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S02.E02: Governed by Sound Reason and True Religion

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I do feel less physical chemistry between the actors, though.  Not situational.  Just during every moment, I felt more of a spark between them last season.  That's fine.  I'm not complaining.  Just observing.

 

I wonder if it's actually a conscious acting choice by Tatiana Maslany. Cosima is still drawn to Delphine and trusts her more than she probably should. However, there's a wariness now in Cosima's interactions with Delphine that wasn't there until late last season. Maybe the downplay in physical chemistry is a result of Cosima's attempt to keep Delphine at arm's length (she did tell Felix and Sarah she "wouldn't be fooled again.") But when Cosima gives into her feelings of affection, I still feel the spark between the actors - most especially in the "You making like a shopping list for me?" interaction. Hot damn.

 

ETA: Delphine aside, I really really really hope we get more snarky Rachel/Cosima scenes. They're just so completely different from each other, and yet they share this genetic bond.  Perhaps Cosima will play a role in peeling back Rachel's layers. I would also kill to see them get high together, which probably would never happen on the show so... get on it fanfic writers!

Edited by jaybear1701
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wonder if it's actually a conscious acting choice by Tatiana Maslany. Cosima is still drawn to Delphine and trusts her more than she probably should. However, there's a wariness now in Cosima's interactions with Delphine that wasn't there until late last season.

This. Exactly this.

 

One more thought. Does the scientistfanatic seem about the right age to have been part of Project LEDA? Maybe he knows Mrs. S?

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I wonder if it's actually a conscious acting choice by Tatiana Maslany. Cosima is still drawn to Delphine and trusts her more than she probably should. However, there's a wariness now in Cosima's interactions with Delphine that wasn't there until late last season.

 

I spied some wariness when Delphine was trying to run interference with Cosima's and Leekie's little back and forth. Also I get the feeling she is 100% done with Leekie and Delphine trying to say anything good about DYAD, and Delphine's connection to DYAD is still a bit like a huge pink elephant in the room at times. Otherwise I feel they got plenty of chemistry this season, and are shown to be at ease in each others personal space. That scene you mention stood out to me with that hot damn look Delphine sent Cosima after she moved out of Delphine's personal space with that little grin. Woah.

Edited by Riful

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One of the interesting things to me about the new creepy Prolitheans is that while the science guy seems to be in charge, obviously there is some other influence at work since the daughter seems to be drinking the Prolitheans kool aid re: clones = abominations, while the dad is not.

Is it the mother? Another preacher we haven't met yet? Some sort of cult leader?

I would assume the Prolitheans have some connection to project Leda, given the scope of the organiztion. I can't imagine something like that cropping up just in case there were a few clones out there. I'm guessing the group was founded or at least the obsession with the clones inspired by some ex project Leda person. Perhaps the breeder guy or maybe someone we haven't met yet.

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Rethinking this:

Rachel: So...you're gay.

Cosima: My sexuality isn't the most interesting thing about me.

Aside from it being a fun exchange, it could be a bit of foreshadowing that Cosima's sexual orientation might become important--like what if she uses Sarah's DNA difference to cure herself, and, in the process, becomes fertile, and has a child without ever having had any sperm come anywhere near her reproductive parts. You know, like a clone.

Edited by maraleia · Reason: changed term to sexual orientation per standards of correct terminology

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How is Siobhan even connected to Project LEDA? Maria Doyle Kennedy is almost 50, so I'm assuming Siobhan is around that age. The picture Amelia had was dated July 22, 1977. That was 37 years ago, which would make Siobhan 13 at the time the picture was taken. Even if you age her up to 18 (making Siobhan 55 now, which... I don't know, maybe she's got great genes), I can't see where she fits in. The way she said, "They're Project LEDA" made it sound like she had a deep connection to whatever LEDA is or was, but... how? Am I just missing something super obvious?

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I love how this show manages to balance all these different emotional tones, and never go overboard with one. I think it is one of the best aspects of the series, since it allows for a much more nuanced viewing experience instead of e.g. The Walking Dead or Game of Thrones which is basically 99% grittiness and often almost crippling despair. It can become a bit too much at times in those shows, but Orphan Black never lets one emotional chord overshadow the other. Mix that in with the always moving plot at a relatively high pace, it makes me enjoy this show even more.

Yeah I agree 100%. I think they could easily go overboard dramatic with Alison with the pill popping and the booze and the depression and craziness. And to a certain extent, her thread is dramatic, but it also maintains its dark humor, which I think is really important tonally.

 

 

Another aspect of the show I appreciate is that they don't really drag anything out for too long. It was good that Alison found out about Donnie and of course it happened at like the worst time.

There was an interview with Graeme Manson and John Fawcett that came out last night where they said it was vital that they let Alison discover Donnie is her monitor relatively quickly because the show kind of hinges on the audience learning things as the clones do, and they didn't want to have the audience ahead of everyone on the show for very long.

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Episode MVP goes to Mrs. S. Holy shit, what a badass. Impaling someone’s hands with steak knives and then calmly capping them. I fully believe she is a bad-guy-turned-good-guy and loves Sarah, Felix, and Kira.

 

This show is pure adrenaline. No useless filler, just action, dark humor, thought-provoking ideas about the future of human evolution, and Tatiana Maslany’s witchcraft – I mean, beyond excelling acting.

 

Rachel’s genuinely curious “You’re gay?” remark to Cosima was interesting. It seems like Rachel/DYAD is not expecting the clones to deviate from their genetic makeup and to have a gay clone is unimaginable. “My sexuality isn't the most interesting thing about me” is all well and good, but it is interesting how much variance there is in the clones’ sexuality. Not a surprise that a bohemian, pierced, tattooed, Berkeley stoner would have more freedom in her sexual preferences than an uptight, WASPy, suburban Stepford Wife.

 

Is it in Felix's (i.e. the actor's) contract for this season that he expose his ass in every episode?

Let’s hope so.

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Rachel’s genuinely curious “You’re gay?” remark to Cosima was interesting. It seems like Rachel/DYAD is not expecting the clones to deviate from their genetic makeup and to have a gay clone is unimaginable. “My sexuality isn't the most interesting thing about me” is all well and good, but it is interesting how much variance there is in the clones’ sexuality. Not a surprise that a bohemian, pierced, tattooed, Berkeley stoner would have more freedom in her sexual preferences than an uptight, WASPy, suburban Stepford Wife.

I hadn't thought about it earlier, but the current thinking on sexual preference is that it is biological rather than a choice--quite a few folks consider this to be a political hot button. This might be why Rachel was so surprised. So maybe all of the clones would be gay if they weren't so uptight? Or maybe that's another purpose of throwing in the mirror image discussion--it allows them to be opposites. I wonder if they were all twins in their respective wombs, but Helena and Sarah are the only complete pairs to survive. So is Helena gay? If so, it's a good thing Tomas got nailed (literally) this week, 'cause I don't think he'd approve. Edited by shapeshifter

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I hadn't thought about it earlier, but the current thinking on sexual preference is that it is biological rather than a choice--quite a few folks consider this to be a political hot button. This might be why Rachel was so surprised. So maybe all of the clones would be gay if they weren't so uptight? Or maybe that's another purpose of throwing in the mirror image discussion--it allows them to be opposites. I wonder if they were all twins in their respective wombs, but Helena and Sarah are the only complete pairs to survive. So is Helena gay? If so, it's a good thing Tomas got nailed (literally) this week, 'cause I don't think he'd approve.

Touchy territory for the show to tread, given that they really don't know for sure what determines sexuality, but biology could play a role without it being genetic.....I.e. Stuff that happened during the gestation process after implantation in the surrogate mothers. They have also suggested variations caused by the cloning process resulting in some clones having the respiratory issues and some not that could also affect sexuality if they wanted to go that route.

How is Siobhan even connected to Project LEDA? Maria Doyle Kennedy is almost 50, so I'm assuming Siobhan is around that age. The picture Amelia had was dated July 22, 1977. That was 37 years ago, which would make Siobhan 13 at the time the picture was taken. Even if you age her up to 18 (making Siobhan 55 now, which... I don't know, maybe she's got great genes), I can't see where she fits in. The way she said, "They're Project LEDA" made it sound like she had a deep connection to whatever LEDA is or was, but... how? Am I just missing something super obvious?

Could be a lot of things. Maybe that pic was taken at the beginning of project LEDA and S joined up later. Maybe the woman in the pic is S's mom. Or it could be that S is older than the actress. My mom is 65 and looks about the same age as S, maybe younger.

Edited by Joystickenvy

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I hadn't thought about it earlier, but the current thinking on sexual preference is that it is biological rather than a choice--quite a few folks consider this to be a political hot button. This might be why Rachel was so surprised. So maybe all of the clones would be gay if they weren't so uptight?

 

I was thinking something along those lines, that the possibility for same-sex relationships is there in all the clones (and all people, maybe?) but one’s specific environment makes expressing those tendencies more or less likely. It’s sort of like biology + choice/circumstance.]

 

...biology could play a role without it being genetic.....I.e. Stuff that happened during the gestation process after implantation in the surrogate mothers.

 

That too. The surrogate mothers’ prenatal hormone levels all differed and that could also impact the clones’ sexualities. Like I said, it’s an interesting discussion and pretty ballsy for the show to go there. I do hope they return to the topic, but I can see various groups of viewers being offended for one reason or another if the show takes a definitive stance on the issue.

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Regarding Cosima and Delphine, I think there is still the physical attraction for Cosima. (Don't judge my heart.) But there's also the wariness that's keeping her from being totally invested on an emotional level.

 

Similarly for Delphine, I'm not certain how much she has true feelings for Cosima versus how much she's being a good company girl. Although it does seem that her relationship with Cosima would be of note to the Neolutionists such as Rachel. It does seem that Leekie is aware.

 

There does seem to be more distance between the two of them this season. I'd like to think it's a choice by the actors/production team.

 

As far as sexuality in general, with identical twins there are variations in sexuality so it should not be unexpected to see variation in the clones.

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That was Helena. They all have the same face so how would processing faces help? I pay attention to hair styles ;-) . Helena has the ratty blond hair. They took her from the hospital to the barn.

Trying to confirm if the one discussed as adopted by prolethian-scientist was on-screen or not.

Are you talking about when the farmer asked Tomas how long she had been with him and he said since she was 12? They were talking about Helena.

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I hadn't thought about it earlier, but the current thinking on sexual preference is that it is biological rather than a choice--quite a few folks consider this to be a political hot button. This might be why Rachel was so surprised. So maybe all of the clones would be gay if they weren't so uptight?

 

As far as sexuality in general, with identical twins there are variations in sexuality so it should not be unexpected to see variation in the clones.

 

I think this is an interesting way for the show to go…I do know a set of identical twins in which one is gay and the other is straight. Raised in the same household, best friends, neither had any dramatically different experience in life before graduating college. So why not write something like this in? The clones are different in other ways as well: Cosima has science/math aptitude while Beth preferred solving problems a different way; Allison has a strong, scary personality (like Rachel)  and Sarah - who knows what her aptitude is beyond disappearing and staying alive? Oh and Helena is a good shot. Environmental factors in utero could account for somethings beyond basic DNA in that nurture affects nature.  As my friend, the gay twin would say, "There is so much we don't know about twinning." 

 

In fact, I like these personality differences so much that I'd like to see more clones. Here are some ideas:

  -Xantania, the child of Scientology missionaries, raised at sea off the coast of Argentina

  -Casey, the Navy F-18 Hornet fighter pilot with contacts at the Pentagon

  -Sister Juanita, nun in a Mexican abbey

  -Sophie, the Quebecois NASCAR driver

  -Jen, Hollywood extra on dragon-themed TV show/Caterer 

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I've liked Peter Outerbridge in many roles, most notably, ReGenesis. I think this was good casting here. I'm excited to see what his character's about.

 

I loved that show so hard.  I kept thinking he was like the opposite of Dr. Sandstrom in this on so many levels (his faith, the implication that he uses science in some nefarious way, all of it).  In my mind he's David's evil twin, right now.  It amuses me greatly.

 

He's totally one of those "elevate crap to watchable" actors so I'm delighted to see him on some quality TV.  He had a brief run on Nikita but they sort of ran his character into the ground.

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Rachel being surprised that Cosima is gay points to a larger issue of sexual orientation (FYI that is the preferred term not sexual preference) among all humans. Drop the soap and beeble mentioned identical twins and the fact that in some cases twins, while residing in the same womb, might emerge with different orientations i.e. one straight and one gay or lesbian, one straight and one bisexual, or one bisexual and one gay or lesbian.

Maybe the show is trying to say that no matter how much we might want to create multiple versions of ourselves there will always be variations based on how each person's biology is formed while in the womb. The fact that they stated Sarah and Helena are mirrors of each other, Sarah can give birth to the next generation of humans and Cosima is a lesbian points to this fact.

I find this fascinating and am looking forward to the rest of the season. It looks like they are wading into some interesting waters regarding science and religion.

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Maybe the show is trying to say that no matter how much we might want to create multiple versions of ourselves there will always be variations based on how each person's biology is formed while in the womb.

 

Interesting ideas, maraleia!

 

I also think that eliminating any variation between the clones is going to be (/already is) a major plot point. Actually, even before I started watching this show and just knew about its vague premise, I thought that Orphan Black was heavily influenced by an old YA book series called Replica by Marilyn Kaye. In it a girl (age 12) discovers that she is a genetically enhanced clone and happens to meet several of her "sisters" and gradually realizes what the organization who created them (and is now targeting them) wants: to create a master race to eventually "replace" regular humans. I don't think there is any connection beyond surface similarities between the books and show, but I do wonder if this is what DYAD is aiming for (under the guise of "neolution"). If that's the case, any individuality between the clones would have to be controlled and stomped out pronto, or their experiment fails. And so far this batch of clones seems to be just that: one's a serial killer, two are coughing up blood, only one got pregnant, one is gay, etc. Can't have a master race with that much variation and genetic diversity. I don't think so, anyway.

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I'm glad you mentioned the pregnancy; I'd completely forgotten that this episode finally cleared up if Sarah was a fluke or if the lack of fertility was because of the monitoring situation. 

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Whew, what a ride. I love how the events are unfolding in ways that make sense and are interesting and don't dumb things down for the audience.

 

So many of my thoughts, observations etc have already been posted by the fabulous posters here, I love reading your posts! All I'll say is that damn, Mrs. S, has won me over and shown what a truly BAMF she was and is, I will never get tired of seeing Felix's ass, and that I almost teared up when Alison realized that he was actually leaving town, leaving HER. Also, the thought of Helena being used as a broodmare makes me shudder like Homer Simpson.

 

Btw I have totally gotten the boyfriend hooked. I did not record season 2's premiere ep downstairs since he only seemed to watch season 1 with me (I was rewatching it and told him he would love it) as a courtesy so I recorded it upstairs just for me. Well last Friday rolls around and he asks "did you not record season 2 downstairs, I thought it was supposed to start soon?" I reply that he seemed interested but not as hopped up for the show as I am. "I LIKED it," he snits, "I want to see what happens to them and to hear you laugh when Donnie shows up in his tee shirt and baggy undies and to declare your love for Alison whenever she does ANYthing." So now OB is set up as a season pass recording on BOTH of our tv's, yay!

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Religious daughter could be trouble down the line. I get a hardline vibe from her that could be dangerous as Helena heals. She seems sneaky, and not fully on-board with what her dad is spouting. DON'T touch Helena, youse guys! We just got her back! If I had to choose one thing I'm looking forward to this season it's Helena reuniting with Sarah. 

Oh, that girl is gonna be trouble. Or if Helena heals fast enough the daughter may find herself in some trouble if she fucks with Helena too much.

 

 

The only negative thing about this episode for me was Donnie being a bumbling idiot. You'd think he would be more competent. Maybe after all these years with Alison he thinks he knows her enough to be less careful, but I didn't really buy that scene.

I thought that was odd too, but then I wondered if this is really the first time he's ever had to do full on recon on Alison. Leading up to the events of the show I got the impression that The Hendrix family was living a pretty "normal" life without much clone related excitement and there probably wasn't a whole lot for Donnie to report on aside from general updates and allowing people to come in an test his wife. I really would love to know exactly how long he's been monitoring her. They were high school sweethearts and I'd find it hard to believe DYAD convinced a teenage boy to commit to that kind of long-con commitment. So, what did they tell Donnie to get him to spy on his wife? 

 

Actually, one of the thing I love about the show is the potential in whole Monitor situation. I'd love to know more about Paul (didn't even realize he wasn't in the ep until you guys mentioned it. heh.) and Afghanistan and I love to know how Delphine got involved. She obviously knows more about the clones given her involvement with DYAD, but considering how that place seem to have people on "need to know" basis I wouldn't be surprised if she genuinely doesn't know about the shadier shit going on.

 

 

I wonder if it's actually a conscious acting choice by Tatiana Maslany. Cosima is still drawn to Delphine and trusts her more than she probably should. However, there's a wariness now in Cosima's interactions with Delphine that wasn't there until late last season.

That's so weird because when I was watching the Cosima/Leekie/Delphine scene I thought C&D were kind of off and I thought it was mostly because (as you mentioned) Cosima seemed standoffish while Delphine sort of had this barely concealed "Please don't fight!" vibe. Then, I thought they were back to their usual selves when it was just them in the lab and the show has been so damn good with little stuff like that, so for now I'm on board with the awkwardness being a choice by TPTB and the actors.

 

 

One of the interesting things to me about the new creepy Prolitheans is that while the science guy seems to be in charge, obviously there is some other influence at work since the daughter seems to be drinking the Prolitheans kool aid re: clones = abominations, while the dad is not.

Is it the mother? Another preacher we haven't met yet? Some sort of cult leader?

Just double checking.....is the group on the farm a sort of splinter group from the more Tomas thinking Prolithiean group? I remember Leekie new Tomas so I figured he was a part of the main Prolithean group and he was hardcore religious. 

 

ANyway, the wife was freaking my shit out. I get the vibe that she may be much more hardline about the clones than her husband. BTW, who is that actress? I recognized her face immediately, but I couldn't place what I'd seen her in before.

 

 

I loved that show so hard.  I kept thinking he was like the opposite of Dr. Sandstrom in this on so many levels (his faith, the implication that he uses science in some nefarious way, all of it).  In my mind he's David's evil twin, right now.  It amuses me greatly.

HA! I only got to see the first 2 season of ReGenesis, but I loved them. I kept thinking of him as EvilSandstrom too!

Edited by hardy har
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Wow, what a jam packed episode!! So much happend it is hard to proces everything.

 

One of the things that I just remembered was Cosima asking Rachel about examining the original and Rachel brushed her off with some remark. I can't remember what she said exactly, something like "It's not possible."? I hope that we get  to find out more about the Original.

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There were a couple of scenes in this episode that immediately brought something else to mind. First – Cosima, welcome to Dr. Walter Bishop's old lab! Second, much of the goings-on at the Birdwatcher safehouse were reminiscent of Children of Men, and, I'm thinking, not coincidentally.

 

I also believe that the Proletheans intend to breed Helena, I just hope it's not with an arm in a plastic bag.

 

My favourite (of several) Felix quotes for this week was when Alison wailed that she had killed Aynsley: "No, you didn't… hardly."

 

Regarding the actor playing the guy who brought Sarah to Mrs. S:

If that helps, his name is Julian Richings, and he played Death on Supernatural.

 

And he was a fellow parent at the school my kids went to here in Toronto. I used to see him at school events.

Religious daughter could be trouble down the line. I get a hardline vibe from her that could be dangerous as Helena heals.

Well, she did refer to Helena as "it".

Edited by beedub
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Personally, I've never felt much chemistry between Cosima and Delphine, mostly because I find the actress who plays Delphine to be bland and just generally lacking in charisma.  I'd rather see Cosima interact more with Rachel.  I'd also like to see if Paul connects with Cosima and maybe they team up to help Clone Club from inside.

 

 

Total shock and awe with Mrs. S and the way she went about eliminating the danger to Kira.  Whatever her origins or how she's connected to Project Leda, I'm going to believe she has Kira's (and Sarah's and Fee's) best interests at heart.  She kept Sarah so well hidden that neither Dyad nor the Prolethians even knew she existed.  Plus, I remember her awesome words to Sarah and Felix in season 1:  "If any of this takes one step towards Kira, you need to yell fire.  This life we've built for ourselves in this country, we burn it all down if we have to."  And damn, she pinned that woman to the table like a bug.  

 

 

I wonder what Alison is going to do now that she realizes Dyad lied to her so that she would sign their contract.  They told her she could live her life unmonitored.  Leekie even specifically told her that her monitor had been lifted.

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Ha, I didn't realize Captain Cardboard was gone this episode at all. 

I do really like that Art has been brought into Clone Club, though.

 

As for the differences in the clones' sexuality [or more to the point, Cosima's difference], the writers said in an interview they've been influenced by the current prevailing theory, which is that womb chemistry likely plays the biggest role in a developing fetus's eventual sexuality.  Since all the clones [except for the twins] were carried by different birth mothers, womb environment is one very crucial difference that could affect myriad traits that aren't strictly genetic.

 

And speaking of Cosima's sexuality, when she lets her guard down with Delphine they still generate a lot of heat from where I'm sitting.  But there are definite trust issues there now, and when Delphine is mediating the tension between Cosima and Leeky [or trying to], shit does get awkward.  I never doubted that's intentional, though.  I kind of think everything Tatiana does is perfectly intentional, and masterful, and basically I'm in awe of her complete command of her art.

Edited by bravelittletoaster
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I laughed out loud when Mrs. S said that she tossed her apartment and kidnapped Kira to "confuse the situation." I think we've stumbled on the only reason anyone does anything on this show.

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Whew!  I had to marathon all of Season 1 of O.B. when a friend from TWoP got a job recapping the show and, just wow.  Tatiana Maslany was jobbed when she was overlooked for an Emmy last season.  She is amazing.  This latest episode was so tight that it was almost claustrophobic.  In a good way.  I was so creeped out by the birdwatcher woman, "Take it outside...", but still didn't expect her to be impaled to the table like a crucifixion, then later shot by Mrs. S.  I wasn't as uncomfortable with bumbling Donnie as some posters, but must admit that I liked Kira better when she was just Sarah's beloved child, everything she lived for but couldn't quite care for, than the clone baby with super powers of observation.  Indeed the creators hinted at that last season when she knew in a nanosecond that Alison wasn't her mother, and again when she came downstairs late at night and said she felt something bad was going to happen.  But she seemed like a 7 year old then.  When she called Sarah from the hotel room she just had such a blank stare on her face, it was all out of context with how frightened a kid would be in that situation.  But it is a small nit to pick in a great show.  Felix rocks.  If he is a monitor I will personally off him.

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A small thing: When Rachel is bossing Cosima around, she immediately refers to them as "we," even while Cosima is covering up her heebie-jeebies by being a brat. Of course she's as invested as Cosima in finding a cure for Clonefluenza, but I like to think that she just wants to be friends and start her own Clone Country Club.

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I loved when it got shown that Helena's innards are backwards. Situs inversus, nice! I wouldn't say "I knew it," but I'm not surprised since I noticed last season that she was left-handed.

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I'm going to slowly catch up.  
I haven't seen mentioned yet anything about the name Leda.  Raped by Zeus in the form of a swan and gave birth to twins Castor and Pollux.  And  Helen of Troy.  Ok, we have the twins, but is there an implication that there is a third (fraternal) triplet of the opposite sex?

 

(Rhetorical question, thinking with my fingers.  I don't want spoilers.)

 

Edited because a third twin would make no sense.

Edited by Haleth

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I'm going to slowly catch up.  

I haven't seen mentioned yet anything about the name Leda.  Raped by Zeus in the form of a swan and gave birth to twins Castor and Pollux.  And  Helen of Troy....

...(Rhetorical question, thinking with my fingers.  I don't want spoilers.)

We do discuss this in the threads here, so... ;>)
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I'm going to slowly catch up.  

I haven't seen mentioned yet anything about the name Leda.  Raped by Zeus in the form of a swan and gave birth to twins Castor and Pollux.  And  Helen of Troy.  Ok, we have the twins, but is there an implication that there is a third (fraternal) triplet of the opposite sex?

 

(Rhetorical question, thinking with my fingers.  I don't want spoilers.)

 

Edited because a third twin would make no sense.

 

As you continue with Season Two, you will find plenty of discussion (both on the show and in these threads) about the references to mythology...and that's all I have to say about that.

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Surprised no one mentioned my favorite Felix line of the episode about how it was Ainsley's own fault she died because she wore a scarf in the kitchen.

I LOLed big time! He's such an awesome character and I actually am enjoying his interactions with Allison more than Sarah.

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