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kariyaki

S04.E04: XXXII

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Wow. Another excellent episode. So much happened. 

I love the Flint/Silver mentor/mentee relationship, but I think Flint surrendering to Eleanor (I cannot believe he trusts her to honor the "deal." Not to mention the "deal"has enough holes in it to sink a ship. WTF Flint! I hope this is some kind of stalking tactic on his part.) will be the beginning of the end of that relationship, whether it be due to his death or Silver coming more into his own and therefore no longer needing his guidance. It is clear, that though cunning and intelligent and somewhat savage ( him killing Dufresne was vicious and his threat to Billy about any harm coming to Madi was frightening) Flint is the  brains, for lack of a better term, behind Silver/LJS. Now that he and Flint are separated it's going to be interesting seeing Silver make the full transition into Long John Silver.

Billy made a good point about Max (though I didn't agree with his advice to kill her) and Flint's endless quest to find some impossible war to win, to engage in, but he really f*cked things up when he let his hatred towards Flint, drive him to go against logic and take the Underhill Estate. Now the pirates not only have enemies in England but enemies in a large army of slaves that have revolted and want no part of the English nor Pirate/Madi's army. It's a mess that the pirates obviously wasn't expecting and won't be able to clean up so easily, if at all.

I think the slave that Madi spoke with at the Underhill Estate gave sound advice. This war cannot be won by the pirates. The best thing to do at this point is to hunker down in a safer place i.e. Maroon Island. Also, I'm starting to fear a bit for Madi. They made it very clear in this episode that she's Silver's Achilles heel. He pretty much said it, point blank. I hope that she survives this war and long after it, and isn't sacrificed on the alter of LJS. 

Eleanor being pregnant seems to guarantee that she'll ride off into the sunset <rollseyes> when this is over. She may be genuine, but I find her "good English woman" schick to be suspect and boring, the same with Rodgers' attempt at being a boss. I have minimal interest in their struggles and "love." That said, does she really think her husband will walk away from Nassau, even with her pregnancy and enough treasure to pay off his debt? I think she's over estimating her control over him. Rodgers is not going to want to take the treasure and scurry into the night with his pregnant wife. This punk thinks he's a badass and will not give up his power so easily.

Anne is a BADASS. I hope she recovers, but I don't know, she took some brutal hits before she finally took down Rodgers' men.

Edited by Enero
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I think this is the beginning of the separation between Silver and Flint, too.  When John asked Flint if he would give up everything to have Thomas back again, he couldn't even answer.  Silver should definitely start making exit strategies for him and Madi.

What was with Hands putting the bug in Flint's ear about Silver casting him aside?  Who side is he really on?

Of course Eleanor is pregnant.  Ugh, I was hoping she would be killed this episode.  She has escape offers thrown at her, but she always finds a reason to refuse.  If you were pregnant, would you really stay on that island? 

The uprising leader, Julius, was really compelling. 

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It is clear, that though cunning and intelligent and somewhat savage ( him killing Dufresne was vicious and his threat to Billy about any harm coming to Madi was frightening) Flint is the  brains, for lack of a better term, behind Silver/LJS.

Silver is clever and very good at manipulation situations in his favour and finding the right reaction, but I think Flint is more of a visionary and strategist, someone who anticipates situations before they've happened and can work around changing situations because he sees that end goal. He's the only one who always sees the big picture (so much that he fails to see/care about the individuals making up that picture). Billy is probably second to him in that regards, but now his hatred of Flint blinds him.

I don't know what Hands is playing at. I still think he's on Silver's side cause let's be honest, nobody is ever really on Flint's side, so why is he trying to drive a wedge between them? Madi is safe IMO, so with all that talk of her being the weakness I'll guess at some point Silver will have to choose between her and Nassau or something and he'll pick her and they'll ride off into the sunset. That would also instantly put him in opposition to Flint, so maybe that's when they become enemies.

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To me, this episode could have been called, "How Important is Nassau?"  Eleanor is starting to wonder about the wisdom of raising a child in Nassau.  I liked Max and Eleanor's conversation because Max told her right, all of this shit was her fault, she never should have hung Vane the way she did because all that did was stir people up.  I liked how Eleanor asked Max where would they have gone had Eleanor agreed to run off with Max; a part of Eleanor probably wishes they had run off together.  I felt sorry for Max because she has lost everything, Eleanor does still have a husband and a baby on the way.

I think Silver knows that Flint would drop everything if he could be with Thomas Hamilton.  I liked the conversation Madi had with the older woman.  The woman said "when you fight again the world, the world fights back" which went back to the very first episode of the show, that the pirates had declared war against the world.  She also told Madi that her mother had the right idea, just find your own place, put walls around it and keep the people you love safe; Silver still wants to fight, but I think Madi realizes it's not going to work, especially with the slaves against them.  

That scene with Anne was fucking brutal.  Those guys acted more like ISIS than "civilized" men, but I digress.  I don't believe that Anne is done for, at least I hope not.

Edited by Neurochick

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I've binge-watched this show over the last couple of weeks to catch up, and I've been wondering when the enslaved Africans would fully understand that neither England or the pirates could ever be trusted.  That both sides were using them as a means to leverage power for their own ends.  By Billy's season 3 admission, they sold them when it suited their ends, so I totally understood why the Maroon Queen was extremely hesitant to trust them.  

I always thought Madi was naive in aligning with Flint and crew (the whole "enemy of my enemy" thing was extremely shaky in this context), though I realize their hand was somewhat forced once Mr. Scott was mortally wounded. I have mixed feelings of how the female characters have evolved, so I don't know how it will end.  I hope she lives, as well as Max.  Not really invested in any other characters.   

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4 hours ago, peridot said:

The uprising leader, Julius, was really compelling. 

Agreed. This show has done a great job casting compelling actors of African descent, specifically in the last couple of seasons. 

2 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

I always thought Madi was naive in aligning with Flint and crew (the whole "enemy of my enemy" thing was extremely shaky in this context), though I realize their hand was somewhat forced once Mr. Scott was mortally wounded. I have mixed feelings of how the female characters have evolved, so I don't know how it will end.  I hope she lives, as well as Max.  Not really invested in any other characters.   

I think even before Mr. Scott got injured, Maroon Island was eventually headed for trouble. Flint and his crew weren't the first pirates to make it to their shores. It was only going to be a matter of time before they were discovered my someone who they couldn't just wipe out and thus silence. I could understand the allure of Nassau for the Maroons, if they could forge an alliance with the pirates that was successful. They could live free on an island where land and resources are abundant, but I agree they should know that at the very least, England, Spain etc., would never allow that to happen.

I do wonder though, what Mr. Scott's long game was? I know that Madi was being groomed to take over ruling the island, but what of getting the much needed supplies from Nassau? He couldn't do what he was doing forever due to getting older and the changes in Nassau that might limit or destroy his ability to get supplies to the island. Did he hope to eventually free Nassau so they could move the Maroon community there? Or did he just want to remain hidden as long as they could and killing anyone who discovered them?

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Silver still wants to fight, but I think Madi realizes it's not going to work, especially with the slaves against them.  

No matter Madi's thought I don't think she has any choice but to continue on. The situation with the slaves on Nassau island aside, she needs the island as a resource for much needed supplies for home. This has to work out for her on some level or her people may find it difficult to survive being cut off from the supplies Nassau provides. 

Edited by Enero

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For me, Nassau is a much different animal than Maroon Island.  I think Mr. Scott could have groomed someone else, even more than one, to eventually take over what he did.  Was it tenuous?  Absolutely.  Nothing lasts forever, but there was probably a greater chance for the Maroons to live longer in peace.  Short of sailing back to another part of the African continent, there would be no permanent safe place.  From the little I know of the Maroon people, they HAD to live in remote, relatively inaccessible areas in order to survive.  

Nassau is just a town on the island.  You have the interior where there were plenty of landowners with slaves, presumably with the cooperation of the British government.  With the pirates shifting allegiances based on how the wind blows, and with only Flint and Silver willing to see the Africans as equals, I have my doubts as to how long that alliance would have lasted.  And that's not counting the continued assault by the British Navy, who has considerably more resources than however many pirates are still alive at this point.  Not to mention the Spanish, from whom the threat seems to have disappeared this season.  

I would imagine the vast majority of remaining survivors on Maroon island are women and children.  Between the fight with the Navy on the island plus the massacre on the beach/water, a lot of the Maroon men are likely dead. Probably more of Julius and his men than anyone else at this point. But they face the same issue that the pirates do - a fight on two fronts with limited manpower and resources.   

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Another great episode, with lots of great character moments and the continuation of the whole theme of "if you fight the world, the world fights back*" that's been going this season. The Pirate Rebellion might have strong ideals, but they don't exist in a vacuum. By screwing with the "natural order" of the British Empire, they've gotten closer to opening up Pandora's box. Now they have the British, their own internal fighting, the new slave army, PLUS any other foreign power who wouldn't be too excited about pirates and ex slaves running their own island town. Not saying what they're doing is wrong, and certainly not saying that people should just let the status quo stay up if its filled with horrible subjugation and abuse, but this isn't a movie where the brave rebels defeat the evil empire and everything is awesome and easy. Its complicated, and I have no idea where this is going (beyond my Treasure Island related knowledge).

As much as Billy is blinded by his hatred of Flint, he isn't really wrong about how Flint is. To me, his whole deal has always been revenge. Sure, I think he does believe in rights for people and freedom and all that, but if, say, Thomas being found was an option, I feel like he would be on the first boat back to wherever he is. Or maybe, after Miranda`s death, he is just obsessed with revenge and will keep fighting until someone just shoots him. Either way, he might not be the guy you want to hitch you wagon to, or at least you should be careful. Billy was also right to warn Silver about Maddi ending up dying because of this. As I said, I feel like this could either end with Flint abandoning everything to get Thomas back, or keeping the fighting going even after its clear everyone will die. Not that Billy is making the best and most impartial life choices these days, but still. Silver looked like he might have considering his exit strategy, and how he and Maddi can have a plan B. Not that I don't like Flint or anything, but I don't exactly trust him.

Wow, that was a nasty fight between Anne and Redcoat guy. I really do hope that she and Jack can sail away into the sunset at the end of this. Yeah, I know that's not what happened in history, but since when has this show allowed little details like historical accuracy to get in the way of their story! With so many of the scenes here being about the past relationships between people who have fallen out, its nice seeing them still together. They've had their issues, but they always come back to each other. And they've never tried to kill each other or betray each other to be arrested or something, which, on this show, is basically true love.

*Really good line

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This may well be my favourite episode, which is impressive considering the high bar this show sets for itself every week, but the theme of personal desire vs the bigger picture was beautifully strewn throughout the episode, and the power dynamics are like a fine wine. In fact, my new favourite scene is the one just before Billy's entrance, in which Flint, Madi and Silver exchange silent looks depending on who's talking. Gah, so good.

Then we had both Billy and Israel try to drive a wedge between the Silver/Flint partnership (symbolised perfectly with them ending up on opposite sides of that gate), and both Flint and Silver considering the possibility that they would ditch this whole endeavour for the sake of their significant other: Madi and Thomas. And THIS was in turn beautifully paralleled to Eleanor coming to that exact conclusion: throwing in the towel so that she and Max and her unborn child (and Mrs I Can't Remember Her Name) can get the hell out of dodge. She at least has come to the realization that none of this has been worth it, and I expect that Silver won't be too far behind

Spoiler

(after all, we know where he and Madi end up in "Treasure Island"). 

And Thomas Hamilton may still be alive!! I have considered this possibility for a while, and I'll forever regret not posting that theory on this board so I could whip out my receipt. But as soon as Max started talking about a philanthropist who hired English convicts who shamed their families, I started sitting upright in my chair. In other words, I had Silver's reaction. Holy shit, if it's true, this will change everything. 

I was actually moved by the conversation between Eleanor and Mrs I Can't Remember Her Name; how the former vowed to keep her promise and the latter admitted she had grown protective of her. They seem to be unpopular around here, but I won't have a problem with Eleanor/Max riding off into the sunset together, and I think it's a real possibility considering Eleanor brought up Max's offer way back in season 1. She's going to take that woman's advice (without knowing it): that at some point you just have to cut your loses and build a wall around you and your loved ones. 

I always fist-pump whenever I see depictions of black slaves fighting back against their oppressors. I mean honestly, white colonists rip African people from their homes, tear families apart, brutalise their bodies, put them to hard labour, and THEN start to piss and moan when (surprise!) the slaves finally say: "fuck this" and start to fight back. Don't wanna get murdered? Don't be a fucking slave owner. I will never feel a single ounce of pity for any fictional character (or real person) who benefits from slavery. 

So I loved the extra twist of the remaining freed slaves distrusting the pirates as much as their former owners, and it was another great conversation between Madi and her informer. She's also beginning to realize the conclusion that Billy has already come to: that with Flint, it's just one storm after another. 

Even if I didn't know this was the last season, I would probably be able to tell just from the burn-out that so many characters are starting to feel. 

Edited by Ravenya003
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I think it's a bit easier to deduce the endgame now.

Yes, the pointless Berringer was the token English sacrificial cow.  No, none of the girls will die. That wouldn't be comme il faut. Rackham will hang. The governor will survive. Eleanor will survive. Anne and Max will survive and ride into the sunset together.

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14 minutes ago, Kathemy said:

I think it's a bit easier to deduce the endgame now.

Yes, the pointless Berringer was the token English sacrificial cow.  No, none of the girls will die. That wouldn't be comme il faut. Rackham will hang. The governor will survive. Eleanor will survive. Anne and Max will survive and ride into the sunset together.

Maybe,  but one never knows with this show.  Why do you think none of the women will die?

Has Eleanor been humanized just because she's carrying Satan's spawn?

I would like to see Anne and Max ride off together though.

I wouldn't be surprised if Eleanor dies though.

Edited by Neurochick

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I can't see all the women getting off scottfree. I think at least one of them will die. 

 

4 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Short of sailing back to another part of the African continent, there would be no permanent safe place.  From the little I know of the Maroon people, they HAD to live in remote, relatively inaccessible areas in order to survive.  

 

Even sailing back to Africa wouldn't be an option i.e. safe, considering this time in history was at the height of the slave trade. They'd likely get captured at sea, by pirates no less and sold back into slavery or return to the mother country only to end up recaptured and enslaved once more. 

Jamiaca has a rich history in Maroon colonies in which Captain Cudjoe and other Maroon captains harassed the British for decades until everyone grew tired of the carnage and an agreement was reached to co-habit. It wasn't the greatest situation being as they could no longer take on runaway slaves (amongst other things), but it seemed to work for those who were already apart of the Maroon colony. The show could explore a similar path with Madi's community. However, I don't think they're going in that direction.  

Edited by Enero

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It's too bad the show could not have had maybe about 5 more episodes or so we could have seen some of the relationships develop. I think another 10 would have been too much but seeing - I forget her name - Eleanor's ex-guard acting so fond towards Eleanor I thought, wait, since when is she so friendly towards Eleanor?

I wish Silver and Max had had more scenes together over the course of the series, they were always a bit intriguing. After her telling him in episode 2 she was going to send him away, I was thinking that eventually he was going to end up giving the same offer to her, which I thought would have been a cool parallel, but Silver figuring out Thomas Hamilton might have been sent there was a pretty cool twist. I wonder now if Flint will end up going there instead and

 

rumors of his death will have turned out to have been greatly exaggerated in the book.

I kind of don't want Flint to have that at this point, but I guess Thomas deserves someone to rescue him.

Edited by ulkis

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1 hour ago, Kathemy said:

Rackham will hang. The governor will survive. Eleanor will survive. Anne and Max will survive and ride into the sunset together.

Yeah, I think it will be either Anne and Max or Eleanor with them.

Or Eleanor will stay with Rogers but it will turn out to be a double edged-sword for her. She'll have to live a life of domesticity which she'll hate. 

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2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Has Eleanor been humanized just because she's carrying Satan's spawn?

The only thing I have been praying for since season 1 is Eleanor's death, so I really hope they don't chicken out now that she's pregnant [with Satan's spawn! Lol!].

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3 hours ago, Kathemy said:

I think it's a bit easier to deduce the endgame now.

Yes, the pointless Berringer was the token English sacrificial cow.  No, none of the girls will die. That wouldn't be comme il faut. Rackham will hang. The governor will survive. Eleanor will survive. Anne and Max will survive and ride into the sunset together.

My theory is a little different ... (Treasure Island spoilers under the cut):

Spoiler

Obviously Silver and Billy are safe, as they're Treasure Island characters. Ditto Ben Gunn, who turned up again this episode, and Israel Hands. Madi also seems like a certainty, and I wouldn't be surprised if the inn she and Silver are running in TI is the new base of operations for the settlement on Maroon Island (fulfilling Mr Scott's function of sending runaways and supplies to the population there). 

Jack will definitely die. Though they've played fast and loose with history, I don't think they'll avoid the fact that he DID hang in real life. Anne will survive, again according to history (her fate is somewhat unknown, but she escaped the noose due to pregnancy). However, I don't think she'll ride off into the sunset with Max - but perhaps Mary Read will show up in the final few seconds of her screen-time.

It's Max and Eleanor that'll make it out together. I can easily see Rogers getting killed (just after learning his wife is pregnant) and Max/Eleanor rekindling their relationship and heading either to London or Philadelphia. 

Flint has to survive long enough to change the location of the treasure - but for the first time, I actually think there's a chance he'll survive. You don't drop a massive hint that Thomas might still be alive without planning to follow up on it, so there's every chance he'll fake his death and actually get a happy ending. I can't believe I just wrote that sentence! 

Now seems as good a time as any to ask: how close do you think the show will get to the opening chapters of Treasure Island? With Flint reburying the treasure and shooting his men? With Silver and Madi installed at their inn? Billy cast into exile with the treasure map? A cameo from Jim Hawkins? I can't imagine them not going for that last one, especially if it's Silver arriving at the Admiral Benbow Inn and introducing himself to Hawkins (with a parrot on his shoulder, of course. That is ESSENTIAL).

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Spoiler

If you cite history as reason Anne will survive, then Rogers will survive too.

Edited by kariyaki · Reason: added spoiler tag for future history spoilers
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If Madi is killed (I don't think she will but you never know with this show), I will be super pissed! Plus, they've already done loved one killed turning character dark story with Flint/Thomas/Miranda. 

I seriously doubt Thomas is alive but I see Silver spinning a story that he is in order to manipulate Flint at some point in the future( Tumblr will implode if that happens. Lol).

Loved that Billy knew he fucked up, tried to break the tension with that story about Boyd brothers and everyone looking at him like, "Okay..and?"

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11 hours ago, ulkis said:

I think another 10 would have been too much but seeing - I forget her name - Eleanor's ex-guard acting so fond towards Eleanor I thought, wait, since when is she so friendly towards Eleanor?

I think it's about respect.  Eleanor is of a higher class and it's in Mrs. Hudson's best interest to be civil to her.  

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On 2/19/2017 at 5:17 AM, Enero said:

Anne is a BADASS.

Word.

On 2/19/2017 at 8:50 PM, Ravenya003 said:

And Thomas Hamilton may still be alive!!

Yes!  Aaaaand now they're just going to toy with us aren't they?  They're going to float the possibility of Flint and Thomas being reunited and then they're going to break our hearts aren't they?

On 2/19/2017 at 9:46 PM, Enero said:

I can't see all the women getting off scottfree. I think at least one of them will die. 

I think Anne is done for.  I think she's going to die of her wounds in Rackham's arms and that's going to make him go nuclear.

On 2/19/2017 at 10:48 PM, ulkis said:

I forget her name - Eleanor's ex-guard

Mrs Hudson.  I had to look it up too.

That episode was rough.  The fights in the ship's hold were just BRUTAL . . . and that was before they went after Anne.  Damn, she was awesome but those body blows  -- I'm afraid those were fatal.  If the internal hemorrhaging doesn't get her the infection from all those cuts will.  Meanwhile, back on the island, things are well and truly fucked.  This show has come full circle because I remember in the very first episode how I was SO confused about who was aligned with who.  It's the same now.  No one is really sure who is siding with who.  I don't believe that Flint really took Eleanor's deal and I sure as shit never heard Silver agree to it even if Flint's surrender was serious.  And how is that supposed to even work?  Eleanor's husband is just minutes away -- they can SEE his ship.  There is no time to go fetch the treasure.  How is she going to stop him landing his men?  How are Silver and Flint supposed to rule pirate island (Nassau) when the word gets out that they gave away the pirate's treasury?  And now we've got a rogue slave rebellion in the mix -- one that hates pirates and slave-owners equally.  This is just going to end SO badly.

Edited by WatchrTina
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Great episode.  Throwing in that Thomas might actually still be alive was exciting, I'd love it if this turned out to be true.

Just read a Toby Stephens interview where he says:

"STEPHENS: Yeah, there is a character that ends up being truly loyal to Flint, and it’s wonderful. In the last few episodes, one of the characters comes into the fore that’s been in the background, and it’s interesting to see what happens there."

I wonder whom he is talking about here?  Any ideas?

http://collider.com/black-sails-season-4-toby-stephens-interview/#lost-in-space-netflix

 

Forgot to say, I'll be gutted if they kill off Anne.  She's my favorite female character after Miranda was killed off.

Edited by MaryMatts

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26 minutes ago, MaryMatts said:

Great episode.  Throwing in that Thomas might actually still be alive was exciting, I'd love it if this turned out to be true.

Just read a Toby Stephens interview where he says:

"STEPHENS: Yeah, there is a character that ends up being truly loyal to Flint, and it’s wonderful. In the last few episodes, one of the characters comes into the fore that’s been in the background, and it’s interesting to see what happens there."

I wonder whom he is talking about here?  Any ideas?

http://collider.com/black-sails-season-4-toby-stephens-interview/#lost-in-space-netflix

 

Forgot to say, I'll be gutted if they kill off Anne.  She's my favorite female character after Miranda was killed off.

My bet is that it's Joji, the Asian pirate who you always see in the background and AFAIK, has never had any dialouge.

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On 2/19/2017 at 4:17 AM, Enero said:

Anne is a BADASS. I hope she recovers, but I don't know, she took some brutal hits before she finally took down Rodgers' men.

I believe the technical term is BAMF. 

On 2/19/2017 at 1:25 PM, Neurochick said:

 I felt sorry for Max because she has lost everything, Eleanor does still have a husband and a baby on the way.

I'm hoping Max survives the series. I did like how she was all, "Hey, El, I told you exactly this was going to happen."

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Now seems as good a time as any to ask: how close do you think the show will get to the opening chapters of Treasure Island?

I hope they end the show with the ship sailing off to Treasure Island. I'd love to see this team put together a TI miniseries.

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This show is about strategy.  I'm a sucker for shows about strategy that makes sense.  I love all of the shifting of loyalties and I love how complex things are.  I think this was really reflective in how they portrayed the slaves and former slaves.  The show initially presented as Pirates v. England.  And we know the English bought slaves which would make them the enemy to slaves.  But pirates too participated in the slave trade so the enemy of my enemy doesn't always translate into friend.  Eventually, the pirates convinced the maroon island folk but just because they're on board doesn't mean other slaves will join.  

And then we have the motive of the pirates.  Flint wants revenge and to fulfill Thomas's dream.  Other pirates want respect.  Others want power.  And others want riches.  Sometimes those desire align to similar objectives but I think we're going to see those different motives lead to cracks in the pirate alliance.

3 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

 

Great episode.  Throwing in that Thomas might actually still be alive was exciting, I'd love it if this turned out to be true.

 

While a reunion would be fun to watch.  I think this show isn't going to be a happily ever after for Flint.

Spoiler

I do think the information Max dropped about a place Thomas could possibly be will start growing in importance and Flint will end up actually having to answer that question rather than answer it as a hypothetical.  But since I think this show is a tragedy, I suspect he'll go--abandoning the struggle--only to find Thomas not there.  Or that he was there but died.  Or he's there but doesn't respect Flint's life choices.  

Edited by Irlandesa
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21 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

This show is about strategy.  I'm a sucker for shows about strategy that make sense.

I watch The Walking Dead and this show in the same day, and it's like night and day.

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While a reunion would be fun to watch.  I think this show isn't going to be a happily ever after for Flint.

No probably not, which is a huge shame because if anyone deserves a happy ending it would be him in my book. 

Besides, I doubt they'll be allowed to take up the gay angle again as it seemed to upset all the fanboys.   I saw so many people saying it "ruined the show" for them when, in actuality, I thought it was a brilliant plot twist.

 

BTW, great site.  Only found it yesterday. So refreshing to find such intelligent discussion about the show.  I think this is the best site I've discovered after the closure of th IMDb boards.

Edited by MaryMatts
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6 hours ago, ganesh said:

I watch The Walking Dead and this show in the same day, and it's like night and day.

Indeed. Lol. That show has gone so far off the rails. It used to be brilliant too...Anyway, I think there's so much going on, that the show won't have time to really explore the Thomas angle. Him being mentioned is a red herring, I think. And as someone stated upthread may be used to manage Flint later in the season. 

However, if they did explore that angle of Thomas being alive, I'm not sure it would end well for Flint. He has certainly changed since he was with Thomas and is severely damaged for it. It will likely be impossible to recapture what was or even move forward from all that's happened.

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Indeed. Lol. That show has gone so far off the rails. It used to be brilliant too..

1 hour ago, Enero said:

Indeed. Lol. That show has gone so far off the rails. It used to be brilliant too...Anyway, I think there's so much going on, that the show won't have time to really explore the Thomas angle. Him being mentioned is a red herring, I think. And as someone stated upthread may be used to manage Flint later in the season. 

However, if they did explore that angle of Thomas being alive, I'm not sure it would end well for Flint. He has certainly changed since he was with Thomas and is severely damaged for it. It will likely be impossible to recapture what was or even move forward from all that's happened.

Well to be fair, TWD is followong the comic narrative pretty closely and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. I could only watch one show last night - either TWD or BS and I opted for BS.  I'll get to TWD tonight.

I'm sure nothing will end well for Flint which sucks because he's the one I'm always rooting for. ?

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When they brought up the idea of Thomas being alive this episode I wondered if they'd have Silver tell Flint he was there to make him abandon this fruitless war, only for Flint to find out he was not there after all. Thus spiralling into the drinking problem that kills him at the beginning of TI, and Silver ending up his ultimate betrayer, using his deepest secret against him, the one who is ultimately "the end of him".

I'd be devastated if that happened though.

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Silver perked up immediately when Max was talking about the prisoners from England though, didn't he?  While she was talking I immediately thought: OMG, Thomas!

So was her idea to kidnap Silver and send him on to that plantation or whatever?  I kind I'd missed the point of that conversation.

i read a review where the reviewer thinks Max is in love with Silver.  Does anyone else get that idea?  I don't...

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i read a review where the reviewer thinks Max is in love with Silver.  Does anyone else get that idea?  I don't...

definitely not. If anything I've always figured Max was gay, or at least strongly preferring women. She loved Eleanor, Anne and given the option to pick someone to relax her, she also went with a girl.

I just don't see this having such a happy end after all the doom and gloom, I think they're only giving us false hope by the hints of Thomas being alive.

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9 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

Besides, I doubt they'll be allowed to take up the gay angle again as it seemed to upset all the fanboys.   I saw so many people saying it "ruined the show" for them when, in actuality, I thought it was a brilliant plot twist.

It had been so long since it came up, I had actually forgotten about it. Silvers mention of it in this episode made me remember. I'm with you -brilliant twist, and it puts such a personal motive to Flint's drive to beat England. Silvers asks him the right question ... do you need to win for vengeance, or would you walk away, if you could have Thomas again? Similar to the discussion Jack and Anne had with Teach that led to Teach chasing Rogers - and that decision to delay vengeance didn't work out so well for Teach.

4 hours ago, KatWay said:

I just don't see this having such a happy end after all the doom and gloom, I think they're only giving us false hope by the hints of Thomas being alive.

Heck, no, it won't end happily. We've already been watching many of the major characters being killed. There's a good chance that almost everyone dies, except those in the background who blow with the wind (i.e., Max).

6 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

Well to be fair, TWD is followong the comic narrative pretty closely and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.

This is off topic, but as someone who loved TWD for 3-4 seasons, and quit watching cold turkey, I can't resist. No idea what the comics say, but I quit watching because it was the same plot, over and over. Rick and team run into another group. There is always, always conflict. A few people die. No one really learns anything. And then they run into another group. Rinse and repeat. I gave up because I found it repetitive.

Edited by Ottis
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On ‎2‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 10:41 AM, FlowerofCarnage said:

Loved that Billy knew he fucked up, tried to break the tension with that story about Boyd brothers and everyone looking at him like, "Okay..and?"

Flint's reaction was the best! "Yeah?" Cracked me up!

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I think Flint will track and find Thomas. However, just when they were about to meet, Julius & crews kill him in front of Flint, which in turn makes Flint snap.

Interesting how Billy and Hands were trying to put a wedge in Flint&Silver alliance, presumably so each could be Silver's #2 man.

I am so confused as to how many men Rodgers actually had left that he would be so confident at attacking the pirates head on.  He split his men once to defend Nassau under Berringer, then he split them again to man the Sloope under lieutenant to seek help.  Flint & Silver might think Rodgers had come with help /extra men to bring them down, but how was Rodgers so confident he had enough power to take back the town???

Also that strong man that beat up Jack's crew, where the hell was he when Rodgers ambushed Teach ???  He was easily twice the size of most Rodger's men, how did I not notice him before???

Edited by DarkRaichu

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I think Flint will track and find Thomas. However, just when they were about to meet, Julius & crews kill him in front of Flint, which in turn makes Flint snap.

Oh God, I really, really hope that doesn't happen lol.  I'd much rather Flint not find Thomas at all than  have that happen to them.  That would just break my heart.

 

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Also that strong man that beat up Jack's crew, where the hell was he when Rodgers ambushed Teach ???  He was easily twice the size of most Rodger's men, how did I not notice him before???

Lol, I think they just sneak things like that in and hope we fans won't notice the discrepancies.  They must be nuts if they think we don't!  A bit like Flint and Silver standing in the front of a whole bunch of their men while facing Berenger and the guys behind them fall like flies while they escape unscathed. 

OFF Topic (please forgive):

Can I say how much I'm enjoying this discussion and this site?  I think I may move here permanently now that IMDb is no longer available.  Does anyone know why there doesn't seem to be a TWD board?  Thanks and sorry if that is not allowed.

Edited by MaryMatts

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Irlandesa, I really like that lost thought of yours - that Flint could find Thomas but Thomas will reject him.  

Edited by ulkis
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On ‎2‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 7:54 PM, tennisgurl said:

 

Wow, that was a nasty fight between Anne and Redcoat guy. I really do hope that she and Jack can sail away into the sunset at the end of this. Yeah, I know that's not what happened in history, but since when has this show allowed little details like historical accuracy to get in the way of their story! With so many of the scenes here being about the past relationships between people who have fallen out, its nice seeing them still together. They've had their issues, but they always come back to each other. And they've never tried to kill each other or betray each other to be arrested or something, which, on this show, is basically true love.

*Really good line

I really hope we get to hear her famous historical line that she says to Jack:

Spoiler

"If you had fought like a man you would not now be dying like a dog!" << I mean c'mon! The writers can't do better than what history recorded! Historically Jack is hung by the neck and Anne Bonny "pleads the belly" (pregnancy)

I loved the talk between Eleanore and Max. God I have loved those two from the beginning. And I damn straight hope Eleanore walks away! Or lives anyway. She has survived so much I want her to survive to old age damnit!

I love everything about the character Flint.

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Excellent episode.   Where to start??

Jack and Anne - loved that Jack trusted Anne enough to let her do her thing; ok, he's not as badass as she is, but still.  My TV was kind of dark so while I knew she was crawling towards something, I didn't know it was glass until she grabbed it.  Plus she has brains enough to grab the key to the chains.  I really, really hope she makes it and that she and Jack take off together - he's pretty much always been there for her and he accepts her.  I know Rogers wanted to go running back to Eleanor, but he should have realized that his hired soldiers wouldn't keep the pirates alive - Rogers doesn't have the "regular" I guess you could say, redcoats who are devoted to king and country, etc etc.

Max and Silver - a good, quiet scene.  I believe Max when she said she couldn't have lived with herself if Silver were killed, that she only wanted him arrested.  Silver's different now, but they worked together once and understand each other.  Billy was smart to grab her and I agree that her public death would have united the pirates, but I'm glad she was released.  She's grabbed opportunities that came her way and was able to position herself well; unfortunately allying with the British backfired.  I hope she makes it out alive to somewhere where she's in control of her life.

Madi - what an impossible position.   She's too responsible to take off with Silver; she has a duty to her people.  Maybe she can meet with Julius and work something out?  The slaves who've revolted are in an impossible position too - everyone wants to use them, no one is loyal to them.  Still, who killed the family on the Underhill estate?  The redcoats or the pirates?  My money's on the redcoats.

Silver/Flint/Billy - is something going on with Silver and Flint that we haven't seen yet?  With Eleanor maybe, where she offers to leave the island in exchange for the treasure and this is somehow a set up to undermine Billy and for Silver/Flint/Eleanor to get what they want?  There was a significant look between Flint and Eleanor at the Max exchange and I have a hard time believing Flint would just up and take her offer like he did in the fort, with no planning.   If that's the case, I hope Silver is in on it.  I could just be seeing things because I enjoy the Flint/Silver pairing but Billy wasn't wrong - Flint's plans seem to only lead to chaos.  I love Flint though and hope he finds Thomas, fakes his death, and they live together with some of the gold.  Silver takes off with Madi, gets some gold and the legend.  I'd be OK with Eleanor getting out with the rest of the gold if that happens, as long as Max is OK. 

Silver and Flint don't realize that Jack will be on his way back with a warship and a bunch of pissed off pirates though. 

What a ride!  I may end up with the full series DVDs when all is said and done, what a great binge watch this would be.  The ending has to be good though (looking at you, Penny Dreadful).

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22 hours ago, MaryMatts said:

No probably not, which is a huge shame because if anyone deserves a happy ending it would be him in my book. 

Thomas or Flint? 

Thomas deserves a happy ending, but Flint no longer does. While Flint was greatly wronged and those that wronged him created a monster, Flint has embraced the role that civilization gave him with relish. In his single-minded pursuit for revenge he's killed a lot of innocent people, as well as throwing his fellow pirates under the bus whenever it suited him, including the betrayal and murder of a man (Gates) who was the closest thing he had to a friend after his exile to the West Indies. 

Flint may be my favorite character in Black Sails, but he's a despicable man who deserves whatever bad end is headed his way. None of the pirates deserve a happy ending really, and for most I hope Gates' speech proves prophetic.

Book spoilers ahoy...

 

The bad end for Flint is dying an alcoholic in Savannah, his last words calling for more rum, if the TV series sticks with the backstory Treasure Island gives him. Given that history says the pirates have to lose, probably after seeing all his plans unravel.

Edited by Scaeva
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Thomas or Flint? 

Both.  Thomas if he is still alive...doubtful. And Flint well, because i'm an incurable romantic.  I know he's done awful things but so have millions of people the world over who live on to a ripe old age. ?

I know it won't happen because the writers have to show morality like in all American shows but doesn't stop me hoping....

Edited by MaryMatts
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I love the Flint/Silver mentor/mentee relationship, but I think Flint surrendering to Eleanor (I cannot believe he trusts her to honor the "deal." Not to mention the "deal"has enough holes in it to sink a ship.

I think Flint is trying to send a message to Silver that he isn't who Billy says he is.  That is the only reason that I can figure that Flint would turn himself over to the other side.  I expect Billy to do more stupid shit.

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Flint may be my favorite character in Black Sails, but he's a despicable man who deserves whatever bad end is headed his way. None of the pirates deserve a happy ending really, and for most I hope Gates' speech proves prophetic.

Most of the characters on this show are despicable human beings.  Most of them have brutality in their hearts in one form or another.

Anne really was ballsy, willing to stand up to the big bad dude.  She gave more than she got in the fight.  I fear she is dead, I hope she is not.

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With Flint, it isn't even about what he deserves or doesn't deserve. I can't picture him being able to settle down. Like Miranda said, he doesn't know how to stop fighting.

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15 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Most of the characters on this show are despicable human beings.  Most of them have brutality in their hearts in one form or another.

While true, Flint's worse than most. Flint only ever cared about himself, Thomas, Miranda, and his own quest for revenge. Every one that isn't Thomas or Miranda and becomes a speed bump to obtaining that revenge is expendable, including friends and allies.

That separates him from Billy and Silver, who while pirates that also have innocent blood on their hands, at least care to some degree about the crew and aren't as eager to sacrifice them to achieve selfish goals.

Edited by Scaeva
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