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SilverStormm

S04.E04: Oathkeeper

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Episode Synopsis: “Dany balances justice and mercy. Jaime tasks Brienne with his honor. Jon secures volunteers while Bran, Jojen, Meera, and Hodor stumble on shelter.”

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Isn't Locke the guy who cut off Jaime's hand?

 

Was Jojen always sick? I don't remember that.

 

OMG, White Crawlers!

 

Oh, and Bran looks like he belongs in an 80s hair band.

 

PS. I still think the poison jewel plot line is convoluted as hell.

 

ETA. I nearly forgot, Brienne and Podrick, hooray!

 

I feel bad for Tyrion. Shae is gone, Sansa is gone, Podrick is gone, Bronn is basically gone. I thought things looked bleak after Blackwater, but at least he still had his core support group.

Edited by 90PercentGravity

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Well, knock me down with a golden glove: they finally made the Wall story interesting.  

 

Even the Stark direwolves can't...quite..touch...each other...but it really looks as if a Stark reunion must take place there soon. Which leads me to believe it won't, that Bran will warg them out of their predicament at Crasters', and Jon and Locke will both be disappointed, for different reasons.  

 

I think I hear the distant rumble and the plaintive horn of a redemption train, derailed last week, hoisted back on track.  Jaime's giving Brienne the sword was truly touching.  But her naming it Oathkeeper: that was princely.  Jaime may have found the hero he has always sought to serve.  Like Jorah, really: the disappointed lordly father, the rotten past, the sour liaison/marriage, the unexpected journey with a woman he meant to best/betray, become a trial of devotion. Even a Valyrian steel sword thrown into the mix, (meant to be) passed on to a Stark.  

 

Littlefinger's assessment of his new allies.  Olenna wants the Lannisters put down a notch or two and Margaery as Queen.  Lyssa wants...to be Littlefinger's Queen? How much does she know of what he wants and what he's done?  If she's a willing partner, does she foresee a throne for herself as his consort or even for Robin, somehow, eventually?  If she's a witting partner, does she actually not give a damn that Littlefinger engineered Ned's death (second only to Joffrey in that), and so set in motion everything that has befallen Cat and her family? 

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Holy moses, that whitewalker god/whatever looked like a straight-up demon from BtVS. I was not expecting anything like that. 

 

Loved that Lady Olenna was not about to let her granddaughter get tied for life to a psycho and took matters into her own hands. 

 

And it's fascinating to me how quickly Cersei is losing power and influence. Tywin pulling Tommen right from her side last episode and indoctrinating him, including directly criticizing Joffrey. Margaery slipping past the guards to head off Cersei by befriending Tommen. Jaime deciding to honor his promise to Cat through Brienne, and supporting Tyrion. Cersei is losing everything.

Edited by Shadowlass

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Ser Pounce!

Not finished the episode so I haven't read any other comments. Had to pause because my head was about to explode because SER POUNCE!

I. Am. In. Awe.

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Wow.  I didn't expect the entire plot to kill Joffrey to be laid out in a neat little package for us.  It was awfully Bond Villain-ish of Little Finger to explain everything to Sansa.  He's far too smart for that, so I liked it and didn't like it at the same time.  What I loved was Sansa!  She's finally found her voice and shown that she's not the stupid little dove everyone presumed her to be.  Also, I didn't think Little Finger and Lady Arryn were actually betrothed.  How in the world did he manage that?  I wondered about this before, and assumed that she had some measure of autonomy after her husband's death.  I can't imagine why she would agree to marry a nothing lordling like Little Finger.

 

I always loved Cersei, but she's beginning to bug. And I didn't care for Margaery this episode either.  I don't know why, but her scene with Tommen was really unconvincing to me.  I like what she's doing though.  Very clever, those Tyrells. 

 

Jaime and Brienne...that last scene and Jaime's face when she named the sword Oathkeeper was just amazing.  I love Pallas' comparison between Jorah and Jaime.  Exactly right.  Except in this case, the love, admiration and respect goes both ways.  Before the season started, I assumed Brienne would help Jaime retrain to fight with his off-hand, and that their incredible bond would deepen.  This is nearly as satisfying.  And it's good to know that Brienne is beyond Cersei's reach.  What doesn't make sense is how riding off into the countryside is going to help Brienne find Sansa.  It strikes me as a strange way to begin with her search.

 

The horse at the end bothered me.  A case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.  First its face has skin, including ears.  Then it's a skull with some connective tissue and no ears.  Then we're back to skin and ears.  I know it doesn't matter, but it destroyed the continuity. I had wondered exactly what the White Walkers were doing with those baby boys.  It looks like there's a lot more to this story than expected.  At first, I thought the White Walker was heading to that big tree that Bran saw in his dream, and I'm was relieved that it wasn't.

 

We really are set up for some Stark reunions this season.  Sansa/Arya and Bran/Jon would be too much to hope for, wouldn't it?  It's hard for me to find the north of the Wall stuff interesting, but it seems like they're setting up quite a battle at Craster's.  I'm confused about what Ghost was doing there.  Wasn't he following Sam and Gilly when we last saw him?


Ser Pounce!
Not finished the episode so I haven't read any other comments. Had to pause because my head was about to explode because SER POUNCE!
I. Am. In. Awe.

 

I did a double take too.  Anders' cat in Dragon Age!  Awesome! 

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Snowblack:

"Anders' cat in Dragon Age!"

Another cat in a different book? Even cooler! I was just amazed at how cute that name was.

The end was... Whoa. It was creepy, and looked great, maybe a hair long, but I feel queazy, it's like we know something the rest of Westeros doesn't. This is bad, this is really bad.

ETA: Ghost - last seen ditching Jon Snuh right before he met Ygritte. How the hell did they catch him? Hard to believe. I hated seeing another direwolf in a pen where any large gatherings are taking place.

Edited by WhiteStumbler

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Also, I didn't think Little Finger and Lady Arryn were actually betrothed.  How in the world did he manage that?  I wondered about this before, and assumed that she had some measure of autonomy after her husband's death.  I can't imagine why she would agree to marry a nothing lordling like Little Finger.

 

During the trial of Tyrion at the Eyrie, I got a very jealous-little-sister vibe from Lyssa.  She seemed to me to be deeply satisfied in taking the lead role in Cat's presence, and running the proceedings as she saw fit.  To Cat's increasing distress.  I imagined then that perhaps young Lyssa had a girlhood crush on either Brandon or Ned Stark, and had nursed a grievance at seeing Cat claim both men.  (As if the sisters were surnamed O'Hara and not Tully.)  If Lyssa did bear a near-lifelong grudge against Cat, that would actually make her an apt partner with Littlefinger, in some ways.  

 

The horse at the end bothered me.  A case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing.

 

Phony zompony.

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HODOR!!

 

Out of everything that disturbed the hell out of me this episode, seeing Hodor baited like a bear was probably the most upsetting. And considering the fuck-ton of rape that was going on, that is saying a lot.

 

So glad that Jaime is on Tyrion's side; someone has to be. I absolutely loved their scene. Once again, they seem to be the only Lannister siblings that actually treat each other like siblings! And Jaime's scenes with Brienne were just perfect. I needed more Brienne on my screen and this episode delivered. I really, really hope we get to follow her adventures with Podrick.

 

Ser Pounce made my night. And agreed that Margery's scene with Tommen came off as kind of weird and probably not as sweetly intimate as they were hoping for, but I think her visit had the intended effect on him. She speaks to him like a friend, keeps secrets with him like a grown up, tempts him with a hint of things he doesn't know how to want yet, and then kisses him like a mother. Olenna was right; she is GOOD!

 

I love that Olenna killed Joffrey. But if she intends to let Tyrion take the fall, then she and I may have a problem. I'm not sure that she will, though. It seems that out of all the Lannisters, Tyrion would be the one she'd most want to have in a position of influence, rather than dead for treason. Olenna's playing a long game, and letting Tyrion die would keep her family safe in the short term, but clearing his name might benefit her in the long run. I can't imagine she'll leave the result of the trial to chance. I wonder if she'll quit while she's ahead and let him die, or find another scapegoat to take the fall, or... it would be brilliant if she could find a way to point it back to Littlefinger, but that would take some careful planning and probably wouldn't be worth the risk. Then again, he claims to be her "friend," and who'd want to keep a friend like him? I could think myself in circles all night with this one, so I'm cutting myself off here.

 

I noticed this episode was directed by Michelle MacLaren, of Breaking Bad fame! Anyone know if this was her first GoT episode? She did a brilliant job.

Edited by Slovenly Muse

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PS. I still think the poison jewel plot line is convoluted as hell.

 

Truly.  That really seems to be a huge weakness of this story, apparently the author can't come up with an assassination plot that doesn't at least warrant an eye-roll in terms of plausibility.  At least the "wine merchant waits for Dany to wander by as his bid for taking her out" has now been trumped for "well that came straight out of a closed head injury ward" . 

 

I did like that A Show took mercy on the actors and didn't really attempt to have them truly depict that silliness.  It also seems like A Show knew that it was a bit of a stretch.  Points to them for making those jewels just cartoonishly large too.  "My brilliant plan for taking out the King!" that was not.  I'll give the actor playing Olenna her due, she managed to invest her reveal to Margaery with a lot of honest emotion.  It was kind of the show not to make her go into how because good grief, way to swing for the fences of Ludicrousville.  

 

Moving on from that.  I did end up wondering if Brienne will catch up with Sansa and since Sansa knows that Tyrion is innocent, thanks to Littlefinger's reveal (which that actor didn't do quite as well as Olenna in imbuing the goofiness with dignity), if she'll figure out some way to help Tyrion. Poor Sansa doesn't seem like great shakes in the figuring department. 

 

You know, I wish that A Show would allow the Starks to occasionally do something right and intelligently. Also, lay off the direwolves, Show.  I hope two more aren't about to bite the dust.  As soon as Bran basically said, "I'm going in" I figured his poor wolf was a goner.  At least he's alive for now, I guess.  Great work, Show.  Way to make me long for the (comparatively) halcyon days of yore when Craster was alive

 

I'm not even sure what to say to the makers of the White Walkers other than, hey does anyone remember Sweet from Buffy the Vampire Slayer?  His albino brethren have been spotted.  

 

You know, Natalie Dormer also manages to play a lot of stuff that is really challenging with a fair amount of dignity, but even she couldn't pull off the "Margaery steals into Tommen's bed chamber where they discusss... his surprisingly adorable kitty cat!" That was the King Kong of Awkward courtships.   At least the fairy in charge of handing out psychosis apparently skipped Tommen entirely.  

Edited by Which Tyler
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Enjoyed this episode more, though it may be because of its lack of the icky type of scene we got last time- Also screw you, show, for succeeding in getting me emotional for that Jaime - Brienne moment. 

 

Margaery seducting the young Tommen was a bit awkward. The way to a young king's heart is through... his little pet, right? Reminded me a bit of last week's 'Veep' episode where Amy is put in charge of a kid and goes 'Do you like the Power Rangers?!!" and "Peeing is fun!", revealing a less than stellar affinity with the younger set. 

 

Dany - ruler. Except not in Westeros, but some big city with a new flag 

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Uh, now I know why the changed the actor that plays Tommen with an older kid, to make what's to come between him and Maergery less...creepy? Still, I don't like where this is going....

 

The Dany part was silly and useless. You'd think by now these slave city masters would either know how to successfully face her or smartly surrender. So, they cockily taunt her just to be that easily taken by their own slaves, who have never even fought before with some given swords? I thought they had some sort of plan. Stupid.

 

Also stupid: necklace thing.

PS. I still think the poison jewel plot line is convoluted as hell.

Word.

 

Truly.  That really seems to be a huge weakness of this story, apparently the author can't come up with an assassination plot that doesn't at least warrant an eye-roll in terms of plausibility.  At least the "wine merchant waits for Dany to wander by as his bid for taking her out" has now been trumped for "well that came straight out of a closed head injury ward" . 

 

Double word. I refuse to believe this whole mess was this stupidly treated in the books. I prefer to think there were more details or stuff they cut in the show, and that's why it ended up not making any sense on TV. Either way, I don't want to know, don't spoil me! But it's silly, just the assumption that Sansa would even wear that stupid necklace, which even doesn't make any sense that she would (why would she, you'd think she'd try to keep that piece of jewelry hidden, or anyone would notice where it came from). Or why would Olynna even risk taking a stupid rock from the necklace, when poison could have been so easily hidden ANYWHERE else. Or even that Sansa wouldn't notice Olynna taking a piece of rock from her. Or even the fact that Olynna couldn't wait a few more hours for the marriage consummation to get rid of Joffrey. Or how about how on earth was Olynna sure they'd betroth Marge to Tommen?? And why would Twyin do it if he's not needing the Tryrells so much as before and he knows how dangerous they are??? ARGGHH! I think this has been one of my least favorite plots in the show so far.

 

Jaime's giving Brienne the sword was truly touching.

 

Jaime deciding to honor his promise to Cat through Brienne, and supporting Tyrion.

 

Was I the only one who thought Jaimie wasn't really trying to rescue Sansa, but quite the opposite? I don't know, maybe is because I don't like Jaimie, but I thought he sent Brienne because he wanted Sansa caught, like Cersei told him to. That's why he was giving Brienne those guilty looks when sending her off. Because, where the hell is Brienne supposed to take Sansa if she finds her?  To Jaimie?? And when is Jaimie supporting Tyrion? he's not doing anything on his behalf and I don't think he's planning to.

 

Finally, shit on the Wall just got real! Wow, amazing to know that Craster's wives are now even worst than before!! I didn't know Jojen suffered from epilepsy, that explains a lot.

That Locke, is one sneaky bastard! I remember posting on the speculation thread that I wasn't worried about Bolton's men getting Bran because he was North of the Wall, way out of their reach. Oh men, was I wrong!!!

 

So we finally found out what the WW do with the babies. I thought for sure they ate them. On the speculation thread wayyyy before someone guessed that they turned them into WW, so you were right anonymous poster, congrats! Although, that was also kind of too easy. You'd think they'd at least need some sort of ceremony and a longer process to turn a human baby into a WW.

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Now, I generally think Olenna could have been involved in the plot, but I just can't accept that pinching a stone off of Sansa's necklace would be key to orchestrating this murder.  What would that look like, anyway?  The stones dissolved into the poison used to kill Joffrey?  And she'd steal a stone, why, to frame Sansa?  "Oh here's a stone containing poison...oh my, it matches the necklace Sansa was wearing! She did it!!"

 

 

That was me, two episodes ago.  Foot in mouth.  My apologies to the true believers!  I hath seen the (lord of the) light.

 

And yet, as was said earlier, that was indeed convoluted as all hell.  Ridiculous.  And coming from someone who thought LOST got better after season three, that says alot.  I'm having the hardest time believing, even considering the overly complicated murder plot, that LF or Olenna would actually tell anyone they were involved.  "Dead men tell no tales," huh?  Well, you're gonna have to freakin' kill everyone if you keep blabbing all the deets of your (stupid) plot.

 

I said in the Jaime thread that I'm concerned at the lack of consequences of last week's rape.  The scene with Brienne was lovely, but I kept thinking "yeah but he just raped his sister" which is now even more distracting than the "yeah but he's fucking his sister" intrusion of before.  Sidenote, it's weird how everyone seems to "know" about their relationship.  I was under the impression no one believed the incest rumors.

 

I loved learning that Bronn is still loyal to Tyrion.  Something about that was truly a relief for me, perhaps I'm a sucker for the ol' "rogue gone good" storyline.

Edited by capt planet
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I love you!  All of you.  I was thinking about how hair-brained the poisoning plot was last night, and I was going to say something here this morning, and it turns out there is no need. 

 

Whitestumbler, Dragon Age is a video game series. :)  And there's a cat named Ser Pounce in the second one.

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I already have Maergery, my conniving and beautiful cat. A "Ser Pounce" would make a nice addition.

 

I thought, for sure, that Tywin and Littlefinger were in cahoots to murder Joffrey. After finding out it was Olenna, I was brought back to Season 3.  Olenna and Varys were plotting to marry Sansa to Loras specifically so Littlefinger couldn't get a hold of her and have the key to the North.  "He would burn this kingdom to the ground if he could be king of the ashes." Olenna seemed grateful and did arrange the match between Sansa and Loras.  So if she wanted to wisk Sansa, the key to the North, away from the Lannisters, why do it with Littlefinger? She may still be willing to marry her to Loras. Still, the plot they came up with basically implicates her in murdering Joffrey. So she can't marry anyone then. Because she'd be "found" and tried for murder. Does this mean she'd have to be in hiding the rest of her life? They could be betting that the North would celebrate her regardless since no one is a big Joffrey fan since the whole Ned Stark beheading. Perhaps the North would protect her.

 

Basically, Sansa is important until Locke finds Bran. Ugh. This is horrible. It's like a damn time bomb. Which Stark child will be murdered first because another Stark child is found elsewhere.

Edited by Which Tyler
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I'm disappointed about the Littlefinger/necklace/Olenna connection.  I always thought Olenna was fabulous, and smart.  Now I think she's a lot less smart than I gave her credit for.  She actually trusted LIttlefinger with a plot to assassinate The King?  And with a plot so convoluted and seemingly unnecessary? 

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Thanks for the Dragon Age connection.


One worrying detail - LF swept the crushed jewel and the rest of the necklace into the Fool's Rowboat of Death and didn't promptly drop a ballast stone thru the center of it, so that thing is floating around stuffed with incriminating evidence that will point the finger at Sansa. Tyrion is screwed.

Edited by Which Tyler
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One worrying detail - LF swept the crushed jewel and the rest of the necklace into the Fool's Rowboat of Death and didn't promptly drop a ballast stone thru the center of it, so that thing is floating around stuffed with incriminating evidence that will point the finger at Sansa. Tyrion is screwed.

 

I don't understand why Olenna would implicate Sansa in the first place. I could see Littlefinger wanting Sansa under his control--deeply rooted issues with the Starks and the Tullys, power-hungry control freak, creepy as hell.  And I suppose Tyrion was an obvious scapegoat, so I can get letting him take the fall, but it still doesn't explain why Sansa was so central here or why Olenna would agree to using Sansa in such a way.  I feel like a poison plot would have worked with or without the necklace.  And really, how can they know for certain she'd wear that particular necklace to the event?  How could they have guaranteed each of those factors would come into play?  Wouldn't it be easier to pull a vial from a hidden pocket than to hope you don't get noticed pinching a stone from someone's necklace?  So much of this makes no sense.

 

ETA: I realized that ChocButterfly had asked each of these rhetoricals, almost word for word.  Thank the gods for no 15/15 rule!

Edited by capt planet

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I don't understand why Olenna would implicate Sansa in the first place.

Perhaps it was never the original plan to implicate Sansa. The plan must have been in the making for a long time and Olenna came specifically to Kings Landing to organize the wedding. Back then she wanted Sansa to marry Loras and leave for Highgarden, so Sansa probably was never part of the original plot. The whole scene where Olenna inspected the necklaces seems oddly suspicious now. Why did they not have a necklace for the bride two weeks before the wedding? Because Margary was supposed to wear the poisonous necklace, but Littlefinger had his own plans (payback for the proposed Sansa/Loras marriage?) and decided to pay Dontos to deliver the necklace to Sansa instead (and tell Olenna where she can find the poison) and help Sansa escape after the deed was done.

Edited by arry the orphan

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One worrying detail - LF swept the crushed jewel and the rest of the necklace into the Fool's Rowboat of Death and didn't promptly drop a ballast stone thru the center of it, so that thing is floating around stuffed with incriminating evidence that will point the finger at Sansa. Tyrion is screwed.

Sansa's pretty thoroughly implicated already by fleeing just as the murder happened. 

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Well, let's go back to talking about the episode, if that suits everyone. 

 

Onwards, so I did my speed rewatch again.  This is where I basically skip anything that just ticked me off or bored me the first time out.  So...no Craster's Camp of Ongoing Sexual Assaults and Horror.   Yay, wish I could have skipped it the first time.  The lead guy who has gone all Heart of Darkness "I drink from the skull I address as a person"  can die any old time.  Jewelry.  An iffy belt.  Death by Ugly Hat, I don't give a damn, just die already. 

 

Also, did they recast Jojen?  I swear that actor is barely recognizable to me.  

 

I think Jaime sincerely sent Brienne to save Sansa and "take her somewhere safe"  which might be home to Tarth, or somewhere else.  Jaime seemed to send Brienne off as the keeper of his better nature.  I liked that part and look forward to Pod and Brienne.  It would be pretty hilarious if they bump into the Hound and Arya, never knowing she's located Arya Stark.  

Edited by Which Tyler
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Also, did they recast Jojen?  I swear that actor is barely recognizable to me.

 

Same actor, just all sweaty and feverish looking.

 

So, I'm confused about LF's plan for Sansa.  He said will take Sansa to the Eyrie where he will be marrying Lysa.  Then what?  This is Westeros, so they won't just be living happily ever after, a nice little family with a hole in their living room floor to toss anyone who comes near.  He knows that the Lannisters will be looking for Sansa, so what does he expect to do when they find her.  Surely, Varys has some little birds that will eventually hear that Sansa is with her aunt.  

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Also, someone mentioned that they were surprised that Jojen had epilepsy. They made this pretty clear in season 3. Meera put the leather strap in his mouth and told the Bran-Clan that the visions take their toll. He didn't pick a good time to have an attack. That's for sure.

 

This skull-drinker, monologue-giver kinda came out of nowhere.  Did we ever meet him prior to this episode? I do like how Rast (thanks Unsullied Character Guide) killed Mormont and Craster only to end up serving an even worse piece of crap. That dude can't catch a break.

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Was I the only one who thought Jaimie wasn't really trying to rescue Sansa, but quite the opposite? I don't know, maybe is because I don't like Jaimie, but I thought he sent Brienne because he wanted Sansa caught, like Cersei told him to. That's why he was giving Brienne those guilty looks when sending her off. Because, where the hell is Brienne supposed to take Sansa if she finds her?  To Jaimie?? And when is Jaimie supporting Tyrion? he's not doing anything on his behalf and I don't think he's planning to.

 

Visiting him was support. I'd be a little surprised if Jaime testified on his behalf, but only a little.

 

 

 

I think Jaime sincerely sent Brienne to save Sansa and "take her somewhere safe"  which might be home to Tarth, or somewhere else.  Jaime seemed to send Brienne off as the keeper of his better nature.  I liked that part and look forward to Pod and Brienne.  It would be pretty hilarious if they bump into the Hound and Arya, never knowing she's located Arya Stark.  

 

Yep. It would be a pretty circuitous plot otherwise, with the slimmest chance of success.

 

Did we know previously the translation of valar morghulis? I've been surprised how often we've heard the term since A Man told it to Arya.

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When Dany attacked the slaver way back when, he said it to her and she said something like "Yes, all men must die, but I'm not a man." (Or maybe it was cute slave girl who said it.)

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When Dany attacked the slaver way back when, he said it to her and she said something like "Yes, all men must die, but I'm not a man." (Or maybe it was cute slave girl who said it.)

 

Ah, thanks. I completely forgot that. Every time they say it I wish Jaqen were on the show again. Original recipe Jaqen, because I'm shallow.

 

It moved me that Ice--part of Ice--is now being used to protect a Stark. Those Starks have to keep a better eye on their direwolves, though--only Shaggy Dog is safe and with his person. That's a pretty crappy ratio.

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I wonder if Olenna even knows Littlefinger was angling to get Sansa under his control, or if perhaps he told her he'd whisk her away so she can later be smuggled to Highgarden to marry Loras after all. But secretly he has plans of his own... I think Sansa will be implicated to make her return to King's Landing impossible. The convoluted necklace situation was probably in order to implicate Sansa in the plot - she would be seen wearing the necklace, which later would be found to have contained the poison (perhaps the missing gem would be found, or they'd somehow connect the dead fool with the necklace and Sansa, etc). They could have gotten the poison there some other way but it wouldn't tie Sansa to the crime.

 

I am guessing the glass "jewel" containing the poison was probably hollowed out and could be opened to release the poison.


 

This skull-drinker, monologue-giver kinda came out of nowhere.  Did we ever meet him prior to this episode? I do like how Rast (thanks Unsullied Character Guide) killed Mormont and Craster only to end up serving an even worse piece of crap. That dude can't catch a break.

Yes he was in the episode where MOrmont was killed and was the one who insisted on calling Craster a Bastard and set off the whole rebellion.

 

And yeah I LOL'd that Rast is still taking orders.

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I wonder if Olenna even knows Littlefinger was angling to get Sansa under his control, or if perhaps he told her he'd whisk her away so she can later be smuggled to Highgarden to marry Loras after all. But secretly he has plans of his own... I think Sansa will be implicated to make her return to King's Landing impossible.

 

I don't think Olenna would have known LF was angling to get Sansa.  He's not the type to reveal all of his secret plans.  But I didn't think Olenna was the type to trust LF, so what do I know.

 

I also can't see how anyone would smuggle Sansa anywhere with plans to marry her to anyone since she's still currently married to Tyrion.  Unless he dies, she's off the marriage market for sure.  Plus, she's already implicated in the plot to kill Joffrey by virtue of having disappeared right after.  

 

That's why I don't understand at all what LF's plans are in kidnapping her.  She's already on the Post Office wall of Wanted criminals, so unless he plans to say he captured her after she fled after she killed Joffrey, I don't see what he can do with her legitimately, if that's the right word.  As far as we know, he's currently in good standing with the Lannisters and was going to the Eyrie to solidify the Arryn lands and army for Tywin and King Joffrey through marriage.  He would need to keep her hidden, because Tywin would want Sansa back at all costs. 

Edited by izabella

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I also can't see how anyone would smuggle Sansa anywhere with plans to marry her to anyone since she's still currently married to Tyrion.  Unless he dies, she's off the marriage market for sure.

 

Ahhh except that the marriage was known to be unconsummated! Am not sure whether being a suspect in Joffrey's murder would be a detriment to her claim on Winterfell or not...

 

Maybe he figures he can "find" Sansa later, report that back to the Lannisters and then propose he just quietly marry her off and keep her in exile, so while she won't be executed for her crime, they can still use her ancestry to claim the North with his help...?

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That's why I don't understand at all what LF's plans are in kidnapping her

 

Perhaps Sansa's safety was a condition from Lysa to marry Littlefinger? Perhaps implicating Tyrion and getting revenge for his escape in Season 1 was Littlefingers wedding gift to Lysa? This way LF proved to Lysa that he is able to protect her from the Lannisters?

 

Best part of the episode was Locke joining the NW. I wonder what happens when Locke learns the truth about the state of things North of the Wall. White Walkers, Army of the Undead, 100k Wildlings are all a threat to Boltons claim to Winterfell and the North (Especially as his army is still in the South and cannot get pas the Iron Islanders). Locke might actually reconsider killing Jon Snow and ask Bolton for help to fight the Wildlings.

Edited by arry the orphan

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See, I'm kind of wondering if Sansa will end up killing Littlefinger when he tries to force her to do something.  Since it's this show, that almost certainly means "tries to rape her" , but when Tyrion said, "Sansa is not a killer.  Yet."  It cut to Sansa in the hold of the ship with Littlefinger oozing over to her.   Made me wonder if the person who will take the "yet" to "now" is actually Littlefinger.  

 

Also, didn't realize that the people of that idiot city -- the one Dany just conquered Mereen? That's it? -- I didn't realize they'd nailed child slaves up as signposts.

 

Why in the world did they TRY and piss her off that much?  I'm glad it ended as well as you might expect, but ...duh.   

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See, I'm kind of wondering if Sansa will end up killing Littlefinger when he tries to force her to do something.  Since it's this show, that almost certainly means "tries to rape her" , but when Tyrion said, "Sansa is not a killer.  Yet."  It cut to Sansa in the hold of the ship with Littlefinger oozing over to her.   Made me wonder if the person who will take the "yet" to "now" is actually Littlefinger.

 

Hmm.. interesting spec. I do find this show loves to put in lines/scenes that become 100x more meaningful when you go back and watch them again later. I could see something like that going down, then rewatching the season and going "OMG! Tyrion said YET! YET! and like later she became a killer! OMG this show!!" have done that many times before. Like in S1E2 when Jaime says he'd prefer a "nice, clean death" to being a cripple. Ouch...

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Also, didn't realize that the people of that idiot city -- the one Dany just conquered Mereen? That's it? -- I didn't realize they'd nailed child slaves up as signposts.

 

Why in the world did they TRY and piss her off that much?  I'm glad it ended as well as you might expect, but ...duh.

I don't think that they did that do piss of Dany. They just use children as signposts to show travellers (customers?) the way to their city. Like the walk of punishment in the first city Dany conquered. Or the fact that every Unsullied was forced to kill a baby as part of their training. You know, normal slave city stuff............

Edited by arry the orphan

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I don't think that they did that do piss of Dany. They just use children as signposts to show travellers (customers?) the way to their city. Like the walk of punishment in the first city Dany conquered. Or the fact that every Unsullied was forced to kill a baby as part of their training. You know, normal slave city stuff.

 

Not to be gross...uh, grosser?...but they had to be fairly recently killed, because of how intact they were.  

 

Yup.  Felt weird and creepy just typing that.  So I don't think they just went out and mile marked the city with slaves every week.   Batten down the hatches, because as gross as the "they would decompose, particularly in a hot climate" thing is this will be worse in a lot of ways:  Financially it would be cost prohibitive when slaves are treated as goods to be bought and sold.  They'd be more likely to use old slaves for such a purpose.  

 

I now need to go shower after that series of thoughts marched grimly through my poor beleaguered brain. 

Edited by stillshimpy
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See, I'm kind of wondering if Sansa will end up killing Littlefinger when he tries to force her to do something.  Since it's this show, that almost certainly means "tries to rape her" , but when Tyrion said, "Sansa is not a killer.  Yet."  It cut to Sansa in the hold of the ship with Littlefinger oozing over to her.   Made me wonder if the person who will take the "yet" to "now" is actually Littlefinger.  

 

I don't see Sansa as a killer...yet...  But I am hopeful she might kill LF by accident!  Since Lyssa has that nice hole in the floor, maybe Sansa and LF will be standing near it when she trips over LF's megalomania and reaches out to steady herself but ends up knocking him over and into the hole. 

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Maybe he figures he can "find" Sansa later, report that back to the Lannisters and then propose he just quietly marry her off and keep her in exile, so while she won't be executed for her crime, they can still use her ancestry to claim the North with his help...?

 

Hmm. Hmm. That's intriguing. I can't really imagine the Lannisters, at least while Cersei's in the picture, going for that, but Littlefinger might have it in his head to keep Sansa off to the side for his own uses as the heir apparent to the North.

 

See, I'm kind of wondering if Sansa will end up killing Littlefinger when he tries to force her to do something.  Since it's this show, that almost certainly means "tries to rape her" , but when Tyrion said, "Sansa is not a killer.  Yet."  It cut to Sansa in the hold of the ship with Littlefinger oozing over to her.   Made me wonder if the person who will take the "yet" to "now" is actually Littlefinger.    

 

Well, they're going to the Eryie, with all its deadly drops. And Sansa did almost push Joffrey off a castle wall...

Edited by Shadowlass

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I do believe that it is possible to guess some things right and it's not exactly fair to cast stones at those who do. I'll say this for myself one last time: I haven't read the books and I know nothing. I've read a post saying you could see Olenna stealing the jewel and I caught her doing it on rewatch. And because I was looking for it, I saw it was still missing when she met LF. I believe the show does what it can to help us guess certain things in advance, and this was one instance. Now I agree this plot was very convoluted.

 

About the episode, I was immensely upset to see Hodor being treated that way. He's probably the one innocent adult in the 7 kingdoms. And I need someone to remind me who Locke is. I draw a blank on him.

 

 

I don't think that they did that do piss of Dany. They just use children as signposts to show travellers (customers?) the way to their city.

 

I agree. I don't think someone ran off to nail children to the signposts when they heard Dany was coming. The children were probably already there. We've only seen one girl, fairly well conserved, but that doesn't mean they were all in that state. I think Ser Barristan is a bit soft. Repaying injustice with mercy? Is he kidding?

 

And I'm glad Jaimie seems to be back on redemption path. I trust you, buddy!

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I don't see Sansa as a killer...yet...  But I am hopeful she might kill LF by accident!  Since Lyssa has that nice hole in the floor, maybe Sansa and LF will be standing near it when she trips over LF's megalomania and reaches out to steady herself but ends up knocking him over and into the hole.

 

Haha, that would be funny. Just as LF's schemes are coming together, and you are just sure that the End Game of the series includes some kind of showdown with LF... oops, he trips and falls out the Moon Door while backing away from Sansa, about 5 seasons before the show ends. That would be something this show would do...

 

And I need someone to remind me who Locke is. I draw a blank on him.

 

Best known for removing a hand from the Kingslayer. Last seen prior to this being ordered by Lord Bolton to head to the Night's Watch to track down Jon Snow in case he knew the whereabouts of the Stark boys.

 

We've only seen one girl, fairly well conserved, but that doesn't mean they were all in that state. I think Ser Barristan is a bit soft. Repaying injustice with mercy? Is he kidding?

 

Well, he may only have meant you don't have to be equally as brutal as the people you are seeking to punish. "Mercy" could just mean letting them rot away in a dungeon for the rest of their lives or (more fittingly perhaps) forcing them into "slavery" as prisoners, serving those who they enslaved. But not sinking to the same level of nailing them to wooden posts. If I'm not mistaken, it looked like the left hands were nailed THROUGH THEIR CHESTS also. YEOUCH.

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Also, someone mentioned that they were surprised that Jojen had epilepsy. They made this pretty clear in season 3. Meera put the leather strap in his mouth and told the Bran-Clan that the visions take their toll. He didn't pick a good time to have an attack. That's for sure.

 

Ah, that's true. I had forgotten, thanx!

 

I don't think that they did that do piss of Dany. They just use children as signposts to show travellers (customers?) the way to their city.

 

Nope, that was very clear a message to Dany, "Breaker of Chains". They knew she was coming, they were expecting her and they had killed all those children to mock her. Remember one of the slaves mentioned the children being killed? It'd be idiotic to use dead corpses as sign posts, because from an economical point, they'd be loosing slaves. Specially if they did this as a sign routinely that'd mean they'd have to change corpses all the time or the corpses would be skeletons. Nope, that doesn't make sense, not even for Hannibal Lecter.

 

Why in the world did they TRY and piss her off that much?  I'm glad it ended as well as you might expect, but ...duh.

 

Exactly! I really thought they had a secret weapon, like another dragon or something, because they kept pissing her off and they cannot even fight back? What the Hell? They know about her MASSIVE army and dragons, why on earth didn't they just surrender, try to negotiate like the other city or came up with a plan? Nope, they mock her nailing dead children to posts and literally pissing on her army and not even have something under their sleeve? Another stupid plot!

 

See, I'm kind of wondering if Sansa will end up killing Littlefinger when he tries to force her to do something.  Since it's this show, that almost certainly means "tries to rape her" , but when Tyrion said, "Sansa is not a killer.  Yet."  It cut to Sansa in the hold of the ship with Littlefinger oozing over to her.   Made me wonder if the person who will take the "yet" to "now" is actually Littlefinger.

 

Yes!! I hope this happens. On the other hand, now that you guys mention that Littlefinger cannot really do anything official with Sansa, like marrying her, and can only keep her hidden, I'm even more afraid for her! He can do to her whatever he wants and no one will even know....! Creepy. I didn't think I'd be more afraid for Sansa's safety than when she was with Joffrey.

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Perhaps Sansa's safety was a condition from Lysa to marry Littlefinger? Perhaps implicating Tyrion and getting revenge for his escape in Season 1 was Littlefingers wedding gift to Lysa? This way LF proved to Lysa that he is able to protect her from the Lannisters?

 

I'm curious about this wedding.  Did LF sail to the Eyrie, woo Lyssa, and now the happy bride-to-be is planning a wedding while LF goes away to poison Joff and kidnap Sansa?  Has he made his way to Eyrie and we never saw it?  I feel cheated if that's true.  I would have happily given up some Craster's House, Gilly's whorehouse, and Dany scenes to see that meeting with Lyssa.

 

Or has LF been hanging out on that ship for ages, waiting until Joff's wedding to poison him and kidnap Sansa? 

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A correction (to myself) on where Ghost was last seen... Ghost saved Sam at the start of Season 3, followed the Nights Watch survivors back to Craster's Incest Camp, and wanted nothing more to do with the place.

 

Also, the shot looking up through the ice altar past the baby was, I am pretty sure, one of the shots from Bran's "Tree Vision" from the last episode.

 

So Jaime discharged his sacred oath to Cat by giving Brienne a near-magical sword and a new suit of armor? I guess that a Maester of Law would point out that the Oath he took was to "return the Stark girls to Catelyn" and Cat is now dead and there was only one Stark girl in KL when he arrived (and that no one knows where she is now), but that seems a rather narrow view of an oath. Granted, the sword is priceless, but that seems to let Jaime off pretty easily.

 

I guess Brienne did also get a Pod.

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White,

As Jaime would say, "they make you swear oaths and more oaths." He's also sworn to be Kingsguard to Tommen... And (he may, may feel) sworn to help Tyrion.

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Also, the shot looking up through the ice altar past the baby was, I am pretty sure, one of the shots from Bran's "Tree Vision" from the last episode.

 

It sure seemed that way to me also.  I think the Zomponi shot was still the shot of one that Sam saw at the end of season two, but I thought the reflected face Bran saw was from this episode as that footage was playing I thought I recognized it.  

 

I think it's also possible that Jaime doesn't actually trust himself to follow through on that Oath.  I mean, he's not been very good at keeping any of them, perhaps it's just a knowledge of his own failings that had him handing off that responsibility to someone that he knew would keep her word unto death. 

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I adore Brienne, but her track record is not all that impressive. Sworn to Renly, he's gutted by SmokeBaby Baratheon. Sworn to Catelyn Stark, her throat is slit by Frey's men. Sworn to Jaime, he's mutilated after trying to protect her. Now she's sworn to Sansa? I'm not sure this will end well for either of them.

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I would have happily given up some Craster's House, Gilly's whorehouse, and Dany scenes to see that meeting with Lyssa.

 

 

Ditto, but only if the meeting with Littlefinger included her son.  Now that would have been an interesting scene.  :-)

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True, 90PercentGravity, but Pod has a better track record, so there's hope there.  

 

Plus, poor Brienne might be more motivated to succeed due to her rather lengthy list of failures at this point.  I also really like her, and I'm hoping that she and Pod can Land of Misfit Toys out a victory of sorts.  

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I also really like her... 

So she will be dead by the end of the season?

 

My mind is dark and full of terrors right now.

 

I continue to think Bran is safe (ish), but Brienne, Pod, direwolves, Reeds, Gilly, Hodor, all could be dead soon. Hell, I am even getting anxiety thinking about where Jon Snuh is headed and who is there. One of the Iron Rules of A Show seems to be that Stark Shall Never Reunite With Stark. I wonder if there is a "unless with a bastard named Snow" codicil to the Rule?

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So she will be dead by the end of the season?

 

Hehehe, well that does actually seem likely.  This story does not really have any rewards for being honorable in place.   So it seems likely to me that poor Brienne will perish. 

My mind is dark and full of terrors right now.

 

Yeah well, all I can say to that is, "That seems particularly appropriate."   

Edited by stillshimpy

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Well, ok, I'll give it to Jaimie that maybe he is concerned about Brienne and that's why he sent her to look for Sansa. He knows she could be in danger with Cersei around. Plus, he gets to help Pod get out of King's Landing, probably instructed by Tyrion. But I'm sure he really doesn't care about Sansa, he just wants Brienne safe.

 

I continue to think Bran is safe (ish), but Brienne, Pod, direwolves, Reeds, Gilly, Hodor, all could be dead soon.

You know who I'm more worried about in that group? Meera! Poor Meera, at that horrid place!!

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I'm traveling and so late to the party.  I still (thank the old gods & the new) got to see last night's ep.  So many great thoughts to respond to, sorry if I don't credit people with posting their original posts:

 

-The person who said that they are peeved at Jaime's rape of Cersei not even being mentioned: AGREED.  Incest rape is even worse than incest!!!  And I kind of can't believe that we're supposed to accept the Redemption Train is re-routing or chugging along again after he did that last ep!!!!!!  Are we supposed to forget it happened or something???!!!  Anyway, maybe it's just silly to speculate about Lannister actions, thoughts, emotions, or motives.  Except for Tyrion, they're just not very human.  Oh I'll include Tommen in the "human Lannister" category - he seems pretty normal so far.  

 

-Jaime and Brienne: mr. abelard is fully shipping them.  So hard, it's cute.  But WILL HE EVER BE WORTHY OF HER?  I think not.  I mean, how far can that Redemption Train really go?  If Jaime got enough of a conscience to wrap up Cersei in his arms and jump with her off of a KL parapet with her, that would be justice enough for me and as much redemption as I expect for either of them.  All that said, mr. abelard pointed out that Brienne is actually highborn, like Jaime, and conceivably they could marry without it being a big deal in that world.  So now I wonder if that will really happen.  For sure, I was seeing some feelings on Brienne's part, and something that passes for feelings in Jaime's face (no shade on the actor, I just am sooooo suspcious/doubtful whenever I see Jaime "feeling" something real), so who knows?  (Now Brienne will probably die some noble death saving Sansa and/or Arya.)

 

-Sansa is "not a killer...yet": Let me add many upvotes to those who want Sansa's first kill to be LF.  Oh, I can only hope.  It seems like this is not a world in which Sansa can get away with *not* killing *anyone*, frankly.

 

-Possible Stark reunions: Arya & Sansa at the Eyrie?  Bran and Jon at Camp Craster?  Summer and Ghost also at Camp Craster?  If any of those happen, I will be shocked and amazed since I am just plain convinced that this show means for no Starks to ever ever ever ever ever get back together.

 

-Will Dany use Mireen as her homebase and launch attacks on other slave cities from there?  They put the Targ flag up, that was pretty cool to see.  I wonder if she can be less nomadic now?  And now it almost feels like all she has to do is make a big speech, make sure the slaves are listening, send in Grey Worm with like 20 other guys with swords, and graffiti "Kill the Masters" on some walls, and she's done!  Easiest conquering job ever.  

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