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S04.E04: A Lie Guarded

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Continued struggles with leadership and trust in Arkadia and Polis take violent turns while Abby leads a team to a distant location hoping to find answers.

 

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I'm going to try an experiment.  I'm leaving this thread unlocked, trusting that no one will post until after the episode has aired.

If people start posting prematurely, it gets locked.

Back to our regularly scheduled apocalypse...

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Yay Octavia is alive. I rather she be leader of the pack and her smart horse who found her too.

Monty calling out Clarke on her playing God, dictating who would live and die was awesome. Loved that he carried out Jasper's plan.  

Clarke hasn't learned anything even after all the people she's killed due to her decision making. She's just vile, and Bellamy was on the list but not Monty? After all the people dead because of him and Pike? He's not a leader they need. We're supposed to feel sorry for him for him grieving Octavia? I didn't.

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A lottery is an incredibly stupid plan, good luck repopulating the earth with 80 men and 20 post menopausal women and no doctor.  As unfair as it is there has to be a ruthless logic to the list.  Hopefully Jaha is smart enough to rig the lottery if it comes down to it.

 While Clarke didn't express herself well, she is not wrong. Young kids, the sick  and the very old have no place, duplicate skill sets need to be managed.  Your first pick would be all the young fertile women with a needed skill set and a clean medical history, then fill what skills you can (a mix of men and woman) and then stack whatever spaces are left with as genetically diverse young women as you can get.  

Bellamy didn't get much to do but Bob knocked the grief out the park.  I enjoyed Octavia's little Aragon tribute at the end also. 

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1 hour ago, Nay said:

A lottery is an incredibly stupid plan, good luck repopulating the earth with 80 men and 20 post menopausal women and no doctor.  As unfair as it is there has to be a ruthless logic to the list.  Hopefully Jaha is smart enough to rig the lottery if it comes down to it.

 While Clarke didn't express herself well, she is not wrong. Young kids, the sick  and the very old have no place, duplicate skill sets need to be managed.  Your first pick would be all the young fertile women with a needed skill set and a clean medical history, then fill what skills you can (a mix of men and woman) and then stack whatever spaces are left with as genetically diverse young women as you can get.  

Bellamy didn't get much to do but Bob knocked the grief out the park.  I enjoyed Octavia's little Aragon tribute at the end also. 

Yes, I imagine Jaha suggested a lottery so that everyone would feel motivated to work on the ship, but ultimately, Clarke's list will be the (smart) way to go.

I enjoyed the prank of Jaha's being floated. That one was good.

I wonder what they'll find in Becca/ALIE's lab. So are we to assume she was protecting it against some other threat than grounders? That part wasn't clear.

I like Octavia's little warrior thing, but the ending was such a rip off from The Lord of the Rings...

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4 hours ago, Artsda said:

Yay Octavia is alive. I rather she be leader of the pack and her smart horse who found her too.

Monty calling out Clarke on her playing God, dictating who would live and die was awesome. Loved that he carried out Jasper's plan.  

Clarke hasn't learned anything even after all the people she's killed due to her decision making. She's just vile, and Bellamy was on the list but not Monty? After all the people dead because of him and Pike? He's not a leader they need. We're supposed to feel sorry for him for him grieving Octavia? I didn't.

 

The whole thing is so weird. Monty wasn't on the list because he's just an apprentice, but Clarke was on it even though she's an apprentice herself? Jaha almost brought the apocalypse down on them but he's more deserving of life than some other innocent and skilled person, just because he's an engineer when they already have other engineers? And by what criteria was Octavia on that list? How is she more useful than Monty or Harper, when one is an engineer and the other is a guard with fighting and weapons experience? And even if she was more worthy in terms of skills, is it really a good idea to have a bloodthirsty assassin living side by side with people she doesn't even consider hers? And what made Clarke think Octavia would even want to be on the list?

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3 hours ago, Nay said:

Hopefully Jaha is smart enough to rig the lottery if it comes down to it.

Didn't he pretty much say he's just doing it to keep them working? I would think certain places would be mandatory like doctor / engineer but lottery could still be an option for a proportion of the places. 

Clarke, I know you're stuck with the whole leadship thing but really Jaha should not be your guide for anything. I can't believe I have to agree with Jasper (speaking of him, it's a shame it wasn't black rain in the beginning of the episode to grant him his wish).

Octavia lives! I would have been pissed if they'd just killed her like that. I hope she finds Indra. Actually I just hope Indra's ok. I think I'd be more pissed off if they killed than if it was Octavia.

I was glad to see my girl Raven kicking ass and getting things done. She's just awesome. What would they do without her.

Is it wrong I'm sort of hoping they don't save everyone? Save a group of them in a bunker or whatever, skip 5 years (or however long they had to stay inside) and just show the crew  fighting those giant gorillas and sea monsters instead of they get a S5. The show does better when focused on fewer people. 

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I'm not unhappy that Octavia is alive but the suspension of disbelief has to be strong here. If she survived just the stabbing, I could buy it but after a sword goes all the way through her body AND she falls off a cliff a gazillion miles up in the air....no. Even if she landed in water, that fall alone would kill her. Whatever...I'll just fanwank that she's immortal.  (Also, I agree, why the hell is Octavia on the list?)

So Luna refuses to help Skaikru, then she shows up on their doorstep begging for their help, they actually help her, then she gets all indignant and tries to run away when they ask for her help again. Like, what's her damage?

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1 hour ago, dippydee said:

Is it wrong I'm sort of hoping they don't save everyone? Save a group of them in a bunker or whatever, skip 5 years (or however long they had to stay inside) and just show the crew  fighting those giant gorillas and sea monsters instead of they get a S5. The show does better when focused on fewer people. 

Given the title of the show I don't its a coincidence that they can only save 100 people and that events keep conspiring against other alternatives. My hunch is the Night Blood plan will fail or have unintended consequences and enough mooks from Sky Crew will get killed off before the season ends to ensure that all the regulars (even Jasper) end up as survivors of the worst case scenario.

Octavia is actually one of the obvious ones for the list by Clarke's criteria (and Clarke is as well, she just couldn't bring herself to put herself on the list herself); The priority for repopulating the species after they ride out the radiation is on young fertile women.

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26 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Yes but there are plenty of young, fertile women to choose from. What special skill does Octavia have other than  being trained as a Grounder warrior?

You answered your own question. Once you get out of the bunker, you've going to need people able to hunt/track/kill game and depending likely using the primitive methods of the grounders because with only 100 or fewer (no guarantees everyone lives through the time in the bunker) people they are NOT going to be able to hold onto all the technical knowledge they're relying on to survive.

For example, today no one person has all the skills necessary to make a pencil from scratch... i.e. mining for graphite core and aluminum cap, the chemical formula for the rubber eraser and paint, how to make the tools to mine and manufacture the needed raw materials, etc... the humble pencil sits atop a mountain of innovations and suppliers.

Realistically, if Clarke cared about preserving the human race she should be prioritizing people who know the basics of survival; how to hunt, how to work metal and weave cloth, carpentry and the basics of medicine... i.e. the Grounders; over a lot of the Sky Crew people. They should only be bringing enough engineers to keep the bunker running through the radiation storm because there's just not going to be enough humans left afterward to actually rebuild any sort of advanced civilization. Their just isn't enough collective processing power in a hundred human brains, even with access to technical manuals, to get beyond a slightly schizo-Iron Age. Holding onto germ theory wouldn't be hard and a huge improvement over the actual Iron Age for example.

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Guess I respectfully disagree. Octavia has been trained how to fight and her main "skill set" is killing people, I haven't seen any special hunting skills from her, certainly no better than any of the others. And, seeing as how everyone will be dead from radiation except the 100 people in the ship, they won't be needing her ass-kicking skills to fight anybody. She has demonstrated many times that she doesn't really care about following rules so, if anything, I would consider her a loose cannon with potential for violence.  She definitely wouldn't make my list. YMMV.

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I would invite each person to make their own list of 100 then read them aloud. Explain to everyone not on your list why they didn't make the cut. Watch them turn on each other.  

The people who made the list certainly were not sticking up for the people who didn't. Not sure why she didn't tell them it was Bellamy that put her on the list. 

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Oh silly grounders, you have released the Kraken.  Bellamy loves his sister; and he's the only one of the 100 who has an actual biological sister, and he's been super protective of her from the second she was born.

It was interesting to see the contrast between scruffy, dirty people inside the sterile white lab.

I still like Jasper, especially at the end of the episode, but lately I  want to smack him upside the head because he's wearing my last nerve.

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15 minutes ago, Rachel RSL said:

Guess I respectfully disagree. Octavia has been trained how to fight and her main "skill set" is killing people, I haven't seen any special hunting skills from her, certainly no better than any of the others. And, seeing as how everyone will be dead from radiation except the 100 people in the ship, they won't be needing her ass-kicking skills to fight anybody. She has demonstrated many times that she doesn't really care about following rules so, if anything, I would consider her a loose cannon with potential for violence.  She definitely wouldn't make my list. YMMV.

I also don't see her as willing to give birth.  I would think you need at least 2 or 3 couples willing to try and have as many kids as possible otherwise how do you plan on enforcing the repopulating rule?

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2 minutes ago, Boofish said:

I also don't see her as willing to give birth.

While Octavia fit the bill of young fertile female, she's woefully unfit to actually to be mother. She has emotional range of a bratty 13-years-old that can't control her emotions and has abusive tendencies she never has to deal in her life with and at this point never will. Maybe Bellamy would be better at raising Octavia's potential child? But since he's on the list, he would have to have children of his own...

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Echo kicked Aragorn's ass :)) I guess Octagon is going back to Arkadia now (which she didn't want to the first time) and will tell Clarke that the flame was not destroyed.

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Speaking of lists and baby making, I think Echo made another step that will bring her closer to Bellamy. The show clearly telegraphs their upcoming romance for couple of seasons now: first she had got his girlfriend killed, then she threatened to cut Clarke's head off in episode 1, now she supposedly killed Bellamy's sister, the only person Bellamy loved, cherished and protected before coming to the ground. I really hope those obvious romantic overtures from Echo will bear fruit in the back half of the season. I'm rooting for them to finally get together. Maybe if Echo blame Octavia's "death" on Bellamy, he's spit into her face and call her names? I believe in these crazy kids, and in Kim Shumway to make it happen organically and beautifully!

Other than that the episode was kinda of complete bullshit, and Kim Shumway proved once again how bad a writers she is.

Bob Morley's acting saved the entire thing for me, even though it was for really contrived idiotic drama and Kim Shumway's hard-on for Octagon.

Edited by CooperTV

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If Clarke was really smart that 100 would be a mix of grounder and ark people, just for the genetic diversity. The most common absolutely lowest number thrown about for space colonization is around 160, anything lower and the risks from disease and inbreeding related genetic problems are pretty damn high.  So they need any genetic help they can get.

I'm not sure having the list weight towards hunters would be a plus though, that wall of burning radiation is going to kill everything that you can hunt, if the fire doesn't get them the sickness will. So any food you hope to eat after 5 years is most likely at the start going to be a continuation of what you brought with you, something the Ark specializes in. 

I also kind of hope the nightblood doesn't work, or doesn't work as well as it should. The cast could do with a massive trim.

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6 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

I'm not unhappy that Octavia is alive but the suspension of disbelief has to be strong here. If she survived just the stabbing, I could buy it but after a sword goes all the way through her body AND she falls off a cliff a gazillion miles up in the air....no. Even if she landed in water, that fall alone would kill her. Whatever...I'll just fanwank that she's immortal.  (Also, I agree, why the hell is Octavia on the list?)

I agree!! Octavia being alive requires so much suspension of disbelief; I think I strained my eyes from all the eye rolling I did.

7 hours ago, dippydee said:

I can't believe I have to agree with Jasper (speaking of him, it's a shame it wasn't black rain in the beginning of the episode to grant him his wish).

The writers really need to stop teasing Jasper dying; either kill him off or stop with the teasing!

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I didn't really enjoy this episode; I felt like the Arkadia & Grounder storylines were predictable. I mean who would have predicted someone would find Clarke's list, and who would have predicted that Roan would react poorly when he found out what Sky Crew was up to. I really have no interest in watching Grounders & Sky Crew going to war.

The only story lines that I'm interested at the moment are Ali's lab and Raven's headaches. What is the lab being protected against? And are Raven's headaches  

Spoiler

 an indication that Ali somehow download herself into Raven's brain?

On a positive note Roan did ditch that ugly looking crown. :D

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5 minutes ago, Fireball said:

And are Raven's headaches  

  Hide contents

 an indication that Ali somehow download herself into Raven's brain?

It means Raven now has an enhanced brain because of the ALIE experience in Nevermore, when she was able to read ALIE's basic code in the CoL. It was confirmed by Jasper in episode 4.01. Jason Rothenberg also mentioned it is a thing now over the hiatus.

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2 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

It means Raven now has an enhanced brain because of the ALIE experience in Nevermore, when she was able to read ALIE's basic code in the CoL. It was confirmed by Jasper in episode 4.01. Jason Rothenberg also mentioned it is a thing now over the hiatus.

Thanks, I'm obviously not paying enough attention. So now on top of having a bum leg and all the other horrible things Raven gets to have nasty headaches too. She really can't catch a break.

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A lot of silly drama in this episode, but my main issue is that all of this could have been avoided, if Clarke just hid the damn list better.  It was freaking sticking out!  She didn't even hide it in between other papers or some shit!  What the hell, Clarke?!

Besides that, it was basically what I figured which is that Clarke's reasons were logical and probably even right, but she just has no tact or social skills to sell it to anyone, and didn't seem prepared for any of the blowback.  Even if she was "right", she had to know that putting someone like Jaha on the list would cause major issues with the rest of them.  And not putting Monty on there, even though he's been an important contributor to their mission.  And, of course, having both Bellamy and Octavia on there makes her look like she's playing favorites. To be fair, Clarke was off guard, but she really isn't good at maneuvering and talking to people.  It's sad when Jaha himself is the one to calm things down.  Not a good look, Clarke!

And, of course, this means now that Roan breaks the treaty, kidnaps Bellamy and Kane, and they going off to war.  They try to get Octavia too, but she fights back, gets stabbed by Echo, falls off a massive cliff into a river, and, of course: survives.  A bit far-fetched to say the least.  I also thought it was a little weird that she was holding her own against Echo and another solider, but once she defeated the latter, Echo suddenly whooped her.  Was Octavia winded?  Was the other guy just messing up Echo's rhythm, and she got back into the groove of it once he was dispatched?

At least Abbie, Murphy, Raven, and company get Luna to the bunker, after dealing with drones and having to talk Luna out from bailing.  Oh, and they lost poor Nyko.  RIP, buddy!  And even though I like Emori, I kind of want them to go there with Raven and Murphy.  That would be entertaining!

Jasper is really one of those characters who is right in a lot of ways, but I just find him insufferable.  I even loved Clarke tazing his ass. 

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44 minutes ago, thuganomics85 said:

 I also thought it was a little weird that she was holding her own against Echo and another solider, but once she defeated the latter, Echo suddenly whooped her.  Was Octavia winded?  Was the other guy just messing up Echo's rhythm, and she got back into the groove of it once he was dispatched?

I would guess that Echo and random grounder were trying to follow the 'capture her alive' directive, so Octavia could hold her own for awhile because they weren't actually trying to hurt her. Then random grounder bites it and Echo possibly looses her temper and starts fighting for real, that's when we see her hand Octavia her arse. 

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1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

And even though I like Emori, I kind of want them to go there with Raven and Murphy.  That would be entertaining!

I really hope they don't do that with them. Emori tempers his more asshole tendencies (usually by looking out for no1 even more than him), but he shot Raven! Not even a Bellamy style roll in the hay is acceptable with that pairing. That said, I do I like that she's softened a little towards him. She does snark almost as well as him so I could do with a little non hateful bantering between them. The show is in need of a little humour from time to time.

 

1 hour ago, thuganomics85 said:

Jasper is really one of those characters who is right in a lot of ways, but I just find him insufferable.  I even loved Clarke tazing his ass. 

That was definitely one of my episode highlights. The thing with Jasper is he might be right sometimes but he doesn't do a single thing to help. A couple of episodes ago when both he and Raven were giving Clarke sh*t about keeping the impending nuclear winter a secret, at least Raven was also trying to be proactive and do something about it. I'm sure Jasper has some pretty severe PTSD but at this point who on the show doesn't? He's not the only one with scars and losses. He needs to get over himself and if he really wants to self destruct they should let him, preferably off screen. 

Edited by dippydee
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13 hours ago, Boofish said:

I would invite each person to make their own list of 100 then read them aloud. Explain to everyone not on your list why they didn't make the cut. Watch them turn on each other.  

The people who made the list certainly were not sticking up for the people who didn't. Not sure why she didn't tell them it was Bellamy that put her on the list. 

I really wanted Clarke me to do something like this. Tell them, "Fine. You don't like my list? Y'all make your own then."

I'm so tired of whiners like Jasper and Monty mansplaining leadership skills to Clarke while they sit around and complain. If they can do better, lead. I'm with those who loved Clarke getting her minions to tase Jasper. 

"Clarke didn't include herself. Bellamy added her!" I wanted to scream. I agree she should have told them all that.

Octavia is a badass warrior who's willing to die for her tribe. She's fearless and brave. Those are necessary attributes for survival. I'd keep her too.

I'm not loving this season so far. Seems like we saw this story already, back in season one. And I don't think I realized how much I enjoyed Lexa and the complexities of Grounder politics/diplomacy until she was erased from memory. Roan is pretty boring as a villain, I think, typical. Same with Echo.

I do like Luna, though. A lot. Hope her role is beefed up as the season progresses.

Edited by madam magpie
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Based on that map in the previouslies, Mt. Weather and Arkadia are about 30-40 miles apart. Polis is about 150 miles from Arkadia.  TonDC is about 100-110 miles from Arkadia.  Luna's rig is about 30-40 miles off the coast of Delaware and Becca's island is about 20-25 miles off the coast of New Jersey (probably close to 300 miles from Arkadia).

And before they got vehicles this season, they used to walk everywhere.  100s of miles by foot.  What is this -- the now canceled 'Revolution' ?

And where are they getting all this meteorological data from ?  I somehow doubt the weather satellites in orbit are still working -- then again the nuclear reactors lasted 97 years, so who the hell knows at this point.

Still no sign of those two cities in the intro -- why even bother showing them ?

Where did they get that boat from ?  Let alone a fully fueled boat that could take them all the way up the coast from Chesapeake Bay ?

Smell ya later Nyko.

Oh no, Octavia -- it's just a flesh wound -- bet that fall off the cliff is going to sting.

It's just ridiculous that the horse made it's way down the cliff to find a fallen warrior along the river -- this whole scene of the horse finding her, climbing on the horse and bringing her back is straight out of 'LOTR: The Two Towers'.

Where do the drones go to recharge ?  Especially since that lab was powered down.  Does it have maintenance bots/roombas to keep everything squeaky clean after 97+ years ? Even with the auxiliary power off ?  What was that lab even designed to make in the first place ?  Was Becca creating bioweapons in her spare time when she wasn't creating an AI to destroy the world ?

Edited by ottoDbusdriver

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1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Based on that map in the previouslies, Mt. Weather and Arkadia are about 30-40 miles apart. Polis is about 150 miles from Arkadia.  TonDC is about 100-1110 miles from Arkadia.  Luna's rig is about 30-40 miles off the coast of Delaware and Becca's island is about 20-25 miles off the coast of New Jersey (probably close to 300 miles from Arkadia).

According to The 100 Wiki, Arkadia is in 13 miles from Mt. Weather, 50 miles from Azgeda territory, a day walk from TonDC.

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Where did they get that boat from ?  Let alone a fully fueled boat that could take them all the way up the coast from Chesapeake Bay ?

Isn't it the boat Jaha and Murphy traveled to ALIE/Becca's mansion in seasons 2/3 and they stole it maybe from some randos?

1 hour ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Where do the drones go to recharge ?  Especially since that lab was powered down.  Does it have maintenance bots/roombas to keep everything squeaky clean after 97+ years ? Even with the auxiliary power off ?

Solar panels in The 100 universe are magic?

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I'm so tired of whiners like Jasper and Monty mansplaining leadership skills to Clarke while they sit around and complain. If they can do better, lead. I'm with those who loved Clarke getting her minions to tase Jasper.  "Clarke didn't include herself. Bellamy added her!" I wanted to scream. I agree she should have told them all that.

It doesn't matter that he added her, she let herself be on the list. Shouldn't captains be going down with the ship and the last one to safety after all their people? I bet Octavia would refuse to go leaving others to die in her spot. Clarke and Bellamy though would say "see ya." 

There's like half a dozen leaders or former chancellors on the list while people like Monty and apprentice's left to die?  Do they really need Jaha after all he did? Plus Clarke, plus Bellamy (after all he just did), plus Kane. They need 4 leaders who would probably just all fight each other for power? 

Clarke's leadership has gotten more people killed than saved,  so I'd gladly see someone else take over. However she won't allow it. She needs to be the one making the decisions and then she can claim she's doing it for her people.

Edited by Artsda
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7 hours ago, Artsda said:

It doesn't matter that he added her, she let herself be on the list. Shouldn't captains be going down with the ship and the last one to safety after all their people? I bet Octavia would refuse to go leaving others to die in her spot. Clarke and Bellamy though would say "see ya." 

There's like half a dozen leaders or former chancellors on the list while people like Monty and apprentice's left to die?  Do they really need Jaha after all he did? Plus Clarke, plus Bellamy (after all he just did), plus Kane. They need 4 leaders who would probably just all fight each other for power? 

Clarke's leadership has gotten more people killed than saved,  so I'd gladly see someone else take over. However she won't allow it. She needs to be the one making the decisions and then she can claim she's doing it for her people.

This is the flak political leaders always get from populism: "We, the people, who have no skills or experience, can do better!" Someone like Jasper would lead this group into a black hole.

Leading means making incredibly difficult choices sometimes, but I'm so tired of this "Clarke gets more people killed than she saves." Clarke is the only one (save Bellamy) willing to step up, take charge, risk her life for the group, and get shit done. That's an incredibly valuable skill set and something that is needed to rebuild a society. No, she shouldn't go down with the ship. The goal is for humanity to survive and rebuild.

Jasper and Monty are drains on society, Jasper especially. They aren't challenging her in an effort to be leaders. They're complaining because they can't face or don't like her decisions, so they resort to upheaval and chaos. They don't want to lead themselves; they just want to undermine Clarke. If they'd like to be the ones who make the hard choices, they should challenge her authority for real. But they don't. Nobody does. Because none of the others really want to be the leader...because it's an incredibly hard and self-sacrificing role.

Edited by madam magpie
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7 hours ago, Artsda said:

It doesn't matter that he added her, she let herself be on the list. Shouldn't captains be going down with the ship and the last one to safety after all their people? I bet Octavia would refuse to go leaving others to die in her spot. Clarke and Bellamy though would say "see ya." 

Clarke's leadership has gotten more people killed than saved,  so I'd gladly see someone else take over. However she won't allow it. She needs to be the one making the decisions and then she can claim she's doing it for her people.

Aww she's not so bad. While I've been side eyeing her choices most of this season. She's the reason they got as far as they did. They probably would have been dead long ago without Clarke's input. I don't see anything wrong with her taking the spot. She's the one who will make the decisions in a crunch. While other people spend more time debating, she will act and that definitely seems like a necessary trait. Say what you will, girl has solid instinct for self preservation. She's a survivor.

I am totally with the random Arkadian though, Bellamy should not be on the list. I get he's mid redemption arc but Monty would be more useful than him. Come on Clarke!

Edited by dippydee
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58 minutes ago, dippydee said:

I am totally with the random Arkadian though, Bellamy should not be on the list.

Excuse you! If useless head chopper Octavia on that list, Bellamy, who's Clarke co-leader, the person she values pretty much the most of them all and overall caring and good person, should be on that list.

Also, those Blake genes are perfect and the future generations should benefit from having them!

Edited by CooperTV
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20 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Octagon is on the list for repopulating reason, why is Bellamy on the list instead of Monty?

It's a leading question, Your Honor!

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2 hours ago, CooperTV said:

Also, those Blake genes are perfect and the future generations should benefit from having them!

Fair point, his beauty should be preserved in future generations. 

Still if I was going to be trapped in a self sustaining shipwreck for 5 years. I'd rather have Monty with his computer skills than Bellamy's cheekbones. Besides piequinn35 is right, if I have Other Blake on the list I don't need Bellamy as well.

Edited by dippydee
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4 hours ago, madam magpie said:

This is the flak political leaders always get from populism: "We, the people, who have no skills or experience, can do better!" Someone like Jasper would lead this group into a black hole.

Leading means making incredibly difficult choices sometimes, but I'm so tired of this "Clarke gets more people killed than she saves." Clarke is the only one (save Bellamy) willing to step up, take charge, risk her life for the group, and get shit done. That's an incredibly valuable skill set and something that is needed to rebuild a society. No, she shouldn't go down with the ship. The goal is for humanity to survive and rebuild.

Jasper and Monty are drains on society, Jasper especially. They aren't challenging her in an effort to be leaders. They're complaining because they can't face or don't like her decisions, so they resort to upheaval and chaos. They don't want to lead themselves; they just want to undermine Clarke. If they'd like to be the ones who make the hard choices, they should challenge her authority for real. But they don't. Nobody does. Because none of the others really want to be the leader...because it's an incredibly hard and self-sacrificing role.

 
 
 

They're not insisting they can do better; they're refusing to follow the same authoritarian system they were forced to follow on the Ark. I seriously do not get the complaints every time someone so much as questions Clarke's decisions which have an impact on all the characters' lives. Clarke went against both Bellamy (who's also acting on authority from Kane) and Raven's wishes and decided to lie to everyone in camp about them all having an equal chance to live. Then she went behind the Arkadians' backs and wrote a list with only 100 names (encouraged by Raven to do so) which meant 400 people were spending their remaining days on earth building a shelter they wouldn't get access to. What was she planning on doing on the last day? Forcing those people out at gunpoint after lying to them for two months? It was a seriously fucked up decision on her behalf regardless of how pragmatic it was. This whole disaster could have been avoided if she'd just told the truth to begin with. The lottery is a stupid idea, but it's hard to argue it doesn't have its appeal when it managed to restore order and led to everyone being more disciplined and focused. Hopefully, they'll come up with something else in the meantime.

And Jasper did a pretty good job at leading the delinquents inside Mt. Weather with Monty's help in season two before he suffered from PTSD and crippling depression. I get that his behavior is seriously annoying a lot of people, but his advice that "if you think you have the best idea, you have to convince people, not lie to them" was on point. Literally every single person in the show is disagreeing with Clarke's approach to things, and I don't think it's a coincidence. 

Monty has played a vital role in saving his people in every season except the first one. Without him, Mt. Weather and A.L.I.E. would have never been defeated. Hell, he killed his mom for his friend's sake. He's made a bigger sacrifice than any other character, and the only reason they're even able to save 100 people is because Monty figured something out. Drain on society? He's one of the most proactive, intelligent and resourceful people they have on their side, and like previous seasons have shown, Monty is perfectly capable of stepping up when no one else will. It makes zero sense why he's less valuable than Clarke. The guy didn't even complain he wasn't on the list, he just disagreed with Clarke's methods in going about it, and it's ironic how people are holding it against him when this is a direct parallel to the season one situation, where people still support Clarke and Jake's decision. This season: Jaha -> Clarke, Abby ->Monty and Jake -> Jasper.

People go on about how hard it is for Clarke to be in charge, but no one forced her into that position. Clarke is incapable of relinquishing control, even when there have been other more experienced people to take charge e.g. "you may be the Chancellor, but I'm in charge" in season two and going behind Lexa's back in season three and breaking Grounder law by trying to assassinate Nia when she was an ambassador. This show has always been about teamwork, regardless of how the writers like to give Clarke credit at the end of every season. This season alone we've seen Kane, Abby, Murphy, Octavia, Jaha, Raven, Bellamy and yes, even Monty, take charge in each their own way, and they've all shown they're capable of great things when they're separated from the great Wanheda. If Clarke were to give up, the other characters wouldn't just stand around staring blankly into space. They're all working their asses off to fix this situation, not just Clarke. The only thing Clarke has been "forced" into doing is making the list, but since she's the one who lied about everyone's survival chances in the first place, I don't fault Raven for placing that burden on her. 

It's all subjective and we all have our opinions, but I do not see these great leadership qualities in Clarke that everyone's always going on about. She's good at making morally questionable decisions other characters might not be capable of and being pragmatic, but she's terrible at diplomacy, politics and actually interacting with people on even the most basic level. She's always pissing someone off because she doesn't know how to properly interact with anyone without relying on manipulation (e.g. she only gained Lexa's trust because she lied about Anya). Raven's scene with Luna was a great contrast to Clarke's scene with her last season. Whereas Clarke tried to rob Luna of her will by forcing the chip on her, Raven gave Luna a choice when she very well could have held her as a prisoner. And yes, it's not the exact same situation and it probably would not have worked last season, but by giving her the choice this season, Raven proved Nyko's words about them being good people to be true which convinced Luna to help them out. Sometimes not being an asshole is the better option. Clarke in that situation would have held her at gunpoint because "muh people" and would have butchered their chances at getting Luna to agree and then we'd be seeing a situation similar to Mt. Weather.

On another note, what's up with that guy who was mad Bellamy's on the list? Are the Arkadians now pretending they didn't vote Pike into leadership? 

Edited by shireenbamfatheon · Reason: a word and grammar
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18 minutes ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

On another note, what's up with that guy who was mad Bellamy's on the list?

It's possible the writers created an audience stand-in via writing that dude. From what I gather from many sources, majority of The 100 viewers don't seem to recognize Bellamy Blake as a male lead that have his own role and storyline on the show and him being the leader to his people and equal to Clarke in every way. I'm glad Jaha once again spelled out for the audience:

"Of course Clarke and Bellamy should be included. Strong leadership is essential for survival."

Just like the last episode Jaha, of all people, again, spelled out to the audience that:

"Leadership is a lonely pursuit, but you... you keep her centered". – "You got it backwards."

You could call it Jason Rothenberg, the head writer, speaking directly to the audience, as he talked at length how Bellamy and Clarke are better leaders together, not when they're apart.

 

40 minutes ago, dippydee said:

Still if I was going to be trapped in a self sustaining shipwreck for 5 years. I'd rather have Monty with his computer skills than Bellamy's cheekbones. Besides piequinn35 is right, if I have Other Blake on the list I don't need Bellamy as well.

I doubt Monty's crazy computer skillz will help with repopulation or basic survival, like creating food and shelter and resemblance of normal life. But then again, he's a chemist from Farm Station. He actually knows stuff about plants, fertilizers and growing food. Unlike Octagon that had no education or important skills. Well, murdering people is a skill but. Everyone on the Ark/in Arkadia knows how to do that one.

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58 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

I doubt Monty's crazy computer skillz will help with repopulation or basic survival, like creating food and shelter and resemblance of normal life.

But they will help survive 5years in a sealed space. I'm assuming there are all kinds or recycling/purifying and generators and whatnot that will probably be linked to their computer systems. Repopulation wont be an issue if they don't make it back to the surface.

58 minutes ago, CooperTV said:

You could call it Jason Rothenberg, the head writer, speaking directly to the audience, as he talked at length how Bellamy and Clarke are better leaders together, not when they're apart.

To be fair, so far this season they've been pretty terrible when they're together too, and I say that as someone who generally likes Clarke and who used to like Bellamy until he got Piked

Edited by dippydee
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2 hours ago, shireenbamfatheon said:

And Jasper did a pretty good job at leading the delinquents inside Mt. Weather with Monty's help in season two before he suffered from PTSD and crippling depression. I get that his behavior is seriously annoying a lot of people, but his advice that "if you think you have the best idea, you have to convince people, not lie to them" was on point.

Not really. In the end, Jasper's truth caused chaos and dissent. Clarke's lie was working fine, and Jaha's lie got people back in track.

Clarke isn't a perfect leader by any means. She can be impulsive, and she struggles to reconcile when to act emotionally and when not. But she is a leader. Jasper and Monty are not and have never been. As I recall, Jasper's "leadership" in Mount Weather was a lot of talking, little strategy, and ultimately a failure. Clarke ended up saving Skaikru by making a hard choice and having Monty take out the system keeping the Mount Weather inhabitants alive. Left to Jasper, Skaikru would have been dead inside the mountain and harvested for bone marrow.

Raven is also a leader, absolutely. But Raven isn't lounging in Arkadia, whining about how awful Clarke is, and undermining progress. She's out on a mission, risking her life to keep the group alive, working crazy hard, making hard choices, and getting shit done. A power struggle between Clarke and Raven would be fantastically interesting, but I don't see Raven challenging Clarke in that way because she knows about hard choices (like holding back meds). Plus, she and Clarke are on the same side. Their points of view and understanding about leadership/survival aren't that different, even if they offer different skills to the job.

I think Lexa was probably the best leader we've seen on this show thus far, and her leadership skills were greatly enhanced by her falling in love with Clarke. (That also got her killed. Was it worth it? Depends on who you ask.) I'm interested to see how Luna's story shakes out too. She has a lot of potential to rise in power and respect. Luna strikes me as someone who could become a beloved figurehead with Raven/Clarke as essential advisors. (Octavia can run the black ops division of Luna's intelligence agency. ;)

Edited by madam magpie
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1 hour ago, doram said:

I agree with everything you've said but I doubt Luna would be a good leader. She'd be an amazing figurehead but when it comes to decision-making, her idealism would lead them all to extinction. 

Alone, for sure it would. Luna is inspiring, idealistic, and (mostly) hopeful, but not always pragmatic in a real-world sense. She'd need Raven, Clarke, and Octavia to do the dirty work...which I think is OK. One of the best qualities of a good leader is knowing what you don't know or what isn't your strength, and finding skilled people to fill the holes. I think those four could be a political powerhouse, actually. Luna seems to be someone whose genuine compassion inspires people. She's also not a weakling and is willing to fight when clearly threatened. Raven/Clarke are much more pragmatic, though, and Octavia is willing to be ruthless when needed. Luna would balance out the ethics. They all need each other.

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I wanted someone to scream in outrage "you put yourself on the list - and you even used a different hand-writing to do it." Like, even from looking at the list, how hard was it to figure that out? It should even be pretty easy to call, going by who number 99 is, who put Clarke on the list. Doesn`t take a genius.

As for needing young fertile women, that is of course very true but you need a couple fertile man, too. I know man can father children much later in life than women can have them but the, um, production rate does go down with age for men. In that vein, Bellamy isn`t a worse choice than Octavia.

I was surprised Monty was not on it. There is really no room for a clever,tough, loyal guy like him? He helped them out in so many tight spots. Sheer nepotism would have had me putting him on the list. Seriously, the "core crew" of youngsters who have proved their worth so far would be on it for that reason. At least Raven was on it because hello, anything else would be insanity. Murphy and Emori weren`t even considered during the making of the list but their sheer survivordom and Emori`s knowledge and skills would put them on it for me.

Of course, I personally would have started out with thinking: 100 people is not enough diverse genetic material to repopulate. Sorry, it`s not. Within a few generations, you are toast. Also, they plan to stay in the ship for 5 years, yes? After a nuclear meltdown worse than the last one. I don`t care if their bodies have a higher radiation tolerance because of space, a thouroughly iradiated planet would be unsurvivable to even them for muuuuch longer than 5 years.

Jasper is so annoying these days, I wish it WAS black rain.

Edited by Aeryn13
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2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

Speaking of Clarke, it has been a while since she has shown any emotion.

tumblr_oljp7cHYDK1u959rso4_250.gif  tumblr_oljp7cHYDK1u959rso3_250.gif

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Season 4 episode 3 Four Horsemen

2 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I seem to be the only one who wasn't convinced by Bob Morley's breakdown acting. I actually thought it was pretty bad, not Monty-bad, but not good either, but then again the writing for him has been pretty bad for a while now too. 

LOL, he's the best actor on that show, no contest.

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3 hours ago, nosleepforme said:

I have not been as invested this season as in previous seasons, which is kind of strange, because I actually did like most of season three if you exclude the Pike/Lincoln storylines.

Me too. I wearied of the Lexa focus/Polis politics at the middle of last season, but towards the end they refocused on the core group/100 kids and I was more interested. This season so far though feels like a re-tread of previous problems and emotions. Everything so far feels a lot like filler or setup, and nothing truly surprising (save for Indra having a daughter?) has really happened. I hope they pick up the pace a bit soon.

I didn't care for Bob's big shout/cry (I always find those on-command wails when people find out bad news to be VERY unconvincing) but I liked the rest of his expressions/emotions/reactions in that scene. It's such a cheat/contrivance to keep Octavia alive and mostly unscathed after that fall, but I knew they'd never kill her, so that robbed a lot of the power from the scene too.

As far as best actors on the show, I think Idina Porter and Henry Ian Cusick are, but are mostly wasted sadly. I'd like to see them get meatier, more dimensional material to tackle. Richard Harmon is also probably easily the strongest actor of the kids. 

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On 2/23/2017 at 5:56 AM, Isazouzi said:

I enjoyed the prank of Jaha's being floated. That one was good.

Me too. I think that was the most I've liked Jasper since... I don't even know.

On 2/23/2017 at 3:41 PM, Fireball said:

The writers really need to stop teasing Jasper dying; either kill him off or stop with the teasing!

Also this. And I know which option I'd prefer...

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Good God, that episode was terrible. This season is so appallingly written. It's just so full of stupid contrivances and false moral quandaries. I thought last season was bad but this is even worse. Watching this was almost painful. Roan broke the truce for the dumbest reason ever, especially when he knows what's coming. I can't believe they wasted an entire episode with everyone running around an island chased by drones. The whole Clarke mess takes more words than I have energy for right now. 

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Um...what a stupid episode. It was really badly written. It didn't feel like anything progressed.

How nice that Raven calls Murphy a dick and he responds by helping her run from gunfire. Yeah, what a dick for saving your life. That's just so typical TV cliche writing, though. It made me frustrated more than anything. Also the fact that Murphy somehow can't atone for his sins and get full redemption like every other character. 

Also, poor Nyko. I actually liked the guy. But I did roll my eyes at them leaving Raven alone. What if some other danger got to her? You're going to just leave her unattended? Luckily, she can take care of herself, but still. And now she's having headaches? Yay, the return of physical pain for her. 

So...now Bellamy just gets captured off screen, as if he's some random redshirt, and then does nothing the entire episode, besides looking sad and scared? And Roan breaks the truce because.....he didn't get results? I mean, fair, but really bad writing to get to that plot.

Jasper makes some good points. He's still a colossal dick that needs to die with Jaha. His woe is me angst is boring me to tears. He's also annoying as hell. The whole list plot is dumb as well. Clarke's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. At the end of it all, she's still a kid who's had to grow up quite quickly in six months. Of course she's going to make mistakes and make bad choices; like anyone else in Arkadia wouldn't have made different lists that left people off of it. And she wasn't going to make the list until Raven told her that she had to. Clarke's made bad choices and she's no saint, that's for sure. But I'm rolling my eyes at some of the people getting mad at Clarke. Well, mostly Jasper. Like he could have done any better. Does anyone else want to step up and make a list? Maybe if everyone makes their own 100 list, they can compare and find the most common names. 

I liked Monty's approach to Clarke better. It didn't work, but Monty's a lot more likable for me. And he gave her a chance before he told everyone the truth. She didn't stop him because she was not just getting surrounded, but maybe part of her agreed with him. 

God, Jaha, shut up. You kind of helped this week, but shut up. I guess it helps that he's been through these decisions plenty of times before, so he's an expert at the hard decisions while keeping the people calm.

Well, Octavia survived, which is good. Again, though, bad writing on how it was done. I guess it helps that Octavia got stabbed more in the side. But now Bellamy thinks she's dead; I will say, one the better acted moments on this show, even a tad (a lot) cheesy and overdramatic. I enjoyed the moment, ok?

So basically, a stupid episode only saved by a couple of moments. 

Edited by Lady Calypso
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