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History Talk: The Victorian Era

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It should be noted that it was only long after both Albert's and Victoria's deaths (to say nothing of even longer after the tragic Duchess of Saxe-Coburg Saalfeld's death) that any insinuations of Albert being the son of anyone besides Ernst I, Duke of Coburg came to light! And the only reason they stuck with anyone was because the Duchess Louise had an affair four years after Albert was born and forced to divorce and abandon her sons.

 

OTOH, almost immediately after the future Catherine the Great bore the future Emperor Paul of Russia, there was gossip about the latter's paternity which supposedly led the sitting monarch Empress Elisabeth to remark 'It wouldn't be the first time a bastard sat upon the Romanov throne'!

 

Between mixing up the historic dates of virtually everything  documented that's happened since Victoria's marriage, the season depicted as being an endless late summer, early autumn (despite both Vic and Albert's two eldest children being November babies) and now this flatfooted belated attempt to slander two dynasties, I'm on the verge of throwing this series under the bus!

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3 hours ago, Blergh said:

It should be noted that it was only long after both Albert's and Victoria's deaths (to say nothing of even longer after the tragic Duchess of Saxe-Coburg Saalfeld's death) that any insinuations of Albert being the son of anyone besides Ernst I, Duke of Coburg came to light! And the only reason they stuck with anyone was because the Duchess Louise had an affair four years after Albert was born and forced to divorce and abandon her sons.

 

OTOH, almost immediately after the future Catherine the Great bore the future Emperor Paul of Russia, there was gossip about the latter's paternity which supposedly led the sitting monarch Empress Elisabeth to remark 'It wouldn't be the first time a bastard sat upon the Romanov throne'!

 

Between mixing up the historic dates of virtually everything  documented that's happened since Victoria's marriage, the season depicted as being an endless late summer, early autumn (despite both Vic and Albert's two eldest children being November babies) and now this flatfooted belated attempt to slander two dynasties, I'm on the verge of throwing this series under the bus!

The problem with historical fiction is that they will throw in enough truth to make it seem like history, so people tend to believe it's all true. The more curious among us go directly to reference sources to point out the fiction, while the less curious will accept it all as fact. 

It is frustrating, but I like the spectacle and pomp, pretty people and pretty clothes. I can fact-checker when it's over.

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17 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

While it shows that Palmerston was a father figure/adolescent crush for Victoria

Which one is Palmerston?  Who is the actor?

13 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

CousinAmy : The problem with historical fiction is that they will throw in enough truth to make it seem like history, so people tend to believe it's all true. The more curious among us go directly to reference sources to point out the fiction, while the less curious will accept it all as fact. 

Which is what I find maddening about like this and The Crown.  I understand that these are not documentaries, some things need to be dramatized, but for the sake of sanity get the facts straight.  Dates are important!  There really should be disclaimers at the beginning of each episode stating that much liberty is being taken with characterizations.

 

Speaking of Edward being a pain for his parents, one could say it was because he did not conform to their expectations for him.  He is said to have had a sweet manner as a child  and was intelligent but was not as clever as his sister Vicky.  He did not excel at the educational program devised by Prince Albert, who is said to have preferred Vicky's more similar intellect and athletic nature.  Victoria herself does not seem to be nurturing, she considered her son a disappointment from the start and later abhorred his actions as he grew. Did she not say as much in her diaries?  He seems to have followed in the footsteps of his Hanoverian relatives with king-sized appetites for eating, drinking and smoking and mistresses.  And we all know the story of how she blamed him for the death of his father.  He did prove to be an able king, "a greater success than anyone had expected" and despite his own turbulent relations with his parents, accounts say he had a good relationship with his children.  He ensured that his second son and heir, George V, was better prepared to take the throne than he had been.

I wonder how much interaction between Victoria and Albert and their children we will be shown.  

Edited by elle
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5 hours ago, elle said:

Which one is Palmerston?  Who is the actor?

My bad. I meant Melbourne. Palmerston was PM during the 1850s and '60s.

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I wonder how much interaction between Victoria and Albert and their children we will be shown.  

Probably very little. I don't think we'll get anywhere near the "Mrs. Brown" phase of her reign.

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My Princeling eye-rolling in the ep thread has more to do with my knowledge of Disraeli -- not Victoria.

In a way Bertie was the Prince Charles of his day: waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting.  He had his admirable qualities, but I don't retract the "pain in the ass to his mother" comment.  He was both. 

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On 1/25/2018 at 11:43 AM, voiceover said:

My Princeling eye-rolling in the ep thread has more to do with my knowledge of Disraeli -- not Victoria.

In a way Bertie was the Prince Charles of his day: waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting.  He had his admirable qualities, but I don't retract the "pain in the ass to his mother" comment.  He was both. 

Bertie was 60-ish when he became King? Has any other heir had to wait as long as Prince Chuck? He much have great genes for longevity but he'll be 70 this year and in the US he'd be on Medicare, collecting Social Security and enjoying retirement. (For context, my boyfriend, who will be 72 this year, retired from his job with a nice pension at 56.)

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Bertie was the longest King-in-waiting. Charles now has that dubious honor. But Charles and Elizabeth seem to have a better relationship than Victoria and Bertie. 

Edited by chitowngirl
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I’m really enjoying this series. I think I’m enjoying this a bit more than The Crown, probably because of the time period and I’ve already lived through and read so much more about QE2 compared to Victoria. Every time I watch an episode, something peaks my interest and I spend about an hour on Wikipedia or other websites comparing the real history to what I’ve just watched. 

Has the show acknowledged that Victoria has siblings from her mother’s previous marriage? Unless I missed it, I find it odd that they haven’t mentioned her half brother or sister at all. 

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I find English history extremely confusing, maybe because there is so much of it!  America is such a young nation in comparison.  But occasionally my curiosity is piqued as well and I do look up some information.  But not too often or it's overwhelming.

2 hours ago, Stacey1014 said:

Has the show acknowledged that Victoria has siblings from her mother’s previous marriage? Unless I missed it, I find it odd that they haven’t mentioned her half brother or sister at all. 

I don't recall it if the siblings were ever mentioned.  I don't believe so.

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On 1/24/2018 at 5:47 AM, Notwisconsin said:

What was interesting, but to some extent left out, was the change in the British Constitution. While it shows that Palmerston Melbourne was a father figure/adolescent crush for Victoria, Robert Peel seems to be a glorified hanger-on, that is until he ORDERS her to attend to go to the hospital and we notice that she does.

I'm not sure when this season ends, but it might be the Peel/Russel transition. At the start of the 19th century, the Prime Minister was basically the King's representative in the Commons, but at the end, the PM was "President of England". If there is a season 4 (assuming season 3 ends with Poor Albert dying), it will bed interesting to see how they treat Victoria's debilitating depression, when she kind of went on strike for years and years, another reason the PM's position had to grow.

I suspect to milk the romance between Victoria and Albert, they'll have Albert die at the end of Season Four.  Season Three could cover the first half of the 1850s, including the Great Exhibition.  At some point soon, they need to start making Victoria heavier and Albert balder.

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We saw "Darkest Hour" with Gary Oldman today and it's quite interesting that having seen two seasons of The Crown, this series, plus other documentaries, how informed the audience was. Afterwards I heard other people referencing this Anglophilic Era that we're going through. (And the luminous Lily James is in it, bringing in the Downton vibe as well.) So much of what happened in the 1930s and 40s is presaged by the family dynamics of Victoria and Albert. I think King George VI may have been the most noble, finest descendant of their Royal family.

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Tonight's Room With a View nekkid bathing, and Victoria's delighted ogling of same, put me in mind of another Disraeli story:

His beloved wife Mary Anne was known to be a ditzy chatterbox.  During a first-time convo with Princess Alice and Queen Vic., Alice was enthusing about the Greco-Roman statues at an exhibition.  

Mary Anne supposedly replied: Sounds great, but you should see Dizzy in his bath.

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Mary Anne supposedly replied: Sounds great, but you should see Dizzy in his bath.

Ha! I remember this scene in the Disraeli miniseries. Also, Mary Anne suggested that when his asthma was giving him trouble and he was trying to give a speech, that he keep a glass of schnapps nearby, because people would think it was water!

And I fell down a Wikipedia rabbit hole last night after watching Ernst be all rude and decadent. The real Ernst married but was childless (some thought it was because he gave his wife an STD), so his heir was Victoria's second son, Alfred, Duke of Edinburgh. (The Prince of Wales, Bertie, had to renounce his claim to the throne).

Alfred was apparently a well-liked prince, and did very well in the Royal Navy. 

He married the daughter of Alexander II of Russia, who caused a stir in the British royal family by claiming he had precedence over the other wives, including the Princess of Wales.  

Alfred & Marina's only son, also named Alfred, got into a scrape with his mistress and shot himself, eventually dying of his wounds. So since Alfred didn't have a son, the Duchy went to his nephew, Prince Charles Edward, who was the son of Victoria's youngest child, Leopold (who died before Charles Edward was born.) The other British princes had renounced their claim to the throne.

Charles Edward moved to the ancestral duchy, and ended up fighting for Germany in WW I, and became a Nazi supporter early in WW II (and was friendly with his cousin, Prince Edward, who of course later abdicated the throne of England, and was also a Nazi sympathizer).

The Duke was stripped of his properties (but kept his titles) and died broke. 

Charles Edward's first son renounced his title for "marrying unequally," his second son was killed in WW II, but his third son, Friedrich, inherited the title. Friedrich married three times, and his son Andreas, from his first marriage, is the current Prince of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha. HIS son, Hubertus Michael has the title of "Hereditary Prince," and is married to a nice American girl, and they have 3 children. The son, Phillipp Hubertus, who turns 3 this year (!) should inherit the title from his father and grandfather!

So: Ernst's line ended with him, and the V&A genes are still in the Saxe-Coburg & Gotha family five generations on...

Edited by kwnyc · Reason: Editing for clarity.
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1 hour ago, kwnyc said:

Ha! I remember this scene in the Disraeli miniseries. 

Yeah.  Amazing, the number of anecdotes and actual historical events make their way into "historical fiction".  Much like what's going on in this series.

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6 hours ago, kwnyc said:

And I fell down a Wikipedia rabbit hole last night after watching Ernst be all rude and decadent.

While you fell down one researching Ernst, I was in one nearby looking up Louis Philippe I and his youngest son Antoine.  Along the way I  discovered the tutor of Louis Philippe, Stéphanie Félicité, comtesse de Genlis, a very interesting woman.

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

Speaking of which, what happened to Inspector Javert? When Al and Vicky went to France didn't that failed revolution depicted in Les Miz take place?

The July Revolution of 1830 put Louis Philippe on the throne.  The June Rebellion took place in 1832, the same year that the future wife of Antoine, the Infanta María Luisa Fernanda of Spain, was born.  They were married in 1846.  I do not know where we are in "mini-series time" but Bertie was born in 1841, so this episode in 1842-ish, maybe.  The February 1848 Revolution will have Louis Philippe abdicating the throne and fleeing to England remaining until his death in 1850.  

As for Javert, you can go here to find out what happens to him (spoilers abound).

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@kwnyc  you would love the book A Fatal Passion by Sullivan.

Just stopping by to say I am reading Royal Babylon by Shaw and am at the chapters with the Hanover curses.

Remember when one of Victoria's Uncle (duke something) wanted his son to woo the Queen?  He said she looked like a hobbit?  Well in the book I am reading one of the Hanover curses is that there were lots of them who looked like hobbits or were dwarfish.  Those Hanovers also had ailment in the area of deformity.................

That is all.

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I'm enjoying this season a lot more then I thought I would. I really didn't like too much of the first season with the Victoria-Melbourne romance and downstairs stuff. I still don't like the downstairs people or Skerritt none of them are really flesh out enough for me to care. They don't do anything with the characters that's interesting. But I'm really liking Victoria and Albert scenes and Albert and Ernest scenes. Albert and Peel. Victoria working and talking to her dog as she worked. Victoria trying to help with the ball and I did love her remark about the Corn Laws. The contrast to the ball and people outside. I liked Victoria decided to hand out the food. The trip to France.  Albert decided to raise the pay for the staff.  

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It kind of bugs me to see Victoria portrayed as so maternal, like she was in the last episode when she was holding Vicky.  My impression was she had little interest in her children until they became teenagers, and started to rely on them more after Albert's death.  That said, I hope as the seasons progress, the kids get to be characters and not shuffled to the background.  They'll grow up quickly -- for instance, by Albert's death, Vicky was 21 and married (and already the mother of Kaiser Bill), Bertie was 20, and Alice 18 years old.

Edited by Brn2bwild
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2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

It kind of bugs me to see Victoria portrayed as so maternal, like she was in the last episode when she was holding Vicky.  My impression was she had little interest in her children until they became teenagers, and started to rely on them more after Albert's death.  That said, I hope as the seasons progress, the kids get to be characters and not shuffled to the background.  They'll grow up quickly -- for instance, by Albert's death, Vicky was 21 and married (and already the mother of Kaiser Bill), Bertie was 20, and Alice 18 years old.

I can see the first 2 having a defined role, but there are so many more to come! I know I won't be able to keep them straight.

Is this series going to show her entire reign? At a year or two per season, it's going to take a long time to get to the 20th century.

Are they planning to recast Victoria like they're doing with Elizabeth?

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10 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

It kind of bugs me to see Victoria portrayed as so maternal, like she was in the last episode when she was holding Vicky.  My impression was she had little interest in her children until they became teenagers, and started to rely on them more after Albert's death.  That said, I hope as the seasons progress, the kids get to be characters and not shuffled to the background.  They'll grow up quickly -- for instance, by Albert's death, Vicky was 21 and married (and already the mother of Kaiser Bill), Bertie was 20, and Alice 18 years old.

I see it more like she can handle them in small doses, and that she prefers being a queen more than a mother. Some people just aren’t baby people. I’m sure that after being gone a few days/weeks in France, she probably did miss her children. 

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My PBS station ran a promo for this, airing Tuesday, February 6:

Hidden Killers of the Victorian Home
An examination of the unseen household perils of the Victorian and Edwardian ages begins with an "innovation" that killed thousands of babies; and a something that turned household havens into ticking bombs.

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On 2/1/2018 at 8:13 AM, Driad said:

My PBS station ran a promo for this, airing Tuesday, February 6:

Hidden Killers of the Victorian Home
An examination of the unseen household perils of the Victorian and Edwardian ages begins with an "innovation" that killed thousands of babies; and a something that turned household havens into ticking bombs.

If you have Amazon Prime the two 3 episode seasons of this are free.

Hidden Killers of the Edwardian and Victorian Home

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On ‎2‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 9:08 AM, Stacey1014 said:

I see it more like she can handle them in small doses, and that she prefers being a queen more than a mother. Some people just aren’t baby people. I’m sure that after being gone a few days/weeks in France, she probably did miss her children. 

In We Two by Gillian Gill, she describes an incident after the birth of Bertie when Vicky became ill, and Albert got all upset at the way the nursery, traditionally the purview of the mother, was being run.  Victoria, in what Gill describes as a typical response, said of course Albert was right, he knew what was best, and she allowed him to determine things from then on.  Gill said from that point Victoria was a mother from a distance when her children were babies and toddlers.  Albert seemed to have very strong ideas about many things, especially in the domestic arena, and I think he was very good at making Victoria feel inadequate as a woman, as a mother, as a queen.  Also Gill makes the point that as the children got older, Albert would engage in activities with them - riding, playing games, ice skating and so on - which were things that Victoria could not participate in because she was so often pregnant or recovering from childbirth.  

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35 minutes ago, Calvada said:

In We Two by Gillian Gill, she describes an incident after the birth of Bertie when Vicky became ill, and Albert got all upset at the way the nursery, traditionally the purview of the mother, was being run.  Victoria, in what Gill describes as a typical response, said of course Albert was right, he knew what was best, and she allowed him to determine things from then on.  Gill said from that point Victoria was a mother from a distance when her children were babies and toddlers.  Albert seemed to have very strong ideas about many things, especially in the domestic arena, and I think he was very good at making Victoria feel inadequate as a woman, as a mother, as a queen.  Also Gill makes the point that as the children got older, Albert would engage in activities with them - riding, playing games, ice skating and so on - which were things that Victoria could not participate in because she was so often pregnant or recovering from childbirth.  

That makes a lot of sense, and explains one reason Victoria had more of a relationship with her children when they were teens or older -- Albert was dead.  (Or in the case of Vicky, Albert couldn't control and micromanage the letters she wrote to Vicky after she was married.)  I hope the show provides more of a glimpse at dour, controlling Albert.  Right now he's still very soft edged, almost like we're seeing him through Victoria's eyes. 

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7 hours ago, magdalene said:

He bitched about losing donations from the Roman Catholics and from what I was told only opened his house as a soup kitchen to Catholics willing to convert. 

Also, getting typhoid is no special badge of honor, plenty of people had that without getting any recognition for it and 

Spoiler

Prince Albert died from it

 

I brought this over from the Faith, Hope and Charity thread and in reference to the info in the spoiler.

While it was the received wisdom at the time (by Albert's Doctors) and has been accepted knowledge for a long time after, there have been medical advances since then that throw doubt on the diagnosis. (note: none of this is proof of another diagnosis, but does a credible job of casting doubt on the typhus diagnosis)

Since that time science has discovered that:

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Transmission. The disease is transmitted by the human body louse, which becomes infected by feeding on the blood of patients with acute typhus fever. Infected lice excrete rickettsia onto the skin while feeding on a second host, who becomes infected by rubbing louse faecal matter or crushed lice into the bite wound.

WHO | Typhus fever (Epidemic louse-borne typhus)

www.who.int/ith/diseases/typhusfever/en/

There's also an article that states that he caught typhus from the palace's sewer system (ironically) but questions have been raised about that as no one else in the palace contracted it.

Further, encyclopedia Britannica states:

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Typhus, series of acute infectious diseases that appear with a sudden onset of headache, chills, fever, and general pains, proceed on the third to fifth day with a rash and toxemia (toxic substances in the blood), and terminate after two to three weeks. Typhus (actually not one illness but a group of closely related diseases) is caused by different species of rickettsia bacteria that are transmitted to humans by lice, fleas, mites, or ticks. The insects are carried person to person or are brought to people by rodents, cattle, and other animals. The most important form of typhus has been epidemic typhus (borne by lice). Other forms are murine, or endemic, typhus (flea-borne); scrub typhus, or tsutsugamushi disease (mite-borne); and tick-borne typhus.

and this:

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Epidemic typhus has also been called camp fever, jail fever, and war fever, names that suggest overcrowding, underwashing, and lowered standards of living.

Which, again, might explain a "high born" person contracting the disease IF they were in the army but does not describe Albert's life in any way.  It does explain why Dr. Traill could/would have come in contact with the offending lice, along with all the innocent but abjectly poor people in Ireland and Great Britain who had no choice but to live in those conditions.

We are certainly aware that many diseases have similar symptoms so it is not difficult to believe that, given the lack of more in depth understanding of the cause of typhus, and given the fact that typhus was an epidemic at the time (and perhaps a little prejudice against the Irish as that was where Albert went to try to convince his son to change his licentious ways) it was a seemingly rational deduction on his doctors' part. (Victoria, for her part, blamed her son - the future King - for acting in such a way that caused Albert to go over there in the first place).

This article, posted on the PBS Newshour site, covers the whole issue better than my attempt.

Current speculations are covered in this excerpt:

Quote

In recent years, physicians have argued over what killed Prince Albert. Apparently, he had a lengthy medical history of intermittent abdominal cramps, occasional intestinal obstruction, anorexia, diarrhea, fatigue and rheumatic joint problems. While some have hypothesized various forms of abdominal cancer (his mother died of stomach cancer at the age of 30), some physicians and historians have argued that Albert may have suffered from either Crohn’s disease or ulcerative colitis, complicated by a perforation of the bowel, sepsis and death. In the end, we will never really know, although we can all agree that poor Albert died prematurely.

I found all of this very interesting.

Edited by Anothermi · Reason: clarity
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My maternal grandmother immigrated solo from County Roscommon to Boston when she was 18, but well past the famine.  Sunday's episode had me going through her old photos and mementos. 

I think religious conversion was desired by both sides, though their methods were probably less than productive.

grandmas2.thumb.jpg.b4f100975c9437a119096ddea38ba491.jpg

 

Seems grandma was a bit of a rebel as well.

grandmas3a.thumb.jpg.3074225b2b10149f325de4ad6d78c5b2.jpg

grandmasUILc.thumb.jpg.f80e99301a03e74cd39260b7676e56fe.jpg

 

I love the Irish half in my family deeply, and there was never a dull moment growing up, but can't deny they ticked all the stereotypical boxes.
Jesus Mary and Joseph, a ton of baggage, a lot of liquor, and could hold a grudge til doomsday.  ;-)

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Typhoid is caused by Salmonelli typhi and is spread by the fecal-oral route. Typhus is caused by Rickettsia prowazekii and is spread by body lice. They are two very different diseases with similar names. I have no idea what killed Albert, but it could have been typhoid fever.

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I wonder when/if they will show Albert gaining weight and losing his hair.  And Victoria is portrayed as being quite slim, which was probably unlikely for someone who was going through multiple pregnancies is quick succession.  

I've been reading lots on Victoria and her family, including We Two, Born to Rule, and am just starting The Last Princess.  Can anyone recommend a good bio of Edward VII?  

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1 hour ago, Calvada said:

I've been reading lots on Victoria and her family, including We Two, Born to Rule, and am just starting The Last Princess.  Can anyone recommend a good bio of Edward VII?  

I found Jane Ridley's The Heir Apparent to be fascinating and quite an easy read..

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There's also Edward and Alexandra written by Richard Hough. 

52 minutes ago, Quiet1ne said:

I found Jane Ridley's The Heir Apparent to be fascinating and quite an easy read..

That was a good one. I really liked it.

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7 hours ago, Quiet1ne said:

I found Jane Ridley's The Heir Apparent to be fascinating and quite an easy read..

Another vote. For someone who was a gigantic disappointment to his parents and spent most of his life pursuing his own pleasures, Edward VII turned out to be a surprisingly effective king.

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10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Another vote. For someone who was a gigantic disappointment to his parents and spent most of his life pursuing his own pleasures, Edward VII turned out to be a surprisingly effective king.

The thing was Edward VII probably wouldn't have spent so much time pursuing his own pleasures if he had been given something to do. Victoria refused to let him do anything. She wouldn't let him help her or anywhere near the government. She wouldn't let him help with the red boxes even though she let her other children help her (the ones who assisted her). He had nothing else to do. Then she'd get mad at him wasting his time on fun. Somehow never seeing her part in the problem. 

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26 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Victoria was a pretty terrible mother in many ways to her children.

She really was. She treated Edward like crap. She forced her three of her daughters to remain with her to take care of her. Purposely finding husbands who were broke so they'd have no choice but live with her instead of on their own. Getting mad and refusing to speak to Beatrice because she wanted to get married. Always trying to control her children even after marriage.  

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The timeline of events, and some of the outright fabrications, are beginning to really bug me.

First of all, V&A visited Scotland for the first time in 1842 before Princess Alice was born.  Also, Ernst married in 1842 and became the Duke of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha in January 1844 upon his and Albert's father's death.

Drummond died at the age of 51(January 1843), before Princess Alice was born (April 1843), too.

Lord Alfred didn't start working as the Queen's Equerry until 1846 and he was 20 years younger than Drummond.  He married in 1847 and went on to have 14 children so I don't know where they came up with this "affair" or what the purpose of throwing that in the story is.

I know this isn't a documentary but it's becoming more and more fictional and less and less historical.

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On 2/10/2018 at 8:57 PM, Calvada said:

I wonder when/if they will show Albert gaining weight and losing his hair.  And Victoria is portrayed as being quite slim, which was probably unlikely for someone who was going through multiple pregnancies is quick succession.  

I've been reading lots on Victoria and her family, including We Two, Born to Rule, and am just starting The Last Princess.  Can anyone recommend a good bio of Edward VII?  

This is what Albert looked like in 1850.  If we don't get some hair loss next season, show...

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2 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

This is what Albert looked like in 1850.  If we don't get some hair loss next season, show...

Our Albert looks like a callow youth compared to the real man. I think the part was terribly mis-cast. And Victoria doesn't seem to have aged at all after her pregnancies. I'm OK with that, because Jenna is just luminous. But Albert? Nope. 

I wonder if Matt Smith would have made a better consort for Jenna/Victoria? 

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40 minutes ago, voiceover said:

As far as the "historical accuracy" of this ep (or even the whole series), I say: If you get your history from the movies (or the tube), you deserve the history you get.  If it intrigues you, crack open a book and find out more about it.  India isn't The Jungle Book, and everything isn't always up-to-date in Kansas City.

(moved for my response to the post)

I agree, I can generally hand wave some creative use of history such as imaging what was going on below stairs.  However, when it comes to established dates, I expect those to be recognized.  For example, it could have just as easily been written that Ernst was married before his father died (fact)) and still see him visit V&A or pine for Harriet (speculation).

The whole Melbourne swooning makes me roll my eyes, messing around with timelines drives me batty.

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On 2/8/2018 at 9:00 PM, Razzberry said:

My maternal grandmother immigrated solo from County Roscommon to Boston when she was 18, but well past the famine.  Sunday's episode had me going through her old photos and mementos. 

I think religious conversion was desired by both sides, though their methods were probably less than productive.

grandmas2.thumb.jpg.b4f100975c9437a119096ddea38ba491.jpg

 

Seems grandma was a bit of a rebel as well.

grandmas3a.thumb.jpg.3074225b2b10149f325de4ad6d78c5b2.jpg

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I love the Irish half in my family deeply, and there was never a dull moment growing up, but can't deny they ticked all the stereotypical boxes.
Jesus Mary and Joseph, a ton of baggage, a lot of liquor, and could hold a grudge til doomsday.  ;-)

My maternal side also came from Roscommon

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28 minutes ago, elle said:

 However, when it comes to established dates, I expect those to be recognized[...]messing around with timelines drives me batty.

I hear ya.  And I don't disagree.

But there's history, and there's 3-act structure, and the former shall always & ever be sacrificed in the service of the latter.

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