S12.E11: Regarding Dean

[Wynne88]

One other terrible thing about alzheimer's disease (for me, anyway) is how my memories of things I shared with my Mom were almost devalued once I could no longer share them with her.  That seems weird, since I haven't felt that way about my memories with people who have actually died, but having her sitting right there and not be able to remember them made it almost like they hadn't happened.  I think for Sam is would be even worse since their lives are so tied up together, and they don't have other people with whom they share much history.  Maybe I'm weird though.

[ahrtee]

I have very mixed feelings about this ep, in large part because of my own experience with dementia (which is still a little too close.)  I think they did a good job with what they had: with time constraints and not wanting to go too depressing, but I think it fell a little flat because of that--it was too rushed, kind of paint-by-numbers.  

Having said that, it *did* hit most of the numbers (and got them mostly right, IMO).  It hit the confusion, the denial, the fear (from both of them).  I think that was foreshortened because of time, and that took some of the power away, but I think any other way would have been way too long and depressing.  It hit the way Dean got lighter, somehow, the more he forgot, and started enjoying himself, and avoided the later, sadder inevitable end.  I do think that they jumped too quickly from the terrified-Dean-in-the-mirror scene* to being completely happy, without showing more of a progression or the back-and-forth that happens, just because they needed to get everything wrapped up neatly in 41 minutes.  

Sam, too, went very quickly from annoyed to panicked, and immediately jumped to the "hexed" conclusion once he ruled out hung over.  Yellow Fever went too much in the other direction--Sam being unconcerned way too long, even with massive evidence in front of him; this Sam went immediately into panic mode without going through the logical steps first.  You can put that into the current context:  after so many deaths and near-deaths, Sam is on the edge when any threat arises and goes automatically to Defcon 1; or you can look at it as a writer's shortcut, letting the viewers fill in the blanks.  I'd prefer a little more build up, but can understand both.

*The main part I truly *loved* was Dean looking at himself in the bathroom mirror and trying to remind himself who he is.  To me, that was the single most painful and powerful moment in the whole show, and I'm sorry that they went from that straight to the lighthearted side, showing Dean perfectly happy.  I would have preferred moments of clarity/fear in between all the pleasure he seemed to be taking out of the job.  It would have made it more poignant.  Just had to be his expressions/eyes, no dialogue, and I know Jensen could have pulled it off beautifully.  

I would have been happy if they'd shortened the witches' scenes and paid more attention to the boys.  The musical tag at the end seemed to me also like they'd run short and needed some filler, and I'd rather have spent more of that time on watching the boys freak out, with maybe just  a final view of laughing Dean on the bull (which, yeah!) as a fadeout shot.  

 

22 minutes ago, auntvi said:

31 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I also liked that apparently, Dean's default personality is really peppy and enthusiastic.

One thing I noticed in watching my mom and all the others in the dementia facility she was in (and talking to many of the family members of other "residents" as well)...

It didn't seem to me that dementia got a person back to their default personality.  What it does, IMO, is gradually strip away all the filters they've developed over the years--politeness or distance or all learned behaviors...they are living in the moment, and reacting absolutely without filters,   So...this Dean can gag over autopsy leftovers (while the old Dean had no problem with them); this one can be delighted at learning about monsters because he doesn't have all the memories and baggage that go along with it.  But IRL, the sweetest old lady in the world can take a swing at a caregiver or throw her dinner across the room, just because she's frustrated and doesn't have the words to express it.  That's not her underlying personality coming out.  It's reacting to the moment without filters.  It would have been interesting to see Jensen play that, as well.  

[catrox14]

 I couldn't help but think of Crowley and if he would be horribly jealous of Rowena and Dean's mini-connection in the episode.

[bearcatfan]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

It didn't seem to me that dementia got a person back to their default personality.  What it does, IMO, is gradually strip away all the filters they've developed over the years--politeness or distance or all learned behaviors...they are living in the moment, and reacting absolutely without filters,   So...this Dean can gag over autopsy leftovers (while the old Dean had no problem with them); this one can be delighted at learning about monsters because he doesn't have all the memories and baggage that go along with it.  But IRL, the sweetest old lady in the world can take a swing at a caregiver or throw her dinner across the room, just because she's frustrated and doesn't have the words to express it.  That's not her underlying personality coming out.  It's reacting to the moment without filters.

I agree. My FIL has dementia and he has no filters at all. He loves to go out to eat but we are limited on where we will take him because you never know what will come out of his mouth. Considering that he is in his 80s, a lot of learned filters are gone, such as what it is ok to say. He will use the n word without hesitation because when he was in his 20s, that is what was commonly used, even though he's hasn't used that term in 50 years. Cusses a lot too and my husband said he never heard him cuss when he was a kid, even when very angry.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I have very mixed feelings about this ep, in large part because of my own experience with dementia (which is still a little too close.)  I think they did a good job with what they had: with time constraints and not wanting to go too depressing, but I think it fell a little flat because of that--it was too rushed, kind of paint-by-numbers.  

Having said that, it *did* hit most of the numbers (and got them mostly right, IMO).  It hit the confusion, the denial, the fear (from both of them).  I think that was foreshortened because of time, and that took some of the power away, but I think any other way would have been way too long and depressing.  It hit the way Dean got lighter, somehow, the more he forgot, and started enjoying himself, and avoided the later, sadder inevitable end.  I do think that they jumped too quickly from the terrified-Dean-in-the-mirror scene* to being completely happy, without showing more of a progression or the back-and-forth that happens, just because they needed to get everything wrapped up neatly in 41 minutes.  

Sam, too, went very quickly from annoyed to panicked, and immediately jumped to the "hexed" conclusion once he ruled out hung over.  Yellow Fever went too much in the other direction--Sam being unconcerned way too long, even with massive evidence in front of him; this Sam went immediately into panic mode without going through the logical steps first.  You can put that into the current context:  after so many deaths and near-deaths, Sam is on the edge when any threat arises and goes automatically to Defcon 1; or you can look at it as a writer's shortcut, letting the viewers fill in the blanks.  I'd prefer a little more build up, but can understand both.

*The main part I truly *loved* was Dean looking at himself in the bathroom mirror and trying to remind himself who he is.  To me, that was the single most painful and powerful moment in the whole show, and I'm sorry that they went from that straight to the lighthearted side, showing Dean perfectly happy.  I would have preferred moments of clarity/fear in between all the pleasure he seemed to be taking out of the job.  It would have made it more poignant.  Just had to be his expressions/eyes, no dialogue, and I know Jensen could have pulled it off beautifully.  

I would have been happy if they'd shortened the witches' scenes and paid more attention to the boys.  The musical tag at the end seemed to me also like they'd run short and needed some filler, and I'd rather have spent more of that time on watching the boys freak out, with maybe just  a final view of laughing Dean on the bull (which, yeah!) as a fadeout shot.  

 

One thing I noticed in watching my mom and all the others in the dementia facility she was in (and talking to many of the family members of other "residents" as well)...

It didn't seem to me that dementia got a person back to their default personality.  What it does, IMO, is gradually strip away all the filters they've developed over the years--politeness or distance or all learned behaviors...they are living in the moment, and reacting absolutely without filters,   So...this Dean can gag over autopsy leftovers (while the old Dean had no problem with them); this one can be delighted at learning about monsters because he doesn't have all the memories and baggage that go along with it.  But IRL, the sweetest old lady in the world can take a swing at a caregiver or throw her dinner across the room, just because she's frustrated and doesn't have the words to express it.  That's not her underlying personality coming out.  It's reacting to the moment without filters.  It would have been interesting to see Jensen play that, as well.  

I agree with this completely.  My mom, would do exactly this with me.  She would be so kind and loving and 2 hours later she would throw something at me. My mom never swore a day in her life except for the occasional 'shitass' but she never dropped an f-bomb or said "God dammit" EVER. But once the dementia become more pronounced she was saying "god dammit" all the time. Totally agree that the filters are removed.

I think with Dean, maybe his filters were also removed to an extent like you said...and he was finding happy things. 

I too, wish they had spent more time on what was happening with Dean. I feel like there could have been a lot more done with Dean's memories and that maybe he would remember Mary burning alive and running out with Sam but then look at Sam and not remember that was who he saved as a little boy. 

[ahrtee]

29 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

I agree. My FIL has dementia and he has no filters at all. He loves to go out to eat but we are limited on where we will take him because you never know what will come out of his mouth. Considering that he is in his 80s, a lot of learned filters are gone, such as what it is ok to say. He will use the n word without hesitation because when he was in his 20s, that is what was commonly used, even though he's hasn't used that term in 50 years. Cusses a lot too and my husband said he never heard him cuss when he was a kid, even when very angry.

My sister took my mom out shopping and bought some moderately priced shoes ($125).  Mom was thrilled and was showing them off to everyone at her dinner table till my sister accidentally mentioned how much they cost.  My mom immediately burst into tears because she had thought they only cost $25.  So...she was upset, my dad was embarrassed, and my sister was guilt-ridden for mentioning it.  

 

28 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I agree with this completely.  My mom, would do exactly this with me.  She would be so kind and loving and 2 hours later she would throw something at me. My mom never swore a day in her life except for the occasional 'shitass' but she never dropped an f-bomb or said "God dammit" EVER. But once the dementia become more pronounced she was saying "god dammit" all the time. Totally agree that the filters are removed.

 

My mom went through a week (just one week, luckily!) when she got paranoid and accused me of conspiring with the facility to keep her locked up.  She kept asking me "why did you do it?" but never explained what it was I had supposedly done.  Apparently all those are very common phases of dementia.  Doesn't make 'em any less painful, though, when someone you love has become so different.

Edited February 11, 2017 by ahrtee
final thought.

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

My mom went through a week (just one week, luckily!) when she got paranoid and accused me of conspiring with the facility to keep her locked up.  She kept asking me "why did you do it?" but never explained what it was I had supposedly done.  Apparently all that are very common phases of dementia.  Doesn't make 'em any less painful, though, when someone you love has become so different.

I feel you there. I was living with my mom and caring for her and she started becoming convinced my brother was trying to take her house and nothing I could say would convince her otherwise. It was simply awful. I don't wish it on my worst enemy. :( 

As to Dean, I'm wondering if this is really the last we'll see of his memory issues. Like I know it was a spell, but I really do wonder if it's going to be something more down the road

[Goldmoon]

I really love the idea of a Tabula Rasa episode. Both Buffy and Angel did them well, so why not steal from the best?  As much as I am a fan of JA's acting, and I have always had him at the top of the talent list on this show, I didn't think we saw anything NEW.  I still have to do a rewatch, but looking in the mirror and being scared was too similar to him looking in the mirror for demon eyes a few seasons ago.  I wonder what kind of script we could have that would have him enacting different personality traits for 45 minutes?

[SueB]

While I loved the connection between Dean and Rowena, I am still firmly sailing the Crackship SS Samwena.   There's a mutual respect and animosity there plus the height different sight gag that appeals to my inner 12 year old. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by SueB

[rue721]

9 hours ago, ahrtee said:

It didn't seem to me that dementia got a person back to their default personality.  What it does, IMO, is gradually strip away all the filters they've developed over the years--politeness or distance or all learned behaviors...they are living in the moment, and reacting absolutely without filters

What's the difference between having no filters and being stripped down to your basic personality, though? Not disagreeing, just trying to understand.

[mertensia]

5 hours ago, SueB said:

While I loved the connection between Dean and Rowena, I am still firmly sailing the Crackship SS Samwena.   There's a mutual respect and animosity there plus the height different sight gag that appeals to my inner 12 year old. 

You just know Dean would love Rowena's cheating at poker and invite her to Vegas for their annual week in Vegas. 

[ahrtee]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

You just know Dean would love Rowena's cheating at poker and invite her to Vegas for their annual week in Vegas. 

I'm not so sure Dean would like cheating.  I get the feeling he gets more pleasure from winning fair and square.  He can pretend to be a worse player than he really is in order to hustle a bet, but he's not going to cheat at the game itself.  JMO.

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not so sure Dean would like cheating.  I get the feeling he gets more pleasure from winning fair and square.  He can pretend to be a worse player than he really is in order to hustle a bet, but he's not going to cheat at the game itself.  JMO.

Interesting.  I had never really put much thought into this before.  But, Sam and Dean do lie all the time.  And, they fraudulently get credit cards which is stealing. In my book, lying, cheating, and stealing all pretty much go hand in hand.  And, lest we think they only steal from big faceless corporations and (besides to each other) only tell "white" lies about their jobs or positions to get information to hunt, that's not exactly true. They also steal cars whenever they need one, and I can think of two occasions off the top of my head where Dean has lied to women to get them to have sex with him (Provenance and Fallen Idols).  So, I don't know that he would be above cheating in poker.

[SueB]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not so sure Dean would like cheating.  I get the feeling he gets more pleasure from winning fair and square.  He can pretend to be a worse player than he really is in order to hustle a bet, but he's not going to cheat at the game itself.  JMO.

I was thinking that... but then again, he wanted to take Sammy to Los Vegas with his psychic powers. And DID play scratch-offs with a lucky rabbits foot (which was magic).

So.. IDK... I think it depends on if he thinks the guys she's playing with are 'innocents' or 'douches'.  If 'douches', he'd probably chuckle.  At least she's not killing people. 

 

4 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Interesting.  I had never really put much thought into this before.  But, Sam and Dean do lie all the time.  And, they fraudulently get credit cards which is stealing. In my book, lying, cheating, and stealing all pretty much go hand in hand.  And, lest we think they only steal from big faceless corporations and (besides to each other) only tell "white" lies about their jobs or positions to get information to hunt, that's not exactly true. They also steal cars whenever they need one, and I can think of two occasions off the top of my head where Dean has lied to women to get them to have sex with him (Provenance and Fallen Idols).  So, I don't know that he would be above cheating in poker.

ETA: Or what Katy M said, as I was typing, but with a few caveats: 

- As far as I can tell, they still hustle for pool, credit card scam, and steal cars when necessary. Although.... I'm pretty sure he paid for the waffles with the money the woman gave him because she thought he was panhandling, and stole dead-accountant's cigars (twice).  In fact Jensen ad-libs pocketing shit ALL the time, now that I think of it.  But I do think he would rather win at cards than use magic.  But ... Dean would also appreciate 'desperate times'.  Rowena is not hexing people for hotel rooms, she's getting money at back-room card games.  That's practically legit for Rowena.

- Now I put the 'false identity to have sex' in a different category than lying for cash.  In his younger years Dean clearly 'ditched chicks' (one of his sins he listed that he hoped saving people made up for ... back in season 4 or 5), I think he's left that issue behind.  He obvious is still not who he says he is, but the 'passing through town' or 'letting off some steam' approach is his MO.

Edited February 12, 2017 by SueB

[ahrtee]

38 minutes ago, SueB said:

As far as I can tell, they still hustle for pool, credit card scam, and steal cars when necessary. Although.... I'm pretty sure he paid for the waffles with the money the woman gave him because she thought he was panhandling, and stole dead-accountant's cigars (twice).  In fact Jensen ad-libs pocketing shit ALL the time, now that I think of it.  But I do think he would rather win at cards than use magic.  But ... Dean would also appreciate 'desperate times'.  Rowena is not hexing people for hotel rooms, she's getting money at back-room card games.  That's practically legit for Rowena.

- Now I put the 'false identity to have sex' in a different category than lying for cash.  In his younger years Dean clearly 'ditched chicks' (one of his sins he listed that he hoped saving people made up for ... back in season 4 or 5), I think he's left that issue behind.  He obvious is still not who he says he is, but the 'passing through town' or 'letting off some steam' approach is his MO.

IDK.  I may be warped, but I think, in the Winchester worldview, lying and stealing (ie, credit card scams, cars, and hustling pool) are OK (as long as no one gets hurt) because they're necessities (they don't get paid directly, so that's what they consider their income/job benefits.  I just get the feeling that poker and pool are skills that Dean takes pride in, and wouldn't want to win by cheating.  JMO.   

I think, as you said, he might be OK with Rowena cheating because she was desperate, but...changing cards to a winning hand by witchcraft?  Pretty stupid (and dangerous.)  Because she may only have to beat one hand, but how much to do you want to bet that there was at least one other player there with an ace or two in his  hand that would say, "whoa, wait a minute.  How did you come up with 4 aces when I have one here?"  

[catrox14]

8 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I'm not so sure Dean would like cheating.  I get the feeling he gets more pleasure from winning fair and square.  He can pretend to be a worse player than he really is in order to hustle a bet, but he's not going to cheat at the game itself.  JMO.

 

I don't think he would seek out a way to use magic to hustle pool because that is a point of pride with Dean. He worked for that money. If someone caught on to t his scheme so be it. He'll pay those  consequences by either giving  the money back, getting decked in a bar brawl or making a run for it with his winnings that he felt he earned. It's the game for Dean. And occasionally to take some douchey dude down a peg. IMO he'd be wholly unsatisfied with winning by magic.

Sams psychic powers were not magic to or a result of a spell so to me Dean saw it as just using a  tool that the universe put in their lap. Not one he actively sought to use. Same with the rabbits foot. It was already cursed so why not use it whilst he can?

Dean didnt  seek out a witch or magic spell to win Bobby's years back IIRC. He went against Patrick without magic and he lost.

IMO, Dean couldn't give a rats ass about Rowena’s gambling habits because he doesn't care about  nor particularly like Rowena.  If she was caught cheating and was killed for it, I doubt he would bat an eye other than knowing they are now without an occasional ally. The boys owe her a favor now but they are not actually friends. They tolerate each other's existence and use wch other when needed. To me, Dean would care if her using magic  got someone hurt and they had to clean up her mess.

Edited February 12, 2017 by catrox14

[bearcatfan]

3 hours ago, ahrtee said:

I think, as you said, he might be OK with Rowena cheating because she was desperate, but...changing cards to a winning hand by witchcraft?  Pretty stupid (and dangerous.)  Because she may only have to beat one hand, but how much to do you want to bet that there was at least one other player there with an ace or two in his  hand that would say, "whoa, wait a minute.  How did you come up with 4 aces when I have one here?"  

Maybe whatever magic she used to change the cards also made the players forget what their cards were? I wondered the same thing but then figured that she probably took that into consideration and planned accordingly.

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

Maybe whatever magic she used to change the cards also made the players forget what their cards were? I wondered the same thing but then figured that she probably took that into consideration and planned accordingly.

Multiple decks. In a high-stakes backroom game, they are probably playing with 5 decks at a time.  So unless someone has been counting Ace's, they won't know. Plus I noticed she played with all men.  Kept them distracted with her little 'I'm a silly beginner' routine. 

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Multiple decks. In a high-stakes backroom game, they are probably playing with 5 decks at a time.  So unless someone has been counting Ace's, they won't know. Plus I noticed she played with all men.  Kept them distracted with her little 'I'm a silly beginner' routine. 

I bow to your superior knowledge :)  I'm more a quarter slot machine type myself (not that you can find them anymore...)  My sister and I went to Vegas for Thanksgiving, and I played (and lost) exactly $25 -- $20 at the hotel and $5 at the airport waiting for my plane. 

[bearcatfan]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

Multiple decks. In a high-stakes backroom game, they are probably playing with 5 decks at a time.  So unless someone has been counting Ace's, they won't know. Plus I noticed she played with all men.  Kept them distracted with her little 'I'm a silly beginner' routine. 

I didn't realize that. Shows my inexperience with high stakes poker!

1 minute ago, ahrtee said:

I bow to your superior knowledge :)  I'm more a quarter slot machine type myself (not that you can find them anymore...)  My sister and I went to Vegas for Thanksgiving, and I played (and lost) exactly $25 -- $20 at the hotel and $5 at the airport waiting for my plane. 

When my husband and I go to the casino, I start panicking when I lose $20. Not a risky gambler. That's why I rarely go.

[SueB]

My father was a pro.  It skipped a generation... NEVER play poker with my son.  He entered a tourney just for fun and came out just 1 seat out of the "money" on his first attempt.

Edited February 12, 2017 by SueB

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, bearcatfan said:

When my husband and I go to the casino, I start panicking when I lose $20. Not a risky gambler. That's why I rarely go.

I used to go to Cripple Creek when they first approved gambling.  My challenge was to take a $20 bill and see how long I could make it last.  If I could get 2 or 3 hours out of it then I considered it a win.  It was easier to do that with nickel or quarter machines.   That $20 bought me a whole day's entertainment (3 hour drive (roundtrip) through lovely scenery, 2-3 hours of playing, an hour to eat and another hour to walk around town and look in all the gift shops.  They also have some fascinating museums, including one in an old gold rush era brothel.)  

Edited February 12, 2017 by ahrtee

[Bishop]

I was disappointed.  There was so much more that they could have done with this episode, and instead, Dean seemed child-like throughout most of the storline.  I didn't get the horror of losing his memory and who he was with the exception of that one fantastic moment with Dean trying to remember his name as he talked to himself in the mirror.  That was heartbreaking, but other than that, the episode was basically "Sit here, Dean, and be a good boy, and we'll fix everything."  I would have preferred if there was more drama between Dean and Sam with Dean forgetting.  It could have been a great brothers episode, and instead it was sort of a Rowena/Sam episode.  It wasn't terrible, but with all the hype, I was expecting much better.  Also, how does Dean know to handle a gun so well if he forgot everything?  I mean, he was a dead shot with both of those witches.  Muscle memory?  I guess. (shrug)

Edited February 12, 2017 by Bishop

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, Bishop said:

I was disappointed.  There was so much more that they could have done with this episode, and instead, Dean seemed child-like throughout most of the storline.  I didn't get the horror of losing his memory and who he was with the exception of that one fantastic moment with Dean trying to remember his name as he talked to himself in the mirror.  That was heartbreaking, but other than that, the episode was basically "Sit here, Dean, and be a good boy, and we'll fix everything."  I would have preferred if there was more drama between Dean and Sam with Dean forgetting.  It could have been a great brothers episode, and instead it was sort of a Rowena/Sam episode.  It wasn't terrible, but with all the hype, I was expecting much better.  Also, how does Dean know to handle a gun so well if he forgot everything?  I mean, he was a dead shot with both of those witches.  Muscle memory?  I guess. (shrug)

This was my feeling after watching. It seemed that the only moment of real drama was when Dean was reciting the main facts about himself in the mirror but the rest of the episode was rather lighthearted. This definitely would have had more of an impact if there were some serious brother moments as Dean's memory started to fade but I understand that there's only so much they can do in an hour long show ( or 45 mins with commercials ). I did like the inclusion of Rowena as I feel that she's a good character that doesn't get to do much. I liked her admitting that having power doesn't necessarily make you happy and it made me chuckle that she only stated it because she knew that Dean wouldn't remember.

[MysteryGuest]

47 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I liked her admitting that having power doesn't necessarily make you happy and it made me chuckle that she only stated it because she knew that Dean wouldn't remember.

Based on the last scene of the episode, I think Dean did remember exactly what she said. We'll see if it comes up again down the road.  I hope it does.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, MysteryGuest said:

Based on the last scene of the episode, I think Dean did remember exactly what she said. We'll see if it comes up again down the road.  I hope it does.

That would be awesome if it does. It might make them less wary of her which could lead to more Rowena/Winchester team ups.

[Darkblood8]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

Based on the last scene of the episode, I think Dean did remember exactly what she said. We'll see if it comes up again down the road.  I hope it does.

I think he does. I also think the flashback at the end was showing Dean getting his memories back. I do hope this helps bring Rowena into the fold. At this point, she deserves to be a regular and she brings a different skill set than Cas or Crowley.

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This was my feeling after watching. It seemed that the only moment of real drama was when Dean was reciting the main facts about himself in the mirror but the rest of the episode was rather lighthearted. This definitely would have had more of an impact if there were some serious brother moments as Dean's memory started to fade but I understand that there's only so much they can do in an hour long show ( or 45 mins with commercials ). I did like the inclusion of Rowena as I feel that she's a good character that doesn't get to do much. I liked her admitting that having power doesn't necessarily make you happy and it made me chuckle that she only stated it because she knew that Dean wouldn't remember.

I felt a bit that way on first watch but on my 2nd viewing, I picked up on a lot more nuance in Jensen's role. He was shifting on a dime from funny to a more serious moment even before the bathroom scene. Like when he couldn't remember which key to use. IMO he was freaked out despite pretending to Sam or even not realizing he wasn't remembering.

I thought Jensen did amazing work with making me believe those moments when Dean really had no concept of monsters and witches or Sam or Rowena. That it was never even a thought in Deans mind. It felt completely authentic that Dean not remembering was not played as Dean forgetting but more like those were completely new things /experiences for Dean. Its hard to articulate what I mean but just give him all the damn awards.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I felt a bit that way on first watch but on my 2nd viewing, I picked up on a lot more nuance in Jensen's role.

Jensen always pulls off the comedic moments but I would have liked to see a little less of that and more emotion between Sam and Dean overall. I started to delete this ep from my dvr after watching but I'm going to rewatch and see if it affects me differently. Maybe I'm just being overly picky *shrugs*

[Aeryn13]

I would have prefered a serious episode but still count my blessings with a Dean-centric episode that is actually Dean-positive and didn`t suck. And the humor was actually lighthearted and fun. Still vastly better than anything they have done this Season IMO. Everything I feared about this episode when we first heard of the concept, didn`t happen so to me that was a big win. I easily liked it more than any and all episodes from Season 11 as a whole, though I did like some individual scenes more.

Before this episode aired, I was pretty angry they didn`t involve Mary when of course there is time for her to play hunter again with the BMOL. As if they want to perish even the thought of her being the main characters` mother instead of finding a balance between the two things. But now I have to revise that opinion. I bought them not involving her in the first place and seeing it all, I wouldn`t have wanted her there to spoil the fun. Rowena, outside of being a witch, is a better character for a more oddball concept like this. Cas could have worked because they often use him for comedic beats but I didn`t terribly miss him either. 

Overall, I consider this episode a win. Probably the last hurray for this Season. 

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Jensen always pulls off the comedic moments but I would have liked to see a little less of that and more emotion between Sam and Dean overall. I started to delete this ep from my dvr after watching but I'm going to rewatch and see if it affects me differently. Maybe I'm just being overly picky *shrugs*

I guess for me it didn't require more emotional scenes between Sam and Dean. I though it was portrahing Sam 's confusion about Deans plight as Sam   containing his emotions to help Dean. IMO he didn't want to so show his own fear to Dean for fear of it making matters worse once he understood what was happening.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I guess for me it didn't require more emotional scenes between Sam and Dean. I though it was portrahing Sam 's confusion about Deans plight as Sam   containing his emotions to help Dean. IMO he didn't want to so show his own fear to Dean for fear of it making matters worse once he understood what was happening.

Yes I understand all of this but I just would have liked to see more Sam and Dean moments in regards to what was going on. For instance when Sam told Rowena what he was feeling seeing Dean's memory being erased vs. how he felt seeing his brother die being worse. Of course for him to communicate that same info to Dean would have been more of a hindrance than helpful but something along the lines of that. I think my problem is that we don't see much emotion between the brothers anymore and I'd hoped that this episode would have more feels than it did.

[Darkblood8]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Overall, I consider this episode a win. Probably the last hurray for this Season. 

I know it's real early but so far this season I have been most impressed with Meredith Glynn. She seems like a real Dean fan and she should have another episode this year. Other than her, Dabb usually throws Dean fans a bone or two in his eps. I'm hopeful that this season will have at least a few more good Dean moments.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

 Other than her, Dabb usually throws Dean fans a bone or two in his eps. 

I find his eps to be especially bad for Dean. He got such a weak!Dean-kink, I hate it. But Glynn has really done good for me with her two episodes.  

[Myrelle]

7 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I find his eps to be especially bad for Dean. He got such a weak!Dean-kink, I hate it. But Glynn has really done good for me with her two episodes.  

IA. And Yockey has written Dean well so far also, IMO.

[Morrigan2575]

I absolutely loved this episode. Jensen did a fantastic job per usual. However, I also thought Jared did great as well. All in all I enjoyed the writing, acting and directing.

I loved seeing Rowena/Dean because we very rarely get interaction between the two. I usually associate Rowena with Sam(uel).

I loved the montage at the end, it was beautiful, sweet and sad all at the same time. I loved seeing happy/carefree Dean but, it was a poignant reminder of how weighted down Dean (and Sam) is after 12 plus years of crap. It also really hit me because of just how tragic the events of the episode was. Seeing Dean slowly lose everything that he was and everyone that he loved. Very sad.

I will say this, as much as I liked the final montage, it did give off the vibe if a character send off, which is obviously not happening any time soon.

[catrox14]

23 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

I think my problem is that we don't see much emotion between the brothers anymore and I'd hoped that this episode would have more feels than it did.

I think the boys are resolved to be on the same page now so maybe they don't require all the emotional reconnection as before.  Maybe a hug between them when they were reunited in the premiere eps would have nice but I still feel like their bond is stronger now. I think they are behaving with each other not unlike in s2 or s3.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I think the boys are resolved to be on the same page now so maybe they don't require all the emotional reconnection as before.  Maybe a hug between them when they were reunited in the premiere eps would have nice but I still feel like their bond is stronger now. I think they are behaving with each other not unlike in s2 or s3.

This could be the case but it would still have been nice to see; it's not out of the ordinary to display an outward show of emotion to a loved one especially when their life is in danger. We didn't even get any emotion between the two following their escape in First Blood which would have been nice to see due to the fact that they hadn't even seen each other in 6 weeks. As stated before this is just my opinion; YMMV.

[catrox14]

13 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

This could be the case but it would still have been nice to see; it's not out of the ordinary to display an outward show of emotion to a loved one especially when their life is in danger. We didn't even get any emotion between the two following their escape in First Blood which would have been nice to see due to the fact that they hadn't even seen each other in 6 weeks. As stated before this is just my opinion; YMMV.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to see, although I'm good with one or two bro-hugs a season. 

That's why I think they are more like s2 or s3. They are a united front, but this season they still have some issues given the stuff last season and the arrival of Mary.  They aren't fighting all the time. They have differences of opinion in dealing with Mary. But neither seems to be actively angry or hurt or carrying a grudge with the other.  Dean is stating his feelings about things in a pretty straightforward way and Sam is accepting that Dean will talk about things when he's ready. 

I dunno, I guess on the other hand, it's possible the whole Amara/Chuck thing and Mary coming back has left them a little more distant emotionally BUT still committed to being a team and trusting each other more.

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice to see, although I'm good with one or two bro-hugs a season. 

That's why I think they are more like s2 or s3. They are a united front, but this season they still have some issues given the stuff last season and the arrival of Mary.  They aren't fighting all the time. They have differences of opinion in dealing with Mary. But neither seems to be actively angry or hurt or carrying a grudge with the other.  Dean is stating his feelings about things in a pretty straightforward way and Sam is accepting that Dean will talk about things when he's ready. 

I dunno, I guess on the other hand, it's possible the whole Amara/Chuck thing and Mary coming back has left them a little more distant emotionally BUT still committed to being a team and trusting each other more.

I get what you're saying; I just would have liked to see something a little different. The two of them not fighting or hurting each other doesn't translate to family affection to me but to some viewers it does. It seems lately that only show of emotion is from Sam or Dean when speaking with Mary.

[bethy]

For me, the scene in the bathroom and the scene at the end where Sam notes that Dean looked happy without his baggage, were nice little emotional connections between them. Sam put his hand on Dean's shoulder a couple of times during the episode, which kind of surprised (and touched) me because I don't think of Sam as much of a toucher, for some reason. I felt like Jared played kind of a low-key panic once he realized that it was more than Dean's just being hungover. He didn't communicate that to Dean, I think, because as someone else said, he was trying to come across as calm and reassuring for his brother. I actually kind of like the subtleness of those moments. For me they communicated a depth of care that doesn't necessarily have to be spoken aloud. 

I'm not trying to convince anyone, I promise because, of course, mileage varies. :) But other people's perspectives made me think through my own reactions!

[Darkblood8]

6 hours ago, Myrelle said:

IA. And Yockey has written Dean well so far also, IMO.

I like Yockey a lot but mostly because he seems really good at creating new characters. I'm curious if he will continue the trend of inserting the character into the episode title.

[SueB]

I liked that they went into the bathroom to have the 're-chat'.  I thought that was a very 'connecting' moment.  Sam, IMO, was very respectful of Dean.  He takes the time to tell him what's going on before he leaves to go 'save the day'.  He knew Dean would probably forget it all immediately, but Sam took the time to level with him one last time before departing.  I liked that choice.  It was unusual blocking (Sam on the tub, Dean on the toilet) but very much what brothers would do.  

[Morrigan2575]

On 2/12/2017 at 0:14 PM, SueB said:

Multiple decks. In a high-stakes backroom game, they are probably playing with 5 decks at a time.  So unless someone has been counting Ace's, they won't know. Plus I noticed she played with all men.  Kept them distracted with her little 'I'm a silly beginner' routine. 

I have never seen Poker played with multiple decks (at the same time), in fact it would be impossible to play that. There's no hand for 5 of a Kind, yet if you have multiple decks you could end up with that.

Blackjack is generally played with multiple decks (usually a 6 deck shu, although some have 4 or 8 depending on the table). Blackjack can also be played with a single deck but, I don't like playing those tables. 

ETA: Upon further reflection you can have 5 of a Kind, they have those on Jokers Wild Video Pokers games but, you never see that on a table game (back room or other).

Edited February 14, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[SueB]

47 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I have never seen Poker played with multiple decks (at the same time), in fact it would be impossible to play that. There's no hand for 5 of a Kind, yet if you have multiple decks you could end up with that.

Blackjack is generally played with multiple decks (usually a 6 deck shu, although some have 4 or 8 depending on the table). Blackjack can also be played with a single deck but, I don't like playing those tables. 

ETA: Upon further reflection you can have 5 of a Kind, they have those on Jokers Wild Video Pokers games but, you never see that on a table game (back room or other).

You're right! I WAS thinking of Blackjack.   I'm guessing Rowena could just use the repelling spell "Abite!" ..and dash.  But it's not very smart.

[7kstar]

On 2/11/2017 at 1:03 PM, bearcatfan said:

He will use the n word without hesitation because when he was in his 20s, that is what was commonly used, even though he's hasn't used that term in 50 years. Cusses a lot too and my husband said he never heard him cuss when he was a kid, even when very angry.

It is actually very common for dementia patients to start cussing as the stages get worse.  My great grandmother never cussed until the end with dementia.  I think it is a sound response more than meaning. 

I do remember that although I enjoy Jensen's broad comedy, I really wanted it toned down more.  I wanted less is more.  This is where a stronger director could help with choices.  Don't have time for rewatch now, but plan to do so and see how it lands on second viewing. 

[rue721]

On 2/12/2017 at 11:18 AM, catrox14 said:

IMO, Dean couldn't give a rats ass about Rowena’s gambling habits because he doesn't care about  nor particularly like Rowena.  If she was caught cheating and was killed for it, I doubt he would bat an eye other than knowing they are now without an occasional ally.

I agree that he probably wouldn't care, but I don't think that's why he wouldn't care.

IMO Dean likes messing with people and he would think it was funny to see someone getting one over on all these supposed badasses. The thrill of the trick actually being semi-dangerous would just make it better (although I really doubt that any of those gamblers were dangerous to Rowena, who was at least able to keep standing after going one-on-one with the Darkness).

Anyway, I think that's what Dean likes about hustling pool, too -- he likes messing with people. Not in a malicious way, more in an impish way IMO. He seems like the type to find it pretty funny when the Big Man on Campus types get knocked down a peg.

YMMV of course, just the vibe I get from him.

I don't really think either Sam or Dean care enough about money to really get het up about stealing, scamming, cheating, or any of those kind of things. With them, money is very "easy come easy go." So they're not the type to be really that concerned with property rights lol. I think they care about people (not) getting hurt, and they care about stuff if it has sentimental value or because somebody/they need it or something, but I think that's about it, and they don't really care about money per se or the things that it can buy all that much one way or another. YMMV also.

Also, regarding Rowena in particular -- like 95% of her charm is that she's such a sleaze IMO. (Same is true for Crowley). So IMO it's also charming seeing her sleaze around, cheating at a backroom card game. Or seeing her sleaze around in the Sunbelt, unsuccessfully gold-digging. Or seeing her do whatever other sleazy thing she's up to next. Man, Rowena has really grown on me LOL.

[sarthaz]

Little late to this party, but I really enjoyed this episode.  It was reminiscent of the old days with a mostly self-contained story, a cheap hotel room, and some sleuthing. Really, the only thing I didn't like was the way they handled the witch stuff.  Rowena's out-of-control powerful, and she gets immediately pinned against the wall by witch-of-the-week?  They should have done more with that.  And Sam waving his witch-killing gun at Rowena like some rookie hunter-wannabe was out-of-character naive, considering his previous dealings with witches, not to mention ones with an all powerful spell book.  Mostly, though, the episode was lots of fun, focused heavily on the boys, was low on angst, and didn't have the weight of the universe at risk.  Good stuff!

[Mick Lady]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:14 AM, SueB said:

Multiple decks. In a high-stakes backroom game, they are probably playing with 5 decks at a time.  So unless someone has been counting Ace's, they won't know. Plus I noticed she played with all men.  Kept them distracted with her little 'I'm a silly beginner' routine. 

I've hustled a ton of people with pool! I've worked at stables all through my younger days, and they all had pool tables for the grooms in the break room, and I've spent may a rainy day playing pool, and became very good at it. For the boy's (and me!) that's not cheating, you just blow the first few games, than run the table. It's done all the time. I think Dean would love Rowena and her poker playing! I also think they'd make an awesome couple!

I too want the "Mega Coven!" Rowena has become one of my favorites on this show.

[Mick Lady]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:48 PM, catrox14 said:

I felt a bit that way on first watch but on my 2nd viewing, I picked up on a lot more nuance in Jensen's role. He was shifting on a dime from funny to a more serious moment even before the bathroom scene. Like when he couldn't remember which key to use. IMO he was freaked out despite pretending to Sam or even not realizing he wasn't remembering.

I thought Jensen did amazing work with making me believe those moments when Dean really had no concept of monsters and witches or Sam or Rowena. That it was never even a thought in Deans mind. It felt completely authentic that Dean not remembering was not played as Dean forgetting but more like those were completely new things /experiences for Dean. Its hard to articulate what I mean but just give him all the damn awards.

I expected a reaction like Kevin's (in "Reading Is Fundamental") when the boys, Meg, and Cas were talking after Cas "woke up" and the demons and angels showed up, and Kevin screamed "What is going on here!?" or something like that...