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S10.E17: The Comic-Con Conundrum

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“The Comic-Con Conundrum” – With Koothrappali cut off from his father’s fortune, he appoints Sheldon to help him get out of debt. Also, Penny considers joining Leonard at Comic-Con, on THE BIG BANG THEORY, Thursday, Feb. 23 (8:00-8:31 PM, ET/PT) on the CBS Television Network.

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The last scene would have been funnier if they haven't given it away in the commercials.

It was big of Raj not to take Howard and Bernadette's money for watching the baby and for sticking to his resolve to take charge of his finances. That's the best scene we've seen for his character in a long time.

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It’s funny when men are treated like children by their emasculating wives who make them do chores in order to get a treat. It’s funny when men wear aprons because that’s so girly and being girly is lame, amirite?

It’s funny when a married couple is unable to have a basic conversation and this results in endless toxic fights.

It’s funny that a character who is obsessed with his appearance continues to dress like a 90-year-old man for absolutely no reason other than it says so in the script. 

So much fresh humor and wit. We’re so lucky that we have 3 more seasons of this to look forward to.

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Finally a bit of progress with Raj.  That's a plus.  Found both the Howard/Bernadette and Penny/Leonard lines to be pretty much what we've been getting lately.

At this point I think it would be really helpful if we had some shows where it was just the guys hanging out together and the ladies with each other.  When the writers focus on the relationships this show seems to get mean spirited and that is so not what TBBT should be about.  It's light hearted fun, not an episode of Rosanne.

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11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The last scene would have been funnier if they haven't given it away in the commercials.

I kept thinking they must have cut the scene, then when they went to the last commercial I realized it was going to be the last scene.

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1 hour ago, GrtGzu said:

still don't understand what Raj does with his paycheck though...

Spends it on stuff. Lots of stuff. A $300 baby cape for example. And gourmet food. And beauty/grooming products. And kites, and computers, and comic books, and toys, and his share of takeout nearly every night, and costumes, and video games, and stuff for Cinnamon. I get that Raj is probably earning a sizable paycheck but he's never once in his life had to worry about living within his means. His Dad was paying for his apartment, his car lease (and maybe his insurance too) and his one credit card but that doesn't mean Raj wasn't paying for other things in cash because he had it on hand or using his "emergency" credit card for stuff. He also has a housekeeper and a dog walker, both of whom I assume he was paying in cash. And all those service providers would be getting tipped in cash too. So assuming he has no savings (and he obviously wasn't paying off the emergency card in full every month) and suddenly he has to use his paycheck to pay for his apartment, car, debt repayment and monthly expenses. Let's assume he's locked into a lease agreement on the apartment so he's stuck there until its up or he'll have to pay a penalty to get out. And even if he's month to month, moving is an expense in itself so if he can cut spending elsewhere and stay where he is that's probably the smarter move. Same for the car if its leased so he has to eat those expenses. (And I assume its a car lease because if Raj owned the car, I can't imagine he'd have a loan since Dad would have just paid for it outright.) If he really rented a place way beyond his means because of its location and got a nicer car that right there is a huge expense that he has to deal with every month. Add in things like food, grooming, entertainment etc. and I can see Raj burning through even a larger paycheck.

And its not that its impossible to live on what Raj should be earning because most of us could in an instant. It's that Raj has made a few bad choices when he didn't have to worry about money and isn't used to living in his means so it'll mean an adjustment period and the need to make some real changes. If he'd just rented in a cheaper neighbourhood or paid off that emergency credit card when he had the chance or stored away a couple hundred dollars every paycheck before he went shopping, he'd be fine now. I know we all rag on the money stuff in this show, but I find it very believable that even someone earning a lot of money can land themselves in debt. It's never about how much you make but about how much you take in and how much you spend.

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This whole storyline is way too much FRIENDS for me (Rachel cutting herself off from her father's money in season 1; Joey later on).

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This episode was a lot better than most and that's setting the bar low. In a way, since I stopped going to Comic Con myself for similar reasons, I kinda connected to it. 

I hate. Hate. Hate. the cliche of couples who refuse to just be adults and talk things out. They've known each other ten years, it's time to start being a bit honest. 

I did have a few chuckles though, Howie and Bernadette was hilarious and their generosity was amazing. 

Raj was improved this episode. 

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57 minutes ago, dungeonwriter said:

I did have a few chuckles though, Howie and Bernadette was hilarious and their generosity was amazing. 

I thought it was funny when Stuart was wondering where his babysitting money was, and Bernadette shut him down with "You live here for free", and he was all "Yes, ma'am" or whatever it was he said.

Agree it was a better episode than most, although that isn't saying much these days.

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1 hour ago, Trey said:

As though the show isn't short enough already, they've started showing "previouslies" at the beginning.

Previouslies before and ads for the show during the show.  I'm about to give up.

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I'm so tired of the "girls just won't like comic con" bits. Certainly Penny won't geek out to the extent that Leonard and the guys would, but if nothing else it's a huge spectacle and it's in San Diego. Granted they live in Pasadena so not the same draw as it was for me coming from Wisconsin, but still, San Diego! I'm sure Penny could find plenty to occupy herself if she wasn't going to all the panels that the guys wanted to go to. And the panels, they're not just nerdy comic book ones, there are tv show panels and movie panels, lots and lots of big stars, etc. Again, not totally Penny's scene, but the whole girls won't like it is just old and frankly sexist. So that was irritating on top of their just not talking to each other.

Otherwise pretty meh.

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9 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

I'm so tired of the "girls just won't like comic con" bits. Certainly Penny won't geek out to the extent that Leonard and the guys would, but if nothing else it's a huge spectacle and it's in San Diego. Granted they live in Pasadena so not the same draw as it was for me coming from Wisconsin, but still, San Diego! I'm sure Penny could find plenty to occupy herself if she wasn't going to all the panels that the guys wanted to go to. And the panels, they're not just nerdy comic book ones, there are tv show panels and movie panels, lots and lots of big stars, etc. Again, not totally Penny's scene, but the whole girls won't like it is just old and frankly sexist. So that was irritating on top of their just not talking to each other.

Otherwise pretty meh.

Here's my thing and I'm probably wrong: If you know comicon is gonna be hella crowded and all the hotels will be booked? Why not book your hotel like a year, 2 years in advance? While you're there, say, why not book for next year and book 2 rooms while you have a chance? Or book rooms in several hotels so you'll have choices?

Didn't they not-go to comicon last lear (James Earl Jones episode...WAS that last year? These shows all bleed together after awhile) because they Couldn't Get Tickets? They went online the moment ticket sales opened and they sold out in like 37 seconds, or something.

And now, suddenly, it's dead-easy to not only GET tickets, but get last-minute tickets for the wife.

I don't know...I'm kinda over this show...I may be out after this lackluster episode.

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3 minutes ago, Pop Tart said:

Again, not totally Penny's scene, but the whole girls won't like it is just old and frankly sexist.

While they may have been inspired by the trope, the writers made a pretty good case for each.  To add to the argument for Penny, it's likely she'd get recognized as the Serial Ape-ist girl, and she had her fill of nerdy fans at the signing event.

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Once again, the really only funny scene happens at the very end. That's two weeks in a row.

When Howard walked into the kitchen, Bernadette said she was making lasagna, but she was chopping red bell peppers. Red bell peppers in lasagna? I've have several lasagna recipes, my family is Italian, and I have never heard of using red bell peppers in lasagna. 

Now, I'm sure someone will come along and post "oh yes, we put red peppers in our lasagna all the time!" But wouldn't it have made more sense if she was chopping tomatoes? 

The problem is - on TV, "chopping peppers" is always short-hand for "cooking." Doesn't matter what someone is supposed to be making, they are always chopping peppers. Probably because it's the easiest thing to chop for a TV scene - not messy, no fumes, won't spoil quickly under the hot lights. But the script should have said she was making a stew or something that made more sense if they were going to use peppers.

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12 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

When Howard walked into the kitchen, Bernadette said she was making lasagna, but she was chopping red bell peppers. Red bell peppers in lasagna? I've have several lasagna recipes, my family is Italian, and I have never heard of using red bell peppers in lasagna. 

 

OMG - that drove me crazy.  Peppers in lasagna.  They could have said some other dish where it would have made sense for her to be chopping peppers.  But not lasagna.  Apparently no one associated with the show cooks.

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6 hours ago, wendyg said:

This whole storyline is way too much FRIENDS for me (Rachel cutting herself off from her father's money in season 1; Joey later on).

THANK YOU!  I knew I had seen this somewhere else...

Honestly, the only time I laughed was in the last scene with Sheldon and Amy--not that I thought the scene was funny, but the execution sold it.

Sigh...Penny and Leonard are just depressing me.

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46 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

When Howard walked into the kitchen, Bernadette said she was making lasagna, but she was chopping red bell peppers. Red bell peppers in lasagna? I've have several lasagna recipes, my family is Italian, and I have never heard of using red bell peppers in lasagna.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought that was odd.  I Googled it, and apparently there are some lasagna recipes that have bell peppers in it.

Alternatively, they could have been for an accompanying salad.

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59 minutes ago, sadiegirl said:

Apparently no one associated with the show cooks.

Or has happy marriages.

Or knows anyone in academia.

Or knows any adult women.

Or... yeah it's just sad...

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3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

When Howard walked into the kitchen, Bernadette said she was making lasagna, but she was chopping red bell peppers. Red bell peppers in lasagna? I've have several lasagna recipes, my family is Italian, and I have never heard of using red bell peppers in lasagna. 

Bernie isn't Italian. I presume the chopped peppers would be mixed with the ground beef.

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Vegetable lasagna. You can put anything in that. My personal favorite is yellow zucchini and broccoli, especially broccoli stems. It's very good.

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I watched this episode with a stopwatch in one hand and the DVR remote in the other. The episode, including "previouslies" and the entire ending credits, ran 19 minutes 13 seconds. Without the bookends, less than 18 minutes. That's a lot of commercials.

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Not a perfect episode but one with some good character growth: Raj turning down the money and the guys deciding that maybe it's time to let go of comic-con. I also enjoyed mean but business savvy Stuart. My favorite moment was Sheldon's outrage about the term 'concealer'.

Edited by MissLucas
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Raj decides not to go to Comic-con because he is trying to be responsible with his money.  Howard decides not to go because he is a father now, with a wife.  Leonard decides not to go because, I don't remember why, probably because he is mooning over Penny in some way I suppose.

It strikes me that this is kind of symbolic of how the old show about the nerds is dead, and has been replaced by the new "Friends"-like show about the relationships.  Unintentionally, of course.

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Not a bad episode at all (I am beginning to realize that I like this show a lot more than most of you posting here :) )!!  Anyway some good lines and I agree with MissLucas that there was some good character growth here with the guys all realizing that maybe you don't actually need to go to comic-con every single year for the rest of your life!  Well except for Sheldon of course.  I particularly liked that Penny and Leonard were doing the "I want to make the other person happy even if I'm not" dance.  And I like the way it got resolved so quickly.  Now granted that's partly because the show is so short but on another show Sheldon and Amy realizing what was going on would have led to a lot of time spent waiting for the big reveal but instead it all came out fairly quickly.  Which is a lot more realistic IMO.

Edited by BlossomCulp
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I really liked this episode.  I liked that the conflict with Penny and Leonard was because they were each trying to make the other person happy.  I laughed at Sheldon's comments to Leonard about honesty and Amy's 'beauty mark' really being a mole.  I thought Sheldon and Amy were funny throughout the episode.  I was happy with the way the whole P/L situation resolved.

Howard and Bernadette were cute together.  I didn't mind the dynamic there because Howard was the one who said he would do everything, and I'm glad she actually held him to it.  They just had a baby together, so there's more to consider when leaving for a five day trip like that now.  I liked the growth that everyone had choosing different priorities. 

So for me it was a good episode, and I had some laughs.  I FF through the commercials, so I don't care about the length of it.  I'm good as long as it's funny. 

ETA: Mayim's reactions at the end were perfect!

Edited by AnnaRose
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20 hours ago, sadiegirl said:

OMG - that drove me crazy.  Peppers in lasagna.  They could have said some other dish where it would have made sense for her to be chopping peppers.  But not lasagna.  Apparently no one associated with the show cooks.

In the writer's room:

Writer A: Hmm, we should have them cooking something

Writer B: How about lasagna?  I just had some at Denny's last night.  Delicious.

A: Lasagna it is.  We can have Bernie cutting up stuff to put in it.  What's in it?  How about cheese?

B: Yeah, there was cheese, but I don't think we have a grater on the set. There were also some chunks of red things.  I don't know what they are called.

A: Must have been red peppers.

B: Last night's lasagna was a little hot, it must be red peppers.

20 hours ago, OtterMommy said:

Honestly, the only time I laughed was in the last scene with Sheldon and Amy--not that I thought the scene was funny, but the execution sold it.

 

18 minutes ago, AnnaRose said:

ETA: Mayim's reactions at the end were perfect!

Oh great! I am realizing now that I must have stopped watching at the last commercial.  What happened at the end?

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3 hours ago, rmontro said:

Raj decides not to go to Comic-con because he is trying to be responsible with his money.  Howard decides not to go because he is a father now, with a wife.  Leonard decides not to go because, I don't remember why, probably because he is mooning over Penny in some way I suppose.

It strikes me that this is kind of symbolic of how the old show about the nerds is dead, and has been replaced by the new "Friends"-like show about the relationships.  Unintentionally, of course.

I'm so torn about this. I attended the Philadelphia Comic-Con (my local one) for years, but stopped because, as it got better known and attracted a more A-list panel of guests, both the lines and prices quadrupled (or worse). Since I make less money than the guys, I gave it up. Even when I can afford it, I'd rather spend money doing something more fun than standing in line in an overheated room. Plus, it does get repetitive after a few years. So I appreciate that Raj made the responsible choice, which prompted some reflection from Leonard and Howard. Though I also take the position that part of the guys' enjoyment of Comic-Con is experiencing it with each other, and part of their decision was rooted in not wanting to go without Raj. 

However, this show has often taken the position that geek culture is for children, and letting go is part of growing up. So, while I liked the tack taken in this episode, I fear it's part of the problematic overall trend of the narrative that the guys will give up all their geeky hobbies and interests in order to grow as boyfriends/husbands/fathers. I know people who are at least, if not more, devoted to college and/or professional sports teams as the BBT guys are to their geek stuff, and they go to games, host viewing parties, and are known to be unavailable for anything not sports related during various points in the year. It's a whole family affair, and it's not considered immature or excessive in the least. So if you can be a responsible, mature adult while still being a diehard sports nut, the same holds true for geeks. 

I'd love it if we got some indication that, this year aside, Comic-Con remains a treasured tradition for the gang, and their kids. Who wouldn't melt seeing Haley someday in a tiny Batgirl costume next to Howard dressed as Batman?

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12 minutes ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

However, this show has often taken the position that geek culture is for children, and letting go is part of growing up. So, while I liked the tack taken in this episode, I fear it's part of the problematic overall trend of the narrative that the guys will give up all their geeky hobbies and interests in order to grow as boyfriends/husbands/fathers. I know people who are at least, if not more, devoted to college and/or professional sports teams as the BBT guys are to their geek stuff, and they go to games, host viewing parties, and are known to be unavailable for anything not sports related during various points in the year. It's a whole family affair, and it's not considered immature or excessive in the least. So if you can be a responsible, mature adult while still being a diehard sports nut, the same holds true for geeks. 

If I could, I would like this so many times!  You can still enjoy comic books and sci-fi and whatnot and be a responsible adult-type person, and I hate that this show doesn't seem to think that's true.

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4 hours ago, rmontro said:

Raj decides not to go to Comic-con because he is trying to be responsible with his money.  Howard decides not to go because he is a father now, with a wife.  Leonard decides not to go because, I don't remember why, probably because he is mooning over Penny in some way I suppose.

It strikes me that this is kind of symbolic of how the old show about the nerds is dead, and has been replaced by the new "Friends"-like show about the relationships.  Unintentionally, of course.

I agree. I enjoyed the nerd/science shows more. I also enjoyed the addition of the lady science nerds (it you call them that ) Berny and Amy.

They missed Comic Con .....awwww.

It wont surprise me when the commercials take up more minutes than the show. It is unwatchable in real time. (imo)

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I don't know if I agree that the guys aren't supposed to like "geeky" stuff as they get older.  They still show them at the comic book store and they still go see Star Wars movies as they come out (and make it clear they are going to see them multiple time).  I don't have a problem at all with guys pushing 40 putting their love of collectibles, comics, sci/fi movies etc into a compartment of their lives and focusing more on their relationships, jobs etc.  It makes sense to me as well that they'd have less money to spend in these areas, or at least choose to spend less money that way.  

I have friends my age (male and female BBT writers!!!)  who look forward to the comic-con show here every year and they "get their geek on" by going, they watch Dr Who and they love Star Trek (just to name a few "geeky" interests) but they're not spending a lot of time and money on a daily basis on those interests.  They also aren't spending hours and hours playing Dungeons and Dragons or any of the other games the guys used to play.  I guess what I am seeing is the guys getting more balance in their lives, which may not be as funny or endearing but it's a lot more like real people than if they were still showing the guys living the same lifestyle they lived 10 years ago.

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I said the same thing aloud to Mr. Ouisch when Bernadette was chopping up a red bell pepper. "For lasagna?!" Mr. Ouisch likewise replied "Maybe it's vegetable lasagne." (I've only ever had traditional lasagne....oh, and eggplant lasagne - just once!, so I don't know what vegetables are included in a traditional recipe. It seems to me, though, that bell pepper is sort of an overwhelming flavor, which is why I prefer to use it sparingly....   That is, I can eat bell peppers raw all day and enjoy them, but put them on a pizza and all I taste is pepper....it's stronger than even the pepperoni or anchovies.

And I'm not too fond of the new "message" that adults should wean themselves away from so-called childish pursuits. Truth is, when I was young I could never afford to buy trendy clothes, cool collectables, tacky neon lights and lava lamps, etc. It was only once I was much older and had enough disposable income after paying all my bills that I started to actually indulge in buying neato stuff like that.

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No, you don't give it up, you share it with your kids.  But this also part of what annoys me with the show that none of the guys have a girlfriend or wife that shares their interest.  Yes, there are women geeks, speaking of one myself.  And my daughters loves comics, superheroes, sifi and fantasy too and we play games every week.  

Maybe Raj will be the lucky guy. That would open up some new story lines if one of the groups females wants to join the guys games and such instead of doing stuff with the other gals. 

Edited by Hanahope
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I could understand "the gals" not being into Dungeons and Dragons and comic books but that not one of them, NOT ONE, seems to have watched Star Trek  (in any of it's incarnations) or Star Wars is just ridiculous!  Sure not getting totally nuts over the movies and buying toys and collectibles, ok, but not even watching them or wanting to see the new movies when they come out?  C'mon!!  The only "geeky" type thing I can recall any of the women liking offhand is Harry Potter.  I guess they got a pass on that one with the writers.

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Here is an idea for the show :  you could actually show them GOING TO COMIC CON and AT COMIC CON, which would be far more interesting than an entire episode centered around arguing about comic con. 

Plus comic con seems to be fairly mainstream anymore, so I'd hardly say its that geeky to go. 

I like the growth by Raj, but its once again an episode where these people don't actually do much except sit around and talk and argue about things they are going to do or might do. 

17 hours ago, Minaboo said:

I watched this episode with a stopwatch in one hand and the DVR remote in the other. The episode, including "previouslies" and the entire ending credits, ran 19 minutes 13 seconds. Without the bookends, less than 18 minutes. That's a lot of commercials.

That is just ......pathetic, really. 

I recall in the last years of Friends someone calculated how much actor was making for each line they delivered.  I'd be curious to figure that out for this show, must be a huge number for little work given that its less than 18 minutes, there are 8 characters, if you include Stuart, though he doesn't get much to say, a few lines.  Its like 3 or 4 minutes of dialogue for each of them, max, some of them less than that each week.  Sheldon gets more lines, so factor that in and I bet the others get about 2-3 minutes each total. 

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17 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Plus comic con seems to be fairly mainstream anymore, so I'd hardly say its that geeky to go.

Honestly, it seems that "geeky" has become a meaningless word (same goes for "nerdy"). Star Wars. Star Trek. Lord of the Rings. Doctor Who. Harry Potter. Pretty much every freaking superhero movie. These are not some cultural niches that only the downtrodden nerds of the world enjoy. They are multi-billion dollar cultural juggernauts with fanbases reaching into the hundreds of millions. The new Star Wars movies just had the biggest global opening in history. I'd like for anyone to explain how liking Star Wars is anything but mainstream. (And this doesn't just apply to movies and TV. Things like ComicCon. Cosplaying. Magic: The Gathering. Anime. Comic books. LEGO. Action figure collecting. What was once nerdy is now completely mainstream and popular.) "Oh you like Star Wars? What a loser, you must have no life," said no one ever in 2017.

This show seems weirdly old-fashioned in that respect. It reminds me of something old and stupid like Saved by the Bell, where the "nerds" where social pariahs wearing black-rimmed glasses and were shunned for daring to know who Spock was. Come on, it's 2017. Everyone is at least familiar with these huge pop culture phenomena (and come to think of it, black-rimmed glasses are everywhere too).

"Nerdy"/"geeky" seem more like marketing terms more than anything now.

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1 hour ago, CleoCaesar said:

This show seems weirdly old-fashioned in that respect. It reminds me of something old and stupid like Saved by the Bell, where the "nerds" where social pariahs wearing black-rimmed glasses and were shunned for daring to know who Spock was. Come on, it's 2017. Everyone is at least familiar with these huge pop culture phenomena (and come to think of it, black-rimmed glasses are everywhere too).

I don't think knowing who Spock is makes you a nerd.  It's the level of preoccupation.  If your life revolves around Star Wars, that's different than having watched and enjoyed the movie.  But I agree geek is much more mainstream now - which was the point of the 21 Jump Street plot.

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I think they really blur the line sometimes between people who are interested in something as opposed to people who are obsessed.  These guys are obsessed.  Lots of people like Star Trek.  Not that many of them speak Klingon!

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On 2/24/2017 at 0:37 PM, LoneHaranguer said:

While they may have been inspired by the trope, the writers made a pretty good case for each.  To add to the argument for Penny, it's likely she'd get recognized as the Serial Ape-ist girl, and she had her fill of nerdy fans at the signing event.

This would have been so much better than the actual episode. You would have to modify the episode a little to make this work, but it would be a massive improvement. At first, Penny is willing to go to Comic-Con for Leonard to make him happy, and because he's been going to stuff for her that he isn't a big fan of. Leonard senses she isn't that excited, and rattles off the reasons he suspects she's changed her mind (the crowds, the panels that don't interest her, the cramped hotel room), and she says "Yep, that it's it," but Leonard suspects there's something more, and wants to know what's wrong. Finally she admits that she's worried about being recognized for "Serial Ape-ist."

Edited by Sarah 103
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1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Here is an idea for the show :  you could actually show them GOING TO COMIC CON and AT COMIC CON, which would be far more interesting than an entire episode centered around arguing about comic con. 

I love this idea. I've always thought a great series finale would be Amy and Sheldon getting married at Comic-Con. Not necessarily getting married at the hotel, but getting married nearby while still in costume.

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One of the things I loved about this episode was Amy absolutely refusing to go to Comic-Con.  Her days of dressing in costumes to please Sheldon are clearly over so I don't think there's much chance of a wedding in costume pretty much anywhere!

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Good episode, I liked it, especially liked that they are giving Raj more to do than screw up with women, but as usual I seem to have missed something.  When did Stuart move back in with Howard and Bernadette?

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46 minutes ago, BlossomCulp said:

One of the things I loved about this episode was Amy absolutely refusing to go to Comic-Con.  Her days of dressing in costumes to please Sheldon are clearly over so I don't think there's much chance of a wedding in costume pretty much anywhere!

I think Amy would love a renaissance themed wedding!

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On 2/24/2017 at 10:15 AM, Trey said:

As though the show isn't short enough already, they've started showing "previouslies" at the beginning.

Not only are they showing "previouslies", they're not even cutting out unnecessary material.  All we need to know is that Raj's father thinks he's spoiled, and Raj won't take any more money from him.  We don't need to see everyone's reactions and comments to those things.

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I too thought the props people blew it by providing a red bell pepper to support the idea of making lasagne, even though I used to put green bell peppers in the tomato sauce I used for lasagne (and pizza and spaghetti). But then I thought it sounded like a potentially tasty addition. Maybe the script originally had Howard offering to make the lasagne that he knew was already in the oven, and Bernie said the salad still needed preparation. Anyway, red bell peppers are sweet, not hot.

They should have saved the Leonard and Penny plot for Christmastime since it was an updated take on The Gift of the Magi; I think it might have been more appreciated then for what it was. 

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