S01.E02: Serious Mothering

[mochamajesty]

9 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I believe it is up to Abigail.  She could walk into Planned Parenthood alone at age 16 and get birth control pills.  I think I did.  If Bonnie discussed it with Nathan and they all three decided to let Abigail tell Madeline on her own time, I can see that being feasible.  We've been shown Madeline being a good mother, but maybe we haven't seen the whole picture yet.  

I don't agree with the step mother and father making the decision and excluding the actual mother.

[Eyes High]

8 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I think generations become more open-minded and tolerant with time.

I think the research disagrees with you on that point, at least when it comes to names. Professor Albert Mehrabian conducted a study over several years assessing people's impressions of first names. The top scorers--James, Elizabeth, Alexander, Katherine, etc.--did not change, and the reason they were top scorers often had deep historical roots. 

Quote

 Yes, it has been proven if you have an "ethnic-sounding" name in Ontario, Canada for instance and you try to apply for a job, you get less chances for an interview because racism exists, but I am not pro-people erasing their culture under any circumstance.

There was also a study that shows that immigrants who anglicize their names when they come to North America significantly outearn to those who do not. Celebrities often drop their more identifiably "ethnic" surnames or change their names altogether to find fame. It is what it is.

Quote

To bring this back to weird names.  Not everyone is pro-conformity.  Everyone in society having similar names because we're so scared of difference--that idea makes me pretty sad.  Barack Obama did pretty well with his.

Obviously, one can overcome an unusual name, just as one can overcome other disadvantages in life, but make no mistake: it's still a disadvantage. Just ask Duncan Jones, who very wisely ditched "Zowie" by the age of 13 in favour of "Joe." 

Your fear of "everyone in society having similar names" is unfounded. Right now, the number of baby names in North America is higher than it's ever been, because parents are obsessed with searching out a "special" baby name, so they either make up their own by coming up with new spellings (Jackson becomes Jaxon, putting random consonants in front of -"ayden" like Jayden, Rayden, etc.) or search for the most obscure names they can find. Thus the unfortunate Amabellas of the world, victims of their parents' obsession with "special" names. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Eyes High

[hoodooznoodooz]

Is Renata's husband Amnmnmabella's father? He didn't seem very invested in the conflict.

[MV007]

1 hour ago, stanleyk said:

I thought this too, especially with the hippo-wounding mentioned later, but then decided these might be red herrings. After all, when Celeste asked them if they thought Ziggy hurt Amabelle, they quickly piped up no and that Ziggy is nice. Unless they're honest-to-god sociopaths, I'm not sure a six or seven year old would be able to answer that naturally and seemingly honestly if one of them were in fact guilty. They'd get hinky, feel guilty, try to shift the blame somehow. 

 

I think you are giving these child actors an awful lot of credit if you think they can play nuances such as this.  I think the kid actors would play it off the same no matter what the characters intentions were.

 

5 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think Abigail made the decision and chose which parents to confide in.  

Except Bonnie isn't a parent.  Was Bonnie thrown in a no-win situation? Sure.  She could either piss off Madeline or risk her growing relationship with Abigail.  In my opinion she chose wrong.  What she should've done is tell Abigail that this is a discussion she should be having with Madeline or her father.  

[mochamajesty]

12 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think Abigail made the decision and chose which parents to confide in.  

Which parents?

Sorry, Bonnie isn't a parent to Abigail except in name only.

She definitely does not get to make decisions about Abigail's well-being.

Just because Nathan married Bonnie does not give Abigail  another set of parents to confide in and gives her the option to ignore her mother.

That's some nerve.

Edited February 28, 2017 by mochamajesty

[mochamajesty]

Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

But were we told her father wasn't involved?  I just think they could spin it so Bonnie did the right thing, especially if Nathan was told and they agreed it was best to help Abigail with the issue and let her tell Madeline in her own time.  

Bonnie had no say in this, so the only right thing that she could have done was to stay out of it.  She certainly shouldn't have given her a ride to the clinic without making certain that her mother knew.

While we don't know about Nathan's involvement, we do know that Bonnie took Abigail to the clinic.  That alone was egregious and Bonnie had no right to do it.  It wasn't like she was giving her a ride to the movies.

[LucyHoneychrrch]

I think Bonnie had a perfect right to give Abigail a ride; I do not, however, think she had a right to keep this information from Madeline.

[MV007]

I think Madeline is an active mother.  I think in this episode we learned that Nathan was at best an absent father until recently.  I think a young woman deciding to go on birth control is a big decision.  I think while Abigail has shown that while she is rebellious toward Madeline, she has also shown she is willing to discuss difficult subject matters with her.  I think the morally right thing to do is to steer Abigail towards talking with her mother about this subject.  I think the only circumstances that would allow Bonnie to act in the way she did would be if Abigail and Madeline had an unhealthy relationship.  Which I don't think they do at this point.

With that said I am empathetic towards Bonnie's situation.  She's trying which is commendable.  But at the end of the day Madeline has 100% of the say when it comes to Abigail and if she doesn't like something then Bonnie has to respect that and re-calibrate her relationship with Abigail.

Edited February 28, 2017 by MV007

[Mabinogia]

If it is legal for a girl Abigail's age to get birth control without parental consent then Bonnie had no obligation to tell Madeline or Nate anything. If it is illegal, and she knew Abigail didn't have her parents consent, then yeah, she fucked up big time. It was actually kind of shitty for Abigail to put her in that situation when she should have just asked a friend with a license to do it, taken an uber or just lied to her mother about how she got there. It's almost like she wanted to pit them against each other.

[Giesela]

Whiplash!  1st episode leads us down the path of domestic violence for Celeste and Perry and the 2nd episode takes us....to two people who like domestic violence as foreplay?  The commentary at the end the guy (director? writer?) said this isn't your normal domestic violence.  Got it.  Nicole Kidman can pick her roles and I think picking one where you are going to have to masturbate on screen...I couldn't do it.  (I wonder if she has a boob double).  The commentator guy talked about two very strong individuals.  While I don't see Celeste as a pushover or anything she does seem sort of passive.  Like a sounding board for Madeline's character.   Its a more subtle character to play so far so I'm glad Nicole is playing her, I think she is doing a good job with a difficult role. 

Their kids - did anyone clock the video game they were playing in the car on the way to school?  It seemed like their was some sort of pointed reference to violence there but I didn't go back to check it.   Yea, ripping up the Hippo would seem to indicate some sort of emotional response unless they were just arguing over it and it got pulled off by accident.  a possible red herring. 

Ed and Nathan.  I didn't even understand their conversation much less get all those subtle messages.  It was like they were talking in code.  Lots of what? where did that come from? on my part

Amabelle and the kiss - the shot of her while Ziggy walking up to her..her expression looked quite welcoming not terrified.  Who narc'ed on the kiss?  Amabelle?  Or does she go home and Renata pump her about her day?    I think Renata will be are next or at least one of our next whiplash events.  2 episodes of Renata as a bitch, then somewhere an episode that shows her in a better light.  

I've always said if I had kids I'd move to North Dakota.  Parenting is just insane now.  

I don't think the question is whether Bonnie did the wrong thing, I think that is pretty obvious.  Yes.  The question is who in their right mind would do that?  I might if they didn't really have any actively parenting them and  were desperate or something.  I think everyone is pretty aware that you don't parent other people's kids.  She's not her parent.  Maybe if she and Madeline had a great relationship.   Speaking of which was Bonnie laughing as they left the school after the parent scene with Renata?

Madeline and Celeste's convo re sex.  I think Madeline may just not be into sex as much as some.  That's like a big sin these days but the reality is human traits usually fall out on a spectrum.  Some people are going to need sex so much its sort of destructive to their lives, most people will be strung out along the general middle some where, some people will need it a little less. 

There is some weird thing on this forum where I hit a normal combination of keys (return and something) and my post disappears.  Second time on this post alone.  argh!

Jane, the actor (Shailene W?) isn't doing much for me.  Nor is the character.  She needs to manage Madeline.  Ziggy is 6? And she is still having a lot flashbacks.  Maybe thats why she moved.  

Poor Ziggy.  Doth his mother protest too much?  He is not a monster but it seems like another arrow pointing to his being the product of rape which could be hard for the mother . 

Twice there were "somebody watching" shots, one where a car door slammed and one where two characters were sitting on the stairs.  Is that going to be something?

Not enough Greek Chorus. 

Apropo of nothing, a much beloved high school teacher died recently (like 88 or something) so my facebook high school page has been full of posts and pictures.  There is one where this tall white teacher has his hands wrapped around a black girls neck.  Both with big smiles, they were joking around for the camera  The chokee is the one who posted the picture with a post of love. 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Giesela

[QuinnM]

So Celeste thinks they should try a new therapist?  For one of the boys?  That's what I'm thinking.  I can't believe Perry would be so calm about the suggestion if she was talking about the two of them.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

If it is legal for a girl Abigail's age to get birth control without parental consent then Bonnie had no obligation to tell Madeline or Nate anything. If it is illegal, and she knew Abigail didn't have her parents consent, then yeah, she fucked up big time. It was actually kind of shitty for Abigail to put her in that situation when she should have just asked a friend with a license to do it, taken an uber or just lied to her mother about how she got there. It's almost like she wanted to pit them against each other.

Just because Bonnie's actions were legal doesn't mean they were morally right. When you're a stepparent, enabling something like that without informing the parent is being really crappy to the parent, and undermining the parent-child relationship.

[mochamajesty]

1 hour ago, Giesela said:

 

I don't think the question is whether Bonnie did the wrong thing, I think that is pretty obvious.  Yes.  The question is who in their right mind would do that?  I might if they didn't really have any actively parenting them and  were desperate or something.  I think everyone is pretty aware that you don't parent other people's kids.  She's not her parent.  Maybe if she and Madeline had a great relationship.   Speaking of which was Bonnie laughing as they left the school after the parent scene with Renata?

 

Many people on this forum think that Bonnie was right to do this. It boggles my mind.  How would Bonnie feel if Madeline did that to Bonnie's daughter?

4 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Just because Bonnie's actions were legal doesn't mean they were morally right. When you're a stepparent, enabling something like that without informing the parent is being really crappy to the parent, and undermining the parent-child relationship.

Thank you!

[dmc]

1 minute ago, mochamajesty said:

Many people on this forum think that Bonnie was right to do this. It boggles my mind.  How would Bonnie feel if Madeline did that to Bonnie's daughter?

Thank you!

Nobody in their right mind takes Someone Else's kid to get birth control...

I think Madeleine was pretty calm considering.  Bonnie wants to be her step daughter's friend, you need to think like a parent. 

[lovinbob]

I don't think Bonnie was right; my negative reaction to Madeline's behavior is that she made a public stink and held up the drop-off line. I can just picture myself fuming in the car behind hers. (Half-joking here.)

The other reason I have some Bonnie sympathy is that Madeline has been an active bitch to her in other scenarios that didn't warrant it. I'm not saying I don't get where Madeline is coming from, but I just don't find her entirely sympathetic.

I definitely have some frustration with Bonnie--she seems to be trying way too hard and then screwed the pooch re: Planned Parenthood. If I were her I'd steer clear of Madeline. But it's hard to do with kids in the same class.

[mochamajesty]

6 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But we have no idea if her other parent, Nathan, was involved.  Does Nathan have an obligation to inform Madeline of every secret Abigail shares with him?  Does Madeline have the same obligation to him?  Does Abigail not have any right to privacy?  The state says she does, regarding this topic.  

I agree that given what we've been shown, it seemed out of line.  But these shows generally show us a tiny bit of a complex picture every week, and two eps in we really don't know much about this situation or these people or relationships.  All it would take is one or two scenes to completely turn the tables to Bonnie having done the right thing.  I haven't read the book or spoilers but I'm just being open minded and wondering if that's where they'll go with it.  

 

I don't see anyone on the forum, much less 'many people', saying Bonnie did the right thing.  I just see me saying it could be the story they wind up telling.  It's too soon to tell.  

 

I do not know why you are creating some backstory that may or may not be there.  They only have five more episodes to tell the story. 

For Bonnie's actions to be right, Madeline would have to be unfit or dead.  And since neither of those are true, Bonnie was wrong.

[stanleyk]

10 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I believe it is up to Abigail.  She could walk into Planned Parenthood alone at age 16 and get birth control pills.  I think I did.  If Bonnie discussed it with Nathan and they all three decided to let Abigail tell Madeline on her own time, I can see that being feasible.  We've been shown Madeline being a good mother, but maybe we haven't seen the whole picture yet.  

I agree that the decision was up to Abigail, and she absolutely could and should have gotten birth control as soon as she felt she needed it. She had no obligation to tell Madeline or anyone else, at any point. But the difference is that she involved her stepmother, and her stepmother is not in the same position as she is. Fundamentally, she treated her stepmother like a friend, and Bonnie went along with it, allying herself with Abigail against her parents (or at least Madeline). I get Bonnie was probably just trying to help Abigail, but she had to have known it would blow up like that. If parents are involved in the discussion, then barring someone being totally unreasonable, all parents should be informed. And we saw that Madeline was not unreasonable about it towards Abigail. So in my mind she was right to both feel betrayed and to feel it was out of line for Bonnie to get involved in the situation. Perhaps we'll see something down the line that will make Bonnie's actions seem more reasonable, but based on this episode, I'm fully on Madeline's side.

[mochamajesty]

6 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm guessing since you're so certain that the story is not going to go that direction that you've read the book.  

I'm pretty sure someone in the story, if not most of them, will be more than what they seem right now.  So why not speculate on it?  Making the 'beloved in ep 2' character be a bad guy, and vice versa, is classic serial drama.  

1

No, I haven't read the book.

I will repeat my statement.  In order for Bonnie to be right, Madeline has to be out of the picture (unfit, dead, etc.).  We can be pretty sure that Madeline is in the picture.  So....Bonnie was wrong.  Bonnie's facial expression shows that she knew that she wrong as well. 

[mojoween]

So last week Madeline asks Jane "like Ziggy Stardust?" about Ziggy and Jane says yes. But then this week principal/counselor guy calls him Ziegfield which would not be Ziggy Stardust.

So either principal/counselor guy gave Ziggy a formal name he doesn't actually have, or Jane was disingenuous about Ziggy's name.  Either way, it seems sloppy.

[FemmyV]

12 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Well, no one else mentioned child abuse specifically in regards to Amabella,  so I hope that wasn't a spoiler.

It may not be a repeat thing, but choking a jid, yeah, that's abusive.

[Mabinogia]

6 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Does Abigail not have any right to privacy?  The state says she does, regarding this topic.  

Apparently Abigail is just a piece of property with no rights. Seriously, all she did was get birth control, which is actually a really responsible thing to do. I don't blame her for not wanting her helicopter mom to know. It was just easier to do it on her own. Her only mistake was not picking some random friend to drive her. Why would she pick Bonnie? And more importantly, knowing how her mother feels about Bonnie, why oh why would she admit that Bonnie drove her? WTF girl? I thought you liked Bonnie. Why would you set your pitbull of a mother on her?

That being said, I also completely get why Madeline is beyond pissed! If they were friends, that would have been a really shitty move. Considering Madeline pretty much hates Bonnie, I don't blame Bonnie for not giving her a ring and chatting about her daughters decisions. She, being more of a free spirit, probably didn't think it was a big deal.

[mochamajesty]

43 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I'm guessing since you're so certain that the story is not going to go that direction that you've read the book.  

I'm pretty sure someone in the story, if not most of them, will be more than what they seem right now.  So why not speculate on it?  Making the 'beloved in ep 2' character be a bad guy, and vice versa, is classic serial drama.  

 

This is why speculation has its own thread and we only discuss things that happen in the episode in episode threads.This cuts down on confusion and ridiculous theories spoiling it for everyone.

In my mind, nothing could justify Bonnie's actions as long as Madeline is in the picture. So, it does not matter what retcon the writers come up with (and it would be a retcon, based on Madeline's actions in this episode).

[Cardie]

I'd like to speculate (unspoiled) on the mystery but don't see a speculation thread.  Am I missing somethimg?

18 minutes ago, mochamajesty said:

This is why speculation has its own thread and we only discuss things that happen in the episode in episode threads.

[Atlanta]

I know most kids aren't comfortable talking to their parents about birth control and unless you or a friend can drive you to a health clinic or wherever, a step parent should defer to the active parent. I know book reference is sort of discouraged here, but Nathan was absent through most of Abigail's life (in the book he left when she was an infant). Bonnie should have consulted Maddie before doing anything. Heck, if even a proactive sort of thing. Like, "If my daughter ever comes to you about ...." they should have a game plan because we all know kids may be more comfy with one person over another.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Atlanta

[FemmyV]

12 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think she had the moral right to do it if the circumstances were right, which would probably include Nathan asking her to.  She certainly had a legal right to do it.  She wasn't taking her anywhere she couldn't go on her own, or to buy a gun or heroin or get a tattoo.  BC is generally considered a healthy choice for a sexually active teen.  I'm pretty sure we'll have to agree to disagree on it, though.  

Bonnie shouldn't have done it it, for no other reason, than she gave Madeline a perfectly valid reason to come get all up in her face. It is not cool for a stepmother to usurp parenting duties in a relationship where the actual mother isn't doing a bad job. Perhaps Abby felt more comfortable having Bonnie take her, but facing discomfort is one of those things you do to grow up. Trying to save herself that discomfort only resulted in being grilled, and being the reason for even more dischord between her mother and step.

[Gem 10]

I may be nuts but .. The thought of that stuffed Hippo being passed around the whole class to take home no less seems gross to me.  The idea serves a purpose I guess, but I still think it's gross.  Also,  seeing Nicole Kidman taking her clothes off AGAIN in this series turns me off to her.   I am loving this series tho.   Chloe is adorable.  Love the way she calls her Mom " Woman"  ha ha.

[Slovenly Muse]

Best thing about the show so far: The soundtrack! There are some really amazing musical choices being made here, and the whole thing sounds incredible.

Worst thing about the show so far: The fact that this amazing soundtrack is being delivered to us by Chloe, who is apparently being packaged as the tiny DJ of everyone's lives. Why? To call extra attention to the musical choices? All it's doing is calling attention to her wildly improbable taste in music! There is not a 6-year-old on the planet who, when put in charge of car music, would choose PJ Harvey over The Wiggles!

As to the birth control issue, nobody's really right or wrong here. Well, Abigail was right to get birth control, if she's ready to take that step, and she was right to go to someone she trusted to help her. Beyond that, this kind of issue isn't really about taking sides (who's in the right), as much as it's about understanding why everyone is reacting the way they are. Madeleine is upset and scared, as any parent would be, to find that their kid is moving into sexual territory, and they (the parent) don't know anything about it and are therefore losing control of their kid's life, and losing their ability to protect their kid, just when things are getting "real." Plus, she is jealous, as any parent in her situation would probably be, of the relationship/friendship her kid has formed with her new step-mom. She's afraid of Bonnie replacing her as Abigail's mom the same way Bonnie replaced her as Nathan's wife. It's not rational, but it's understandable. Bonnie overstepped, and Madeleine hit the roof.

Bonnie, as a step-parent trying to build a motherly relationship with her partner's aloof teenager, is understandably touched and excited that her step-kid has come to her, is trusting her, with something as big and personal as sexual health. Whether or not it's the responsible thing to do, no step-parent is going to turn down that kind of bonding opportunity! Should she have at least informed Madeleine of what Abigail had asked? Maybe... I actually think that was Nathan's job, as the primary co-parent of Abigail with Madeleine. But beyond that, from Bonnie's perspective, what WAS the responsible thing to do? If she had said, "you should talk to your 'real' mother about this, or maybe your father" then maybe Abigail would have not felt comfortable doing that and would have given up on the idea. Then the trust between Abigail and Bonnie would have eroded, Abigail could be caught without birth control when she needed it, and Abigail could be left feeling that she didn't have anyone in her family she could talk to about sex stuff, or that she has to keep any sexual experiences a secret from everyone lest one parent tell all the others, which is the LAST thing anyone wants for a teenager on the verge of becoming sexually active! Was it selfish of Bonnie to take on this role with Abigail without involving Madeleine? Absolutely. Was it the wrong thing to do? There's no way to know that. It's certainly a defensible, understandable choice.

I like the choice to make this issue a source of conflict between Madeleine and Bonnie. Because it IS one of those situations where there is no clear right answer, and it's such an overcharged emotional subject, it really shows off who both characters are as people and as parents.

[Gem 10]

12 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Best thing about the show so far: The soundtrack! There are some really amazing musical choices being made here, and the whole thing sounds incredible.

Worst thing about the show so far: The fact that this amazing soundtrack is being delivered to us by Chloe, who is apparently being packaged as the tiny DJ of everyone's lives. Why? To call extra attention to the musical choices? All it's doing is calling attention to her wildly improbable taste in music! There is not a 6-year-old on the planet who, when put in charge of car music, would choose PJ Harvey over The Wiggles!

As to the birth control issue, nobody's really right or wrong here. Well, Abigail was right to get birth control, if she's ready to take that step, and she was right to go to someone she trusted to help her. Beyond that, this kind of issue isn't really about taking sides (who's in the right), as much as it's about understanding why everyone is reacting the way they are. Madeleine is upset and scared, as any parent would be, to find that their kid is moving into sexual territory, and they (the parent) don't know anything about it and are therefore losing control of their kid's life, and losing their ability to protect their kid, just when things are getting "real." Plus, she is jealous, as any parent in her situation would probably be, of the relationship/friendship her kid has formed with her new step-mom. She's afraid of Bonnie replacing her as Abigail's mom the same way Bonnie replaced her as Nathan's wife. It's not rational, but it's understandable. Bonnie overstepped, and Madeleine hit the roof.

Bonnie, as a step-parent trying to build a motherly relationship with her partner's aloof teenager, is understandably touched and excited that her step-kid has come to her, is trusting her, with something as big and personal as sexual health. Whether or not it's the responsible thing to do, no step-parent is going to turn down that kind of bonding opportunity! Should she have at least informed Madeleine of what Abigail had asked? Maybe... I actually think that was Nathan's job, as the primary co-parent of Abigail with Madeleine. But beyond that, from Bonnie's perspective, what WAS the responsible thing to do? If she had said, "you should talk to your 'real' mother about this, or maybe your father" then maybe Abigail would have not felt comfortable doing that and would have given up on the idea. Then the trust between Abigail and Bonnie would have eroded, Abigail could be caught without birth control when she needed it, and Abigail could be left feeling that she didn't have anyone in her family she could talk to about sex stuff, or that she has to keep any sexual experiences a secret from everyone lest one parent tell all the others, which is the LAST thing anyone wants for a teenager on the verge of becoming sexually active! Was it selfish of Bonnie to take on this role with Abigail without involving Madeleine? Absolutely. Was it the wrong thing to do? There's no way to know that. It's certainly a defensible, understandable choice.

I like the choice to make this issue a source of conflict between Madeleine and Bonnie. Because it IS one of those situations where there is no clear right answer, and it's such an overcharged emotional subject, it really shows off who both characters are as people and as parents.

[Gem 10]

About the birth control issue.   As a mother of two girls, I'm wondering why some daughters can and cannot talk to their mothers about these womanly things.  My two married girls never discussed these things with me and we all are very close.  Then again, I never talked to my mother of these things either.  I talked to a cousin about everything personal.  Go figure.  Guess there's no right or wrong.

[ProudMary]

On 2/27/2017 at 4:23 PM, Lemons said:

They could always have dropped Nicole Kidman and replaced her with a real actress, save some money, better program.

First let me say that I agree with you and would personally have no problem replacing Nicole Kidman.  I've never been particularly impressed with her acting ability and am not here.   Unfortunately though, both Kidman and Reese Witherspoon are executive producers on Big Little Lies and optioned the rights to the project for both of them to produce and star in it.  This is their baby; can't fire the boss!  

13 hours ago, Giesela said:

Their kids - did anyone clock the video game they were playing in the car on the way to school?  It seemed like their was some sort of pointed reference to violence there but I didn't go back to check it.   Yea, ripping up the Hippo would seem to indicate some sort of emotional response unless they were just arguing over it and it got pulled off by accident.  a possible red herring. 

I could be wrong on this and I didn't go back and re-watch, but it looked to me like the boys were watching The Fairly OddParents not playing a video game.

30 minutes ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Best thing about the show so far: The soundtrack! There are some really amazing musical choices being made here, and the whole thing sounds incredible.

Worst thing about the show so far: The fact that this amazing soundtrack is being delivered to us by Chloe, who is apparently being packaged as the tiny DJ of everyone's lives. Why? To call extra attention to the musical choices? All it's doing is calling attention to her wildly improbable taste in music! There is not a 6-year-old on the planet who, when put in charge of car music, would choose PJ Harvey over The Wiggles!

I totally agree with you that the soundtrack is terrific.  But I had the same thought about Chloe.  For me it was the Leon Bridges song, "River".  I love his music but what 6 year old would be listening to that independent of parental choice?  It didn't seem that Madeline had been familiar with the song because she listened for a couple of beats and then said to Chloe that it was a beautiful song.  Chloe as the constant dispenser of everyone's music is kind of strange to me.

Laura Dern's portrayal of Renata is terrific.  The fact that we all hate her just seals it for me!

In the scene between Nathan and Ed, it didn't seem to me that Nathan had prior knowledge of the fact that Bonnie drove Abigail to Planned Parenthood. In fact he didn't seem to really care at all one way or the other which really ticked me off.  I was yelling at the TV, "She's your daughter too, asshole!"  Just my opinion.  

[WhosThatGirl]

I don't think there's anything going on inappropriately with Abigail and Ed. One poster may have said it best when she interpreted that perhaps Abigail is a little jealous about Ed and Chloe and their relationship with her mother. I think it's easier for her to bond with Bonnie because she's a young woman but Ed it might be harder for her to find any sort of connection to, aside from him being "the guy who married my mom". I wouldn't be surprised if at some point during this show she asks to live with her dad and Bonnie.

Im also on the side of thinking one of the twins did it. They come from violent household and then there's the "what happened to Harry's(the stuffed hippo) leg?" 

I kind of love Madeline. I know she's kind of crazy-aren't all of them though?- but I loved her takedown of Bonnie in the parking lot and her takedown of Ronetta in the bar. I also loved the peanut gallery lady who was all, "I was at the bar that night and I saw Madeline glance at a steak knife".. what? I also love how she just flat out send out invites to frozen on ice the very next day. She's kind of awesome. I wish we had gotten a scene of that, I hope she hired people dressed up like the movie characters to hand them out. Like my super sweet 16 for first graders.

Edited March 1, 2017 by WhosThatGirl

[riverheightsnancy]

2 hours ago, Gem 10 said:

I may be nuts but .. The thought of that stuffed Hippo being passed around the whole class to take home no less seems gross to me.  The idea serves a purpose I guess, but I still think it's gross.  Also,  seeing Nicole Kidman taking her clothes off AGAIN in this series turns me off to her.   I am loving this series tho.   Chloe is adorable.  Love the way she calls her Mom " Woman"  ha ha.

Aww, my daughter's class did that when she was in Kindergarten or First grade. But we had Coco the Brown Bear. It was a HIGHLIGHT of these kids' year. It was so special. We had to take pictures of all the things Coco did. Wicked cute. Imagine my daughter's surprise when I managed (trust-this was no small feat) to find an identical bear.  Coco had an identical twin that showed up to stay at our house with original Coco! Our Coco had glasses though (we called him Moco). My daughter was so thrilled about that. Good times, good times. 

I have been thinking about the choking. Does anyone thing that the bruise looks more like an object (like a belt) as opposed to a young boy's small hands? Hand prints tend to look different. Can a young boy get his hands all the way around a neck? I have to wonder if the twins weren't "playing" like mom and dad and used a belt on Amabelle? 

[mochamajesty]

9 hours ago, Cardie said:

I'd like to speculate (unspoiled) on the mystery but don't see a speculation thread.  Am I missing somethimg?

Other shows have them. Perhaps since you and that other poster are so keen on speculation you could either start one or ask a mod to start one?

8 hours ago, Atlanta said:

I know most kids aren't comfortable talking to their parents about birth control and unless you or a friend can drive you to a health clinic or wherever, a step parent should defer to the active parent. I know book reference is sort of discouraged here, but Nathan was absent through most of Abigail's life (in the book he left when she was an infant). Bonnie should have consulted Maddie before doing anything. Heck, if even a proactive sort of thing. Like, "If my daughter ever comes to you about ...." they should have a game plan because we all know kids may be more comfy with one person over another.

 

 

 

Agreed. Bonnie should defer to the active parent. 

6 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

As to the birth control issue, nobody's really right or wrong here. Well, Abigail was right to get birth control, if she's ready to take that step, and she was right to go to someone she trusted to help her. Beyond that, this kind of issue isn't really about taking sides (who's in the right), as much as it's about understanding why everyone is reacting the way they are. Madeleine is upset and scared, as any parent would be, to find that their kid is moving into sexual territory, and they (the parent) don't know anything about it and are therefore losing control of their kid's life, and losing their ability to protect their kid, just when things are getting "real." Plus, she is jealous, as any parent in her situation would probably be, of the relationship/friendship her kid has formed with her new step-mom. She's afraid of Bonnie replacing her as Abigail's mom the same way Bonnie replaced her as Nathan's wife. It's not rational, but it's understandable. Bonnie overstepped, and Madeleine hit the roof.

Bonnie, as a step-parent trying to build a motherly relationship with her partner's aloof teenager, is understandably touched and excited that her step-kid has come to her, is trusting her, with something as big and personal as sexual health. Whether or not it's the responsible thing to do, no step-parent is going to turn down that kind of bonding opportunity! Should she have at least informed Madeleine of what Abigail had asked? Maybe... I actually think that was Nathan's job, as the primary co-parent of Abigail with Madeleine. But beyond that, from Bonnie's perspective, what WAS the responsible thing to do? If she had said, "you should talk to your 'real' mother about this, or maybe your father" then maybe Abigail would have not felt comfortable doing that and would have given up on the idea. Then the trust between Abigail and Bonnie would have eroded, Abigail could be caught without birth control when she needed it, and Abigail could be left feeling that she didn't have anyone in her family she could talk to about sex stuff, or that she has to keep any sexual experiences a secret from everyone lest one parent tell all the others, which is the LAST thing anyone wants for a teenager on the verge of becoming sexually active! Was it selfish of Bonnie to take on this role with Abigail without involving Madeleine? Absolutely. Was it the wrong thing to do? There's no way to know that. It's certainly a defensible, understandable choice.

I like the choice to make this issue a source of conflict between Madeleine and Bonnie. Because it IS one of those situations where there is no clear right answer, and it's such an overcharged emotional subject, it really shows off who both characters are as people and as parents.

 

 

 

There is a clear right answer, as far as I am concerned. Unless Maddie is unfit Bonnie should not have done it.  I am basing this off of the events in the episode and not making up some what-if scenario.  If later episodes show us something else, I will re-visit.    Nathan didn't seem to give a damn one way or the other.  And Bonnie is a mother herself, so WTF?  I could see if Bonnie didn't know anything about kids or whatever..but nope. Wrong.

3 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I have been thinking about the choking. Does anyone thing that the bruise looks more like an object (like a belt) as opposed to a young boy's small hands? Hand prints tend to look different. Can a young boy get his hands all the way around a neck? I have to wonder if the twins weren't "playing" like mom and dad and used a belt on Amabelle? 

 

 

 

Yes, the mark looked like she was strangled by an object. Which meant that the person had to be behind her. It may be possible that she didn't see who did it.  But I am going with evil twins for now.

Edited March 1, 2017 by mochamajesty

[mochamajesty]

7 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think the writers and actors are doing a great job at setting up the viewers for the inevitable twists if most viewers this early on can't even fathom that Madeline might be at least partly a bad mother, or Bonnie at least partly a good stepmother, under any conceivable scenario or with any new info yet to be presented.  I love Madeline so far too and hope she's not too nuts in the end but I'm not placing any bets on her saintliness. 

 

It's not the I 'can't fathom' anything.  An episode ago I thought that Celeste/Perry had the typical domestic violence relationship. It's that the writers want us to look at this birth control issue a certain way - at least for now. And making up woulda, coulda, shoulda about what happened prior to this episode won't change that. And new info hasn't been presented, so I do not understand what you are going on about. 

[Atlanta]

The class stuffed animal is a regular thing. When it was our turn, I was terrified something would happen to that teddy bear. lol We had to keep a journal of its adventures over the weekend and took a picture of it doing something neat. At least we never had to deal with class pets where a student gets to take it home over the weekend. 

[MV007]

9 hours ago, Slovenly Muse said:

Best thing about the show so far: The soundtrack! There are some really amazing musical choices being made here, and the whole thing sounds incredible.

Worst thing about the show so far: The fact that this amazing soundtrack is being delivered to us by Chloe, who is apparently being packaged as the tiny DJ of everyone's lives. Why? To call extra attention to the musical choices? All it's doing is calling attention to her wildly improbable taste in music! There is not a 6-year-old on the planet who, when put in charge of car music, would choose PJ Harvey over The Wiggles!

As to the birth control issue, nobody's really right or wrong here. Well, Abigail was right to get birth control, if she's ready to take that step, and she was right to go to someone she trusted to help her. Beyond that, this kind of issue isn't really about taking sides (who's in the right), as much as it's about understanding why everyone is reacting the way they are. Madeleine is upset and scared, as any parent would be, to find that their kid is moving into sexual territory, and they (the parent) don't know anything about it and are therefore losing control of their kid's life, and losing their ability to protect their kid, just when things are getting "real." Plus, she is jealous, as any parent in her situation would probably be, of the relationship/friendship her kid has formed with her new step-mom. She's afraid of Bonnie replacing her as Abigail's mom the same way Bonnie replaced her as Nathan's wife. It's not rational, but it's understandable. Bonnie overstepped, and Madeleine hit the roof.

Bonnie, as a step-parent trying to build a motherly relationship with her partner's aloof teenager, is understandably touched and excited that her step-kid has come to her, is trusting her, with something as big and personal as sexual health. Whether or not it's the responsible thing to do, no step-parent is going to turn down that kind of bonding opportunity! Should she have at least informed Madeleine of what Abigail had asked? Maybe... I actually think that was Nathan's job, as the primary co-parent of Abigail with Madeleine. But beyond that, from Bonnie's perspective, what WAS the responsible thing to do? If she had said, "you should talk to your 'real' mother about this, or maybe your father" then maybe Abigail would have not felt comfortable doing that and would have given up on the idea. Then the trust between Abigail and Bonnie would have eroded, Abigail could be caught without birth control when she needed it, and Abigail could be left feeling that she didn't have anyone in her family she could talk to about sex stuff, or that she has to keep any sexual experiences a secret from everyone lest one parent tell all the others, which is the LAST thing anyone wants for a teenager on the verge of becoming sexually active! Was it selfish of Bonnie to take on this role with Abigail without involving Madeleine? Absolutely. Was it the wrong thing to do? There's no way to know that. It's certainly a defensible, understandable choice.

I like the choice to make this issue a source of conflict between Madeleine and Bonnie. Because it IS one of those situations where there is no clear right answer, and it's such an overcharged emotional subject, it really shows off who both characters are as people and as parents.

2 Things.  First, I too love the music and while my head knows Chloe is too young and precocious for her personality to be real, my heart finds it adorable and I love the character.

Second, I think Bonnie needs to understand that her friendship with Abigail is secondary to Madeline's parental relationship with Abigail.  If something comes up where the two relationships are in conflict then Bonnie needs to defer to Madeline.  Furthermore, I believe that Bonnie needs to be willing to sacrifice her friendship in service to Madeline's parental relationship.  If Bonnie felt that encouraging Abigail to talk to her mother first would hurt her friendship with Abigail, well that is too bad.   

Edited March 1, 2017 by MV007

[MV007]

12 hours ago, Atlanta said:

 I know book reference is sort of discouraged here, but Nathan was absent through most of Abigail's life (in the book he left when she was an infant). 

This is now canon in the show too.  Madeline confided to Ed that Nathan was not around.  

[Giesela]

Looked at the scene with the kids watching the cartoon

 as they drive down the road

Singing lyrics: Timmy is an average kid that no one understands

Picture changes to two small fish in a fishbowl that look worried then changing to

having huge smiles and floating crowns;

lyrics;  Mom and Dad and Vicky giving them commands no one understands

Singling continues in background while adults talk but can't hear 

Cuts back to cartoon voice

Cosmo: Well just go away forever

Timmy:  Why?

Wanda: Because that's what the rule book says

cartoon shown - female character (who has a fairy wand and a crown)  hits a male character over the head with a book that's titled 

"DA Rules"

Then the fairy? looks like she expresses some dismay

I looked up The Fairly Odd Parents and season 1 is described as 

After being tortured and humiliated by his babysitter, a ten year old boy is put under the care of two fairy godparents, who can grant him almost any wish, which leads to dire consequences.

Wiki:  In the 1990s and 2000s fictional town of Dimmsdale, California, a 10-year-old boy named Timmy Turner is neglected by his parents and tortured by his babysitter Vicky. One day, he is granted two fairy godparents, Cosmo and Wanda, who grant his every wish to improve his miserable life. 

Da Rules is the book by which the fairy godparents must abide about how to be fairy godparents

Interestingly each character has an anti character that is the opposite of them (smart/dumb, good/bad.  Very twin like no?

Edited March 1, 2017 by Giesela

[Giesela]

You are probably right.  But it does show, I think, an extra level of detail which is more common in a quality production such as HBO likes to produce.  Providing for more levels of flavor in the Celest/Perry/twins family.  As to clues, more likely not.  

[Eyes High]

38 minutes ago, MV007 said:

This is now canon in the show too.  Madeline confided to Ed that Nathan was not around.  

Yes. From what we've seen, Madeline is well rid of Nathan; he's a grade-A asshole. His response to Ed saying it's good to take others' feelings into consideration--a pretty non-controversial concept, one would think--was to imply Ed's a pussy, which says it all, really. Not to mention his scoffing at the sheer ridiculousness of the idea that Madeline still has a problem with the fact that he walked out on their child.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Eyes High

[QuinnM]

Quote

Ed:  "Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan.  Are you threatening me?"  

I'm wondering if he is threatening Ed but we just don't know what Nathan knows ... yet.

[Eyes High]

Quote

I see why Ed has concerns about Maddie still having feelings for Nathan.  She seems to.

As Madeline says in this very episode, she does have feelings for Nathan...of resentment. And why shouldn't she? He swans around playing Father of the Year with Skye as if he had never abandoned Madeline and Abigail and apparently according to Nathan it's Madeline's issue if she has any remaining resentment over Nathan abandoning them, since "it was 15 years ago" and he "was an asshole back then," like his recognition of same somehow erases his past shittiness. Classic fuckboy behaviour. Your contention that he's "grown" and "become a better man" rings a little hollow, since he shows no guilt over his treatment of Madeline and Abigail, whines about how Madeline can't get over his abandonment of her, and airily handwaves his abandonment of his wife and child with "I was an asshole back then." What an asshole. I predict that someday Nathan will eventually walk out on Bonnie and Skye, too, once the novelty of pretending to be a great dad wears off. No book spoilers, just an observation. Leopard, spots, etc. etc.

Nathan walked out on Madeline and their young daughter, leaving Madeline to care for her alone. Madeline's well within her rights to continue to be furious over that, especially when she's confronted with daily proof that Nathan has it in him to play the good, caring father...just not for her and Abigail, when they needed him most.

And if you think that a person being furious with their ex for ditching them and their child(ren), even 15 years on must be attributable to lingering unrequited love for that ex, I'd say you know very little about divorced parents. Lingering anger doesn't mean unrequited love; it just means lingering anger at being fucked over.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Eyes High

[MV007]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The whole conversation was written to be awkward, and I see Ed's point about why it hurts Maddie, but to me Nathan did seem like he was being complimentary to Ed and trying to smoothe things out, not make things worse.  And I see Nathan's point that it's been 15 years, is it really that painful to see Nathan's grown and become a better man?  I see why Ed has concerns about Maddie still having feelings for Nathan.  She seems to.  

Yes, it really is that painful.  You don't really get over an absent parent moving on with another family.  At best, I think you just accept, forgive and move forward.  But I think that takes a different amount of time for everyone to do, if ever.

[Gwen-Stacys]

I'm gonna have to agree with everyone saying that they could see both sides of the birth control issue. If my teenage stepdaughter confided in me about aspects of her personal life, I wouldn't share it with her mother (or father) unless I thought she was in danger. It isn't often that teens confide in adults as opposed to other teens and I think it is good for them to have that not-parental-but-still-an-authority-type figure in their lives. I don't necessarily agree with Bonnie actually taking her to PP (she should've nudged her in her birth parents' direction). But I can understand her reasoning for doing it. Abigail was going to do it any way, at least someone was there with her that has a relative wealth of BC knowledge that isn't the doctor. Oh! And one way for Bonnie to be completely in the right in this situation could be that she actually never took Abigail to PP...she just took the blame (mostly because Abigail didn't let her get a word in edgewise). And I took Nathan's reaction to Ed bringing the BC issue up to be one of surprise, as in the whole situation was news to him -as in this was the first time he was learning the catalyst for the argument. Which wouldn't make sense for the open sort of relationship we've been lead to believe that Bonnie and Nathan have. Alternately, Bonnie might not have even told him about Madeline going off on her in the parking lot, one of the other mom's could've (especially since he's a landscaper). This show has been very good about leaving some things purposely (I hope) vague.

[mochamajesty]

14 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

As Madeline says in this very episode, she does have feelings for Nathan...of resentment. And why shouldn't she? He swans around playing Father of the Year with Skye as if he had never abandoned Madeline and Abigail

I wonder how Abigail feels about her dad.  I wonder if she has any lingering resentment.

I am wracking my brain trying to remember if the episodes showed us anything regarding this. I may have to re-watch.

[Athena]

The number one rule on these forums is to Be Civil to your fellow posters. You can disagree with each other politely, but personal attacks and rudeness are not allowed. Please watch your tone. Thank you.

[mochamajesty]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I thought Ed was kind of a punk in that scene, too.  I didn't understand this part.  

Nathan:  "I thought it would be indelicate to bring it up with Maddie.  That's why I'm bringing it up with you."  

Ed:  "Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan.  Are you threatening me?"  

I don't see the implied threat?  

I didn't see the implied threat, either.  I was like, "What threat?".  

[Mabinogia]

2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Nathan:  "I thought it would be indelicate to bring it up with Maddie.  That's why I'm bringing it up with you."

Ed:  "Well, that sounded like a threat, Nathan.  Are you threatening me?"

Yeah, that was really weird. Threatening to what? talk to him? I 100% prefer Ed to Nathan but that was such an odd thing to respond with.

[Razzberry]

12 hours ago, riverheightsnancy said:

I have been thinking about the choking. Does anyone thing that the bruise looks more like an object (like a belt) as opposed to a young boy's small hands? Hand prints tend to look different. Can a young boy get his hands all the way around a neck? I have to wonder if the twins weren't "playing" like mom and dad and used a belt on Amabelle? 

Some type of ligature was my first thought as well.    Evil Twins is such a trope but with their parents it wouldn't surprise me if they did it.   Amabella could be too frightened of them to tell.

 

Edited March 1, 2017 by Razzberry

[nara]

Lots of crazy characters,  but for some reason Nathan and Bonnie annoy me the most. Not a particularly insightful comment but had to get it off my chest.