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“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

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That Berens script is so bad it would be hilarious, except it’s a pretty good symbol of what exactly went wrong with the show and that makes it very tragic.

I can’t wrap my head around the fact that someone who’s supposedly a professional writer would put things like that into a script. Just imagine being on the SPN production team and reading this script, and wondering how the hell you’re going to transfer those ridiculous things on the screen.

Even worse, imagine being Jensen and reading the script where everyone is badass and cool and fun, but Dean barely gets a mention. What a slap in his face.

And maybe the oddest idea yet, imagine being Jared and reading the script, wondering how to pull off being “half Christ, half cowboy”…

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1 hour ago, hunenka said:

And maybe the oddest idea yet, imagine being Jared and reading the script, wondering how to pull off being “half Christ, half cowboy”…

Well, obviously he didn't.  I can't say if he tried and failed or just decided (like so many here) that it was too stupid to even try.

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1 hour ago, hunenka said:

And maybe the oddest idea yet, imagine being Jared and reading the script, wondering how to pull off being “half Christ, half cowboy”…

Sorry, but all of this reminds me of the English band Half Man Half Biscuit and now I can't unsee Sam as, well, half man, half biscuit :DDD

Edited by juppschmitz

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5 hours ago, hunenka said:

That Berens script is so bad it would be hilarious, except it’s a pretty good symbol of what exactly went wrong with the show and that makes it very tragic.

I can’t wrap my head around the fact that someone who’s supposedly a professional writer would put things like that into a script. Just imagine being on the SPN production team and reading this script, and wondering how the hell you’re going to transfer those ridiculous things on the screen.

Even worse, imagine being Jensen and reading the script where everyone is badass and cool and fun, but Dean barely gets a mention. What a slap in his face.

And maybe the oddest idea yet, imagine being Jared and reading the script, wondering how to pull off being “half Christ, half cowboy”…

I agree with all of this but can't help imagining the teasing Jensen probably gave Jared over that. I'm sure all of the above is true but as Jensen is rolling with it and trying to ignore it, I could see Jensen and the rest of the cast harassing Jared. "No, that was too much cowboy, not enough Christ, Jare."

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Sam came across as totally incompetent. My takeaway of the Vampire Cave Debacle was that when Dean had his mind on other stuff, basically worried about Mary and too preoccupied to take lead per normal, things went south very fast. Sam was incapable of taking lead. There was nothing cowboy nor Christlike about it. Pathetic slaughter of the incompetent.

Now compare that to Dean and Benny hunting together in Purgatory, Dean taking out a nest of vampires by himself the several times that he has done it...

Seriously.

These writers need to watch their show's backlog and see how it's done because one Winchester can do it and not look pathetic or pained. He is the one that asks himself when is decapitation not his thang.

Their passive aggressive vendetta is hurting the show and I suspect their careers more than anything.

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2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

These writers need to watch their show's backlog and see how it's done because one Winchester can do it and not look pathetic or pained.

Actually both Winchesters can do it according to show history. Recent writers just choose to make one look incompetent by giving him story arcs that are not organic to his character and then making him fail at them. It's like expecting a scientist to write a successful novel and then being surprised that he/she can't do it. Sure many scientists write scientific papers, but that writing is completely different from novel writing. It would be ridiculous to have the criticism of "why couldn't you write a successful novel, you write things all the time?"

The writers aren't doing Sam's character any favors by trying to force him into roles that aren't in his wheelhouse. All they are doing is showing that they don't like Sam as he is. They want him to be different, force him into a role he doesn't fit. To me, that isn't showing love for a character. If they liked Sam, in my opinion, they would let him be Sam instead of trying to make him be something he isn't.

So basically, for this viewer, I could care less what flowery complimentary stuff the writers write in their scripts - if that thing is even real - if what they end up showing onscreen is anything but complimentary.

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The problem is not that Berens tries and fails in his script to make Sam the sole big amazing badass hero of the story, both Christ-like and John Wayne adjacent at the same time. The problem is that he tries at all.

Why? Why, in a show that is about two brothers, both supposedly amazing and heroic characters, is there this manic, slavering devotion to only one of them, as clearly demonstrated in this writer's work?  There is no rule of TV writing which requires that only one character must be chosen to be the badass hero, with everyone else in a supporting role.

And it's not an isolated one-off problem. I have seen writers on the show work so hard in their episodes to show Sam as the heroic, brave, wise, compassionate, brilliant leader. While Dean, a wonderful and complex and truly heroic character,  keeps getting marginalized as the comic relief whose only admirable quality is the depth of his devotion to his brother.

So yeah, the fact that the writer can't exactly manage to carry off what he was trying to do is not a solace to me.

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9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Actually both Winchesters can do it according to show history. Recent writers just choose to make one look incompetent by giving him story arcs that are not organic to his character and then making him fail at them. It's like expecting a scientist to write a successful novel and then being surprised that he/she can't do it. Sure many scientists write scientific papers, but that writing is completely different from novel writing. It would be ridiculous to have the criticism of "why couldn't you write a successful novel, you write things all the time?"

The writers aren't doing Sam's character any favors by trying to force him into roles that aren't in his wheelhouse. All they are doing is showing that they don't like Sam as he is. They want him to be different, force him into a role he doesn't fit. To me, that isn't showing love for a character. If they liked Sam, in my opinion, they would let him be Sam instead of trying to make him be something he isn't.

So basically, for this viewer, I could care less what flowery complimentary stuff the writers write in their scripts - if that thing is even real - if what they end up showing onscreen is anything but complimentary.

I am not going to argue with you. The writing is a problem. 

4 hours ago, Bergamot said:

The problem is not that Berens tries and fails in his script to make Sam the sole big amazing badass hero of the story, both Christ-like and John Wayne adjacent at the same time. The problem is that he tries at all.

Why? Why, in a show that is about two brothers, both supposedly amazing and heroic characters, is there this manic, slavering devotion to only one of them, as clearly demonstrated in this writer's work?  There is no rule of TV writing which requires that only one character must be chosen to be the badass hero, with everyone else in a supporting role.

And it's not an isolated one-off problem. I have seen writers on the show work so hard in their episodes to show Sam as the heroic, brave, wise, compassionate, brilliant leader. While Dean, a wonderful and complex and truly heroic character,  keeps getting marginalized as the comic relief whose only admirable quality is the depth of his devotion to his brother.

So yeah, the fact that the writer can't exactly manage to carry off what he was trying to do is not a solace to me.

It's the Singer effect?

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3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

I see the official account is continuing its unbiased ways.

I don`t expect anything from this account. 

You know I randomely checked both guys` imdb rating as in the indicator of how much an actor`s name is is searched, usually with new upcoming projects, Emily Swallow`s helmeted voice role in Mandalorian gave her a huuuuuge boost for example because that show is white-hot right now.

Haven`t done that in forever and during really good times they were consistently in the 200s/100s, then dropped to the 500s and down. It also used to make a difference which episode featured whom more. Now Jensen is at 1291 and Jared is at 1721 and that is roughly their new home. The biggest boost was the one week where Jared`s arrest was in tabloids and, to a lesser degree, the week of the Walker announcement.

But Supernatural isn`t moving the needle for either of them, like at all. Even the current Sam-centric episode didn`t boost Jared one bit. The highest Jensen got from an episode last Season was "Don`t go into the woods" - wasn`t that the one with the annoying teens? Like, wth? And Jared with Game Night. Huh? Though both were negliable bumps.

Edited by Aeryn13
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18 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I don`t expect anything from this account. 

You know I randomely checked both guys` imdb rating as in the indicator of how much an actor`s name is is searched, usually with new upcoming projects, Emily Swallow`s helmeted voice role in Mandalorian gave her a huuuuuge boost for example because that show is white-hot right now.

Haven`t done that in forever and during really good times they were consistently in the 200s/100s, then dropped to the 500s and down. It also used to make a difference which episode featured whom more. Now Jensen is at 1291 and Jared is at 1721 and that is roughly their new home. The biggest boost was the one week where Jared`s arrest was in tabloids and, to a lesser degree, the week of the Walker announcement.

But Supernatural isn`t moving the needle for either of them, like at all. Even the current Sam-centric episode didn`t boost Jared one bit. The highest Jensen got from an episode last Season was "Don`t go into the woods" - wasn`t that the one with the annoying teens? Like, wth? And Jared with Game Night. Huh? Though both were negliable bumps.

Hopefully Jensen will get a bit of a bump when The Long Halloween is announced

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7 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Hopefully Jensen will get a bit of a bump when The Long Halloween is announced

What is that?

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 It was a 13-part comic book story that DC is going to be making into an animated film, which may be in two parts. According to some sites, Jensen is going to be voicing one of the characters. Which character it is, is not certain but some think it will be Harvey Dent. 

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If you want to watch an actor who can ride every subtle nuance of an emotional wave then Jensen is your actor. All the tiny details, micro expressions, the look in his eyes, I can always connect with Dean.

I have to believe Jensen is on the wanted lists of entertainment wheeler dealers. He’s so good and can do it all. Action, comedy, romance, superhero, etc.  Plus he’s professional and a class act all the way.  Then there’s the drop dead good looks.
 

I’ll be following his career always. Fingers crossed for an HBO  series.

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16 hours ago, Lemuria said:

 It was a 13-part comic book story that DC is going to be making into an animated film, which may be in two parts. According to some sites, Jensen is going to be voicing one of the characters. Which character it is, is not certain but some think it will be Harvey Dent. 

This is exactly what I don't want Jensen to be doing. I need to see him in all his nuances as mentioned above; not a comic drawn figure with just his voice. I wouldn't watch it - even with Jensen's voice.

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12 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

This is exactly what I don't want Jensen to be doing. I need to see him in all his nuances as mentioned above; not a comic drawn figure with just his voice. I wouldn't watch it - even with Jensen's voice.

I would listen to Jensen reading the phone book.  😊

I heard him as Red Hood (or whoever) and thought he got amazing nuance into his voice, even though, yes, I'd rather watch him as well.  

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7 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I would listen to Jensen reading the phone book.  😊

I heard him as Red Hood (or whoever) and thought he got amazing nuance into his voice, even though, yes, I'd rather watch him as well.  

I would listen to that as well. I just wouldn't have any interest in seeing it. I'm a person who hasn't watched any animated movies with the exception of the early Disney films. Just not my thing. 

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3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I would listen to that as well. I just wouldn't have any interest in seeing it. I'm a person who hasn't watched any animated movies with the exception of the early Disney films. Just not my thing. 

I suppose you could turn off the picture and just listen (maybe with the VO description for the blind turned on so you can follow the action.) 😊  

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On 11/25/2019 at 8:06 PM, AwesomO4000 said:

But somehow this makes Jared a jerk, I guess, because he didn't presume to know what Jensen's answer would be and answer for him.

I wouldn't say makes him a jerk, but after  nearly 15 years together, I would expect him to have a pretty good idea about Jensen's feelings.  Didn't at one point they said they spent more time with each other than any other person on the planet?  I respect your opinion but on this I disagree.  

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3 minutes ago, trudysmom said:

I wouldn't say makes him a jerk, but after  nearly 15 years together, I would expect him to have a pretty good idea about Jensen's feelings. 

Great, great point! I completely agree.

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3 hours ago, trudysmom said:

I wouldn't say makes him a jerk, but after  nearly 15 years together, I would expect him to have a pretty good idea about Jensen's feelings. 

Jared has always been more excited about when he gets to do X.  This is his personality and why he plays the little brother so well.  Jensen has always shared the spotlight and it's why he plays the older brother so well.  I don't see it as Jared's a Jerk, just that he tends to focus on what makes him feel excited and etc.  Since they both live in Austin and hang out together, I know Jensen isn't suffering from any hurt feelings. 

Jared is like the big Lab full of energy and easily distracted.  Jensen just rolls with it now.  But do remember when at the beginning Jensen was really shy and not opening up much and Jared took care of him.  I don't think their friendship will end when Supernatural is over.

I think Jensen's pride is sharing the stories they got to tell.  For him it's partnership and that is why he works so well with any actor that he has a scene with. 

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6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The last thing these writers need is someone boosting their already massive egos.

As someone else suggested to me, the only thing they deserve in their stockings is a small lump of coal. (Preferrably already on fire).

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18 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The last thing these writers need is someone boosting their already massive egos.

The comment I would send would be:  "Good luck finding another job!"  

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3 hours ago, Shannonsspirit said:

I find Dabb's interpretation of "what the show has always been" to be both infuriating and incredibly arrogant. How can he state that it's been building since season 1 if he's been rewriting established canon since he took over in season 12? And if it's indeed been building from the beginning then why have the final seasons not been about the brothers and instead have been focused on Jack who has added absolutely nothing to the story? Also, why have the brothers and Cas become devoted to Jack at the expense of everything else since his introduction which is largely OOC compared to their values in seasons 1-11? I'm so angry at the way that these wonderful characters have been butchered under Dabb and Co. I'm even sadder at how many of the newer viewers on SM are only praising the present day fanfiction that we're being given and not appreciating the awesomeness that the show used to be. All IMO, of course. 😥

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2 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I find Dabb's interpretation of "what the show has always been" to be both infuriating and incredibly arrogant. How can he state that it's been building since season 1 if he's been rewriting established canon since he took over in season 12? And if it's indeed been building from the beginning then why have the final seasons not been about the brothers and instead have been focused on Jack who has added absolutely nothing to the story? Also, why have the brothers and Cas become devoted to Jack at the expense of everything else since his introduction which is largely OOC compared to their values in seasons 1-11? I'm so angry at the way that these wonderful characters have been butchered under Dabb and Co. I'm even sadder at how many of the newer viewers on SM are only praising the present day fanfiction that we're being given and not appreciating the awesomeness that the show used to be. All IMO, of course. 😥

DeeDee, I am so sorry for posting the article. I didn't mean to upset anyone. I've keep looking for explanations and possibilities that will shed light on what's  going on, while hoping it is all an illusion or bad dream. I find his interpretation arrogant and shallow, and designed for Jack to step up as the hero and lay to rest the Winchesters.

I do believe that because it is so blatantly obvious, it will make it far easier to rewatch previous seasons with a heightened enjoyment and appreciation. At least that has been my experience of late.

And I admire the actors all the more for ending this , yet, having the integrity to see it through. I'm sure they know that we know what it has been about over the years. Anyone who takes their time from the beginning will see it too. Those who don't, don't deserve it anyway.

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Taking from another thread. Discussion touched on the fact that Dean was ridiculous to expect Sam to look for him (s 8 or to be angry that he didn't.

Ummm...  there is the entire military mindset of not leaving a man behind on a mission...A HUNT IS A MISSION! Also  there was a teenager that had no experience with the supernatural that the Winchesters were responsible for that Sam also abandoned!!! Dean and I found this even more disturbing.

I guess we learned a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam. Dean should have known this because it was essential s 1 Pilot  Dean had to talk Sam into looking for Dad and even then Sam just gave Dean a couple of days. Ii was only the need for revenge for Jessica that changed Sam's plan.it was not loyalty to his family. Throughout the seasons we see Sam from childhood run away from responsibility even if it meant Dean being beaten. And adult Sam just run away too even if it wasn't terribly safe or smart because of mytharc.

He finally grew out of that and he finally apologized to Dean in Love Hurts  We know Sam felt guilty about it. Lucifer taunts him about it in s 11 and it's why imo he took on the trials. 

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12 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

there is the entire military mindset of not leaving a man behind on a mission...A HUNT IS A MISSION!

Even the military will leave behind a blown up corpse where no bones are available for retrieval.

13 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Also  there was a teenager that had no experience with the supernatural that the Winchesters were responsible for that Sam also abandoned!!! Dean and I found this even more disturbing.

Yep. No excuse for Kevin.  That could have been easily dodged by having Crowley kidnap Kevin out of Sam's sight.

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51 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Even the military will leave behind a blown up corpse where no bones are available for retrieval.

That's true,  but that's not what happened in 7x23. Unless Sam had the goo analyzed,  he had no reason to believe Dean and Cas exploded along with Dick. They disappeared - just the facts of how it happened  (while killing something supernatural) should have at least had Sam searching for answers, if not for Dean and Cas's bodies. There's just no good, in-show reason for him to have just walked away. "I was sad" just isn't enough.

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19 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's true,  but that's not what happened in 7x23. Unless Sam had the goo analyzed,  he had no reason to believe Dean and Cas exploded along with Dick. They disappeared - just the facts of how it happened  (while killing something supernatural) should have at least had Sam searching for answers, if not for Dean and Cas's bodies. There's just no good, in-show reason for him to have just walked away. "I was sad" just isn't enough.

Kevin?  How about Kevin...

He didn't even ask himself what might have happened. He didn't research. Compare it to the end of s 6. 

Dean would not have left Kevin behind. Dean would have researched and at least tried to figure out what happened to Sam. It was a supernatural ritual not a military explosion. Dean stabbed a guy with a ritual blade. And If Sam had returned Dean would not have taken his guilt out on the being that saved him in a murderous vendetta.

In reference to Dean's  fate and Rowena's fate as written in Death's books...

Death told Rowena her fate.

We do not know that Dean's was rewritten again. Presumably one's fate changes depending on choices and chance and roads taken. Death implied that when Dean went to the AU all of his books were rewritten with one fate (Michael burns this world using his body as a vessel) except one (he's in a Malak box with Michael). We assumed it was AU Michael. Death never specified. 

This season we have had references to Death, her library and Michael and next week Adam is free meaning Michael is free. Dean's fate may still be in play. If I were him I would start to wonder and I would look for the key to find out

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1 hour ago, Katy M said:

Even the military will leave behind a blown up corpse where no bones are available for retrieval.

There was only black leviathan goop left behind.  Nothing to indicate that Dean or Cas exploded.  The human body is messy, so there would have been red mixed with the black.  There wasn't.

When they disappeared, Sam's first words were "Where are they"  That IMO, means he thinks they are still alive.  Otherwise he would have asked "are they dead". 

It was the exact same circumstances Dean disappeared back in the episode where Dean went back to the 40s.  He disappeared in a flash of light.  Then figured out how to communicate with Sam from a different decade.  

So why would Sam automatically assume Dean was dead when he wasn't last time?

'No info" doesn't work since Sam was standing in Leviathan headquarters.  There was also some leviathans alive, so Sam could have tracked them down and interrogated them. 

Sam could have also tryed praying to Cas.   If he was too sad Sam he could have reached out to Jody or Garth to ask them to monitor for signs. 

Sam gave up without even trying, so IMO, Dean had every right to be upset that Sam didn't even make an effort.

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13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There was only black leviathan goop left behind.  Nothing to indicate that Dean or Cas exploded.  The human body is messy, so there would have been red mixed with the black.  There wasn't.

When they disappeared, Sam's first words were "Where are they"  That IMO, means he thinks they are still alive.  Otherwise he would have asked "are they dead". 

It was the exact same circumstances Dean disappeared back in the episode where Dean went back to the 40s.  He disappeared in a flash of light.  Then figured out how to communicate with Sam from a different decade.  

So why would Sam automatically assume Dean was dead when he wasn't last time?

'No info" doesn't work since Sam was standing in Leviathan headquarters.  There was also some leviathans alive, so Sam could have tracked them down and interrogated them. 

Sam could have also tryed praying to Cas.   If he was too sad Sam he could have reached out to Jody or Garth to ask them to monitor for signs. 

Sam gave up without even trying, so IMO, Dean had every right to be upset that Sam didn't even make an effort.

And Sam felt guilty, drank, took up with a woman just like Dean, took out his guilt on Benny and Dean... 

The writers wanted to give him a dark human arc to push Dean into doing something reckless like taking on the MoC and becoming demonic to push Sam into going really dark and using the BotD and releasing the Darkness to remove the Mark.  Carver essentially used Kripke's original plan of Sam goes dark to save Dean without letting Sam have a supernatural whitewash to explain his bad behavior. It was ugly to watch however now they are more mature I guess. The only nice part of the Jack episodes was seeing their maturity even if it was wasted on him.

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2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

That's true,  but that's not what happened in 7x23. Unless Sam had the goo analyzed,  he had no reason to believe Dean and Cas exploded along with Dick. They disappeared - just the facts of how it happened  (while killing something supernatural) should have at least had Sam searching for answers, if not for Dean and Cas's bodies. There's just no good, in-show reason for him to have just walked away. "I was sad" just isn't enough.

And to me the worst part was ignoring what Sam himself said in response to the Alpha Vamp when he asked: "Where do we monsters go when we die?" Sam said "Purgatory". He also knew that the Leviathans came from Purgatory, so that's where Dick would have gone when he died and probably took Dean and Cas with him when he disappeared in goo. And I thought Sam was supposed to be the smart one...

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3 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

And to me the worst part was ignoring what Sam himself said in response to the Alpha Vamp when he asked: "Where do we monsters go when we die?" Sam said "Purgatory". He also knew that the Leviathans came from Purgatory, so that's where Dick would have gone when he died and probably took Dean and Cas with him when he disappeared in goo. And I thought Sam was supposed to be the smart one...

It sucks for Dean because in hindsight all Sam had to do to rescue him was to literally call a cab to go pick him up.

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4 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Taking from another thread. Discussion touched on the fact that Dean was ridiculous to expect Sam to look for him (s 8 or to be angry that he didn't.

Ummm...  there is the entire military mindset of not leaving a man behind on a mission...A HUNT IS A MISSION! Also  there was a teenager that had no experience with the supernatural that the Winchesters were responsible for that Sam also abandoned!!! Dean and I found this even more disturbing.

I guess we learned a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam. Dean should have known this because it was essential s 1 Pilot  Dean had to talk Sam into looking for Dad and even then Sam just gave Dean a couple of days. Ii was only the need for revenge for Jessica that changed Sam's plan.it was not loyalty to his family. Throughout the seasons we see Sam from childhood run away from responsibility even if it meant Dean being beaten. And adult Sam just run away too even if it wasn't terribly safe or smart because of mytharc.

He finally grew out of that and he finally apologized to Dean in Love Hurts  We know Sam felt guilty about it. Lucifer taunts him about it in s 11 and it's why imo he took on the trials. 

There IS a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam, as you've stated, which is why I've never bought into the brother bond or moments. I, IMHO, can NEVER trust Sam to do anything unless he sees something of himself in it. I can turn his back on Dean and anyone else at the drop of a hat. This is what they have done with the character throughout the series. He is his own person, which is not a bad thing, except his needs, wants and drives are more important than anything else. 

I know you believe and the writers are trying to make us believe that he has changed and is committed now. I just cannot as I know the writers will have Sam be his old self as soon as they need him to be. His apologies are in the same vein, IMO. The writers sacrificed his character and integrity to service the plot to his detriment and because of that I cannot trust him and I cannot believe when others, especially Dean, trust him.

Rant over. Just my opinion.

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Brought over from the "These spoilers suck" thread: no spoilers:

15 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam per the pilot originally hunted for revenge and because of their obsession with Sam tropes the writers struggled for him to find purpose in hunting until Carver. I am really glad the writing is continuing to give him that purpose even though they have reverted to the familiar something is wrong with Sam trope for the final season.

12 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

And Sam felt guilty, drank, took up with a woman just like Dean, took out his guilt on Benny and Dean... 

The writers wanted to give him a dark human arc to push Dean into doing something reckless like taking on the MoC and becoming demonic to push Sam into going really dark and using the BotD and releasing the Darkness to remove the Mark. 

Carver essentially used Kripke's original plan of Sam goes dark to save Dean without letting Sam have a supernatural whitewash to explain his bad behavior.

I thought Sam's purpose for hunting was pretty straightforward for most of the series. Starting season 2, it was partially out of guilt after John's death and partially out of Sam's need to not be evil / try to make something good out of his situation.

Season 4 was iffy, but understandably so.

Starting season 5 it was to make up for his mistakes and that was strengthened  in season 6B through 7 with giving Sam purpose. Sam liked having that purpose enough that it replaced his desire for a normal life - see "Swap Meat" and "The French Mistake" - and continuing into season 7, that purpose only got stronger as it helped to keep Sam focused and semi-sane. Even when Sam was dying in "The Born-Again Identity," helping Marin by solving her ghost problem helped to keep Sam grounded and gave him a purpose.

That was all pretty straight forward to me. It was Carver's suddenly having Sam say "screw it. This isn't my problem any more" and "Kevin? Who's Kevin?" that was the narrative struggling with making Sam's reasoning make sense. Even in "Mystery Spot" Sam hunted obsessively and for purpose - not just to find the Trickster to get Dean back, but other hunts also - so giving it up and shrugging his shoulders is what made no sense.

Carver just brought Sam back to where he had been before Carver screwed with his character and pretty much assassinated it. I don't buy the redoing Sam's redemption theory, because Carver added too many nasty other things in there - like abandoning Kevin, the whole Benny jealousy thing, and that "The Purge" speech - that wasn't necessary, and was mainly there for manufactured angst and to make Benny and Gadreel look good. Even Dean's character was sacrificed to make Benny look good, so there was more going on there than "fixing" Sam's arc, in my opinion.

Also, Sam's redemption from Carver was pretty weak. Not even a definite "I'm sorry," and given way down the line a season or so too late.  Gamble's tenure gave us way more in that department than Carver did. The one main brother conflict - Amy - was resolved via compromise and a better understanding of one another afterwards. Which the Amy thing was another thing Carver retconned, made ugly, and then never resolved.

And then Carver had Dean go dark, giving him a "supernatural" excuse, and not really resolving that... except to excuse Dean's behavior. So why "fix" Sam's arc by supposedly taking away his "supernatural excuse" only to give Dean a supernatural excuse for his going dark? That sounds both a bit hypocritical - as in why is it only Sam's character that has to get the ugly redo arc? - and contradictory.

So it's hard for me to buy that Carver believed a "redo" redemption was needed for Sam when at the same time he repeated the supernatural excuse arc with Dean, except for Dean somehow it was okay, and no ugly "redo" was necessary. That pretty much defeats the entire argument for me right there.

I still think it was mainly an excuse for Carver to give his original characters a chance to shine and be the "real" heroes of the story... Until season 10 when he finally cut that shit out***, and the show was much, much better for it, in my opinion.

*** Well, mostly. He did still try to make Cole happen a few times.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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16 hours ago, Res said:

There IS a fundamental difference between Dean and Sam, as you've stated, which is why I've never bought into the brother bond or moments. I, IMHO, can NEVER trust Sam to do anything unless he sees something of himself in it. I can turn his back on Dean and anyone else at the drop of a hat. This is what they have done with the character throughout the series. He is his own person, which is not a bad thing, except his needs, wants and drives are more important than anything else. 

I think Sam's true tragedy is that he *wasn't* born into a "normal" family.  If he had been, all his behavior, whether self-centered or only helping when he wants to, would be considered normal.  

His main problem was that he had Dean as a brother, who brought self-sacrifice and duty and protecting family to arguably unhealthy standards.  Of course, it's because his upbringing required it, and he embraced it; but it's still hard to live up to.  And the fact that Jensen transcended what might have been way too "perfect", turning what could have been a caricature into someone 3-dimensional--annoying, admirable and tragic at the same time--tended to make Sam look ungrateful at best.   

So while I can understand Sam as a character who would probably be interesting in any other show, in the SPN world he comes across to me as smug and self-important and not particularly heroic, no matter how the writers may try to paint him that way.    

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On 12/9/2019 at 12:36 PM, ahrtee said:

I think Sam's true tragedy is that he *wasn't* born into a "normal" family.  If he had been, all his behavior, whether self-centered or only helping when he wants to, would be considered normal.  

His main problem was that he had Dean as a brother, who brought self-sacrifice and duty and protecting family to arguably unhealthy standards.  Of course, it's because his upbringing required it, and he embraced it; but it's still hard to live up to.  And the fact that Jensen transcended what might have been way too "perfect", turning what could have been a caricature into someone 3-dimensional--annoying, admirable and tragic at the same time--tended to make Sam look ungrateful at best.   

So while I can understand Sam as a character who would probably be interesting in any other show, in the SPN world he comes across to me as smug and self-important and not particularly heroic, no matter how the writers may try to paint him that way.    

Wow. Well put. And the writers have shown us exactly how unhealthy Dean's characteristics are in recent seasons, most recently having used his propensity for self sacrifice to propel him into darkness via the Mark of Cain/demonic Dean and the despondent recklessness in season 13 which ultimately lead to him saying yes to AU Michael.

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On 12/9/2019 at 4:25 AM, AwesomO4000 said:

Brought over from the "These spoilers suck" thread: no spoilers:

I thought Sam's purpose for hunting was pretty straightforward for most of the series. Starting season 2, it was partially out of guilt after John's death and partially out of Sam's need to not be evil / try to make something good out of his situation.

Season 4 was iffy, but understandably so.

Starting season 5 it was to make up for his mistakes and that was strengthened  in season 6B through 7 with giving Sam purpose. Sam liked having that purpose enough that it replaced his desire for a normal life - see "Swap Meat" and "The French Mistake" - and continuing into season 7, that purpose only got stronger as it helped to keep Sam focused and semi-sane. Even when Sam was dying in "The Born-Again Identity," helping Marin by solving her ghost problem helped to keep Sam grounded and gave him a purpose.

That was all pretty straight forward to me. It was Carver's suddenly having Sam say "screw it. This isn't my problem any more" and "Kevin? Who's Kevin?" that was the narrative struggling with making Sam's reasoning make sense. Even in "Mystery Spot" Sam hunted obsessively and for purpose - not just to find the Trickster to get Dean back, but other hunts also - so giving it up and shrugging his shoulders is what made no sense.

Carver just brought Sam back to where he had been before Carver screwed with his character and pretty much assassinated it. I don't buy the redoing Sam's redemption theory, because Carver added too many nasty other things in there - like abandoning Kevin, the whole Benny jealousy thing, and that "The Purge" speech - that wasn't necessary, and was mainly there for manufactured angst and to make Benny and Gadreel look good. Even Dean's character was sacrificed to make Benny look good, so there was more going on there than "fixing" Sam's arc, in my opinion.

Also, Sam's redemption from Carver was pretty weak. Not even a definite "I'm sorry," and given way down the line a season or so too late.  Gamble's tenure gave us way more in that department than Carver did. The one main brother conflict - Amy - was resolved via compromise and a better understanding of one another afterwards. Which the Amy thing was another thing Carver retconned, made ugly, and then never resolved.

And then Carver had Dean go dark, giving him a "supernatural" excuse, and not really resolving that... except to excuse Dean's behavior. So why "fix" Sam's arc by supposedly taking away his "supernatural excuse" only to give Dean a supernatural excuse for his going dark? That sounds both a bit hypocritical - as in why is it only Sam's character that has to get the ugly redo arc? - and contradictory.

So it's hard for me to buy that Carver believed a "redo" redemption was needed for Sam when at the same time he repeated the supernatural excuse arc with Dean, except for Dean somehow it was okay, and no ugly "redo" was necessary. That pretty much defeats the entire argument for me right there.

I still think it was mainly an excuse for Carver to give his original characters a chance to shine and be the "real" heroes of the story... Until season 10 when he finally cut that shit out***, and the show was much, much better for it, in my opinion.

*** Well, mostly. He did still try to make Cole happen a few times.

Dean going Dark was Dean or did you miss that. It was simply Dean without guilt, responsibility and mostly without his brother which is why it only lasted 3 episodes.

The entire point of Demon Dean was to fuel Sam's dark arc. That's why it was resolved so quickly. As established in s 3 and reestablished in episodes 10:1 and especially in 10:2 with its callbacks to s 3, Sam is horrified by the idea of Dean as a demon and tortured by the fact he didn't safe him previously. 

Season 10 was about Sam going dark. The first 2 episodes showed Sam doing worse things than demon Dean. The entire season showed Sam doing worse things than MoC Dean. Sam tortured. Sam made demon deals. Sam agreed to assassinate someone as payment for a transaction. Sam lied to his brother and friends to get them to do things. Sam told Cas to have Oskar killed for a dark magic spell. Sam handed over powerful grimoires that the MoL locked away from witches to a powerful dark witch. And he used the BotD after he had been told that doing so  would have cause a biblical catastrophe. He did all of this for personal reasons. None of this was for the greater Good. 

In contrast the only killing Dean did was to save himself, his family or as part of the hunt. I consider the eradication of invading Steins hunting. The death of Rudy collateral damage. The dude was dead by his own incompetence already  The fact that Dean was guilt ridden by his death and decided to check out as a result is in stark contrast to Sam who just keeps going despite Dean's near death, his own near death, Charlie's death...  

Sam does not open his eyes until he sees the bodies pile up in the hospital after he has released the Darkness and Death literally walks in singing. Then he says. Okay. This is on me. I have to change. Cue... redemption arc.

Dean goes dark in a 13 when he recklessly pursues saving Mary, then Sam... and Jack despite the methods being ill advised. Billie told him not to jump between worlds. Anyone could see AU Michael was not a good plan. But...

Sam and Dean are different characters. Going dark isn't going to look the same. They both made mistakes trying to save family. It's a Winchester thing.

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21 minutes ago, Castiels Cat said:

Wow. Well put. And the writers have shown us exactly how unhealthy Dean's characteristics are in recent seasons, most recently having used his propensity for self sacrifice to propel him into darkness via the Mark of Cain/demonic Dean and the despondent recklessness in season 13 which ultimately lead to him saying yes to AU Michael.

I’ve always seen Dean as rather mentally ill. Not psychotic or sociopathic obviously but more along the lines of untreated mood disorders, OCD, depression and a tendency to self medicate. 

Sam is far more the stable “normal” one thrown into abnormal circumstances and doing his best to deal with it. 

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17 minutes ago, Ria said:

I’ve always seen Dean as rather mentally ill. Not psychotic or sociopathic obviously but more along the lines of untreated mood disorders, OCD, depression and a tendency to self medicate. 

Sam is far more the stable “normal” one thrown into abnormal circumstances and doing his best to deal with it. 

I am a Dean girl. That said I  thought he was increasing unstable in season 13 and jensen the writers did a good job of showing it.

And yes Dean definitely has a tendency towards depression and self medication.

I think Sam has issues as well. Just My Imagination is a great episode to understand his character.

Their characters have both evolved from the parenting they received. Dean obviously was ridden hard and responsible for too much at a young age.

Sam felt left out and neglected and developed a chip on his shoulder as a result and felt like an outsider in his family.

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1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Dean going Dark was Dean or did you miss that. It was simply Dean without guilt, responsibility and mostly without his brother which is why it only lasted 3 episodes.

For me, Dean going dark lasted a whole lot longer than 3 episodes. For me Dean going dark started with him deciding to take on the mark of Cain, and once that happened, Dean had the supernatural excuse of the mark fueling his actions - both before, during and after he became a demon.

Dean went through a lot of the same things that Sam did in his dark arc. Listening to a demon (in Dean's case, Crowley), justifying using the dark powers for good, arrogantly saying that because he was more powerful, that he got to make all of the calls and Sam's opinion was moot, because Sam wasn't as strong as he (Dean) was, going for revenge, trying to kill Sam, saying horrible things to Sam, etc. However, in Dean's case, his actions were not shown in the same bad light as Sam's were. Dean was justified when he killed Abaddon. He was justified in killing Death. Dean never had to apologize for taking on the mark. He never had to admit he was wrong for anything he did. Instead, Sam had to almost apologize to Dean, and infer that Dean was right to take on the mark.

And Dean never had to admit he was wrong about Gadreel either. There was never an apology for any of his actions. And much of it was excused because Dean was under the influence of the mark, so he had a supernatural excuse.

I personally don't see all that much difference between the arcs, but I see a lot of difference in how they were presented / treated. And if it is true that Carver put Sam's character through all of that character assassination to take away his "supernatural excuse" and give him a "real redemption" (I thought Sam's first one and the character growth he had the first time during seasons 5-7 was just fine, thank you very much), then why was Dean allowed to do basically the same thing  with a supernatural excuse and instead be justified for it? Dean didn't have to apologize or even admit that anything he did was wrong - quite the opposite. He insisted he was right about both the mark and Gadreel, and then the narrative pretty much said that he was right. Dean didn't have to learn anything or change any of his opinions or do anything differently.

So I didn't miss Dean's dark arc. I missed the part where the narrative implied that it was the worst thing ever and Dean had to be dragged through the mud character-wise to make up for it. Apparently that only had to happen for Sam. Which is why I say that the explanation that Carver did what he did to "redeem" Sam falls flat for me if it's only Sam that has to go through that, while it's perfectly fine for Dean to be basically justified in his going dark with "supernatural excuses" for his actions. The entire message loses meaning for me in that case.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam agreed to assassinate someone as payment for a transaction.

Again, this was Crowley... a demon who did horrible things to Sam's friends and to Dean. In my opinion, that Dean didn't try to kill Crowley - and just as bad, trusted Crowley - was even worse than Sam trying to kill him. In Sam's opinion it was pretty much win - win in terms of killing Crowley, and I can't say that I disagree.

1 hour ago, Castiels Cat said:

Sam told Cas to have Oskar killed for a dark magic spell.

Just because you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Sam never told Castiel to have Oskar killed. What Sam told Castiel was, "I need you to do this for me. Make the spell happen whatever it takes, please." That's it. Then he left, because Rudy needed Sam to help him with Dean who was going rogue on the vampire hunt.

The last Sam heard was that the only thing Rowena had loved was a peasant boy named Oskar - who had lived 300 years ago, and was therefor logically dead. The spell called for a sacrifice of "something" that Rowena loved. It could've been a pet. Hell it could have been the spell book itself or even Rowena's natural witchy powers both of which actually would've made a huge amount of sense since there is little that Rowena loved more than her natural power and independence.

So no, Sam did not tell Castiel to have Oskar killed. Sam didn't even know that Oskar was still alive. Neither did Castiel. It was Castiel who decided to go get help from Crowley, and it was Crowley who went and found Oskar once he heard the description of the last ingredient of the spell, all on his own initiative, in order to get revenge on Rowena. (More evidence that killing Crowley would've been the more just thing.)

Now I'm not saying at all that Sam wasn't far enough gone to contemplate a human sacrifice, but he never actually made that call. And there is no knowing that if he had been faced with that decision, whether he would have gone through with it or not. We will never know, because Sam wasn't there.

Now killing Crowely? Hell yes. Sam generally wanted to kill Crowley on principal already. Trying to kill Crowley was basically a recurring thing in their relationship, starting from the first moment they met. So killing Crowley for the spell would have been no problem, and I, for one, would have been saying "faster pussycat, kill kill." Because Crowley would have deserved it.

Quote

In contrast the only killing Dean did was to save himself, his family or as part of the hunt. I consider the eradication of invading Steins hunting. The death of Rudy collateral damage. The dude was dead by his own incompetence already  The fact that Dean was guilt ridden by his death and decided to check out as a result is in stark contrast to Sam who just keeps going despite Dean's near death, his own near death, Charlie's death... 

I'm not sure what you mean here. Sam felt very guilty about Charlie (even though her death wasn't his fault). And Sam "kept going" because he was trying to save Dean.

For me, that one last Stein was a bit of a choice, even if arguably he was fairly bad. Doesn't mean he couldn't have been reformed though. And Rudy could have been saved, in my opinion. Dean was just too far gone to be bothered with not being reckless.

Quote

Sam and Dean are different characters. Going dark isn't going to look the same. They both made mistakes trying to save family. It's a Winchester thing.

Actually for me, it did look quite a bit the same in a lot of ways. It was the consequences that were more different.

2 hours ago, Castiels Cat said:

I think Sam has issues as well. Just My Imagination is a great episode to understand his character.

You and I agree on this point... we just entirely disagree concerning what that episode said about Sam's character.

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12 hours ago, Ria said:

I’ve always seen Dean as rather mentally ill. Not psychotic or sociopathic obviously but more along the lines of untreated mood disorders, OCD, depression and a tendency to self medicate. 

Sam is far more the stable “normal” one thrown into abnormal circumstances and doing his best to deal with it. 

This is why I find Dean the far more interesting character.   When I look at Dean in the pilot and Dean now, I see someone who has been bogged down by a hard life of loss, pain and suffering, but at the same time we see glimpes of season 1 Dean when he gets to cut lose and relax.  

There is such a difference between Jensen and Dean when I see them in photos.  He does such a good job of showing us the weight Dean has been carrying. 

Anybody who has been through what Dean's been through, I d be surprised if they didn't suffer from some kind of mental illness.    People who suffer from a mental illness can be the strongest people becuase of what they go through.  Dean's basically been looking after everything and everyone since he was four.  The tremendous burden he's carried and still puts one foot in front of the other shows just how strong he really is.

It doesnt' bother me that Dean falls down sometimes and needs help getting up.  Everyone does. 

Dean is such a multi-layered, complex 3D character he feels almost real at times. 

Kudos to Jensen for still keeping Dean for creating my favorite fictional character of all time. , even in Dabbnatural where everyone has been sanded, polished and smoothed into caricatures and plot points, Sam especially .   "Stable" perfect character are boring. 

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17 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Anybody who has been through what Dean's been through, I d be surprised if they didn't suffer from some kind of mental illness.  

Not to mention 40 years of being tortured in Hell (as far as I'm concerned, the last ten were torture for him, too) that he remembers every minute of. One of the things I hate the most about what they've done to Dean is the glossing over/minimizing of this, especially when they do it by comparing it to Sam's time in the cage. IMO, Sam got relieved of that trauma when Castiel took on his Hell memories/pain in 7x23 (you can argue that, but I won't be convinced), but even if he didn't, it doesn't change or minimize Dean's experience. Yet with only a very few, brief mentions of it in the ensuing 12 seasons, they practically pretend it never happened. Meanwhile we had a season's worth of Sam pain and it still comes into play thru the 14th season (and no doubt it will again before it's over).

Edited by gonzosgirrl
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13 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Not to mention 40 years of being tortured in Hell (as far as I'm concerned, the last ten were torture for him, too) that he remembers every minute of. One of the things I hate the most about what they've done to Dean is the glossing over/minimizing of this, especially when they do it by comparing it to Sam's time in the cage. IMO, Sam got relieved of that trauma when Castiel took on his Hell memories/pain in 7x23 (you can argue that, but I won't be convinced), but even if he didn't, it doesn't change or minimize Dean's experience. Yet with only a very few, brief mentions of it in the ensuing 12 seasons, they practically pretend it never happened. Meanwhile we had a season's worth of Sam pain and it still comes into play thru the 14th season (and no doubt it will again before it's over).

This is why I don't care anything about Sam's time.  I mute it or fastforward it.  The way they had Dean degrade his own time there so Sam can be the bigger, shiner woobie.  At this point no one will convince me its not a written rule in the writers room, that whatever Dean gets Sam must get 10fold. 

I mean Dean's connection to Amara was back burnered and never really developed.  The connection never really explained, but now that its Sam its been dealt with in almost every episode. 

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20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This is why I don't care anything about Sam's time.  I mute it or fastforward it.  The way they had Dean degrade his own time there so Sam can be the bigger, shiner woobie.  At this point no one will convince me its not a written rule in the writers room, that whatever Dean gets Sam must get 10fold. 

I mean Dean's connection to Amara was back burnered and never really developed.  The connection never really explained, but now that its Sam its been dealt with in almost every episode. 

ITA with this sentiment and it's made me see Red since S5.

I will just never understand that apparent mindset in the writers' room. 

It has not made Sam more popular, but it has, IMO, driven away many Dean fans-and especially those who view Dean as a character unto himself and not just the lesser half of any twitter/tumblr-inspired shipper's dream duo.

Blech.

So relieved that there's only a half season more of this drek for him(and again, for no few of us in his fandom) to have to slog through.

Edited by Myrelle · Reason: Revision
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