“Bitch” Vs. “Jerk”: Where We Discuss Who The Writers Screwed This Week/Season/Ever

[Wayward Son]

33 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam also did this.  "I had something I never had before."  Kind of insulting to tell the guy who raised you that you were never happy with him.  That condescending "organic" remark in episodes to.  The "I want my time to count" remark.  I'm sure I can find more if I re watched the ep.

Sorry to get back to this, but I just finished the episode. While I agree with you that the “I want to make my time count” remark was a dig I don’t think the “I had something I never had” was. Sam clarified that he is referring to a normal life. While I’d argue this is bad canon (he had that at Stanford) I honestly don’t think Dean would dispute the fact their childhood was far from normal. 

[AwesomO4000]

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Actually, Sam and Cas didn't fall into line.  They ended up locking Dean in the bunker dungeon because they felt he was a danger to himself and others.  Dean escaped and went off with Crowley.  Dean ended up having to knock Sam out to keep him out of the way.  That doesn't come across as falling into line to me. 

You may have a point about this. I don't know season 9 as well as some of the seasons. I think Sam did follow Dean's directives at first though... Did they only lock Dean up after he attacked Gadreel? If so, then it wasn't just Sam and Castiel feeling that Dean was a danger, Dean actually was a danger. Sam and Cas thought that they needed Gadreel to figure out how to defeat Metatron. Dean killing him would have been detrimental to their efforts to stop Metatron.

3 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

Sam also told Dean that he wanted his time to count for something.  That is also Sam being a bully because he's disparaging Dean's life's work as if saving people, hunting things isn't important.

It's also pretty out of character if you ask me.  There are so many instances as early as season 2 ("What Is...") where Sam talks about how hunting makes a difference. He reiterated it again and again, going so far as to say he wouldn't even consider staying behind in the alternate universe of "The French Mistake" exactly because "they didn't mean the same thing here," meaning Sam thought that what they did - hunting - was important enough to go back to their less than perfect life in season 7. Sam was even relieved to be back. Carver and the season 8 writers having Sam talk as if hunting doesn't count for anything - for me - is a total retcon of how Sam thinks. Even when Sam didn't want to hunt himself, he always knew and expressed that what Dean - and dad - did was important. To imply Sam thought otherwise, in my opinion, was just more trashing of Sam's character from that time.

My opinion on that.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think the fact that Sam has been holding that "possibility" over his head since season 1 should have been preparation enough, and hardly "out of the blue" 8 years later.  Maybe it was time just to get off his ass and do it. 

I disagree with this. In the episodes between "Everybody Loves a Clown"and season 8, Dean talked about leaving hunting as often as Sam did, maybe more. I could be wrong, but except for the vague "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old"*** from the awful "Chris Angel..." I actually don't remember Sam seriously mentioning the possibility of leaving hunting. I could be forgetting something and would be willing to admit as such if anyone can refresh my memory, but I seriously don't remember Sam even entertaining it, never mind bringing it up to Dean. It's something I often see attributed to Sam, but I actually don't think there is much actual proof for that idea.

I only remember him telling Dean that what they do is important and that they do make a difference when Dean has had the occasional low point doldrums.

*** Which in my opinion was a plot device to get Sam back to drinking demon blood again even though it made almost no sense at the time.

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think the fact that Sam has been holding that "possibility" over his head since season 1 should have been preparation enough, and hardly "out of the blue" 8 years later.  Maybe it was time just to get off his ass and do it. 

I disagree with this. In the episodes between "Everybody Loves a Clown"and season 8, Dean talked about leaving hunting as often as Sam did, maybe more. I could be wrong, but except for the vague "I don't want to be doing this when I'm old"*** from the awful "Chris Angel..." I actually don't remember Sam seriously mentioning the possibility of leaving hunting. I could be forgetting something and would be willing to admit as such if anyone can refresh my memory, but I seriously don't remember Sam even entertaining it, never mind bringing it up to Dean. It's something I often see attributed to Sam, but I actually don't think there is much actual proof for that idea.

I only remember him telling Dean that what they do is important and that they do make a difference when Dean has had the occasional low point doldrums.

I was actually responding specifically to Wayward Son's comment that Sam was being kind by "preparing" Dean for the possibility of his leaving, and that Dean was in some way punishing him for it (and also trying to manipulate him into hunting against his will). 

There are two parts to that:  did Sam have to "prepare" Dean for the possibility of him leaving (whether to go back to school or not) and whether Sam was being bullied or manipulated into hunting against his will.

About the first part:  What I was saying was that Sam had no need to "prepare" Dean, since IMO that's been something he's been aware of since he first picked up Sam at Stanford.  We've seen Sam talk about going back to school, talk about quitting hunting, and (between seasons 7 and 8) he did actually quit, and when Dean came back, he stated flatly that he would only hunt until they found Kevin and then he was out again.  We've seen him leave Dean out of anger, because of a disagreement in what they should do, and because (IIRC) Bobby asked SS not to tell Dean he was back.  Whether or not he meant it as a threat, I can see *Dean* worrying about Sam taking off permanently.  I don't think it's ever something he took for granted or forgot, so I don't think Sam needed to "prepare him" for the possibility.  It would be more like poking at a wound that's not always visible but has never healed.  

As to the other part--was Dean manipulating Sam into hunting against his will?  I think it's pretty clear (for the last few years at least) that Sam has come to embrace hunting (or at least acknowledge that he is--and probably always will be--a hunter.)   But if, at any time before that, he wanted to leave, well, facts show that he could (and has) taken off,  and nothing Dean could do or say would prevent it if he really wanted to.   

So actually to me the comment was not about "would Sam leave hunting" so much as "does *Dean* believe that Sam might leave him?"   

[AwesomO4000]

Bolded part for too long: didn't read.

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

About the first part:  What I was saying was that Sam had no need to "prepare" Dean, since IMO that's been something he's been aware of since he first picked up Sam at Stanford.  We've seen Sam talk about going back to school, talk about quitting hunting, and (between seasons 7 and 8) he did actually quit, and when Dean came back, he stated flatly that he would only hunt until they found Kevin and then he was out again. 

I understood that, but I still disagree... not that Sam needed to prepare Dean per se, but in that Sam's leaving hunting at all even made sense to me. I know it did to some, but for me, it did not seem in character the way it was presented. Now if Carver had presented it as more of Sam had finally just been done with it... that hunting had cost him so much, and he finally just couldn't any more, because it was too painful, okay, fine, but the way Carver presented it for me was as if Sam was saying well of course I just gave it all up, why wouldn't I? As if Sam had been reset to early season 2, and 6 years of Sam character development were just thrown out the window so that Carver could have his plotline - which was awful anyway.

I also disagreed with the "holding it over Dean's head" part, since I don't remember Sam ever doing that until Carver did it in season 8. Since season 2, Sam left Dean three times(?) Once when they had an argument, once when he had to get his head back on straight due to his addiction problem (and that was mutual), and once when he was angry. Two out of those three times, Sam came back. He also told Dean once that he had been wrong to leave, "every time" and he was sincere about that at the time (even though that last time he left was after that declaration, but it was extreme circumstances.) If anyone held leaving over anyone's head, it was Dean in early season 5 when he wrote Sam off. Sam had to walk on eggshells wondering if he could live up to his second chance or would Dean leave him again. And then Dean did leave him again and Sam had to hunt him down.

But my main point was that I didn't remember Sam even hinting to Dean that he would leave hunting permanently*** if given the chance at any time after early season 2, never mind "hold it over Dean's head" as a threat. In season 6 and 7, it was actually the opposite, since Sam told Dean specifically that he had Dean's back - meaning that he would be there for Dean. And Sam was very sincere in that statement. Which pisses me off even more when I think about how Carver just threw that all out the window in season 8. So for me, it did come flying out of nowhere.

What Dean might be thinking due to his abandonment issues is another story, but what I quoted wasn't talking about Dean's perception, but about Sam having actively held that threat of leaving over Dean's head for years anyway, so that would be why Dean wouldn't be surprised about Sam leaving.  That's the main thing I disagreed with. The second thing I disagreed with was that Sam acting that way in season 8 was in character to begin with considering his character development (especially in seasons 5, 6, and 7. I didn't think it was, but miles may vary for others.

*** Sam's leaving in season 5 was always meant to be temporary, which is why - despite burning his IDs (I say to avoid the temptation to hunt) - Sam took a temporary job rather than make any plans to go back to school or get into something more permanent.

Edited October 16, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[ahrtee]

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But my main point was that I didn't remember Sam even hinting to Dean that he would leave hunting permanently*** if given the chance at any time after early season 2, never mind "hold it over Dean's head" as a threat. In season 6 and 7, it was actually the opposite, since Sam told Dean specifically that he had Dean's back - meaning that he would be there for Dean. And Sam was very sincere in that statement. Which pisses me off even more when I think about how Carver just threw that all out the window in season 8. So for me, it did come flying out of nowhere.

What Dean might be thinking due to his abandonment issues is another story, but what I quoted wasn't talking about Dean's perception, but about Sam having actively held that threat of leaving over Dean's head for years anyway, so that would be why Dean wouldn't be surprised about Sam leaving.  That's the main thing I disagreed with. The second thing I disagreed with was that Sam acting that way in season 8 was in character to begin with considering his character development (especially in seasons 5, 6, and 7. I didn't think it was, but miles may vary for others.

 

As I said, I wasn't necessarily talking about Sam leaving hunting permanently, though IMO you don't have to keep repeating something over and over for it to still be on the table/in the background.   And yes, I was talking about Dean's abandonment issues here, because that does color his perceptions about Sam leaving, and even if it wasn't spoken out loud, he could still see it as "hanging over his head."  AFAIK, Sam didn't come out and say directly that he was going to keep hunting until the last few years, so there was no way for Dean to know (much less believe) that Sam *wanted* to stay.  But there was still the threat that Sam might get angry enough to take off permanently, even if he continued to hunt without Dean.

And as for Sam telling Dean that he would always be there for him, well, IIRC, that was literally right before he got angry and left.  I'm not saying that it wasn't warranted, just that *saying* he was going to stay and actually *doing* it are two different things, and Dean knows that.  So while I think Sam not looking for Dean in season 8 is OOC, I think that if he knew absolutely that Dean wasn't coming back (and if they had just shown the thought processes behind that so we would know that he actually *had* tried) then IMO it wasn't necessarily OOC for him to try to settle down and quit hunting.  His anger at Dean and Benny *was* OOC.  YMMV.  

As for Sam's "character development" in seasons 5, 6 and 7:  I don't think there's as much (just as related to hunting) as you seem to think there is.   IMO, Sam has never (up until the last few years) embraced "hunting as life."  He always needed some particular (and usually personal) reason to hunt, and the standalone MoW were mostly when there were no more leads in the hunt for the Big Bad and/or Dean pushed something (and yes, Dean did the same thing, though he actively looked for other hunts when other leads dried up).  The difference to me is that we know that Dean always  intended to keep hunting, whether or not there was a Big Bad (and I'm not saying whether it was because he enjoyed it or because he didn't feel he had any other options); while with Sam, there was always the undertone that once *that particular* threat was done, he might stop and settle down.  And that stayed in the background until he actually came out and "embraced the hunting life" in season 11?  12?

But in seasons 1 and 2, Sam's focus was to kill the YED and avenge Jess and Mary (and hopefully prevent himself from going darkside).  Season 3 was focused almost entirely on getting Dean out of his deal, and many of the hunts related to that. Season 4's focus was on killing Lilith--supposedly to stop the seals breaking but also in revenge for sending Dean to hell.  Season 5 he was driven by guilt/the need for absolution for his (perceived!) sin of letting Lucifer out.  Season 6 was SS, the only time Sam admitted  *enjoying* hunting; and, once he got his soul back, he was trying to atone (again) for his *perceived* sins committed while soulless.  Season 7 he was half out of his mind with Lucifer-vision and  trying to stop the Leviathan.  In season 8, he had no "big bad" to fight, Dean was gone, and so he lost his impetus to hunt.  In that context, it makes perfect sense to me.    

Again, JMO.

[shang yiet]

Quote

Emotions are complicated and messy things that are rarely black and white.   People can feel two things at once.   

Sure, both Sam and Dean have those complicated messy emotions about their life, college, hunting,family,etc. Sam can miss Dean but would still want very much to 'escape' his family situation to go to college to decide his own future. 

Quote

Dean has issues with abandonment.  So he would see Sam leaving as Sam leaving him.  Is that fair to Sam, no, but again its a very real issue that again doesn't make Dean this horrible controlling bully the show tries to paint him as. 

 

I agree. Sure. Just like Sam has issues with control and might have problems with people being bossy. He would react a certain way. That doesn't mean it's Dean's fault if he does but it's a real issue too and doesn't make Sam a horrible immature person. Only human. Which leads to the next point

 

Quote

Humans aren't preprogrammed robots who are always going to say and do the  right things.  Maybe Dean didn't use the right words to express that hurt.  But he should be allowed to feel.  

Same goes for Sam and his words. And his feelings.

 

For what it's worth, I did think Bobby's speech to Dean was somewhat harsh (not about the college part) but the other parts. He could have said things differently but I believe Bobby had the best intentions. And he's not a robot as well.

Edited October 16, 2017 by shang yiet

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, ahrtee said:

As for Sam's "character development" in seasons 5, 6 and 7:  I don't think there's as much (just as related to hunting) as you seem to think there is.   IMO, Sam has never (up until the last few years) embraced "hunting as life."  He always needed some particular (and usually personal) reason to hunt, and the standalone MoW were mostly when there were no more leads in the hunt for the Big Bad and/or Dean pushed something (and yes, Dean did the same thing, though he actively looked for other hunts when other leads dried up).  The difference to me is that we know that Dean always  intended to keep hunting, whether or not there was a Big Bad (and I'm not saying whether it was because he enjoyed it or because he didn't feel he had any other options); while with Sam, there was always the undertone that once *that particular* threat was done, he might stop and settle down.  And that stayed in the background until he actually came out and "embraced the hunting life" in season 11? 

I don't know, I guess it depends on how you (in general) look at it. While I agree with some of this - the main one being that Sam didn't necessarily see hunting as enjoyable and something he knew he wanted to keep doing until season 10 - I saw Sam as fundamentally changing after his mistake in season 4. After that mess up, Sam seemed - to me - to want to atone by making a difference. And often I thought in seasons 5-7 Sam equated making a difference with and through hunting. Sam's saying things like what they did (hunting) did make a difference and that the sacrifice was worth it started way back in season 2 with "What Is..." after Dean described the "Sam" in his djinn inspired world, Sam chuckled and told Dean but yeah, he'd rather that they were close and that hunting, though hard was worth it:

Quote

 

Dean: ...But I wanted to stay. I wanted to stay so bad. I mean, ever since Dad... all I can.. all I can think about is how much this job's cost us... We've lost so much. We've... sacrificed so much.

Sam: But people are alive because of you. It's worth it, Dean. It is. It's not fair, and... you know, it hurts like hell, but... it's worth it.

 

So Sam knew and expressed even back then that hunting made a difference... which is why it annoys me that Buckner and Ross-lemming had Sam imply that he wanted to give up hunting because he wanted to make his time count or whatever that was they had him say. To me, that was out of character. Sam had previously (since season 2) expressed how hunting made a difference and was important. For me, it was just another example of the writers regressing Sam for the purposes of angst.

But back to your point about the threat being imminent. For me that actually changed in season 7. It was actually Dean who was the one who was obsessed with killing Dick Roman and ending that threat. As you said, Sam was a little bonkers. For him - to me - the hunting seemed to be what he found to be grounding. And Sam was about the cases of the week - even going off on his own (to sometimes bad results) because he wanted to do a case of the week while Dean researched Dick Roman. And that was unrelated to his guilt about soullessness, because he'd decided he was zen about that for some reason in season 7, so for me this was different.

But in my opinion, the continuing theme - as Sam expressed in "The French Mistake" - is that Sam preferred "their life" (hunting) because they (he and Dean) meant something and made a difference. When Sam said the kid's life in "Swap Meat" actually "sucked ass" he was referring to the apple pie / normal life. "All that apple-pie, family crap? It's stressful. Trust me... We didn't miss a damn thing." I think by as early as season 5, Sam realized that "normal" really wasn't for him and had started detaching himself from it willingly. But I understand if interpretations are different, because there was - especially in season 5 - still that need Sam had to atone.

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

 In season 8, he had no "big bad" to fight, Dean was gone, and so he lost his impetus to hunt.  In that context, it makes perfect sense to me.    

Again, JMO.

But for me that's where Carver's logic lost me. Dean was gone, but we didn't even see Sam try to wrap things up before deciding he was done. He didn't even try to make sure - via medium, via praying to another angel, anything - that Dean was truly at rest and in heaven. So Sam throwing any hunting logic he had out the window and shrugging "ehn, I'm sure it's fine" before he decided to call it a day to me made little sense - especially since Sam had even asked Crowley "where are they" so he was obviously not sure what happened to Dean - if he was now ending hunting because he was "finished" and could move on. Because in addition to not making sure Dean was at rest, in my opinion there actually was still a "big bad" to fight. Sam knew that Crowley had Kevin and the tablet and if logic and history dictated anything, it was that Crowley was going to try to get Kevin to translate that tablet and bad things could happen. And that would be on Sam, because Crowley had both the tablet and Kevin because of Sam and Dean.

Just a couple of seasons ago, Crowley wanted the souls of purgatory to get their power. And now Crowley had a tablet that had history about the leviathans (at the least) who reside in purgatory. A tablet that Dick Roman had also wanted for some reason - which I can only assume was not only not good, but likely meant that the tablet contained something of (evil) use. Could there be information about getting into purgatory again and potentially getting souls and power to do evil? Well, Sam didn't know because he just decided that he was done even though there was a potentially powerful demon (who Sam hated) who had a tablet with who knows what information on it and an innocent teen who could read that tablet - both partly due to Sam. So if anything, Sam shouldn't have hung up his spurs until he'd at least found and saved Kevin. But apparently Sam didn't even feel much guilt about that - until Dean came back and called him out on it. Thanks for that, Carver, really. Way to throw Sam under a bus.

And that's not even including the leviathans still potentially running around. Which Crowley had said Sam should make sure they didn't organize. So another thing not finished.

So it's not that I wouldn't think that Sam might have lost the impetus to hunt once Dean was gone and Sam no longer had a big bad to fight. It was that I didn't think the circumstances of season 8 satisfied those criteria at all. If Sam had made sure that his brother was peacefully at rest and if he'd tracked down Crowley and had at least tried to end him and had tried really hard to save Kevin before quitting, then yup, I'm all in (Well mostly. there were still potentially the rest of the leviathans). Though even then, considering how Sam used to think - pre-Carver - that hunting was important, I'd find it hard to buy that Sam wouldn't occasionally pick up on cases and send them other hunters' way or let them know how to hunt leviathans at the very least (I found the "ehn people die all the time" attitude to also be out of character for Sam, but I realize miles vary.) But I could live with and agree that that was in character and made sense. But that's not what happened.

So for me, unless Sam had a psychotic break, Sam not checking on Dean's fate and at least trying to find Kevin before he stopped hunting was a deal-breaker. It didn't make much sense to me at all.

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Though even then, considering how Sam used to think - pre-Carver - that hunting was important, I'd find it hard to buy that Sam wouldn't occasionally pick up on cases and send them other hunters' way or let them know how to hunt leviathans at the very least (I found the "ehn people die all the time" attitude to also be out of character for Sam, but I realize miles vary.) But I could live with and agree that that was in character and made sense. But that's not what happened.

So for me, unless Sam had a psychotic break, Sam not checking on Dean's fate and at least trying to find Kevin before he stopped hunting was a deal-breaker. It didn't make much sense to me at all.

This is an honest question, not meant to question your feelings about how Sam was written in S8, I promise. But I always wonder this, when I read how Sam was written out of character, that he wouldn't do what they've written him as having done. Maybe he would, maybe he wouldn't, but the fact remains that, in canon, he did do all those things. He didn't look for Dean, he did leave Kevin to twist in the wind, he did say eh, people die all the time. Given that as characters, this is all Dean knows when he came back from Purgatory, don't you think he was justified in being hurt (the not looking for him) and pissed off (about Kevin)?

Edited October 16, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[AwesomO4000]

1 minute ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Given that as characters, this is all Dean knows when he came back from Purgatory, don't you think he was justified in being hurt (the not looking for him) and pissed off (about Kevin)?

Of course! I have never said otherwise. And for me, that just made it all worse.

I was pissed off. I stopped watching the show for the first time since the beginning, and I stopped watching for at least a month and a half. I didn't like Sam, and he's supposed to be my favorite.

And this is exactly why I contend that I can't see how Carver wasn't trying to throw Sam under the bus, because if I don't like Sam here - who was one of my favorite television characters ever - how could the intent have been to make Sam look good? And to rub salt in the wounds, Carver introduces his new "cool" Benny character who is everything that Sam is shown not to be in this first season 8 episode. So no, to me this isn't coincidence. For me, Carver did it deliberately. He was making look Sam not look so good for the angst of it and to make his new character look good in comparison. I don't believe for a moment that we, the audience, was supposed to see Benny as bad or questionable, because in my opinion he wasn't written that way from the beginning. He was written as cool and likeable and loyal to Dean, and we were supposed to see Sam as not being that at the beginning of the season. And then of course, mean Sam says that Benny must go - even though, in my opinion, that, too if it was in character for Sam, was at least exaggerating the worst in Sam. Again, I say no way are we suppose to be on Sam's side here. Not the way that Benny was written so sympathetically.

Sorry for the rant - Carver's trying to ruin Sam - in my opinion - for his own purposes gets under my skin.

[gonzosgirrl]

6 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Of course! I have never said otherwise. And for me, that just made it all worse.

I was pissed off. I stopped watching the show for the first time since the beginning, and I stopped watching for at least a month and a half. I didn't like Sam, and he's supposed to be my favorite.

And this is exactly why I contend that I can't see how Carver wasn't trying to throw Sam under the bus, because if I don't like Sam here - who was one of my favorite television characters ever - how could the intent have been to make Sam look good? And to rub salt in the wounds, Carver introduces his new "cool" Benny character who is everything that Sam is shown not to be in this first season 8 episode. So no, to me this isn't coincidence. For me, Carver did it deliberately. He was making look Sam not look so good for the angst of it and to make his new character look good in comparison. I don't believe for a moment that we, the audience, was supposed to see Benny as bad or questionable, because in my opinion he wasn't written that way from the beginning. He was written as cool and likeable and loyal to Dean, and we were supposed to see Sam as not being that at the beginning of the season. And then of course, mean Sam says that Benny must go - even though, in my opinion, that, too if it was in character for Sam, was at least exaggerating the worst in Sam. Again, I say no way are we suppose to be on Sam's side here. Not the way that Benny was written so sympathetically.

Sorry for the rant - Carver's trying to ruin Sam - in my opinion - for his own purposes gets under my skin.

Thanks for answering. It's something I've always been curious about. I can certainly sympathize with your Carver feelings, because I have the same about Dabb and Dean.

[shang yiet]

Quote

So for me, unless Sam had a psychotic break, 

He did have a psychotic break. You don't think so?

My problem was that Carver was so wishy washy. No follow-through. If he wants to take the 'mature' angle, then don't have Dean and Bobby harping on not looking. Don't bring up Benny as the better brother.

If Sam and Dean made a pact, then let's have Dean and Bobby fine with it. If Sam had a mental breakdown and thus not up to making rational decisions, then don't have Dean and Bobby questioning his actions. Don't bring up Kevin and make Sam at fault for him.

Edited October 16, 2017 by shang yiet

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, shang yiet said:

He did have a psychotic break. You don't think so?

There is no evidence of this though. nothing in a flashback not a word of dialogue.  the flashbacks suggested he was depressed and grieving but  not a psychotic break

Sam did what many people do when they lose everything and everyone and have major grief; they get away from what caused them pain and suffering. They put it behind them. Sam actually on screen by all accounts coped like he has in the past. He made a life for himself. And sometimes grief makes you selfish because your just trying to survive the loss. I can easily see Sam just saying fuck it I'm out and that never seemed OOC to me.

I think he was thoughtless about Kevin and I can put that to selfish grieving. And then thinking other hunters would pick up the slack.

Edited October 16, 2017 by catrox14

[Wayward Son]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

There is no evidence of this though. nothing in a flashback not a word of dialogue.  the flashbacks suggested he was deorryand grieving but hat not a psychotic break

Sam did what many people do when they lose everything and everyone and have major Grief. they get away from what caused them pain and suffering. They put it behind them. Sam actually on screen by all accounts coped like he has in the past. He made a life for himself. And sometimes grief makes you selfish because your just trying to survive the loss. I can easily see Sam just saying fuck it I'm out and that never seemed OOC to me.

I think he was thoughtless about Kevin and I can put that to selfish grieving. And then thinking other hunters would pick up the slack.

IMO Hunteri Heroici was trying to create a parallel between Fred and Sam at the end of season 7. 

Quote

SAM
...take control.

FRED
It's too hard!

SAM
Look, it can be nice living in a dream world. It can be great. I know that. And you can hide, and you can pretend... [the background is now brightly colored rectangles] ...all the crap out there doesn't exist, but you can't do it forever because... eventually, whatever it is you're running from – it'll find you. [CASTIEL appears to be taking SAM’s words to heart.] It'll come along, and it'll punch you in the gut. And then... then you got to wake up, because if you don't, then trying to keep that dream alive will destroy you! It'll destroy everything!

IMO they were trying to show us that Sam had a break like Fred and retreated into a dream world where everything seeemd perfect on the surface, but it wasn’t really. While Fred quite literally broke and fled into his mind Sam broke and just fled from everything including Kevin. 

The problem IMO is a bit like Cas in S6 the writers gave us one episode of Cas POV and expect the audience to work out the best from there. Sadly, only those invested in Cas and Sam can be bothered to do that while the rest are happy to assume the worst. Some say Cas rose Sam soulless purposely or Sam abandoned Dean for no real reason and had a wonderful time without Dean.

[catrox14]

32 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO Hunteri Heroici was trying to create a parallel between Fred and Sam at the end of season 7. 

I never saw that as a parallel but more of a mirror to show that Sam did NOT have the kind of break or even close to what Fred experienced.

Sam was grieving and messed up I'm sure and he  probably drank a lot but he still put one foot in front of the other managed to fine a job as a handyman, kept a roof over his head and he was open enough to connect with Amelia all within one year of Dean's presumed death. Sam  was there to guide Fred away from that hole that he was already in. Sam avoided that deep hole by making a new life for himself hence why I see it as a mirror vs a direct parallel.  YMMV

I think the notions about thinking you can avoid your pain had to do with him having to face that Amelia's husband was back, that he avoided dealing with Kevin but not to retcon a plot point that Sam had a psychotic break himself.

I mean to me considering all of Sam's mental health issues in s7 why wouldn't Carver say that Sam had another break. The audience would believe it. To me, that was Carver saying that Sam had coped in a relatively healthy manner in comparison to poor Fred.

Edited October 16, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

13 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO they were trying to show us that Sam had a break like Fred and retreated into a dream world where everything seeemd perfect on the surface, but it wasn’t really. While Fred quite literally broke and fled into his mind Sam broke and just fled from everything including Kevin. 

There's a big difference between taking a break (even from your normal life and everything you would normally do) and a *psychotic* break where you retreat into a world of your own, with no contact with reality.  Sam was still functioning like a normal human being, just not like "old" Sam.  So only those who were expecting him to behave differently would even think he was having any issues, much less a breakdown.    

Maybe they *were* trying to show that Sam had a breakdown of sorts (though not psychotic), and you can blame the writers, directors or actors for not making it clearer.  But (as I and others have said here before) in the absence of absolute proof--either shown or spoken--anything else is just supposition, conjecture, or wishful thinking, and all interpretations are equally true.  IMO it's both a strength and weakness of the show that they *do* leave so many things ambiguous and let the viewers make their own interpretations.  That gets people more invested, because they get to know the characters in much more depth than other shows; but unfortunately it can also lead to bitterness and overly defensive arguments when people have fundamental differences of opinion, especially when there are no right or wrong answers.  

ETA: What Catrox said while I was writing this.  

[Wayward Son]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

There's a big difference between taking a break (even from your normal life and everything you would normally do) and a *psychotic* break where you retreat into a world of your own, with no contact with reality.  Sam was still functioning like a normal human being, just not like "old" Sam.  So only those who were expecting him to behave differently would even think he was having any issues, much less a breakdown.    

Maybe they *were* trying to show that Sam had a breakdown of sorts (though not psychotic), and you can blame the writers, directors or actors for not making it clearer.  But (as I and others have said here before) in the absence of absolute proof--either shown or spoken--anything else is just supposition, conjecture, or wishful thinking, and all interpretations are equally true.  IMO it's both a strength and weakness of the show that they *do* leave so many things ambiguous and let the viewers make their own interpretations.  That gets people more invested, because they get to know the characters in much more depth than other shows; but unfortunately it can also lead to bitterness and overly defensive arguments when people have fundamental differences of opinion, especially when there are no right or wrong answers.  

ETA: What Catrox said while I was writing this.  

And IMO I think it’s rather obvious Sam had a breakdown of some sort, which accounts for his erratic behaviour between seasons. Sadly, since Dean stated it was just abandonment for abandonment sake itmust be true. I always find it interesting that 90% of those who believe Sam just abandoned him for the sake of a cosy life are also out and out Dean centric fans. 

[ahrtee]

14 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And IMO I think it’s rather obvious Sam had a breakdown of some sort, which accounts for his erratic behaviour between seasons. Sadly, since Dean stated it was just abandonment for abandonment sake itmust be true. I always find it interesting that 90% of those who believe Sam just abandoned him for the sake of a cosy life are also out and out Dean centric fans. 

And what I was saying was that what may be "obvious" to one person may *not* be to another.  In this particular instance, I've never seen anyone (even the most die-hard Dean fans) say Sam "just abandoned him for the sake of a cosy life."  All I'm saying is that *IN THE ABSENCE OF CANON THERE IS NO ONE "OBVIOUS" ANSWER.*  We all have to respect others' opinions, not interpolate what you *think* they believe,  and not declare absolutely that your opinion is the right one.  

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

IMO they were trying to show us that Sam had a break like Fred and retreated into a dream world where everything seeemd perfect on the surface, but it wasn’t really.

I always thought that it was to create a parallel between Fred & Cas. When Sam & Cas are in Fred's dreamscape and Sam said that you can't run from reality ( or something to that effect) the close up on Cas and his later feelings of wanting to return to heaven and fix things seem to support that. Also, in an earlier scene when Cas confides to Dean that he was reluctant to return to because of what he did while he was Levi Cas seems to support the theme of hiding from reality also. Yes it could apply to Sam in this ep but I saw it more with Cas. IMO, of course.

35 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Sadly, since Dean stated it was just abandonment for abandonment sake itmust be true.

Or the writers made it so that it was seen as abandonment by Dean's character. Just as the writers or Carver can be blamed for Sam's overall season 8 behavior the same can be said for Dean.

[catrox14]

48 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

And IMO I think it’s rather obvious Sam had a breakdown of some sort, which accounts for his erratic behaviour between seasons. Sadly, since Dean stated it was just abandonment for abandonment sake itmust be true. I always find it interesting that 90% of those who believe Sam just abandoned him for the sake of a cosy life are also out and out Dean centric fans. 

 I don't know where you're seeing that particular characterization of the situation but I've not seen anyone here make that claim. Not in the manner you are implying. Not that I can recall.

As to it being erratic behavior, that's nothing that was shown. I can imagine it's hard to reconcile the beaten down Sam in s7 with a healthy choice Sam in s8l

IMO Carver was reflecting back to the Sam of s1 and College Sam who made his way in the world without his brother nor his father. IMO that's the dynamic he was working and like I said before, to show that a person coming back from the dead mucks with those who have made a life away from the thing that you thought was gone.

Edited October 17, 2017 by catrox14

[ahrtee]

The sad thing here (to me) is that I'm finding myself arguing *against* what I believe myself just to point out that there are other opinions.  Because, yes, I do believe that Sam had a breakdown of some sort (more that he felt overwhelmed and took off, not that he had a full-fledged break from reality like Fred) and that would explain why he didn't look for Dean (though, as I've said before, I would have preferred that they'd made it canon that he had at least tried.)  But we're talking about canon vs. personal interpretations, and nothing in canon said or showed a breakdown.   So I have my own opinion (which may or may not agree with yours or others) but I won't say anything I believe should be "obvious" to others.  Sometimes it's all a question of semantics.    

[DeeDee79]

57 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

All I'm saying is that *IN THE ABSENCE OF CANON THERE IS NO ONE "OBVIOUS" ANSWER.*  We all have to respect others' opinions, not interpolate what you *think* they believe,  and not declare absolutely that your opinion is the right one.  

Couldn't agree more!

[AwesomO4000]

56 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can imagine it's hard to reconcile the beaten down Sam in s7 with a healthy choice Sam in s8l

My opinions coming up here: I didn't see Sam in season 7 as beaten down at all. In season 7, I saw a Sam who knew he had mental issues, but owned them, learned to live with them, and even in a way made lemonade out of lemons with them by thinking that at least he had "his crazy under one umbrella." In my opinion, season 7 Sam felt good about what he was doing and about who he was as a person, enjoyed and appreciated being with his brother, and never gave up trying to make a difference. Even when Sam was dying, he helped Marin and in helping her, kept himself hanging on. Season 8 Sam gave up and ran away from his responsibilities before even confirming exactly what happened to Dean - something he didn't do in season 7 when in a similar circumstance he saw Dean disappear into a blast of light with a supernatural being. Season 7 Sam did what he could to try to find out what happened to Dean and bring him back...and did so. Season 7 Sam didn't give up.

So for me, I can't reconcile season 8 Sam with season 7 Sam not because I found season 8 Sam to be the one making"healthy" choices, but because I thought the opposite. I found season 8 Sam's choices to ignore his responsibility to Kevin and just give up on Dean and to live his life pretending everything was fine and not really dealing with his feelings to actually be less mature and fairly unhealthy. Which is why I think it lead to Sam's subsequent guilt, denial, petty jealousy, and eventual suicidal attitude in season 8. My opinion only on that.

So basically, I much preferred season 7 Sam to season 8 Sam. In fact, first half of season 8 Sam was my least favorite incarnation of Sam, followed closely by second half of season 9 Sam.

But I have to wonder that if Carver's intent was to show that Sam was making a more mature, healthy decision by abandoning Kevin and not looking for Dean, then why would it be that Sam would end up being the one making ill-advised (Martin) and immature decisions (like his ultimatum about Benny), be the one shown with bad judgement (his insisting that Benny was evil and Martin again), and end up being wracked with guilt and a suicidal mess? Apparently mature and healthy decisions (according to Carver) somehow translate into an unhealthy, suicidal mess of a person... which to me doesn't make a whole lot of sense. So I'm inclined to think that Carver's point was that Sam had made the wrong choices all along - which is what lead to his guilty and suicidal turn later on. YMMV.

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I mean to me considering all of Sam's mental health issues in s7 why wouldn't Carver say that Sam had another break. The audience would believe it.

Because then he couldn't have the angst of a poor Dean whose family had moved on without him and who had found another friend who was probably "better" for him, but he had to give up... because angst.

Quote

To me, that was Carver saying that Sam had coped in a relatively healthy manner in comparison to poor Fred.

And yet Fred ended up relatively happy in his dream world while Sam became a guilt-ridden, miserable, suicidal mess by the end of the season, so there is that.

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Sam actually on screen by all accounts coped like he has in the past. He made a life for himself. And sometimes grief makes you selfish because your just trying to survive the loss. I can easily see Sam just saying fuck it I'm out and that never seemed OOC to me.

When Dean died before, I didn't see Sam coping by making a life for himself. He wanted to fix it ("Mystery Spot") then to get revenge and try to make a difference / take control of the situation. He went headlong into it both times, not just left it all behind to say "I'm out." That did seem OOC to me - especially the lack of guilt he was showing early on - but obviously miles vary.

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

IMO Carver was reflecting back to the Sam of s1 and College Sam who made his way in the world without his brother nor his father.

Except Sam had had 6 seasons of character development since then. Regressing him back to season 1, in my opinion, was disrespectful of the character and of the showrunners who had gone before him.

4 hours ago, shang yiet said:

He did have a psychotic break. You don't think so?

I would like to think that it's more along the lines of what @ahrtee was talking about, but what I think on that particular point doesn't matter, because Carver didn't show it and I assume it was purposeful that he didn't.

I think Carver wanted to show Sam making the wrong decisions, going through a bunch of denial, deflection, and jerky behavior until finally Sam had a suicidal breakdown about it when he realized how wrong he had been... and then Dean saves Sam by showing him the light.

Good gravy I hated season 8.

[Pondlass1]

 I have to smile sometimes.  We twist ourselves into knots attempting to justify the actions of our favourite character when we should be embracing the fact that they’re so very flawed.  Who wants perfection? It’s certainly not the human condition and makes for boring TV.

These brothers are so unpredictable and cryptic....they're just hard to explain sometimes – and I kinda like that.

[AwesomO4000]

4 hours ago, Pondlass1 said:

 I have to smile sometimes.  We twist ourselves into knots attempting to justify the actions of our favourite character when we should be embracing the fact that they’re so very flawed.  Who wants perfection? It’s certainly not the human condition and makes for boring TV.

These brothers are so unpredictable and cryptic....they're just hard to explain sometimes – and I kinda like that.

You're right of course...

I think for me it's the tone / presentation. Season 4 to 5 Sam was certainly "chock full of character defects" (TM Bobby), but I was good with it. I generally prefer Sam, because I relate more to his flaws and like that he has them. I thought season 4 did a decent job of building up to Sam's flaws and examined them in a way that wasn't flippant. My problem with season 8 was that I felt the opposite. I didn't see sufficient build up. Then not only were Sam's faults put on display, they were pretty much mocked in my opinion ("Eeeeat me" and "Well, Sam hit a dog.") or ignored, turning a potentially serious thing - Sam's somewhat extreme response to his grief*** - into a joke or non-entity. For example, Sam didn't seem to be depressed/wracked with guilt/ etc. during the season when he was acting strangely (imo anyway he was), until the end of the season when somehow, seemingly partially out of nowhere, all of a sudden it was serious again in the finale and Sam was suicidal... Well, until it was mocked again later on.

So I guess it's not the faults I mind. I guess it's how the show presents those faults. And it is most annoying for me when it seems that the faults are there mainly to further along a plot point rather than be explored or make any kind of sense. So for example - and this is my opinion only, of course - Sam was somewhat annoyed with Dean and had "moved on" in the season 8 opener, until for some reason instead of just leaving (since there really wasn't anything earth-shattering going on per se) he was jealous and projecting guilt everywhere, then seemingly better, and finally completely suicidal, depending on what the plot wanted. That's when I get frustrated and find things hard to see as in character.

Since I'm mainly about character, I want to know why a character is acting a certain way. Without the why or at least some explanation, it's a whole magnitude less satisfying for me.

*** I am supposing, since Carver kind of skipped over that part, thinking it wasn't necessary to actually show the grief. Nope, he'd rather show unrealistic and lame surprise birthday picnics and endless annoying conversations about nothing in Sam's flashbacks. Why he thought I'd want to see that than actual emotional backstory, I'll never understand. In my opinion, if you don't want to be bothered with emotional backstory, then just don't get into the messy emotional stuff in the first place. Problem solved.

[Wayward Son]

Just watching Southern Comfort and when spectre!possessed Dean is describing Sam’s “greatest hits” he includes Sam not telling him he lost his soul and hanging out with Samuel for a year. Generally, I give characters the benefit of the doubt re what they say while possessed, but between this and then non possessed Dean listing Sam being soulless being a great sin I’m inclined to think that Dean really does blame Sam for being soulless.

 

It’s thanks to that and him still going on about Stanford years later that I consider Dean as presented in season 8 as pretty self centred and prone to making everything about himself. 

Edited October 18, 2017 by Wayward Son

[gonzosgirrl]

12 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Just watching Southern Comfort and when spectre!possessed Dean is describing Sam’s “greatest hits” he includes Sam not telling him he lost his soul and hanging out with Samuel for a year. Generally, I give characters the benefit of the doubt re what they say while possessed, but between this and then non possessed Dean listing Sam being soulless being a great sin I’m inclined to think that Dean really does blame Sam for being soulless.

 

It’s thanks to that and him still going on about Stanford years later that I consider Dean as presented in season 8 as pretty self centred and prone to making everything about himself. 

Much like people hate the (mis)characterization of Sam in S8, I think this is also dumb writing/mischaracterization of Dean. Apart from those two examples, Dean never showed any blame towards Sam for being soulless. In fact, he did the opposite, time and again - and show means more than tell to me. So having him say that in Southern Comfort and was both dumb, and a disservice to all the valid (IMO course) examples he did offer. In my opinion, this was an 'out' for people to dismiss his feelings wholesale, because of this one ridiculous and out of character addition.

Edited October 18, 2017 by gonzosgirrl

[ILoveReading]

2 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Much like people hate the (mis)characterization of Sam in S8, I think this is also dumb writing/mischaracterization of Dean. Apart from those two examples, Dean never showed any blame towards Sam for being soulless. In fact, he did the opposite, time and again - and show means more than tell to me. So having him say that in Southern Comfort and was both dumb, and a disservice to all the valid (IMO course) examples he did offer. In my opinion, this was an 'out' for people to dismiss his feelings wholesale, because of this one ridiculous and out of character addition.

This, IMO, was why it was added.  The show seems to have trouble with characters calling Sam out on this mistakes with adding some kind of "but its not really his fault in there."

Add souless and suddenly the legitmate points Dean was making become invalid and its all anyone focuses on.

I always thought that the penny ramped up feelings of hurt or anger.  Because I don't believe that one guy who was called out when he was 8 and in little league really harboured a 30 year grudge to want the guy dead.

The only way I can explain it, is not telling me you lost your soul was Dean's way of saying he was hurt that Sam didn't tell him he was back for a year, and also that he didn't tell him something was wrong.  Sam might not have known he was soulless but he had to know something wasn't right because you can't go a year without sleeping. 

[gonzosgirrl]

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This, IMO, was why it was added.  The show seems to have trouble with characters calling Sam out on this mistakes with adding some kind of "but its not really his fault in there."

Add souless and suddenly the legitmate points Dean was making become invalid and its all anyone focuses on.

I always thought that the penny ramped up feelings of hurt or anger.  Because I don't believe that one guy who was called out when he was 8 and in little league really harboured a 30 year grudge to want the guy dead.

The only way I can explain it, is not telling me you lost your soul was Dean's way of saying he was hurt that Sam didn't tell him he was back for a year, and also that he didn't tell him something was wrong.  Sam might not have known he was soulless but he had to know something wasn't right because you can't go a year without sleeping. 

I meant to add this to my post, but... typing from phone sucks! Yes, exactly.

[Wayward Son]

20 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

The only way I can explain it, is not telling me you lost your soul was Dean's way of saying he was hurt that Sam didn't tell him he was back for a year, and also that he didn't tell him something was wrong.  Sam might not have known he was soulless but he had to know something wasn't right because you can't go a year without sleeping. 

Even if this is true, and I’d imagine it is, the blame still does not lie with Sam. He did not ask to be soulless. He was not himself as he was missing an essential component that made him the person he was and influenced how he acted. Dean has no right to use it as a weapon against Sam. I can handwave Southern Comfort, because he was not himself there due to the coins influence, but when since did it again during Sacrifice it seems, coin or no coin, Dean does blame Sam for something inflicted on him. Seems pretty selfish to me to try and make something done to Sam all about himself. 

[catrox14]

UO . I never had a problem with Dean including Sam's soullessness in the coin tirade because to me that was not about Sam losing his soul but about Sam LYING to him and letting him be intentionally miserable for a year without ever telling Dean he was alive. And even when they figured out that Sam was soulless, he fought against being re-ensouled him which IMO told Dean something about Sam preferring to be soulless. And I think, or I HOPE, Dean still remembers that SS watched and smiled, when a vampire turned Dean all for an experiment. So if that resentment comes out via the coin, I have no problem with it.

DEAN
Shut up! Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood, check. Being in cahoots with Ruby. Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you're doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!

IMO, him bringing it up during the list of sins was actually intending to be a joke. Not that Dean was serious about it.

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

UO . I never had a problem with Dean including Sam's soullessness in the coin tirade because to me that was not about Sam losing his soul but about Sam LYING to him and letting him be intentionally miserable for a year without ever telling Dean he was alive. And even when they figured out that Sam was soulless, he fought against being re-ensouled him which IMO told Dean something about Sam preferring to be soulless. And I think, or I HOPE, Dean still remembers that SS watched and smiled, when a vampire turned Dean all for an experiment. So if that resentment comes out via the coin, I have no problem with it.

DEAN
Shut up! Mistakes? Well, let's go through some of Sammy's greatest hits. Drinking demon blood, check. Being in cahoots with Ruby. Not telling me that you lost your soul. Or how about running around with Samuel for a whole year, letting me think that you were dead while you're doing all kinds of crazy. Those aren't mistakes, Sam. Those are choices!

IMO, him bringing it up during the list of sins was actually intending to be a joke. Not that Dean was serious about it.

To each their own, but I do have a problem with it. The actions of Souless Sam were in no way the fault of regular Sam. Just like the actions of Demon Dean (who if you’ll remember was quite happy to see Cole kill Sam) were not the fault of regular Dean. IMO you make it sound like Sam in his right mind with all his parts intact did these things rather than a being who was half Sam at Best.

[shang yiet]

So Soulless Sam is responsible for his actions but not coin-influenced Dean? Doesn't seem fair to me. The real Sam (soul and spirit) was suffering down in hell while his body walked the earth. Hardly seems like anything to joke about.

Anyway, Dean's greatest hits is just as long as Sam's greatest hits so hey, it's half a dozen on one hand and six on the other, as the saying goes.

Edited October 18, 2017 by shang yiet

[Wayward Son]

Just now, shang yiet said:

So Soulless Sam is responsible for his actions but not coin-influenced Dean? Doesn't seem fair to me. The real Sam (soul and spirit) was suffering down in hell while his body walked the earth. Hardly seems like anything to joke about.

%

Honestly, I find it super frustrating how Dean fans are unable to just admit he's wrong about something. There's always some excuse that explains why hes the victim and we should feel sorry for him instead. I mean I have my favourites, but at least I'm able to actually admit when they're wrong e.g. it was utterly wrong of Castiel to break Sam's wall back in season six. 

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

To each their own, but I do have a problem with it. The actions of Souless Sam were in no way the fault of regular Sam. Just like the actions of Demon Dean (who if you’ll remember was quite happy to see Cole kill Sam) were not the fault of regular Dean. IMO you make it sound like Sam in his right mind with all his parts intact did these things rather than a being who was half Sam at Best.

Except that's not what Dean was mad about. The coin brought out or escalated hidden resentments. And escalated them to the level of betrayal. Dean himself didn't include Sam's behavior whilst Soulless, and I'm not saying that he did. That was MY wish for Dean.

Dean actually didn't blame Sam for being soulless, he blamed him for lying about it for a year and that he MAY have thought on some level that Sam knew he was soulless but not the fact that he was soulless. There is a difference.

[Bessie]

8 minutes ago, shang yiet said:

So Soulless Sam is responsible for his actions but not coin-influenced Dean? Doesn't seem fair to me. The real Sam (soul and spirit) was suffering down in hell while his body walked the earth. Hardly seems like anything to joke about.

I don't think he was joking. If that's what was intended to come across onscreen, the writers and Ackles performance missed it by a country mile. 

[Wayward Son]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Except that's not what Dean was mad about. The coin brought out or escalated hidden resentments. And escalated them to the level of betrayal. Dean himself didn't include Sam's behavior whilst Soulless, and I'm not saying that he did. That was MY wish for Dean.

Dean actually didn't blame Sam for being soulless, he blamed him for lying about it for a year and that he MAY have thought on some level that Sam knew he was soulless but not the fact that he was soulless. There is a difference.

As I said, if it were just Southern Comfort I'd give Dean a pass as I'm not inclined to hold words/actions of someone under outside influence against them. However, he does refer to these feelings (uninfluenced) in Sacrifice where he does blame Sam for being soulless. He says it clear as day when making 'suggestions' of 'sins' Sam can make at confession.

Quote

DEAN

All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, losing your soul, not looking for me when I went to Purgatory,

He makes it pretty explicit there that yes it is losing his soul he blames Sam for. But we might as well drop the topic because I doubt I'll be able to get any Dean fans to actually admit he's wrong to resent Sam for something that isn't Sam's fault so YMMV. 

[Aeryn13]

Personally I don`t blame Soulless!Sam for what he did or didn`t do it. That doesn`t mean that Sam with a soul is a paragon of purity and that Soulless and him shared nothing but it would be unfair to blame Sam for what a literal part of him did. Same with Demon!Dean, he wasn`t a brand new person but he wasn`t wholly Dean either so it would be unfair to blame Dean for what his demon self did. 

Now I do blame Bobby for not telling Dean about Sam being back. All his "I wanted to give you that" aside, it simply wasn`t his choice to make. If that had been Dean, everyone would have harped on him for being bossy and controlling and not respecting other people if he did that. The show certainly wouldn`t have framed it as some pure "awww" thing like they did with Bobby. So screw that shit, Bobby gets held to the same standards. 

However the coin episode is the one where I was the most annoyed with Sam`s characterization. First that smug comment about how Dean should tell Garth how he got out of Purgatory - with the clear undertone of "haha, that would make you look so bad" (on accounts of a vampire being involved. Like, there wasn`t any part of that story that would make Sam look 100 times worse?

Then of course Mr."is this really a thing, it wasn`t me?" whenever he says truly nasty stuff under the influence holds Dean 100 % responsible for what he said under the influence. I remember how Sam reacted all the times he did it, kind of even annoyed that Dean dared to even be affected by it. Mind you, not blaming Sam or even really wanting to call him on it but being hurt to be called a stupid loser. For someone who takes easy offense with what is said to him, Sam has no trouble verbally trampling over Dean or other people, even being incredulous why they might have a problem with it, too,

And of course the coup de gras at the end. "I told you why I didn`t look from the jump... so get over it or I will". Nope Sam, you explained shit. Not in any meaningful way. The final part was just... I wanted Dean to get in the car and drive off. Not meekly fold there. God, I hated that so much, The worst Season 8!Sam for me by far was in that episode.       

Quote

Honestly, I find it super frustrating how Dean fans are unable to just admit he's wrong about something. 

 I think Dean has been wrong about several things in the span of the show, naturally. And I have no problem calling him out for it. Just, I do not agree that in Season 8 in general he was wrong. To me Sam was wrong there, in a major, obnoxious way. That is different than saying Dean is never wrong. I don`t have to agree he is wrong on everything someone else thinks he is wrong about, though.

Example where Dean IS wrong? The stupid deal in Season 2. 1000 % his fault. Colluding with Gadreel for the possession? Wrong, wrong, wrong.  

Edited October 18, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Then of course Mr."is this really a thing, it wasn`t me?" whenever he says truly nasty stuff under the influence holds Dean 100 % responsible for what he said under the influence.

Not true.  He sometimes does, but not always. The crap demon Dean spewed has never come up. Has the shapeshifter Dean comments been held against him by Sam?  I can't remember, but I don't think so. In fact, I think the coin thing is the only time Sam has been unreasonable about comments Dean has made under the influence. 

[ahrtee]

25 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I find it super frustrating how Dean fans are unable to just admit he's wrong about something. There's always some excuse that explains why hes the victim and we should feel sorry for him instead. I mean I have my favourites, but at least I'm able to actually admit when they're wrong e.g. it was utterly wrong of Castiel to break Sam's wall back in season six. 

Honestly, I wish you'd stop blaming the fans if their opinions differ from yours.  If you want to hate the writing, go ahead.  But what you're asking is for others to say, "yes, you're right about Dean, he is a dick" which, as we know, is NOT what this site is about.  Because TBH I've never seen any Sam fans admit anything like that about him either, no matter what he's done wrong.  There are always excuses/extenuating circumstance if someone is willing to look for them (and that *doesn't* mean that the person is "a victim," just that he *might* have a reason for doing something.  

Just because the other side doesn't agree with the reason doesn't mean anything.  So...Dean or Sam was under the influence of *something*.  Dean/Sam was out of his mind with grief and acting OOC.  Dean/Sam said something he shouldn't because he was very angry.  Dean/Sam did something/killed something that the other one didn't think deserved it, because they thought it needed to be done.  Anything else?  

BUT the point that seems to be triggering thisin this episode  is Dean supposedly accusing Sam of being soulless , and MY point is this: 

21 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Except that's not what Dean was mad about. The coin brought out or escalated hidden resentments. And escalated them to the level of betrayal. Dean himself didn't include Sam's behavior whilst Soulless, and I'm not saying that he did. That was MY wish for Dean.

Dean actually didn't blame Sam for being soulless, he blamed him for lying about it for a year and that he MAY have thought on some level that Sam knew he was soulless but not the fact that he was soulless. There is a difference.

He said that:  "for not telling me that you were soulless," not "for being soulless" (or even for any of the things he *did* while he was soulless...not even for letting him be turned into a vampire.  Especially after all the resentment of the year of lying about working with Ruby (I know, he had a "good excuse") I think Dean has a hot button about being lied to (and yes, I *know* he has also been guilty of it, and he also had a "good excuse").  Just saying that this was Dean's anger ramped up so that betrayal became super important.  And (yes, I'm making excuses) but I always thought it was a dick move *NOT TO TELL HIS GRIEVING BROTHER THAT HE WAS ALIVE FOR A WHOLE YEAR.*  But of course, he had an excuse.  

Edited October 18, 2017 by ahrtee
clarification.

[shang yiet]

How could Sam tell Dean this when his soul was still trapped with Lucifer? Two people didn't tell Dean (Cas and Bobby) but the real Sam who was still trapped below gets the blame? I'm confused.

[trxr4kids]

So for clarification during season 8, Sam was either written OOC or had a mental breakdown we were never shown, Cas's motives/behaviors weren't explained well because the writers either didn't know what to do with him or didn't like him and Dean was (paraphrasing) a judgmental, self righteous, controlling ass because that's the way he is and always has been and always will be. <eye roll>

[Bessie]

9 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

And (yes, I'm making excuses) but I always thought it was a dick move *NOT TO TELL HIS GRIEVING BROTHER THAT HE WAS ALIVE FOR A WHOLE YEAR

Are you blaming sam for this or soulless sam?

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Bessie said:

Are you blaming sam for this or soulless sam?

Soulless Sam was the one who did it, but (shrugs) he had an excuse.  

Point is, I'm not actually "blaming" him, because yes, I actually *do* understand that he had an excuse.  I'm just saying it was a dick move, and that Dean does have the right to be angry, even though *it only came out as anger when he was whammied.*  

Edited October 18, 2017 by ahrtee

[catrox14]

4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Honestly, I find it super frustrating how Dean fans are unable to just admit he's wrong about something. There's always some excuse that explains why hes the victim and we should feel sorry for him instead. I mean I have my favourites, but at least I'm able to actually admit when they're wrong e.g. it was utterly wrong of Castiel to break Sam's wall back in season six. 

I have a POV of Dean actions and I'm voicing that here. I don't care if anyone feels sorry for Dean, likes Dean, loves Dean, hates Dean, thinks he hangs the moon or should rot in Hell for eternity.  If someone doesn't see Dean as I do, that's their prerogative and I'm always interested in the discussion even if we don't agree on things.

I have stated when and where I think Dean is wrong or has fucked up. In this situation, the coin made Dean hold the gun on Sam and threaten to kill him, and at the same time the coin did reveal that Dean was resentful about Sam lying to him for a year which was an actual resentment that Dean held in 6.1 when he read Bobby and Sam the riot act about the same thing. Sounds to me like that still bothered Dean and the coin amped up Dean's emotions about that resentment along with the recent betrayal of Sam leaving him for dead. But I think those were legitimately Dean's resentments.

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Soulless Sam was the one who did it, but (shrugs) he had an excuse.

He didn't need an excuse. He was definitely a dick. 

[catrox14]

26 minutes ago, Bessie said:

I don't think he was joking. If that's what was intended to come across onscreen, the writers and Ackles performance missed it by a country mile. 

I think Ackles DID present it as a a sardonic joke. I never thought Dean meant that at all. And it wasn't meant to be a HAHAHAH funny joke but a sardonic kind of thing. But that's just me because  I don't see the narrative purpose for it being there other than to make Dean look like a real asshole(which I've never denied that he can be an asshole at times) and to woobify Sam even further by having Dean be mean to him before the big "confession" and cryfest. 

For me, it makes more sense as a bad joke that Dean often lets fly with at the wrong time.

[Wayward Son]

14 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

He said that:  "for not telling me that you were soulless," not "for being soulless" (or even for any of the things he *did* while he was soulless...not even for letting him be turned into a vampire.  Especially after all the resentment of the year of lying about working with Ruby (I know, he had a "good excuse") 

And as I pointed out in a previous point when an uninfluenced and 100% Dean brings the subject up again he explicitly states he blames Sam for being soulless.

Quote

DEAN

All right. Well, I'm just spit-balling here, but if I were you, uh... Ruby, killing Lilith, letting Lucifer out, losing your soul, not looking for me when I went to Purgatory,

 

There it is from the mouth of an uninfluenced Dean himself "losing your soul" not "for not telling me that you were soulless". So maybe what you're saying is true, and it is backed by spectre possessed Dean, but what I'm saying is also true and it is explicitly stated by Dean himself. And it is Dean blaming Sam for losing his soul that I consider to be utterly unreasonable. 

 

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Soulless Sam was the one who did it, but (shrugs) he had an excuse.

I'm very curious... Do you consider Dean a dick for the following exchange he made whilst he was a demon?

 

Spoiler

DEAN

No, you listen to me. There's no trade. There's no meet-up. There's no nothing -- except the 100% guarantee that, somewhere down the road, I will find you, and I will kill you.

COLE

Well, that'll be a cold comfort to your dead brother.

DEAN

I told him to let me go. So whatever jam he's in now, that is his problem.

COLE

Yeah, well, I'll be sure to pass that on to him as I'm slitting his throat.

DEAN

Yeah, you do that, 'cause he knows me. And he knows damn sure that if I am one thing, I am a man of my word.

 

I ask because I consider it to be a very similar thing! Sam had no Sam when he spent the year with Samuel without telling Dean, while Demon Dean had a soul, but it was a twisted and corrupted one per the shows canon. For the record I don't blame Dean for this exchange either, but since you blame Sam for his soulless actions I'm just curious do you blame Dean for leaving Sam to die?

[trxr4kids]

SoullessSam was also supposed to be just logic, no emotions. It seems illogical to tell Bobby he was back, pray to Cas for answers but not check in with the one person who has a past history of getting you resurrected. It also seems illogical you wouldn't mention that you don't sleep anymore, since surely that's something that a logical mind would know is worrisome/dangerous. So it seems to me he hid from Dean and then hid things from Dean because he knew he was wrong/messed up and didn't want Dean's interference which sure he was soulless but it's not like he'd never done anything like that before, season 4 perhaps.

[Bessie]

2 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I think Ackles DID present it as a a sardonic joke. I never thought Dean meant that at all. And it wasn't meant to be a HAHAHAH funny joke but a sardonic kind of thing. But that's just me because  I don't see the narrative purpose for it being there other than to make Dean look like a real asshole(which I've never denied that he can be an asshole at times) and to woobify Sam even further by having Dean be mean to him before the big "confession" and cryfest. 

Gotcha. I still don't think it was meant sardonically, but I thought every word out of Dean's mouth was mean-spirited and meant to hurt. I hated that scene and wish it had never been written. 

[Wayward Son]

29 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

Personally I don`t blame Soulless!Sam for what he did or didn`t do it. That doesn`t mean that Sam with a soul is a paragon of purity and that Soulless and him shared nothing but it would be unfair to blame Sam for what a literal part of him did. Same with Demon!Dean, he wasn`t a brand new person but he wasn`t wholly Dean either so it would be unfair to blame Dean for what his demon self did. 

I agree on this. I don't blame Dean for the things he did as a demon just as I don't blame Sam for the things he did while he was soulless.

 

Quote

Then of course Mr."is this really a thing, it wasn`t me?" whenever he says truly nasty stuff under the influence holds Dean 100 % responsible for what he said under the influence. I remember how Sam reacted all the times he did it, kind of even annoyed that Dean dared to even be affected by it. Mind you, not blaming Sam or even really wanting to call him on it but being hurt to be called a stupid loser. For someone who takes easy offense with what is said to him, Sam has no trouble verbally trampling over Dean or other people, even being incredulous why they might have a problem with it, too,

I would have to disagree with you there. Yes, there have been occasions such as this one where Sam has unfairly called Dean out on the things he said while under the spectre's influence. However, as far as I know, he has never called Dean out on the things he said while he was a demon nor did he comment on the remarks made by a shapeshifter who was drawing on the thoughts and feelings of Dean. I'll need to try and look through transcripts to confirm this, but I'm like 70% certain there have been occasions where Dean too has held stuff against Sam. I'm not sure if this counts, and if it doesn't I can try to find another example, but for instance he held the memories in Sam's heaven against him even though Sam had no control over which memories were displayed.