best part of it.

Other lines that made me laugh:

"No, I want a piece of cake and a beer."

"See, I did help." with a punch to Jax's arm?

"You're an illumination."
 

[kismet]

If I remember Nate's introduction, it was not that he couldn't travel - it was that his career & hobbies were limited by his condition. He could not join the military like his ancestors. He couldn't play sports or do adventurous activities. So him going to Oxford does still fit in with his narrative, since I'm assuming it was your average academic abroad. NO major physical activities. Just some long nights with the books and Wendy.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

14 hours ago, zannej said:

I'm glad hey used Nate's powers to have him bust through enemy lines.

I don't know why Nate couldn't have taken the spear and gone by himself instead of risking the others.  They're both basically indestructible!

14 hours ago, zannej said:

It was also cool to see the villains at the end all holding on to the spear with the spinning camera.

But nearly all of them were wearing gloves.  If you actually have to touch something for it to be effective, then the gloves don't make sense.  Maybe holding onto the spear was not necessary?

9 hours ago, Lokiberry said:

15 hours ago, squidprincess said:

It does occur to me: why the heck would Rip, or Gideon, be unable to read or translate Latin?  They're time travelers.  I can't imagine the Time Masters left the Roman Empire off the table.  (And Oculus is a Latin word.)

If Rip had been able to translate latin or known about the Gawain myth, there wouldn't have been anything for Nate to do, and that's the problem.

Gideon has no trouble offering an answer other times without being specifically asked, and she would certainly know Latin, but they had to get mopey Nate involved in the case, so that's how they did it.

8 hours ago, RandomMe said:

I think Sara's "Backstreet Boys" comment, followed by their nonplussed looks, is my second-favorite thing about this episode.

Nate, Ray and Mick, sure - but it seemed inappropriate to include Rip, as if he can't remain on task.  And then she followed that up by asking Amaya to go as adult supervision - again, she was including Rip.  Seemed insulting to the previous captain.

[squidprincess]

3 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Nate, Ray and Mick, sure - but it seemed inappropriate to include Rip, as if he can't remain on task.  And then she followed that up by asking Amaya to go as adult supervision - again, she was including Rip.  Seemed insulting to the previous captain.

Aw, I actually thought it was sweet.  Sara, more than anyone else, knows how isolated and lost Rip was feeling, and with one joke, she was grouping him with the other men.  And once they were on the field, no one seemed to have any issue or surprise with Rip calling the shots.  So I don't think it was meant as an insult at all.

[dkb]

26 minutes ago, kismet said:

If I remember Nate's introduction, it was not that he couldn't travel - it was that his career & hobbies were limited by his condition. He could not join the military like his ancestors. He couldn't play sports or do adventurous activities. So him going to Oxford does still fit in with his narrative, since I'm assuming it was your average academic abroad. NO major physical activities. Just some long nights with the books and Wendy.

Thanks @kismet. That makes sense. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

21 hours ago, Ashand11 said:

Is no one else annoyed that they just completely f*cked up the storyline? 

Among other things, the Spear has the potential to be the mother of all reset buttons. They could even undo the murder of Rex Tyler, though I doubt they will.

20 hours ago, benteen said:

 

You're absolutely right about this...this should be a MAJOR problem with the timeline and the ripple effect.

We'll see how much they try to fix with the Spear, before disposing of it, maybe?

19 hours ago, Ashand11 said:

I don't really understand why they needed the whole spear.  Couldn't they just destroy their pieces? The spear doesnt work unless its whole.

Until the spear was whole and Gandalf Mick revealed the secret with fire, they didn't know how to destroy even a part of it.

16 hours ago, zannej said:

I enjoyed this one for the most part. I admit that I don't like it when they present religious stories as fact. Not all of the viewers are Christian or believe in the story of Jesus.

I agree, I'd say it was something it was best just to stay away from. But, FWIW, the Spear of Destiny (and the Christian version of the Holy Grail) are both significant artifacts in DC comics. And the Spear was even a big part of one version of the Justice Society's origin.

To shift pop culture reference gears for a bit, did anyone else think the flask of Jesus' blood looked like the one from Tales from the Crypt: Demon Knight?

Sarah didn't seem to even consider using the spear to bring Laurel back. I know she had basically given up that idea, but I thought having the Spear just sitting there might have at least had her thinking about it again. Ray could have been thinking about his wife as well. I realize there's only so much "temptation" they can squeeze in, but I would have liked to see the Spear being a problem for the whole team in that way.

Edited March 23, 2017 by Latverian Diplomat
Fix formatting

[TheMasterReborn]

18 minutes ago, Latverian Diplomat said:

Among other things, the Spear has the potential to be the mother of all reset buttons. They could even undo the murder of Rex Tyler, though I doubt they will.

I've been wondering if this season hasn't been setting up for a reset since the end of Season 1.  Mick was the one who told Rex Tyler to warn the team not to go back in the first place, we haven't seen Mick do that yet, that may be where the next two episodes are leading.  The question would then be, would the past season be wiped, would the team remember the events one way or both ways?  If the team never went back what would become of the JLS? Neither Nate or Amaya would join the Legends and Rex would not die.  Would the Legion of Doom still exist?

[immortalfrieza]

22 hours ago, kirinan said:

I don't think Mick has turned on the Legends. My gut says he'll redeem himself, and that he's a lot smarter and less gullible than he's been given credit for. He was Chronos (Kronos?); some of it--if not alll--had to stick.

I would hope so. I was figuring that Mick just put himself in position to be the Legend's man on the inside, especially since they were all being held at gunpoint at the time and Mick would've had to be a suicidal idiot not to at least pretend to play ball at that point. Of course, with these writers that's more nuanced than I would expect out of them.

20 hours ago, Argenta said:

 I think Rip explained that the Spear could not be destroyed by any known means - just like Tolkien's One Ring - which is why he broke it up and went to such lengths to hide the pieces in the first place.

I keep wondering why the Legends couldn't just drop the spear in a black hole or something. Yes, they finally established that the spear can't be destroyed by normal means, something they should've established the first time the spear was mentioned, but come on, even if that somehow can't destroy it there's no way the Legion or any other bad guy would be able to get to it.

21 hours ago, BadArcher said:

Did they HAVE to dig for the blood in 1916? Wouldn't it have been easier to go back in time a few years and dig it up during peacetime?

My thought exactly, once they for some reason decided to go to 1916. Before that my thought was why didn't they just jump back to 0 AD or thereabouts, find a time when baby Jesus was unattended for a bit, (not difficult during that day and age) and have super assassin Sarah sneak in and steal a bit of his blood with nobody the wiser. That would have been much easier than finding a vial of blood in a WAR ZONE. The Legends seem to CONSTANTLY forget that they have a freaking time machine that is also a space ship and thus most of the problems they come across would be simple to deal with.

Edited March 23, 2017 by immortalfrieza

[kismet]

So many of the Legends problems could be fixed with simple solutions, but then what would the plot be? It's part of the problem with time travel shows, you can go back some many different times and impact events. Often the writers will choose a complicated time because that is what makes the plot interesting.

Personally, I prefer they choose complicated times that have inherent drama. Then creating drama via a slippery slope of using time travel to change too much and then they are chasing their tails. A lot of s1 had that, and it gets repetitive. For the most part the episodes have resolutions within them, drama is from the time period and not the plotting.

[Argenta]

2 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

17 hours ago, zannej said:

It was also cool to see the villains at the end all holding on to the spear with the spinning camera.

But nearly all of them were wearing gloves.  If you actually have to touch something for it to be effective, then the gloves don't make sense.  Maybe holding onto the spear was not necessary?

And Malcolm actually took hold of the Spear with his prosthetic hand - I noticed that and thought it was a bit odd! 

Happy Fun Positive Parts:

-The echoes of Middle-Earth, from the way the storyline reflected LoTR to the direct quotes. Tolkien's commanding officer shouting "Fool of a Tolkien!" at him, echoing Gandalf saying "Fool of a Took!" to Pippin.

-Mick being, well, Mick and admitting to having scratched his backside with the Spear (it would have been really funny if it turned out that was actually the key to destroying it, and it just disintegrated in horror the second it came into contact with his ass.)

-Seeing all three, now FOUR, Legion of Doom members. I've missed Malcolm in particular as he's been absent for the last few episodes. 

-The Legion WINNING AND DOING COOL EVIL STUFF WITH THE SPEAR. It won't last, but I'll enjoy it while it does.

-Eobard continuing to make insulting remarks about the Legends' intelligence and then losing his cool completely when they took the Spear fragments.

-Sara's 'Backstreet Boys' joke, followed by the usual exchange of 'wait a minute, did she just call us...' looks between Nate and Ray.

-Rip's neat little speech.

Re. Mick, I agree he was treated quite unfairly, but in the team's defense, not only has he repeatedly (and recently) self-identified as a criminal and denied being a good guy, but his strong attachment to Snart made it reasonable IMO that they were worried he might put that friendship over the rest of the team. That doesn't necessarily mean they think he's a bad person, but bonds like that are hard to break and can lead to people making the wrong decision out of loyalty. 

[kismet]

3 minutes ago, Argenta said:

And Malcolm actually took hold of the Spear with his prosthetic hand - I noticed that and thought it was a bit odd!

Maybe he'll get a real hand again...  perhaps that was part of the plan. #SpearOfDesinyWishList

[MarkHB]

5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

And then she followed that up by asking Amaya to go as adult supervision - again, she was including Rip.  Seemed insulting to the previous captain.

I actually took that as her seeing Amaya getting too eager to use the Spear, and therefore sending her away from it.

[KirkB]

I know the real answer to this is it wouldn't make for very interesting TV. But they have a spaceship. Why not take the Spear and throw it into the sun? Even if that doesn't destroy it, somehow I don't think the Legion would be able to get to it.

It's true the Legends haven't given Mick much respect. They treat him like a thug. But to be fair, that's mostly because he acts like one. He shows no interest in any of them, their likes, or their problems. He did have the beginnings of a friendship with Ray before Nate showed up, but I think that was more because he missed Snart and Ray is just a nice guy. He ever had any interest in being a hero, that was Snart, and even now he's not usually out to help people, he just likes being let off his leash so he can fry Nazis and the occasional alien. I still like Mick though. Snart and Sara were the main reasons I started watching, but Mick has become a surprising one for me.

[darkestboy]

The gang really messed up this week, huh?

I missed Snart so I loved seeing him back and having with the League does work well enough, twist. 

I didn't like that Mick betrayed the gang but I got why it happened though.

Nice use of JRR Tolkien in this one too. I though his scenes with Rip were handled well too.

I hope the show isn't setting Amaya to leave in the finale though, 7/10