S04.E03: XXXI

[DarkRaichu]

7 minutes ago, Ravenya003 said:

There was a fantastic gif set on Tumblr that had Rogers/Jack looking at each other while the keelhaul was going on, with a quote from back in season three: when the two of them were in the carriage together (directly prior to Jack's rescue) Jack was going on about how he had read Rogers' book and so could work Rogers out. It was all very polite and civilised, but Rogers replied that he only wrote the parts of himself that he wanted people to know about. That was beautifully (though silently) referenced here, as you could TELL that Jack was looking at Rogers and thinking: "who the fuck is this guy?"

Excellent point.  Last year I thought that was just to emphasize how brutal Rodger's fighting style really was (when he tried to stop Jack from running away).  But it was a fitting description of him this episode.

Speaking of fighting style, during the fight Rodgers disabled Teach's right arm by cutting under his armpit.  That was sneaky but effective.  Afterward Teach had to swing his sword with both hands, reducing his options as far as how and where to attack.  At the end Teach's sword was knocked out of his right hand quite easily.

[Tom Rider]

Choosing sides in this series isn't supposed to be cut and dry.  I think that's the point the writers are trying to get across.  Good people occasionally do bad things, and vice versa.  Motivations and self-interest seem to drive this dichotomy.  Silver explains this point of view when he says he doesn't need to trust Flint, as they share the same self-interest.  Also, Rackham and Max have also expressed this idea on occasion throughout the series.  (On a side note, this theme is prevalent throughout Game of Thrones as well, both the idea of common self-interest and the whole good/bad in everybody).  For me, this one of the themes that makes this show so appealing.  If we look at everything in absolute terms, then civilization beats lawlessness every time.  Unfortunately, nothing is absolute.

As far as the sustainability of Nassau and the Pirate Republic Flint envisions should the pirates prevail; Flint, Miranda and Thomas knew full well from the beginning that continued piracy could never make it work.  They understood that it would take farmers, blacksmiths, carpenters, etc., to sustain them and make them a viable "nation" unto themselves.  Even Woodes Rogers understands this, which is why he offered full pardons to anyone who would give up piracy.  So even if England (and Spain) would allow them to keep the island, essentially create an independent colony (or nation), they would still have to abandon piracy or they would invite their own destruction by the nations whose ships they would have to attack.

[Kathemy]

I love Black Sails but this was the most contrived stuff ever on the show. All hail the Rodgers ex Machina!!!

Jack surrendering to Rodgers when he is in command of a gunship capable of blowing his ship to dust? Agreeing to be taken prisoner when he knows he'll hang? The entire idea of them entering the ship without first using their superior position and blow the crap out of her ensuring very few survivors on or below deck? Utter tripe.

Yeah, I know dramatic license. I'm a huge science fiction fan. However, this ranks with the worst storyline crutches on television the last year.

[FlowerofCarnage]

Well, Billy did say that the treasure was supposed to be the seed money for their new colony/nation. I guess it is safe to assume that the pirates do have a plan in place to sustain the island that doesn't involve piracy.

[Tom Rider]

1 hour ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

Well, Billy did say that the treasure was supposed to be the seed money for their new colony/nation. I guess it is safe to assume that the pirates do have a plan in place to sustain the island that doesn't involve piracy.

I agree that's probably their plan.  I was more responding to what some earlier posters were saying about the idea of a pirate nation.  

I think at the end of the day, Flint does want to live a "normal" life, he just wants no part of England or anything she stands for.  After what happened to him and Miranda (and of course the death of Thomas) he feels that England represents everything that is wrong with the world.  He wants a place he can live free of the crown's dominance and abuses.  He despises the way people are oppressed, enslaved, used and discarded.  He wants a home where people can govern themselves and live with dignity.  I'm not sure every pirate in his "army" feels the same way, but it seems that most of the key players do.

[Ravenya003]

2 hours ago, FlowerofCarnage said:

Well, Billy did say that the treasure was supposed to be the seed money for their new colony/nation. I guess it is safe to assume that the pirates do have a plan in place to sustain the island that doesn't involve piracy.

But then what did the pirates do once the gold was in their possession? They completely squandered it. There was that running gag about the pirate who kept leaving his bag of gold behind whenever he went to the loo, and the fact that Nassau had more or less ground to a halt after everyone became rich. 

I think that's one of the smartest bits of the show: we're conditioned to side with the pirates, yet their lifestyle is unsustainable and most of the time they're their own worst enemy. They can't even claim a moral victory since most of them are murderers and thieves. Flint is fuelled totally by vengeance, and the likes of Billy and Max - who are genuinely just trying to keep everyone alive and to stop the circle of violence - become villains in the narrative that's being shaped around all these events. 

We already know that they're not going to bring down the British Empire - the best we can hope for is that somehow the writers will find a way to ensure that their fight at least has some impact on history. Much like the Rogue One squadron, they'll inspire others to fight against empirical greed (like the slave trade).

3 hours ago, Tom Rider said:

Silver explains this point of view when he says he doesn't need to trust Flint, as they share the same self-interest.  Also, Rackham and Max have also expressed this idea on occasion throughout the series.  (On a side note, this theme is prevalent throughout Game of Thrones as well, both the idea of common self-interest and the whole good/bad in everybody).  For me, this one of the themes that makes this show so appealing.  If we look at everything in absolute terms, then civilization beats lawlessness every time.  Unfortunately, nothing is absolute.

And this very theme continues into Stevenson's "Treasure Island", where Silver is all about self-interest (getting his hands on the treasure) before the British do.

[tennisgurl]

The Pirate rebellion has always kind of reminded me of the slave army in Starz's other great action show, Spartacus. Much like this show, its  all lead to a place where the main characters are fighting a gigantic oppressive empire (the Roman Empire, or the British Empire) that has wronged the main character, and taken away the people he loved, and his army is mostly made up of disenfranchised people who have found themselves used and abused by this empire (including the former slaves Flint ally's with) and who desire for freedom from oppression. Both shows show characters on both sides to be sympathetic, while others who are just assholes. It also has a kind of order/vs chaos theme, and, like the pirates, the slave army was also frequently is own worst enemy, with lots of infighting, lack of long term goals, and lots of people who didn't really care about freedom, and just want to murder rape and pillage, as opposed to the main characters, who are more interested in freedom or revenge. Both shows also have the questions of "so, if we win, what happens?" where you wonder how the former slaves can run the Roman Empire, or the broken empire or whatever, nor do I see a fully pirate society existing as its own colony/nation totally independent of all laws and nations.  And, like in Spartacus, history has also told us that the Roman Empire wont be brought down by the slave army, and the British Empire wont be brought down by slaves and pirates. We can only hope something good can come of this, and their inevitable defeats can go on to inspire others. Its not exactly the same, but its got a lot of interesting similarities.

Edited February 15, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Slovenly Muse]

I think this show quite effectively embraces the simple truth that, apart from a few outliers, there ARE no such things as good guys and bad guys. Just individual complex persons, with their own sets of goals, personalities, foibles, traumas, and dreams, each one seeking happiness and prosperity through whatever channel they think will be most successful. Some do this by violently attacking and robbing others in order to support a lifestyle that keeps them free from civilization's rules, and others attempt to enforce BAD laws poorly, seeking to crush the outlaw pirates as much out of pride as a sense of lawfulness (see Berringer's comment about the uselessness of power if others can't see you have it). No individual character seems committed to their "side" as a CONCEPT (i.e., fighting for "piracy" or fighting for "British rule"), instead each character uses the situation to advance their own agendas, be it revenge, safety, advancement, etc. Remember how many pirates were seriously swayed by the temptation of a "pardon?" Because piracy isn't their GOAL, for many it's their only means of survival, and they'd give it up in a heartbeat if they didn't think they'd hang for it. By NOT taking sides, by just sitting back and watching these individuals play their hands as best they can, we are able to simultaneously root for and against EVERYONE. We can feel the pathos of Flint when he comes closer to avenging Thomas' death, and the determination of Rogers to prove himself to his superiors and win acclaim, and the satisfaction of Eleanor to be pulling the strings in Nassau and punishing Vane for hurting her. I dislike Eleanor as a character, but I admire her as a strategist. Madi, Silver, Max, Ann, Jack, Berringer... they are all on paths of self-interest. Although the show is framed as a struggle between pirates and the Royal Navy, the truth is that nearly all the conflicts are personal, not ideological or political. The characters are motivated by their relationships to those around them, loyalty, pain.. simple, personal things. When you don't take sides, the story becomes considerably more interesting.

[ganesh]

I don't know I'd say the slave army on Spartacus beat themselves. They had a ton of wins and just ran out of numbers mostly. If anything, they underestimated the slaves who would join them. I mean, Spartacus basically had beaten the Roman army leader.

As far as the idiot pirates who lost their gold, etc., they'd be idiots regardless. I could buy that Flint and all the higher ups would be like, ok, let's get to work if they won. Flint clearly sees the larger context in this episode and said as much to Madi. 

From the start of the show, the pirates discussed shares, Vane and Jack were negotiating with Flint, etc. 

Now, if they won, I don't think the empire would be like, "welp we lost. good show mates." They'd be at constant war at least defensively in Nassau, and probably would suffer blockades. 

I think both shows are more that they just don't have the numbers. 

[Tom Rider]

1 hour ago, Ravenya003 said:

But then what did the pirates do once the gold was in their possession? They completely squandered it. There was that running gag about the pirate who kept leaving his bag of gold behind whenever he went to the loo, and the fact that Nassau had more or less ground to a halt after everyone became rich. 

I think that's one of the smartest bits of the show: we're conditioned to side with the pirates, yet their lifestyle is unsustainable and most of the time they're their own worst enemy. They can't even claim a moral victory since most of them are murderers and thieves. Flint is fuelled totally by vengeance, and the likes of Billy and Max - who are genuinely just trying to keep everyone alive and to stop the circle of violence - become villains in the narrative that's being shaped around all these events. 

We already know that they're not going to bring down the British Empire - the best we can hope for is that somehow the writers will find a way to ensure that their fight at least has some impact on history. Much like the Rogue One squadron, they'll inspire others to fight against empirical greed (like the slave trade).

And this very theme continues into Stevenson's "Treasure Island", where Silver is all about self-interest (getting his hands on the treasure) before the British do.

The scene with the pirate who lost his gold was one of the funniest scenes in the series!  Especially when he reminds Featherstone that he will need a new bag to carry the gold in!  

Sure, I love to side with the pirates because the writers not only give them the larger share of the moral high ground, but there is also a catharsis in watching them so effectively "stick it to the man."  Even the most horrible acts of the main cast are given some moral justification by the fact that had it not been for England's abuses, most of them would never have committed these crimes in the first place.  Of course, there are some character's who are just bad guys - Captain Ned Low from Season 1 is a prime example.

Spoiler

We'll have to see how the writers end this.  I haven't seen Rogue One yet, so I can't comment on that comparison.  They could end things with a "fight the good fight" message, or knowing the true history of Nassau and Woodes Rogers' actual role there, that this whole fight was an exercise in futility.

[tennisgurl]

2 hours ago, ganesh said:

I don't know I'd say the slave army on Spartacus beat themselves. They had a ton of wins and just ran out of numbers mostly. If anything, they underestimated the slaves who would join them. I mean, Spartacus basically had beaten the Roman army leader.

I totally agree about how they ended up being defeated. The whole final episode was basically all about how Spartacus and company were probably better fighters and even strategists, but they got overwhelmed by sheer numbers. I think if they had more people, its possible that they could have dealt with their issues and could have won, but they did definitely have problems with infighting and different factions breaking off, then coming together, especially in the last season, which would have probably been a big detriment to victory even if they did have the numbers. I can see something like that happening here too. As good as Team Pirate is, they just cant beat the size and wealth of the British Empire, AND, unlike the British, they don't really have a specific, ironclad structure to fall back on, which leads to trouble. Sure, they have leaders, but not like the British do. They don't have a whole system going back forever that hasn't changed in centuries. Plus, again, we know how things happen, more or less, considering both history and Treasure Island. We don't know the details or the fates of every character, but we do have an idea of where some of them end up, and its not in an independent Pirate Land.

[pastafarian]

Great episode.  I do question the why Jack surrendered so easily, also I highly doubt a ship's captain outside of a Star Trek episode would ever leave the ship on a raid in RL.  Once the redcoats came streaming out of the hold, the raiders could have easily jumped ship and allowed BB's ship to blow the crap out of it.   There also seems to be far too many redcoats hiding on the captured ship, more than could fit?  I wonder how a real crew would react knowing that they were to be sacrificed for the trap?  In the end, they kill 'Mario Batali' and why not. :D  Then I tell myself it's just a TV show and I should really just relax.

 

I think the Berringer character could/should have been given a little more depth and back story before doing him in, but it's back to the restaurant for him (I know it's not really Mario, but they do look alike)

[taanja]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:21 AM, ulkis said:

Yikes. I didn't like Teach but that was rough.

Awesome entrance by Billy.

Amazeballs!

All I can say is that was cool. and ugly. and brutal. You go Black Sails! I love this show.

I am doing a quick fly-by post-- I will try to come back later and actually comment.

[DarkRaichu]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I totally agree about how they ended up being defeated. The whole final episode was basically all about how Spartacus and company were probably better fighters and even strategists, but they got overwhelmed by sheer numbers. I think if they had more people, its possible that they could have dealt with their issues and could have won, but they did definitely have problems with infighting and different factions breaking off, then coming together, especially in the last season, which would have probably been a big detriment to victory even if they did have the numbers. I can see something like that happening here too. As good as Team Pirate is, they just cant beat the size and wealth of the British Empire, AND, unlike the British, they don't really have a specific, ironclad structure to fall back on, which leads to trouble. Sure, they have leaders, but not like the British do. They don't have a whole system going back forever that hasn't changed in centuries. Plus, again, we know how things happen, more or less, considering both history and Treasure Island. We don't know the details or the fates of every character, but we do have an idea of where some of them end up, and its not in an independent Pirate Land.

It is not just the British they have to worry about.  Say they successfully repel and make peace with the British,  what would the Spain, French, and Dutch powers in that area do when they see a little independent port that is not affiliated with any of the major power in Europe???

[henripootel]

On 2/14/2017 at 6:21 PM, Kathemy said:

Jack surrendering to Rodgers when he is in command of a gunship capable of blowing his ship to dust? Agreeing to be taken prisoner when he knows he'll hang? The entire idea of them entering the ship without first using their superior position and blow the crap out of her ensuring very few survivors on or below deck? Utter tripe.

Ding ding ding.  There was (as far as I know) no reason for them to discontinue blowing the crap out of Rogers' ship.  So Rogers' plan was to let them do this to their heart's content then hope to surprise whomever boarded the ship?  And rather than opening fire again and very possibly killing Teach and Anne (although jumping overboard was an option for them), he surrendered the ship, absolutely condemning Teach and Anne.  

Also can't believe Teach would allow himself to be taken alive, unless hopelessly, grievously injured.  He knows what's coming - better to die fighting.  

[WatchrTina]

On 2/14/2017 at 9:17 AM, attica said:

To be fair, he was only smiling because his lips had by then been ripped off.

Ew.  Yeah. That's what I thought too.  And STARZ confirmed it.  See the behind-the-scenes video they tweeted that I'm going to attempt to link to below.

https://twitter.com/BlkSails_STARZ/status/832001033836515330

[raven]

I was also confused about Jack's white flag.  I was thinking there was some part of his and Teach's plan that I missed but I guess not.   I think Teach's character was pretty much wasted but at least he got to go out looking pretty tough.

WRT to Rogers, I think the time jump hurt the characterization a bit - he's always been able to hold his own (he did against Vane for a little while yet was saved by the soldiers) but this jump to brutality seems a bit OOC for what he was supposed to be - like dumping the wife to marry Eleanor.  I don't really care for Rogers but there should have been a bit more time on why these changes happened - he got desperate and the government wouldn't support him; why is he still obsessing over Nassau if he has to finance it?  Why can't he go back to England; he doesn't want to quit what he started?  It just seems odd.

I liked Flint's reaction to the Madi/Silver reunion - he looked pleased yet wistful.  

Points to Eleanor for taking her lady in waiting and Max to the fort when she sees the shit hitting the fan.

[Neurochick]

There's been a lot of talk about a pirate society and why it wouldn't work, that the British were fighting for civilization.  I think that was partially true.  

From what I have read, the British class system was fucked up because people actually believed its existence was God given.  That the classes had to be separate because it was what God wanted.  I think the British soldiers were fighting the pirates because they felt them inferior to them; typical patronizing bullshit.

[Jul 68]

On 02/15/2017 at 9:08 AM, taanja said:

Amazeballs!

All I can say is that was cool. and ugly. and brutal. You go Black Sails! I love this show.

I am doing a quick fly-by post-- I will try to come back later and actually comment.

I don't understand how this show can put out absolutely fantastic episodes like this and continue to be ignored by the Emmy committee.