S01.E03: Mommie Dearest

[Growsonwalls]

This is a picture of her next to Bette, who was 5'3". Looks like BD is at least 5'10" or 5'11".

 

[Unclejosh]

Ah thank you.  That fits with how big she looked in the movie. 

[annzeepark914]

It just dawned on me this morning that Hedda Hopper had a son who was an actor, so I looked it up.  William Hopper, who played private investigator Paul Drake in the old Perry Mason series, was her son. 

[Milburn Stone]

29 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

It just dawned on me this morning that Hedda Hopper had a son who was an actor, so I looked it up.  William Hopper, who played private investigator Paul Drake in the old Perry Mason series, was her son. 

I've thought about this while watching Feud. Paul Drake seemed so "centered," I can't imagine him emerging from that womb. :)

[iMonrey]

Quote

I hope people are watching this wonderful little series, because I am enjoying every juicy moment!  Anybody out there know if it is getting good ratings?

It's getting decent ratings but not nearly as high as the ratings for The People vs OJ.

Quote

I guess I'm a little surprised they spoilered the ending to WHTBJ.  

It's such a classic film, though - that's like saying "They spoiled the ending to The Wizard of Oz!" 

Quote

If it hasn't been answered yet, it was Dylan Wittrock, brother of Murphy regular Finn Wittrock.

I'll be damned! Ryan Murphy sure is loyal to his stable of actors.

Quote

 It doesn't seem like 50-something actresses in Hollywood are all that sought after today.  

Women hovering around 50 can still get work so long as they can still play 30-somethings (cough*Jennifer Aniston*cough).

[ennui]

8 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

It just dawned on me this morning that Hedda Hopper had a son who was an actor, so I looked it up.  William Hopper, who played private investigator Paul Drake in the old Perry Mason series, was her son. 

I thought it odd that Hedda Hopper was also married to a Mr. Hopper. I heard a rumor that she never told who William's father was, and that's why he was also Hopper. 

I'm enjoying the series, but I have a vague sense that Bette Davis is coming off a lot better than Joan. I get the feeling that Joan was a difficult woman to like. I did cringe when Bette kicked her in the head; you can kill someone that way.

8 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

This is a picture of her next to Bette, who was 5'3". Looks like BD is at least 5'10" or 5'11".

 

Except that photo is shot from a low angle. BD didn't look extraordinarily tall in WHTBJ -- I'd guess she's more like 5'7"-ish. She's probably wearing heels in the photo.

[Unclejosh]

[le bordel chaud]

Bette Davis was rather petite. I believe she was 5'3" as another poster mentioned.

Even though B.D. is batshit crazy, she has aged well and looks good now for being nearly 70 years old.

I don't love some of the liberties they are taking here (I don't believe for a second that Bette slept with Aldrich or that she would have been openly critical of B.D.'s acting), but overall this has been very enjoyable so far.

Edited March 21, 2017 by delicatecutter

[bmoore4026]

18 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

And did he ever figure out that his BJ buddy was Victor Buono, not Charles Laughton?  Who was about 40 years older than Buono, of course!

It was dark, so, I doubt it.

[blaase]

6 hours ago, psychoticstate said:

In the 20s, Swanson WAS Desmond, insofar as popularity, fans and money.  And like Desmond, her popularity did began to wane with the talkies. 

Fortunately, Gloria was much stronger than Norma.  She would never shut herself away and become a recluse in a mansion that was falling down around her.  She picked herself up, dusted herself off, said "okay, that happened," and then kept it moving.  If for nothing else, she's supremely admirable for that in my book. 

And like you said, @blaase, she was beyond brilliant.  A gifted actress as well as a smart and astute businesswoman. 

I think the fact she agreed to star in Sunset Boulevard in the first place was courageous.

Using the extravagant body language and facial expressions that an ex silent film actress would through out the film while not being campy and making Norma both scary and sympathetic showed what an amazing actress she was.

 Too bad some critics considered it self parody, as it probably hurt her getting her much deserved oscar. In my opinion Sunset Boulevard was pretty dull when she was not on screen ( especially scenes with Joe and that 22 year old zzzz),  Gloria Swanson made that picture!

Edited March 21, 2017 by blaase

[Growsonwalls]

A lot of Norma's lines and skits were ad-libbed by Swanson. For instance, the Charlie Chaplin imitation was something she often did for friends at parties. 

One disadvantage about actors who acted in Billy Wilder movies was that he was so able to make the performance seem like an organic extension of who the actor WAS that I think the actors often got shafted during award season because the Academy Awards has always been into very self-conscious ACTING. For instance in The Maltese Falcon Humphrey Bogart didn't get nominated, and I think part of it was because Wilder really took facets of Bogart's natural screen persona and put them into the role. Wilder films stand the test of time for this reason but unfortunately many of the wonderful performances he elicited from actors and actresses didn't get the recognition they deserved. 

My all-time wuz-robbed was Barbara Stanwyck in Double Idemnity. But then again, Wilder took the tough, knowing Stanwyck persona and turned it into something so dark and twisted without people even realizing it.

[caracas1914]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:28 AM, Evagirl said:

I remember reading several years ago that Crawford had a daughter by Clark Gable and that the little girl looked so much like him, she had her ears surgically pinned back a little bit.  I don't know if it's true or not.  But I didn't read it in a tabloid.  

I believe that was Loretta Young.  

[Penman61]

44 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

For instance in The Maltese Falcon Humphrey Bogart didn't get nominated, and I think part of it was because Wilder really took facets of Bogart's natural screen persona and put them into the role. Wilder films stand the test of time for this reason but unfortunately many of the wonderful performances he elicited from actors and actresses didn't get the recognition they deserved. 

Wasn't The Maltese Falcon directed by John Huston?  Maybe you're thinking of Sabrina, which starred Bogart and was directed by Billy Wilder?

Edited March 22, 2017 by Penman61

[Growsonwalls]

3 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Wasn't The Maltese Falcon directed by John Huston?  Maybe you're thinking of Sabrina, which starred Bogart and was directed by Billy Wilder?

I had a brain fart. For some reason I thought Maltese Falcon was Billy Wilder. But anyway my point stands that many Billy Wilder films contain the sort of natural acting that the Academy never liked to award. For instance he elicits the most out of Marilyn Monroe despite her difficulties and multiple takes. In Double Idemnity he got so much out of Barbara Stanwyck and Fred MacMurray. But again, in Billy Wilder movies actors dont really look like they're "acting." They're being. 

[Chris Knight]

On 3/20/2017 at 3:09 PM, monakane said:

I was listening to the podcast, "You Must Remember This", and they had a quote from Joan about the situation and it was same quote they used in the show.  The thing that struck me was that Joan said she initiated it.  She didn't recognize the evil that was done to her.  It's heartbreaking.

The biography I read said that she didn't leave anything because there were trusts in place for Margo which her son oversees.

I have a severely disabled nephew and his grandfather also left his $ to another relative to administer for my nephew.  I think it's a pretty common practice. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Aaannnd there was the batshit Joan, the one who adopted children to prop her public image and feed her needy ego. I thought that moment of Joan writing the note to Christina was a clever way to reference Mommie Dearest without re-enacting its scenes.

Poor Joan realized during filming that Bette was acting circles around her. Trying to make herself look younger wasn't ever going to be the answer.

The sound effects in that porno theater scene were interesting.

Edited March 22, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[NutMeg]

13 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It's getting decent ratings but not nearly as high as the ratings for The People vs OJ.

It's such a classic film, though - that's like saying "They spoiled the ending to The Wizard of Oz!" 

I'll be damned! Ryan Murphy sure is loyal to his stable of actors.

Women hovering around 50 can still get work so long as they can still play 30-somethings (cough*Jennifer Aniston*cough).

Women overing 50 can still get work so long as they start producing shows that are good enough to get an audience (as in Big Little Lies, which together with Feud is now my must-see TV).

[Kath94]

On 3/20/2017 at 4:43 PM, movingtargetgal said:

Whatever Happened to Baby Jane will be airing on TCM on Wednesday at 1:45pm.  So everybody set your DVRs. :)   I have not watched it since I was 8 years old because it scared the HELL out of me.  The scene with the rat made my grandmother and I screamed so loud that her landlord came running up to stairs with a baseball bat because he thought someone was being attacked.  As much as I love Bette Davis and Joan Crawford I could never bring myself to watch this film.  However, this series has made me kinda want to watch it.  Wish me luck so that I can screw up my courage.

Thanks for this, MOVINGTARGETGAL!  I just set my DVR!

[atlantaloves]

Thanks, I am going to try and watch it too, I haven't seen it since it came out when I was a kid, and it scared the shit out of me too...especially that RAT...blaughhhhhhhh. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I have a vague sense that Bette Davis is coming off a lot better than Joan.

Agreed. "Mommie Dearest" has ensured the legacy of Joan Crawford as a crazy bitch but from all accounts I'm familiar with, Bette Davis was just as bad if not worse, and in fact I recall reading that Davis was unbelievably cruel to Crawford during filming. Davis was much better educated than Crawford and insulted her at every turn; Crawford took the insults silently because she didn't feel she was educated enough to respond in kind. She preferred to get her revenge quietly after the fact by calling all her Hollywood friends who were voting members in the academy and asking them not to vote for Davis.

[psychoticstate]

21 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

A lot of Norma's lines and skits were ad-libbed by Swanson. For instance, the Charlie Chaplin imitation was something she often did for friends at parties. 

One disadvantage about actors who acted in Billy Wilder movies was that he was so able to make the performance seem like an organic extension of who the actor WAS that I think the actors often got shafted during award season because the Academy Awards has always been into very self-conscious ACTING. For instance in The Maltese Falcon Humphrey Bogart didn't get nominated, and I think part of it was because Wilder really took facets of Bogart's natural screen persona and put them into the role. Wilder films stand the test of time for this reason but unfortunately many of the wonderful performances he elicited from actors and actresses didn't get the recognition they deserved. 

My all-time wuz-robbed was Barbara Stanwyck in Double Idemnity. But then again, Wilder took the tough, knowing Stanwyck persona and turned it into something so dark and twisted without people even realizing it.

I think this is also true with Bette's performance as Margo Channing in All About Eve.  Bette and Margo was very similar; some could theorize that Bette was playing Bette, or an extension of herself.   An unfair assessment, even with the parallels between the character and the real person. 

The best actors make you forget they are acting.

17 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Aaannnd there was the batshit Joan, the one who adopted children to prop her public image and feed her needy ego. I thought that moment of Joan writing the note to Christina was a clever way to reference Mommie Dearest without re-enacting its scenes.

Poor Joan realized during filming that Bette was acting circles around her. Trying to make herself look younger wasn't ever going to be the answer.

The sound effects in that porno theater scene were interesting.

My only gripe with this episode was Joan signing the card "Mommie Dearest."  From what I recall from Christina's book, Joan would sign "Mommie" to her cards and letters, not "Mommie Dearest."  

Beyond that, I don't agree that Joan only adopted children to prop her public image and feed her ego.   She certainly fed her ego with her sexual conquests.  And if it was merely public image she was looking at, why didn't she publicize the fact that she was paying to keep up to 2 rooms at the local hospital open and available to persons who couldn't afford treatment and was picking up the tab?   That information did not come out until after she died.  

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Agreed. "Mommie Dearest" has ensured the legacy of Joan Crawford as a crazy bitch but from all accounts I'm familiar with, Bette Davis was just as bad if not worse, and in fact I recall reading that Davis was unbelievably cruel to Crawford during filming. Davis was much better educated than Crawford and insulted her at every turn; Crawford took the insults silently because she didn't feel she was educated enough to respond in kind. She preferred to get her revenge quietly after the fact by calling all her Hollywood friends who were voting members in the academy and asking them not to vote for Davis.

Bette and Joan both behaved badly toward each other during filming.  I think part of that was their natural competition; the other part was fear.  Both were afraid the other was going to steal the picture.  Bob Aldrich, Jack Warner, Hedda Hopper and the like certainly did not help matters. 

I am always saddened when Crawford is only known (or best known) for that terrible book. 

[txhorns79]

Quote

Beyond that, I don't agree that Joan only adopted children to prop her public image and feed her ego.   She certainly fed her ego with her sexual conquests.  And if it was merely public image she was looking at, why didn't she publicize the fact that she was paying to keep up to 2 rooms at the local hospital open and available to persons who couldn't afford treatment and was picking up the tab?   That information did not come out until after she died.  

I think it could easily be both.  She was generous, but some of her generosity was about publicity. 

Quote

Using the extravagant body language and facial expressions that an ex silent film actress would through out the film while not being campy and making Norma both scary and sympathetic showed what an amazing actress she was.

I think Swanson was excellent in the movie, but there was a lot of camp going on there as well. 

[noveltylibrary65]

On 3/20/2017 at 11:18 AM, wings707 said:

I like this enough to stay with it but not dazzled.  Maybe it will get more interesting, for me, now that we are past Baby Jane.  I don't like Jessica Lange in this or anything else so that is at play, too.

I'm with you but it's Sarandon for me.

[Wings]

9 hours ago, noveltylibrary65 said:

I'm with you but it's Sarandon for me.

Funny, I don't particularly like her either but my dislike for Jessica looms larger.  

[annzeepark914]

I'm enjoying this program and Susan Sarandon's portrayal of Bette Davis.  She's got a lot of BD's mannerisms and the clipped style of speaking (w/o the OTT pronunciations that Davis used).  So glad someone (was that "Victor"?) got her to say, "What a dump!"  Only Bette Davis could say that and make it memorable (that's the only scene in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolf that I like, when "Martha" quotes BD as she looks at her mess of a kitchen). When they called a wrap of WHTBJ, I wondered what the heck are they going to do for the next 5 episodes.  It can't all be scenes of conniving as to who gets which Oscar, and Hedda blackmailing them into stabbing each other in the back for her column.  At least I hope not.

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

I wondered what the heck are they going to do for the next 5 episodes.

I'd imagine critical and audience reaction to the flick, the Oscar campaign and the Oscars themselves, the pre-production of Hush, Hush Sweet Charlotte, including the firing of JC and hiring of Olivia DeHavilland (Catherine Zeta-Jones).

[juliet73]

I just watched the movie for the fist time yesterday.  After seeing Bette Davis on screen, I think Susan Sarandon was good casting.  She doesn't have Davis's voice, but I think she's doing well with everything else.  I think Jessica Lange was not a good choice though after seeing Joan.  JC's facial features were so much softer than Lange's.  I don't know if it because JL had so much work done on her face, but I feel like I'm watching a very bad impersonation of Joan Crawford.  B.D. Merrill was awful as the neighbor's daughter! Regardless, I'm enjoying the show.  It was interesting to see the parts in the movie that were reenacted for the show. Baby Jane "kicking" Blanche, dragging her across the floor, the real beach scene and the studio beach scene.  I'm a little disappointed the show spoiled the ending of the movie, but I guess more people than not already knew.  I was surprised to see that Victor Buono was nominated for best supporting actor.  I didn't think he's performance warranted a nomination.  I had to laugh at the "suspense" in the movie and the music and the accompanied those scenes.  The close ups of the phone downstairs, the dead bird and rat, etc.  The big question I have about the movie is why didn't Blanche just yell out the window to the neighbor?  Instead she wasted time typing out her instructions and then wasted more time writing additional stuff.  

Edited March 23, 2017 by juliet73

[Giesela]

On 3/20/2017 at 7:49 PM, annewithaneee said:

My heart broke during Joan's explanation of her sexual abuse. I haven't really loved Susan Sarandon in this so far (I'm not seeing Bette at all but Susan Sarandon in vintage costuming), but she played her reaction so well.

 

I am not an old movie buff and seen any? maybe parts of, movies with Joan or Bette.  So my reactions to the actors and acting is based on limited viewing and some reading inbtw shows.  

First - love all the comments here.  Obvious many of you have a love of movies, Hollywood and acting. Very informative.  Second, I'm really enjoying the show.  That said I find myself sort of constantly picking at a "something is off" sort of feeling.  Neither actress is quite right for the part, both are good actress but aren't quite hitting it......something.  I think Sarandon has been getting better acting wise at the same time she seems like she is looking more and more like herself.  Her physicality, her hair, her expressions are becoming more Susan while her voice is a little more Bette though I don't think she has that hoarse say anything and dare you to think anything of it that I associate with Bette. Her timing is great though and I think that more than anything is saving her performance.   Or something. I don't know she just looks like Sarandon when she isn't in character as Jane.  I'll be think oh she's doing good and then, not so much.  With Langdon  I think it  is more her age. Or maybe that she looks more her age since Sarandon doesn't.  They have been making her look younger when needed as part of the storyline but she looks too old for the part.  I think she is doing a good job Joan's insecurities which I would not think of as part of her legend.  That may be on purpose but she's missing the right edge to that matter of factness and hardness about the business and what is necessary to get on top and stay there than Joan was famous for.  

So, enjoying tremendously, but feel the effort is overall a little flawed. 

[ennui]

45 minutes ago, juliet73 said:

The big question I have about the movie is why didn't Blanche just yell out the window to the neighbor?

I imagine that would be explained in the book. My take is that Blanche only wanted the neighbor to call her business manager (or was it doctor?), not the police. Blanche was still trying to project Jane.

Edited March 23, 2017 by ennui

[SmithW6079]

3 hours ago, juliet73 said:

JC's facial features were so much softer than Lange's.

Really? Because I'm watching Jessica Lange thinking her face is too soft. In photos I've seen of Crawford, her face always looks so hard and unforgiving.

I must confess I've never seen "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" I always thought it was one of those bad, campy thrillers that came out in the 1960s (like "I was a Teenage Frankenstein" or "Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter"), and I always felt sorry that Bette Davis and Joan Crawford were reduced to playing such roles.

Another great line from the episode, in the scene with Victor and the rough trade he picks up:

Quote

"Do you think I have talent?"
"Loads."

Ha!

[Florinaldo]

I was pleasantly intrigued by Dominic Burgess' portrayal of Victor Buono. He did not go for outright mimickry, which was a wise choice considering the huge challenge of reproducing VB's very idiosyncratic voice and diction without falling into caricature. Instead, he went for the general characteristics of the person and created a real character. It's amusing that DB is 34 whereas VB was 23-24 at the time of Baby Jane; he did always look old beyond his real age, which meant he often got the roles of heavies and gang  bosses, ruling over characters much older than he was; even his King Tut on Batman looks like a seasoned and mature academic, not the barely 30-year old actor he was. He was also much heavier-set than DB is.

Jack Warner had only one scene in that episode but he once again came across as the very prototype of the asshole producer.  I think that every mention I have seen of him in Hollywood biographies, most recently Peter Lorre's who resented being used only in stereotypical roles by JW despite his superior acting chops, indicates that he was hated by all the actors and directors who were under contract with him.

 

7 hours ago, juliet73 said:

JC's facial features were so much softer than Lange's.

I tend to agree. Having watched Johnny Guitar (1954) 2 weeks ago I think that JC certainly had very strongly defined facial features, but she still seemed to have a real face and real skin. In contrast, JL's face in this role looks like it was sculpted in putty and left to dry. Which works well for the visual impersonation, but may get in the way of the characterization. I think your comment might still apply to JC even by the time of her appearances in Strait-Jacket or in one segment of Rod Serling's Night Gallery, despite the wrinkles.

Edited March 24, 2017 by Florinaldo

[ennui]

3 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Because I'm watching Jessica Lange thinking her face is too soft. In photos I've seen of Crawford, her face always looks so hard and unforgiving.

I think the difference might be animation (not the cartoon kind). In WHTBJ, there's an early scene with Joan watching her old film, Jane says something about the neighbor, and Joan's face lights up. I can't imagine Jessica's face lighting up, over anything. Lange seems very self-contained. 

[Growsonwalls]

I think what it is is that Joan had very strikingly symmetrical features even in old age, whereas Jessica Lange's face never had that perfect symmetry and now with the plastic surgery has even less.

Joan:

Jessica:

[Athena5217]

4 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

Really? Because I'm watching Jessica Lange thinking her face is too soft. In photos I've seen of Crawford, her face always looks so hard and unforgiving.

I must confess I've never seen "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" I always thought it was one of those bad, campy thrillers that came out in the 1960s (like "I was a Teenage Frankenstein" or "Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter"), and I always felt sorry that Bette Davis and Joan Crawford were reduced to playing such roles.

Another great line from the episode, in the scene with Victor and the rough trade he picks up:

Ha!

Whatever Happened to Baby Jane is a classic horror movie like Psycho. It's not campy at all. In the hands of less talented actresses, it could have been really cheesy, but instead it is fantastically chilling.

i rewatched it recently, and I did not think B.D. was bad. It was a small part and her  role was a way to provide exposition so I barely noticed her.

[Giesela]

16 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

I must confess I've never seen "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" I always thought it was one of those bad, campy thrillers that came out in the 1960s (like "I was a Teenage Frankenstein" or "Jesse James Meets Frankenstein's Daughter"), and I always felt sorry that Bette Davis and Joan Crawford were reduced to playing such roles.

 

In doing general wiki type reading about the original actors and movies I was dismayed, well pissed off really, to see the that What Ever Happened to Baby Jane initiated a whole subgenre of movie called "psycho-hag" or psycho-biddy.  So sad.  Everyone seems to think its ok to piss on women.  Just gets worse as they get older. 

I think they have done stellar work with the sets and clothes and huge cast. I love seeing the houses and furniture.   I particularly love some of the clothes and have super love for that waist high fire place in Davis's house.  

[sugarbaker design]

12 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Whatever Happened to Baby Jane is a classic horror movie like Psycho. It's not campy at all.

Some peope, including myself, may beg to differ.  There's a scene in the Isaac Mizrahi documentary 'Unzipped' that features IM's fascination with the movie, including IM's imitation of BD's classic use of the word 'yarn't', it's  hysterical.

[SWLinPHX]

21 hours ago, ennui said:

I guess I'm a little surprised they spoilered the ending to WHTBJ. 

 

On 3/21/2017 at 0:03 PM, iMonrey said:

It's such a classic film, though - that's like saying "They spoiled the ending to The Wizard of Oz!"

Except all generations have seen "The Wizard of Oz".  I don't think many Millennials (or even all Gen X-ers) have seen "Baby Jane".

Quote

The big question I have about the movie is why didn't Blanche just yell out the window to the neighbor?

Because she was trying to get help without Jane hearing.  Jane rarely left the house.

[qtpye]

Quote

I think Sarandon has been getting better acting wise at the same time she seems like she is looking more and more like herself.  Her physicality, her hair, her expressions are becoming more Susan while her voice is a little more Bette though I don't think she has that hoarse say anything and dare you to think anything of it that I associate with Bette. Her timing is great though and I think that more than anything is saving her performance.   Or something. I don't know she just looks like Sarandon when she isn't in character as Jane.  I'll be think oh she's doing good and then, not so much.  With Langdon  I think it  is more her age. Or maybe that she looks more her age since Sarandon doesn't.  They have been making her look younger when needed as part of the storyline but she looks too old for the part.  I think she is doing a good job Joan's insecurities which I would not think of as part of her legend.  That may be on purpose but she's missing the right edge to that matter of factness and hardness about the business and what is necessary to get on top and stay there than Joan was famous for.  

 

If you gave me no information about this show and just showed me a couple of performance reels, I would know in a second that Sarandon was playing Bette Davis.  I do not think her Davis is exactly like the original, but I appreciate the actress putting her own spin on it so it does not seem like a campy parody.

If I looked at performance alone, I would have no idea who the heck Jessica Lange was supposed to be.  In fact, she almost looks so much older then Sarandon, I would wonder is she is playing Bette Davis's older relative.

I say this as a person, who has seen Lange look absolutely stunning and youthful on American Horror Story.  She is just not bringing Joan and Crawford's overly formal style of dressing, just does not suit Lange's natural good looks.  In comparison, Bette's earth tones, Yankee practicality, and fur coats (her touch of "Hollywood glamour") fit Sarandon like a glove.  Lange seems to be doing an impression of a daft old lady going to tea.  It just does not work for me.

Edited March 24, 2017 by qtpye

[iMonrey]

Quote

I must confess I've never seen "Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?" I always thought it was one of those bad, campy thrillers that came out in the 1960s

Well it's definitely campy at times but it was a successful film financially and many would argue it's a good story.

Quote

Except all generations have seen "The Wizard of Oz".  I don't think many Millennials (or even all Gen X-ers) have seen "Baby Jane".

Well, that's true but I think in a series like this that attempts to re-create a cult film there has to be a certain expectation that key scenes will be shown. You can't go into a show about a movie and rightfully expect not to be "spoiled" about that movie. 

[BingeyKohan]

3 hours ago, SWLinPHX said:

 

Except all generations have seen "The Wizard of Oz".  I don't think many Millennials (or even all Gen X-ers) have seen "Baby Jane".

Because she was trying to get help without Jane hearing.  Jane rarely left the house.

In that scene Jane is out of the house but there is loud rock music playing, presumably by the character played by BD although that isn't established. Which is why Blanche writes the note and throws it. I thought it was sort of funny the hand written postscript she thinks to add is longer than the part she actually types.

[psychoticstate]

Bette with then husband Gary Merrill, B.D., Michael and Margot. 

Joan in 1961 with daughters Cathy and Cynthia. 

[Florinaldo]

8 hours ago, Giesela said:

In doing general wiki type reading about the original actors and movies I was dismayed, well pissed off really, to see the that What Ever Happened to Baby Jane initiated a whole subgenre of movie called "psycho-hag" or psycho-biddy. 

Robert Aldrich directed a handful of those, among which I would include The Killing of Sister George, a film some people label as a grotesque gallery of lesbian stereotypes while others see it as as a cynically visionary work well in advance of its time. Curtis Harrington also did a couple of those psycho-biddies movies with Debbie Reynolds and Shelley Winters. None came up to the standards of WHTBJ or its follow-up Sweet Charlotte.

[juliet73]

8 hours ago, BingeyKohan said:

In that scene Jane is out of the house but there is loud rock music playing, presumably by the character played by BD although that isn't established. Which is why Blanche writes the note and throws it. I thought it was sort of funny the hand written postscript she thinks to add is longer than the part she actually types.

Okay, that makes sense. I didn't hear the music...probably because I was so fixated on those window bars Joan was hanging from. The metal "gates" on the front door were pretty awesome too. 

[caracas1914]

I have to keep reminding myself that Jessica and Susan are actually 10+ years older than Joan and Bette at the time of filming WHTBJ.

[hippielamb]

On 3/20/2017 at 0:21 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm confused. The last episode ended with a big fight between Bette and her daughter, and Bette ordering her daughter back to the East Coast. This week there's no mention of it and BD is still hanging around the set. WTF? Did I miss something?

 

I thought the same thing. Especially because it seemed to me like an overreaction to send her to Maine for flirting. 

On 3/21/2017 at 9:16 AM, asabovesobelow said:

I think that sums it up perfectly. I pity Joan and loathe her at the same time. I'm absolutely loving this series, but it could also be because I wasn't super familiar with either actress beforehand. All I really knew of Joan was Mommie Dearest, and all I knew of Bette was clips here and there. So far, it seems like Bette was a talented, independent, conflicted woman, whereas Joan was an insecure, pathetic mess. The dinner scene was heartbreaking on so many levels.

 

Joan (as she is portrayed here) is really a sad person. She is so insecure. It makes me feel bad for her, while her controlling nature is hard to take. 

22 hours ago, qtpye said:

 

If you gave me no information about this show and just showed me a couple of performance reels, I would know in a second that Sarandon was playing Bette Davis.  I do not think her Davis is exactly like the original, but I appreciate the actress putting her own spin on it so it does not seem like a campy parody.

If I looked at performance alone, I would have no idea who the heck Jessica Lange was supposed to be.  In fact, she almost looks so much older then Sarandon, I would wonder is she is playing Bette Davis's older relative.

I say this as a person, who has seen Lange look absolutely stunning and youthful on American Horror Story.  She is just not bringing Joan and Crawford's overly formal style of dressing, just does not suit Lange's natural good looks.  In comparison, Bette's earth tones, Yankee practicality, and fur coats (her touch of "Hollywood glamour") fit Sarandon like a glove.  Lange seems to be doing an impression of a daft old lady going to tea.  It just does not work for me.

I like Sarandon's performance more, probably because I have followed her career more and like watching her. I noticed a little bit of an accent when she was playing Bette that I didn't see before. 

[enoughcats]

8 hours ago, caracas1914 said:

I have to keep reminding myself that Jessica and Susan are actually 10+ years older than Joan and Bette at the time of filming WHTBJ.

Look beyond their faces.  Hands, sometimes necks, knees,  skin changes with age and, short of doing stuff to it, it hits almost all of us.

Over on Tom and Lorenzo, there's a magnificent comparison of scenes from WEHTBJ and Feud.  Look at the textures of their faces as well as the smile lines around their mouths.  To me, I think the movie movie actresses' faces have more expression, maybe because older age hasn't caught up with them.

http://tomandlorenzo.com/2017/03/feud-bette-and-joan-v-what-ever-happened-to-baby-jane-side-by-side-comparison/

[Sew Sumi]

Thanks for the link to TLo. I haven't looked at their site in ages (probably since they ditched Project Runway, which is what gave them their start). Lorenzo did a masterful job with thoseside-by-side screencaps. 

[ennui]

5 hours ago, enoughcats said:

there's a magnificent comparison of scenes from WEHTBJ and Feud.  Look at the textures of their faces as well as the smile lines around their mouths.  To me, I think the movie movie actresses' faces have more expression, maybe because older age hasn't caught up with them.

They didn't have Botox. Their faces moved.  

Joan was so much more beautiful than Jessica. And I loved Bette's fearlessness. 

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 5:14 PM, psychoticstate said:

Totally agree.  As much as I love All About Eve, Sunset Boulevard is phenomenally classic Hollywood gold.  Gloria Swanson WAS Norma Desmond.  For anyone interested in the golden era of Hollywood, starting with silent films, Swanson is a fascinating character and a woman much ahead of her time - -from being a healthy eating advocate long before it was the norm (she was a vegetarian and anti-sugar crusader) to producing her own films and having her own fashion line.  Truly a fascinating woman. 

Her career took a turn for the worse when she had an affair with Joseph P. Kennedy (father of the late president).  After she turned to him for financial advice, he decided to invest in the film business and engineered a disastrous movie for Sawnson called Queen Kelly.

On ‎3‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 6:28 PM, mochamajesty said:

I seriously want this to happen.

Can you imagine Roger Sterling and Joan Crawford? LOL

I think it was way back in S1 that Betty Draper lamented how old Joan Crawford looked in a movie she and Don had recently seen. 

 

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 5:44 PM, ennui said:

They didn't have Botox. Their faces moved.  

Joan was so much more beautiful than Jessica. And I loved Bette's fearlessness. 

Different stroke and all, but I've never found Joan Crawford attractive let alone beautiful.  I think Lange in her heyday could be quite beautiful, but I've never been that impressed by her acting.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Inquisitionist

[SWLinPHX]

37 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

I think Lange in her heyday could be quite beautiful, but I've never been that impressed by her acting.

She was nominated for an Oscar portraying Frances Farmer wasn't she?     ...and she wasn't half bad opposite "King Kong" either.