S04.E17: The Great Army

[lidarose9]

This is how I took Bjorn and Astrid: they have absolutely nothing in common and have yuuuuge obstacles separating them and that is precisely why they have this THING between them. No, it wasn't foreshadowed, which is how it happens sometimes. He fell into a burning ring of fire. Astrid was trying to pretend it was nothing, but after all that's happened Bjorn is fed up. He wants what he wants. And yes, he absolutely hates himself for it. He was grumpy at dinner cuz he came home to find not only that the lust had not gone away -- it had gotten much, much stronger. So he took it out on the kinda-wife and kids.

I have no great love for the character Astrid myself, but in some ways this development reminds me of when Ragnar met Aslaug. He loved Lagertha and was happily married, but he was completely swept up in his desire for this woman. He didn't do it because he was a dick. Something happened to him and he felt compelled. So he followed what he felt. Bjorn is having that same experience.

Also, I totally think Lagertha expected that confrontation at the feast and she was more than ready. She would have kicked their asses. It would have been Suicide By Lagertha.

[bluvelvet]

Yeah Lagertha would have killed two of Ragnarssons. I do wonder if that happened if the other two brothers would have avenged Ubbe. I don't see them doing it for Ivar. 

If they had succeeded in killing Lagertha, then Bjorn would have to kill them and I assume the others brothers may try to avenge Ubbe and it would be the end Ragnarsons 

[Captanne]

I really enjoyed this episode, too.  I was a bit taken aback by the chariot -- only because I have such vivid memories of the poor old Vikings schlepping those boats across some long cliffside on cut-down trees.  I couldn't believe Floki didn't have the WHEEL in his repertoire.  

I have yet to go back and see if carts are used in the booming metropolis of Kattegat but -- why did they use those arduous (and heavy duty labour intensive) trees to roll the boats from the cliff if they could have just trailered them?  I remember asking that at the time.  

When the chariot arrived I was kind of shocked.  Not so much by the chariot itself (after their trip to Morocco) but the idea that the wheel is there and no one seems to care.

Why didn't the Master Inventor build Ivar a wheeled transportation device AGES ago?

Edited January 15, 2017 by Captanne

[Sakura12]

It's funny that besides Ivar, Aslaug's sons don't seem that upset over her death. Sigurd and Hvitserk were like eh, she wasn't a great mother and Ubbe just seem to think he needed to fulfill his duty as a son. Only Ivar really cares about getting revenge. If any of them are going to kill her, I'd want it to be Magnus when he's older so I can still Lagertha on this show. 

Bjorn and Astrid, why? She's such a useless character. I'd rather see Torvi being Lagertha's confidant. And Bjorn's a terrible father. For all of Ragnar's faults, he did love his kids. 

[Haleth]

The thing I loved most about Ragnar was his intellectual curiosity, followed by his love for his children. Or maybe it was the way Fimmel acted with the children. Too bad Bjorn didn't inherit that quality.  Perhaps his attraction to Astrid will be like the slave girl from last week-- something that doesn't come up again.  Besides, unless Astrid is going to England Bjorn will have more important things to think about than women.  Hirst can rethink putting them together over the break.

[Babalooie]

Problem is, Hirst can't rethink putting them together over the break because they film about a year ahead of airing time.  I read that Ragnar's death scene took three hours to film on a cold Irish Winter day a year ago.

[Ohwell]

That's too bad.  I just hope whatever it is between Bjorn and Astrid is over and done with quickly.

[BitterApple]

4 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

It's funny that besides Ivar, Aslaug's sons don't seem that upset over her death. Sigurd and Hvitserk were like eh, she wasn't a great mother and 

I thought Hvitserk's reaction was the best. He was all like, "Oh, she's dead? That's a shame, when's dinner?".

[green]

21 hours ago, lidarose9 said:

This is how I took Bjorn and Astrid: they have absolutely nothing in common and have yuuuuge obstacles separating them and that is precisely why they have this THING between them. No, it wasn't foreshadowed, which is how it happens sometimes. He fell into a burning ring of fire. Astrid was trying to pretend it was nothing, but after all that's happened Bjorn is fed up. He wants what he wants. ...

 

Except Hirst said in his interview after the episode aired that Bjorn wanted to take Astrid away from Lagertha to show he was no longer in his mother's shadow and wanted to show he was the stronger and more dominate of the two now.  It was all about his mother and nothing really to do with Astrid herself in other words.

10 hours ago, Captanne said:

I really enjoyed this episode, too.  I was a bit taken aback by the chariot -- only because I have such vivid memories of the poor old Vikings schlepping those boats across some long cliffside on cut-down trees.  I couldn't believe Floki didn't have the WHEEL in his repertoire.  

I have yet to go back and see if carts are used in the booming metropolis of Kattegat but -- why did they use those arduous (and heavy duty labour intensive) trees to roll the boats from the cliff if they could have just trailered them?  I remember asking that at the time.  

When the chariot arrived I was kind of shocked.  Not so much by the chariot itself (after their trip to Morocco) but the idea that the wheel is there and no one seems to care.

Why didn't the Master Inventor build Ivar a wheeled transportation device AGES ago?

Well giant Viking boats could not be lifted onto axed-hewed trailers.  They were way to heavy for a primitive wheeled trailer to support and way too complicated to build on the fly.  OTOH logs distributed the weight beautifully, didn't crash to the ground since they already were on the ground and were way easier to use too.  Just fell some trees, cut off the branches and roll into place. 

And yes the Vikings knew about the wheel.  Remember the scene where Ivar was pulled around in a cart as a young kid.  It was from inside his little cart that he reached out and killed that other kid.  His very first blood letting.

And years before Ivar's birth they certainly saw a lot of carts in England during Ragnar's first raids against King Aelle.  A huge cart was loaded up with the fake ransom and hauled outside his camp when Aelle's men made their lack luster surprise attack.

[Captanne]

Thanks, green.  I still don't understand why Ivar has been slithering around all this time.  As an adult of some social stature (which he is and has been), I would think wheels would have been in order long before this.  I'm surprised Auslaug didn't insist.

Certainly would have made Ragnar's walk to Wessex easier.

Edited January 17, 2017 by Captanne

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Is There Anything Vikings's Ivar Won't Pitch A Fit About?

And more questions sparked by 'The Great Army'!

[ghoulina]

21 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I thought Hvitserk's reaction was the best. He was all like, "Oh, she's dead? That's a shame, when's dinner?".

Yea, Hvitserk had just come back from seeing the world, traveling further than any Norseman had done before. And the woman who let him nearly drown is dead?Meh. Small potatoes.

Edited January 16, 2017 by ghoulina

[green]

8 hours ago, Captanne said:

Thanks, green.  I still don't understand why Ivar has been slithering around all this time.  As an adult of some social stature (which he is and has been), I would think wheels would have been in order long before this.  I'm surprised Auslaug didn't insist.

Certainly would have made Ragnar's walk to Wessix easier.

I would say those two questions have more to do with elements of TV drama than with basic physics.  :-)

[millennium]

I find Ivar loathsome.   He has the countenance of a snake and the crawling around doesn't do anything to dispel that image.   He has no outstanding qualities other than his madness and psychotic willpower.   Not a hero, not an antihero, just a recurring annoyance throughout the episode.   It makes sense that the only one he feels true kinship with is Floki, my other most hated character.

The show seems rudderless now.    I don't know where it's going; worse, it feels like the writers don't either.

[green]

On 1/13/2017 at 9:36 AM, Evagirl said:

Thanks Babalooie!  Sometimes the scenes are so dark I can't make out everything going on, especially if I have a light on.  My grandmother ingrained me that watching TV in the dark will make me blind, so I never did but I still can't see - go figure - LOL!

I'm sure your grandmother is a fine lady but any show is better with low lighting.  Makes it like being at a movie theatre.  And you can see stuff as well.  :-)

As to where the show is going, millennium, that is easy.  The writer singular (only Hirst writes every episode) knows exactly where he is going.  He is following the stream of history.

Edited January 17, 2017 by green

[BitterApple]

18 hours ago, millennium said:

 

The show seems rudderless now.    I don't know where it's going; worse, it feels like the writers don't either.

I knew there'd be some rough patches after Ragnar's death, but I agree that the writing feels a bit...aimless. The aborted Mediterranean raid was pointless as is Ubbe marrying a slave girl who banged all his brothers, as is Bjorn's sudden interest in Astrid. I miss the old days when we were treated to the clash of cultures, religious and philosophical differences etc., not this soap opera nonsense. I thought we were going to see a lot more with the Spanish raid. Instead they just slaughtered a few villagers, picked up a case of oranges, grabbed a stray child and bailed. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by BitterApple

[gwhh]

I wonder if its common knowledge that Astrid & Lagatera are hooking up every night?   

You notice every time the males sons of RL get together.  They all argue about the same 3 things. Who owns wants. Who bangs what woman and how crazy ivar is.  And how scary he is. 

Edited January 18, 2017 by gwhh

[green]

3 hours ago, BitterApple said:

... I thought we were going to see a lot more with the Spanish raid. Instead they just slaughtered a few villagers, picked up a case of oranges, grabbed a stray child and bailed. 

Think of this as more a prelude than an end to something.  On every viking's "to do" list there is a priority in this order:

1.  Revenge first and foremost, then ...

2.  Find your own name and fame and glory

Edited January 18, 2017 by green

[Spiderella2]

On 1/12/2017 at 4:16 PM, BitterApple said:

I might actually co-sign that. I feel like Helga's character has run its' course.

We all need to remember this post so when it happens we can give you proper credit for calling it.

I don't think Helga is going to die this season, or any time soon. She is Micheal Hirst's daughter after all. Her part wasn't even supposed to be a major part, but the actress brought so much life into it, that Hirst was compelled to feature her more. She probably will outlive all the major characters. 

On 1/13/2017 at 10:57 AM, slf said:

It's cool that the actors playing Ragnar's sons have all worked a bit of Fimmel's mannerisms into their performances, and historically, yes, Bjorn and the others were known for being the sons of Ragnar. But the show's emphasis on that all the time is starting to grate. Either Ubbe, Ivar, Sigurd, or Hvirtsik (?) mentions it at least once an episode. At least two or three of them would become famous and respected in their own right. The show needs to let each boy breathe a bit more, and be more than just Ragnar's son. Outside of whether or not to avenge their mother, you wouldn't know any of them was Aslaug's son. There's no interest in showing her influence which is weird because she's the only parent they were consistently around. In fact, Ivar's personality makes a lot more sense when you consider that Floki would've been his primary male influence.

The same for Bjorn. Of all the actors playing a son of Ragnar, I think he's done the best at working in Fimmel's mannerisms (during the invasion of Paris he sort of flicked his hands to signal an attack and it was pitch perfect) while still making Bjorn his own person. But you don't see much of Lagertha's influence anymore. Which I don't like given she raised him more than Ragnar.

I don't want to see these actors aping Fimmel all the time. In small doses it works and makes sense, Ragnar was their father and a major influence, but they are their mother's sons and also different from either of their parents. I feel like the writing hasn't embraced that.

So thanks to this show I've been reading a lot of Viking sagas and history. The show is being very authentic to how Vikings lived.

Sex was a part of life, to them as essential as eating and breathing. And in this culture, Bjorn isn't cheating with Astrid, it's just sex. To us it seems strange, but to them, he is just being a virile man. Consensual sex is permissible (even outside the bounds of marriage), owners can have sex with slaves whenever they wanted, and virginity/Chastity was only coveted by women in a certain class (gently bred ladies) who's families planned to wed them off for upward mobility. 

Bjorn never married Torvi because she was already married, right? He called her "Mother of my children", which I thought was very sweet. A hug would have been nice. <spoiler> Especially since the Great Army ends up being gone for 14 years. <\spoiler>

A woman can get a divorce but only under 3 conditions. Infidelity is actually not one of those conditions. 

The women managed the home, food,  raising children, weaving, the marketplace, and production. The men sought glory, fame, power and riches. Because of Bjorn's tumultuous childhood, no wonder he's cold. I thought he would be more loving and affectionate towards his kids. Like Ubbe is with his kids. Perhaps he just doesn't know how. He never got the warm and fuzzy Ragnar that the other bros did. By then, he was already at Hedeby watching his mom get slapped around. So he can only do what he knows. His mind is on his legacy & fame, just like Ragnar was. 

I also concur that the Ragnar sons have picked up some of his mannerisms. Just brief Ragnar flashes here and there. They also have different aspects of Ragnar's character. Ivar his ruthlessness, Ubbe, his people watching, Bjorn his battle prowess and strategic thinking, Hvitserk his humor, Sigurd, tenderness (could be other way around, I ...still can't tell those last 2 apart.)

Edited January 19, 2017 by Spiderella2
Found the answer to my question

[Spiderella2]

Remember last season, when Torvi's estranged spouse kept the child in Hedeby, and Lagertha promised Torvi she would look after the child as if it was her own.---- Is that who Astrid is? Because if so, that would be so crazy that Bjorn would then have sex with his stepdaughter. Or even Lagertha having sex with her foster daughter. Well, maybe not Viking crazy, but real world nuts. 

[PatsyandEddie]

^^Torvi had a son with her first husband, Jarl Borg. His name is Guthrum and we saw him at the table with the smaller boys. He is about 10. 

[green]

15 hours ago, Spiderella2 said:

Bjorn never married Torvi because she was already married, right? He called her "Mother of my children", which I thought was very sweet. A hug would have been nice.

No, she was married past tense.  Her first husband Ragnar blood eagled as your recall.  Jarl Borg.  And PatsyandEddie is right that Guthrum is a product of that marriage.

Her second marriage was to King Horik's only surviving son, Erlunder.  She shot him dead during the ship portage in France with his own crossbow when he threatened to kill Guthrum unless she killed Bjorn for him.  So she saved Bjorn's life.

She and Bjorn are totally free to marry and the implication was they did.  I was very surprised they hadn't.

[ghoulina]

9 hours ago, green said:

She and Bjorn are totally free to marry and the implication was they did.  I was very surprised they hadn't.

No kidding. She shot her husband to save you, you can't make it official?