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“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

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55 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

What I meant was that Dean found his own way out and Sam was not needed at all.

 

"..... and Sam"  Yeah,  still,  there was.quite a pregnant.pause there.

Actually, Chuck didn't have a pregnant pause. I put the ellipses in as an extension to highlight that part of  Chuck's word that were omitted form the quote.

For clarity: From the transcript:
 

Quote

 

DEAN: What about us? What about Earth? 

CHUCK: Earth will be fine. It's got you and Sam.

 

There was not much if any pregnant pause in the way Rob read that line.

But my point is that Chuck didn't leave out Sam from that at all .he was leaving Earth to the care of BOTH Winchesters.

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37 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I guess I'm not understanding your point here.

Dean didn't find his own way out is my point.  He had no idea he could get out at all. He was trying to find Cas when Benny found him and told him how they could get out. Dean accepted the terms of potentially deadly deal from a vampire, the very monsters he spent his life killing, who wanted a way out himself. He didn't know if he, Cas and Benny would all die coming back.  The way out found Dean.

So to me, if Dean needed help on the Purgatory side, then Dean needed help on Earth's side, from Sam or someone. Just because Sam took himself out of the game, doesn't mean he wasn't needed.

Benny helped to get Dean out of purgatory but Dean was shown to do a lot on his own in purgatory as well.  He wasn't just sitting around letting Benny take care of everything and Dean also helped to get Benny out of purgatory.  Really, they helped each other.

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2 minutes ago, Reganne said:

I agree.  God himself gave Dean high praise.  He mentioned Sam after a long pause.  Almost as an afterthought but at the same time that didn't bother me.  Dean was the one standing right in front of him.  Just because Sam was added after a long pause, I don't see how that takes away from Dean or makes it any less so.

I didn't interpret that as Chuck thinking of Sam as an afterthought but more than he was talking to Dean and did want to let Dean know he was leaving Earth to them.. Now, for me personally, I hate Chuck. I think he's a jerk and blows off his responsibilities to humanity and the angels. I don't consider it high praise for hi!ntonsay Earth has the Winchesters. I see that as him blowing smoke up Dean's ass to justify him bailing on Earth again and loading Earth's responsibility onto Dean and Sam.

But that is my personal beef with Chuck and  I can see how others see that as praise and if it is praise for Dean that praise extended to Sam, IMO

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3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I didn't interpret that as Chuck thinking of Sam as an afterthought but more than he was talking to Dean and did want to let Dean know he was leaving Earth to them.. Now, for me personally, I hate Chuck. I think he's a jerk and blows off his responsibilities to humanity and the angels. I don't consider it high praise for hi!ntonsay Earth has the Winchesters. I see that as him blowing smoke up Dean's ass to justify him bailing on Earth again and loading Earth's responsibility onto Dean and Sam.

But that is my personal beef with Chuck and  I can see how others see that as praise and if it is praise for Dean that praise extended to Sam, IMO

Why would it matter if praise extended to Sam as well?  This was brought up because it was claimed that no high up supernatural figure praised Dean.  In fact, not only did God praise Dean by thinking he was doing such a good job saving the world, he trusted him to continue.  That the world would be fine with Dean..... and Sam.  Amara was also enamoured with Dean.  Fascinated by him and she couldn't give two craps about Sam.  Both of these are the biggest supernatural entities on the show and both of them have shown to think highly of Dean.

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6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Benny helped to get Dean out of purgatory but Dean was shown to do a lot on his own in purgatory as well.  He wasn't just sitting around letting Benny take care of everything and Dean also helped to get Benny out of purgatory.  Really, they helped each other.

 

6 minutes ago, Reganne said:

Benny helped to get Dean out of purgatory but Dean was shown to do a lot on his own in purgatory as well.  He wasn't just sitting around letting Benny take care of everything and Dean also helped to get Benny out of purgatory.  Really, they helped each other.

I wasn't implying otherwise. I literally said that Dean survived on his own for awhile until Benny found him. I never said nor implied that Dean and Benny didn't help each other nor was I implying that  Dean was helpless. My point is that Dean did not and could not have gotten  out of Purgatory by himself, which was the original assertion being made.

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1 minute ago, Reganne said:

Why would it matter if praise extended to Sam as well?  This was brought up because it was claimed that no high up supernatural figure praised Dean.  In fact, not only did God praise Dean by thinking he was doing such a good job saving the world, he trusted him to continue.  That the world would be fine with Dean..... and Sam.  Amara was also enamoured with Dean.  Fascinated by him and she couldn't give two craps about Sam.  Both of these are the biggest supernatural entities on the show and both of them have shown to think highly of Dean.

? I wasn't making the argument that Dean didn't get praise from supernatural beings. Dean was receiving praise along with Sam. He wasn't being singled out as the quote IMO implied. But maybe I interpreted that incorrectly.if so, apologies.

Dean has been praised by supernatural beings, Amara, Alastair, Abaddon, Cain, and I'm sure a few others in addition to Chuck.

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

 

I wasn't implying otherwise. I literally said that Dean survived on his own for awhile until Benny found him. I never said nor implied that Dean and Benny didn't help each other nor was I implying that  Dean was helpless. My point is that Dean did not and could not have gotten  out of Purgatory by himself, which was the original assertion being made.

Personally, I thought the assertion was that Dean had the hand in getting himself out of purgatory and not Sam.  I think this came about because of claims of Dean simply just being a support system for the "Almighty and powerful" Sam.  How the writers aren't showing Dean's strengths as well as some would like yet enhancing Sam's.  

However, when you really look at it, through out the series, Dean saves Sam more than the other way around which is a sign of strength.  Dean was the one who made a deal to bring Sam back to life is season 2 with success.  Sam failed when he tried to bring back Dean from hell.  Dean was successful in convincing Death to retrieve Sam's soul.  (a super powerful supernatural being at that)  Yes, Death was the one who did it, but it would not have happened at all if not for Dean.  Then when Sam finally goes to lengths ends to save Dean from the MOC, disaster strikes.  The Darkness is released.  I think... though I could be wrong that that is what they were trying to imply.  If Dean weren't shown as important and a strong character, why has there been instances written like this?  

Now, I'm not claiming the writers are making Sam weak. (Though I have heard people call Sam a weak character on multiple occasions which I never agreed with)  It's just the way the story rolls.  

Just now, catrox14 said:

? I wasn't making the argument that Dean didn't get praise from supernatural beings. Dean was receiving praise along with Sam. He wasn't being singled out as the quote IMO implied. But maybe I interpreted that incorrectly.if so, apologies.

Dean has been praised by supernatural beings, Amara, Alastair, Abaddon, Cain, and I'm sure a few others in addition to Chuck.

Yeah, I don't think it was you who made that claim.  

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1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

There was not much if any pregnant pause in the way Rob read that line.

There was definitely a pause.  I don't if it was pregnant or not. (what an odd phrase).  I don't think anything was meant by it, though.  Dean was in front of him. 

I think it's a good think Sam and Dean don't spend as much time keeping score as some fans do, though.  They would never get anything done.  Vampires would be running amok.  Demons would be fully in charge.  There would be nowhere safe from witches spewing their bodily fluids.

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11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Why not have Sam be more appreciative?

Because that wouldn't be as dramatic? Don't ask me. I got the feeling that Carver really didn't like Sam much in season 8 and seemed to prefer his creation Benny, because Carver and the writers had no problem having Benny be appreciative of Dean. So to me that is less a reflection on Dean and more a way of digging at Sam, but I understand that that's just my opinion. To me there really was no reason to do it except to create drama between the brothers and potentially the fans.

11 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

  And they also wrote Sam as being a super hunter, despite being too weak to stand.  

I think Sam maybe killed two or three things after taking on the trails? I'm not sure how that equates to "super hunter." During season 8 and season 9, Dean's kills waaaay outnumbered Sam's to an almost embarrassing amount, and that was just the ones onscreen. * There were untold numbers he killed in purgatory that we never even saw.  Sam spent a great deal of season 8 getting taken hostage and being tied to little chairs and being saved by Dean and/or people of the week (Henry, Jody, etc.). I don't understand why there are complaints when Sam gets to actually kill something every once in a while. He is supposed to be a hunter, too. Not just Dean.


* I would direct you to @Demented Daisy's data analysis, but I can never remember where it is (I really should mark those things somehow, because they were awesome and fascinating.)

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On 1/30/2016 at 3:19 PM, Demented Daisy said:

Season 8 numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 5

Sam Saves -- 3

Sam Kills -- 1

 

Dean Plans -- 3

Dean Saves -- 5

Dean Kills -- 3 (plus 4 onscreen kills in Purgatory)

 

Joint Plans -- 4

Joint Saves -- 3

Joint Kills -- 7

 

No Plan -- 11

No Save -- 12

No Kill -- 12

 

On 1/31/2016 at 10:28 AM, Demented Daisy said:

Season 9 numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 3

Sam Saves -- 2

Sam Kills -- 1 (ETA Mother's Little Helper)

 

Dean Plans -- 4

Dean Saves -- 6

Dean Kills -- 9

 

Joint Plans -- 3

Joint Saves -- 2

Joint Kills -- 1 (Blade Runners)

 

No Plan -- 13

No Save -- 13

No Kill -- 12

 

On 1/31/2016 at 1:57 PM, Demented Daisy said:

 

Season 10 numbers:

 

Sam Plans -- 11

Sam Saves -- 2

Sam Kills -- 4

 

Dean Plans -- 2

Dean Saves -- 4

Dean Kills -- 11

 

Joint Plans -- 3

Joint Saves -- 4

Joint Kills -- 1 (Book of the Damned)

 

No Plan -- 7

No Save -- 13

No Kill -- 7

Starts on page 23 of the Bitterness thread.  BTW, I'm not doing the rest of season 12.  I'm not doing any additional seasons.  I don't need the stress.  Sorry to everyone who enjoyed my analyses.

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1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

 

 

Starts on page 23 of the Bitterness thread.  BTW, I'm not doing the rest of season 12.  I'm not doing any additional seasons.  I don't need the stress.  Sorry to everyone who enjoyed my analyses.

Demented, thank you for all your work on this.  We do appreciate it.

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5 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

 

 

Starts on page 23 of the Bitterness thread.  BTW, I'm not doing the rest of season 12.  I'm not doing any additional seasons.  I don't need the stress.  Sorry to everyone who enjoyed my analyses.

I'll echo that.  And I totally support you not adding stress.  

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Brought over from the "All Episodes Thread." The first part of my response here is the same as over there. The second is an addition, because it likely verges into the writers and Sam versus Dean territory:

14 hours ago, ahrtee said:
Quote

My quote: As for Dean being worried about Sam getting out of control, obviously that turned out to be true, but I didn't see Dean not being allowed to make that argument. If I remember correctly he did - it was even brought up in pretty much those terms "slippery slope" - starting from season 3, and if I'm remembering correctly, Dean brought it up in those terms more than once. For me, it was actually Sam who was given the strawman's arguments - or none at all - in season 9, when he wasn't even allowed to bring up that Dean taking on the mark - and the power associated with it - was potentially just as much a slippery slope. Sam's only objection was that Dean had been working with Crowley.

Well, one difference is that the Mark was already a done deal by the time Sam found out about it, so he couldn't just talk him out of taking it on.   And TBH, neither one seemed terribly worried about it until it turned out that it was changing him, and by that time, Dean had no control over it and couldn't stop if he wanted.  And I seem to recall Sam telling him not to use the blade until it was absolutely necessary, even locking it away from him, so he did recognize/actually used the argument that it was dangerous.  It's just that it wasn't the same "slippery slope" as demon blood, because Sam *did* have the choice of stopping/not using his powers (though he'd probably go through withdrawal), but Dean didn't.  Whether he used the FB or not, the Mark was still going to change him.  

I agree that the mark was a done deal. That wasn't the point of what I was saying. The post that I quoted was saying that Dean's arguments concerning Sam's powers were all strawman's arguments (demon blade vs Sam's exorcism) and that Dean wasn't "allowed" to bring up other arguments. My point was that Dean did bring up other arguments - a lot - and starting way back in season 3. It wasn't like Dean was written as all "okay Sam, you're right, your way does seem to be better" after their disagreement. Dean mentioned a slippery slope, that God didn't want Sam doing it, and that it was doing something to Sam either previously or all during the season... and then Dean was right. That was my point: that - in my opinion - Dean's arguments weren't shown as strawman's arguments, or diminished, but that his point of view was reiterated and shown to be the right one all along.

And I compared this to when Dean was the one who got the powers. As you said, neither one seemed very concerned.... which was my actual point. Sam wasn't even given an argument - never mind even a strawman's one - concerning the mark. And my question is - why not? If anyone had a reason to question Dean making a decision to take on the mark without considering the consequences at that point, it would have been Sam. Dean questioned Sam's throwing in with Ruby and his reckless use of power in season 4 and Dean made a questionable decision just earlier that season concerning lying about Gadreel. But when Dean is caught with taking on the mark of Cain, Sam is shown to get annoyed because he worked with Crowley. That's it. Sam even later helps Dean in finding the First Blade. It is Crowley who takes and hides it from Dean.

In my opinion, Sam is pretty much written as a passive non-entity - or worse - in most of season 9. He's there to be taken over by Gadreel and then to (ineffectively) bitch about it later. Any legitimate complaints Sam had about Gadreel are diminished, because Sam's arguments concerning Gadreel are diminished - in that Sam isn't allowed to bring up the actual points that he should be angry about. And Sam is neutered when it comes to the mark of Cain in that he just passively accepts what Dean does there as if he himself hasn't done something similar and learned - the hard way - that it had very bad consequences. But nope, Sam just shrugs and says nothing, even helps Dean find the First Blade, and then has to later almost grovel in saying that Dean was right, they need to defeat Abbadon - so by extension Dean was right to take on the mark to accomplish that goal. And considering all that happened to Sam in season 9, to me it seems weird that he's just accepting Dean's decisions here. Why? What happened during this season that should be telling Sam that Dean's decision here was the best one? Then even the Gadreel thing was turned around on Sam, and all of a sudden Gadreel isn't really a bad guy.... just misunderstood. Really? To me that was a non-argument. What Dean was given in season 4 as an argument was a goldmine in my opinion compared to that.

In my opinion, if the roles had been reversed in season 9... well, nevermind they wouldn't be, because I couldn't see the writers - especially Carver - taking Sam's side in any of that. But when season 10 came along, and Sam was doing the saving against Dean's will, the writers made sure that Dean was given numerous "don't do this, Sam"s and "Only bad can come from this Sam"s arguments. There was no passive Dean like we saw with Sam in season 9....

I guess my point of all of this was: at least a strawman's argument - which I didn't think it was per se - is better than no argument at all. And all too often Sam is either given no argument or an argument that makes no sense (even when he has a legitimate point) and is then proven wrong usually on top of that.


A bit bitter? Yup - Carver's reign as showrunner did that to me. I was generally happy with the show up until that point, but Carver's reign - to me - definitely seemed to play fast and loose with the sides / points that he / they agreed with and didn't really show two legitimate sides anymore. The subtlety was all but quashed and everything was pretty much as presented.

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2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And I compared this to when Dean was the one who got the powers. As you said, neither one seemed very concerned.... which was my actual point. Sam wasn't even given an argument - never mind even a strawman's one - concerning the mark. And my question is - why not? If anyone had a reason to question Dean making a decision to take on the mark without considering the consequences at that point, it would have been Sam. Dean questioned Sam's throwing in with Ruby and his reckless use of power in season 4 and Dean made a questionable decision just earlier that season concerning lying about Gadreel. But when Dean is caught with taking on the mark of Cain, Sam is shown to get annoyed because he worked with Crowley. That's it. Sam even later helps Dean in finding the First Blade. It is Crowley who takes and hides it from Dean.

I don't really want to go into bitch/jerk on this, but I do want to question and/or clarify this point.  Sam wasn't given an argument concerning the mark because *there was nothing left to say.*  He *did* (IIRC) question if it was a bad thing, but THERE WAS NOTHING HE COULD DO.  HE COULDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING, so there was no point in saying "you did a bad thing."  He certainly did that enough in season 3 with Dean selling his soul and in season 9 with Gadreel (both after the fact, too, so all he was doing was venting).  So if you want to get angry about the fact that Dean goes ahead and does his stupid things without first consulting Sam, feel free.  That's completely valid.  But to argue that Sam didn't get to tell Dean *not* to do something because it would be bad *after it's already been done* is pointless.  The only reason to challenge Sam about Ruby (or even trying to remove the mark) was to get him to change what he was doing, because he thought it was bad.  But it was still ultimately up to Sam to decide what he wanted to do.  (And I'm not touching the "Sam's always wrong" trope with a 10-foot pole, even in Bitch/Jerk.)  

About Sam *only* being angry because Dean worked with Crowley, I think you're not giving Sam (or Jared) enough credit here.  Sam was clearly worried about Dean (doing something stupid *again* without asking first) so he was angry that Dean trusted Crowley's word after all the times he'd screwed them.  That's what I got from Jared's performance.  But I really don't understand your comment that Sam was being passive.  I'm just not sure what you expected him to do?  He couldn't change what's already been done.  He expressed his concerns.  *He's the one who managed to talk Dean into dropping the FB in Blade Runners, the first time we saw its effect on Dean.*  No one else could have done that.  My memory's a little vague on the sequence of events, but I seem to remember Crowley taking the blade from them at that point (for *his* protection) and said he'd give it back when they found Abaddon.  Later, when they had the blade in their possession, Sam kept it in a box away from Dean and asked that he leave it behind except when they actually needed it.  (Of course, Dean ignored it, just like he ignored Sam's season 1 request to leave the Colt behind, but for different reasons.  And no, it's not that "Sam was proved wrong.")  

 

27 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

In my opinion, Sam is pretty much written as a passive non-entity - or worse - in most of season 9. He's there to be taken over by Gadreel and then to (ineffectively) bitch about it later. Any legitimate complaints Sam had about Gadreel are diminished, because Sam's arguments concerning Gadreel are diminished - in that Sam isn't allowed to bring up the actual points that he should be angry about. And Sam is neutered when it comes to the mark of Cain in that he just passively accepts what Dean does there as if he himself hasn't done something similar and learned - the hard way - that it had very bad consequences. But nope, Sam just shrugs and says nothing, even helps Dean find the First Blade, and then has to later almost grovel in saying that Dean was right, they need to defeat Abbadon - so by extension Dean was right to take on the mark to accomplish that goal. And considering all that happened to Sam in season 9, to me it seems weird that he's just accepting Dean's decisions here. Why? What happened during this season that should be telling Sam that Dean's decision here was the best one? 

 

I think it's fascinating how many people see things so differently.  Consider how many comments I've read (and I'm sure you've seen them) about how *Dean* is the one being passive and treated badly by Carver and Co.  

I'm not sure what you think Sam wasn't "allowed" to bring up, because I sure heard him vent about just about everything.   About the bolded part (my emphasis), admitting that they need to do something distasteful is NOT the same as groveling and admitting the other one was right, or, by the same reasoning, Dean had to "grovel" in season 5 and admit that Sam was right to drink the demon blood in order to defeat Lilith.  So they can dislike the action--whether taking on the Mark or drinking demon blood--but still acknowledge that it's necessary to accomplish the important goal--killing Abaddon/Lilith.  I don't see either of them as admitting that their decision was the best one--just that it was their best *option* considering what they were facing.  

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58 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

hat was my point: that - in my opinion - Dean's arguments weren't shown as strawman's arguments, or diminished, but that his point of view was reiterated and shown to be the right one all along.

It's still a strawman though because it's setting up only two choices for both Dean and Sam when a third existed. It's also implying that Dean doesn't care if he hurts the meatsuits in general, which we know is false. 

It presumes that Sam doesn't want to do it the old way which is unreasonable for Sam to just be like "No my way is better".

The writers took out the most logical argument Dean had for Sam to not use the Hand of Ipecac, which made Dean look like an uncaring asshat about meatsuits, and it made Sam look like an arrogant dick. 

Dean's arguments about Sam's slippery slope were valid and allowed and were also dismissed as Dean being too stubborn and judgmental to see that Sam was doing good.

That one option in writing served neither character. 

Edited by catrox14 · Reason: clarifying thoughts
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5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Dean's arguments about Sam's slippery slope were valid and allowed and were also dismissed as Dean being too stubborn and judgmental to see that Sam was doing good.

I don't remember Dean's argument being dismissed by anyone other than Sam who had addiction reasons for doing so. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't remember anyone else dismissing Dean's arguments. Castiel agreed with them - since Castiel was one of the ones to give the argument against it. Bobby questioned it due to his own "maybe we should use Sam as a bomb" argument, but he didn't dismiss Dean's concerns either and ultimately went along with Dean's call to lock Sam up. I don't remember anyone in show calling Dean too stubborn to see that Sam was doing good - except maybe Sam or Ruby, and both of their opinions are suspect, so I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I don't really want to go into bitch/jerk on this, but I do want to question and/or clarify this point.  Sam wasn't given an argument concerning the mark because *there was nothing left to say.*  He *did* (IIRC) question if it was a bad thing, but THERE WAS NOTHING HE COULD DO.  HE COULDN'T CHANGE ANYTHING, so there was no point in saying "you did a bad thing."  He certainly did that enough in season 3 with Dean selling his soul and in season 9 with Gadreel (both after the fact, too, so all he was doing was venting).  So if you want to get angry about the fact that Dean goes ahead and does his stupid things without first consulting Sam, feel free.  That's completely valid.  But to argue that Sam didn't get to tell Dean *not* to do something because it would be bad *after it's already been done* is pointless.  

You actually have some good points here - I'm one to admit when I'm wrong - however about the bolded part... that's what I thought, also... but looking back on the transcript *** I found out I was actually very wrong about that - Sam didn't really mention anything about Dean taking on the mark... which I also admitted to being wrong earlier in either this thread or the "All Episode" one: I had also claimed that Sam had questioned Dean's decision, and I was actually wrong. But...

*** I did look mainly at the transcript when deciding that Sam didn't object so with this...

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

About Sam *only* being angry because Dean worked with Crowley, I think you're not giving Sam (or Jared) enough credit here.  Sam was clearly worried about Dean (doing something stupid *again* without asking first) so he was angry that Dean trusted Crowley's word after all the times he'd screwed them.  That's what I got from Jared's performance.  

you could very well be correct. I dislike the second half of season 9, and so admit to not having seen it all that much, so I might be missing something that was in Jared's performance that didn't come across in the script. However what I mean by passive was that Sam went along with Dean to find the First Blade to begin with rather than ask if it was actually a good idea or not. Yes, Dean already did have the mark, but he didn't have the blade yet, and in terms of potential badness, in my opinion, that could have been questioned a bit more (example below). And unsurprisingly yes, more bad did happen when the blade was put into Dean's hand, but - and I could be remembering wrongly - I don't remember anyone really questioning that before Dean actually got ahold of the blade. But again, I could be wrong, because I really haven't seen season 9 all that much.

6 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not sure what you think Sam wasn't "allowed" to bring up, because I sure heard him vent about just about everything.   About the bolded part (my emphasis), admitting that they need to do something distasteful is NOT the same as groveling and admitting the other one was right, or, by the same reasoning, Dean had to "grovel" in season 5 and admit that Sam was right to drink the demon blood in order to defeat Lilith.  So they can dislike the action--whether taking on the Mark or drinking demon blood--but still acknowledge that it's necessary to accomplish the important goal--killing Abaddon/Lilith.  I don't see either of them as admitting that their decision was the best one--just that it was their best *option* considering what they were facing.

While I agree that I was a bit over the top with "groveling," (maybe that's a bit strong), Sam did say "you were right." Sam clarified with "Finding Abaddon," but it was more than that, because using the blade would have to be a part of that. I agree that it was Sam admitting to having to do something distasteful, but I don't know... maybe Sam could've said "I don't like it, and I'm worried what it will do to you, Dean, but..." and then say "you're right" and the rest. That's not really complaining after the fact, in my opinion, but expressing legitimate concerns rather than just saying "you're right" and leaving it at that.

For example, Dean expressed very similar concerns when Sam had to drink demon blood to take on Lucifer, and continued to do so until the end. When Bobby asked if Dean was okay - after the demons were drained - Dean very specifically said that he was not okay with it. That didn't make Dean a jerk or anything, because he had legitimate reason to not be okay with it, and the character was allowed to keep those concerns even as he was going along with what had to be done. As for killing Lilith, I don't remember any time when Dean had to get on board with Sam drinking blood for that, because he did not in any way do so that I remember (Bobby considered it but not Dean). And Dean did not admit that Sam was right about killing Lilith - and Sam wasn't of course. So I don't see those two things as comparable, myself, but that's just my opinion on that.

In addition to the above - i.e. Sam being fairly mute on his concerns about Dean using the blade against Abaddon - what I meant about Sam not being "allowed" to bring things up, I was basically talking about the lying and yes, as you mentioned, Dean making these decisions by himself without considering what Sam would have to say about it. I agree that the writers did have Sam vent about a whole lot... except what he should have been legitimately complaining about. Except for one or two exceptions - "Road Trip" where Sam did mention the lying and whenever it was that Sam lamented about Kevin's death - the writers basically gave Sam arguments that either 1) they knew were false - like that Dean only made decisions when they didn't affect him, which we, the viewers, knew was entirely false 2) were highly questionable - like "I was ready to die," because well sort of but not really or 3) the writers knew were going to be moot and / or proven to be wrong in the end - that he, Sam, wouldn't do the same thing. Why instead of having Sam say hurtful, untrue things and then focusing on Dean's pained face couldn't the writers have had Sam talking about the lying and how betrayed that made Sam feel and complain that Dean went and made all of these decisions and he wasn't acknowledging that the decisions might have possibly been bad ones and then followed Sam as he left the room and show how hurt Sam was? Because the arguments they did give Sam mostly ended up being nullified or muted by the end of the season. Sam would do the same thing, Dean's decisions/sacrifices obviously did affect Dean (he became a demon), and Sam apparently wasn't ready to die.

For me, the things Sam should/could have been legitimately angry about were... maybe whitewashed is the word(?) or Sam was turned into a wimp about, in my opinion. Gadreel was turned into a misunderstood, redeemed hero who Sam declared didn't mean him any real harm and was a "real friend," so by extension how bad could it have been that Dean helped him take over Sam's body? Maybe it's just me who finds that seemingly "passive" of Sam - especially since he was so angry with Dean previously about it, but now all of a sudden Sam's all cool with Gadreel and he's not such a bad guy. Wait what? ...when did that happen? When did Sam change his opinion on that and become all "ehn, sure this being killed Kevin and who knows who else using my body, invaded my private thoughts and used them against me and the people close to me, wiped my memories and made me think I was going crazy, and then trapped me in my own mind, but I guess he's not really a bad guy after all." Maybe "passive" is the wrong word... maybe "wishy washy" is better? And to add insult to injury, yes, Sam did get Dean to drop the blade, and save a couple of souls, but that's pretty much all he did. He had no part in killing Abaddon, he accepted being told by Dean "follow my orders or else," and then spent the final battle knocked unconscious until he could run in to watch Dean die and admit "I lied." I guess that's what I mean by "passive" - maybe that's the wrong word, but I can't think of one that expresses what I mean. That basically everything that Sam - legitimately in my opinion - expressed concerns about were somehow lessened or Sam was made to change his mind on. Sam basically didn't stick to any of his convictions by the end of the season and little he did made much difference in the mytharc. Maybe passive isn't the right word to express that, but I'm not sure what word would be better.

Hopefully some of that made sense?

7 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think it's fascinating how many people see things so differently.  Consider how many comments I've read (and I'm sure you've seen them) about how *Dean* is the one being passive and treated badly by Carver and Co.

Me too, since I don't see it myself. And I normally don't see it for Sam either... until Carver came along. And it's mostly season 9 for the reasons I gave above, though the first part of season 8 was pretty bad also.

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20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

don't remember Dean's argument being dismissed by anyone other than Sam who had addiction reasons for doing so. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't remember anyone else dismissing Dean's arguments.

I think we are having some crossed wires. I've only been talking about Metamorphosis wherein the false premise was set up from the beginning. That was detrimental to both Dean and Sam.  In that episode Sam dismissed Dean's argument about using the demon knife,  and his small mindedness. Dean dismissed Sam's argument about the Hand of Ipecac being better because of the slippery slope.  That's all I've been talking about. I'm sorry for not making that more clear.

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Ah, okay got it.

Edited to add: Dammit. Top of the page. Now my comment doesn't make any sense, but I don't want to have to go back to do anything to explain it... Just know that's for you, @catrox14.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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1 minute ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Ah, okay got it.

Edited to add: Dammit. Top of the page. Now my comment doesn't make any sense, but I don't want to have to go back to do anything to explain it... Just know that's for you, @catrox14.

No problem! I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear. My whole point was going back to spoilers and how I don't want to see season 13 start out with another stupid false premise to drive a plot line.

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2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No problem! I'm sorry that I wasn't more clear. My whole point was going back to spoilers and how I don't want to see season 13 start out with another stupid false premise to drive a plot line.

I agree, especially if the false premise is only there to put the brothers at odds with each other. And "Metamorphosis" was bad enough in that regard, but Sam's nonsensical "oh, yeah sign me up" last season at the end of "The Raid" was even worse. When Aeryn13 and I both agree that something doesn't make sense... then it really, really doesn't make sense. Heh.

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20 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I agree, especially if the false premise is only there to put the brothers at odds with each other. And "Metamorphosis" was bad enough in that regard, but Sam's nonsensical "oh, yeah sign me up" last season at the end of "The Raid" was even worse. When Aeryn13 and I both agree that something doesn't make sense... then it really, really doesn't make sense. Heh.

I really think they must have been thinking of going in a different direction with Sam at the end of the Raid. the way Jared played seemed like he was going to manipulate Dean in obvious ways to get him to join up. And then it was never really followed up on to explain why Sam had that attitude. And then he didn't really go hard in an getting Dean to join or being super devious about it just well, going behind Dean's back.  It was so weird!

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22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I don't remember Dean's argument being dismissed by anyone other than Sam who had addiction reasons for doing so. Unless I'm forgetting something, I don't remember anyone else dismissing Dean's arguments. Castiel agreed with them - since Castiel was one of the ones to give the argument against it. Bobby questioned it due to his own "maybe we should use Sam as a bomb" argument, but he didn't dismiss Dean's concerns either and ultimately went along with Dean's call to lock Sam up. I don't remember anyone in show calling Dean too stubborn to see that Sam was doing good - except maybe Sam or Ruby, and both of their opinions are suspect, so I'm not sure what you are referring to here.

I think it was mostly Bobby, who did question whether they were doing the right thing (both in locking Sam up and not using his powers)...which was not so much "use him as a bomb" (which implies self-destruction) as "using the weapon we have," which gives him the benefit of the doubt--as in, maybe he can do it without going darkside.   But I don't think he actually dismissed Dean's arguments as him being stubborn or unwilling to see another side.  

22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

you could very well be correct. I dislike the second half of season 9, and so admit to not having seen it all that much, so I might be missing something that was in Jared's performance that didn't come across in the script. However what I mean by passive was that Sam went along with Dean to find the First Blade to begin with rather than ask if it was actually a good idea or not. Yes, Dean already did have the mark, but he didn't have the blade yet, and in terms of potential badness, in my opinion, that could have been questioned a bit more (example below). And unsurprisingly yes, more bad did happen when the blade was put into Dean's hand, but - and I could be remembering wrongly - I don't remember anyone really questioning that before Dean actually got ahold of the blade. But again, I could be wrong, because I really haven't seen season 9 all that much.

I actually haven't rewatched s.9 much myself, so I may be misremembering or misinterpreting too.  But I think they both understood and accepted that they had to kill Abaddon, and that the only way to do it was the Blade.  So I think they both accepted that whatever happened, it was their only shot (and, as Dean said many times before, "whatever bad consequences happen, we'll deal with them later.")  

Once thing I always wondered at was, with all their guilt complexes and 'mea-culpas' over things that were out of their control, why they never felt guilty about *bringing Abaddon back to life* after they'd already chopped off her head.  After all, they were planning on cutting her into little pieces and burying them all in cement, which would have finished things once and for all (and negated the need for the Mark in the first place), but instead, not only did they keep her in their trunk for way too long, but when they needed a demon to practice curing, *she's* the one they used?  Sheesh.  

22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Sam did say "you were right." Sam clarified with "Finding Abaddon," but it was more than that, because using the blade would have to be a part of that. I agree that it was Sam admitting to having to do something distasteful, but I don't know... maybe Sam could've said "I don't like it, and I'm worried what it will do to you, Dean, but..." and then say "you're right" and the rest. That's not really complaining after the fact, in my opinion, but expressing legitimate concerns rather than just saying "you're right" and leaving it at that.

I actually went back to the transcripts for that, and it was very specific:  Sam was worrying about Dean obsessing over finding Abaddon, to the exclusion of everything else (including eating and sleeping).  It isn't till he comes back from his hunt that he says:

SAM: You were right.

DEAN: About what?

SAM: Finding Abaddon ASAP. She's mining souls.

DEAN [very concerned]: Why?

SAM: To create an army.

So to me, what he was saying was that he agreed with the urgency in finding Abaddon, not anything about the mark or the blade.  He was acknowledging the threat that Abaddon posed, and that they had to do whatever they could to stop her as soon as possible.  

22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And Dean did not admit that Sam was right about killing Lilith

Actually, he did.  When Sam pointed out that killing Lilith was what started the apocalypse, Dean said something like, "and who would have thought killing Lilith was a bad thing?" which sounds to me like he thought it should have been a good thing.  JMO.

22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

For me, the things Sam should/could have been legitimately angry about were... maybe whitewashed is the word(?) or Sam was turned into a wimp about, in my opinion. Gadreel was turned into a misunderstood, redeemed hero who Sam declared didn't mean him any real harm and was a "real friend," so by extension how bad could it have been that Dean helped him take over Sam's body? Maybe it's just me who finds that seemingly "passive" of Sam - especially since he was so angry with Dean previously about it, but now all of a sudden Sam's all cool with Gadreel and he's not such a bad guy. Wait what? ...when did that happen? When did Sam change his opinion on that and become all "ehn, sure this being killed Kevin and who knows who else using my body, invaded my private thoughts and used them against me and the people close to me, wiped my memories and made me think I was going crazy, and then trapped me in my own mind, but I guess he's not really a bad guy after all."

I don't think Sam was "turned into a wimp" about Gadreel.  TBH, that whole "your *real* friends, like Cas and Gadreel" almost made me throw something at the TV.  But Gadreel wasn't suddenly turned into a misunderstood hero--they did have a lot leading up to it, showing how he felt like a scapegoat, obviously was very naive (having spent all time since Adam and Eve locked away in prison), and wanted nothing but redemption; and he was led astray by Metatron.  I think he did really intend to heal Sam, and it was only later that he decided he was the best hiding place. But he'd saved Sam (several times), Cas and Charlie, and hadn't really done anything bad until killing Kevin--at Metatron's insistence.  And then they did show his growing suspicion and distrust of Metatron and distaste for what he was doing in his name.   But Sam had no reason to trust him or even see him as anything other than evil, until Cas questioned him: 

CASTIEL: I wanted to ask you about Gadreel, the time he possessed you.

...

SAM: He didn't possess me completely -- more like we, uh... shared housing. I was still me.

CASTIEL: Did you ever sense a presence?

SAM: I don't really know what I felt. I mean, maybe that I wasn't completely alone.

CASTIEL: Did you ever feel threatened?

SAM: No. More that he... wasn't at rest, l-like he had unfinished business. Now that we know more about him, I-I'd say he felt misunderstood.

CASTIEL: But not -- not a danger, not hostile.

SAM: No. I was wrong, obviously. He killed Kevin.

So Sam was still (rightfully) feeling angry, and betrayed, and unwilling to forgive.  But Cas had given him food for thought, and if he had later agreed to work with Gadreel (just as they worked with Crowley and Meg and even Lucifer when it was absolutely necessary) I could have accepted that.  It was the "real friends" line that made me gag.  

 

22 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And to add insult to injury, yes, Sam did get Dean to drop the blade, and save a couple of souls, but that's pretty much all he did. He had no part in killing Abaddon, he accepted being told by Dean "follow my orders or else," and then spent the final battle knocked unconscious until he could run in to watch Dean die and admit "I lied." I guess that's what I mean by "passive" - maybe that's the wrong word, but I can't think of one that expresses what I mean. That basically everything that Sam - legitimately in my opinion - expressed concerns about were somehow lessened or Sam was made to change his mind on. Sam basically didn't stick to any of his convictions by the end of the season and little he did made much difference in the mytharc. Maybe passive isn't the right word to express that, but I'm not sure what word would be better.

See, I don't see any of that as being Sam's fault/being passive or wishy-washy; rather, I see it as a product of *Dean's* overwhelming Mark/power (just like Sam's demon-blood-power took over and controlled the end of season 4.)  Dean was getting progressively more and more under the control of the Mark/Blade, just like Sam was the demon blood, and both did whatever they felt necessary without consideration of the other--Sam lied to Dean and went off with Ruby to practice killing demons, Dean lied to Sam and went to kill Abaddon.  Sam beat Dean to a pulp and took off to kill Lilith, Dean knocked Sam out and took off to kill Metatron.  It doesn't mean that either was necessarily weak, just that the other one, under the supernatural influence, was stronger.  

Edited by ahrtee · Reason: fixing typos even a day late...
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3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, he did.  When Sam pointed out that killing Lilith was what started the apocalypse, Dean said something like, "and who would have thought killing Lilith was a bad thing?" which sounds to me like he thought it should have been a good thing.  JMO.

But Dean never thought that Sam drinking blood to do it was a good thing. Ever. Dean always said that they should find another way. Just because Dean might have thought killing Lilith was a potentially a good thing, accepting that Sam drinking blood was a way to do that was never part of it,* or even Sam working with Ruby to do it. Dean didn't accept that either. Dean always kept those convictions. So it was the Dean accepting Sam drinking blood to kill Lilith part that I was disagreeing with, not Sam killing Lilith per se. And Dean until the end didn't think Sam should be drinking blood or be working with Ruby to do it (that's what the fight was about in "When the Levee Breaks"). And that's what I meant about keeping his convictions.

* Which is why he locked Sam in the panic room to detox him rather than let him go fight Lilith that way like Bobby considered. "You've just earned yourself a seat on the bench for the apocalypse." In no way did Dean accept Sam should be drinking demon blood in order to kill Lilith. Dean thought the exact opposite of that and did so until the end. Just because Sam went and did it anyway, and Dean admitted he didn't know killing Lilith wouldn't be bad didn't mean that Dean accepted the way that Sam had done it. And that was reiterated when Castiel said that Sam would have to drink blood again in order to say yes to Lucifer, and Dean still objected - strongly - about the demon blood.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 But Gadreel wasn't suddenly turned into a misunderstood hero--they did have a lot leading up to it,

I actually agree that there was a lot leading up to it, and I don't even necessarily disagree that Gadreel shouldn't have gotten a chance at it... My main complaint was that Sam shouldn't have necessarily been feeling that way. Just because Sam might have agreed that they needed his help, and maybe even reluctantly decided that Gadreel deserved a chance, that didn't mean Sam should be rolling over and calling him a "real friend" - because yeah, that pissed me off too.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

But Sam had no reason to trust him or even see him as anything other than evil, until Cas questioned him: 

Except that for me, that conversation was somewhat of a retcon, because some of it seemed outright false or at least a misrepresentation. Gadreel, if I remember correctly, did threaten Sam in a way, later using his own feelings against him ("Remember I was in your mind, Sam. I know how you feel about your brother" - which what a bastard, and how dare he?!?). And there were definitely times that he possessed Sam completely - Gadreel killed more than Kevin. He at least killed that innocent angel who had a wife and a surrogate family, and Kevin told Dean that "Sam" had been "going out a lot" so who knows what else Gadreel had been doing while subverting Sam. And then Gadreel did trap Sam in his own mind - which I would call a form of complete possession. Gadreel threatened Dean too... saying he would kill Sam if Dean did something he didn't want. I would call that threatening. So to me, some of that conversation with Castiel didn't make much sense - except to change the actual nature of Sam's possession to make it less bad than it actually was and retcon what had happened to Sam. Which to me wasn't fair, because then that made Sam look like a complete jerk for being angry with Dean about it - which they'd already made him look bad with that "The Purge" speech - so, to me, this was like throwing shade onto Sam's earlier descriptions / complaints about his possession (what has Sam supposed to be being a drama queen about it earlier and it really wasn't all that bad?)

And with Sam's "No I was wrong. Obviously. He killed Kevin." it was almost like Sam was blaming himself. which I call a big nope on. And this is coming from someone who even thought that Gadreel probably did deserved a little redemption - BUT - not at the expense of Sam looking like a pushover or a jerk. And in my opinion, that's what the writers did with that conversation and Sam's "real friend" comment. Because...

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

See, I don't see any of that as being Sam's fault/being passive or wishy-washy; rather, I see it as a product of *Dean's* overwhelming Mark/power (just like Sam's demon-blood-power took over and controlled the end of season 4.)  Dean was getting progressively more and more under the control of the Mark/Blade, just like Sam was the demon blood, and both did whatever they felt necessary without consideration of the other--Sam lied to Dean and went off with Ruby to practice killing demons, Dean lied to Sam and went to kill Abaddon.  Sam beat Dean to a pulp and took off to kill Lilith, Dean knocked Sam out and took off to kill Metatron.  It doesn't mean that either was necessarily weak, just that the other one, under the supernatural influence, was stronger.

For me, it wasn't necessarily the "stronger" part. It was that in addition to that, Sam - as I said above - didn't keep his convictions either. He gave up on his objections about the blade, he decided Gadreel was a "friend" (:: gag ::), he didn't keep his conviction about not doing anything to save Dean ("I lied"), and he wasn't really fighting at the end - he was knocked out. In comparison, yes, Dean was overpowered in a way compared to Sam's blood powers, but Dean never stopped fighting. Even when the angels had him, Dean still worked every angle he could until he got Castiel to let him go - he didn't just decide "well maybe the angels have a point here," and give up on his convictions. And Dean never backed down from thinking that Sam using dark powers and working with Ruby was a bad thing even when Bobby tried to convince him otherwise. Dean kept those convictions. And for me that made a huge difference in how the characters looked in those situations. Dean looked like a fighter and someone who knew what was right and kept to it no matter what others threw at him while Sam looked like a bystander who didn't know what he believed or outright lied about what he believed and then got persuaded by everybody else on what to do and believe.

It wasn't just that Sam was knocked out and had no part in the final battle, it was that plus that Sam became a hypocrite - "I lied" - and everything he legitimately had a complaint about - namely the lying and manipulation associated with Gadreel - all got made irrelevant or was whitewashed so that Sam looked badly even though he was arguably the one who got screwed earlier in the season. That's the part that annoys the crap out of me and makes me question what the hell the writers were doing with or to Sam in season 9. And what was the point of making him look so awful while doing it? Wasn't the first half of season 8 enough character abuse? I mean geesh.

Edited by AwesomO4000 · Reason: removed an errant extra "that" stuck somewhere it shouldn't have been.
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4 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But Dean never thought that Sam drinking blood to do it was a good thing. Ever. Dean always said that they should find another way. Just because Dean might have thought killing Lilith was a potentially a good thing, accepting that Sam drinking blood was a way to do that was never part of it,* or even Sam working with Ruby to do it. Dean didn't accept that either. Dean always kept those convictions. So it was the Dean accepting Sam drinking blood to kill Lilith part that I was disagreeing with, not Sam killing Lilith per se. And Dean until the end didn't think Sam should be drinking blood or be working with Ruby to do it (that's what the fight was about in "When the Levee Breaks"). And that's what I meant about keeping his convictions.

* Which is why he locked Sam in the panic room to detox him rather than let him go fight Lilith that way like Bobby considered. "You've just earned yourself a seat on the bench for the apocalypse." In no way did Dean accept Sam should be drinking demon blood in order to kill Lilith. Dean thought the exact opposite of that and did so until the end. Just because Sam went and did it anyway, and Dean admitted he didn't know killing Lilith wouldn't be bad didn't mean that Dean accepted the way that Sam had done it. And that was reiterated when Castiel said that Sam would have to drink blood again in order to say yes to Lucifer, and Dean still objected - strongly - about the demon blood.

I actually agree that there was a lot leading up to it, and I don't even necessarily disagree that Gadreel shouldn't have gotten a chance at it... My main complaint was that Sam shouldn't have necessarily been feeling that way. Just because Sam might have agreed that they needed his help, and maybe even reluctantly decided that Gadreel deserved a chance, that didn't mean Sam should be rolling over and calling him a "real friend" - because yeah, that pissed me off too.

Except that for me, that conversation was somewhat of a retcon, because some of it seemed outright false or at least a misrepresentation. Gadreel, if I remember correctly, did threaten Sam in a way, later using his own feelings against him ("Remember I was in your mind, Sam. I know how you feel about your brother" - which what a bastard, and how dare he?!?). And there were definitely times that he possessed Sam completely - Gadreel killed more than Kevin. He at least killed that innocent angel who had a wife and a surrogate family, and Kevin told Dean that "Sam" had been "going out a lot" so who knows what else Gadreel had been doing while subverting Sam. And then Gadreel did trap Sam in his own mind - which I would call a form of complete possession. Gadreel threatened Dean too... saying he would kill Sam if Dean did something he didn't want. I would call that threatening. So to me, some of that conversation with Castiel didn't make much sense - except to change the actual nature of Sam's possession to make it less bad than it actually was and retcon what had happened to Sam. Which to me wasn't fair, because then that made Sam look like a complete jerk for being angry with Dean about it - which they'd already made him look bad with that "The Purge" speech - so, to me, this was like throwing shade onto Sam's earlier descriptions / complaints about his possession (what has Sam supposed to be being a drama queen about it earlier and it really wasn't all that bad?)

And with Sam's "No I was wrong. Obviously. He killed Kevin." it was almost like Sam was blaming himself. which I call a big nope on. And this is coming from someone who even thought that Gadreel probably did deserved a little redemption - BUT - not at the expense of Sam looking like a pushover or a jerk. And in my opinion, that's what the writers did with that conversation and Sam's "real friend" comment. Because...

For me, it wasn't necessarily the "stronger" part. It was that in addition to that, Sam - as I said above - didn't keep his convictions either. He gave up on his objections about the blade, he decided Gadreel was a "friend" (:: gag ::), he didn't keep his conviction about not doing anything to save Dean ("I lied"), and he wasn't really fighting at the end - he was knocked out. In comparison, yes, Dean was overpowered in a way compared to Sam's blood powers, but Dean never stopped fighting. Even when the angels had him, Dean still worked every angle he could until he got Castiel to let him go - he didn't just decide "well maybe the angels have a point here," and give up on his convictions. And Dean never backed down from thinking that Sam using dark powers and working with Ruby was a bad thing even when Bobby tried to convince him otherwise. Dean kept those convictions. And for me that made a huge difference in how the characters looked in those situations. Dean looked like a fighter and someone who knew what was right and kept to it no matter what others threw at him while Sam looked like a bystander who didn't know what he believed or outright lied about what he believed and then got persuaded by everybody else on what to do and believe.

It wasn't just that Sam was knocked out and had no part in the final battle, it was that plus that Sam became a hypocrite - "I lied" - and everything he legitimately had a complaint about - namely the lying and manipulation associated with Gadreel - all got made irrelevant or was whitewashed so that Sam looked badly even though he was arguably the one who got screwed earlier in the season. That's the part that annoys the crap out of me and makes me question what the hell the writers were doing with or to Sam in season 9. And what was the point of making him look so awful while doing it? Wasn't the first half of season 8 enough character abuse? I mean geesh.

As noted in Fan Fiction:

DEAN : You know ? This has been educational. Seeing the story from your perspective. You keep writing, Shakespeare.

MARIE : Even if it doesn't match how you see it ?

DEAN : I have my version, and you have yours.

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Brought over from the "Spoilers and Speculation" thread. No real spoilers:

5 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I can only imagine that Purgatory 2.0 will be used to prop her even more as a supposed super-badass. Meanwhile I think the character needs to be taken down several pegs. And not in the faux, poor-man`s redemption the end of last Season tried, where they tried to paint her as a victim, have her not apologize for or even realize what her faults truly were, let alone attempt any damage control and be handed insta-forgiveness, right before another instance of "look, what a sacrifical badass".

In my opinion - and I know that this is going to be unpopular - maybe the writers figured that if it worked for Dean in seasons 9 and 10, they'd just do the same with Mary... because for me, this is basically what they did with Dean in those seasons. Now, I'm not saying that Dean "[needed] to be taken down several pegs" necessarily, but I didn't much care for the "poor man's redemption" he got where the writers turned Gadreel into somehow not being as bad as he was*** while redeeming him, and Dean was painted as an undeserving victim of Sam's overblown anger (because why should Sam have been so angry? See, Gadreel wasn't really that bad after all, just misunderstood, and look: Sam did the same thing.) Like Mary, Dean never apologized - not even for the lying - or even admitted that what he did wasn't entirely right, and then in the end, he was even somewhat justified, because Gadreel helped and Sam did the same thing. Add to that that another questionable thing Dean did - potentially another fault - in taking on the mark of Cain recklessly was also given a somewhat "poor man's redemption" in that, yes, Dean became the thing he hated - a demon - but that only lasted for a little while, and he also got to use the mark for good - killing Abbadon - and then got to be a "sacrificial badass" - twice. Once while fighting Metatron and holding him off while Castiel found the tablet to stop him, and a second time when he was going to sacrifice himself via Death before Sam came along and messed that up. And most of the time while Dean had the mark, he was a badass, and any "bad" that came from the mark - namely Amara - wasn't Dean's fault in the end, but was shifted to Sam, again making Dean the "victim," because Sam didn't trust Dean to handle the mark and then snuck around behind Dean's back and did questionable things Dean would hate in order to get the mark off of Dean. And in case we didn't understand that and that Dean wasn't to blame and that his taking on the mark wasn't really a bad thing he needed any change of hubris from, God/Chuck told us so and absolved Dean of any responsibility / wrongdoing.

Sure the details are different, but if the premise is that Mary got a poor man's redemption here and was painted as a victim, I personally don't see that as much different than what happened with Dean in season 9 and 10. And I'm sure that others don't see it as much different than what happened with Sam in season 5.

My point here is not to be a broken record - though for some reason I find I keep going back to this same mess in order to make various different points - but that this isn't particularly new, and the role of goat has been pretty much spread around. Maybe, somewhat like real life, your faults aren't always called out, and sometimes you benefit anyway even if sometimes you should get knocked down a peg instead. Same old, same old.


*** Which was at least a little bit insulting to me as a viewer, because if the writers are going to show me Gadreel doing all sorts of awful things to Sam, if they then turn around and have Sam later declare that Gadreel maybe wasn't trying to harm him, and wasn't really bad just "misunderstood" and was a "real friend," then I'm going to call foul. They can't have it both ways, in my opinion.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Spoilers and Speculation" thread. No real spoilers:

I


*** Which was at least a little bit insulting to me as a viewer, because if the writers are going to show me Gadreel doing all sorts of awful things to Sam, if they then turn around and have Sam later declare that Gadreel maybe wasn't trying to harm him, and wasn't really bad just "misunderstood" and was a "real friend," then I'm going to call foul. They can't have it both ways, in my opinion.

But Gadreel never did harm Sam.  He did awful things while possessing Sam but Sam himself was not harmed.  In fact Gadreel saved Sam's life several times.  What Gadreel did to Kevin and Abner (and the weasel rock star and all the angels after Sam ejected him) was his misguided belief in Metatron (much like Castiels when he murdered the nephilim and was going to murder the cupid) and the mission to redeem himself in heaven.  Gadreel learned the error of his ways and tried to throw in with TFW to right everything he had done on earth.  Honestly I thought his story was the most compelling of that whole season.

Although Dean's death at the end traumatized me for weeks.  It felt like I had lost a real person in my life.  I was devastated!

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17 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

But Gadreel never did harm Sam.  He did awful things while possessing Sam but Sam himself was not harmed.  In fact Gadreel saved Sam's life several times.

While Gadreel didn't do physical harm to Sam, he did a lot of psychological harm to Sam with wiping his memories over and over and over again. Sam was sure he was losing his mind because of it. Plus, I imagine the trauma of the memories of killing Kevin and whoever else not-so-marvy Marv had him murdering.  I think Gadreel did quite a bit of harm to Sam, myself.

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33 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

But Gadreel never did harm Sam.  He did awful things while possessing Sam but Sam himself was not harmed.  In fact Gadreel saved Sam's life several times.  What Gadreel did to Kevin and Abner (and the weasel rock star and all the angels after Sam ejected him) was his misguided belief in Metatron (much like Castiels when he murdered the nephilim and was going to murder the cupid) and the mission to redeem himself in heaven.  Gadreel learned the error of his ways and tried to throw in with TFW to right everything he had done on earth.  Honestly I thought his story was the most compelling of that whole season.

Although Dean's death at the end traumatized me for weeks.  It felt like I had lost a real person in my life.  I was devastated!

Well, I guess it depends on your definition of "harm." As @DittyDotDot pointed out, Gadreel did make Sam think he was crazy and traumatized him by killing Kevin and others while in his body. If I remember correctly, he also messed around in Sam's head, reading his thoughts and feelings without Sam knowing he was doing it and then tried to use those personal thoughts and feelings against Sam. While not physically harming Sam and maybe in the long run doing a bit more good than bad, I wouldn't exactly call those kinds of things entirely "good" intentions - which is what "no harm" somewhat implies to me. Sam appeared to be suffering under Gadreel's possession, and if that wasn't the intent, I think the writers shouldn't have gone there to begin with. My opinion on that only, I understand.

Now as I've said before, I actually agree that Gadrel likely should have gotten a chance for redemption, but to me somewhat whitewashing what he did to Sam, so that Sam instead looked like he was just bitching for no real reason to me shouldn't have been part of it. In other words, I think there should've been more apologies from Gadreel or at least more admissions of wrongdoing there before he earned the "real friend" label from Sam. For me that wasn't earned, and was partially stuck in there so that Dean's lying and protecting Gadreel didn't seem so bad in the end. But that's just my opinion, and I understand if you don't agree.

If not for that, I agree that Gadreel's story was quite compelling, and in some ways, it still was - but that doesn't mean I'm not annoyed by the details I'm complaining about. However the way it was done - with no apologies from Dean or acknowledgement that he might've been somewhat wrong (at least about the lying anyway), with Gadreel being given a somewhat rushed forgiveness from Sam, everything Sam had a right to complain about thrown aside, and Dean being proven right about Gadreel and Sam in the end - it more appeared, to me, that somehow Sam was being thrown under the bus in the process, because either Sam was exaggerating what happened to him earlier in the season or something got whitewashed and Gadreel turned out to be "good" so why should Sam have complained? What a jerk he was not to just "take one for the team." In my opinion, if they were going to go that route: no problem, but then don't have Sam being extra angry and saying awful things to Dean if in the end, the anger was going to turn out not to be justified. Because to me that makes it look like the anger was put there to make Dean somewhat of a victim more than anything else... and in the process made Sam look badly in order to make Dean look less at fault for making a shady decision.

To sum up - it basically looked to me like "So Dean made a shady decision that he knew Sam wouldn't like and then lied about it even when Sam was suffering... ehn, Gadreel turned out not to be so bad after all and actually helped and even Sam called him a friend, so, see: no problem! What the heck was Sam even complaining about anyway?" That sort of pissed me off.

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1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Spoilers and Speculation" thread. No real spoilers:

In my opinion - and I know that this is going to be unpopular - maybe the writers figured that if it worked for Dean in seasons 9 and 10, they'd just do the same with Mary... because for me, this is basically what they did with Dean in those seasons. Now, I'm not saying that Dean "[needed] to be taken down several pegs" necessarily, but I didn't much care for the "poor man's redemption" he got where the writers turned Gadreel into somehow not being as bad as he was*** while redeeming him, and Dean was painted as an undeserving victim of Sam's overblown anger (because why should Sam have been so angry? See, Gadreel wasn't really that bad after all, just misunderstood, and look: Sam did the same thing.) Like Mary, Dean never apologized - not even for the lying - or even admitted that what he did wasn't entirely right, and then in the end, he was even somewhat justified, because Gadreel helped and Sam did the same thing. Add to that that another questionable thing Dean did - potentially another fault - in taking on the mark of Cain recklessly was also given a somewhat "poor man's redemption" in that, yes, Dean became the thing he hated - a demon - but that only lasted for a little while, and he also got to use the mark for good - killing Abbadon - and then got to be a "sacrificial badass" - twice. Once while fighting Metatron and holding him off while Castiel found the tablet to stop him, and a second time when he was going to sacrifice himself via Death before Sam came along and messed that up. And most of the time while Dean had the mark, he was a badass, and any "bad" that came from the mark - namely Amara - wasn't Dean's fault in the end, but was shifted to Sam, again making Dean the "victim," because Sam didn't trust Dean to handle the mark and then snuck around behind Dean's back and did questionable things Dean would hate in order to get the mark off of Dean. And in case we didn't understand that and that Dean wasn't to blame and that his taking on the mark wasn't really a bad thing he needed any change of hubris from, God/Chuck told us so and absolved Dean of any responsibility / wrongdoing.

Sure the details are different, but if the premise is that Mary got a poor man's redemption here and was painted as a victim, I personally don't see that as much different than what happened with Dean in season 9 and 10. And I'm sure that others don't see it as much different than what happened with Sam in season 5.

My point here is not to be a broken record - though for some reason I find I keep going back to this same mess in order to make various different points - but that this isn't particularly new, and the role of goat has been pretty much spread around. Maybe, somewhat like real life, your faults aren't always called out, and sometimes you benefit anyway even if sometimes you should get knocked down a peg instead. Same old, same old.


*** Which was at least a little bit insulting to me as a viewer, because if the writers are going to show me Gadreel doing all sorts of awful things to Sam, if they then turn around and have Sam later declare that Gadreel maybe wasn't trying to harm him, and wasn't really bad just "misunderstood" and was a "real friend," then I'm going to call foul. They can't have it both ways, in my opinion.

I disagree on the fundamental premise of this argument.  What happened with Dean in seasons 9 and 10 was not, in my opinion, a redemption arc for what happened with Gadreel, Sam, and Kevin.  That was the set up for Dean taking the Mark and nothing more, IMO, which is why, I think you didn't find it sufficient as a redemption arc (It wasn't one).  The Mark wasn't taken so he could kill Gadreel (a way to make up for what'd happened - the way Sam made up for releasing Lucifer by jumping in the cage).  He took the Mark because he felt less than worthless and saw himself as a means to an end when it came to killing Abaddon.  The redemption arc he got was for taking the Mark in the first place, the things he did as a demon, etc., and it didn't culminate until S11E23 (IMO).  

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2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "Spoilers and Speculation" thread. No real spoilers:

In my opinion - and I know that this is going to be unpopular - maybe the writers figured that if it worked for Dean in seasons 9 and 10, they'd just do the same with Mary... because for me, this is basically what they did with Dean in those seasons. Now, I'm not saying that Dean "[needed] to be taken down several pegs" necessarily, but I didn't much care for the "poor man's redemption" he got where the writers turned Gadreel into somehow not being as bad as he was*** while redeeming him, and Dean was painted as an undeserving victim of Sam's overblown anger (because why should Sam have been so angry? See, Gadreel wasn't really that bad after all, just misunderstood, and look: Sam did the same thing.) Like Mary, Dean never apologized - not even for the lying - or even admitted that what he did wasn't entirely right, and then in the end, he was even somewhat justified, because Gadreel helped and Sam did the same thing. Add to that that another questionable thing Dean did - potentially another fault - in taking on the mark of Cain recklessly was also given a somewhat "poor man's redemption" in that, yes, Dean became the thing he hated - a demon - but that only lasted for a little while, and he also got to use the mark for good - killing Abbadon - and then got to be a "sacrificial badass" - twice. Once while fighting Metatron and holding him off while Castiel found the tablet to stop him, and a second time when he was going to sacrifice himself via Death before Sam came along and messed that up. And most of the time while Dean had the mark, he was a badass, and any "bad" that came from the mark - namely Amara - wasn't Dean's fault in the end, but was shifted to Sam, again making Dean the "victim," because Sam didn't trust Dean to handle the mark and then snuck around behind Dean's back and did questionable things Dean would hate in order to get the mark off of Dean. And in case we didn't understand that and that Dean wasn't to blame and that his taking on the mark wasn't really a bad thing he needed any change of hubris from, God/Chuck told us so and absolved Dean of any responsibility / wrongdoing.

Sure the details are different, but if the premise is that Mary got a poor man's redemption here and was painted as a victim, I personally don't see that as much different than what happened with Dean in season 9 and 10. And I'm sure that others don't see it as much different than what happened with Sam in season 5.

My point here is not to be a broken record - though for some reason I find I keep going back to this same mess in order to make various different points - but that this isn't particularly new, and the role of goat has been pretty much spread around. Maybe, somewhat like real life, your faults aren't always called out, and sometimes you benefit anyway even if sometimes you should get knocked down a peg instead. Same old, same old.


*** Which was at least a little bit insulting to me as a viewer, because if the writers are going to show me Gadreel doing all sorts of awful things to Sam, if they then turn around and have Sam later declare that Gadreel maybe wasn't trying to harm him, and wasn't really bad just "misunderstood" and was a "real friend," then I'm going to call foul. They can't have it both ways, in my opinion.

I'm not going to argue the Dean vs Sam portion of this, but I don't really see how any of that absolves Mary, or makes her 'poor man's redemption' okay? Just because it's been done, or is perceived to have been done with Dean and/or Sam? Honestly not seeing the leap to Bitch/Jerk here.

 

Basically, Mary's whole married life was a lie and when she came back, she doubled down on it and she didn't just leave her sons behind to 'find herself', she threw in with the people who tortured and tried to kill them. Then lied continually, allowed herself to be brainwashed, tried to kill them herself, did kill other hunters, and then it's all okay because she's willing to sacrifice herself (from a life she didn't even want)? Uhh, no. Not the same thing at all.

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9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was under the impression this thread was to discuss any character who was screwed over by the writers?

I think this is just Sam/Dean.  It was broken off from the UO/bitterness thread because there was just so much of it that it was taking over the thread.  I could be wrong.  You can check with the mods.

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5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Honestly not seeing the leap to Bitch/Jerk here.

I brought it to Bitch/Jerk, because I was going to be discussing what I perceived as writers screwing a character over - in this case Sam - in order to help the redemption arc of another - in this case Gadreel - and elicit sympathy for and some - if not redemption then maybe - justification for another character - in this case Dean. No one has to agree with me on any of it.

Like Ditty, I thought this was the thread to take our grievances when I think the writers are screwing over Sam and/or Dean... and since I was basically making a "the writers were screwing over Sam in season 9 and 10" argument, I brought it here since in my opinion, this is where that kind of opinion goes.

5 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I disagree on the fundamental premise of this argument.  What happened with Dean in seasons 9 and 10 was not, in my opinion, a redemption arc for what happened with Gadreel, Sam, and Kevin.  That was the set up for Dean taking the Mark and nothing more, IMO, which is why, I think you didn't find it sufficient as a redemption arc (It wasn't one).  The Mark wasn't taken so he could kill Gadreel (a way to make up for what'd happened - the way Sam made up for releasing Lucifer by jumping in the cage).  He took the Mark because he felt less than worthless and saw himself as a means to an end when it came to killing Abaddon.  The redemption arc he got was for taking the Mark in the first place, the things he did as a demon, etc., and it didn't culminate until S11E23 (IMO).

You're right that it did somewhat conclude in season 11, because that was when Dean stopped the world from ending with Amara, but in my opinion much of the blame was actually shifted to Sam at the end of season 10 which is why I said season 9 and 10. But technically you are right about season 11. Part of Dean's redemption with the mark of Cain came when he killed Abaddon and then had a sacrificing moment when he literally sacrificed himself so that Castiel could have time to find the tablet ad stop Metatron. But yes the rest finished in season 11. You're right. That still doesn't change for me that part of that redemption involved the plot arc transferring the blame for the bad that happened with the mark - Amarra -  mainly over to Sam.

I also didn't mean to make it sound like I was combining the mark of Cain arc with the Gadreel one. I wasn't trying to. That is why I mentioned them separately and prefaced it with "And another questionable thing..."  For me, the Gadreel arc was different. And for me that is the one that was more similar with Mary's. (Which is why I mentioned it first.)

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Basically, Mary's whole married life was a lie and when she came back, she doubled down on it and she didn't just leave her sons behind to 'find herself', she threw in with the people who tortured and tried to kill them. Then lied continually, allowed herself to be brainwashed, tried to kill them herself, did kill other hunters, and then it's all okay because she's willing to sacrifice herself (from a life she didn't even want)? Uhh, no. Not the same thing at all.

And you have every right to see them as not the same thing at all, but I do see the similarities. You say "she didn't just leave her sons behind to find herself, she threw in with the people who tortured and tried to kill them." Well, in my opinion, even though he was a bit more reluctant, Dean "threw in" with the being who tortured (at least mentally, in my opinion) and threatened to kill Sam. "Then lied continually" - ditto. "Allowed herself to be brainwashed" - well Dean might not have been brainwashed, but in my opinion, he did allow himself to be duped, because he didn't want to look that gift horse in the mouth. And though Dean didn't try to kill Sam or others himself, he did somewhat look the other way while Gadreel was wiping Sam's memory and killing people, ignoring the warning signs and the actual warnings from Kevin. "...and then it's all okay, because she's willing to sacrifice herself..." This one is maybe less on the nose, but for me it was still a "but then it's all okay" because Gadreel turned out to not be so bad after all - and look he helped save the world, so Dean wasn't so wrong to let him stay in Sam... with an added dose of Well, Sam was just being a complete jerk anyway by being so cruel to Dean by accusing him of only doing things that never affected him rather than being written to bring up the actual things that Dean did which were questionable... so I equate that with the false argument of Dean only wants a mom who bakes cookies thing to garner sympathy for Mary. I actually think those two are quite similar in effect - both garnering sympathy for the one doing the potentially wrong thing rather than the one who was actually wronged... and in the case of Sam and Dean, it was somewhat effective - even I thought Sam was being an asshole, and I prefer Sam... so well done writers? And that's even before the Dean was right about Sam doing the same thing which again in my opinion was part of "redeeming" Dean's choices. Also I compared that neither one really apologized for what they did, but they didn't have to, because their choices were mostly justified / vindicated.

So for me I see a lot of similarities and don't agree that they are not the same thing at all. The main difference is original intent, but the consequences and the rest were fairly similar for me. Your miles obviously vary, but I think there are other ways of looking at it.

Quote

...but I don't really see how any of that absolves Mary, or makes her 'poor man's redemption' okay? Just because it's been done, or is perceived to have been done with Dean and/or Sam?

I didn't think I was absolving Mary. Since I was arguing that I didn't like it when it was done to Sam in season 9 and 10, why would I be defending it being done to Dean in Mary's case? I wasn't trying to - though I will admit that I think what happened with / was done to Sam in season 9 was quite a bit worse in that Dean was given the false argument of wanting a mom who bakes cookies while Sam was - well I already covered that, but yeah for me that was a bit worse in terms of character assassination. But I still didn't like it in either case.

My point was just that it's happened before, and it isn't always fair, but apparently that's the way the show rolls now.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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4 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I was under the impression this thread was to discuss any character who was screwed over by the writers?

 

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think this is just Sam/Dean.  It was broken off from the UO/bitterness thread because there was just so much of it that it was taking over the thread.  I could be wrong.  You can check with the mods.

The subtitle of the thread is "Where we discuss who the writers screwed this week/season/ever."

I always appreciate when these discussions get moved over. I don't like to venture too far into spoilers, but I always feel like I'm missing some serious discussion by staying out of that thread.

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14 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

 

The subtitle of the thread is "Where we discuss who the writers screwed this week/season/ever."

 

Read the first post in the thread, by the mod when it was created.  It was started as *just* Sam/Dean (hence: Bitch/Jerk as separate from just "bitterness") but might have morphed since then.  (Note:  I was one who asked the mods for a separate Sam/Dean thread in the first place because, while I don't mind bitterness in general and actually enjoy hearing other POVs, I felt that the Bitterness thread was becoming almost entirely Sam vs Dean and was getting tired of wading through the same bitterness/complaints I'd heard many many times in order to find the discussions I was interested in.)  

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3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Read the first post in the thread, by the mod when it was created.

The first sentence says:

Quote

This topic is your new home for voicing opinions about TPTB Love/Hate Dean, TPTB Love/Hate Sam.

... so since I knew my post was going to contain a "the writers* 'hate' (i.e. being unfair to, in this case) Sam" component, I brought it here. Otherwise, posts that contain such opinions risk being deleted in other threads.

If I interpreted the above incorrectly, I apologize. But since I tend to take a bit of time to create my posts, I'd rather err on the side of caution than have my posts risk being deleted.

* I consider the writers to be part of TPTB (The Powers That Be), along with the showrunners.

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13 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You're right that it did somewhat conclude in season 11, because that was when Dean stopped the world from ending with Amara, but in my opinion much of the blame was actually shifted to Sam at the end of season 10 which is why I said season 9 and 10. But technically you are right about season 11. Part of Dean's redemption with the mark of Cain came when he killed Abaddon and then had a sacrificing moment when he literally sacrificed himself so that Castiel could have time to find the tablet ad stop Metatron. But yes the rest finished in season 11. You're right. That still doesn't change for me that part of that redemption involved the plot arc transferring the blame for the bad that happened with the mark - Amarra -  mainly over to Sam.

Dean's redemption didn't include killing Abaddon.  It was another step on his spiral down.  Sacrificing himself would have concluded the arc if he'd stayed dead, but he didn't.  It was another step down because of what he became.  Letting Death send him to another planet would have been the end of his redemption arc if Death hadn't thrown in the weird caveat of killing Sam, but Death did, and if Dean had done that, then it wouldn't have been the conclusion of the redemption arc, because to be redeemed, you don't sacrifice a person or people in order to do it.  That's just not how it works, IMO.  If we'd gotten Dean sacrificing himself for the greater good by going with Amara and becoming one with her . . . whatever that meant (It's still unclear to me.  I think it means let her take his soul and become part of her, the way the others did, but it could mean that he would have been elevated to her level somehow and ruled next to her?  It was a bad storyline, IMO that just sort of fizzled out and went nowhere) it would have been a suitable end to the redemption arc, because it would have required sacrifice on his part instead of just talking her down, and it could have continued in season 12 with him being saved from that, but that's not what happened, and we were left with a weak conclusion to make way for the BMoL and Mary (IMO of course).  And all the while, Sam was going through his own redemption arc, which is why he tried so hard to find/cure Dean when Dean was a demon (step down because of what he did to do that) and then tried so hard to find a way to get rid of the MoC (another step down because Amarra was released), and then Sam tried to make up for that by not killing meatsuits/facing Lucifer for the greater good, letting Dean be willing to sacrifice himself, etc. in season 11.

Edited by CluelessDrifter · Reason: grammar and clarity
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1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Dean's redemption didn't include killing Abaddon.  It was another step on his spiral down.  Sacrificing himself would have concluded the arc if he'd stayed dead, but he didn't.  It was another step down because of what he became.  Letting Death send him to another planet would have been the end of his redemption arc if Death hadn't thrown in the weird caveat of killing Sam, but Death did and if Dean had done that, then it wouldn't have been the conclusion of the redemption arc, because to be redeemed, you don't sacrifice a person or people in order to do it.  That's just not how it works, IMO.  If we'd gotten Dean sacrificing himself to go with Amara and become one with her . . . whatever that meant (It's still unclear to me.  I think it means let her take his soul and become part of her, the way the others did, but it could mean that he would have been elevated to her level somehow and ruled next to her?  It was a bad storyline, IMO that just sort of fizzled out and went nowhere) would have been a suitable end to the redemption arc, because it would have required sacrifice on his part instead of just talking her down, and it could have concluded in season 12 with him being saved from that, but that's not what happened, and we were left with a weak conclusion to make way for the BMoL and Mary (IMO of course). 

I'm not sure that killing Abbadon was really a step down... or at least not a huge step down, because killing Abbadon was the right thing to do, and it helped. It did make Dean change, but in the end he didn't give into it entirely - he fought it valiantly - and he was able to delay Metatron. I also disagree that Dean becoming a demon somehow nullified his fighting Metatron. For me, it just introduced another aspect he had to overcome - which in my opinion he did, by being willing to have Death send him away. So for me it was less a "step down" than a step sideways maybe. Dean did sacrifice and die... he just got started on another redemption journey.

And Dean was ready and willing to do let Death kill him, so for me, that's all that was necessary. Just as Dean was completely willing to be blown up to stop Amara. Again, to me that was all that was needed. Just because it didn't actually happen doesn't change the fact that Dean was willing to sacrifice himself to achieve those goals. For me, the redemption happened, because Dean was entirely willing to go through with it, and would have if not for interference from others or other, potentially better opportunities presenting themselves

In my opinion, I disagree that Dean's stopping Amara was a "weak conclusion," because I liked that Dean was entirely willing to sacrifice himself if needed, but at the same time was smart enough and resourceful enough to not just use himself as that "blunt instrument" or be just a "killer" when the opportunity presented itself to actually stop things without violence. It was, in my opinion, great character growth for Dean and was redemption, because it was something that only he could have done. No one else had the necessary clout or connection with Amara, and Dean was willing to step up and he succeeded. In my opinion, it was a very worthy redemption arc.

1 hour ago, CluelessDrifter said:

And all the while, Sam was going through his own redemption arc, which is why he tried so hard to find/cure Dean when Dean was a demon (step down because of what he did to do that) and then tried so hard to find a way to get rid of the MoC (another step down because Amarra was released), and then Sam tried to make up for that by not killing meatsuits/facing Lucifer for the greater good, letting Dean be willing to sacrifice himself, etc. in season 11.

I might be missing something, but I am not seeing much of a redemption arc for Sam here. Mostly all Sam was allowed to do was mess up... and that was pretty much his storyline from season 8 through season 11 (and part of season 12), in my opinion.

The closest Sam got to a redemption arc was his being willing to let Dean kill him in the season 10 finale... but that was pretty much negated when Sam failed to warn anyone about the spell that Rowena was doing which ended up releasing the Darkness. If Sam's sole redemption arc was being willing to let Dean sacrifice himself to clean up the mess that Sam made... well in my opinion that's a much less impressive redemption arc than anything Dean got in any of those 3 season finales (9, 10, and 11).

I guess facing Lucifer was a victory, but considering Sam went off on his own and was wrong - again - and it was part of the reason Lucifer escaped - it sort of watered down the positives there. For me anyway.

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1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I guess facing Lucifer was a victory, but considering Sam went off on his own and was wrong - again - and it was part of the reason Lucifer escaped - it sort of watered down the positives there. For me anyway.

Except, the show never presented Sam as wrong.  He even got a very special episode dedicated to telling the audience how awesome, and brave and strong Sam was for wanting to run into the cage.   Dean was never given more than a straw man's objection, and was made to agree to help Sam.  If Dabb wanted us to see Sam as wrong why was no character ever allowed to point out that Lucifer would never agree to help them.

Dean was even sent off screen for pointless filler.  This is what those Amara scenes ended up being because after Dabb got what he wanted and Lucifer was back, the entire writers room seemed to forget Dean was supposed to have a connection to Amara.   From Amara's POV she really had nothing to do with Dean after that point. 

Then the show made Cas screw up worse so they could sweep the Sam stuff under the rug.  No one ever called Sam out on running off on his own,

According to your post above Dean was ultimately shown to be right because Gadreel turned out to be helpful in the end.  By that logic doesn't that mean the writers meant to show Sam was right to go into the cage since ultimately, Lucifer did help in the end?

IMO, the writing didn't support Dean being a victim in s9 at all.  He tricked Sam into being possessed, constantly lied to him.  When Sam found out he ultimately disowned Dean as a brother.  He got to air his grievances toward Dean in The Purge.  The writers even tweeted the that Sam was coming from a place of honesty, so their intent was that the audience seemed to be that the audience should be to side with Sam.   No one gave Sam a suck it up speech.

As for the "I lied", I don't really consider that Sam taking back what he said.  Because I fully believe that Sam meant every word he said in The Purge, at that time.    When it's words its a lot different then when faced with the actual situation.   Dean wasn't dying at that time.  Dean's death didn't seem imminent.  Due to that circumstance I felt that Sam was being honest with himself.  He was upset that Dean went against his wishes and he was telling Dean he would do the same.  Saying you can let someone go is one thing, actually letting it happen is another. 

All that goes out the window when you have to actually practice what you preach.   Despite how angry Sam was at his brother, he still his brother and Sam was scared he was losing Dean.  Hence, the I lied. 

I don't think Sam was made to take it back.  I think at that moment he chose to forgive him rather than let Dean die thinking Sam hated him. 

IMO, I also think Carver, like so many of his predecessors simply underestimated Jensen's talent and his ability to keep Dean sympathetic when the writing doesn't support the character.  I think so much of what happened with Dean in s9 is a prime example of Jensen finding what wasn't written on the page.   Becuase I found the writing very much sided with Sam. 

I think the writers also under estimated Tahmoh.   He and Jared played Gadreel almost of it they were two entirely different people.  This is a criticism on the writers.  They needed to get Jared and Tahmoh together and discuss how they are going to approach the character to keep him more consistent.  

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7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

The first sentence says:

... so since I knew my post was going to contain a "the writers* 'hate' (i.e. being unfair to, in this case) Sam" component, I brought it here. Otherwise, posts that contain such opinions risk being deleted in other threads.

If I interpreted the above incorrectly, I apologize. But since I tend to take a bit of time to create my posts, I'd rather err on the side of caution than have my posts risk being deleted.

* I consider the writers to be part of TPTB (The Powers That Be), along with the showrunners.

That's how I interpreted the mod's post too. Conversations about the writers' treatment of one brother frequently lead to comparisons between the brothers. This seems like the right place to have those conversations, at least to me.

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8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure that killing Abbadon was really a step down... or at least not a huge step down, because killing Abbadon was the right thing to do, and it helped. It did make Dean change, but in the end he didn't give into it entirely - he fought it valiantly - and he was able to delay Metatron. I also disagree that Dean becoming a demon somehow nullified his fighting Metatron. For me, it just introduced another aspect he had to overcome - which in my opinion he did, by being willing to have Death send him away. So for me it was less a "step down" than a step sideways maybe. Dean did sacrifice and die... he just got started on another redemption journey.

I'm not sure how you can see Dean losing control when killing Abaddon and think that wasn't intended to show us that it was a step down in terms of him spiraling out of control, another step closer to rock bottom.  To create a redemption arc, you have to tear the character down before that character can be built back up, hence the reason why Dean dying and becoming a demon was a final step down to rock bottom rather than a step up of redemption.  

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And Dean was ready and willing to do let Death kill him, so for me, that's all that was necessary. Just as Dean was completely willing to be blown up to stop Amara. Again, to me that was all that was needed. Just because it didn't actually happen doesn't change the fact that Dean was willing to sacrifice himself to achieve those goals. For me, the redemption happened, because Dean was entirely willing to go through with it, and would have if not for interference from others or other, potentially better opportunities presenting themselves

In my opinion, I disagree that Dean's stopping Amara was a "weak conclusion," because I liked that Dean was entirely willing to sacrifice himself if needed, but at the same time was smart enough and resourceful enough to not just use himself as that "blunt instrument" or be just a "killer" when the opportunity presented itself to actually stop things without violence. It was, in my opinion, great character growth for Dean and was redemption, because it was something that only he could have done. No one else had the necessary clout or connection with Amara, and Dean was willing to step up and he succeeded. In my opinion, it was a very worthy redemption arc.

In story telling terms, having a character intend to do something isn't the same as having them do it.  That's just not good story telling, IMO.  If we were talking real life, that'd be one thing, but this isn't real life, and in a story you have the freedom to make your characters do anything.  On top of that, Dean gave almost the exact same speech to the girl in JMI, so it took some of the power out of the final act to have it be a rehash of something that'd been done earlier.  There's good foreshadowing, and then there's what we got.

 

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I might be missing something, but I am not seeing much of a redemption arc for Sam here. Mostly all Sam was allowed to do was mess up... and that was pretty much his storyline from season 8 through season 11 (and part of season 12), in my opinion.

And again . . . step down, step down, step down, so he could be built back up by being willing to let Dean sacrifice himself in S11E23.  (It's the same arc Dean got in Season 5).

ETA: Sam's was a more personal arc because of what happened while Dean was in Purgatory and what was said in the Purge (whether it was meant or not), so his redemption was an attempt to make up for those things, which really just lead to Amara, and then he was trying to make up for that.  Dean's would have been for more external things that happened when he had the MoC (the problem being that he wasn't actually allowed to go too bad as a demon and in fact saved Lester's soul by killing him without completing the contract; we were told he was getting bad again in season 10 (Angel Heart would be a good example), when I didn't see what the characters were talking about until The Prisoner; and then in season 11, I thought it seemed like he was in a daze or subdued throughout much of that season due to the lackadaisical Darkness/Dean story line, IMO of course). 

Edited by CluelessDrifter
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Sure the details are different, but if the premise is that Mary got a poor man's redemption here and was painted as a victim, I personally don't see that as much different than what happened with Dean in season 9 and 10. And I'm sure that others don't see it as much different than what happened with Sam in season 5.

That would be me. Insofar as I think they botched Sam`s redemption by doing everything wrong for me. When I need a redemption story to zig, this show zags so that in the end it is not the dark arc that is the problem but the aftermath.

With Dean, I would say that wasn`t a redemption story either. I can`t even see that the show/writers attempted one, not even a botched version. Dean`s story IMO - when he gets a story once in a blue moon, that is - suffer from the same problem: rather shallow writing, lack of interest, lack of cohesiveness. Whatever you want to call it. So if you see the Gadreel thing or the Mark of Cain or both as the "dark arc", with one flowing into the other - I don`t because I see the Gadreel half of Season 9 as a Sam arc and Dean`s story only began with First Born - but either way there isn`t enough of a cohesive throughline for me to say anything that happened after was an attempt at redemption. Not in Season 9 or 10 or 11. It was the same "whatthefuckever" the writers usually show the character. Maybe that looks like he "gets away with things" to some but for me it is a constant source of irritation and frustration.

However, since the discussion originated on my comments about the botched redemption for Mary, I see that as different than either Dean or Sam. With Mary, we saw little of the actual character in the show before Season 12. The Pilot teaser, the scene in Home (I guess?) and the flashbacks. With the latter, I can still differentiate in my mind because of the different actress.

That leaves us with two scenes and I had problems with the short blip in Home already. But for all intents and purposes I consider Season 12 the first real introduction of the character into the show. The first time we got to know her. A botched redemption is one thing if you still have a couple previous years or at least different years with a character to fall back on. Maybe even that won`t be enough but at least it is something. 

With Mary, this is the first time I truly saw her and I thought it was horrible all the way through. Both the "dark" part, if you wanna call it that, and especially the pay-off that wasn`t worth it. The landing they didn`t stick. And it retconned basically what I found or thought I found likeable about the character or maybe the idea of the character. That she seemed like a warm and loving person at least. Well, that is gone now. Completely. So, what do I have to fall back on with Mary?

A poor redemption story on its own is damning enough for me but if that is the first real exposure I have of a character, then it is game over. So, to me, it doesn`t help if the writers used the same bad writing tropes before, it damns the Mary-character more in this case because well, it is ALL there is now for me. If I close my eyes, I can still enjoy the flashbacks of her because I can pretend it is a different character on account of a different actress. But we have the Mary we have now and for that version, I literally have nothing. 

And it`s not even just about Dean, she was about an equally shitty person to Sam. It`s just that in their quest to have him apply for a zen version of sainthood, the writers usually portray him as okay with everything whereas Dean airing grievances was "mean" and doing feelings wrong and he needed to be told so multiple times and even apologize to her - curses. So, yes, it affected his character more negatively which I hated. Mary herself, though, was an equal opportunity cold fish to her children.  

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4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Except, the show never presented Sam as wrong. 

In your opinion. In my opinion, the show showed Sam as wrong as soon as it was revealed that the visions were coming from Lucifer all along - something I predicted  way back in episode 1 or 2 (whichever episode it was when Sam had his first vision). If you go to that episode thread, you'll see me say that it's more likely that the vision came from Lucifer... because I knew they weren't going to let Sam be right about something like that. And because of Sam's ill-advised visit to the cage - because he didn't listen to Dean - it set up the situation where Lucifer could escape. Had Sam listened to Dean - who was right that the visions weren't from God - Lucifer wouldn't have gotten out, because Dean and Castiel wouldn't have had to come bail his ass out.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean was even sent off screen for pointless filler. 

In my opinion, it made sure that Dean would have no part in Sam's bad decision to go to the cage anyway. It put all of the blame for that bad decision on Sam.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Then the show made Cas screw up worse so they could sweep the Sam stuff under the rug.  No one ever called Sam out on running off on his own,

This might be a little bit true. The narrative did say it wasn't Cas' fault though if I remember correctly. I wouldn't say they exactly swept the Sam stuff under the rug though... they set it up too carefully for him to be oh so wrong for that, in my opinion, having Sam repeat multiple times that he thought it was God with Dean saying no, it wasn't.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

According to your post above Dean was ultimately shown to be right because Gadreel turned out to be helpful in the end.  By that logic doesn't that mean the writers meant to show Sam was right to go into the cage since ultimately, Lucifer did help in the end?

Except that Lucifer didn't really help - at least not as directly or straightforwardly as Gadreel did... and then he became/remained one of the villains in season 12. Definitely not a good guy, nor trying to be. No good intentions from Lucifer from the beginning. Gadreel screwed up, and did some bad things, but he was also shown to be trying to get redemption and was lead astray. Much different, in my opinion, from Lucifer's evil motivations from the very beginning until the very end.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, the writing didn't support Dean being a victim in s9 at all.  He tricked Sam into being possessed, constantly lied to him.  When Sam found out he ultimately disowned Dean as a brother.  He got to air his grievances toward Dean in The Purge.  The writers even tweeted the that Sam was coming from a place of honesty, so their intent was that the audience seemed to be that the audience should be to side with Sam.   No one gave Sam a suck it up speech.

Good thing I don't pay attention to what the writers say, because how is that better? Implying that Sam really does mean those things about Dean when we know they aren't true and are just cruel, in my opinion, is worse. And for me, Sam didn't get to really air his grievance in "The Purge." Where was all the actual stuff Sam should have been angry about? Like Dean's lying to him for months while Gadreel used him and made him feel like he was going crazy? Not even a mention. Nope, Sam's grievances were all ones that either we, the audience, knew weren't true or were over-exaggerated or were grievances that the writers likely knew that Sam was going to reneg on in the end anyway. So basically grievances that were going to make Dean be right in the end and Sam look like a hypocrite. And we focused on Dean's devastated face with sad music playing rather than follow Sam - just like the end of the very next episode, "Captives" where Kevin gave the writers' view that Sam and Dean should just get over it and basically be brothers again... but Sam is shown to be being stubborn and callous and stomping away, while the scene again sympathetically focuses on a Dean who wants to make amends. For me, in this point in the narrative, the writers start shifting things towards Sam was just an oversensitive meanie who would eventually learn that hey, Gadreel wasn't trying to actually hurt him - even calling him a "real friend" - and that Dean's decision to do what he did was understandable, because actually faced with it, Sam would do the same thing.

And Sam didn't get a suck it up speech, no... he got a "suck it up" episode with regards to the mark of Cain... and gave himself a "suck it up" speech with regards to Gadreel via the conversation with Castiel where Sam decided / learned how he'd misjudged Gadreel after all. Well,  maybe it was sort of a suck it up speech via Castiel, because Sam took it to heart and got on board with Gadreel, and learned that maybe he was judging him too harshly. So pretty close to a "suck it up" speech, in my opinion. A "well maybe you misjudged and should be more undertsanding" speech.

4 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

As for the "I lied", I don't really consider that Sam taking back what he said.  Because I fully believe that Sam meant every word he said in The Purge, at that time.    When it's words its a lot different then when faced with the actual situation.   Dean wasn't dying at that time.  Dean's death didn't seem imminent.  Due to that circumstance I felt that Sam was being honest with himself.  He was upset that Dean went against his wishes and he was telling Dean he would do the same.  Saying you can let someone go is one thing, actually letting it happen is another. 

And how does that not make Sam look like a hypocrite or not sympathize with Dean's choices? It actually does both, in my opinion... in addition to nullifying most of Sam's relevant grievances from "The Purge" by showing Dean was right, it shows that Sam under the same circumstances would also cave, so what the hell was Sam even mad at Dean for when he would do the same? Mean Sam was mad at poor Dean for doing something he himself would do, too, once Sam "saw the light."

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

IMO, I also think Carver, like so many of his predecessors simply underestimated Jensen's talent and his ability to keep Dean sympathetic when the writing doesn't support the character.  I think so much of what happened with Dean in s9 is a prime example of Jensen finding what wasn't written on the page.   Becuase I found the writing very much sided with Sam. 

Whereas I didn't at all, not after mid season. In my opinion, if it had, it wouldn't have made Sam a hypocrite, proved him wrong, made him see the light about how "misunderstood" Gadreel was, and swept the things that Sam should have been angry about under the rug, while emphasizing things that Sam was going to later be proven wrong about. They wouldn't have put the emotional focus on Dean and how hurt he was at Sam's words and inability to forgive him - something that wasn't even like Sam at that point, because Sam generally was fairly forgiving. They wouldn't have redeemed Gadreel and given him a larger part in saving the world than Sam got. I could go on, but I think I've shown my feelings on this enough. Generally when writing is sided with a character, in my opinion, it shows that character's point of view. After mid season, the point of view shifted mainly to Dean, his face and feelings the camera focused on... and it was Dean's views that Sam came to see as understandable and Gadreel in the end shown to be just misunderstood... much like Dean. Even the arguably somewhat Sam episode "Mother's Little Helper" was mainly about Sam learning that Dean was mostly right about going after Abbadon. At no point in the second half of the season were Sam's complaints validated. Gadreel turned out to be "good" and Sam would do the same thing, and in the end maybe even worse. I personally don't see how any of that is siding with Sam. It seems to be more validating Dean's choices and siding with Dean's decisions and showing how Sam was wrong not to understand earlier why Dean made the decisions he did.

5 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Despite how angry Sam was at his brother, he still his brother and Sam was scared he was losing Dean.  Hence, the I lied. 

Yup, that was the "see Sam, now you understand why Dean made the decision he did. See how you misjudged Dean by calling his decision only selfish? And now that you're losing Dean, don't you feel awful for not understanding that and forgiving him sooner?" moment. Not, in my opinion, the writing siding with Sam at all, but more "punishing" him for being angry with and not forgiving Dean sooner. My opinion only on that, but that's what the second half of the season had been building up to for me. Sam's "taking down" by losing Dean and showing him how he should have forgiven Dean sooner, and now it was too late... pretty much the same "lesson" Sam got given when it came to John way back in season 2, and that the writers really didn't need to give him again in my opinion.


Have I mentioned that I hate what they did to Sam in the second half of season 9 lately?

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21 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

This might be a little bit true. The narrative did say it wasn't Cas' fault though if I remember correctly. I wouldn't say they exactly swept the Sam stuff under the rug though... they set it up too carefully for him to be oh so wrong for that, in my opinion, having Sam repeat multiple times that he thought it was God with Dean saying no, it wasn't.

It was Cas's fault for saying "yes" though.  They only had to wait out Rowena's spell or whatever.  He literally said yes as they were about to get out, and I think he was fully aware that they were almost out. So, he didn't say yes to save Sam.   He wouldn't have been there if not for Sam, but it was his stupid conversation with that other angel or Amara that made him think something so that he said yes.  Very fuzzy on the details because I really don't care that much.   Sam may have been an idiot in getting into the cage, but he was still holding out against giving Lucifer a ride out to the real world.

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56 minutes ago, Katy M said:

It was Cas's fault for saying "yes" though.  They only had to wait out Rowena's spell or whatever.  He literally said yes as they were about to get out, and I think he was fully aware that they were almost out. So, he didn't say yes to save Sam.   He wouldn't have been there if not for Sam, but it was his stupid conversation with that other angel or Amara that made him think something so that he said yes.  Very fuzzy on the details because I really don't care that much.   Sam may have been an idiot in getting into the cage, but he was still holding out against giving Lucifer a ride out to the real world.

This could very well be true, because I don't think we know what Castiel knew or not concerning the spell (i.e. whether or not Dean explained it to him)... however, considering what we learned later about Rowena, we might not even be able to say that Sam and Dean would've gotten out, or if they did, that Castiel would have also (being an angel like Lucifer), because dun dun dun - Rowena wanted Lucifer out of the cage. So that kind of throws a monkey wrench into what might've happened and whether or not the spell really would have worked or instead if Lucifer would have gotten out later somehow (i.e. the spell would have backfired accidentally on purpose, just like it did to let Sam get caught in the cage to begin with, and left a crack open or something)... That's pretty much what happens when you trust the double-crossing witch, Sam. Again. Heh. ; )

You are right about Castiel ultimately being the one to say "yes." I'm just not sure that some awful outcome wasn't already in the cards once Sam decided that he was once again going to trust Rowena to do the spell and not to screw him over. Again. Though truthfully, he wasn't alone in that, because Crowley... also got screwed over by Rowena, too. Again. And then they all got screwed over by Lucifer... because that's what Lucifer does... which Sam knew, intimately, so yeah "idiot" is almost an understatement. The only one who wasn't an idiot and knew the whole thing was a shitstorm from the get go was Dean. Well, and arguably Lucifer, but him being a big bag of dicks (TM Gabriel) cancels out his not being an idiot in this case.

And this is coming from someone who actually adored season 11.  It's in my top 5  favorite seasons of the show.

And idiot though he was, you are right that Sam was strong for holding out and not saying "yes." So there is that.


And Hee! on the "Very fuzzy on the details because I really don't care that much." Bravo... and I should adopt that attitude. Thank you.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Whatever you want to call it. So if you see the Gadreel thing or the Mark of Cain or both as the "dark arc", with one flowing into the other - I don`t because I see the Gadreel half of Season 9 as a Sam arc and Dean`s story only began with First Born - but either way there isn`t enough of a cohesive throughline for me to say anything that happened after was an attempt at redemption.

All my opinion here: I might agree with you about the first half of season 9 being about Sam... if there had been actual follow up - with Sam. But I don't think there was really. Almost everything that happened to Sam that was somewhat character-driven - his feeling like he was going crazy, his feeling betrayed by Dean's lying, his being mentally abused by Gadreel - was pretty much dumped in the second half of the season, so that it just looked more like peripheral details. In my opinion, the real story arc carry over from the first part of the season ended up being Gadreel's story. Carver's creation Gadreel was the character who we were supposed to later feel for and see was misunderstood. Gadreel was the one who got to sacrifice for the cause and get redemption. So in my opinion, it was Gadreel's arc, not Sam's, even mostly from the beginning. How Sam felt about being possessed, lied to, etc. was given some consideration at first, but was later turned into window dressing and blustery speeches full of sound and fury that ultimately signified nothing, since everything the writers had Sam bluster about was shown to be the sham it was while everyone else saved the world from Metatron and Sam watched ineffectually and learned a very valuable lesson. So for me, no, the first half of season 9 was not a Sam arc. It was part of a Gadreel arc. Sam just happened to be the vessel - literally - for that arc, playing just about the same role as Dean did as he interacted with Gadreel and we learned about the angel. We also learned Dean's feelings about what happened and what he'd had to do, but it was basically, in my opinion, the Gadreel show more than anything else. Then Dean got his own other arc with the mark of Cain, but Sam still just remained background in and support of Gadreel's and Dean's arcs.

3 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

And it`s not even just about Dean, she was about an equally shitty person to Sam. It`s just that in their quest to have him apply for a zen version of sainthood, the writers usually portray him as okay with everything whereas Dean airing grievances was "mean" and doing feelings wrong and he needed to be told so multiple times and even apologize to her - curses. So, yes, it affected his character more negatively which I hated.

Don't worry, they made up for it by giving Sam the "the BMoL are obviously idiots here, because this 'raid' was a total disaster, and a bunch of people died, but look at all the cool toys! And everyone knows I've always supported exterminating all monsters everywhere, so hell yeah, I'm joining up right now!" story arc. Personally, if I had to choose, I think I'd rather have had Sam supposedly wanting a cookie baking mom rather than looking like a complete idiot (because apparently Carver and the current crop of writers think Sam is an idiot based on his behavior the last few seasons), but I understand that miles vary.

8 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

If Dabb wanted us to see Sam as wrong why was no character ever allowed to point out that Lucifer would never agree to help them.

The conversation at the beginning of "O Brother Where Art Thou" comes close enough. Dean hits all of the major points, including Lucifer being the "biggest monster ever hatched" and how Sam going to see him would be "the last thing you think. Ever." (Which in my opinion is a pretty good definition of not helping) and even "what proof do we have that any of this is actually real?" For me that pretty much covers all the bases of Dean was totally right and Sam was an idiot for wanting to go get intel from Lucifer. I'm not sure how much clearer it could have been, in my opinion. Maybe Dean outright saying "This is a horrible idea?" Well, Dean actually said exactly that in the conversation also. Apparently multiple times.

7 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

And again . . . step down, step down, step down, so he could be built back up by being willing to let Dean sacrifice himself in S11E23.  (It's the same arc Dean got in Season 5).

Except that Dean didn't raise Lucifer like Sam did in season 5, and Dean actually got to do something active and contribute to stopping the apocalypse. Dean killed Zachariah and Dean got Death's ring from Death. He was also there for and with Sam during the fight with Lucifer. And Dean's "step down" in season 5 pretty much involved one questioning moment where he considered saying "yes" to Michael. That was it. Sam's "step downs" included endangering Lester's soul, torturing crossroads demons and releasing the Darkness which resulted in the deaths of 1000s of people. And his role in fixing the mess he created was basically "cheerleader." To me, I wouldn't call that the same arc. I think Sam's character was torn down much lower. And then run over with a bus.

Now I'm saying this as someone who adores season 11. It wasn't season 11 or Dabb's fault that Carver had torn Sam's character down so much. And Carver had pretty much already set up Dean's connection with Amara, so they kind of had to follow through. At least I appreciated season 11's attempts to actually make Sam not a complete jerk like Carver seemed to be fond of doing and that they gave him a few shining moments. Small things. That's all I ask.

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Said it before and I'll say it again. It intrigues me that we can watch the exact same story play out on screen and  have such diametrically opposing interpretations. It's even more fascinating that we argue our 'sides' by pointing out every perceived flaw and mistake in our (clearly) favorite character. Truly fascinating.

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Except that Dean didn't raise Lucifer like Sam did in season 5, and Dean actually got to do something active and contribute to stopping the apocalypse. Dean killed Zachariah and Dean got Death's ring from Death. He was also there for and with Sam during the fight with Lucifer.

I honestly don't know where you're going with this?  I was talking about Dean being willing to let Sam jump in the cage, the same way Sam was willing to let Dean go to confront Amara. I suppose I should have been clearer.

2 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And Dean's "step down" in season 5 pretty much involved one questioning moment where he considered saying "yes" to Michael. That was it. Sam's "step downs" included endangering Lester's soul, torturing crossroads demons and releasing the Darkness which resulted in the deaths of 1000s of people. And his role in fixing the mess he created was basically "cheerleader." To me, I wouldn't call that the same arc. I think Sam's character was torn down much lower. And then run over with a bus.

Sam died in AHBL.  Dean sold his soul to bring him back.  Unintentionally, this lead to the first seal breaking, and Sam broke the last, so Lucifer was released.  Dean, after having sold his soul to save his brother, had to let Sam go for the greater good in Season 5.  

Sam's set up was different.  He went from not looking for Dean in Purgatory to an attempt at redemption with the trials (a failed attempt at showing Dean there was a light at the end of the tunnel, and failed, I think in part, because Sam entered into it thinking he was right about his newfound outlook on life - i.e. He wasn't contrite, and that doesn't make for true redemption even though he did suffer) to backing up his actions while Dean was in Purgatory by saying what he said in The Purge (I know it's usually the other way around -tell and then back up by show -but that's how I saw it).  Then Dean died in Sam's arms, and Sam saw that his outlook was flawed when faced with the reality of it.  He set about trying to make up for his mistakes by summoning Crowley to make a deal, tracking Demon!Dean down, curing him, finding a way to get rid of the MoC (they couldn't just have him sell his soul to save Dean and lead to another Apocalyptic event.  They drew it out over a season).  Letting Dean go to confront Amara after everything that Sam had done to save him was what mirrored what Dean did with Sam in Season 5.  

Edited by CluelessDrifter
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4 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

I honestly don't know where you're going with this?  I was talking about Dean being willing to let Sam jump in the cage, the same way Sam was willing to let Dean go to confront Amara. I suppose I should have been clearer.

No, my fault. I should have been more clear and just said what I was thinking more succinctly. The point I was trying to make was that I thought that in comparison to Dean's arc in season 5, Sam's in season 8 - 11 sucked. I mean first of all why did it take 4 entire seasons of Sam failing, screwing up, and starting an apocalypse to get to that point? And second of all, why did the writers have to tear Sam's character down so damn much before they completed it? I for one, don't think it's necessary to make a character hit rock bottom before lifting him up a little - especially since the writers had already gone there with Sam in season 4 - but I admit that could be just me.

I should've just said that rather than try to explain it.

My apologies.

6 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It's even more fascinating that we argue our 'sides' by pointing out every perceived flaw and mistake in our (clearly) favorite character. Truly fascinating.

Well, sort of. Part of the reason I like Sam is that I relate to his flaws and understand them better. Despite being an oldest sibling, for some reason I don't relate to Dean's flaws as well... and more recently, I find myself getting annoyed with Dean's apparent Teflon. That new development - when Dean started appearing to be right almost all the time and somehow seemingly coming out of what should have been apocalyptic mistakes relatively unscathed and causing few problems - that I started liking him a bit less.***

Sam for me lately has been up and down - I really disliked him in early season 8 and the second half of season 9 especially - but the rest of the time, I sympathize with him more, because he does sometimes make mistakes rather than being someone who just somehow guesses and gets it right almost every time. (Kind of like the character House - who I hate. It's a good thing Dean has more endearing qualities than House, so that I do at least like him.)


*** Because it gets predictable and boring, and did I mention: annoying.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Well, sort of. Part of the reason I like Sam is that I relate to his flaws and understand them better. Despite being an oldest sibling, for some reason I don't relate to Dean's flaws as well... and more recently, I find myself getting annoyed with Dean's apparent Teflon. That new development - when Dean started appearing to be right almost all the time and somehow seemingly coming out of what should have been apocalyptic mistakes relatively unscathed and causing few problems - that I started liking him a bit less.***

I don't like Dean less because of this, but it does get frustrating.

What is interesting to me is that on a small-scale level, Dean isn't right all the time at all, and in fact often gets his character regressed so that he can learn a Very Special Lesson about giving Mom space, or not automatically killing all monsters, or not being too impulsive/horny/etc. Even on a scene to scene level, he'll sometimes be stuck with a comic relief moment, as of late, in a cheap joke that isn't really true to his character at this point, if it ever was.

But I agree that on the big-picture issues, overall Dean winds up being right to an almost comical extent, and his actions don't have close to the consequences that comparable decision by Sam and Cas do. I think the most egregious example here is probably his killing of Death. By any sane calculus, that should have had catastrophic results. Instead, as far as we can tell, Billie seamlessly steps into Death's role. She is rightfully pissed that Dean killed her boss, but there are no cosmic consequences.

But in that very same episode, Sam, with an assist from Cas, winds up breaking the world with his similarly stupid decision to use a spell from the book of the damned. And I suspect next season, Cas is going to reap (pun intended) the consequences of killing Billie, which really makes no sense given the non-event that was killing Death.

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