S12.E13: Family Feud

[ZennyKenny]

I couldn't dissect why if you asked me, but I was soooo bored with this episode. I feel like I shouldn't have been. It did a good job of advancing many plots. Lucifer, Lucifer's child & the mom, Crowley & Rowena, mama Winchester... so much was addressed. But... I just didn't CARE.

[Mick Lady]

36 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

But if there's anything Crowley enjoys and will even work with an enemy for, it's revenge. He even went in with Dean and Sam to get revenge on Dick Roman for refusing his baby uvula muffins  and saying he'd rather swim through hot garbage than work with Crowley. I can just imagine how long Crowley's been waiting to get Lucifer back for what he did to him.

I'd forgotten this, I swear Awesomo, do you live to creep me out?!

I loved this episode! Sort of a bottle, but did advance the storyline. Dabb does hate Sam and Dean, but he held himself back here.

I've become a HUGH Rowena fan, and I'm glad they're using her more. I'm glad to see Mark back. If they're going to shove Lucifer down our throat, at least be it with him.

Going to rewatch, and will post more after.

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, ZennyKenny said:

I couldn't dissect why if you asked me, but I was soooo bored with this episode. I feel like I shouldn't have been. It did a good job of advancing many plots. Lucifer, Lucifer's child & the mom, Crowley & Rowena, mama Winchester... so much was addressed. But... I just didn't CARE.

This is how I reacted. It had no emotional depth.  Maybe because Crowley and Rowena's heel turn wasn't setup to give the emotional impact.  I don't care about Gavin so I didn't care that he was killed off.  It's not like this was Kevin Tran or Charlie.  Gavin was in ONE stinking episode.  He was barely referred to for 3 seasons...so like, I just don't care.

I'm pretty sure this is just a plot device.  EVERYTHING in this episode was PLOT PLOT PLOTTY MCPLOT.  And I don't  care.

I'm sick of the Lucifer SL. I'm sick of the devil baby mama drama ALREADY. 

And the closing scene with the Winchesters should have been much more punch in the gut but instead of letting us hear and see Mary and the boys argue, it gets shoved into a montage.  Bleh.

Edited February 24, 2017 by catrox14

[ILoveReading]

12 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

And the closing scene with the Winchesters should have been much more punch in the gut but instead of letting us hear and see Mary and the boys argue, it gets shoved into a montage.  Bleh.

 

Most likely this was done as a way to gloss over Mary's actions and have to avoid coming up with reasons why Sam and Dean would agree to actually follow her lead.   Most likely they'll just skip over this.

[rue721]

31 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

There's also the question I myself keep screaming at the writers to address: if the BMOL are as competent as they appear to be and even remotely on the side of the good, why have they apparently stood back and let several possible apocalypses happened?

That's true, and IMO even the way they've conducted themselves within this season makes them seem at best pretty incompetent, too. Sam's torture, for instance. What was the point of that? Even their cover story about some agent going rogue and roaming the countryside picking up Winchesters makes the organization sound like a mess. Asking that Mary get the Colt for them instead of doing it themselves also makes them look bad. That she had to rely on her buddies and sons in order to get it, and apparently wasn't given any of the BMOL's supplies or people to help her makes them look worse.

What really bothers me is Mr K's windowpane transparent attempt to pitch Mary. He's clearly telling her whatever he thinks she wants to hear. He was laying it on so thick with the "you're the best hunter eva!" thing that I'm like, "OK, now you're just fucking around and having a private laugh at her expense, Mr. K."

And they're having Mary scoff and stuff like she consciously realizes he's being ridiculous, but then she treats what he says like the truth anyway. Le sigh.

31 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

"Lady Toni and a few henchman tortured Sam." Mary isn't working with Lady Toni, and there is no solid evidence (that the Winchesters are privy to) against Ketch's claim that she was a rogue agent who has been disciplined for what she did.

They have no evidence that she actually is rogue, either. And Mr K is very motivated to say that she was a bad apple that has since been thrown out, so his word about the subject can't be trusted at all. It also seems pretty unlikely that this quasi-military organization has rogue torturers running around unchecked without them realizing it -- and if they DO, then that speaks just as poorly of them. So I actually think that Toni's torture of Sam is a pretty good argument.

Also, just on an emotional level, what kind of person works with the organization who tortured her son -- who she SAW being tortured? How is she OK with doing that? I just can't get over that.

When I was a kid, one of the neighborhood "thugs" stole my cat and used their dogs to kill her. I can tell you right now that I would NEVER EVER EVER have trusted any of those guys as far as I could throw them after that. There's just some things that you hold grudges for -- and IMO that you SHOULD hold grudges for, because "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me..." So I think Mary is a fool to just let Sam's torture slip by as though it teaches her nothing about the people she's dealing with.

20 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

You know for a show that made a ghost seek vengeance for being sexually assaulted, it sure did conveniently blow right past LadyFuckOffandDie's mind rape of Sam.  These writers just need to knock this shit off if they aren't going to treat it properly.

What I think is dumb is the idea that Gavin being there will make her invulnerable. As though having a man means safety.

If these people made her life a living hell on that ship, what are the odds that things will be OK if they're together? I mean jeez, someone on the ship might just throw Gavin overboard and do the exact same things to Fiona as happened to her before.

It would be kind of hilarious if they'd sent Gavin back, and he'd died unhappily as well as Fiona, and they both showed up as ghosts in the "corrected" timeline.

But anyway, I was really sad that he just marched off to death. Why not bring Fiona into the future, too? So that she never dies on the ship and they can be happy together in 2017? I was hoping for a happy ending for both of them, but alas. Although I guess in theory, Crowley maybe could just go back and kidnap them both and play happy families with them in 2017 anyway. So maybe there can still be a happy ending? ;)

[SueB]

Wow.  So MUCH in one episode.  Which is both good and bad.  Standard pacing for a B-L episode (which is not a compliment). Even though I complain about those two, I'm STILL convinced that they are GIVEN the task: we need to get from point A to point B -- make an episode that does that.  So the task this episode was:
- Play with the family parallels: Winchesters, Macleod's, Luci's
- Have Rowena get her revenge, further isolate Crowley
- Get Luci back in Nick's meatsuit
"GO"

And this is what they came up with. So, here's my quick: The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly summary from my first watch

The Good:
1) Mary comes clean to Sam and Dean. Dean's "face" was the PERFECT face.  In that one look it says "I knew it", "she betrayed us", "why did I ever expect anything good".  WELL DONE Mr. Ackles!  And Sam's face and words were so painful.  As he mentions broken ribs and burnt feet.... as if maybe Mary forgot that he was TORTURED by them.  It was almost childlike as he listed all the reasons why his heart was breaking without saying that.  And Jared did an excellent job of portraying that pain.  WELL DONE Mr. Padalecki! And finally, Mary KNEW she was in for it. I'm glad she pressed ahead.  When Mr. Ketch was taunting her, I think that's when he overplayed his hand.  So... VERY GLAD she came clean. VERY glad the boys were so hurt and expressed it.  And yes, I'm certain they will give her the benefit of the doubt because she is Mom.  Dean has clearly been holding back for this moment -- for the "other shoe".  But I don't think it's over yet. Sam, was completely surprised and gutted.  OUCH.
2) Rowena - you E-VOL witch.  That was a magnificent turn by Rowena regarding Oscar.  I really didn't expect her to do that.  And I think she's got the Winchesters slightly fooled.  Perhaps some part of her found it easier to carry out the revenge with Gavin so willing... but WOW, that was COLD.  Suddenly the phrase "colder than a witches...." has real meaning. Their final scene together was pretty outstanding.  
3) Crowley KNOWING Rowena's game.  If there's anything he understands -- it's the double cross.  As he told Casifer last year, Luci may have invented the doublecross but Crowley perfected it.  So... good on him.
4) Dammit.  I feel REALLY BAD for Crowley.  I mean he was totally stupid to give Luci a permanent meatsuit and not put him back into the cage, but .... the Winchester did him wrong. Again.  If that was Cas' son (if he had a son... work with me...), they would have found another way.  As they are fond of saying "there's always another way." But Gavin was willing and they literally don't give a shit about Crowley ... so "meh", a 'neat' wrap up to an on-going problem.  BUT THIS WAS A MISTAKE.  As Meg told them in S7, "Don't you get it, Crowley is ALWAYS the problem."  They've created some serious emnity here in the last two episodes.  This is well set-up for a massive fall-out.  It's going to be brutal.  And I will actually CARE about what happens.  So, well done on creating a conflict that is both semi-believable and ultimately going to be painful.
5) "Playing With Fire" was f*cking perfect.  And yes, that was Mick Jagger and the original rolling stones.  I'm sure the re-use once they had the rights was cheaper (if not free).  To me it told the story VERY well.  Crowley is playing with fire with Lucifer, Mary is playing with fire with BMoL, and Kellie continues to play with fire by having the Devil's spawn.
6) Dagon was a good add.  I liked her funky hair and her true believer attitude.  Reminded me of Casey from Sin City.  She may have gotten bored with following The Morning Star, but she sees demons as the heroes of their own story.  Or at least she's selling that to Kellie very well.  

The Bad:
1) I bet Mark Sheppard wants to send those writers a basket of rotten fruit.  I mean it was good that they attempted to close all the lore loop-holes (and I'm giving 100% credit to Andrew Dabb editing that in, no way does B-L actually attempt to close plot holes), but that initial exposition scene was just torture.  It was a data dump for 3 mins.  Pseudo plausible but clearly "how to get to the story I want to tell" in 6 easy leaps.  The special God-material of the cage was probably the worst bit.  I was actually glad that we now have an explanation why the weird egg-thing didn't look like it did the job properly during LOTUS..  And I'm okay with him resurrecting Nick's meatsuit.  I'm not sure whose soul he used to power that up because demons generally need a human soul for that level of power --- but I'll take it.  So...the first part of what was bad was the 3 mins of exposition.  Mark did the best he could with it. I appreciate that it's done. It just was clunky to watch.
2) That Crowley would be SO STUPID as to keep Luci around.  Dumb Dumb Dumb.  MUCH worse than keeping the baby around.  So, Crowley's need for revenge is likely to be his undoing.
3) The choppiness of the episode.  As usual, 10lbs in a 5lb sack.  I get the theme was screwed up families, but the pacing of the ghost story was weird.  I appreciate the director did a good job eliciting the fright-jump (hands from the bed)... but that didn't work well, IMO, with the two other plots.  It felt mashed together.
4) Gavin giving up his life so easily and the Winchesters suggesting it.  That was not cool.  They took advantage of Gavin IMO.  He WAS a good man after all.  And they made it seem like a "Rose and Jack final ghost ending (from Titanic)" and I'm all NOPE.  Mostly because Winchesters usually fight for good people more than that.  And they didn't.  They should have melted the locket.  If THAT didn't work, then maybe go with sending Gavin back.  But they didn't even try.  Makes me mad.
5) An extra pinch of salt from Rowena and time-travel is that easy?  NOPE.  Please feel free to forget that lore-abuse.  Some credit for using the same spell words (again, I'll bet money that was Dabb or Berens... no way do B-L bother to look that up).

The Ugly:
1) I felt like Ketch was saying Mary was a psychopath, just like him.  And I wanted to take a shower.  Is this his version of hitting on her?  Thank goodness she ran away.  I was TERRIFIED that he was going to do his version of "woe" her ... with a drink and talk of the joys of efficient killing.  If the intent was for me to find Mr. Ketch repulsive, they did a good job (and it's entirely possible that WAS their intent).  But it was still fugly to watch.  *shudders*
2) Melting the brains of Rugaru's.  NOPE.  Mary, you don't torture the monsters.  They are killing innocents and you get to kill them, but you don't torture them.  I did NOT like her using that gun. It was like a magnifying glass on an ant.  Cruel.  
3)  Rowena got on a bus.  An actual bus.  NOPE.  Girl rides in style, not on a bus.  Do better. I think they had the bus for Gavin's scene and just reused it.  Mr. Director -- do better, know your characters.  She wouldn't get on a smelly bus.  At least not in my opinion.

 

I'll rewatch tomorrow, mostly for those final 5 minutes to be honest, to see what else I glean.  This was content-rich with much implication for future episodes.  It got us from Point A to Point B with some clunky bits that were sprinkled with some shining moments IMO.

Edited February 24, 2017 by SueB

[catrox14]

15 minutes ago, rue721 said:

What I think is dumb is the idea that Gavin being there will make her invulnerable. As though having a man means safety.

Well, theorectically back then having a male companion would give her more protection.  Times were different.

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Well, theorectically back then having a male companion would give her more protection.  Times were different.

I'm saying Gavin himself is super vulnerable. He's so doofy. I actually really liked him, but if the people on that ship were as bad as they sounded like, I don't think he'd be much of a match for them either!

[ZennyKenny]

34 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I'm sick of the Lucifer SL. I'm sick of the devil baby mama drama ALREADY.

Watching Riverdale and realizing that I am WAY more invested in Archie's struggle to choose between a football career and a music career made me understand what my problem with SPN is; they don't know how to communicate the stakes.

We're supposed to just assume that the Devil's child = bad, but they haven't been specific enough for me to feel the weight of the threat. Especially since we already have an Antichrist in the world and apparently there's no problem there.

Another problem is that they've mixed & matched their good guys and bad guys so much that I don't even know what to feel about any of them. I was rooting for the demon to kill the angels and protect that pregnant woman.  When I step back and examine that, I wonder if that was the intent of the writers. I mean... I shouldn't be cheering on a demon, should I?

 

 

And the closing scene with the Winchesters should have been much more punch in the gut but instead of letting us hear and see Mary and the boys argue, it gets shoved into a montage.  Bleh.

Yeah, as far as the film theory's "Show, don't tell" rule, that felt really cheaty. Like yeah TECHNICALLY they were showing, but no not really. Again going back to Riverdale (sorry I am HOOKED on this show now), a major plot point of the episode was a character being forbidden to speak at her brother's funeral. The show had a way of reminding you of this by having her communicate it with a friend, hinting that she had plans on speaking anyway, and making it clear that she knew perfectly well that there would be consequences. It EMPHASIZED the stakes. Because of that, when it finally happened, the scene was filled with dread and tension. And when the inevitable aftermath came, it hit hard.

THAT'S what SHOULD have happened between Mary & the boys. They never stated the stakes, other than Sam & Dean wouldn't like it. But so what? That's not a real consequence; they do things all the time that eachother doesn't like. It's not like the BMoL guy threatened to stop teaching Mary or force her to stop seeing her kids, so there wasn't any consequence there, either. I mean for God sakes the montage didn't even show what the outcome was, did it? Unless I missed something.

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, auntvi said:

It sounded like Mick Jagger to me. Maybe the Stones catalog isn't doing so well anymore?

This completely intrigues me.  The Stones completely screwed over "The Verve" when it was revealed they sampled one of their songs for "Bittersweet Symphony." 

But a great story was when a former Rolling Stone manager waived a $150,000 licensing fee for a song for the Coen brothers' "The Big Lebowski" because he loved the line about how the Dude hated The Eagles.  The song was "Dead Flowers."  I never even heard of that song - and it still would have cost the Coens $150,000.  I know its been 20 years, but I don't know....

I think in this case it depends on which super conglomerate owns the rights and owns the show.  Even with the TNT repeats  great songs are still heard.  I know that the cost for the music rights prevented WKRP from reusing music in repeats that was played during the 1st airings.

[Commando Cody]

This episode just kind of lied there. I don't even have any thoughts on it positive or negative. It's like it didn't exist. 

[Mick Lady]

Quick question; Didn't Crowley say of his son, "I can't stand the little bastard"? Why did he even care that Gavin was willing to die?

[catrox14]

I did like the "Oh, my Dad" line from Lucifer in reference to Guck. That did give me a chuckle.

I think Dean was wearing a new tie and jacket. I don't remember a grey striped tie. 

Sam looked hot in that light blue shirt. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by catrox14

[catrox14]

Oh....and so a Prince(ss) of Hell can just punch a regular angel(seraphim?) and kill it.

So that means that Princes of Hell are more powerful than angels like Castiel. But are they more powerful than an archangel or are the equal to Archangels?

[Macbeth]

58 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I did like the "Oh, my Dad" line from Lucifer in reference to Guck. That did give me a chuckle.

I think Dean was wearing a new tie and jacket. I don't remember a grey striped tie. 

Sam looked hot in that light blue shirt. 

Oh Catrox14 I do appreciate how you are talking yourself into finding something redeeming about the episode.  The J2 s are very good on giving us the pretty.  When all else fails.

[catrox14]

So why the hell was Dean so emotional in that farewell scene with Gavin. I mean it's not like it was someone he knew. That was weird.  "This one is hard" WTF? Was that even about? So weird.

[Casseiopeia]

Wow!  That was just awful.  Even for the Duo that was bad.  The editing woes continue for this season.  A whole bunch of stuff happened but nothing was accomplished.  Why would Crowley keep Nick around for Lucifer to possess?  Mary is the best Hunter in all the land?  Did Jared and Jensen even need to be in this episode?  We are at episode 14 now.   What is this season supposed to be about?  Last week laid out so many great threads for the season to move forward.  Tonight we get a lame ghost story, Rowena's revenge, Crowley doing whatever it is he is doing and Wonder Woman Mary being hit on by Mr. Gadget.  Ugh.

[Commando Cody]

I can't remember who the the terrible duo is, but they sound like Steven Moffat and his pursuit to make every shitty decision possible in the time he was given as show runner to Doctor Who. Only the opposite. Moffat wrote some great episodes. He was a terrible show runner. 

[Casseiopeia]

4 minutes ago, Commando Cody said:

I can't remember who the the terrible duo is, but they sound like Steven Moffat and his pursuit to make every shitty decision possible in the time he was given as show runner to Doctor Who. Only the opposite. Moffat wrote some great episodes. He was a terrible show runner. 

One half of the writing team that brought us this mess is Eugenie Ross-Leming.  She is married to Robert Singer co-showrunner this season.  Rumor is that no one gets to edit her scripts.  They have written some of the worst episodes of the entire series starting with Monster Racist Truck ep Route 666.  I think she is the reason for the Babifer story this season as well.  

[voskat]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

So why the hell was Dean so emotional in that farewell scene with Gavin. I mean it's not like it was someone he knew. That was weird.  "This one is hard" WTF? Was that even about? So weird.

Dean doesn't normally much enjoy killing completely innocent people.

[Commando Cody]

Route 666 was terrible. Hard to believe they're still married after that episode. 

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, SueB said:

 Mostly because Winchesters usually fight for good people more than that.  And they didn't.  They should have melted the locket.  If THAT didn't work, then maybe go with sending Gavin back.  But they didn't even try.  Makes me mad.

Except that melting the locket wouldn't have brought back the teachers who were killed or prevented what happened to Gavin's girlfriend. Gavin felt badly about both of those things, and I believe that he was the one who brought up wishing that there was something they could do to fix that the innocent teachers had been killed - though without a rewatch, I don't remember exactly how he put this. I do remember though that that was why Sam and Dean came up with the plan to send him back - because Gavin wanted to save the teachers. And his girlfriend. He loved her and didn't want what happened to her either. So Gavin decided that going back would fix both what happened to her and save the teachers, and since the teachers didn't end up dying (Sam checked the news for their names), Gavin did save them. So yes, they didn't try to save Gavin, but they also didn't take away his choice to sacrifice himself to save other innocent people. Kind of an interesting twist on the Nancy the virgin dilemma, except this time they let Gavin sacrifice himself to save the others.

[Wayward Son]

I will reply (or edit this post if no one else replies between now and then) with my thoughts later, but here's a quick few answer to things others have mentioned.

 

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So how long before the Nick meatsuit starts to fall apart and Lucifer seeks out Sam as his vessel?

Crowley's exact words to Lucifer were; 

"We found your discarded vessel a few years ago! We prepared it, improved it, making it a final home for the real you". 

For me the combination of mentioning the vessel had been improved and was designed to be his 'final home' implied that the improvements made to Nick would allow him to host Lucifer indefinitely.

I don't think the writers seem interested in exploring Sam (or Dean) as the true vessels this season and this was a way to bring Mark back long term.

9 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Improved but not forever I wouldn't think .

I had to laugh at Ketch saying "You're the best hunter I've ever seen". So I guess that means Mary is the best hunter in the Winchester clan now? Whatever, Mr. Ketch. 

Actually Ketch describes her as "one of the best I've ever seen". He doesn't describe her as "the best" just simply one of the better ones he has seen to date. So he isn't putting her above the brothers and belittling their skills. Plus there's the fact he is clearly trying to woo her away from the brothers so his words should be taken with a pinch of salt. 

Overall, the idea of Mary being a good hunter actually makes sense to me. We know from In the Beginning she was raised in the life just like the brothers were. In some ways I think she is almost like early season one Sam. The reluctant hunter who is still good at what he does because that's what he was raised in. 

Of course that's as far as the parallel goes. Sam has always displayed a stronger family loyalty than Mary thus far. 

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

I'm also not convinced of the logic in terms of the timeline; Gavin has been a part of the twenty-first century world for a while now, so retroactively returning him to his original timeline seems likely to do as much potential harm as good. They may have restored the timeline relative to the eighteenth century, but they've just distorted the timeline relative to 2017, or whatever year it is supposed to be in the SPN-verse. It isn't as if there was ever a version of 2016 that didn't include Gavin.

My take on things was that they were going to send him directly on to the ship so he can be with Fiona. If that is the case it wouldn't distort the timeline at all because the sequence of events would go a) Abbadon kidnaps Gavin before he is due to go on that ship, b) he spends time in the present before c) returning to the past on the ship where he dies as he is meant to. 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Oh....and so a Prince(ss) of Hell can just punch a regular angel(seraphim?) and kill it.

So that means that Princes of Hell are more powerful than angels like Castiel. But are they more powerful than an archangel or are the equal to Archangels?

I thought the fact Ramiel had effortlessly beaten the crap out of Cas last episode (and that was before using the Lance of Michael) was meant to show us they are more powerful by all but the most powerful of angels. 

Edited February 24, 2017 by Wayward Son

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, companionenvy said:

1. Whether or not Gavin should have been pulled from his timeline originally,  now that he's here I think he has as much right to life as anyone else. So, while I would have been fine with Gavin on his own realizing that his sacrifice was necessary, I didn't like the ease with which Sam and Dean accepted (and, in fact, proposed) that as a viable solution. Sure, in purely utilitarian terms, Gavin dying was the better outcome, but the Winchesters aren't normally in the business of asking innocents to die for the greater good. I'm also not convinced of the logic in terms of the timeline; Gavin has been a part of the twenty-first century world for a while now, so retroactively returning him to his original timeline seems likely to do as much potential harm as good. They may have restored the timeline relative to the eighteenth century, but they've just distorted the timeline relative to 2017, or whatever year it is supposed to be in the SPN-verse. It isn't as if there was ever a version of 2016 that didn't include Gavin.

Gavin going back in time now, didn't erase the fact that he was in 2016.  Whatever he did in 2016 happened.  But, he absolutely had to go back so that Weekend at Bobby's could happen.  What bothered me is that, even though Gavin would have existed the time between King of the Damned and now, what Fiona did didn't exist.  So, Sam and Dean should not have remembered that case at all.  I would have loved a "wait, why did we send Gavin back to die?" or something.  And, things like that are exactly why I hate time travel.  But, now that Gavin has gone back and the timeline has been set straight, maybe we can not have anymore.

[Katy M]

8 hours ago, rue721 said:

What I think is dumb is the idea that Gavin being there will make her invulnerable. As though having a man means safety.

If these people made her life a living hell on that ship, what are the odds that things will be OK if they're together? I mean jeez, someone on the ship might just throw Gavin overboard and do the exact same things to Fiona as happened to her before.

They were doing those that to her because she was a woman travelling alone.  You just didn't do that back then.  So, yes, they probably will leave her alone if Gavin is there.

 

5 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So why the hell was Dean so emotional in that farewell scene with Gavin. I mean it's not like it was someone he knew. That was weird.  "This one is hard" WTF? Was that even about? So weird.

Because they were killing a nice guy.  Sam and dean try to be in the business of saving people.  Not killing them.

[catrox14]

4 hours ago, voskat said:

Dean doesn't normally much enjoy killing completely innocent people.

No, he doesn't, but Dean didn't kill Gavin and neither did Sam. They didn't put a gun to his and make him do it. The boys didn't take him out of his own timeline and not put him back originally, that was Abaddon. Crowley should have put him back and he would have died on that ship as he was supposed to. 

If Gavin had been someone that Dean and Sam were close with I could understand playing that scene as emotionally as it was.  I can't even put it on Jensen for overacting because it's starts with the  line. "This is a tough one" (not this one is hard, my mistake)  Once that line is written, the actor has to play it emotionally on some level and that comes off as overwrought for a character that they didn't really know.  YMMV

Edited February 24, 2017 by catrox14

[Aeryn13]

Well, as I figured, boring but mostly inoffensive. Normally, I`d be onboard with that but you know, super-boring. Juggling lots of storylines still doesn`t help if I`m not interested in a single one.

Too bad fpr Gavin, he truly was a nice guy.

Oh, "princes of hell" can now punch out angels? I highly doubt the same could go for archangels because one of them made him. Shouldn`t have more power than your own creator.

Speaking of, so much contrivance just to keep Lucifer around. And with a lot of exposition blabber explain why he doesn`t need to go vessel-hopping anymore. I had to laugh so hard about the demons studying the cage on a "molecular level". I thought the key ingredient that God made it, not that he used, I don`t know, the right mixture of led, kryptonite and unobtanium. This is not a sciency show, this is a "magic is real" show.

Will have to agree with Lucy, though, how the hell does Crowley expect this to end? Obviously something will fail in the end and Lucifer will be free again. Crowley really is a brain-trust here. As if having him back in the Cage wouldn`t be a great revenge.

The ghost story was super short and yeesh, gang rape on a ship. Trust the Duo to make things horrible.      

The first scene with Mary was a weird mixture of Sue-ing her up and showing how pathetic she is, performing like a trained little lab rat for her master with the stopwatch. And then he kisses her ass so much, it gave me second-hand-embarassment to watch. Yet the most bold-faced lie comes when he accuses her of being too soft with her kids. And she needs to "disengage" herself from them. Like some MORE? She hardly ever sees them and she has no way, shape or form shown mommy softness to them. This was such a ludicrous statement even from the BMOL.

Then she goes to the brothers to sell her new masters like a good little cultist. Even Sam was like "what fuckery is this?" Dean didn`t really get too many lines there but his face said it all. Which, btw, I hated the "don`t give me that face" from Mary. Maybe all the asskissing from the BMOL got to her head and she thinks she is entitled to nothing but validation and praise. Screw her. Dean had more than enough to right to look upset. If her defensive, bitchy self can`t take it, then leave.

Rowena and Crowley are just so nasty with each other, their scenes hold no entertainment value for me.

[Katy M]

17 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I had to laugh so hard about the demons studying the cage on a "molecular level".

I also thought the demons didn't know where it was/couldn't get to it.  Azazel spent years or centuries, trying to find a way to speak with Lucifer.

[Aeryn13]

Crowley also spend a year trying to find a way to Purgatory when he had a backdoor in his own yard AND he knew how to get to Reapers to open it. When you have noone to oversee things like that, you always end up with lol!canon.

[Wayward Son]

So that episode earned the response I expected i.e. ‘meh’ with the exception of a few scenes. However since the episode managed to avoid earning my ire (a rarity for a Buckner and Lemming-Ross episode) and I was never going to be overly interested in an episode that focused on Crowley and his family, I’ll consider it a win overall. Since I didn’t particularly care for this episode, and it covered so many different dangling plots I find it practically impossible to consider anything in detail, I’m just going to write some thoughts that occurred to me while I watched it. 

1. Yay, we got a Castiel reference! I went into the episode expecting to create a head canon, which explained his absence as being due to a need to rest up after being attacked by the Lance of Michael last week, so the reference was a nice surprise. I assume based on Castiel’s return to the road, the emphasis on how long it has been since Mary last saw the boys, and Kelly’s heavily pregnant looking appearance that several months have passed between episodes? 

2. Mary had no reason to lie to the boys about what she was doing during her battle with the Rugaru. I get that she doesn’t want them to know about her alliance with the British Man of Letters, but they know she has been hunting. All she had to do was say she couldn’t join them as she had a hunt of her own. Therefore, this scene highlights that lying has become so deeply engraved Mary now finds it easier than telling the truth. This makes sense in the overall context of her life. After all, she spent her entire marriage to John lying about hunting and I imagine she did the same with any friends she had growing up. 

3. The dump of information about how Lucifer got captured by Crowley was boring and overly reliant on exposition. In terms of character development this is a clear example of how Crowley has begun to allow the humanity he regained during the ritual in Sacrifice to cloud his judgment. Crowley has always been portrayed as a pragmatist who has managed to stay alive due to his cunning. His actions in this episode were anything but cunning. He is clearly driven by his hurt pride and need for revenge. If he were thinking rationally he would quickly realise there is no way this won’t end badly for him.

4. It took five episodes, but they’ve finally reintroduced Kelly back into the game by having her discovered by angels and saved by the Princess of Hell Dagon. However, I have to ask; why do the writers have to insist on making Castiel so incompetent looking this season? First, there was his inability to cope with a simple vampire hunt, a hunt any half decent hunter could have dealt with, during First Blood and now he is a failure at tracking down a human woman. On the other hand, the episode doesn’t specify how the angels found Kelly. It could be that they stumbled on to her by chance and she is being protected by Dagon from supernatural means of tracking. Honestly, I think it’s more likely to show Castiel’s incompetence, but I live in hope the whole thing was a fluke and in no way a comment on his competency. 

5. Beyond that, I thought the episode handled the introduction of Dagon in an interesting manner. Honestly, prior to her appearance, I thought for a moment the show was going to go down the Charmed route and make the unborn child possess powers in the womb that would save her and the baby. So far Dagon’s behaviour has made her a more compelling than her ‘bad guy’ sibling Ramiel. She appears to be a smarter and more cunning villain who relies on charisma and a compelling rhetoric to bend others to her will as opposed to brute force. Even though I knew she was manipulating Kelly, I found myself agreeing with several of the points she made. For instance she is right about the fact that there is no black and white in the world of Supernatural. Angels have committed atrocious actions in the name of their greater good and demons have helped save the world on occasion. Dagon managed to bend Kelly to her will through the perfect combination of telling certain truths, soothing her fears about the destiny of her child, and promising the safety Kelly desperately needs. This makes her a more dangerous enemy than most in my opinion.

However, there is one minor canon inconsistency that irked me. Back in On the Head of a Pin, when Alastair broke after Sam’s demonic power torture, he stated the following (in regards to the murder of angels); “Lilith is not behind this. She wouldn't kill seven angels. Oh, she'd kill a hundred, a thousand.” This quote makes it explicitly clear that even the highest ranking of demons are incapable of killing an angel without the aid of a tool such as an angel blade. Yet here we have Dagon effortlessly kill one with a wave of her hand. I shouldn’t be surprised, since this episode was written by the people who wrote Taxi Driver, but it is disappointing nonetheless. Then again the show has reduced angels from near impossible to kill warriors to beings easily murdered by a group of homeless people. 

6. I found the second scene between Mary and Mr. Ketch one of the most interesting scenes in the episode. Could it be that his words cut to the root of Mary’s feelings? Even if not in the manner he intended.  It would make sense for Mary to feel a certain amount of trepidation and fear when it comes to assuming a proper role in the life of Sam and Dean. It is one thing to be a mother to a four year old and an infant and quite another to assume that role with two grown men. Especially when Mary has the experiences of someone in their early thirties herself. I think it would be quite natural for her to develop a fear that she isn’t good enough, that she can’t be what Sam and Dean need her to be. This could explain why she has slipped back into the familiar world of hunting. She has convinced herself it is the only thing she is capable of doing. It could also explain why she has opted to remain emotionally distant from the boys. It is better to keep herself distant and be a disappointment to them than open herself emotionally and be rejected. 

Of course this is all still speculation on my part, but I’m glad this scene helped me to start considering things from Mary’s point of view. Something I struggled with after last week.

7. The Crowley and Rowena scenes this week were true to the characters, which I am glad about. I was pleased to discover that Rowena’s decision to back Gavin had corrupt motivations. While Remembering Dean laid the groundwork for her to one day become a better person it is far too early for her to suddenly start playing the doting grand mother to a boy she barely knows. The call back to Oscar’s murder was also a surprisingly good display of continuity between episodes. 

8. The final scene between the three Winchesters was wonderfully acted by Jared and Jensen. As always Jensen perfectly portrayed Dean's feelings of anger, betrayal and incredulity over her behaviour. He even added the extra dimension of Dean's hurt at his memories of Sam's torture at just the right moment. Jared likewise managed to convey similar feelings of Sam and maintained the perfect tone of disappointment as he spoke of his reasons for distrusting them. Also, can I squee over the fact that Sam's torture actually got acknowledged here rather then brushed over? I am also feeling warmer towards Mary now that Mr. Ketch's questioning of her motives led her to realise that she needed to tell the boys the truth and be held accountable for her actions. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[ILoveReading]

The most I can say about this is that it was exceedingly dull.    Typical B/L episode with too much packed into one episode so that every storyline was under played and rushed.

There were things I liked.

Smart Dean FTW.  I love when he' allowed to show case his intelligence.  Knowing the knife was Aztec and remembering the name of The Ship.  Dean really seems to have a good memory for details.  Since I had to find things in this ep to amuse me, its my head canon that Dean looking around while holding the knife was him trying to see if he could pocket it.

Dean seeing right through Mary's lies.  I had a good chuckle when Ketch told Mary how good a liar she was because I had seen the sneak peek and knew that Dean had seen right through them.  Ha.  No Mary, not so much.   Dean's spot on instincts are one of my favorite traits about him.  I really hope they don't strip this from Dean at some point in the season.

Dean continuing to keep Mary at arm's length.  The shade he through at Mary about how it was a long..long...long... (many longs) time since she had been back to the bunker.  And "The Face"  So many emotions.  Hurt, distrust, anger, upset and betrayal.  Well done Ackles.  He had been waiting for the other shoe to drop with the whole Mary thing and it finally did.  I hope the show doesn't drop this and allows Dean to continue to be upset with Mary's actions.

I liked Gavin and that show made him a good guy.  We never saw any consequences about Gavin coming forward in time.  I'd be shocked if there was any from him going back.  

Dislike-

Lucifer.  I'm tired of my favorite characters being made to look like morons just to justify his presence.   Because we all know he's going to escape (not a spoiler, just stating the obvious).  I felt so bad for Mark S. having to deliver those painfully bad line.  Why would you want to give a powerful arch angel a permanent vessel?  Why would Crowley dig up his old meat suit?  It was a poor excuse just because the show wanted Mark P back.

This might be more unpopular opinion territory but I don't like Mark P's Lucifer, or SPN's for that matter. Tom Ellis on Fox, ruined any other portrayal for me.     I think he's a whiny brat who someone (Dean, after all we need balance and its only fair since Sam got to do it twice) needs to stab.  But with the permanent vessel, we're never getting rid of him, I fear.  He;s just not scary anymore.   There is no where left to take the character.

Do the writers really feel they are writing a loving relationship between Mary and the brothers?  My first thought when Ketch told her to disconnect was, if she did that anymore she might as well go back to Heaven  Nothing comes before her boys.  At least i had a good chuckle.  I guess Mary forgot that she just but HMSS ahead of her boys just last week.  Ketch is playing Mary like a fiddle.  I wonder if he wants her away from Sam and Dean because he knows they're they aren't going to buy his spiel.

I continue to be frustrated with the lack of dialogue given to Dean at times.  Why wasn't he allowed to express his hurt and anger.  Instead he gets lectured by Mary about not making the Face and is given no comeback other than what face.   Mary hasn't earned the right to act like a mother.   Sam gets to express his hurt, and point out they tortured him.  They always seem to be able to find ways to to work out things that happened to Sam in, but Dean...major parts of his past are ignored.  But as that is straying to close to the bitterness thread I'll leave it at that.

I don't like the toys.  One of my favorite things was the blue collar aspect of the show.  Don't tell me Cas can't be in an episode because he makes things too easy, and then have magic ray guns where hunters wouldn't even really have to get out of the car.  It takes the danger and tension out of hunts.

[SueB]

Fanwanks and morning coffee:

23 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I also thought the demons didn't know where it was/couldn't get to it.  Azazel spent years or centuries, trying to find a way to speak with Lucifer.

When Amara entered this plane of existence, she damaged the cage -- caused 'cracks'.  My fanwank is that between the initial caterwalling that Lucifer did and the break in the structural integrity of the cage, it became detectable and vulnerable to examination.  To be honest, I'm not sure putting Luci in the broken cage wouldn't have just resulted in more hellucinations for Sam or whomever Luci targeted. 

7 hours ago, catrox14 said:

So why the hell was Dean so emotional in that farewell scene with Gavin. I mean it's not like it was someone he knew. That was weird.  "This one is hard" WTF? Was that even about? So weird.

Actually I was THRILLED he showed remorse.  This was more like Delphine in the Vessel, someone who sacrifices his life for the greater good.  As pointed up above, it didn't just stop killing, it stopped the impact of him ever being taken off the ship.  

@companionenvy I also believe that they didn't put him back to his room to talk to Fiona and stop her from sailing.  They put him on the ship.  In this case, since he had the locket in his hand, his connection to Fiona of the past was via the locket. I presume that Rowena modified the spell to allow the locket to help guide the location (vice blood to blood).  So since she didn't get the locket til AFTER he left (he said he was 'going to' give it to Fiona) she was not reachable via the locket until after she had it.  The only way this gets him to the ship versus the room is if she didn't put the locket on and take possession of it until she was on the ship.  This does NOT explain how his possessions got on the ship, unless she took them herself (yes, another fanwank).  Maybe she ran to the ship w/ the bag thinking to catch him. When he wasn't there, all she had was the luggage and that's how she got the locket.  Regardless, possession of the locket by Fiona happened AFTER Abbadon showed up. Which means Gavin DID exist in this future but could go back to the past at a later time and not erase his time in the future.  Which is also why Sam and Dean remember him.  

On "Playing with Fire" (for @catrox14 and @Macbeth):
1) It's definitely from the acoustic 1965 version. Possibly the single vice the album.  Interestingly enough, it was written by "Nanker Phelge" (which they used, per the Wikipedia, as their name when it was group writing effort -- it may or maynot have to do with who gets the royalties).  The 1965 version had Richards on guitar and Jagger on vocals featured.  I don't know about how it was played in later years, but the clarity of the vocals/guitar is probably why it sounds "off".
2) I could see them paying major coin for the Season 6 finale song.  And Adam Glass (former head writer) indicated reusing a song they already own rights to is either much cheaper or free.  So, this did not cost the production an unusual amount.  And really, they used the song to excellent effect IMO in both episodes without making it repetitive.

 

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

 Kind of an interesting twist on the Nancy the virgin dilemma, except this time they let Gavin sacrifice himself to save the others.

I LOVE this observation. It's a nice call-out to how far they've come.  This makes me feel better @AwesomO4000 .  At first I thought it was too simplistic of a solution, but the combination of saving ALL the resulting deaths from Abbadon's time travel w/ Gavin AND save Fiona from her trauma, well... that's kind of a happy ending in it's own way.  And they've realized letting someone make a sacrifice might be an okay solution.  But honestly, I think the boys owe Crowley thanks from last week and an apology for this week.  I get WHY they did this week (better now, thanks) but they've really dumped on him twice.  But... how do you start the "I'm sorry we helped your son die..." conversation?  So, nope.  They'll just let it lie.  That's going to be a bad thing.  I just know it in my heart.

[DittyDotDot]

Well, I expected sucky nonsense, but I didn't expect that! I call bullshit on the entire episode. 

• First, if Gavin had been returned to his time...never mind, not even worth it.
• Second, if Crowley had a Lucifer meatsuit just laying around for a couple years...never mind, not even worth it.
• Third, you know what...NOT. EVEN. WORTH. IT.

But, for a Horrible Duo episode, it wasn't bad. I mean, they've done worse. ;)

12 hours ago, rue721 said:

Why would Mary go to all that trouble to buy burgers and beer, schlep them to the bunker -- and then tell Sam and Dean the bad news before they eat! IIRC, nobody ate in that diner scene last week, either!

Mary really wasn't kidding when she said she wasn't into cooking. She's bad at meals altogether.

No kidding! The least--and I mean the least--she could've done is bring Dean some damn pie! ;)

12 hours ago, catrox14 said:

How the hell did they afford the Stones?

As others have mentioned, they've used that song before. They've also used another Stones song in S1. Perhaps the Stones aren't as expensive as one would think?

11 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I thought I heard Crowley say in there somewhere that it was his new, permanent vessel (or some word that meant vessel). I think Crowley and his minions did something to the meatsuit to make sure that Lucifer stays in there.* As for it falling apart - for Crowley, that would be a bonus if he trapped Lucifer in a decaying meatsuit.

* Maybe he did some power up modifications to that spell he used to trap Sam's friend turned demon in his meatsuit in "The Devil You Know."

You know, last season my mantra was, "Too bad Ruby, Lilith, Alistair and Yellow Eyes didn't know all they needed was a witch back in the day." While watching this one I kept uttering: Too bad Lucifer didn't know he could just improve the vessel he was already in back in the day....Whatever.

11 hours ago, bearcatfan said:

I don't think she was championing them as much as deciding that she needed to come clean. Then she was trying to defend working with them. I still say that she doesn't trust them. She never said she did last week when Wally asked and she didn't say that she did this week when the boys brought that up. I don't know that they will agree to work for them but I do think they will help Mom out when she needs it, even if she is working for BMoL.

Yeah I don't think she trusts them either, but I think she's just really distracted by the shiny toys and the talk of ridding the world of monsters. And, I think she still believes she has the upper hand with them. I mean, she barked and they backed off in the last episode and in this episode she did exactly the opposite of what Mr. Ketch told her to do. So, yeah, I don't think she trusts them, she just thinks they're a means to an end.

I'm guessing they'll keep the status quo going forward--Mary doing her thing and the boys doing their thing--until it all comes to a head at the end of the season. Dean and Sam won't like Mary working with the BMoL, but they won't want to totally cut ties with her either.

Edited February 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

@ILoveReading and @Wayward Son both posted as I was making my long fanwank ... but both brought out something I wanted to echo and reinforce regarding Mary's actions:
1. She DID feel incompetent in this decade compared to the boys.  The BMoL toys give her a leg up.  Is that PRIDE coming from a Campbell/Winchester?  Yes, I think it could be.  As mentioned by both posters, Mary is struggling with her identity.  This gives her an angle and an edge.
2. Mary had the long-stated goal of wanting to be "safe", the advantage of the BMoL toys is an increase in safety factor versus the 'blue collar' brute force killing.  Again, a logical attraction there.
3. IA, Mr. Ketch calling her out is what sent her to tell the truth.  I give kudos to Mary for recognizing that whether or not he was correct on her motivations, her motivations needed to be examined and it was time to confess to the boys.  So... well done for those who said she was lying to herself about trying to save the boys.  Ketch (the slimey psychopath), calling her out was enough for her to come clean.  That's a sign of a fundamentally good person, IMO.  She already knew the lying was a mistake but she went in with an honest argument (in her mind) -- she honestly thinks the BMoL has a better way. It is less risk to the hunter.  

I remain convinced that how they are going about things is just wrong.  It's cruel.  And that doesn't sit well with me.  

[ILoveReading]

One other thing, I thought the montage at the end was a cop-out.  We needed to see that conversation between Mary and her sons.  We needed her her Mary try to justify her actions and allow both Sam and Dean to express their objections, anger and hurt.

But instead I fear its just going to be handwaved with a throwaway line (Mom made a really good argument, we should trust her even if we don't trust them) and allow the writers to skip out om=n coming up with a justifiable reason about why Sam and Dean would give the BMoLs the time of day.

[rue721]

I actually really enjoyed it, but this was also the first episode in a long while that I was able to get home in time to start at 8pm and watch the whole way through with no interruptions. So maybe I was just appreciating getting to settle down for a live viewing ;)

Also, I kind of love Crowley's family (so I knew I would probably like this one). Dunno what it is. They've all grown on me, and I think they're interesting/fun to watch together.

50 minutes ago, SueB said:

1. She DID feel incompetent in this decade compared to the boys.  The BMoL toys give her a leg up.  Is that PRIDE coming from a Campbell/Winchester?  Yes, I think it could be.  As mentioned by both posters, Mary is struggling with her identity.  This gives her an angle and an edge.

Yes, that makes sense to me. She's feeling like a loser newbie, doesn't like it, and is using the BMOL as a crutch so she can keep up with the Big Dogs (aka TFW).

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This might be more unpopular opinion territory but I don't like Mark P's Lucifer, or SPN's for that matter. Tom Ellis on Fox, ruined any other portrayal for me.     I think he's a whiny brat who someone (Dean, after all we need balance and its only fair since Sam got to do it twice) needs to stab.  But with the permanent vessel, we're never getting rid of him, I fear.  He;s just not scary anymore.   There is no where left to take the character.

I agree with you...and I don't understand why they keep trying to make Lucifer happen on this show. He's just not a very interesting guy. I wouldn't mind that he's not scary if I found him interesting at all, but he's so dull that I really don't see any reason for the show to continue trying to ~explore his character.~

Also, once again they have a character just hanging out on the show who has a history of (literally) torturing Sam. It's weird that the show is constantly trying to push Sam to work with his torturers. Cole, the BMOL, Lucifer...I don't get it.

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

Ketch is playing Mary like a fiddle.  I wonder if he wants her away from Sam and Dean because he knows they're they aren't going to buy his spiel.

I think she did realize he was messing with her head, but she also liked what he had to say, so she more or less decided to just go along with it.

I think he wants to push her away from Sam and Dean, and is telling her to harden up, because he wants her to do some dirty work for him. Isolating her and making her feel like she needs to prove how tough she is will make her easier to push into doing things that she might otherwise shy away from.

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

The first scene with Mary was a weird mixture of Sue-ing her up and showing how pathetic she is, performing like a trained little lab rat for her master with the stopwatch.

I guess stop-watches are the new fad for villains! First Ramiel and now Mr K.

Kind of funny to think of them both being on-trend (within the baddies' clique, anyway!). :P

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I do remember though that that was why Sam and Dean came up with the plan to send him back - because Gavin wanted to save the teachers. And his girlfriend. He loved her and didn't want what happened to her either. So Gavin decided that going back would fix both what happened to her and save the teachers, and since the teachers didn't end up dying (Sam checked the news for their names), Gavin did save them. So yes, they didn't try to save Gavin, but they also didn't take away his choice to sacrifice himself to save other innocent people.

Why doom Gavin instead of saving Fiona? That's what I thought was depressing. I appreciate that Gavin was a valiant guy, trying to save everybody by jumping on this grenade but...I wish they would have tried a bit harder to save him, too. As soon as Gavin said that Fiona was the love of his life, I was hoping for a happily ever after for them.

I wonder if Gavin's sacrifice is foreshadowing a similar sacrifice that Mary is going to make. I wonder if she's going to go back in time to die when she was "supposed to" in order to save someone *she* loves from going down "the wrong path." I mean, what if she decides to retroactively rescue John like Gavin decided to retroactively rescued Fiona?

16 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

One other thing, I thought the montage at the end was a cop-out.

I am really hating the montages that they keep sticking at the end of the episodes. Even a good song couldn't save the uselessness of this one. So many shots of Lucifer just sitting there in a chair staring into space. Why in the world would we need to see that? What were we even supposed to be feeling about it? Beh.

Edited February 24, 2017 by rue721
totally incorrect idiom

[Wayward Son]

23 hours ago, rue721 said:

I am really hating the montages that they keep sticking at the end of the episodes. Even a good song couldn't save the uselessness of this one. So many shots of Lucifer just sitting there in a chair staring into space. Why in the world would we need to see that? What were we even supposed to be feeling about it? Beh.

I think the main point of that scene was his utterance of the name "Dagon". I assume they wanted it to be a cliff hanger where we are left to wonder is he in direct communication with her, or can he just sense her locality to his son through their bond. 

Personally I don't particularly care either way since I'm bored with Lucifer, but thats my take on that scene. 

Edited February 25, 2017 by Wayward Son

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I am really hating the montages that they keep sticking at the end of the episodes. Even a good song couldn't save the uselessness of this one. So many shots of Lucifer just sitting there in a chair staring into space. Why in the world would we need to see that? What were we even supposed to be feeling about it? Beh.

I'm not one to generally pooh-pooh a musical interlude, but I feel like the end musical montages are goofy too. I don't now how to articulate it, but they feel like they belong on a completely different show. 

19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

One other thing, I thought the montage at the end was a cop-out.  We needed to see that conversation between Mary and her sons.  We needed her her Mary try to justify her actions and allow both Sam and Dean to express their objections, anger and hurt.

I don't think I needed to see that conversation. I mean, don't we all know what was being said? Wasn't it already said in the previous scene?

Edited February 24, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Why doom Gavin instead of saving Fiona? That's what I thought was depressing. I appreciate that Gavin was a valiant guy, trying to save everybody by jumping on this landmine but...I wish they would have tried a bit harder to save him, too. As soon as Gavin said that Fiona was the love of his life, I was hoping for a happily ever after for them.

 

I think this is mostly from the writers having trouble with pacing.  To much was packed into this episode to really give the ghost story time to develop.  I think it would have been better to drop the Men of Letters, Kelly, Dagon, and Lucifer and just focus on this being a monster of a week.  Have Mary join the hunt and realizing how Crowley lost the son her never really knew, Rowena purposely driving a wedge between her and Crowley, could have been just as powerful motivators to lead Mary to confess and realize she was driving her boys away with her behavior and confess. 

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Why doom Gavin instead of saving Fiona? That's what I thought was depressing. I appreciate that Gavin was a valiant guy, trying to save everybody by jumping on this landmine but...I wish they would have tried a bit harder to save him, too. As soon as Gavin said that Fiona was the love of his life, I was hoping for a happily ever after for them.

Because you can't mess with the timeline.  Gavin needed to go back so that they could find his ring and save Bobby's soul.  That episode should never have happened if they weren't able to put Gavin back. 

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Katy M said:

Because you can't mess with the timeline.  Gavin needed to go back so that they could find his ring and save Bobby's soul.  That episode should never have happened if they weren't able to put Gavin back. 

This is my problem, if they put him back, then none of the present stuff would've happened. I mean, Sam and Dean shouldn't have even been aware there had been a case in the first place and all the stuff that happened with Crowley and Gavin back in S9 should've never happened either.

Sorry, I forgot...it's not even worth it. 

[rue721]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I think this is mostly from the writers having trouble with pacing.  To much was packed into this episode to really give the ghost story time to develop.  I think it would have been better to drop the Men of Letters, Kelly, Dagon, and Lucifer and just focus on this being a monster of a week.  Have Mary join the hunt and realizing how Crowley lost the son her never really knew, Rowena purposely driving a wedge between her and Crowley, could have been just as powerful motivators to lead Mary to confess and realize she was driving her boys away with her behavior and confess. 

I agree with all of what you're saying. That also reminds me, though -- I actually did really like the ghost scenes in this one. Fiona was scary as hell. The cold open of a women going through the longest and most mundane bedtime routine in the world was also pretty funny at the same time as it was scary, which I loved. It just seemed to go on FOREVER. Same thing with the obnoxious teacher telling every kid in her class "no" about something, before finally getting doomed with the locket going into her pocket. I dunno, maybe I have a sick sense of humor. I was finding it funny how the show casually established how prissy and how much of a PITA the victims were before they finally got axed, so just as you were getting really fed up with them BOOM they were horrifically doomed/killed/whatever.

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm not one to generally pooh-pooh a musical interlude, but I feel like the end musical montages are goofy too. I don't now how to articulate it, but they feel like they belong on a completely different show. 

Yeah, they feel very out of place to me, too. They feel like something that should be in the credit sequence of a cheesy and dated drama.

I think the problem is that they just rehash a bunch of ~emotional moments~ and attempt to set the mood, instead of actually moving forward the timeline or the story at all. It makes them feel treacly and useless.

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Because you can't mess with the timeline.  Gavin needed to go back so that they could find his ring and save Bobby's soul.  That episode should never have happened if they weren't able to put Gavin back. 

I guess, or maybe they could have found some other way to save him. I dunno, I'd prefer a happy ending and a fanwank. But YMMV, I don't have a big problem with how they handled it. Mostly, I just find it needlessly depressing.

ETA:  now I'm rooting for someone to save Gavin AND Fiona.

Edited February 24, 2017 by rue721

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

This is my problem, if they put him back, then none of the present stuff would've happened. I mean, Sam and Dean shouldn't have even been aware there had been a case in the first place and all the stuff that happened with Crowley and Gavin back in S9 should've never happened either.

Sorry, I forgot...it's not even worth it. 

Sam and Dean shouldn't have been aware of this case, but the stuff with Crowley and Gavin in s9, and everything Gavin has been doing since then, still would have happened.  They didn't erase the original time travel.  They simply put Gavin back 2 years later.  So, Gavin actually got 2 years of life that he wouldn't have had if not for Abaddon.

[DittyDotDot]

12 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Sam and Dean shouldn't have been aware of this case, but the stuff with Crowley and Gavin in s9, and everything Gavin has been doing since then, still would have happened.  They didn't erase the original time travel.  They simply put Gavin back 2 years later.  So, Gavin actually got 2 years of life that he wouldn't have had if not for Abaddon.

It doesn't matter if they put him back now or two years...never mind, I keep forgetting, not even worth it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Wayward Son said:

when Mary has the experiences of someone in their early thirties herself. I think it would be quite natural for her to develop a fear that she isn’t good enough, that she can’t be what Sam and Dean need her to be. This could explain why she has slipped back into the familiar world of hunting. She has convinced herself it is the only thing she is capable of doing. It could also explain why she has opted to remain emotionally distant from the boys. It is better to keep herself distant and be a disappointment to them than open herself emotionally and be rejected. 

I understand why this could be a thing g for Mary but she's not actually helping herself because she's not  spending any significant time with them within that allows her and them to figure out how to just "be" with each other. She would soon learn that most of her rationale etc has nothing to do with the reality of their lives. I mean maybe Dean would like to make her a burger and watch Game of Thrones with her and maybe Sam wants to go with her to a foreign film about a mime that's secretly a cockroach. She doesn't know any of this because she  refuses to be in their company for 5 freaking minutes.

[Katy M]

5 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

It doesn't matter if they put him back now or two years...never mind, I keep forgetting, not even worth it.

Stop saying to forget it. I guess I don't understand what you're saying.  Abaddon plucked him from 1723 or whatever (totally made up the year) to the present time. He then ran around for two years doing whatever it was he was doing.  Rowena's spell stuck him back on the ship (I assume, either that or back at his house in time for him to make the ship).  Therefore, he was only missing from the past for a few hours.  The time he spent in present time still exists.  Why wouldn't it?  The only way his time in the present would cease to exist is if they went back in time to prevent Rowena from ever bringing him forward in time.  They clearly didn't do that.  There are apparently two lockets to be found on the ship now, though.

[companionenvy]

Quote

, KATY M SAID:

Sam and Dean shouldn't have been aware of this case, but the stuff with Crowley and Gavin in s9, and everything Gavin has been doing since then, still would have happened.  They didn't erase the original time travel.  They simply put Gavin back 2 years later.  So, Gavin actually got 2 years of life that he wouldn't have had if not for Abaddon.

OK, that makes some sense to me - they didn't erase the timeline, they just put him back on the ship. Even so, it seems dicey. The people Fiona killed had already died - it wasn't as if they were simply preventing future murder. So, by doing something that will bring those people back, Sam and Dean ARE messing with an existing timeline. The results of changing time are unpredictable. For all we know, someone who skipped work to attend the funeral of one of the victims in the original timeline now died in a car crash on the way to the office. Which, in the scheme of things, might still leave us with a net positive, in terms of saving the greatest number of people, but at least in theory the butterfly effect could include more dire consequences. 

[Katy M]

2 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

OK, that makes some sense to me - they didn't erase the timeline, they just put him back on the ship. Even so, it seems dicey. The people Fiona killed had already died - it wasn't as if they were simply preventing future murder. So, by doing something that will bring those people back, Sam and Dean ARE messing with an existing timeline. The results of changing time are unpredictable. For all we know, someone who skipped work to attend the funeral of one of the victims in the original timeline now died in a car crash on the way to the office. Which, in the scheme of things, might still leave us with a net positive, in terms of saving the greatest number of people, but at least in theory the butterfly effect could include more dire consequences. 

But, we would never know that.  You could say that about anyone Sam and Dean saved before they died.  I think the 3 people that died in the last couple of days would make no difference, but I guess you may have a point about the one that died 6 months ago. However, you could also say that Gavin's original removal from the ship is what caused those deaths in the first place.

I absolutely hate hate hate time travel.  I can not stress it enough. So, I totally get your frustration about messing with the timeline.  I just think, that in the particular case, they were just putting right what once went wrong.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I continue to be frustrated with the lack of dialogue given to Dean at times.  Why wasn't he allowed to express his hurt and anger.  Instead he gets lectured by Mary about not making the Face and is given no comeback other than what face.   Mary hasn't earned the right to act like a mother.   Sam gets to express his hurt, and point out they tortured him.  They always seem to be able to find ways to to work out things that happened to Sam in, but Dean...major parts of his past are ignored.  But as that is straying to close to the bitterness thread I'll leave it at that.

I was annoyed as well that when Dean was being sarcastic about how long  Mary was gone, Sam interrupts Dean and says to Mary  "Dean is... Dramatic, as you know."

I was like say what? Which is it show/Sam? So when Dean is actually expressing his true emotions sometimes  with sarcasm, he's labeled as dramatic now, but when he doesn't express his emotions, even with sarcasm, then he's repressing and suppressing. I get it was supposed to be funny but it left me saying "Sam, could you stop trying to manage how Dean expresses himself?"

[rue721]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I was annoyed as well that when Dean was being sarcastic about how long  Mary was gone, Sam interrupts Dean and says to Mary  "Dean is... Dramatic, as you know."

I was like say what? Which is it show/Sam? So when Dean is actually expressing his true emotions sometimes  with sarcasm, he's labeled as dramatic now, but when he doesn't express his emotions, even with sarcasm, then he's repressing and suppressing. I get it was supposed to be funny but it left me saying "Sam, could you stop trying to manage how Dean expresses himself?"

I thought Sam was just worried about Mary taking it the wrong way.