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“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

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24 minutes ago, Reganne said:

This is why I wished they would have spent a little more time on Sam's point of view in season 4.  I will say though... I think Sam took his sweet time going after Lilith because he wanted to make sure he was strong enough to finish her.  He had to utilize his powers and learn how to use them.

I thought he took his time because Ruby kept telling him he wasn't ready.

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3 hours ago, Diane said:

I thought he took his time because Ruby kept telling him he wasn't ready.

Which was again bad writing because didn't season 3 Ruby tell him that he was ready and he just had to listen to her? I  think that I am remembering it correctly..

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5 minutes ago, Diane said:

I thought he took his time because Ruby kept telling him he wasn't ready.

Could be.  Though that was probably the excuse so he would wait until the first 65 seals are broken.  At the same time though, I think Sam believed this so he wanted to get stronger.  He was struggling at the beginning with simply exorcising demons and was shown to actually be growing stronger and stronger.

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1 hour ago, Airmid said:

Once he figured out he couldn't change what Dean had done, why wasn't he hunting her down instead of getting lost in a bottle? The passage of time in Mystery Spot was three months. When Dean came back from hell Sam was flouncing around with his demonic floozy in a hotel. I just can't see Sam doing that so close to Dean being torn apart or Ruby being so compelling that he would be that involved instead of going into the mindset of 'save Dean'. That was the mindset of season three for him, up to him being willing to turn himself into a monster. What happened to that?

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by Sam not trying to save Dean after Dean died. Sam did try. And the passage of time in "Mystery Spot" was longer than 3 months. Dean was dying every day for over 3 months and then Sam spent 6 months hunting the Trickster down... and those 6 months nearly broke him in my opinion. That's why Sam was willing to turn himself and Dean into a monster to stop it.

By the time Dean was killed for real - first Sam tried to take his place, offering himself up to Lilith instead of Dean, but she refused - Sam was already "primed" from his experience in "Mystery Spot" so in my opinion, he broke much sooner this time around. But still he tried to save Dean fairly quickly by trying to get a crossroads demon to take him instead of Dean, but they wouldn't deal either. We didn't see all that Sam did, but I'm sure there was more. As for hunting down Lilith, if Lilith wouldn't take Sam's soul instead of Dean's to start with in "No Rest For the Wicked" why would she give him Dean's soul back after Dean was dead and in hell where she wanted him? Why wouldn't she just take/kill Sam too somehow?

I agree with others that Sam not only had to go after Lilith. He had to be ready to kill her, and if he couldn't even kill a regular demon with his powers, how was he supposed to kill Lilith? So I assume that's why he started drinking the demon blood... though of course we don't know for sure, because the writers neglected to show us that.

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

I wish they had gone with an idea of Ruby as a partner in crime instead of his lover and dealer in the end, I guess. 

And I think that Sam sleeping with Ruby was more showing exactly how far he had fallen and how little he thought of himself at that point more than anything else.

1 hour ago, Airmid said:

I suppose one could argue that the demon blood was influencing him but we don't even know how long he'd been using it.

We don't know how long Sam had been on the demon blood before Dean showed up, but we knew when he stopped - "Metamorphosis" - and when he started up again - "Chris Angel..." That's about all we know for sure unless I'm forgetting something. Maybe that second time, Ruby got Sam more addicted and/or addicted faster somehow, since Sam seemed to go downhill much more quickly that time.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by Sam not trying to save Dean after Dean died. Sam did try. 

Drunkenly burying a box at a crossroads in a half assed manner isn't up there with trying. Not Sam's fault - that's just what they gave us. 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

And the passage of time in "Mystery Spot" was longer than 3 months. Dean was dying every day for over 3 months and then Sam spent 6 months hunting the Trickster down

You're right, that's my bad, it was six months. 

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

By the time Dean was killed for real - first Sam tried to take his place, offering himself up to Lilith instead of Dean, but she refused - Sam was already "primed" from his experience in "Mystery Spot" so in my opinion, he broke much sooner this time around. But still he tried to save Dean fairly quickly by trying to get a crossroads demon to take him instead of Dean, but they wouldn't deal either. We didn't see all that Sam did, but I'm sure there was more. As for hunting down Lilith, if Lilith wouldn't take Sam's soul instead of Dean's to start with in "No Rest For the Wicked" why would she give him Dean's soul back after Dean was dead and in hell where she wanted him? Why wouldn't she just take/kill Sam too somehow?

I agree with others that Sam not only had to go after Lilith. He had to be ready to kill her, and if he couldn't even kill a regular demon with his powers, how was he supposed to kill Lilith? So I assume that's why he started drinking the demon blood... though of course we don't know for sure, because the writers neglected to show us that.

I had this nice response all typed up to this and then the internet ate it. :( 

So short hand version because I'm lazy.

I think Mystery Spot broke Sam in new and interesting ways but given his personality and upbringing I can't see him breaking in the way that they showed us. Dean being drunk at a crossroads yes because his entire life's mission as given to him by John was 'take care of Sammy' and he had failed that and felt he had little worth.

Sam on the other hand, is much more like John right down to the anger and revenge fetish. Long before Mystery Spot Sam was out at crossroads shooting demons that wouldn't deal with him when he demanded they take him instead. He was trying to save Dean with just about everything and the intense focus he had only got worse as the deadline got closer. The only thing Mystery Spot really made him feel was that Dean couldn't save himself, that it had to be Sam. 

He's the kind of character I can see going after what took his family regardless of consequences after he lost everything. That to him, if he was okay with being a complete abomination against nature, the very thing they hunted, then Lilith running off with his soul would be an acceptable risk because he and his brother would at least be in hell and demonic together. 

That's the problem I have with him 'needing' Ruby. That he was brought down in that way so she could skip in and 'help', that his character would listen to anything out of a demon's mouth at that point in time. She should have been a mean's to an end - i.e. either get the contract and haul Dean back up or extract the price from Lilith's flesh - and not anything more. If later on, they wanted to show how far down the hole he had gone, then have her be his lover. And I mean waaay down the line, like towards the end of season four. 

As for killing Lilith - well he knew of at least two mortal ways to kill demons dead (the knife and the Colt), he and his brother have taken down gods and he's not stupid. 

*shrug* As I said, it's something that bothers me about that whole thing and not something I see a lot of people sharing. I can see Sam as despondent, just that he would show it in entirely different ways. 

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1 hour ago, Airmid said:

He's the kind of character I can see going after what took his family regardless of consequences after he lost everything. That to him, if he was okay with being a complete abomination against nature, the very thing they hunted, then Lilith running off with his soul would be an acceptable risk because he and his brother would at least be in hell and demonic together. 

That's the problem I have with him 'needing' Ruby. That he was brought down in that way so she could skip in and 'help', that his character would listen to anything out of a demon's mouth at that point in time. She should have been a mean's to an end - i.e. either get the contract and haul Dean back up or extract the price from Lilith's flesh - and not anything more. If later on, they wanted to show how far down the hole he had gone, then have her be his lover. And I mean waaay down the line, like towards the end of season four. 

I can see your point about the drinking part versus the revenge part, though they did introduce Sam as a binge drinker a while ago - "Playthings" for example - so it may not have been too far fetched. Besides Sam had done the uber revenge Robo-Sam thing in "Mystery Spot" and he didn't like what he became then either? Likely the writers just didn't want to repeat that and maybe would rather have brought Sam to drunken loser instead? I don't much appreciate season 4 in retrospect, so I guess I can agree with you there that I wish Sam's emotional arc had been better, different, and more explored.

As for the Colt, Sam didn't know where that was anymore (turns out Crowley had it, likely warded), and I'm not sure about the knife. Maybe Ruby later told him the knife wouldn't work? It didn't seem to work on Alastair, so I doubt it would've worked on Lilith... In fact now that I think about it, they wrote Sam as fairly stupid for trying it against Lilith in "Monster At the End..." after he already knew it didn't work on Alastair.

Geesh, I didn't think I could find more to dislike about season 4.

Thank goodness (in my opinion, and for me anyway) for season 5.

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I'm going to reply in here in case things are brought back to bitch vs jerk. 

 

I honestly dont expect the AU storyline to be one that is particularly Sam or Dean centred, nor do I think it is going to be long lasting. IMO, if we go by the pattern of previous seasons, it will be around for three episodes. The mini arc of the first three episodes will focus on rescuing Mary from the AU and the unfortunate consequence of releasing Lucifer once more. Mary's seasonal arc will probably be a rehash of Sam's season seven arc with Mary trying to cope with the torture Lucifer put her through for trapping him in there. 

Edited by Wayward Son

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I believe the storylines for s13 will be

Whatever happens to Lucifer and Mary in the alt world.   I don't think we'll see much of it because of budget reasons but I do think we might get a lot of tell.

Cas will deal with whatever happened to him while dead or he'll be alt world Cas and the boys enemy.

I believe Jack will just be an Amara 2.0 story, complete with some kind of connection to Sam.  Sam will continue to be the planner, lore expert, weapons expert, killer of monsters, comforter of all the guest stars, and the leader of team free will.

Dean will drink, mope about Cas, worry about Mary and resume his role as Donna Reed and fuss over Mary when she gets back.

Edited by ILoveReading
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I'll reply properly tomorrow, but for me the writers intention comes down to one simple question. Which is more likely; Four show runners and numerous different writers all made the mistake and accidentally made Sam look bad, or that the consistent propping of Dean at the expense of Sam and Cas is deliberate. In my opinion it is the latter! I think it is much easier to believe that four show runners and dozens of writers did the same thing purposely than it is to believe dozen of writers and multiple show runners kept making the same mistake and "accidentally" let things play out this way. 

Since I believe roughly 70 % of all TV writers have the exact same writing pitfalls - the characters being named Dean or Sam Winchester doesn`t make it anything special - and have had them for the last 20 years, I don`t think it`s unlikely. It doesn`t even strike me as a statistical improbability. Unfortunate yes but not unlikely.

Of course I don`t think Dean is propped, not even if I squint really, really hard. 

Quote

Whatever happens to Lucifer and Mary in the alt world.   I don't think we'll see much of it because of budget reasons but I do think we might get a lot of tell.

Cas will deal with whatever happened to him while dead or he'll be alt world Cas and the boys enemy.

I believe Jack will just be an Amara 2.0 story, complete with some kind of connection to Sam.  Sam will continue to be the planner, lore expert, weapons expert, killer of monsters, comforter of all the guest stars, and the leader of team free will.

Dean will drink, mope about Cas, worry about Mary and resume his role as Donna Reed and fuss over Mary when she gets back.

Sounds about right. 

Not looking forward to another super-awkward Comic Con where Jensen really has nothing to say about his character and ends up talking about what Sam does. Which is also solely what the producers talk about. At least Jared talking about that makes sense. 

And if Jensen isn`t directing in Season 13, it`s even worse. Because that one Comic Con, he made it through the roundtable interviews solely on account of talking about the directing.

Edited by Aeryn13
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12 hours ago, CluelessDrifter said:

Yeah, I do.  It was completely genuine.

Okie dokie.  You asked for it.  ;-)

Sam is very much like me.  I, too, was considered the "smart" younger sibling, the one who was expected to do so much (my father once suggested I go to the Naval Academy in Annapolis, Maryland and become the first female Navy Admiral *eye roll*), who became a disappointment when I dropped out of college, got married, and had a kid.  I was the one who rebelled against my parents plans for me.

So, yeah, when I started watching SPN, Sam bored me.  I knew that story.  I knew what choices he would make, how he would lash out at John, blah blah blah.  Dean was more a mystery to me.  Plus, he made me laugh.  That's always a good thing in my book.  :-)

Years later, Dean is still my favorite, but Cas is getting closer to taking that spot.  Dean doesn't make me laugh as much as he used to.  Plus, he's straying awfully close to "alpha male moron" in recent seasons.  IMO, of course.

ETA re: flaws

While Dean is my favorite character, I don't pretend his flaws don't exist.  Nor do I excuse them.  Nor do I get angry when the writers use those flaws to forward the story.  It's all part of storytelling and having flawed heroes as the main characters.  I do not believe that Sam or Dean are "Mary Sue"s.  I think the story would suffer immensely if they were.

For context, I "blame" Dean for taking the Mark of Cain.  I don't "blame" the writers because Dean is flawed.  I need Dean to be flawed for him to be a compelling character.  The characters have to make mistakes for decent storytelling.  I would get so bored if Dean did the right thing or made the right decision every time; never got knocked down in a fight; or never got outwitted by a bad guy.  Where's the dramatic tension in a story like that?  Yes, I know that Dean will "win" in the end, but how does he get there?  That's the story I want to see.

Honestly, I don't get the concept of "blaming" the writers when Dean makes a mistake.  I get blaming the writers when the writing is bad, but Dean being human, with human flaws, is not bad writing, IMO.

 

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course I don`t think Dean is propped, not even if I squint really, really hard.

I don't think either character is "propped".  To be propped, one must not be able to stand on one's own.  I would never say that about Sam or Dean's characters.

Edited by Demented Daisy
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8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I can see your point about the drinking part versus the revenge part, though they did introduce Sam as a binge drinker a while ago - "Playthings" for example - so it may not have been too far fetched. Besides Sam had done the uber revenge Robo-Sam thing in "Mystery Spot" and he didn't like what he became then either? Likely the writers just didn't want to repeat that and maybe would rather have brought Sam to drunken loser instead?

Well, you're going to hate me, but I kind of always thought looking back is that they had Sam react that way because it's what Dean did. Dean's epic screaming and snap decisions that set the rest of the whole works in motion is a fan favorite, so they had Sam go stumbling out shedding what little brain cells he had left to go confront a demon plastered.

Season three - what a mess yet tight season it turned out to be all at once. Sam was supposed to save Dean from hell with his powers by the end. Then the writers strike happened. Mystery Spot and Jus in Bello were done and filmed in case the season couldn't finish. Because Sam couldn't be fully fleshed out and a lot of things were left by the wayside they ended up shoving Sam's powers plot to next season and sent Dean down under. There's an interview from that time I wish I could remember the name of that actually has JA admit that he asked if he was being written off the show at that point seeing as the decision was so shocking.

By the time we hit season four a lot of stuff was unraveled from where they had originally been going including Kripke not wanting angels on the show. Sam's trajectory came not about saving Dean but about revenge and rage right out of the gate, which was a poor decision. 

8 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

As for the Colt, Sam didn't know where that was anymore (turns out Crowley had it, likely warded), and I'm not sure about the knife. Maybe Ruby later told him the knife wouldn't work? It didn't seem to work on Alastair, so I doubt it would've worked on Lilith... In fact now that I think about it, they wrote Sam as fairly stupid for trying it against Lilith in "Monster At the End..." after he already knew it didn't work on Alastair.

Geesh, I didn't think I could find more to dislike about season 4.

Not to mention that in the season three finale Lilith tries to kill Sam with shiny demon powers....and can't. Sam's a smart boy (they both are, just differently) so you'd think he'd remember that. Mark it away as a 'hmmm, maybe this is something I should tell someone or act on' but nope.

And keep in mine I tend to favor Dean but season four really made me swing that way hard just because Sam's arc was just so ill-advised with how they did it. Taking him dark was not the problem, making him into the biggest walking douche in the universe was.

6 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

I honestly dont expect the AU storyline to be one that is particularly Sam or Dean centred, nor do I think it is going to be long lasting. IMO, if we go by the pattern of previous seasons, it will be around for three episodes. The mini arc of the first three episodes will focus on rescuing Mary from the AU and the unfortunate consequence of releasing Lucifer once more. Mary's seasonal arc will probably be a rehash of Sam's season seven arc with Mary trying to cope with the torture Lucifer put her through for trapping him in there. 

I really wish they would stop resolving massive cliffhangers in just a handful of episodes. Takes the point out of a cliffhanger when fans can be all "Well, no worries, we'll find out by number three!" 

Sadly, I can see them doing that with Mary. What a waste of a an actress who has brought the character before and the character herself.

2 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Cas will deal with whatever happened to him while dead or he'll be alt world Cas and the boys enemy.

I believe Jack will just be an Amara 2.0 story, complete with some kind of connection to Sam.  Sam will continue to be the planner, lore expert, weapons expert, killer of monsters, comforter of all the guest stars, and the leader of team free will.

Dean will drink, mope about Cas, worry about Mary and resume his role as Donna Reed and fuss over Mary when she gets back.

If this happens I'm going to sit in my corner and create adventures for them all with Sam and Dean actually being brothers, Jack (really? Jack? I just...) going to drop kick heaven into actually behaving and not being evil, and Mary working through her mountains of crap in a healthy away all while monsters are dying and people are getting saved. 

And really, Jack? "I am Jack, the blasphemous son of Lucifer" just doesn't sound imposing. *snorts* Maybe that will entertain me next season alone.

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19 minutes ago, Airmid said:

And really, Jack? "I am Jack, the blasphemous son of Lucifer" just doesn't sound imposing. *snorts* Maybe that will entertain me next season alone.

And now all I can think of is: "Jack Flash sat on a candlestick cause fire is the Devil's only friend."

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25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And now all I can think of is: "Jack Flash sat on a candlestick cause fire is the Devil's only friend."

Hmmm.... basis of Jack's name.

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30 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And now all I can think of is: "Jack Flash sat on a candlestick cause fire is the Devil's only friend."

I thought I was the only one chanting that nursery rhyme! From the first moment I heard the name... . ;)

ETA: Although, I realize you're singing a completely different song, but still... .

Edited by DittyDotDot
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6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Hmmm.... basis of Jack's name.

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I thought I was the only one chanting that nursery rhyme! From the first moment I heard the name... . ;)

ETA: Although, I realize you're singing a completely different song, but still... .

Moving to spoilers, since this ain't Bitch/Jerk. (yay!)

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I personally think Sam is meant to be the lead character of the story. Everything happens to Sam and if something happens to Dean, the story focusses on the effects it has on Sam. Whether the writing manages a good portrayal of the story is entirely another matter but I don't watch for the writing. I watch for the amazing acting prowess of Jensen Ackles, his ability to fully flesh out a character and give him little quirks and nuances that make him a 3 dimensional character. The way he brings us into the world of Dean Winchester and invites us to ride an emotional roller coaster with him. That's why I love his response to Berens about writing  that he cries doing a scene. If the scene leads to Dean crying he is not afraid to go there but he is not going to go there just because the writer thinks it will look cool

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All the apparent behind the scenes drama right now makes me sad.  TPTB getting caught spinning absolute falsehoods to the fans when they kill off characters is disheartening to say the least. With the Js talk of 6 or 8 episode seasons, I wouldn't be surprised if season 13 is 13 episodes.

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On 5/25/2017 at 6:17 PM, catrox14 said:

the mention of how they pepper in the throughline of the season, like a mention of "Did you hear from Mom"

I actually find this clunky writing to be honest.  A rookie could write the scene.

Dean: 'Did you hear from, Mum/Cas/Crowley/Whoever?'

Sam: 'No... But - hey - Bigfoot has been spotted on a Florida beach'  And off they go without a second thought.

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7 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I actually find this clunky writing to be honest.  A rookie could write the scene.

Dean: 'Did you hear from, Mum/Cas/Crowley/Whoever?'

Sam: 'No... But - hey - Bigfoot has been spotted on a Florida beach'  And off they go without a second thought.

I find this lazy writing.  It was especially bad in s11.  It felt like every scene after the opening credits was just copy and pasted.  

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56 minutes ago, Idahoforspn said:

All the apparent behind the scenes drama right now makes me sad.  TPTB getting caught spinning absolute falsehoods to the fans when they kill off characters is disheartening to say the least. With the Js talk of 6 or 8 episode seasons, I wouldn't be surprised if season 13 is 13 episodes.

I'm expecting 13 to be a full season, but I wouldn't be surprised if they do go to shorter seasons after that.  You just never know.  I have no idea what Jensen and Jared are thinking, really.  I know that Jared had said at one time that he wanted to be home once his kids started school, but I think the income is something that you don't easily walk away from.  Plus, I think they genuinely have fun at their jobs, and they realize how lucky they are.  In a perfect world, the writing will improve and they can continue for a few more seasons.  

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3 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

I actually find this clunky writing to be honest.  A rookie could write the scene.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I find this lazy writing.  It was especially bad in s11.  It felt like every scene after the opening credits was just copy and pasted.  

And if they didn't do it, there'd be complaints (and there were already several this past season) like: Why isn't Dean even asking about Cas?  They could at least mention him!

Honestly: Please All, Please None.

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34 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Lordy, this site is a pain in the ass for posting sometimes. Tried unsuccessfully to edit my post three times and crashed my browser each time. Condensed version: scrolled JAs timeline to make sure I wasn't misremembering and nope, not a single episode related tweet. He did post a pic of a bloodied Jared from 12x02, and one of him, Jared and Adam Fergus in the Impala.  This one was interesting though. *g*

https://twitter.com/JensenAckles/status/755560010978123776

(hitting submit and praying it doesn't get eaten again)

(quoting myself and Res from the Cast social media thread for context)

29 minutes ago, Res said:

I'm not sure that would help right now but who knows.

Full disclosure, before Supernatural, I couldn't tell you the name of a single TV writer, with maybe the exception of Aaron Sorkin. I've always been one who is only interested in what's on the screen. My main criteria for judging any entertainment is: Am I entertained? Did it make me feel something? Do I want to feel that again?


This season there was, for me, so much whatthefuckery, with Dean in particular, that it took me out of the moment and sadly, too often the answer to all those questions was a resounding Hell, no.

The worst offender  was Davy Perez and I honestly have no desire to watch any more of his work. 

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

(quoting myself and Res from the Cast social media thread for context)

Full disclosure, before Supernatural, I couldn't tell you the name of a single TV writer, with maybe the exception of Aaron Sorkin. I've always been one who is only interested in what's on the screen. My main criteria for judging any entertainment is: Am I entertained? Did it make me feel something? Do I want to feel that again?


This season there was, for me, so much whatthefuckery, with Dean in particular, that it took me out of the moment and sadly, too often the answer to all those questions was a resounding Hell, no.

The worst offender  was Davy Perez and I honestly have no desire to watch any more of his work. 

Same here unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Full disclosure, before Supernatural, I couldn't tell you the name of a single TV writer, with maybe the exception of Aaron Sorkin. I've always been one who is only interested in what's on the screen. My main criteria for judging any entertainment is: Am I entertained? Did it make me feel something? Do I want to feel that again?

I became more acquainted with writers via Angel, LOST, BSG, and now SPN.

Edited by catrox14

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7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And if they didn't do it, there'd be complaints (and there were already several this past season) like: Why isn't Dean even asking about Cas?  They could at least mention him!

Honestly: Please All, Please None.

The problem for many is that it's not done organically. It's not introduced as a natural part of a normal conversation when they talk about why their powerful friends aren't there for this week's adventure. Instead of working expositional information naturally into the episode it's shoved in a clunky factoid at the start and promptly forgotten. I think if they found a way to work in information on what other main characters are doing throughout the episode as normal conversations and why they aren't there to help in person there would be less complaints from both sides. 

Or if the person in question is missing/not responding, actually having them drop a sentence or two later in the episode to show concern over these people. Spitting out some plot point at the start then skipping off without a care in the world as to the safety/well-being of non-contactable allies who have been with them for years doesn't feel great to viewers who have become invested in all characters. Yes, it's about two brothers but the side characters, if done correctly, still warrant attention and concern from viewers. 

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Full disclosure, before Supernatural, I couldn't tell you the name of a single TV writer, with maybe the exception of Aaron Sorkin. I've always been one who is only interested in what's on the screen. My main criteria for judging any entertainment is: Am I entertained? Did it make me feel something? Do I want to feel that again?

I started looking at credits back in the sixth grade when I took a music appreciation class. There we were taught to look at the different composers. As time went by I did start to look at the other credits, including producer and writer. While I use your same criteria I still look at the credits and sometimes groan inwardly when watching a show and see a name that I know has done episodes in the past I sincerely dislike. Which means I'll probably dislike the one about to come and lower my expectations greatly. Sometimes I do get pleasantly surprised but not often.

5 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The worst offender  was Davy Perez and I honestly have no desire to watch any more of his work. 

In the end, the showrunner is responsible. It's up to Dabb to say yay or nay on what hits the screen. But it's been a problem with SPN for a long time to allow writers to massacre the characters/plot/canon to fit whatever they wanted to write about. What's terrible is that it's not that they are totally canon blind and have no way of knowing. It seems that they just don't care about the universe that has been built up by years of stories and bend it all around till it fits what they want, instead of what the established characters/universe should be. 

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6 minutes ago, Airmid said:

The problem for many is that it's not done organically. It's not introduced as a natural part of a normal conversation when they talk about why their powerful friends aren't there for this week's adventure. Instead of working expositional information naturally into the episode it's shoved in a clunky factoid at the start and promptly forgotten. I think if they found a way to work in information on what other main characters are doing throughout the episode as normal conversations and why they aren't there to help in person there would be less complaints from both sides. 

Or if the person in question is missing/not responding, actually having them drop a sentence or two later in the episode to show concern over these people. Spitting out some plot point at the start then skipping off without a care in the world as to the safety/well-being of non-contactable allies who have been with them for years doesn't feel great to viewers who have become invested in all characters. Yes, it's about two brothers but the side characters, if done correctly, still warrant attention and concern from viewers. 

The writers were so much better at this in the early seasons, like with the search for John in season 1, figuring out Sam's powers and what Azazel wanted in season 2, Dean's deal in season 3, etc.  

8 minutes ago, Airmid said:

In the end, the showrunner is responsible. It's up to Dabb to say yay or nay on what hits the screen. But it's been a problem with SPN for a long time to allow writers to massacre the characters/plot/canon to fit whatever they wanted to write about. What's terrible is that it's not that they are totally canon blind and have no way of knowing. It seems that they just don't care about the universe that has been built up by years of stories and bend it all around till it fits what they want, instead of what the established characters/universe should be. 

I agree.  

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1 hour ago, Airmid said:

The problem for many is that it's not done organically. It's not introduced as a natural part of a normal conversation when they talk about why their powerful friends aren't there for this week's adventure.

So when Sam walks into the kitchen and asks Dean if he's talked to Mom recently, that's not part of a normal conversation?  How do you know?  Have you been present for every single conversation two fictional characters have ever had - including the ones they've apparently had off-screen?  Like I said, I think no matter how it was done, there would be complaints.  What you might consider 'organic' another person would view as a stilted conversation.  

2 hours ago, Airmid said:

Or if the person in question is missing/not responding, actually having them drop a sentence or two later in the episode to show concern over these people.

They actually did this a couple times that I remember this past season, showing Dean trying to reach Cas later in the ep.  

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Yeah I would have to agree that shoving it in at the start of the episode isn't the greatest writing tool! It makes Sam look almost callous in his lack of concern for Mary and Cas half the time and Dean's affections quite shallow. Since the conversation basically amounts to 

 

Dean: "Im worried about Cas or mum man" 

Sam: "Yeah me too, but ooh there's a boogeyman case in texas"

Dean: "I dunno man shouldn't we really be looking for them!" 

Sam: "But it's a boogeyman Dean! Come on we deserve a break it'll be fun!" 

Dean: -grinnng- Yeah, you're right we can worry about them later! Let's go hunt ourselves a boogeyman. 

Edited by Wayward Son
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9 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So when Sam walks into the kitchen and asks Dean if he's talked to Mom recently, that's not part of a normal conversation?  How do you know?  Have you been present for every single conversation two fictional characters have ever had - including the ones they've apparently had off-screen?  Like I said, I think no matter how it was done, there would be complaints.  What you might consider 'organic' another person would view as a stilted conversation.  

That's fine when they actually do that but as Wayward Son pointed out, they then go skipping off and just don't care so then it becomes some little info dump for the sake of an info dump and it just feels like a tell to the audience.

There are always going to be complaints but if they wound in the actions of the other characters involved in their show through conversation throughout the episode (a line drop here and there) it stops being so noticeable. And it's not just this season, it's something that's been going on for a while.

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I think the main problem is the fact that the writers like to come up with plot driven reasons for secondary characters such as Cas and Mary being absent for a prolonged period of time. I assume they do this to heighten tension, to increase the angst and to make viewers invested in their later return. However, the problem with this approach is that the boys then look pretty heartless when they go off on a random MOTW while their friend or mum is in peril.

IMO what the writers need to do is allow Cas and Mary to establish their own base of operations away from the boys. They need somewhere they can go to when the story doesn't require their presence. The reason IMO the inclusion of characters like Bobby, Jo and Ellen worked so well was the fact they had homes to go to. We didn't have to constantly worry about them during their offscreen time as we could assume they were simply at home doing their own thing during the brother only MOTWs.

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They did a better job of incorporating those lines in this season, compared to last year, IMO.  I swear every episode last year began with the same lines.  It actually got to be ridiculous after a while.

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Personally, I don't think it was any better or worse to how they did it back in S1, it's just that back in S1 we hadn't grown weary of the discussion. I mean, they've been having the same discussion for 12 seasons just about different characters. I think it's time they stop worrying about, myself. We the audience knows why the character is off screen and knows Sam and Dean aren't going to ignore cases that crop up just because they're worried about their missing friends.

I agree they don't give very compelling reasons why the character would be off screen, though. But, it's the same problem they had with John in S1 and a big part of why they killed him in S2. Why would John stay away from his boys other than JDM was only contracted for a few episodes? 

Plus, I think it's a problem that we never see what those characters are doing when they're off screen. I always thought it was weird that John didn't seem to have been doing anything except ignoring the boys' phone calls and pleas for help. I also think it's just as weird that Cass doesn't appear to actually have done anything in the time he's away. It's like they were put into stasis for a couple weeks and then come out when it's time to move forward on their storylines. 

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It`s the same problem with the apocalypse du jour taking a break for a convenient span of mytharc episodes. Episodes 1-2: OMG, the world is ending. Episodes 3-5: nah, it can wait. And so on and so forth. I know it`s a tightrope walk to both do procedural and arc but IMO they never learned how to do it. And their pacing has always been awful, from Season 1 to now.   

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Once they got the bunker, I always thought that Kevin (instead of being on Garth's boat) and Castiel (instead of being... wherever he was) should have been holed up in a quiet corner, away from prying eyes, doing research.  Then it would be much (IMO) more natural for Sam/Dean to stroll into the kitchen/living area and say something like, "That guy won't stop until he's found what he's looking for."  Or something else that would indicate that Sam/Dean was just talking to said person off-camera.  I've also thought that, during these world-ending crises, they should move everyone into the bunker, but perpetually off-screen.  Just makes more sense to me that way, instead of Sam and Dean hopping in the car and driving three states over to talk to someone.  *shrug*

But the show hasn't listened to me about that stuff before.  Why start now?  ;-)

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 I don't disagree that the way the keep track of a throughline with Cas or Mary is typically clunky and formulaic, I, for one, appreciate that they are at least mentioned because Cas and Mary are family.I would pissed if they weren't mentioned at all.  In s2, Bobby, Jo and Ellen  didn't have the history with the boys that Cas does now.  Mary is a different kettle of fish because even though they don't know her, and she is a stranger, she is their long deceased recently resurrected mother. Different category of emotional attachment.

As much as I did not like Davy Perez's episodes in general, I give him credit for changing up the "what about Cas/Mary' conversations.  In the Magda episode, he had Dean and Sam having a heated discussion about Mary and her whereabouts, in the bunker and during a walk and talk as they were on their way to the case. Granted I think it was also there for the theme of mothers and  their children, but at least IMO it seemed more organic that despite working a case Mary was not far out of mind at all.

In Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell, Perez, or maybe it was Nina Lopez Corrado who made the directing choice to change it up, but in any case, Sam and Dean were each on the phone,  talking to Mary and Cas, respectively, as they were getting of the car when arriving at the case. It made a lot more sense to me that during a drive of some length they would discuss Mary and Cas. Later Dean and Crowley were  talking about Cas directly and Dean thanked Crowley for saving Cas' life. And again at the end of the episode, Dean was talking to Cas and was worried about him, which showed that Cas was not far out of mind.  I would much prefer that kind of through line handling, than the way it's usually done. But like I said, I'll take the mentions vs not.

ETA: Yes, Cas was In Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell but he wasn't with the boys and he didn't really even have to be talking to Dean at the beginning per se for us to figure out what Cas doing. That was Dean being concerned where Cas was after Cas almost died a couple of weeks before.

Heh, In American Nightmare, we needed a scene wherein Sam, after having made his escape, calls  Cas to find out where the hell Dean went.

Edited by catrox14
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I saw a tweet asking for people to submit questions for spoiler scoop.  I was trying to think of Dean focused question to ask and I realized there really isn't one.  Just like Dabb talking about the Winchesters (plural) will become generals turned out to be false as it was just one Winchester, Dabb talking about how all the characters are in a predicament is also false.

Dean's really the only character who doesn't have a potential story line set up.  Sam is facing off with the nephilm and will probably have some connection with him, Mary is trapped in alt world with Lucifer, Cas will have whatever happened to him when he was dead.

Dean...he'll be sad over Cas and Mary and probably drink, but other than that.... I got nothing.   Just, Dean reduced to wringing his hands over things happening to everyone else.

Edited by ILoveReading
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17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Dean's really the only character who doesn't have a potential story line set up.  Sam is facing off with the nephilm and will probably have some connection with him, Mary is trapped in alt world with Lucifer, Cas will have whatever happened to him when he was dead.

Dean...he'll be sad over Cas and Mary and probably drink, but other than that.... I got nothing.   Just, Dean reduced to wringing his hands over things happening to everyone else.

I think this is a pretty big leap to make. For all we know, they are setting up a plot where Sam has to stay in our verse and babysit Jack and Dean has to get back to altverse and save Mary (and maybe Cas, if it turns out "our" Cas is still alive).

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 Just like Dabb talking about the Winchesters (plural) will become generals turned out to be false as it was just one Winchester, Dabb talking about how all the characters are in a predicament is also false.

Yeah, Dabb talked out of his ass there. Or maybe he simply forgot Dean existed so from his POV he told the truth. 

And I certainly don`t believe in "maybe there is storyline A coming from this". Not after 12 years of this show and especially not after this Season. Dabb showed his colours in Season 11 and he really did in Season 12 as showrunner. Worst Season ever for Dean. Like, by ten thousand miles. And we`re talking about the lowest of the previous lows here, 8.B and 9.A. As well as kinda 11 with the sucky MOTW. 

Edited by Aeryn13
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2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

I think this is a pretty big leap to make. For all we know, they are setting up a plot where Sam has to stay in our verse and babysit Jack and Dean has to get back to altverse and save Mary (and maybe Cas, if it turns out "our" Cas is still alive).

 

I don't see Sam babysitting Jack.  If he does, it won't be passive.  It will be proactive and Sam teaching Jack how to be a better person.  I really see no other way for the story to go other than Amara 2.0, probably ending with a rehash of Alpha and Omega with Sam talking Jack out of destroying the world.

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10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 

I don't see Sam babysitting Jack.  If he does, it won't be passive.  It will be proactive and Sam teaching Jack how to be a better person.  I really see no other way for the story to go other than Amara 2.0, probably ending with a rehash of Alpha and Omega with Sam talking Jack out of destroying the world.

I sincerely hope not, on both of those.

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I don't see Sam babysitting Jack.  If he does, it won't be passive.  It will be proactive and Sam teaching Jack how to be a better person.  I really see no other way for the story to go other than Amara 2.0, probably ending with a rehash of Alpha and Omega with Sam talking Jack out of destroying the world.

I can see that, just done with more flash, more fanfare, more exploration etc. Just to hammer home the point that no matter what Dean can do (if they even leave him something he can do at this point), Sam can do it a hundred times better. It`s the same "your hell will make mine look like Disneyland" thing they`ve been doing forever. 

And then wonder why this extreme vs.-writing creates division.  

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1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

And then wonder why this extreme vs.-writing creates division

There is no worse culprit of Sam vs Dean than the show itself.

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From the SuperNormal thread...

45 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think his career will be just fine. If he`d done this with some big name producer/showrunner, I could see it as a risk but frankly not with the SPN folk.

I'm sure Mark will be fine in the long run. But, while it may be a small little show on the CW with a no-name showrunner, most of Mark's TV credits are with small little genre shows and he's barely worked outside of the show for a few years now. I don't think this is going to help him get another job right now. But maybe he's not wanting another job right now either? 

30 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Mark pointed out several of the issues I had with the writing this season.  There were several characters this season I felt like Dabb had no idea what to do with or wasn't really interested in, but that's probably more on topic in the writers thread.

Except he was also talking about stuff from ages ago when Carver was the showrunner. It's not just Dabb who hasn't known what to do with Crowley--or Cass for that matter--Carver didn't either. I actually think Carver's non-committal choices are worse than just ignoring the character altogether. Carver gave him a blood addiction that went nowhere; a frenemy-ship with Dean that was basically dropped; gave him mommy issues that not only made little sense, but was ignored more than not...Dabb may not have done much with Crowley, but Carver didn't either, IMO.

21 minutes ago, Jakes said:

I disagree with Mark--Rowena ended up working well with and for Crowley's character.

I don't disagree with Mark that Crowley having mommy issues didn't make sense--and I was pretty vocal about it at the time--but I grew to love Rowena despite it not making much sense. I don't think Rowena needed to be Crowley's mother for them to have made an interesting pair though. 

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20 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Except he was also talking about stuff from ages ago when Carver was the showrunner. It's not just Dabb who hasn't known what to do with Crowley--or Cass for that matter--Carver didn't either. I actually think Carver's non-committal choices are worse than just ignoring the character altogether. Carver gave him a blood addiction that went nowhere; a frenemy-ship with Dean that was basically dropped; gave him mommy issues that not only made little sense, but was ignored more than not...Dabb may not have done much with Crowley, but Carver didn't either, IMO.

I was referring to Mark's comment that the writers are lazy.  That and lack of communication seem to be two of the biggest problems. 

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5 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I was referring to Mark's comment that the writers are lazy. 

Right, which is what he said about Crowley having a mother...which was years ago and Carver, not Dabb.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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Just now, DittyDotDot said:

Right, which is what he said about Crowley having a mother...which was Carver, not Dabb.

Mark said the writers were lazy and gave an example.  When I said I agreed with Mark, I meant the general principal of lazy writing, more than the specific example.    I personally was applying that to Dabb. 

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2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Mark said the writers were lazy and gave an example.  When I said I agreed with Mark, I meant the general principal of lazy writing, more than the specific example.    I personally was applying that to Dabb. 

Right, and I was pointing out that his many of his examples wasn't Dabb, but Carver. IMO, this isn't something new to the Dabb-era of the show. The writing problems--laziness and lack of communication--have been happening long before Dabb took over as showrunner. I'd say they were present during the Kripke years but Kripke was better at keeping all the balls in the air than any of the subsequent showrunners so we just didn't notice it as much.

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But if Dabb truly believes that Lucifer is more interesting than Crowley, then that falls directly on him.  I would take Crowley over Lucifer every single day.  Lucifer is one-note.  He's evil, but with no real purpose, and he does nothing but whine constantly.  He's boring.  Crowley at least had some depth as a character.  He could be ruthless and cruel, but was also TFW when it suited him.  And going from one to the other was actually believable, because he basically chose whichever side would get him further ahead.  And Mark's chemistry with his three main co-stars was fantastic.  They didn't need to bring Lucifer back, they could have just amped up Crowley's demonic side.  Once the world was saved, again, it would stand to reason that he'd go back to his old ways.  This should probably go in the bitterness thread, because I am bitter about being stuck with Lucifer now. He ruins the show for me.

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3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

But if Dabb truly believes that Lucifer is more interesting than Crowley, then that falls directly on him.

I don't know that Dabb truly believes Lucifer is more interesting than Crowley, I'd rather they get rid of Lucifer too, but I don't really see Dabb being all that interested in Lucifer as much as is more interested in the spawn and the alternate universe right now. IMO, Dabb's focus has always been on ideas, but he gets distracted by the next idea and fails to follow through on things he gets started. If you look at most of his episodes, they're a jumble of ideas without a solid throughline or follow through.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think Dabb has been a stellar showrunner either, but I don't put everything at Dabb's feet considering the problems aren't new to the show. TBH, I put a lot of it at Singer's feet. He is the one constant over all the years of the show. I think he and Kripke just struck a better balance that no other showrunner has been able to reproduce since. Ironically, I also think what's been holding Kripke back from making another successful show like Supernatural is he needs someone like Singer to balance with as much as Singer needs a Kripke to balance with.

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