S01.E02: Serious Mothering

[MaryWebGirl]

20 minutes ago, nara said:

Lots of crazy characters,  but for some reason Nathan and Bonnie annoy me the most. Not a particularly insightful comment but had to get it off my chest.

No, I think this is insightful! At this point they're both basically caricatures, and it's hard to get too deep with characters like that.

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, nara said:

Lots of crazy characters,  but for some reason Nathan and Bonnie annoy me the most. Not a particularly insightful comment but had to get it off my chest.

 

It would be nice to get scenes of them together.  It's hard to know if they were actually plotting to annoy Madeline by attending yoga, for example. It would also be nice to see if Bonnie actually hates Madeline, wants to be her friend, or just tolerates the bullcrap because of the kids.

Without knowing her better, it is difficult to read her reaction to Madeline's tirade re: birth control. Was she covering for Abigail? Truly ashamed?  Pissed off? Embarrassed? WHAT?? LOL

[FemmyV]

12 hours ago, Gwen-Stacys said:

I don't necessarily agree with Bonnie actually taking her to PP (she should've nudged her in her birth parents' direction). But I can understand her reasoning for doing it. Abigail was going to do it any way, at least someone was there with her that has a relative wealth of BC knowledge that isn't the doctor.

Nope. This was a boundary that Bonnie needed to respect, as step-parent and she failed to. Let alone, in a situation with this much tension:

Day 1: You sign a complaint about a theatrical production that turns out to be headed by your husband's resentful Ex. Crap. Not really your fault, though.

Day 2: You are asked to take the offspring from your husband's previous relationship with said resentful and now even more pissed off

Ex, to PP.

Option 1: Explain that it would be unacceptable behavior on both your parts, and tell her she needs to go with someone else (the list of which could have included Nathan, Maddie, or someone in her class with their own car), or take an Uber or taxi.

Option 2: Take the kid to PP. After all, even though she's not in a sexual relationship at this time, that could change at any minute and should be considered an urgent matter.

Option 3: Take the kid ... and whine to your husband when his resentful ex confronts you.

Spoiler talk:

Spoiler

Knowing Bonnie's background doesn't change this. Maddie was confrontational, but nothing she said was out of line.

11 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Nathan:  "I thought it would be indelicate to bring it up with Maddie.  That's why I'm bringing it up with you."  

Ed:  "Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan.  Are you threatening me?"  

I agree, it was oddly worded, but think the threat Ed inferred was along the lines of, 'if you don't get your wife to behave, I will."

[WhosThatGirl]

Yes, I'm also fully on Madlines side, regarding the planned parenthood thing. Abigail may view Bonnie as an older sister figure, but she isn't her sister. And Bonnie had to have known this would be an issue for Madeline. It's already tense with them, why she chose to take her, I will never know. And I agree, she should have told Abigail, "I'm glad you want to protect yourself but I can't be the person taking you. You should talk to your father or mother about this or talk to one of your friends to take you or find another way" and also, no matter if she chose not to take her, if she really wants to try and build peace bridges with Madeline, she should have told her Abigail had come to talk to her about this issue. No matter what, Abigail had talked to her so she knew Abby would find a way to get them. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

I wonder how Abigail feels about her dad.  I wonder if she has any lingering resentment.

Despite Abigail's teenage brattiness towards Madeline, she seems fairly observant and shrewd about the relationships around her so I would imagine that even though she seems to spend time with Nathan, Bonnie, and Skye, she still knows that Nathan was a dick. She seemed to have a twinge of resentment when she was talking to her mom and Chloe came in, so it will be interesting to see if she has any jealousy about Skye, the daughter her dad bothers to show up for (what are the odds that he was there for Abigail's first day of school?). Even though she seems to channel most of her angst towards Madeline, I think she probably still feels protective of her mom and at least a little resentful of her dad for the way that Madeline had to struggle as a single parent for a few years. I don't know what the financial situation is (like whether Nathan was paying any child support or alimony), but this is a community where two parent families are the norm so I would guess even if Madeine and Abigail had enough to eat, it was embarrassing for Abigail to be the kid with divorced parents.

[DarkRaichu]

On 2/26/2017 at 9:04 PM, PreviouslyTV said:

Or is he just 'The One'? And other not-quite-burning questions about E02.

View the full article

Quote

(Speaking of, what's with the caution tape outside the theatre?

I thought that was a safety thing?  The portion of the landing under the cones to the left has no cement on it.  Someone could trip on it should they use the stairways in the middle of the night

[Blissfool]

I was surprised by the speculation of an Ed/Abigail relationship. BUT after re-watching I'm thinking it might actually be correct. It was odd to show Abigail catching her parents in a tender moment. What is the reason to show her as she almost walks in on them.

[WhosThatGirl]

34 minutes ago, Blissfool said:

I was surprised by the speculation of an Ed/Abigail relationship. BUT after re-watching I'm thinking it might actually be correct. It was odd to show Abigail catching her parents in a tender moment. What is the reason to show her as she almost walks in on them.

I still don't think so. I just think she's aware of her mom being a lot to handle. She was even looking at them when they fought on the beach earlier on in the episode. I'm still speculating that she plans to ask to move in with her dad and Bonnie. 

As for her relationship with her father, I would say it's probably non existent. She probably doesn't talk to him much and he's probably very hands off with her. She also seems to view him as fun. Remember in the first episode she told Madealine that Nathan didn't go to college and he seemed happy personal wise. 

I also wonder how much she knows about Nathan being absent as Madealine said he was. Madealine probably protected her from it and now that Nathan is acting as an involved dad to Sky, maybe she assumes that's how he was with her. She also maybe assumed her mom is very type A and pushes everyone away when they don't conform I her wants and that's why her dad is so happy with Bonnie.

[stagmania]

On 3/1/2017 at 5:32 PM, mochamajesty said:

It would be nice to get scenes of them together.  It's hard to know if they were actually plotting to annoy Madeline by attending yoga, for example. It would also be nice to see if Bonnie actually hates Madeline, wants to be her friend, or just tolerates the bullcrap because of the kids.

I am very interested to find out more about Bonnie's state of mind. To me, the fact that Nathan decided to make himself a new family in the very same town in which he abandoned his first family is such a slap in the face that if I were Madeline or Abigail, I'd probably never get over it. Seriously, they can't live in another school district?! Given the circumstances, it seems really naive for Bonnie to think that she and Madeline could ever be more than civil, and I find it a bit odd that she seems to keep popping up and trying to be friendly. But maybe that's motivated by something genuine from her, especially if she's grown close to Abigail.

On 3/2/2017 at 3:31 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Despite Abigail's teenage brattiness towards Madeline, she seems fairly observant and shrewd about the relationships around her so I would imagine that even though she seems to spend time with Nathan, Bonnie, and Skye, she still knows that Nathan was a dick. She seemed to have a twinge of resentment when she was talking to her mom and Chloe came in, so it will be interesting to see if she has any jealousy about Skye, the daughter her dad bothers to show up for (what are the odds that he was there for Abigail's first day of school?). Even though she seems to channel most of her angst towards Madeline, I think she probably still feels protective of her mom and at least a little resentful of her dad for the way that Madeline had to struggle as a single parent for a few years. I don't know what the financial situation is (like whether Nathan was paying any child support or alimony), but this is a community where two parent families are the norm so I would guess even if Madeine and Abigail had enough to eat, it was embarrassing for Abigail to be the kid with divorced parents.

I am also super curious about Abigail's feelings towards Nathan. I wonder if we'll get more backstory about when he came back as a consistent presence in her life. If it was while she was still a kid, it tracks a lot better for me that she would forgive him and even develop a preference for him and Bonnie. Oftentimes abandoned children yearn most for love and closeness with the parent that left them, while resenting the parent that stayed. If he came back more recently, though, then her attitude would read as strange to me.

[dmc]

On 2/28/2017 at 11:33 PM, Slovenly Muse said:

Best thing about the show so far: The soundtrack! There are some really amazing musical choices being made here, and the whole thing sounds incredible.

Worst thing about the show so far: The fact that this amazing soundtrack is being delivered to us by Chloe, who is apparently being packaged as the tiny DJ of everyone's lives. Why? To call extra attention to the musical choices? All it's doing is calling attention to her wildly improbable taste in music! There is not a 6-year-old on the planet who, when put in charge of car music, would choose PJ Harvey over The Wiggles!

As to the birth control issue, nobody's really right or wrong here. Well, Abigail was right to get birth control, if she's ready to take that step, and she was right to go to someone she trusted to help her. Beyond that, this kind of issue isn't really about taking sides (who's in the right), as much as it's about understanding why everyone is reacting the way they are. Madeleine is upset and scared, as any parent would be, to find that their kid is moving into sexual territory, and they (the parent) don't know anything about it and are therefore losing control of their kid's life, and losing their ability to protect their kid, just when things are getting "real." Plus, she is jealous, as any parent in her situation would probably be, of the relationship/friendship her kid has formed with her new step-mom. She's afraid of Bonnie replacing her as Abigail's mom the same way Bonnie replaced her as Nathan's wife. It's not rational, but it's understandable. Bonnie overstepped, and Madeleine hit the roof.

Bonnie, as a step-parent trying to build a motherly relationship with her partner's aloof teenager, is understandably touched and excited that her step-kid has come to her, is trusting her, with something as big and personal as sexual health. Whether or not it's the responsible thing to do, no step-parent is going to turn down that kind of bonding opportunity! Should she have at least informed Madeleine of what Abigail had asked? Maybe... I actually think that was Nathan's job, as the primary co-parent of Abigail with Madeleine. But beyond that, from Bonnie's perspective, what WAS the responsible thing to do? If she had said, "you should talk to your 'real' mother about this, or maybe your father" then maybe Abigail would have not felt comfortable doing that and would have given up on the idea. Then the trust between Abigail and Bonnie would have eroded, Abigail could be caught without birth control when she needed it, and Abigail could be left feeling that she didn't have anyone in her family she could talk to about sex stuff, or that she has to keep any sexual experiences a secret from everyone lest one parent tell all the others, which is the LAST thing anyone wants for a teenager on the verge of becoming sexually active! Was it selfish of Bonnie to take on this role with Abigail without involving Madeleine? Absolutely. Was it the wrong thing to do? There's no way to know that. It's certainly a defensible, understandable choice.

I like the choice to make this issue a source of conflict between Madeleine and Bonnie. Because it IS one of those situations where there is no clear right answer, and it's such an overcharged emotional subject, it really shows off who both characters are as people and as parents.

It's certainly a defensible, understandable choice.  How is a defensible choice to take someone's else kid to planned parenthood when they mother is around and active in the person's life?  I actually think Madeline showed restraint because of someone did this with my daughter...I would have been beyond pissed.  Bonnie is falling into the step parent trap where she wants to be liked at the expense of sense.  That isn't parenting, it's a popularity contest.  All she had to do was tell Abigail to be honest with her parents-no need to break her trust.  It was most definitely the wrong thing to do and Bonnie isn't the only source of birth control.  It's not like if Bonnie wasn't involved, that is Abigail's last option. 

[Razzberry]

I wonder why Abigail isn't driving herself around at sixteen? I was down at the DMV on my birthday.

 

[mochamajesty]

19 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

I wonder why Abigail isn't driving herself around at sixteen? I was down at the DMV on my birthday.

 

I wondered that as well.  When Madeline asked, "Who took you?", I thought - "Why did anyone have to take her?".

It's not like they can't afford another vehicle.

[Mabinogia]

I'm pretty sure Madeline wouldn't want her daughter having that kind of freedom. She might actually do things Madeline doesn't pre-approve and clearly that isn't allowed to happen.

[chocolatine]

Has it been established that Abigail is 16? I was under the impression that she was 15, but I only watched each episode once, so I might have missed something.

[Razzberry]

I can understand not buying your kid a car at sixteen.  My parents didn't, but I wanted that license regardless.  It was like the first official step to becoming an adult in my mind.

I'm assuming she's sixteen, since I believe that's the legal age for obtaining birth control without parental consent.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Razzberry

[mochamajesty]

51 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Has it been established that Abigail is 16? I was under the impression that she was 15, but I only watched each episode once, so I might have missed something.

During the birth control convo, I thought Madeline said, "You are 16 years old - who prescribed them?". Or something like that.

[DarkRaichu]

Abigail did not have a car as she was riding in her friend's car in ep 1.  And when Madeline found out her reaction was "Why were you not in a bus?"

[ProudMary]

I just researched California regulations for driver licensing.  At 16, she would be on a provisional license where at least the first 50 hours behind the wheel have to be under the supervision of a licensed driver who is 25 or older.  The provisional license remains until 17 1/2 or 18, which would make it difficult even if one has friends who are a bit older.

It certainly looks as if Abigail would have needed adult assistance to get to Planned Parenthood.

[ProudMary]

4 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I don't think you're reading it right.  The 50 hours can start at age 15 1/2.  Once they get their license, they can drive alone.  

http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/teen-drivers.php

Yes, that's the exact thing I read.  Fifteen and a half is only if they take driver's ed, which throws another condition into the mix, hence why I chose 16.  Also because Abigail is 16 in BLL.  Additionally, the CA DMV site is a bit vague on what other restrictions are placed on younger teenage drivers until they are fully licensed at 17 1/2 or 18.  My point was that Abigail most likely needed to enlist the assistance of an adult to get to PP.  Or an Uber!

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I think the show said she's 16.  Anyone can get birth control in CA without consent.

 

This is true, I forgot they changed the law last year.  There's no minimum age, and they don't even need a doctor's prescription.  Any drugstore with a pharmacist will sell them over-the-counter, so to speak.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Yeah, that was really weird. Threatening to what? talk to him? I 100% prefer Ed to Nathan but that was such an odd thing to respond with.

I had no clue what Ed was talking about when he asked if Nathan's comment was a threat. 

I'm very much enjoying the show.  These women (except Nicole Kidman) would terrify me.   

[Atlanta]

I had a license at 16, but didn't get a car (a used compact) until my senior year of HS because I wanted a part time job (the job paid the car payments). However, we were lower middle class and not the demo of the peeps in this show. Georgia has gotten much stricter about licenses though. 

[Cardie]

Given how ballistic Madeline went over careless teen drivers, I doubt she'd even let Abigail get a license.

[stagmania]

Lots of teens don't get their licenses right away. 

[DarkRaichu]

Not to make light of the potential rape / rough sex scene, but as a long time watcher of True Blood I instinctively waited for a shot of fangs and bite to the neck :P

[retired watcher]

That first grade teacher is the worst. I taught first grade for many years and I would not have interrogated a child in front of a group of adults. Not is a family tree appropriate for first grade.

[Blakeston]

Regardless of whether Abigail has a license or not, or what kind of license she may have, there are plenty of ways for someone in her specific circumstances to get to a place where she can get birth control. It wasn't as if she specifically needed Bonnie's help to obtain it.

[Mabinogia]

1 hour ago, retired watcher said:

That first grade teacher is the worst.

She really is. I have to admit that, as obnoxiously adult as Chloe can be, I absolutely LOVED the eye roll she gave to Ziggy when the teacher was prattling on about the hippo. She had the perfect "is this idiot for real" look on her face.

I also rewatched the bit when Ziggy approaches Amabella and she looked like she was fine with it. So I wonder if she was okay with what happened but that the teacher, seeing it, freaked out which made Amabella think it was bad.

I feel terrible for these kids because their parents, mostly Renata and Madeline really, are using them to hurt the other adult. I mean, Madeline is actively trying to ruin a little girls birthday party. I mean, that's just really, really messed up. Go after Renata, fine, but I doubt it was Amabella's choice not to invite Ziggy. She probably wasn't even asked. And honestly, it makes sense not to invite him if Renata truly believes he strangled her daughter! Was it shitty to invite everyone else? Yep. Was it just as, if not more shitty to try to get no one to show up at a little girls party because her mother is a paranoid nutcase? yep. Neither of these two are going to be winning mother of the year any time soon. I just feel bad for the kids being used in their mothers' war.

[Gwen-Stacys]

On 3/2/2017 at 1:17 AM, FemmyV said:

Nope. This was a boundary that Bonnie needed to respect, as step-parent and she failed to. Let alone, in a situation with this much tension:

Day 1: You sign a complaint about a theatrical production that turns out to be headed by your husband's resentful Ex. Crap. Not really your fault, though.

Day 2: You are asked to take the offspring from your husband's previous relationship with said resentful and now even more pissed off

Ex, to PP.

Option 1: Explain that it would be unacceptable behavior on both your parts, and tell her she needs to go with someone else (the list of which could have included Nathan, Maddie, or someone in her class with their own car), or take an Uber or taxi.

Option 2: Take the kid to PP. After all, even though she's not in a sexual relationship at this time, that could change at any minute and should be considered an urgent matter.

Option 3: Take the kid ... and whine to your husband when his resentful ex confronts you.

Oh, I don't disagree at all. Bonnie crossed a boundary, I was simply saying I can understand why she did it, not that she was right to.

[Gwen-Stacys]

On 3/3/2017 at 1:46 PM, mochamajesty said:

I wondered that as well.  When Madeline asked, "Who took you?", I thought - "Why did anyone have to take her?".

It's not like they can't afford another vehicle.

 

On 3/3/2017 at 1:25 PM, Razzberry said:

I wonder why Abigail isn't driving herself around at sixteen? I was down at the DMV on my birthday.

You have to be 16 and some months to get a licence now (depending on the state). I know when I went to get my licence (a little over 10 years ago) the earliest you could get one 16 and a month (or 2?). My brother is almost a decade younger and the time period had definitely grown over 16 and a month

[ElectricBoogaloo]

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The actress who played the teacher played a depressed wife of a firefighter on This is Us recently, too.  I didn't like her character much there, either.  

She also played Beth on Gracepoint who was not a character I was fond of either. Another one of the characters is played by the actress who was the annoying reporter on Homeland last season so I was not thrilled to see her, but hopefully she will be less annoying than Laura was!

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing I really appreciate about Ed is that his concern was for the kids. He knows Renata is going to through an amazing party for Amabella and that Chloe won't want to miss it, which is more important to him than Madeline getting back at Renata. Later he told Madeline that what she was doing seemed unfair to Amabella too. I can understand why Madeline would be annoyed that he didn't automatically take her side, but I appreciate that he is thinking more about the kids' feelings.

[FemmyV]

On 3/2/2017 at 6:45 PM, WhosThatGirl said:

I also wonder how much she knows about Nathan being absent as Madealine said he was. Madealine probably protected her from it

Until it's in the script, I wouldn't bet on that. Madeline, so far, seems incapable of keeping a lid on her anger no matter what the cause. If she is able to shield her own emotions re: Nathan and allow Abigail to have her own opinion and feelings, with no guilt trips, she really is SuperWoman. But she's not. If there's one thing about Maddy I do dislike, it's the way she is trying to use Chloe as a social bargaining chip.

After watching this episode a few times, it really looks like Laura Dern is knocking it out of the ball park. All of them are, but Dern's hysterical when Renata's social mask falls off.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Me too.  Which makes me think that Ed's going to turn out abusive.  

Whenever I watch shows that revolve around murder (like Broadchurch), I start getting paranoid and thinking everyone is a lying cheating murderer (either because they're acting sketchy or because their lack of sketchiness seems suspect), so I can relate to your suspicion of Ed!

Usually as the season gets further along, my suspicions about everything and everyone grow. That guy's just staring out a window - I bet he's thinking about when HE MURDERED SOMEONE. That girl is eating a candy bar JUST LIKE  A MURDERER.

Edited March 5, 2017 by ElectricBoogaloo

[guilfoyleatpp]

My observations:

1) Madalynn or Madeline - Renata seems the type that would either a) passive aggressively mispronounce Maddie's name because Maddie was mispronouncing her daughter's name (as PP mentioned) or b) say Madeline's name in the "correct" way (perhaps the French?) knowing that's not the way Maddie' pronounces it, but doing it anyway to show she is superior.

2) Bonnie knew she effed up by taking Maddie's daughter to PP.  However, Abagail could have lied about how she got there. The fact that she didn't makes me wonder if Abigail knew that Maddie knew that Bonnie was involved.

3) Nathan is a dick. If he wanted to clear the air he should have spoken to Maddie.  But he didn't. Because he knew she would be hostile.  And why shouldn't she be? He knocked her up and then left her at a young age. He told Ed he was a kid.  I'm sure Maddie was a kid too.  She clearly didn't want to be a young, single mother. His whole "that was 15 years ago!" just indicates that he's not sorry about it. Self centered. 

4) That ancient stuffed animal going to everyone's house.  Blargh.  No. If that thing came to my house we could keep it in a plastic bag. It makes me think of the Velveteen Rabbit...in the crawling with disease type of way.

5) I definitely have an issue with invitations being handed out at school and not to the entire class.  My kiddo's pre-school had that rule. You had to invite everyone if the invitations were handed out at school. His kindergarten does not have that rule. I was so surprised when I found out. It is just not cool. 

[Clanstarling]

On 2/26/2017 at 4:34 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Madeline gets demerits for saying "between you and I." I hear this mistake all too often on tv so I blame the writers, the actors, and the director because NONE of them caught this error and fixed it. UGH.

I hate it too, though I tend to give it a pass in dialogue, since it's a common error in spoken language. However, the song at the beginning (Cold Little heart) has this lyric that drives me crazy:

Quote

I believe if I just try
You believe in you and I
In you and I
In you and I
In you and I

 

On 2/26/2017 at 11:58 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Most of the people in this community are overly PC which is why Bonnie said that her daughter "would never sanction a non-consensual touching," so it's not surprising to me that Amabella would ask if the hippo wanted to be hugged.

I'm not sure I'd consider teaching your kid about non-consensual touching is overly PC (I may be reading this incorrectly) My daughters are grown, but when they were little I didn't allow anyone to hold them unless they wanted to be held, and I continued to teach them about non-consensual touching (did not use those words, though).

On 2/27/2017 at 7:45 AM, teddysmom said:

Nathan's a landscaper I think, according to Ed's comments on this episode. 

I think I may have to get this book. I'm really liking the series. 

I thought Ed was a computer guy - didn't the guy at the coffee shop said he could help Jane set up a website? I thought he used "landscaper" as a joke - what I remember hearing was that his business was "Like landscaping..." wait for it "it's a growth industry."

 

On 2/27/2017 at 5:47 PM, dhilde85 said:

Kimmel was obnoxious with the name thing. Plus Mahershala Ali's full name is Mahershalalhashbaz! 

Mahershala has been shortening his credited name these days. From his credits, it looks like he stopped using the full name after he was on Treme.

43 minutes ago, guilfoyleatpp said:

4) That ancient stuffed animal going to everyone's house.  Blargh.  No. If that thing came to my house we could keep it in a plastic bag. It makes me think of the Velveteen Rabbit...in the crawling with disease type of way.

Me too. My daughter brought home lice (as did most of her classroom) because a hat in the costume bin was infested. This was as nice a school (well almost) as the one in the show. The thought of anything cuddly coming home with kids gives me the willies.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Clanstarling

[stillshimpy]

On 3/3/2017 at 7:31 AM, stagmania said:

I am very interested to find out more about Bonnie's state of mind. To me, the fact that Nathan decided to make himself a new family in the very same town in which he abandoned his first family is such a slap in the face that if I were Madeline or Abigail, I'd probably never get over it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm pretty torn on this one.  Who the heck leaves their wife and infant daughter and proceeds to loiter in the area for a decade and a half?  Commit, you feckless man, commit.   So there's that issue, of course, Madeline is going to be twitchy about having to watch him live out the part of a family man when he bailed on her.   Having a front row seat to the "stuff I promised to do with you but am instead doing with a lithe, younger woman...and seemingly going out of my way to bump into you..."  show can't be comfortable. 

On the other hand, both Nathan and Bonnie appear to be trying to build a family relationship with all the girls, going so far as to erroneously refer to Madeline's youngest daughter as their daughter's half sister.   

In terms of Abigail and birth control:  I think it's her right to decide and that pretty much everyone concerned had a completely understandable reaction.  I didn't think Bonnie was so solidly in the wrong but I did think that Madeline illustrated why Abigail wasn't beating down her door to talk to her about taking that step.  Talking about how she had never heard a woman say she wished she had sex earlier, while probably an entirely true statement, is a passive-aggressive way of replying "don't have sex"  to the issue of "talk to me about having sex, first".  Madeline made it clear how that talk would shake out.  Again, that's not an issue of right or wrong, it's just a well-layered scenario when I can see everyone's point of view and everyone seems to have behaved reasonably, even in being ticked off.  

Also, I did think that Nathan was giving off not-very-subtle bully-bro vibes when he was talking to Ed.  Starting by mocking Ed's little safety mirror in a way that made him sound like he was complimenting it, when really he was practically calling Ed a pencil-necked geek with almost everything he said.  It wasn't the sentence right before the "it sounds like you're threatening me"  that made for that entire vibe, it was everything.  Including summoning Ed to some kind of "chat about my ex-wife...oh yeah, your current wife and I want your help in manipulating her"  confab.  

When Abigail backed away from seeing her mom and Ed having a moment, I thought it was actually her way of encouraging them to get along well.  If Ed was having sex with Abigail, it makes more sense that  she'd barge right on in, cock-blocking with abandon, not withdrawing from the scene, at a guess.  

That's certainly something that is recommending this series, everyone is both good and awful, sort of like people in real life can tend to be.  

Except Perry who is just kind of wearing on me but I've gotten used to reacting to Alexander Skarsgard that way.  He always chooses roles that pretty far into the fields of jackass lore.  

They do seem to be making it clear that Ziggy is a product of rape and that Jane worries that he is manifesting some kind of genetic violence against women. 

I'm sorry I didn't pull all of the quotes for things I wanted to reply to but in regard to Amabella asking about "does he want to be hugged?" that felt like a way of setting the stage for "and now poor Ziggy will be on the hook for a sexual assault 'tried to kiss her' because it's clear that Amabella has been schooled on consent (good) but may not really understand the intricacies of it (wondering if the inanimate object has given consent) and thereby setting the stage for how a conciliatory gesture could just get all of the kids in more trouble.. 

Laura Dern continues to impress the hell out of me here because whereas I don't feel like we know Renata well at all, it feels like Dern has created an entire personal universe for her.   When she screamed "Thannnkkkk yooooooouuuuuuuu!"  at the secondary character who seemingly exists to stick her oar in and make things worse, it was awesomely unhinged.  

That she is actually a very active participant in this war with Madeline makes it more fun.  Threatening Madeline at the cocktail firepit and performing that passive-aggressive "Oh, hi!! Just saw you here, I'll now act like I'm delighted and pretend I think you'll be delighted to see me....and then I'll hiss like a cobra, it will be fun" dance was damned impressive.   

I love that Dern has made it clear that Renata views friendship and social acceptance, as well as peer approval of her mothering techniques to be just another acquisition.  It's all about power plays and appearances, padding out the successful woman's resume.   Madeline's in-your-face confrontation style is one that I personally favor and like.  Renata's more calculated maneuvering that includes outright threats (she threatened Ziggy also) is just a hair's breadth from fully unhinged.  Really good performance, I think. 

Edited March 5, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Laura Dern continues to impress the hell out of me here because whereas I don't feel like we know Renata well at all, it feels like Dern has created an entire personal universe for her.  

She is doing an amazing job because, due to the show being focused mainly on Madeline/Jane/Celeste, Renata is kind of the "villain" or at least the enemy of the piece, and yet, I find myself fascinated by and sometimes even sympathizing with Renata. Actually, I think I might sympathize with her more than Madeline. I find Madeline highly entertaining, but I do not find her sympathetic at all. I know she's gone through divorce, and raising her daughter alone, and I'm sure that was tough, but doing things like sabotaging a 6ish year olds birthday or bragging about how she works just enough so she can rub her stay at home status in other women's faces just makes her unlikeable as a person (though, like I said, highly entertaining).

[WhosThatGirl]

I chose Madealine over Reneta. Only because while I get that Reneta was protecting her daughter from ziggy, passing out the invites the way she did was rude. 

[stillshimpy]

Yeah, they're sort of in a dead heat for the cruelest mother of the pack, that's for sure.   You never do that, invite an entire class except for one child because it would crush that child in almost all circumstances.  On the other hand, Amabella (good grief, that name), is also a feeling being who doesn't deserve to be crushed because her mother's success apparently came at the cost of confusing all interactions as having a cutthroat business edge to them.  Renata doesn't appear to have conversations, she has discourse as a means to delivering a stabbing wound, as near as I can tell.  

But I agree with you, for all that, I can still feel for the characters.  For me, the fact that neither is any champion of all that is right and good for the sake of it, they are both working a power agenda with some worthy side causes attached, is the part of the show I'm really finding fascinating.  

Edited March 6, 2017 by stillshimpy

[chocolatine]

2 minutes ago, WhosThatGirl said:

I chose Madealine over Reneta. Only because while I get that Reneta was protecting her daughter from ziggy, passing out the invites the way she did was rude. 

It wasn't a good way to handle the situation, but I can *kind of* sympathize with Renata, because she believes that Ziggy was the one who tried to choke Amabella. I mean, if I were a mother, and my kid told me that another kid tried to hurt her, I would believe her unless there was clear evidence to the contrary.

Madeline, on the other hand, is actively trying to ruin a six-year-old's birthday party. That's completely out of line IMO. If she doesn't want Chloe to go, she could just arrange a play date or outing for Chloe and Ziggy on the day of the party and leave it at that. If she really wants to support Jane and help Ziggy fit in at the school, she needs to de-escalate and let it blow over.

[Mabinogia]

12 hours ago, chocolatine said:

If she doesn't want Chloe to go, she could just arrange a play date or outing for Chloe and Ziggy on the day of the party and leave it at that.

It kind of bothers me that she isn't giving Chloe an option here. Maybe Chloe would like to go to the party, because it's going to be a great party and she is friends with Amabella, but also would like to hang out with Ziggy after. IDK, as shitty as it was for Renata to pass out those invites at school, Madeline sabotaging a childs birthday party is more shitty because, with Renata, I think not inviting Ziggy really was about thinking he physically harmed her daughter. It's how she did it that sucks. But she is putting her daughter first. Madeline is putting someone else's kid over her own daughter, who might have actually wanted to go to Amabella's party and maybe doesn't want to be a gang leader out to hurt Amabella.  Neither woman is right, but I do get the feeling Renata is, at least at the center of her actions, thinking of her daughters safety.

It's all really fucked up and kind of makes me glad I'm not a rich mother. I could NOT live like that.

[sasha206]

On 2/27/2017 at 10:11 PM, isiscloud said:

 

I feel Perry's annoyance that he wasn't told about the previous day's orientation wasn't fully out of line, especially if he was around for it, since he stayed home for the first day. Did not give him the right to hit Celeste, though. They need some time apart and lots of therapy. 

I thought so too about Perry's annoyance being justified (not violently justified, but justified nevertheless).  Is there more to the story with her not telling him?  Is she embarrassed by him?  Insecure about this sexy looking wealthy but younger man being around her friends?  It seems like there is something more there but not sure what.

[stillshimpy]

Just now, sasha206 said:

On 2/27/2017 at 7:11 PM, isiscloud said:

 

I feel Perry's annoyance that he wasn't told about the previous day's orientation wasn't fully out of line, especially if he was around for it, since he stayed home for the first day. Did not give him the right to hit Celeste, though. They need some time apart and lots of therapy. 

 

I thought so too about Perry's annoyance being justified (not violently justified, but justified nevertheless).  Is there more to the story with her not telling him?  Is she embarrassed by him?  Insecure about this sexy looking wealthy but younger man being around her friends?  It seems like there is something more there but not sure what.

 

I thought that was a plot choice, to make it kind of a reasonable thing to object to if one was being in any way reasonable.   That it starts with the seed of something normal.  The normal kind of stuff that husbands and wives would actually bicker about.  Why didn't she tell him?  She knew he was rearranging travel plans, did she really think he was doing that with the expectation that he'd be in the drop-off line?  

In the average, or healthy, marriage, that's a completely reasonable thing to have be a bone of contention:  Jeez, you knew I was canceling flights and rearranging my work schedule, the work that makes all this fabulousness possible, could you maybe have mentioned that there was no reason to think it would be worth it?  

In a healthy relationship: Oh crap, you're kind of right.  I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking about it from your perspective.  <-- pretty much the immediate result. 

In most relationships?  An hour worth of, "I'm just saying, you could have mentioned..." "I thought you would have figured it out by the detailed explanation of what we did do that day...that I may have forgotten to give you, shit.  Shit.  Okay, well, I will kind of cover my ass for a bit here before allowing that, yeah, you have a point but no need to make a thing out of it...we'll both try harder..."  to get to a resolution and all manner of shit gets brought up as an incidental.  

It was really kind of neat writing decision, to make it something that almost anyone could recognize in their own relationship dynamics, even with a coworker, friend, etc.   We all fall victim to assuming the other one gets something without our saying anything.  Just a breakdown of communication.  That's what made it scarier, it wasn't psycho "you didn't face the labels on the canned goods! MURDER IS IN THE AIR!" [/Sleeping with the Enemy] ...it was the stuff of normal relationships, complete with communications breakdowns. 

It scared me so much more than the usual psycho abusive guy things because I've essentially had that fight, not down to the details but in spirit,  with vastly different results.    It made Celeste's reality feel like one I was momentarily inhabiting for a moment.  So I got scared, right along with her.  

[Mabinogia]

10 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

I thought that was a plot choice, to make it kind of a reasonable thing to object to if one was being in any way reasonable.   That it starts with the seed of something normal.  The normal kind of stuff that husbands and wives would actually bicker about.  Why didn't she tell him?  She knew he was rearranging travel plans, did she really think he was doing that with the expectation that he'd be in the drop-off line?

It also fuels his  "you must like it when I get angry, since you're always setting me up" mentality. Obviously she enjoys the fighting if she's doing things to make me angry. That's probably how he views it. While she probably does have some level of shame in being seen with him. Afraid people will talk. What is that hot young rich guy doing with her? They are both pretty damaged and they are both doing things that perpetuate the abuse, though he is the one at fault for it, not her. I'm not saying at all that she asks for it. Just that because of the choices she makes, he feels justified, wrongly, in doing what he is doing. It's really fucked up, but the show is doing an amazing job in showing the complexity of abuse.

[stillshimpy]

Just now, Mabinogia said:

That's probably how he views it. While she probably does have some level of shame in being seen with him. Afraid people will talk. What is that hot young rich guy doing with her?

 

I can't tell if Celeste is supposed to be older than Perry in the story but it would be interesting if she was.  I'm aware that Kidman is older than Skarsgard but within the story, I don't know if the characters have an age disparity.  It would be an interesting note if she is meant to be older because relationships with substantial age gaps always tend to start out with some kind of power imbalance as it is.  

Has the show said one way or another?  I've been finding this all an interesting exploration of domestic violence specifically because it isn't a simply Beauty and the Beast sort of presentation.  Celeste is aware that she's engaging in really unhealthy behaviors too.  It's a really balanced attempt at showing more to a story we've all seen before.  

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think it was a Greek chorus person who mentioned Celeste is significantly older than Perry, probably in the first ep?  

It was.  And I'm curious what the disparity actually is supposed to be.  Her character is described as 'so much older' yet the actors are only nine years apart.  Is she supposed to be more than nine years older than he is or, as I suspect, is it because she's the older one in the couple? I don't think "so much older" would be how people would describe the situation if a husband were nine years older than his wife.  There's a much bigger difference between Nathan and Bonnie yet I can't recall anyone making a big deal about it. Or at least I forgot about it if they have. 

[stillshimpy]

19 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I think it was a Greek chorus person who mentioned Celeste is significantly older than Perry, probably in the first ep?  

 

 

 

Thank you, Winston9-DT3 and  Irlandesa, I missed that detail.  Frankly, I wasn't expecting to like this series as much as I do and so I wasn't paying enough attention and that got past me.  Thank you for the brain assist.   That adds a really intriguing aspect to their relationship because there's usually an inherent power imbalance when it comes to age disparities.  

Edited March 8, 2017 by stillshimpy

[Atlanta]

IIRC, the book says she's

Spoiler

5 years older. Maybe they're using the same here. 

Edited March 9, 2017 by saoirse
Spoiler tag added for book talk

[Inquisitionist]

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 6:31 PM, truecrystal said:

 It's not so much angsty, sexy, hate-fuck-y, but more like they just met in a workshop and are in rehearsal.

That's a good way of putting it.  In the early episodes, they did not seem like a couple who had been together as long as they're later revealed to have been.

On ‎2‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 7:58 PM, chocolatine said:

I have an uncommon name by virtue of being an immigrant - if only my parents had known that I'd end up living in the US! I'm so used to people mispronouncing/misspelling my name that it surprises me when someone gets it right.

I'm eternally grateful that my immigrant parents (perhaps by chance) gave me a name that has an Anglo/English version.  The only Renata I've ever known was an immigrant child whose parents gave all 5 kids non-translatable names -- and in the 1960s, this was not necessarily a good thing.

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 8:02 AM, Atlanta said:

The class stuffed animal is a regular thing. When it was our turn, I was terrified something would happen to that teddy bear. lol We had to keep a journal of its adventures over the weekend and took a picture of it doing something neat. At least we never had to deal with class pets where a student gets to take it home over the weekend. 

Please tell me there is a kid somewhere with the guts to write: "The bear spent the weekend in our closet because it is a pile of inert material and not an actual animate being.  Also, it likely has cooties from the other kids who dragged it all over creation."

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 2:01 PM, Razzberry said:

 

 

Oh, for the love of Pete, cut those kids' bangs already!  There are pretentious names and then there's pretentious hair.