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S04.E14: In the Uncertain Hour Before the Morning


formerlyfreedom
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It seems like the general consensus from viewers on the Vikings FB is that Ragnar denied Magnus to protect him, but that makes no sense to me. Magnus basically got thrown to the wolves. The odds of survival aren't in his favor and I can't imagine Ragnar's name carries that much weight in England, especially considering the last Viking settlement was wiped out twenty years before. Ragnar's dead either way, so what leverage would Ecbert have by using Magnus? Ivar is the far more valuable son. 

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Well that sucked. Lagertha is the worst. I don't even like Aslaug that much but I'm glad she got to show everyone that Lagertha is a petty, jealous coward whose word can't be trusted. I'm not a historian so I could be totally wrong about how viking politics work but I'm pretty sure that they still sign treaties and trade agreements and peace negotations and stuff. In the early seasons, Ragnar went to broker peace between King Horik and Jarl Borg so I assume that Lagertha will also have to make agreements with other leaders. Why would they ever agree to anything with her when they know that she will tell them whatever they want to hear and then stab them in the back (almost literally) the second they lower their guard? I'm also curious what the Seer will say the next time she goes to him for help. Aslaug definitely was a true believer. I don't think the Seer's going to be okay with her murder. 

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Still team Lagertha. Maybe this is some long-planned heel turn, but imo when Lagertha is pissed she is pissed, she doesn't hide it. Her calm, measured, denunciations of Aslaug as the Evil Witch who Bewitched Her Husband sounds like politics at it's finest. There was literally noting in KW's delivery that makes me thinks Lagertha believes it for a second. Imo, she's simply consolidating power.

Lagertha has to do two things asap 1) establish her stewardship of Kattegat as righteous and 2) establish Bjorn as the as the rightful son of Ragnar. She has to accomplish this while not undercutting Ragnar's judgement, which is essential in validating her family's rule in the first place. Painting Aslaug as an evil conniving witch accomplishes all these things. Ragnar's not responsible because he has been bewitched. Aslaug's sons are not to be trusted because they are witch-born bastards. And do you let a witch leave as she wishes with safe passage? No, you kill her. Calling her a witch over and over again feeds into Aslaug's own smug belief in her "visions" and will revive memories of Harbard who is correlated with misery for a fair-number of the childbearing women of Kattegat. 

I think Lagertha spent so much time angsting in the hills of her earldom because she would have to slander Aslaug's entire legacy to take Kattegat back. The fighting is not what gets to Lagertha, it's always been the politics. 

Couldn't figure out if Aethelwhatever was trying to get Magnus killed or help him. The "animals in the villa" comment made me think maybe he was trying to give the kid a headstart before Ecbert disposed of him. But then he told Magnus to announce everywhere he's the son of Ragnar, which sounds like a one way ticket to being butchered to pieces. Wait...maybe Magnus has been kept in secret? Maybe the son was cutting Magnus loose to make sure he bleats far and wide that Ecbert has been hiding the son of their most evil of enemies, forcing his father's hand in his judgement of Ragnar? Either way, you knew Ecbert was going to murder that nasty loose end once he knew for sure it wasn't his bestie Ragnar's son. Ragnar and Ecbert have such a strange relationship, the acting in those scenes was fantastic!

Edited by rozen
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This is the first time in a long time that a) I feel Michael Hirst has (and has always had) a master plan, and b) I have no idea what's coming next. It's a good feeling.

However you feel about Aslaug, you have to admit she had the upper hand in that confrontation with Lagertha; if not simply in the dignified/moral sense. And Lagertha - I'm afraid you've just dug your own grave. 

Not quite getting the Astrid hate. According to interviews she's supposed to look modern to represent the changing Viking world (sure, it's not an idea that's working, but at least it's on purpose) and I like how the actress is playing her: keeping her cards close to her chest and attempting to help Ragnar's sons even as she remains loyal to Lagertha. 

On 22/12/2016 at 4:28 PM, Silverglitter said:

And I'm fine with that because she's right up there with Judith and Yidu in characters I never saw the point in.

Judith was an essential component in the creation of Alfred. She (and now her son) was Ragnar/Ecbert's last living link to Athelstan. 

Ragnar/Ecbert: damn those two are good together. 

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1 hour ago, rozen said:

Still team Lagertha. Maybe this is some long-planned heel turn, but imo when Lagertha is pissed she is pissed, she doesn't hide it. Her calm, measured, denunciations of Aslaug as the Evil Witch who Bewitched Her Husband sounds like politics at it's finest. There was literally noting in KW's delivery that makes me thinks Lagertha believes it for a second. Imo, she's simply consolidating power.

Lagertha has to do two things asap 1) establish her stewardship of Kattegat as righteous and 2) establish Bjorn as the as the rightful son of Ragnar. She has to accomplish this while not undercutting Ragnar's judgement, which is essential in validating her family's rule in the first place. Painting Aslaug as an evil conniving witch accomplishes all these things. Ragnar's not responsible because he has been bewitched. Aslaug's sons are not to be trusted because they are witch-born bastards. And do you let a witch leave as she wishes with safe passage? No, you kill her. Calling her a witch over and over again feeds into Aslaug's own smug belief in her "visions" and will revive memories of Harbard who is correlated with misery for a fair-number of the childbearing women of Kattegat. 

I think Lagertha spent so much time angsting in the hills of her earldom because she would have to slander Aslaug's entire legacy to take Kattegat back. The fighting is not what gets to Lagertha, it's always been the politics. 

 

I hope this is the reasoning behind Lagertha's actions and that it gets revealed later because her sudden insistence that Aslaug stole her man is at odds with how she's acted since Aslaug showed up at Kattegat visibly pregnant.

In the previous episodes it seemed to me that Lagertha knew Ragnar wasn't coming back and with Bjorn away for years it's the perfect time to stage her coup. She even forces Aslaug to admit that her visions aren't 100% certain in front of an audience, creating even more doubt in the former Queen's legacy. My only problem is that she shot Aslaug in the back after promising her safe passage and Aslaug smiling about that makes me suspicious.

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Brilliant -- even moreso.  They are on an amazing trajectory.

Everyone has mentioned Athelstan, Alfred, Ragnar, and Ecbert so I won't comment except to say I miss Athelstan as much as Ragnar and Ecbert do.  I loved that Ragnar gave everyone agency but admitted it weighs on his conscience.

I have no problem with Lagertha's action with Auslag and completely saw what folks here talk about -- with the Viking Secret Code between the two women.  Auslaug got what she wanted and probably a vastly better end than Lagertha can expect.

Most of this season has been the elderberries manipulating their own deaths (exits) and Ecbert even expressly complains to Ragnar about the Viking obsession with their own death.  (As far as Ragnar is concerned, there are only death and women in this world -- as opposed to our more cynical death and taxes.  LOL)  

So, good on ya Auslaug and (as I'm sure she tossed mentally over her shoulder), good luck to you, Lagertha in the death department.

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19 hours ago, Paradigm14 said:

Could Auslaug have cared most about Ivar because she beleived he was touched or changed in some way by Habard?

I've thought it was partly his physical disability and Aslaug defining herself and her place in history through her motherhood.  He was the child almost killed in infancy, who would likely have the roughest time of it in life.  I think, at least at first, she just didn't see the others as needing her in the intense way that Ivar did.  

The more focused she became on Ivar, the less attention she paid the other boys.  Not only would that make her relationship with Ivar stronger, simply because he was her focus, but, well, kids notice stuff like that.  It would change how they interacted with her, and Ivar, and just sort of spiraled.

(At least, that's my theory.)

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I'm looking forward to how Ivar is physically portrayed leading an army of warriors.  It appears he can't sit up straight unless he has back support as they showed him lying across a horse when he was captured.  Perhaps they'll make some sort of stabilizer that will enable him to sit on a horse.  From the show Real Vikings that came on after Vikings, they said that history notes that Ivar was pretty much the most feared of all of Ragnar's sons.

In any event, they have a lot of material to work with to keep the show fresh for several more seasons.  At first I didn't think the show could survive without Ragnar.  Now I'm anxious to see what happens after Ragnar.

I went back and watched some of the 1st season again to get a look at Althestan.  They actually found a kid who looks a lot like the adult actor to play his son.  So I'm not surprised Ragnar recognized him.

I hope Magnus survives.

I hope Signard Snake in the Eye will get rid of the 1980's mullet, and grow a backbone.

Edited by Evagirl
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Was anyone else a little -- taken aback by Astrid's "I want to change your look" comment?  I felt like I was suddenly on Vikings:  Project Runway.  Perhaps it was the way the actress delivered the line?  It was startlingly modern, and I don't mean that in a good way.

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Was anyone else a little -- taken aback by Astrid's "I want to change your look" comment?

We were all thinking it. 

The hair!

I don't think the show needed Astrid. It would have been cooler if Lagertha were single.

They have set the viewer up to dislike this little Sig shit, but I find him interesting. He doesn't quite do or think what I expect him to.  He's quite contrary. I didn't realise which one he was as a kid, but I remember now.

I'm also tired of the slave being used and abused by everyone. I know it's what would really happen, but it's hard to watch. Leave her the fuck alone all of you!

I found that this episode had a lot of ambiguity. What did Astrid mean by that?  What was Aethelwulf about? He is both good and bad at times, so I don't get him.  I feel that he really needed to make Magnus go and quickly. Why? There is more to that I didn't quite comprehend.  I think Ragnar was lying about not having sex with his mother (ostensibly to protect him), but it got the kid thrown to the wolves.

What was really going down with Lagertha and Aslaug? The unspoken stuff wasn't satisfying to the viewer, nor were the words.  It wasn't powerful enough or well-written enough or something.   These adversaries needed a more climatic showdown. It seems neither got the upper hand. 

However, Lagertha seemed satisfied...best served cold indeed. (TMI I once got revenge myself -nothing to that extreme though. Revenge is supposed to be ultimately disappointing, but I found that it filled me with the warm and sated feeling that produced the look Lagertha had after she'd done it and that feeling hasn't dissipated).  I'm not much sure that Lagertha cares about the fallout. This was the goal and she's achieved it. 

I will say that Aslaug looked very regal.  I never warmed to her, but she did seem motherly and I genuinely liked her when she rescued baby Ives...then at other times, she was not maternal at all. Her sick love of Ivar was interesting and uncomfortable to watch. I was wondering where they were going with her visions (and that connection thing she had with Floki), and then she just died anyway.  Not cut up to see her go though. She wasn't overly talented at acting.

Great episode. I could watch it again to get the stuff I'd missed and relish the scenes a bit more. I love that Ragnar is trying to orchestrate his own death.

Oh, and did I mention that the episode was very bromantic?

I was reticent about the time jump, but I have really enjoyed this season so far.

Edited by insubordination
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That conversation between Ragnar and Ecbert was brilliantly acted.  Two old frenemies coming to the end of their lives, wondering what it all meant, wondering what's next, sharing memories of someone they both loved.  Probably my favorite scene of the series.  (At least lately.)  It certainly feels as if Ragnar is ready to meet his fate.  What was that he said about a prophesy about being seen by a blind man?  That's the first we've heard of that (as far as I can remember.)

Ecbert speculating about killing Ivar.  Man, if you had only done that you would have saved England a whole lot of trouble.  And lives.

Poor Magnus.  Funny thing is that if Ragnar isn't his father, Aethelwulf probably is. (Didn't he and Queen Crazypants have sex?)  And he just kicked his kid out of the castle, while Alfred (who isn't his son) gets treated like a prince.

I don't really care about Lagertha killing Aslaug.  All the action in Kattegat made me impatient to get back to Wessex.

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In SoapOperaLand, jumping children in age is common.  Usually happens between "cute toddler for Christmas episodes" to "young teen for maximum dramatic angst."

It's called "Soap Opera Rapid Aging Syndrome" or SORAS (it covers all word types -- one is "sorassed" or "the producers are sorassing Felicity".)  Unfortunately it is formally pronouced "sore-ass".  Yeah.  Too bad about that but(t) it is what it is.

When I saw Ragnar's sons older, I immediately said, "Oh.  They were sorassed."

Edited by Captanne
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This was a slower episode, but it's setting things up, so I didn't mind. And I always really enjoy the interactions between Ragnar and Ecbert. There is such chemistry between those two! They play off of each other very nicely. I love a complicated relationship, and that's what you have between the two kings. There is so much respect there, but they're enemies for all intents and purposes. I love watching Ragnar when he is being so incredibly cunning, and setting up his ending just as HE wants it. 

Aethelwulf is still an ass. Poor Magnus. (Weird sentence for me to type, those are both of my sons' middle names!)

Not enough Ivar this episode. 

Too much Sigurd and Ubbe. Sigurd, especially, annoys me. 

I'm not sure what to think about Lagertha and Aslaug. I understand WHY she killed her. Aslaug is sharp and ruthless, and if she had just let her go, I doubt that would have been the end of her. In that world, you didn't leave your enemies behind. But to shoot her in the back like that, that was the cowards way to do it. It made for a shocking TV moment, but it kind of tainted Lagertha a bit in my eyes. 

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On 12/21/2016 at 9:24 PM, magdalene said:

Aslaug got a beautiful funeral.

Except for the horse's head. My husband told me that's a major sign of disrespect? 

 

On 12/21/2016 at 9:50 PM, FlowerofCarnage said:

 

I love Lagertha but I hate this storyline.  It's cheap and cliche to have her wait 20 years to get revenge on the "other woman" especially when in earlier seasons, she and Aslaug had seemed to come to an understanding. Lagertha appeared to accept that Ragnar was to have more sons but not with her  and that her destiny lay elswhere.

 

Yes. And the whole, "She's a witch, she tricked him" is such crap, considering how smart and cunning Ragnar is. He is not the type to be duped by the wiles of a woman. Ragnar felt he was destined to have more sons and sought out someone who could provide him with that. He never even sent Lagertha away. She chose to leave. Although, I don't blame her one pit and I had great pity for her then, but Ragnar was completely responsible for his actions. And, while I never liked Aslaug, I did appreciate the "peace" the two women seem to have come to. 

 

On 12/21/2016 at 11:32 PM, green said:

And good riddance to Aslaug.  No one believed she would just walk away and not plot revenge with her sons.  She didn't deserve a warrior's death so it was as good a way as any to dispatch someone who wasn't respected.

I don't think Aslaug deserved much of anything. But I'm of the mind that how you treat others says something about how YOU are, not who they are. In my mind, it just made Lagertha look bad. 

 

On 12/21/2016 at 11:49 PM, Advance35 said:

Ragnar totally knows that his Son's will never allow England any peace once he is dead.   

It's kind of interesting, because none of his sons, save Ivar, wanted to come with him to England. By orchestrating his death the way he is, he's kind of setting them up to HAVE to end up there, to avenge him. 

 

On 12/22/2016 at 0:36 AM, BitterApple said:

Magnus getting tossed out on his ass was brutal. I mean, damn, they couldn't have gotten the kid an apprenticeship within city walls? How the hell is a sheltered boy going to survive on his own out in the countryside with barely enough food to last a week? Poor thing didn't even get a horse to make the journey easier.

What's worse is, Aethelwulf told him to let everyone he encounters know that he is the son of Ragnar Lothbrok. Like that would HELP him, when in reality - it will end up doing quite the opposite. 

 

22 hours ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

To add to Aslaug's crimes against people named Siggy, don't forget the time adult Siggy died saving her sons because she was too busy getting busy with Harbard.

Thank you. That was the minute when I knew my hate for her would never be overturned. 

 

21 hours ago, green said:

Meanwhile Ivar bonded with his father in a few short weeks more than he ever did with his mother.  He is no longer a momma's boy. 

Agree. I think Ivar might even come to really resent his mother for coddling him the way she did. I think he appreciates how gruff and real Ragnar is with him. 

 

19 hours ago, Ocean Chick said:

Let's look at life through Aslaug's eyes.  She knows she can't physically fight Lagertha - as she stated, Aslaug is neither her mother nor father in that aspect.  She knows that Ragnar no longer loves her.  Her sons are grown and no longer need her.  She's had her moment in the sun, and has earned her place in history and myth as the mother of most of Ragnar's sons.  What's left for her, once Lagertha deposes her?  To grow old and die, alone and unloved?  To die at the hands of strangers or animals while trying to live life as a beggar and outcast?  At least this way she gets her Viking funeral and a chance for a good life in the afterlife.  And as we've seen, that afterlife is very important to the Vikings.  Remember the old guy who wanted to die in battle, just so he had a chance at Valhalla?  Dying peacefully of old age was not seen as a good thing for Vikings.

Wow. This is beautifully stated and now I am looking at Aslaug's death in a different way. It is very true that the Norse people wanted a good story, a good ending. This would have been much preferable to shriveling away of old age, a forgotten wife of a long dead king. Now I'm almost seeing what transpired as more of that "understanding" between the two women. I just wish they would have left the "you stole my man!" shit out of it. 

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As for throwing Magnus out -- I know the weather was terrible and he's a frightened kid -- but there was something else going on in that narrative.  I agree with others who mentioned that Ragnar's denial was slightly unconvincing.  I'm unaware of the history of an English Magnus but it would not surprise me at all to see him turn up again carrying a big bag of resentments and Viking DNA to back it up.

ETA:  Anyone who has seen the Godfather knows a horse's head is usually unwelcome (especially in the bed with you) but I'm not sure that tracks with what we saw in Auslaug's Viking funeral.  The horse that was beheaded and sent with her to Valhalla was more of a ritual sacrifice, wasn't it?  That didn't look at all derogatory.  The entire sequence of funeral preparation and enactment seemed very, very reverential.

BTW, A quick Google search gives a lot of examples of horses included in Viking funerals.

I did find this, however.  

Nidstang (Nithing Pole)

 Nidstang means, literally, “curse pole.” The nidstang (sometimes called a “Nithing” or “niding” pole) is an ancient Scandinavian custom of formally cursing or hexing someone. A wooden pole or stake was inscribed with the intended consequence and erected with a ceremony.

A horse’s head or carcass was placed atop the pole in the facing in the direction one wished to send the curse. Today, the nidstang is more likely to be virtual- an internet curse accompanied by a virtual horse’s head (I’m sure the horses are relieved).

 

But, still, the show's presentation of the head doesn't seem to be intending that, especially because there was no pole.  (I guess it would help to take a look and see exactly who left the head.  On the other hand, it was done very overtly in a clearly reverential ceremony.)

Edited by Captanne
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And whoever his father is, Magnus is still the heir to Mercia.  If he rallies the Mercians to revolt against Wessex it would be a problem for Aethelwulf.  (Assuming Aethelwulf succeeds Ecbert.)

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19 minutes ago, Captanne said:

But, still, the show's presentation of the head doesn't seem to be intending that, especially because there was no pole.  (I guess it would help to take a look and see exactly who left the head.  On the other hand, it was done very overtly in a clearly reverential ceremony.)

Entire horses were often buried with people; it was like being buried with your treasures. It was the head by itself, that really stood out to my husband. He did mention curses, so I bet he was probably thinking about the Nidstang. I would agree with you that the ceremony as a whole did look very respectful, so I'm wondering if it was maybe something that just got mixed up by production. They're usually bang on with the religious portrayals in this show, but the horse HEAD during a burial seemed off to us. 

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18 hours ago, magdalene said:

Next season this show will look completely different.

I think they will keep around a few of these characters starting with Lagertha.  To lose both Ragnar and Lagertha going into Season 5 is a bit much and someone has to stay in Scandinavia while Ragnar's sons sail off seeking revenge.  I think Lagertha will stay around until at least Bjorn returns.  I could be wrong but that is my guess and Bjorn has a LONG voyage ahead of him yet.

17 hours ago, taurusrose said:

 I thought Magnus was Athelwulf's kid.  Wasn't he screwing around with Princess Crazy Pants?

See last answer below.  Magnus was definitely NOT fathered by Aethelwulf.

12 hours ago, Rockstar99435 said:

Well that sucked. Lagertha is the worst. I don't even like Aslaug that much but I'm glad she got to show everyone that Lagertha is a petty, jealous coward whose word can't be trusted. I'm not a historian so I could be totally wrong about how viking politics work but I'm pretty sure that they still sign treaties and trade agreements and peace negotations and stuff. In the early seasons, Ragnar went to broker peace between King Horik and Jarl Borg so I assume that Lagertha will also have to make agreements with other leaders. Why would they ever agree to anything with her when they know that she will tell them whatever they want to hear and then stab them in the back (almost literally) the second they lower their guard? I'm also curious what the Seer will say the next time she goes to him for help. Aslaug definitely was a true believer. I don't think the Seer's going to be okay with her murder. 

Ragnar also made individual deals with both Horik and Jarl Borg as well.  How did they turn out? 

Well he did indeed betray Jarl Borg.  He invited him to be his guest in Kattegat prior to another planned raid as a successful set-up to killing him Blood Eagle style.  And this was as revenge for Borg betraying him earlier by taking Kattegat.  So both men broke the agreement though Borg did it first.

Horik intended to kill Ragnar during his visit to Kattegat but Ragnar got wind and killed him first.  This is politics as usual and good for Lagertha being sharp like Ragnar and getting rid of the enemy first. And by that I mean Aslaug has no intention of seeing Ragnar's first born, Bjorn, take over Kattegat over her own rugrats.  What Lagertha did was not just for her but also her one heir in Bjorn I believe.

Lagertha will gain MORE respect for her move among other Vikings, not less.  If she let Aslaug walk she would have been seen as weak and vulnerable. 

Nothing changes in history.  More treaties are always broken than upheld.  And Vikings value the bold and strong over mere treaties anyway.  Slaying Aslaug makes her now the rightful ruler of Kattegat.  Letting her go would have left the ultimate ruler-ship in doubt. 

4 hours ago, Captanne said:

Was anyone else a little -- taken aback by Astrid's "I want to change your look" comment?  I felt like I was suddenly on Vikings:  Project Runway.  Perhaps it was the way the actress delivered the line?  It was startlingly modern, and I don't mean that in a good way.

Yes really weird comment.  If she keeps this stuff up she will be worse for the show than the Chinese woman.

 I like Sigurd's hair myself.  It is natural if braided here and there.  I always had trouble with the Ragnar/Bjorn etc looks with half shaven skulls and some long hair and some short hair all mixed together.  Kind of a crazy quilt look.  Sigurd's is consistent at least.  Maybe more Middle Earth but hey I like Lord of the Rings.

I also like Sigurd more as he is turning out to be the more practical aka cunning one.  Ubbe was totally out of control and owes Lagertha his life after his little axe wielding temper tantrum in the longhouse.  Sigurd stepped back and assessed the situation and stayed rational.

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Poor Magnus.  Funny thing is that if Ragnar isn't his father, Aethelwulf probably is. (Didn't he and Queen Crazypants have sex?)  And he just kicked his kid out of the castle, while Alfred (who isn't his son) gets treated like a prince.

Aethelwulf didn't have sex with her until way after Magnus was born.  Remember Crazy and Magnus were under siege in that tower and Aethelwulf rode to the rescue and saved both her and Magnus from the other Mercian faction. 

He didn't get around to having sex with her until she was rescued, brought back to the Wessex Villa, the Mercians were defeated, she became Queen and then, after some time, reneged to remain under Ecbert's exacting control.  It was then that Aethelwulf went out and met her to discuss her vassal status in her big tent and she seduced him.

I don't believe Ragnar fathered Magnus either but I believe, like I said in my other post, that Crazy Pants believed it and wanted it to happen so much her fantasies crossed with reality (and just peeing with sex for that matter) because she was more than a little off.  And I can see everyone down the road still assuming Ragnar is the father no matter his denial because it will suit their purposes and damn the biological facts.

Edited by green
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I agree that Ragnar isn't Magnus' father. There was no reason to lie about it. King Ecbert kept and nurtured Magnus for all those years believing he was Ragnar's son and not knowing if Ragnar was alive or planning to return to England. The kid only had value so long as he had ties to Ragnar. Denying paternity would do more harm than good and Ragnar would be smart enough to know that.

Magnus does look more Viking than Saxon, but Queen Crazy Pants was screwing everyone. It's entirely possible the kid has a Viking father, just that he isn't Ragnar.

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On Thursday, December 22, 2016 at 11:57 PM, rozen said:

Her calm, measured, denunciations of Aslaug as the Evil Witch who Bewitched Her Husband sounds like politics at it's finest. There was literally noting in KW's delivery that makes me thinks Lagertha believes it for a second. Imo, she's simply consolidating power.

Lagertha has to do two things asap 1) establish her stewardship of Kattegat as righteous and 2) establish Bjorn as the as the rightful son of Ragnar. She has to accomplish this while not undercutting Ragnar's judgement, which is essential in validating her family's rule in the first place. Painting Aslaug as an evil conniving witch accomplishes all these things. Ragnar's not responsible because he has been bewitched. Aslaug's sons are not to be trusted because they are witch-born bastards. And do you let a witch leave as she wishes with safe passage? No, you kill her. Calling her a witch over and over again feeds into Aslaug's own smug belief in her "visions" and will revive memories of Harbard who is correlated with misery for a fair-number of the childbearing women of Kattegat. 

I think Lagertha spent so much time angsting in the hills of her earldom because she would have to slander Aslaug's entire legacy to take Kattegat back. The fighting is not what gets to Lagertha, it's always been the politics.

I like this line of reasoning a lot.  It's the only one I've seen that adequately elevates this storyline to more than "you stole my man, you bitch!"  I just wish we'd gotten even a line or two to indicate that's the way Lagertha was going instead of how most viewers seemed to interpret it, as her shooting an unarmed woman who was walking away in the back.

I've never had an opinion either way on whether Magnus was Ragnar's or not.  Crazy Pants said so but she and Ragnar were never explicitly shown having sex, which on this show could mean something or not.  But Ragnar doesn't really have any real reason to lie at this point, I don't think.  Wessex under Ecbert has already swallowed Mercia whole and isn't likely to give it back to some bastard offspring of a crazy dead woman who was summarily rejected as ruler. Throwing in "claims to be unknown son of the baddest of the Viking raiders" isn't going to make him any more appealing to the Mercians as a rallying point.   And Magnus only has value to any Vikings who happen to be about if Ragnar does believe him to be his son and isn't already locked in a cage with no army.  None of the sons have ever met the kid or have any emotional attachment to him, so he's no real leverage there either if and when they show up.

Aethelwulf dumping the poor kid out in the rain to fend for himself was harsh, but I took his line about "there are animals in the villa" as acknowledging that he'll be killed in short order if he stays now that they know he has no value.  He probably won't last long on the outside either, especially not if he follows the advice to claim to be Ragnar's son, but at least Aethelwulf won't have to see it or dirty his hands with it any further.  He's clearly fed up with the whole lot of it.

If Ecbert truly wanted to be the Magnificent Bastard we know he's capable of being, he'd renege on his promise to return Ivar and keep him as insurance against the rest of the sons who will be coming for payback.  History being what it is, though, it's probably a safe bet this will be the big thing Ecbert gets wrong.

Edited by nodorothyparker
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the show Real Vikings that came on after Vikings, they said that history notes that Ivar was pretty much the most feared of all of Ragnar's sons.

And we watchers of this show know why - kid is BSC.  Starting from when he murdered that other kid so long ago.

Magnus is probably the product of Crazy Pants and some unknown Viking warrior.  Remember when she was sizing one up and seemed to be ordering him to her bed chamber?  Or am I remembering some other show?  It was back when Aethelstan was deciding whether or not to go back to Norway with Ragnar, I believe.

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I don't think that Lagertha truly believes that Aslaug bewitched Ragnar. But I do think it's something that the good folk of Kattegat will believe. She was simply stating as much in order to solidify/justify her actions. Considering the long game she played with Kalf, this doesn't surprise me at all.  

And from the shallow end of the pool, I think Ubbe is very pretty and looks a lot like a young Ragnar. Too bad he hasn't lived up to his Viking-ness the way Bjorn and Ragnar (and Ivar) have.  Getting tricked into captivity and then getting his butt kicked. Tsk, tsk.

I live in hope. 

Add me to the list of people who would like Astrid to go away. Not feeling her at all.  

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I was fine with Astrid and with the show's take on Viking's fluidity with sexuality.

Until the Project Runway line.  Hummenah huh?  I still can't tell whether it was the line delivery or just a fucking weird thing for the character to say.  Or both.

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I don't particularly care about her one way or the other.   She doesn't do much for me, but that could also be said about lots of secondary characters.  I just can't tell if other characters are supposed to understand that she's Lagertha's lover and accord her any sort of respect because of that or where exactly they think she fits in the hierarchy.  I mean, when she showed up to threaten? offer to style? Ubbe and Sigurd, did they even know who she was beyond some member of Lagertha's court?

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I also never understood Yidu -- except that one thing I do appreciate is that, at least for Ragnar and, I think for Rollo -- the main characters have been allowed to have off screen lives and lives that grow and change.  Ragnar had his 6 years away that have aged him and he had his time addicted to Chinese Kale or whatever that non-stop supply was that she had under her belt.  Rollo has had time in Normandy that has affected his desire to get on his Viking again.  It's really well done, it is.

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Maybe I'm stretching for a theory, in an effort to make Lagertha make sense, but in light of her actions in this episode, what if the real resentment that she has about Aslaug is that she appears to have ruined Ragnar? Lagertha said Aslaug had taken all that she loved... her man, her throne, her happiness... then "look what you've done with them." Could it be that the inciting incident for Lagertha's long delayed revenge and killing of Aslaug was Ragnar's good-bye tour? Maybe his wish that they'd never left the farm was an acknowledgement to her that he felt destroyed and suicidal, and she read it clearly, knowing him so well. Then seeing the decadence and softness of Kattegat just made it hit home.

Ragnar's purpose was lost, leaving him a shell of her man (the one she knew, loved, and admired), and Kattegat's sense of purpose was also lost. Maybe that one-two combo was what set her wheels in motion. But I'm thinking it was more about Ragnar's inner despair than about Kattegat, and she may blame Aslaug for that, in that she never really got Ragnar, giving him the sounding board and balance that he needed. (Or the battle of equals, when necessary. Heh.) Retaking Kattegat just had the added benefit of securing the throne for Bjorn, who would be an objectively better choice than any of his brothers. 

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I interpreted Aethelwulf tossing Magnus out as Aethelwulf showing the boy tough love and trying to save him from worse at court.  That was the boy who was with Kwentrith when Aethelwulf had fought so hard to save them from the tower prison in that action set piece earlier on.

I am actually not convinced that Magnus isn't Ragnar's son after all. Though beats me what Ragnar was trying to accomplish by denying Magnus.

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16 hours ago, Captanne said:

Was anyone else a little -- taken aback by Astrid's "I want to change your look" comment?  I felt like I was suddenly on Vikings:  Project Runway.  Perhaps it was the way the actress delivered the line?  It was startlingly modern, and I don't mean that in a good way.

Astrid the Brooklyn hairdresser.  That's exactly what I thought when I looked at her.  She's been a terrible addition to the show by Michael Hirst.

I loved the idea of Yidu being from the other side of the world and a culture so foreign to Ragnar but she was another terrible misfire of a character.

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18 hours ago, Mari said:

I've thought it was partly his physical disability and Aslaug defining herself and her place in history through her motherhood.  He was the child almost killed in infancy, who would likely have the roughest time of it in life. ...The more focused she became on Ivar, the less attention she paid the other boys.  Not only would that make her relationship with Ivar stronger, simply because he was her focus,...and just sort of spiraled.

(At least, that's my theory.)

Honestly, that's the most tired theory on Earth for me to be thinking or hearing about and while she had to be both mom and Dad to Ivar from the beginning, she enlisted Floki and Helga for help, too, so I don't think she needed to neglect the other kids. Sure, why wouldn't she be protective, but I'd hope it would be more complex than that.

Obviously, she changed for the long term after Habard, possibly because it ended Auslaug's closeness with Ragnar and maybe Sigurd would blame her for that, too, but Auslaug was all over the place anyway.

Edited by Paradigm14
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This show has gone from merely great to greatness with this episode, and for an encore they're going to kill off the character who made it possible.   Just perfect.   Do actors go to Valhalla?   Fimmel's earned it.

Life After Ragnar doesn't seem very appealing to me.   I like Bjorn, but he's not a leading man.  I don't like Ivar whatsoever, or his brothers.  I'm not jazzed for a show full of supporting actors.   It may work, I suppose.   Spartacus made it work for a season when Andy Whitfield got sick.   Did quite a good job of it too.   But Spartacus was loaded with very interesting and charismatic actors.  Vikings has Fimmel and Roache.  

Aslaug looked disheveled like the booze hound she'd become, voice at an odd pitch, crown askew.   No one should be surprised that Lagertha bided her time to avenge herself.   Recall what happened to Calf (Kalf?)   The Lannisters aren't the only ones who always pay their debts.

I agree with everyone though: Lagertha didn't believe Aslaug was a witch.   A bitch, maybe ...

I wonder if Aslaug will return in dreams and visions.   When Ubbe and Sigurd were talking, one asked "Was she a witch?" and the other said, "We'll never know."   The open-ended question seemed ominous.

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6 hours ago, millennium said:

 

This show has gone from merely great to greatness with this episode, and for an encore they're going to kill off the character who made it possible.   Just perfect.   Do actors go to Valhalla?   Fimmel's earned it.

 

Bravo!

Although I sense a hint of disapproval at the death of Ragnar. I think it's time and true to the course his life would take. He is orchestrating an old Viking king's exit to Valhalla. Richly deserved. (I'd love to know what happened to him on his personal odyssey.....)

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14 hours ago, millennium said:

Life After Ragnar doesn't seem very appealing to me.   I like Bjorn, but he's not a leading man.  I don't like Ivar whatsoever, or his brothers.  I'm not jazzed for a show full of supporting actors.  

Ivar is the future leading man, no question about it. He even does great Ragnar impressions! I do think Bjorn has it, but his part isn't written that way, it's too vanilla. I guess that could change with his quest, but we'll see. Maybe Rollo's got it if he left Normandy, but I can't see that happening. This is a Last Hurrah for him. So Ivar is the torch carrier. And he may eventually take out Lagertha, unless he decides he thinks she does a better job watching Kattegat and he doesn't want to marry anyway.

As far as getting the other boys in line, she could concievably give them lands or some other job to do that makes them happy. It would take work, and some kind of reason to win over Ubbe, though. As a kid, Ubbe was the reasonable one, but the thing that happened here was Lagertha said that Auspaug did a bad job ruling over her lands, but did she? Can that be proven? It looked like she had a few issues, and I certainly didn't love her, but is there something Lagertha could do better besides fight? If she could sell that to them, she's more or less home free.

Also, where'd everyone get an issue with curly hair from? Leave Sigurd alone!

Edited by Paradigm14
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8 hours ago, Captanne said:

This show has gone from merely great to greatness with this episode, and for an encore they're going to kill off the character who made it possible.   Just perfect.   Do actors go to Valhalla?   Fimmel's earned it.

They didn't have much choice as Travis Fimmel wanted to leave from what I understand.  I prefer what's most likely coming next episode to them trying to recast Ragnar.  I wouldn't want to see anybody else playing Ragnar.

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On 12/23/2016 at 8:56 AM, Captanne said:

ETA:  Anyone who has seen the Godfather knows a horse's head is usually unwelcome (especially in the bed with you) but I'm not sure that tracks with what we saw in Auslaug's Viking funeral.  The horse that was beheaded and sent with her to Valhalla was more of a ritual sacrifice, wasn't it?  That didn't look at all derogatory.  The entire sequence of funeral preparation and enactment seemed very, very reverential.

BTW, A quick Google search gives a lot of examples of horses included in Viking funerals.

I did find this, however.  

Nidstang (Nithing Pole)

Horses mean something very different in America (for instance the French eat horse meat)...I was shocked but the real Vikings mentioned sacrificing horses.

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1 hour ago, SingleMaltBlonde said:

Horses mean something very different in America (for instance the French eat horse meat)...I was shocked but the real Vikings mentioned sacrificing horses.

They sacrificed people to go into the graves with high ranking Vikings so horses wouldn't be a biggie. Just saying...

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On 12/24/2016 at 5:18 AM, millennium said:

This show has gone from merely great to greatness with this episode, and for an encore they're going to kill off the character who made it possible.   Just perfect.   Do actors go to Valhalla?   Fimmel's earned it.

Life After Ragnar doesn't seem very appealing to me.   I like Bjorn, but he's not a leading man.  I don't like Ivar whatsoever, or his brothers.  I'm not jazzed for a show full of supporting actors.   It may work, I suppose.   Spartacus made it work for a season when Andy Whitfield got sick.   Did quite a good job of it too.   But Spartacus was loaded with very interesting and charismatic actors.  Vikings has Fimmel and Roache.  

Aslaug looked disheveled like the booze hound she'd become, voice at an odd pitch, crown askew.   No one should be surprised that Lagertha bided her time to avenge herself.   Recall what happened to Calf (Kalf?)   The Lannisters aren't the only ones who always pay their debts.

I agree with everyone though: Lagertha didn't believe Aslaug was a witch.   A bitch, maybe ...

I wonder if Aslaug will return in dreams and visions.   When Ubbe and Sigurd were talking, one asked "Was she a witch?" and the other said, "We'll never know."   The open-ended question seemed ominous.

I'm with you on that one. I have loved this show since it's first episode, loved everything about it, and this last episode bored me to death. The only part I enjoyed was King Eckbert and Ragnar together. That was pure gold, whenever they get together they are fantastic.  I suppose he could have killed him outright at any time, but looks like they will be following history and pawning Ragnar off on Aella.  

Spoiler

Not looking forward to the snake pit--but I do hope the boys get their revenge on Aella like history has said. I like a good blood eagling. :) (Jarl Borg's death was the most powerful, horrible and beautiful thing on Vikings and I still have bad dreams about it--it gutted me--I was RIGHT THERE, felt the blows, imagined the lungs fluttering...wow, still gets me in a freaky scary way)

I hate Astrid. Hate, hate, hate--"I want to change your look," what the hell? She's like Yidu last year--takes me right out of the time period and plunks me into the 70s again with the butch hair that is far, far too modern. What the hell is Hirst thinking--has he lost it?  

I don't know how I feel about Lagertha killing Aslaug, though I've hated the actress and her portrayal of Aslaug, that's just because I truly thought the chemistry between Travis Fimmel and the woman who plays Lagertha was perfect--a blend of passion, anger, and good rollicking fun. Ragnar never appeared to like Aslaug, though she was a means to an end.  I do think that the safe passage she gave her was a Viking death--because Aslaug was not a warrior--she made babies and drank. So, she gets to go to Valhalla and live on, if you believe in that.  Maybe Harbard will be there.  It just didn't seem in character for Lagertha to be all that she is, an Earl, a warrior, and just prance back to Katteget and take back the throne--she hasn't been there in many years, so why now when Ragnar's sons are grown? Except that now, Ragnar's sons are grown...and that doesn't bode well for Lagertha in the future.

I'm so disappointed with this year so far. I'm not at all invested in the younger Ragnarsons at all-except Ivar, I think the actor is brilliant in how he plays him. The other boys seem more like boys than threats of any kind--too busy with rutting and making braids. :(  See, I'm not happy. I don't have any more insight into this season than that--I love the demented little leprechaun Floki and his lovely Helga, but the other characters are all dead now, or about to be. 

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I'm not sure why Hirst decided now would be the appropriate time for Lagertha to try to take back Kattegat; that's the only thing that really struck me as odd. I get that she would want her old home back- she lived there all her life, farmed the land, defended it in battle, brought back spoils during raids, and eventually governed it as the Jarl's wife. Those truly were her people, almost completely independent of Ragnar. So it didn't seem weird to me that when Lagertha called an end to the fighting the warriors of Kattegat were like "oh hey girl, I'm so happy to see you're back!" even though her people were just battling them. Lagertha was born a poor farmer, became a respected shieldmaiden, then ruled them successfully and peacefully for years. Unlike the spoiled princess who rose by other means (socially valid, don't get me wrong, but less respected by the Vikings), always seemed miserable in Kattegat, had to be dragged crying to safety by Siggy during an attack, never seemed to have much concern for her people or to be particularly close to any of them, and was known to have a too-close relationship with Harbard and Ivar.

And Lagertha is a big believer in revenge and I could see her believing that Aslaug knew what was to come when she met Ragnar; Aslaug often boasts of her psychic ability and Lagertha is a big believer in seers and their ability to see what will happen. I don't think she believes what she said, though, that Aslaug is a witch who "stole" Ragnar- and I doubt it's a coincidence that Lagertha's version of events is identical to what Sigurd's was when he asked his mother if she ever loved Ragnar or if she bewitched him as "some say". As in there are people in Kattegat who believe that Aslaug was a witch who used magic to ensnare Ragnar. Lagertha was able to utilize that distrust (as well as her more cultivated relationships with the people of Kattegat, like Torvi, whose son she kept safe and helped raise).

As for Lagertha granting Aslaug safe passage and then shooting her in the back. Eh. We've watched the vikings sneak up behind people and kill them all the time, kill people who've surrendered, etc. Nothing about that was unusual. And I didn't get that Lagertha granted Aslaug safe passage, she said "I understand" as in "I get what you're saying, what you're threatening", not "you have my word" or anything. Aslaug was not going to just walk away from it all. She had no other options, nowhere to turn. She was going to find her sons and come back. So Lagertha ended it.

I do agree that they're preparing to clear the deck and this is the beginning of the end for Lagertha. The seer prophesied that a trickster would cleave her- Ivar maybe. Given that they haven't really set up any interesting new female characters for the rest of the series, only male characters almost none of whom I find very interesting, this will probably be my last season. Once Lagertha's dead I'm out.

Edited by slf
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1 hour ago, slf said:

I do agree that they're preparing to clear the deck and this is the beginning of the end for Lagertha. The seer prophesied that a trickster would cleave her- Ivar maybe. Given that they haven't really set up any interesting new female characters for the rest of the series, only male characters almost none of whom I find very interesting, this will probably be my last season. Once Lagertha's dead I'm out.

Could it be that "the trickster to cleave her" is Astrid?  Continuing her bad luck with all her lovers?

I do think Ivar is the most logical one to kill Lagertha, but I don't see him as a trickster figure.

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2 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Could it be that "the trickster to cleave her" is Astrid?  Continuing her bad luck with all her lovers?

I do think Ivar is the most logical one to kill Lagertha, but I don't see him as a trickster figure.

It seems like the Trickster would be Ivar. I don't know what else he would be at this point as he's not yet a seasoned warrior. If Astrid wanted to kill Lagertha, why would she wait?

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slf/ great post!  I'm not out, though.  I'll be around for the series after Ragnar is gone.  I think it's been set up so well that I'll (at least?) give it a good go.  I'm feeling very upbeat about the whole prospect.  

The Old Guard has to move on -- perhaps Lagertha saw her opportunity when old, beaten, and weathered Ragnar returned from six mysterious years away. The first thing he did was bugger off to orchestrate his own spectacular (he hopes) death.  She may see this as her opportunity to take over Kattegat and reign until it's her time to go.  (Old soldiers never die -- they just fade away.  Unless they do something proactive to make it a real event.)  I mean, she's had six years to stew while watching Auslaug rule Kattegat.  That would get under anyone's skin.  She's ambitious herself, strong, and powerful in her own right so why not go for the top while she can?  Add to it, she is still in love with Ragnar (as we were told point blank in their "farewell" scene) so killing Auslaug would not be outside of her wheelhouse.

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15 hours ago, Paradigm14 said:

It seems like the Trickster would be Ivar. I don't know what else he would be at this point as he's not yet a seasoned warrior. If Astrid wanted to kill Lagertha, why would she wait?

Ivar is not a trickster figure in the least.  He was shown straight out warrior in that test versus his brothers.  Besides he will be more interested in revenging his father, not his mother, at this point.  Kattegat means nothing to him after his bonding trip with daddy.  Just a guess:  Lagertha will probably help raise that army to send the boys away and also to avenge Ragnar as well.  Maybe she will even go with them though I doubt it.

Spoiler

And history tells us Ivar raises and leads the Heathen Army and then stays in England and Ireland from then on.  He will have no interest in ruling Kattegat. 

Astrid is slimy though I don't know she is a trickster.  And she can't rule Kattegat herself if she killed Lagertha now because the people would kill her immediately.  She has zero creds with anyone.  And I doubt she could get a better deal as chief lieutenant with the inept duo of Ubbe/Sigurd  with just the offer of a free make-over for them.

But we already have the one trickster in the show already and always have in Loki aka Floki.  I still say Bjorn comes back from the Med first which will take until next season for sure given how long his first voyage is and how many years it takes to raid in that area.  So Floki wouldn't be back until that time as well.  And there is no real storyline set-up to make Floki upset enough to do in Lagertha.  I see no reason her character won't be around into Season 5 barring the actor wanting out or something weird like that.  And since Season 5 is already in the can since they film in the summer I think it is safe to say Lagertha will survive season 4 fine. 

They are going to ease out the older generation; not do a mass slaughter of them all at once.  The latter would make no pragmatic sense for the show and it's ratings.  Hirst knows that Lagertha is wildly popular on this show and he isn't going to get rid of both her and Ragnar on the same season.  There has been no foreshadowing or build-up at all and the remaining few episodes -- only 6 left -- will have to be filled with Ragnar and his aftermath with a really strong focus on Ivar as a leading role now as well as Bourn et al finally getting on with the very first part of his long, multi-year raiding in the Med area.

Again Hirst isn't going to kill off a super major asset like Lagertha as some quick after thought.  He will give her a slow, dramatic build to a magnificent exit.  He does know how to put on a show after all. 

That is aside from his recent spate of weird secondary characters he has been throwing in out of nowhere like the Chinese woman that never ever fit only topped by Astrid the Modern Day Idiotic.  But at least they are secondaries and hopefully he will kill off Astrid sooner than later.  He won't off a main historic character with no major build-up first.  And there isn't any real foreshadowing as of yet let alone a build up.

Edited by green
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3 minutes ago, green said:

Ivar is not a trickster figure in the least.  He was shown straight out warrior in that test versus his brothers.  Besides he will be more interested in revenging his father, not his mother, at this point.  Kattegat means nothing to him after his bonding trip with daddy.  Just a guess:  Lagertha will probably help raise that army to send the boys away and also to avenge Ragnar as well.  Maybe she will even go with them though I doubt it.

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And history tells us Ivar raises and leads the Heathen Army and then stays in England and Ireland from then on.  He will have no interest in ruling Kattegat. 

 

I would say at this point, Ivar is a trickster. He is always playing games with the people around him, game of control. A "straight up warrior" is not going to ask question like "Not even me?" when Sigurs is asked who he is afraid of.
He finds little ways to mess with all of his brothers. He also shows ingenuity with his efforts to have crutches and braces for fighting. 

I think we'll see more of this as time goes on. As for your prediction, I don't think they'll be that close to history.

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It has been said many times already, but i'll just chip in again and say how great the scenes with Ragnar and King Ecbert were in this episode. Such good acting all round, the casting on this is absolutely incredible. 

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Travis Fimmel is fantastic at working his physicality; I actually rewound the scene where Ragnar unfolds himself from the cage - glaring at Ecbert the whole way - and then collapses on the floor.  So magnetic to watch, bravo to TF!  I wonder if Ragnar lied about Magnus because he thought Ivar might kill him?  I'm not sure what to make of all that but I didn't follow the season prior to this too closely.

I don't post here much but have found this season pretty compelling.  Assuming we're seeing the end of Ragnar soon, I am very interested in both Bjorn and Ivar - Ivar especially I find fascinating, and I'm curious how close they will adhere to his history.    I've always liked Lagertha but have to roll my eyes a bit at Ragnar more or less getting a free pass for dumping her to get more sons and Aslaug paying the full price - she's not the one who betrayed Lagertha after all.  I would rather the show just went straight up that Lagertha wanted to expand her reach and rule Kattegat again - that's what Vikings do.  I do think that Ubbe reminded her of Ragnar when he was lying on the floor glaring at her. 

I could have sworn I read in an interview with Alyssa Sutherland that originally the show wanted to have Aslaug fight Lagertha and she was strongly against it, but I can't find it now.  The way it went down was better I think.  There are some good interviews out there with her where she says she was playing up the Ivar relationship as strange; from what I've read she did give a lot of thought to the character.  Aslaug did want to be a queen but also wanted a king by her side - she wasn't prepared for a true Viking lifestyle and Ragnar only wanted more sons; thus the bitterness and anger she had with the separation.  I agree with those who've said she was satisfied with her place in history, knew Lagertha was going to kill her, got her last digs in and walked away expecting death.

Excellent episode. 

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On 12/23/2016 at 1:58 PM, Ocean Chick said:

And we watchers of this show know why - kid is BSC.  Starting from when he murdered that other kid so long ago.

Magnus is probably the product of Crazy Pants and some unknown Viking warrior.  Remember when she was sizing one up and seemed to be ordering him to her bed chamber?  Or am I remembering some other show?  It was back when Aethelstan was deciding whether or not to go back to Norway with Ragnar, I believe.

You're remembering right.  She was touching their "business" and would smile when she felt one that pleased her.  The woman was crazy as a bat and horny as a toad.

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